Joe and His PGs

[Murph]

So Joe passes on 3...count em...3 NCAA Champion PGs in the draft (ok Burke was a runner up), presumably because they were all too small (6'0 - 6'1).  So what does he do?  He goes out and trades for a 6'1 PG, who's never won anything.  Does this make ANY sense?


And Joe...here's a hint.  Stop doing business with "your pal", John Hammond.  He's not doing you any favors.  He keeps dumping his trash on you (CV and Jennings) for you to sign to lousy contracts.  

I mean, no one wanted Jennings.  He had recieved no free agent offers.  Joe just bid against himself...again...for the services of Jennings, in a sign and trade.


I mean, didn't the Pistons just hire some cyber-metrics guy to analize NBA statistics???  On what planet does Brandon Jennings have any stats that any cyber-metrics guy would approve of?  

Ok...that's my last rant of the day. Please carry on.

[Murph]

Okay you all know I'm sitting here cracking up:lol): I've been saying since mid season that Joe would pull off a trade of either Knight and Monroe over the summer because Joe loss confidence in Knight and he's still concerned Monroe might have peaked.

Okay before you all blast this move Jennings will become a lot better PG with Cheeks on the sideline and Billups in his ears on the sideline.   This is one the Bold Moves Joe needed to make 1. Signing Cheeks 2. Signing Josh Smith 3. Pick up Jennings via trade.  

Say what you want but a starting 5 of Jennings, Stuckey, Smith, Monroe and Drummond isn't bad at all.  

Wise, if it were me, I'd go with:

Billups
Stuckey
Smith
Monroe
Drummond

With a second unit of:

Jennings
Caldwell-Pope
Luigi/Singler
Jerebko/Mitchell
???

And this way, Jennings could come in and chuck to his hearts content on the 2nd unit.

[WTF]

I think Mitchell/Siva showed enough in SL that made both Knight and Middleton expendable. Siva long term will likely be a lot better than Knight, truthfully before Jennings deal is up Siva may also be better than Jennings. Now the resigning of Bynum almost makes more sense to me as Siva will likely play games overseas will be looking at a rotation of Stuckey, Jennings, Chauncey, Pope and Bynum.

As for the front-court I think Mitchell was a steal in the draft, I was completely sold on him after watching him in SL and can see him backing up Josh Smith at SF or PF and that should concern Monroe. Currently we have Monroe, Drummond, Smith, Charlie, JJ, Mitchell and Singler but I can see a move coming that could involve JJ and Singler for a veteran center that will complete the roster.

GO JOE! I won't be bashing Joe this season  

[Oracle]

Jennings is a very streaky shooter, but as much as I like Knight, I have to admit that at this point, he's a real upgrade.

He's not much better than Knight from deep, but he's probably more clutch from deep, a lot like Chauncey in that respect.

Also he attacks the basket much better than Knight, and while he has trouble finishing, he's also better at reading opposing defenses and making the right pass!

More importantly, he's more capable of running an offense than Knight is at this stage!

But the thing that JUMPS out at me is that he's a "Go To" guard! In the fading moments, he can either get his shot off or cause enough trouble to ensure that another player gets a good shot, something BK7 was incapable of doing due to poor handles!

I'm going to have to reluctantly approve this move because IMO, Joe has decided to roll the dice and go out shooting, because this is risky! Even though it's risky, it's high reward if Cheeks & CB can help Jennings grow! I like Joe taking chances, i.e. calculated risks, but as always, he's SLOPPY and crude in the way he handles these situations.

For Knight, this is a good opportunity! He goes to a Buck team that will need him to do what he does best from the PG position... SCORE!!!!

The Bucks appear to be going nowhere, but in that environment, Knight will have the opportunity to showcase his talents in time to come off of his rookie contract!

Between Knight & O.J. Mayo, they should have enough scoring to keep some games close before losing, but really fill up the stat sheet! Knight wasn't going to get the green light too much with the big 3 and KCP on the floor, with the Bucks, they will encourage him to shoot it whenever he want to, and that's a prescription for getting better!

Knight will get the opportunity to grow into the PG position, something he wasn't going to get here, so after he gets over the lies Joe told him and the crummy & sloppy way Joe handles his business, he'll be glad this happened!

[Phil-Good]

[quote="Oracle"]If you start Jennings, you now have 4 players that can't shoot, and one KCP, that we HOPE can shoot, but we aren't sure yet!

WTF is Joe thinking????

Oracle. Jennings is A 3-bomb shooter. And the kid also has A nice mid-range game. He also has A hell of A shot off the dribble. We just have to get him to be more of A Point Guard and less of A me first guard. That's Jennings biggest issue!!

But the kid can shoot the rock. I use him on 2K. He can shoot!!

Now we need A 2 guard with star power and we should be A interesting team.

[WTF]

Say what you want but a starting 5 of Jennings, Stuckey, Smith, Monroe and Drummond isn't bad at all.

Wise, who do you think will shoot above 42% from beyond 15 feet first, Smith, Stuckey, or Jennings?  

DX, I think the notion that we shot horribly from the perimeter is over exaggerated. The team was (slightly above average) But if I had to really give answer to that question then I'll say none of the above. What I will say is this that
Pope, CV, and Singler will benefit greatly with CB are likely the guys we use to stretch the defenses.

For everything wrong you can find in that line up you can find 2 things right with it. I predict when it's all said and done this team will be somewhere in between the 89-90 Pistons and 2004 Pistons.

[deusXango]

Say what you want but a starting 5 of Jennings, Stuckey, Smith, Monroe and Drummond isn't bad at all.

Wise, who do you think will shoot above 42% from beyond 15 feet first, Smith, Stuckey, or Jennings?  

[WTF]

Okay you all know I'm sitting here cracking up:lol): I've been saying since mid season that Joe would pull off a trade of either Knight and Monroe over the summer because Joe loss confidence in Knight and he's still concerned Monroe might have peaked.

Okay before you all blast this move Jennings will become a lot better PG with Cheeks on the sideline and Billups in his ears on the sideline. This is one the Bold Moves Joe needed to make 1. Signing Cheeks 2. Signing Josh Smith 3. Pick up Jennings via trade.

Say what you want but a starting 5 of Jennings, Stuckey, Smith, Monroe and Drummond isn't bad at all.

[Sparma]

Murph, I'm thinking of Siva more like the proverbial straw, rather than anything like the centerpiece.  A relatively minor consideration may have become crucial just at the right time.  I could be all wrong. I thought they'd try to find a spot for Siva, but didn't foresee it happening this way.  There seemed to be likelier ways, something involving Stuck or CV.  

I think Milwaukee got the better of the trade when you look at the talent exchange, but it's still understandable under the circumstances.

Going back far enough, I wouldn't have traded Gordon.  Amnestying him and building slowly seemed like the way to go, using assets to make a one-sided trade.

But they didn't go that way.

Once they made the Gordon trade and decided to go for it this year, I would have drafted Burke or MCW and tried to keep Calderon (30 mil for 4 years?).  In addition, I'd have amnestied CV (accounting for the ability to sign JC) and signed Smith (if that sequence could have worked).  Then, if you'd want to consider a Knight, Kravtsov, Middleton package, along with a significant salary like CV or Stuckey's, it would seem you could land a heck of a shooting guard.

Again, they went a different direction.  Up to this point, a Jennings trade have not have made sense to me.

If Smith hadn't signed, I'd still make a pitch for going all in with rebuilding, either earning a top 8 pick in a rich draft next year or accepting the lost pick as sunk cost.

But Smith did sign.  Only then, under those circumstances of going all in this year, does it make some sense to me to make the big gamble on Jennings, partly because it's hard to see minutes for Kravtsov with the crowded big man situation, partly because I'd worry that Knight with his 1.5 assists per T.O. couldn't handle the Big Man talent, partly because Jennings more than replaces Knight (with a significantly better assist to T.O. his first 2 seasons as well as, of course, beyond), partly because I'm looking to add a different kind of PG in Siva than is on the roster.  If those perspectives make some sense, it's the loss of Middleton that really gives pause.

Now the combination of the Stuckey and CV contracts enables one more big move, either a trade, or a pitch to a good free agent next summer made by a flourishing team.  And that draft pick won't hurt nearly so much in the 15-20 range as in the 9-14 range.

In sum, I think Dumars and Gores got off the right path a long time ago by giving up a 1st rounder to jettison Gordon instead of amnestying, but once they did, there's coherence to several of the things they've done recently.  Not drafting a top PG prospect's the big question for me among recent moves, but once they didn't do that, the Jennings deal becomes defensible even though it's really questionable as a talent exchange, taken in isolation.

And I'm so glad they didn't trade Monroe for Rondo.  You'd need a super deal to give him up.  My 2 cents.

[Go Stones!]

Joe sees something in Jennings he did NOT see in Knight and probably saw in Billups. He is a steal at his talent level. He turned Knight (2nd string) into a starting pro and future all-star PG. AND...he still has the 2 expiring contracts that he could turn into Granger, Gay or Deng or someone else. This would provide further star power and added depth.

PG - Jennings, Billups, Bynum, Silva
SG - Billups, KCP (most likely will reverse mid-season as Billups eyes the front office)
SF - Smith, Singler
PF - Monroe, JJ, CV, rook
C - Drummond, Monroe

I'm still not thinking he is done yet either. Be patient and trust!

[Oracle]

If you start Jennings, you now have 4 players that can't shoot, and one KCP, that we HOPE can shoot, but we aren't sure yet!

WTF is Joe thinking????

Teams can now REALLY pack the paint because nobody is a threat to shoot!

Maybe the frontcourt can hide Jennings on defense, but it may come at a price!

I hope this works out because I'm a Piston fan, but this is going to be a struggle to get both Smith & Jennings to fall out of love with their long 2 point bricks in the same season!

EDIT: More proof that Joe knew about this for a while - Last weekend at the Drew League, Brandon Jennings hinted at his future with the Pistons

[cool breeze]

"The Detroit Pistons just reportedly pulled off a sign-and-trade to acquire Milwaukee Bucks point guard Brandon Jennings. On paper, the Pistons certainly got better. Jennings is certainly a good player with talent and an upgrade over Brandon Knight. However, there are a few reasons why this move was not smart and will set the Pistons back instead of moving them forward.

There is a reason Jennings had not yet been signed to an offer sheet by any team out there, and still the Bucks were eager to get rid of him. The reason being, in many ways Brandon Jennings hurts your team more than he helps it. Sure, his numbers look pretty good (17.5PPG, 6.5 APG), but upon further inspection, Jennings is oftentimes more of a negative than a positive.

One is defensively. At a listed height and weight of 6-foot-1 and 169 pounds, and he’s probably even smaller than that. Jennings is an extremely undersized NBA player. He really can’t defend any position effectively, even his own, where the average NBA point guard has him by about 25 pounds and three inches. This is likely around the size Jennings will be for the remainder of his career, meaning on defense he will always be a liability.

Two, Brandon Jennings takes a lot of bad shots. He isn’t a very good shooter, yet he has a shoot-first mentality. This is a recipe for disaster that is evident in his career shooting numbers of 39 percent from the field and 35 percent from three-point range. He was even worse in the playoffs last year, shooting a putrid 30 percent from the field and 21 percent from three while only dishing out four assists. He isn’t a good finisher around the rim, and due to his lack of height he often resorts to fading away on his jump shots. The Pistons’ future is in their promising young big men Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond, but Jennings will hinder their development by continuing to hoist up these bad shots. Add the fact that the Pistons already signed a talented player with a questionable shot selection in Josh Smith, and it looks like Drummond and Monroe’s touches are going to be even more limited.
So the Pistons just committed $24 million to a guy who may end up hurting them more than he helps. The deal looks good on paper, but Brandon Jennings’ tenure with the Pistons may turn out to be an air ball." - Detroit Pistons Make Mistake in Trading for Brandon Jennings

This says it all Oracle. Unless Dumars can now trade Jennings for Rondo even with his bad knee, he has doomed the Pistons once again.

[Oracle]

"The Pistons had been sniffing around for point guards recently, despite the signings of Will Bynum and Chauncey Billups. Pistons president Joe Dumars publicly denied interest in Jennings after Billups’ news conference, but apparently was fond of Jennings all along." - Pistons to get Brandon Jennings from Bucks in sign-and-trade for Brandon Knight, two others

Why was Joe fond of Jennings?

Well, he reminded him of AI... without the talent!

[cool breeze]

Detroit trades a college honor student who has a long history of knocking down barriers to improve himself through hard work for a guy who couldn't qualify to go to college in Jennings because he had no discipline. That is right if some of you don't have the facts yet. Jennings could not qualify to play at Arizona and went to Europe out of high school. In the matchups between Knight and Jennings, only the first meeting of the two went Jennings way at least that is my memory of it. Knight has become a solid defender and Jennings is not a good defender. Once again, Dumars has decided that defense is not important. I see Jennings as a guy who will be sitting on the bench a lot because of injuries. I really was impressed with him in his first season with the Bucks but his game has not improved since. But Jennings is quick and runs the floor well. Still, this is a big blow for me because Knight was a guy I was always pulling for and now I will have to watch his career with another team. Bynum was not part of this trade according to what fans are saying. Who will be able to stop an opposing guard this season Joe? Maybe now that Daye is under contract, Dumars will try to work out a trade for him as well. Maybe if there are enough injuries, Cheeks will be forced to play Bynum and Jennings together and then Dumars will be run out of town.

[Murph]

Oracle, I'm inclined to think that Siva may have been the tipping point in Joe's willingness to make the deal, as you seem to suggest.  That sounds incredible, but I suppose his being on the roster needs to be considered in the balance while weighing the trade.

Sparma...if that's the case, wouldn't have it been easier to just cut Middleton or Kravstov (or amnesty Charlie V) in order to make room for Siva, than to take on Jennings at 3 years and $24 million?

Oracle...I agree. I think Bynum or Stuckey might be better choices to start than Jennings. Let's hope C-Bill stays healthy.

[Oracle]

I gotta tell ya.  I'm not loving this trade.  

For one thing, if you go to 82games.com and look up the Bucks, Brandon Jennings had insanely bad +/- numbers last year.

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213MIL.HTM

I hope that's some kind of statistical aberration, but that's not likely.



We should have drafted Trey Burke...or Kemba Walker...or Ty Lawson.  

Murph, I totally agree!

Ok, I could live with a trade of Knight, but for Jennings? That's a mind blower!

If this was the direction then drafting Burke should have been a no brainer!

IMO, there has to be something else going on!

I remember the articles saying that Knight shouldn't get down about people saying he's not a PG, and just go out there and show them.

I think Knight didn't take all of the talk and lack of faith in him too well and Joe panicked, because this deal makes absolutely no sense on a team looking for more shooting in the starting lineup!

Jennings has the rep of a star without one ounce of the real facts to back it up!

Hell, I'd rather start Will Bynum or Rodney Stuckey than Jennings!

[Sparma]

Oracle, I'm inclined to think that Siva may have been the tipping point in Joe's willingness to make the deal, as you seem to suggest. That sounds incredible, but I suppose his being on the roster needs to be considered in the balance while weighing the trade.

Does this make any sense?: the one advantage of putting a bunch of overeager shooters together is that they can't all pull off that stunt at the same time. At least, that's been my experience at my level of play. I'd need to check the numbers, but it seems like Bynum became more disciplined in his shooting last year. That would leave Smith and Jennings as the volume shooters on the first unit, unless Stuckey squeezes in.

I'm struggling to see how all the pieces of the puzzle will fit. At the same time, just before Smith signed it looked like the team was going to be limited to minor deals, rendering that 1st rounder to Charlotte to gain a year a total waste. Now at least Dumars and Gores (!) have managed to make it into an intriguing mix, exciting if also bewildering. I'll take that over where it looks things were headed just before Smith signed.

[Murph]

I gotta tell ya. I'm not loving this trade.

For one thing, if you go to 82games.com and look up the Bucks, Brandon Jennings had insanely bad +/- numbers last year.

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213MIL.HTM

I hope that's some kind of statistical aberration, but that's not likely.



We should have drafted Trey Burke...or Kemba Walker...or Ty Lawson.

[Oracle]

Well, at least until Joe Dumars came along!



BTW, listen to this:  Fox Sports


More news: Report: Austin Daye agrees to two-year deal with Raptors

[Oracle]

"The Detroit Pistons just reportedly pulled off a sign-and-trade to acquire Milwaukee Bucks point guard Brandon Jennings. On paper, the Pistons certainly got better. Jennings is certainly a good player with talent and an upgrade over Brandon Knight. However, there are a few reasons why this move was not smart and will set the Pistons back instead of moving them forward.

There is a reason Jennings had not yet been signed to an offer sheet by any team out there, and still the Bucks were eager to get rid of him. The reason being, in many ways Brandon Jennings hurts your team more than he helps it. Sure, his numbers look pretty good (17.5PPG, 6.5 APG), but upon further inspection, Jennings is oftentimes more of a negative than a positive.

One is defensively. At a listed height and weight of 6-foot-1 and 169 pounds, and he’s probably even smaller than that. Jennings is an extremely undersized NBA player. He really can’t defend any position effectively, even his own, where the average NBA point guard has him by about 25 pounds and three inches. This is likely around the size Jennings will be for the remainder of his career, meaning on defense he will always be a liability.

Two, Brandon Jennings takes a lot of bad shots. He isn’t a very good shooter, yet he has a shoot-first mentality. This is a recipe for disaster that is evident in his career shooting numbers of 39 percent from the field and 35 percent from three-point range. He was even worse in the playoffs last year, shooting a putrid 30 percent from the field and 21 percent from three while only dishing out four assists. He isn’t a good finisher around the rim, and due to his lack of height he often resorts to fading away on his jump shots. The Pistons’ future is in their promising young big men Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond, but Jennings will hinder their development by continuing to hoist up these bad shots. Add the fact that the Pistons already signed a talented player with a questionable shot selection in Josh Smith, and it looks like Drummond and Monroe’s touches are going to be even more limited.
So the Pistons just committed $24 million to a guy who may end up hurting them more than he helps. The deal looks good on paper, but Brandon Jennings’ tenure with the Pistons may turn out to be an air ball." - Detroit Pistons Make Mistake in Trading for Brandon Jennings

[Oracle]

Joe's not holding anything back.  Even though I wasn't keen on Knight's prospects as a top PG, it will be interesting to see which Brandon has the better career from here on in (BK should be good as 6th man).  Middleton really seemed to be coming on as a solid rotation guy.  And I liked Kravtsov, if only because of his size.  Seems like a lot of young talent to give up, so there's a whiff of desperation.  Dumars looked like a patient architect the first time around; after years of near inactivity he suddenly emerges as a reckless gambler.  Hard to see how it's all going to jell, but I like our chances more this year than I have for years.  At least we're not an irrelevant franchise as nearly was our longterm fate.  Interesting stuff.  And Siva gets his shot!

Sparma, IMO, Siva drove the deal with his summer league performance!

In Jennings Joe gets his reckless PG, but also keeps his possession PG in Siva!

[Oracle]

Yikes!!!

Joe is either incredibly smart or incredibly stupid!

I'll say this... I do like Jennings game better, but on balance, this makes no sense!

Knight, Slava AND Middleton? Jennings isn't hardly worth that much, IMO!

I've been behind Joe all the way, but this kind of reeks of the Afflalo move!

[Sparma]

Joe's not holding anything back. Even though I wasn't keen on Knight's prospects as a top PG, it will be interesting to see which Brandon has the better career from here on in (BK should be good as 6th man). Middleton really seemed to be coming on as a solid rotation guy. And I liked Kravtsov, if only because of his size. Seems like a lot of young talent to give up, so there's a whiff of desperation. Dumars looked like a patient architect the first time around; after years of near inactivity he suddenly emerges as a reckless gambler. Hard to see how it's all going to jell, but I like our chances more this year than I have for years. At least we're not an irrelevant franchise as nearly was our longterm fate. Interesting stuff. And Siva gets his shot!

[Sebastian]

Looks like: B. Knight, Middleton, and the Ukraine for B. Jennings.

http://www.pistonpowered.com/2013/07/pistons-near-sign-and-trade-for-brandon-jennings-who-will-receive-three-year-24-million-contract/#comments

[Sebastian]

What the hell?!?!?!?

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/229192/Pistons-Acquire-Brandon-Jennings-In-Sign-And-Trade

Joe and Hammonds were surely talking more than about dogs about three weeks ago, when the cat got out of the bag concerning this sign-and-trade proposition.

I have yet to read, who are involved in the package. But, I would doubt that there will be two Brandon on the roster.

But, Jennings is a young point guard, who can get his and some more.

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