Some might call it wasting time - But I won't!

[Oracle]

I checked on how much height shoes add to our combine heroes. Here's what I came up with (feel free to doublecheck!). I've listed the six different thicknesses, along with the number of players in each category.

+ .75": 2
+ 1": 13
+ 1.25": 23
+ 1.50": 16
+ 1.75": 4
+ 2": 4.

If I learned anything at all, it's what I suspected: the thickness of basketball shoes varies significantly. I'd recommend making the measurement without shoes the standard point of reference (in agreement with Merc!).

Beyond that, there's probably not much info to be gleaned here, except maybe in the outliers. I'm guessing that it's no coincidence that Paul Pressey, 5'9" shoeless, is among the four (out of 62) to use soles 2 inches thick.

That is all.

The silly reason that folks give for making the shoe measurement is that they play the games in shoes!

But after this exercise, I have to agree with you and Merc, this is stupid! Just take the bare foot height and be done with it!

They might want to regulate shoe padding, because 2" sounds like a mild form of cheating(I don't want to be to strong with that word).

[Sparma]

I checked on how much height shoes add to our combine heroes. Here's what I came up with (feel free to doublecheck!). I've listed the six different thicknesses, along with the number of players in each category.

+ .75": 2
+ 1": 13
+ 1.25": 23
+ 1.50": 16
+ 1.75": 4
+ 2": 4.

If I learned anything at all, it's what I suspected: the thickness of basketball shoes varies significantly. I'd recommend making the measurement without shoes the standard point of reference (in agreement with Merc!).

Beyond that, there's probably not much info to be gleaned here, except maybe in the outliers. I'm guessing that it's no coincidence that Paul Pressey, 5'9" shoeless, is among the four (out of 62) to use soles 2 inches thick.

That is all.

[merc]

Right on Oracle... anyone here not steal something?... the bigger question is did you learn and grow... the worst thing that can happen is not being caught (or gambling and winning once).

Sparma, I like your comments on the combine results... they should simply go with the Euro way of everyone being measured in their barefeet (no pumped up kicks)... there are so many players that scored poorly at the combine that proved to be solid players in the association... one that comes to mind is Caron Butler... his shuttle/quickness time was awful... these drills should not override a full year of proving your worth on the court.... if you wanna get a cheap kick go to Draft Express and do a sort on the tallest & fastest players ever at the combines... I challenge anyone to remember these names.

[Sparma]

The quirky thing that stood out to me is the variation in how much difference the shoes makes. It's extremely doubtful that .5 inch Burke gains will make any difference on the basketball court. Still, I'll confess it bugs me that they have a valuable measure (shoeless) yet but they add one that's subject to variability and manipulation. Oh well, extra info maybe. Does that added .5 inch tell us anything about Burke?

That aside, Cool, I certainly wouldn't want to base a draft choice primarily on combine stats. But that doesn't mean they're meaningless. Of course, there's an ongoing debate about this on the football front. 40 times often are overemphasized, but they can make a difference; how much you can lift might be a useful additional indicator of how you'll do in the trenches. The number's shouldn't be decisive, generally, but they constitute information, and evaluation's built on information of all kinds. What's gained from sneering at additional information, unless the worry is that a sense of proper proportion is lost?

Speaking of info, I didn't follow the college basketball season closely until the end and missed out on the C-W story. That does give pause for sure. You follow the college scene much more closely than I do.

In his favor on the court, those extra 5 inches (more or less visible to the naked eye) translate into different expectations as to the defensive prowess of Burke and C-W against bigger guards. And the 5.5 inches difference in maximum jumping ability (less easily measured by the observer of ballgames) also will make a difference, I think. Something I liked about C-W's interview was him speaking of using his advantages on D by trying to block and discourage shots by opponents. Those 5 and 5.5 inch differences are differences that make a difference on the basketball court. They don't tell the whole story, which is why I'd pick Burke if given the choice, but they provide information worth knowing to an evaluator.

[Oracle]

I know the shoplifting bothers you, but young kids do stupid things, and in this country, kids are forgiven those things daily!

Is it a red flag? Not to me, but your mileage will vary!

I just want to ask you this. A kid makes a mistake, so how long do you want to punish them for it? The rest of his life?

Politicians steal billions and folks say nothing... hell, give them a raise, but let a young kid make a mistake and folks want to tar and feather them while holding them up for ridicule forever!

Every mistake isn't a character flaw, IMO, but who knows, I could be wrong!

[cool breeze]

Read it in the Free Press not the Detroit News. This is pretty cool that our Piston hero, the best player to every wear the Piston uniform continues to work on improving himself. And at the end of that article he mentions that if he could get an interview with the Piston owner, he would be interested in that head coaching job. Imagine Zeke on the bench again as the head coach. It would be magic all over again. Thousands of fans would become interested in the Pistons again. The Palace would be alive. This one thing could turn around attendance which should be on the mind of Mr. Gores but it seems he has no clue at all as to what would interest the actual Piston fans. It is insane that he had to consult with Phil Jackson. That show me that he is a weak owner. Imagine the fact that I. Thomas cannot even get an interview for the head coaching position of the Detroit Pistons. Why should we fans even care what happens to this franchise???

[merc]

Watching PTI talking about best performances in a loss... of course Wilbon gotta talk about his MJ & his Bulls... yada yada....
Let's bring some real into this discussion... 1984... Zeke scores 16 points in 94 seconds to force O.T. in the playoffs vs the Knicks at JLA... try to process this through your biased ESPN craniums... As his Mama would say...Oh Isiaher!

[cool breeze]

Thanks for posting the combine stats, Oracle. They're a trip. Notice, for instance, that Burke gains 1.5 inches in shoes while Carter-Williams just gains an inch.

The comparison between the two is interesting in other respects too. Burke's faster and has bigger hands. On the other hand, the shoeless C-W's a full 5 inches taller than Burke, who doesn't quite reach 6 feet without shoes. Also, C-W's maximum jump is 5.5 inches higher. I'm sure we'd go with Burke if given the choice, but I'm increasingly thinking that C-W wouldn't be a bad consolation prize.

-Sparma what does this all mean relating to information GMs obtain from this draft combine? I say it means next to nothing at all relating to predicting how Burke or Carter-Williams will do early on in their NBA careers if they have one. I do know what Burke did in his playing career at all levels so far. That means something to me. I see that he was criticized for saying that he wants to be a franchise player with some people believing that he might be selfish. That is a crazy thought. Burke is sticking his neck out here letting everyone know that he will come into the league with guns glazing playing as hard as he possibly can to improve any team he ends up playing on. From what I saw of Carter-Williams, he is a project type player. There is no way that he is ready to play effective minutes in the NBA. He passed up open outside shots this past season because he didn't have confidence in himself relating to his shooting. He is almost 22 years old but has developed into a player that shows he has only played two seasons in college. He has been playing the 2-3 zone defense which will be a huge disadvantage for him to beat out another guard at the NBA level. Most of the players who have entered the league playing for his college team have struggled making the move up to the NBA because they have never played college level man to man help defense. The Pistons should not take a gamble on Carter-Williams for another reason. He was caught shop lifting while representing his school. That is a character flaw. Will he do some dumb think like that if he makes an NBA team? My final assessment of Carter Williams is that he is not ready and should have stayed in college. Why not try to sign D. Collison as a point guard coming off the bench if Burke is not available and either trade the first pick or draft someone else. I have always liked him because of his penetration ability, passing ability and defense. There is no way that Zeller will be available because Phoenix wants him. Considering this draft class, I would make Zeller the number one overall pick right now.

[Oracle]

I gather that if we draft at 7 or 8 the odds are against us being able to pick any of the following six: Noel, McLemore, Porter, Burke, Oladipo, and Bennett. Weird things happen on draft night though, as we know from the past three years. I think that if any one of those six got through, he'd be our pick. If none of those six are available, I'd go for Zeller or Carter-Williams.

Not sure what to do if the lottery fell our way. I'd probably go with Noel at #1, if only to accrue assets, facilitating a trade down the road.

Yup, this is a very smart thought!

If we can't get Burke, there isn't much left for the pickings, IMO(unless Porter is there)!

If that's the case, I'm good with either Zeller or MCW! I think we need the guard more, but big men(6'10+), no matter how bad, always retain some value(6 good fouls at minimum, even if they're gay)!

So I leave it to the experts to pick between those two, but I would be happy with either!

On the Stats: Yeah it's interesting! In the head to head between Burke & MCW, Burke and Michigan CLEARLY had the better game plan, but just as I wouldn't think less of Burke if they had loss, MCW had a great run.

I've said it before, my first guard pick would be Burke, but if he can't be had, I do think we need MCW more than we need a big, but that's just my opinion!

Why? Well, I'm sold on Slava! Yeah he looked raw near the end, but the kid never got regular PT and he got no development attention from the coaching staff.

Let's see him for a full season coming off the bench, knowing the language better, and then make a decision! He's got a big body, a nose for the ball, and more importantly, an attitude!

[Sparma]

Thanks for posting the combine stats, Oracle. They're a trip. Notice, for instance, that Burke gains 1.5 inches in shoes while Carter-Williams just gains an inch.

The comparison between the two is interesting in other respects too. Burke's faster and has bigger hands. On the other hand, the shoeless C-W's a full 5 inches taller than Burke, who doesn't quite reach 6 feet without shoes. Also, C-W's maximum jump is 5.5 inches higher. I'm sure we'd go with Burke if given the choice, but I'm increasingly thinking that C-W wouldn't be a bad consolation prize.

[deusXango]

may still be coaching and no I am not talking about:

1) Brain Shaw - who would be another non-experienced candidate; or
2) Mike Budenholzer - also a guy, who has no experience leading a team; or
3) Lionel Hollins -if Gores had any sense, he would spend his money on this guy. Hollins can coach his azz off and he is a defense-first coach, who has proven that he can a team from nowhere to the Western Conference Finals.

And, I don't no about my fellow Pistons Pals, but it is time for OUR Pistons to play in May and none of these, non-experienced guys (i.e. Shaw, Budenholzer, etc.) or bums like Darrell Walker can get US there.

Gores and Joe needs to get this one right!

Sho' you're right Sebastian!

[Sebastian]

may still be coaching and no I am not talking about:

1) Brain Shaw - who would be another non-experienced candidate; or
2) Mike Budenholzer - also a guy, who has no experience leading a team; or
3) Lionel Hollins -if Gores had any sense, he would spend his money on this guy. Hollins can coach his azz off and he is a defense-first coach, who has proven that he can a team from nowhere to the Western Conference Finals.

And, I don't no about my fellow Pistons Pals, but it is time for OUR Pistons to play in May and none of these, non-experienced guys (i.e. Shaw, Budenholzer, etc.) or bums like Darrell Walker can get US there.

Gores and Joe needs to get this one right!

[deusXango]

I gather that if we draft at 7 or 8 the odds are against us being able to pick any of the following six: Noel, McLemore, Porter, Burke, Oladipo, and Bennett. Weird things happen on draft night though, as we know from the past three years. I think that if any one of those six got through, he'd be our pick. If none of those six are available, I'd go for Zeller or Carter-Williams.

Not sure what to do if the lottery fell our way. I'd probably go with Noel at #1, if only to accrue assets, facilitating a trade down the road.

Sparma, your thoughts represent where the wise money is laid on this draft for us; if we don't move up in the draft and Burke is gone, I'm really high on Zeller. I think he'll be a better fit in Detroit than he's being given credit for.

[Oracle]

CV picked up his last year option... best bet is to deal him... should get something decent in return.

Merc, a blind parking lot attendant is decent compared to CV, but none of them are worth $8.5 million a year; keep him around for the occasional long range jump shot and comedy relief until his contract expires (this will probably be his last pro contract) and then give Monroe that money next year when it's time to re-sign him.

Merc & DX, they were smart to not Amnesty CV because he's more valuable now than ever before!

Options:
1. Keep him 1: If we get lucky and really take off, having a 3 point bomber on the bench will be a good thing!
2. Keep him 2: Since he's an expiring, just like DX said, give that money to Monroe or anybody else that needs it(Hey Joe, give me a call)!
3. Deal him: As Merc said, expiring players are like gold! We should have no problem dealing CV if the deal is good! We're in such a good position that we can turn our nose up at any offer that's not to our liking because he'll expire for us anyway!

Hell yeah, CV finally worth the paper(toilet paper?) he's printed on!

[deusXango]

Is this Mark Cuban without the brains?

Detroit Pistons Owner Tom Gores May Instruct Staff To Draft Rudy Gobert

I initial laughed when I read this story but then thought what could it hurt if this kid has the talent to play in the NBA. Think we're all still devastated by the Darko drafting but it wasn't an owner that drafted Darko, it was Fat Joe.

My only concern is that this is the same story we were being fed about Slava last summer as a free agent pick up. It's hard to argue against 7"2 but I have to see this kid before I jump all over Gores, obviously Gores has been doing his homework and researching players.

The bigger issue with this or bigger story would be the shrinking confidence Gores has for Fat Joe to make the right decisions.

Wise, where's the evidence that Gores is involved in player evaluation? Given the teams that have started since he's been the owner, one can safely assume that he's Jason Maxiell's biggest fan and we can expect him to be re-signed to a hefty contract. This off-season is getting stranger and stranger.

[Oracle]

Oops, this will teach me to rely on the ignorant press!

Trey Burkes Wingspan is huge for a guy his size, and even though he is just average athletically, it's not how athletic you are, it's how you use what you have, and he's a master at getting every ounce of juice out of that sucker.

However, it's the height that I'm apologizing about! Hardaway turns out to be just over 6'6 in shoes, and Burke isn't pulling any games as the combine measured both his bare foot height and shoes, and they are within the tolerance of any other player.

So Burke is truly 6'1 in shoes, which makes him taller than Chris Paul and Kemba Walker!

FYI, here are the complete combine results.

2013 NBA pre-Draft combine measurements and results

[deusXango]

CV picked up his last year option... best bet is to deal him... should get something decent in return.

Merc, a blind parking lot attendant is decent compared to CV, but none of them are worth $8.5 million a year; keep him around for the occasional long range jump shot and comedy relief until his contract expires (this will probably be his last pro contract) and then give Monroe that money next year when it's time to re-sign him.

[deusXango]

Is this Mark Cuban without the brains?

Detroit Pistons Owner Tom Gores May Instruct Staff To Draft Rudy Gobert

Oracle, this has got to be a joke, really. With the 7th or 8th pick the thought is ludicrous! I think this is no more than a distraction from the Pistons real intent.

[WTF]

Nationality: France

FIBA Junior Team Events Stats
Year Event G FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Place
2012 U-20 European Championships Division A 9 .590 .000 .815 7.0 0.6 0.7 3.9 7.6 Silver
2011 U-20 European Championships Division A 9 .550 .000 .400 5.1 0.4 0.9 1.7 5.6 Bronze
2010 U-18 European Championships Division A 9 .507 .000 .458 9.0 1.0 0.6 1.7 9.2 7th

My question is why wasn't this kid playing in the States Really can't tell too much definite in his numbers and he reeks of being a project. But some folks have him going in the first round but I'm not sold that he's a lottery pick. He's light in the ass at 235 lbs and still a baby and can anyone on our team speak French?

A 27 game career spanning 3, count-um 3 years, against who knows what kind of competition (highly suspect at best) and we're considering him a 1st rounder. Seriously ??? An NBA 1st rounder. Come on Man !!!!!
Please let this be a smoke screen; an attempt to persuade a team ahead of us to take the plunge, opening the door to who we really want.

HEY! I'm not promoting we pick him, just putting his stats out there. However keep in mind that's about the same number of games most freshmen play before some start tagging them the next this or the next that. Also this is about as many games Darko played before Joe made him a #2 pick.

[lemonpen]

Nationality: France

FIBA Junior Team Events Stats
Year Event G FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Place
2012 U-20 European Championships Division A 9 .590 .000 .815 7.0 0.6 0.7 3.9 7.6 Silver
2011 U-20 European Championships Division A 9 .550 .000 .400 5.1 0.4 0.9 1.7 5.6 Bronze
2010 U-18 European Championships Division A 9 .507 .000 .458 9.0 1.0 0.6 1.7 9.2 7th

My question is why wasn't this kid playing in the States Really can't tell too much definite in his numbers and he reeks of being a project. But some folks have him going in the first round but I'm not sold that he's a lottery pick. He's light in the ass at 235 lbs and still a baby and can anyone on our team speak French?

A 27 game career spanning 3, count-um 3 years, against who knows what kind of competition (highly suspect at best) and we're considering him a 1st rounder. Seriously ??? An NBA 1st rounder. Come on Man !!!!!
Please let this be a smoke screen; an attempt to persuade a team ahead of us to take the plunge, opening the door to who we really want.

[Sparma]

I gather that if we draft at 7 or 8 the odds are against us being able to pick any of the following six: Noel, McLemore, Porter, Burke, Oladipo, and Bennett. Weird things happen on draft night though, as we know from the past three years. I think that if any one of those six got through, he'd be our pick. If none of those six are available, I'd go for Zeller or Carter-Williams.

Not sure what to do if the lottery fell our way. I'd probably go with Noel at #1, if only to accrue assets, facilitating a trade down the road.

[Murph]

If we didn't already have Monroe, Drummond and Kravstov, I'd definitely be up for drafting Gobert. He might be a project, but you can't teach 7'2 with a 7'9 wingspan.

But we just don't need another center.

As it is, we should spend the pick on Burke or Oladipo...players that fill specific needs for our Pistons.

[WTF]

Nationality: France

FIBA Junior Team Events Stats
Year Event G FG% 3P% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG Place
2012 U-20 European Championships Division A 9 .590 .000 .815 7.0 0.6 0.7 3.9 7.6 Silver
2011 U-20 European Championships Division A 9 .550 .000 .400 5.1 0.4 0.9 1.7 5.6 Bronze
2010 U-18 European Championships Division A 9 .507 .000 .458 9.0 1.0 0.6 1.7 9.2 7th

My question is why wasn't this kid playing in the States Really can't tell too much definite in his numbers and he reeks of being a project. But some folks have him going in the first round but I'm not sold that he's a lottery pick. He's light in the ass at 235 lbs and still a baby and can anyone on our team speak French?

[WTF]

Is this Mark Cuban without the brains?

Detroit Pistons Owner Tom Gores May Instruct Staff To Draft Rudy Gobert

I initial laughed when I read this story but then thought what could it hurt if this kid has the talent to play in the NBA. Think we're all still devastated by the Darko drafting but it wasn't an owner that drafted Darko, it was Fat Joe.

My only concern is that this is the same story we were being fed about Slava last summer as a free agent pick up. It's hard to argue against 7"2 but I have to see this kid before I jump all over Gores, obviously Gores has been doing his homework and researching players.

The bigger issue with this or bigger story would be the shrinking confidence Gores has for Fat Joe to make the right decisions.

[Oracle]

Ok, we've heard of schools inflating the height of their players, and it goes on all over!

For whatever reason these schools either don't measure or just take a players word for it, but it's a real scandal, and false advertising to boot!

However, none of that accounts for what this final four Michigan team just did!

Hardaway was listed at a generous 6'6, but he measured, in shoes, at the combine as 6'4.5! So that level of cheating appears to be the norm, but being that far off is scandalous IMO!

Then we have the strange case of Trey Burke, and this one is a doozy!

Trey Burke has ALWAYS been listed at 6'0, but through some magic, Michigan has done what no other school in history has done, and listed a player as SMALLER than he truly is? Huh? WTF?

Can this even pass the sniff test?

Burke not only measures bigger than 6'0, he measures out bigger than 6'1... again... WTF?

Something is very funny here, and it may even rival the Shabazz scandal, especially if some team wants to measure him in bare feet and watch him put the shoes on(after inspection of course).

Then again, they may approve the use of elevator sneakers next year!

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