Biggest impact players of all time for the Detroit Pistons

[cool breeze]

I have been amused by all the posts lately and then thought what is the single most important thing that can turn around a program? Individuals arrive either by the draft or through trades and change the culture completely for the better so the following are my picks that mean much more than anything in my opinion.

Isiah Thomas:
This man changed the entire picture for the Detroit Pistons like no other player who has come before or after. He was used to winning and didn't accept anything less when he arrived in Detroit. Immediately I noticed a difference and knew something great was about to happen within the following 10 years. Early on he established that he was the leader of the team and the best player. It was what Zeke did behind the scenes that changed the fortunes of the Pistons. I read where Sparma mentioned that the stats show that Isiah was perhaps less important than Rodman as the team got better and won championships. Rodman sure was incredible as to how he sparked the team just by giving more effort than any other player on the floor. He was never a big scorer but drove opponents crazy and inspired his teammates to play harder. This asset in a player makes me think that GMs should look for more than the stat sheet as to shooting percentages and scoring averages if they really want to win. Rodman was great but who inspired him the most when he played with the Pistons? Who was talking to Rodman all the time telling he what the team needed and how he could fill the role he played? Isiah Thomas is the answer.

Ben Wallace:
Ben came in as a nobody in a trade involving a Piston All Star player. But I'll bet that many of you remember the first game Ben Wallace played for the Pistons. He was like Dennis Rodman. No more teal in Detroit. Fans really got excited even knowing Detroit did not have a solid team at the time. Ben brought back the memories of the Bad Boys. He got everyone on the team to play harder too. Show by example is the mark of a good NBA leader and that trade was the start another championship era. Somehow Joe Dumars forgot everything about the KIND Of Players that are needed to start building a solid team. It was really incredible that Joe Dumars after witnessing so much winning and being a part of winning would then got out and sign Ben Gordon and Charlie V. I was so pissed off when Joe signed Charlie V. He was the exact opposite of the type of players Joe played basketball with. Something happened to Joe. What was it?

[Sparma]

The latest cbs mock draft has Tyrese Haliburton going at #3, the highest I've seen. Maybe they've been listening to Murph.

They also have Deus' guy Okongwu going at #4, really high.

Meanwhile, my guy Killian Hayes falls to #8 there.

Ball at #2 but with warnings that he could flop.

I suppose I'd be better off looking at one mock per year, rather than dozens. Interesting though.

[Sparma]

Keith Langlois with an excellent story about the trade of Laimbeer from Cleveland to Detroit [Langlois knows his stuff; unfortunately, he feels a need to spin much of the time].

Langlois: Kenny "Carr seemed the real prize, a 26-year-old power forward averaging 15.2 points and 10.3 rebounds. But Pistons general manager Jack McCloskey wanted Laimbeer.
Long before the word “analytics” seeped into the sports landscape, McCloskey had devised his own numbers-based formula to support his gut hunches on players. He graded players on a 1-10 basis across 10 categories and determined over time that any player who scored 80 or better would become a desirable addition. Laimbeer passed muster both on McCloskey’s scale and in his gut.
“I saw him play when we played Cleveland,” McCloskey would say nearly 30 years later. “We beat them pretty good that night, but I saw him compete until the last whistle goes. We didn’t have too many big guys then. I said, ‘I’ve got to try to get him. He doesn’t have fancy footwork or anything like that, but he wants to win.’ ”

[Sparma]

McCloskey was pretty fantastic. It looks like he's not in the HoF. Weird.

I'd rank Rodman over Dumars too, for his career, but still Dumars over Rodman if just considering their time as Pistons.

Hard to dispute Kobe at #1, except that as I remember his team did some pre-draft maneuvering to make him drop [?], talking about teams he wouldn't play for (and then he was from Charlotte to LA, right?).

Kawhi and Giannis were both straight up #15 picks. You could make a case for them being the biggest draft steals ever. I remember liking both of them at draft time, but I suppose a lot of folks did as high ceiling, somewhat risky, picks.

Milwaukee could make another pitch for greatest draft pick in Kareem/ Lew Alcindor. He was the sure fire #1, of course, but Milwaukee won the coin toss with Phoenix, who picked Neal Walk. They got a championship out of that before they had to deal Kareem on to LA.

So I'm not going to feel to sorry for Milwaukee with their draft history.

And with worst picks, Detroit's got to be on there with Darko.

Yes, it's a little like someone moaning about how often they've lost at the lottery and how unlucky they've been, except for that one time they had the winning 300 million ticket.

I’m sorry, I was reading the news feed today, and I see some article headlined that the Bucks are contenders in spite of draft misses.  WTF are they talking about???  They hit one of the biggest home runs in draft history.  They managed to take the single best player in the NBA, Giannis, at #15.

You know who the Pistons took that year?   They took KCP at #8.  

Here's an interesting list of the greatest NBA draft picks of all time, from Bleacher Report.  It was evidently written before the emergence of Giannis and 2 time champion Kahwi Leonard.  It has Kobe as the greatest pick of all time.  I can't argue with that.  Kobe was taken at 13th, and is a top 10 player of all time.

Pistons on that list include Dennis Rodman as the 19th greatest pick of all time, Joe Dumars as the 18th greatest pick of all time, and Bill Laimbeer as 3rd greatest pick of all time.  Personally, I'd put Rodman ahead of Joe Dumars.  But either way, it's a testament to how great a GM Jack McClosky was.

Looking at that list, Giannis should be a top 3 pick of all time, behind Kobe and maybe Kahwi, depending on how many championships Giannis wins.  


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/752976-nba-power-rankings-the-30-greatest-value-draft-picks-of-all-time

[Murph]

Yes, it's a little like someone moaning about how often they've lost at the lottery and how unlucky they've been, except for that one time they had the winning 300 million ticket.

I’m sorry, I was reading the news feed today, and I see some article headlined that the Bucks are contenders in spite of draft misses.  WTF are they talking about???  They hit one of the biggest home runs in draft history.  They managed to take the single best player in the NBA, Giannis, at #15.

You know who the Pistons took that year?   They took KCP at #8.  

Here's an interesting list of the greatest NBA draft picks of all time, from Bleacher Report.  It was evidently written before the emergence of Giannis and 2 time champion Kahwi Leonard.  It has Kobe as the greatest pick of all time.  I can't argue with that.  Kobe was taken at 13th, and is a top 10 player of all time.

Pistons on that list include Dennis Rodman as the 19th greatest pick of all time, Joe Dumars as the 18th greatest pick of all time, and Bill Laimbeer as 3rd greatest pick of all time.  Personally, I'd put Rodman ahead of Joe Dumars.  But either way, it's a testament to how great a GM Jack McClosky was.

Looking at that list, Giannis should be a top 3 pick of all time, behind Kobe and maybe Kahwi, depending on how many championships Giannis wins.  


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/752976-nba-power-rankings-the-30-greatest-value-draft-picks-of-all-time

[Sparma]

Yes, it's a little like someone moaning about how often they've lost at the lottery and how unlucky they've been, except for that one time they had the winning 300 million ticket.

I’m sorry, I was reading the news feed today, and I see some article headlined that the Bucks are contenders in spite of draft misses.  WTF are they talking about???  They hit one of the biggest home runs in draft history.  They managed to take the single best player in the NBA, Giannis, at #15.

You know who the Pistons took that year?   They took KCP at #8.  

[Murph]

I’m sorry, I was reading the news feed today, and I see some article headlined that the Bucks are contenders in spite of draft misses. WTF are they talking about??? They hit one of the biggest home runs in draft history. They managed to take the single best player in the NBA, Giannis, at #15.

You know who the Pistons took that year? They took KCP at #8.

[Sparma]

Given that those guys won so much (59-33), maybe a Win Share comparison will come out to a more intuitively comparable result than the PER comparison. Let's see, again focusing on just the top eight guys [meaning that the team Win totals don't come out the same]. Again, I'm using the 2018-2019 stats as comparison with the 1989-1990 Pistons.

Center: Guess who??!: Andre Drummond, coming in .1 behind Laimbeer. I hope we can at least agree that he'd be an upgrade over Robin (!) Lopez of the PER comparison. n.B. Bill came in with the highest WS for the regular season for that second champ.

Forwards: Pascal Siakem (identical to Rodman's 9.3 WS) and Al-Farouq Aminu (.1 ahead of Aquirre)*.

Frontcourt depth: Paul Milsap (or Julius Randle, both tied with Salley at 6.1) and Mason Plumlee (or Ed Davis or Thomas Bryant, all Cs* tied with Edwards at 5.6 W.S.)

[*What % did Edwards play backup C and what % as F? I don't know. I'm not finding a good correspondence to Aquirre, so I'm moving him back into the starting line up (contrary to the history of the later part of the season. I'm' using a C as the match for Edwards]

Guards: PG Kyle Lowry (or Chris Paul, both .1 behind Isiah's 6.7 WS) and either Eric Bledsoe or Ben Simmons at the other starting guard, even though both, at 8.2, are significantly behind Joe's 8.7 [two Cs match Joe's WS exactly, namely Joel Embiid and MontrezL Harrell, there's not a close match at G).

Third guard: Terry Rozier, matching Vinnie's 3.2 exactly [incidentally, Rozier's the only repeat from the PER comparison].

That looks like a far more formidable 8 man team than the one delivered by the PER comparison. Possible champion? I think so (although not probable), in comparison with Toronto last year, but if Drummond's really a loser, forget it.

Again, I think there's a lesson for constructing the current team, because I think putting such a team together would be possible, even if much tougher than the PER equivalent team.

[Sparma]

Focusing on the second Bad Boys champs, I wanted to provide a sense of a roughly parallel team, based on PER.  Ideally, I'd want to use WS and WS/ per 48, but this is a start.  I'm using the completed stats from the 2018-2019.

Starting Guards: Tray Young & Donavan Mitchell [they're a hair below Isiah and Joe, the two best PER guys on that second champ.]

Third guard: Terry Rozier [same PER as Vinnie].

Center: Robin [!?] Lopez at 15.9 > Laim's 15.8.

Forwards: Nemanja Bjelica [??! matching Rodman at 15.4] and Joe Ingles [Edwards and Rodman got the most frontcourt minutes, other than Laimbeer]

Frontcourt backups: Otto Porter (.1 above Aguirre) [I know that Aguirre gave up his starting spot to Rodman mid-season] and Jeff Green (a hair above Salley).

Coach: ? Erik Spoelstra [of course there's no PER equivalency]

Maybe this exercise demonstrates the foolishness of dwelling on advanced stats.

A few observations: That doesn't look like a championship team.  That in, in turn suggests that those Pistons played big in the playoffs, beyond their regular season levels [a quick check of playoff stats shows that Isiah makes a leap from 17.3 to a star level 21, but that the other PERs for the playoffs look pretty ordinary].

The biggest positive I take away: it looks like replicating a PER equivalent of that second Bad Boys champ is well within reach.  Also, yes, there were various HoFers on that second champ, but none of them played at superstar level throughout the 1989-90 regular season.  

All three of Detroit's champs demonstrate that it need not be a star league.  Constructing a deep roster of guys whose performance outstrips their pay strikes me as the path for the present day Pistons to take.

[Sparma]

Agreed, Cool, it's fun to reminisce about beloved teams and players in spite of, or even because of, different perspectives.

Thanks for responding to my earlier posts.

Looking at the advanced stats, I make a few (controversial) observations.

A decent case can be made for Laimbeer as the best of the Bad Boy champs, or as the fourth best.

Those stats indicate that Isiah had moved from being a superstar level performer to being a (merely) good PG during the two championship seasons.

WS per 48 suggests that Rodman was the most valuable per minute player on those two championship teams.

Murph: "Of course, Laimbeer had the luxury of playing with 4 HOFers (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman and Dantley), and a HOF Coach (Daley). And Wallace had the luxury of playin with 8 other All Stars (Billups, Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, Okur, McDyess, Stackhouse, Robinson and Coleman) and a HOF coach (Brown)."

Crucial facts!

Has Drummond ever played for a good coach? Maybe that depends on how we regard our Coach of the Year.  I suppose if we go back to his year in college.

Murph, I hoping they can garner picks or a promising youngster by taking on a bad contract from a contender for a year, or even two.

AD had good college coaches. Coaches had difficulty getting AD to buy into their way of doing things especially sticking to game plans and staying out of foul trouble. Andre was young and did not have the fundamentals down before arriving to the NBA. I could list his lack of knowledge or ability to execute the fundamental again which I did many times during his stay in Detroit. Andre Drummond has always been a freak athlete who could still be an incredible player on both offense and defense. But bad habits are hard to break.

Bill Laimbeer and Ben Wallace are in a different category than Andre Drummond and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as AD in my opinion. Both Bill and Ben were leaders on championship teams. It was Isiah and Bill who always entered the court first when their team took the floor. They both had very serious looks on their faces. Zeke and Bill were fully prepared to play for one purpose and that was TO WIN. Laimbeer hit huge shots and secured key rebounds in games. Opponents hated playing against Bill Laimbeer. Who feared playing against Andre Drummond? I can't think of any center in the league who didn't look forward to beating AD from baseline to baseline. They knew he would be a slacker on most possessions. AD just did not like playing defense. That has to be it. He hated playing defense.

Ben Wallace changed the culture of the Pistons to Black an Blue from TEAL. The moment he arrive and the first time I watched him play his first game as a Piston, I became so optimistic. He simply out worked his opposition as an under sized center. He was everywhere on defense and had amazing instincts as to where the ball would be coming off the boards. Ben was a really quick player and enjoyed his job of enforcer on the defensive end. Again, Ben Wallace was always there in crunch time playing harder than any player on the floor the moment he arrived in Detroit. Where is the stat for HEART? How about the lack of a stat for COACHABLE. It is interesting to read about the research relating to the numbers for this or that but when trying to compare players like Laimbeer, Wallace and Drummond one much realize that the results never provide the truth relating to who impacts a team relating to leadership, desire to win, consistency in effort etc. What I like about reading all of your posts it that it sparks positive memories when someone mentions the names Bill Laimbeer and Ben Wallace. Both men were hated by opposing teams. I loved that. Even the media hated Bill Laimbeer and in my mind Laimbeer was never a dirty player as they tried to condition minds year after year. What players like Parish hated was the fact that Bill Laimbeer outsmarted them most if not all the time. He had the fundamentals down. Who by looking at Bill Laimbeer would think he was such a deadly player? He boxed out as well as any player that I have ever witnessed and his anticipation and basketball IQ was superior. Recognition of situations is a key attribute that is often overlooked by scouts and GMs like the Pistons have had in the past. I remember how Laimbeer and Thomas would laugh in crunch time when they trapped an opponent especially when an opposing player got a defensive rebound. They knew what they were doing. Zeke would release and get in the spot where the rebounder passed the ball and snagged the ball and went in for an easy layup. How many times have we seen two Piston players playing together like that? We have been watching the low basketball IQ players for the last 12 years and that should be an insult to all Piston fans who deserve better from ownership and hire management. Who wants to win? Who really could give a rats ass if they win and only care about stats and making a ton of money? The Pistons brain trust must figure out how they can improve in the selection process before it is too late again.

Luke Kennard has a high  basketball IQ. I always wanted to see him play point guard but I guess that is out of the question yet I wonder why Casey has never thought of that idea. Could Luke be a team leader? He did a great job of doing that in high school.  

[cool breeze]

Murph: "Of course, Laimbeer had the luxury of playing with 4 HOFers (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman and Dantley), and a HOF Coach (Daley). And Wallace had the luxury of playin with 8 other All Stars (Billups, Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, Okur, McDyess, Stackhouse, Robinson and Coleman) and a HOF coach (Brown)."

Crucial facts!

Has Drummond ever played for a good coach? Maybe that depends on how we regard our Coach of the Year.  I suppose if we go back to his year in college.

Murph, I hoping they can garner picks or a promising youngster by taking on a bad contract from a contender for a year, or even two.

AD had good college coaches. Coaches had difficulty getting AD to buy into their way of doing things especially sticking to game plans and staying out of foul trouble. Andre was young and did not have the fundamentals down before arriving to the NBA. I could list his lack of knowledge or ability to execute the fundamental again which I did many times during his stay in Detroit. Andre Drummond has always been a freak athlete who could still be an incredible player on both offense and defense. But bad habits are hard to break.

Bill Laimbeer and Ben Wallace are in a different category than Andre Drummond and shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as AD in my opinion. Both Bill and Ben were leaders on championship teams. It was Isiah and Bill who always entered the court first when their team took the floor. They both had very serious looks on their faces. Zeke and Bill were fully prepared to play for one purpose and that was TO WIN. Laimbeer hit huge shots and secured key rebounds in games. Opponents hated playing against Bill Laimbeer. Who feared playing against Andre Drummond? I can't think of any center in the league who didn't look forward to beating AD from baseline to baseline. They knew he would be a slacker on most possessions. AD just did not like playing defense. That has to be it. He hated playing defense.

Ben Wallace changed the culture of the Pistons to Black an Blue from TEAL. The moment he arrive and the first time I watched him play his first game as a Piston, I became so optimistic. He simply out worked his opposition as an under sized center. He was everywhere on defense and had amazing instincts as to where the ball would be coming off the boards. Ben was a really quick player and enjoyed his job of enforcer on the defensive end. Again, Ben Wallace was always there in crunch time playing harder than any player on the floor the moment he arrived in Detroit. Where is the stat for HEART? How about the lack of a stat for COACHABLE. It is interesting to read about the research relating to the numbers for this or that but when trying to compare players like Laimbeer, Wallace and Drummond one much realize that the results never provide the truth relating to who impacts a team relating to leadership, desire to win, consistency in effort etc. What I like about reading all of your posts it that it sparks positive memories when someone mentions the names Bill Laimbeer and Ben Wallace. Both men were hated by opposing teams. I loved that. Even the media hated Bill Laimbeer and in my mind Laimbeer was never a dirty player as they tried to condition minds year after year. What players like Parish hated was the fact that Bill Laimbeer outsmarted them most if not all the time. He had the fundamentals down. Who by looking at Bill Laimbeer would think he was such a deadly player? He boxed out as well as any player that I have ever witnessed and his anticipation and basketball IQ was superior. Recognition of situations is a key attribute that is often overlooked by scouts and GMs like the Pistons have had in the past. I remember how Laimbeer and Thomas would laugh in crunch time when they trapped an opponent especially when an opposing player got a defensive rebound. They knew what they were doing. Zeke would release and get in the spot where the rebounder passed the ball and snagged the ball and went in for an easy layup. How many times have we seen two Piston players playing together like that? We have been watching the low basketball IQ players for the last 12 years and that should be an insult to all Piston fans who deserve better from ownership and hire management. Who wants to win? Who really could give a rats ass if they win and only care about stats and making a ton of money? The Pistons brain trust must figure out how they can improve in the selection process before it is too late again.

Luke Kennard has a high basketball IQ. I always wanted to see him play point guard but I guess that is out of the question yet I wonder why Casey has never thought of that idea. Could Luke be a team leader? He did a great job of doing that in high school.

[Sparma]

Murph: "Of course, Laimbeer had the luxury of playing with 4 HOFers (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman and Dantley), and a HOF Coach (Daley). And Wallace had the luxury of playin with 8 other All Stars (Billups, Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, Okur, McDyess, Stackhouse, Robinson and Coleman) and a HOF coach (Brown)."

Crucial facts!

Has Drummond ever played for a good coach? Maybe that depends on how we regard our Coach of the Year.  I suppose if we go back to his year in college.

Murph, I hoping they can garner picks or a promising youngster by taking on a bad contract from a contender for a year, or even two.

[Murph]

So the 20-21 NBA salary cap is projected to be $115 million, and 90% of that is $103.5 million, which will be the NBA team salary minimum. I would recommend Gores spend the minimum. There’s no reason to spend more

Now, as I said before, we are already committed to $68 million in salaries, plus Wood, if we can resign him, and our 1st rounder. That should account for another roughly $21 million, which leaves us $14.5 million below the minimum.

So management has to spend another $14.5 on some combination of players, hopefully to 1 year contracts.


Of course, Laimbeer had the luxury of playing with 4 HOFers (Thomas, Dumars, Rodman and Dantley), and a HOF Coach (Daley). And Wallace had the luxury of playin with 8 other All Stars (Billups, Hamilton, Rasheed Wallace, Okur, McDyess, Stackhouse, Robinson and Coleman) and a HOF coach (Brown). But let’s not let facts get in the way of a good argument.

[Sparma]

Laimbeer scored a 14.2 PER with Cleveland his rookie year, and again a 14.2 in the part of his second year he spent in Cleveland, i.e., just below the league average of PER of 15.

Traded to Detroit, he immediately leapt to 16.5, and climbed for a couple of years from there, then maintaining years of above league average performance.

Ben Wallace had PERs of 6, 13.4, and 16.4 with Washington (each in partial seasons), before a 14.4 (just below league average) before coming to Detroit, scoring a 14.8 in his first year as a Piston, then going into his five year peak.

I'm drawing a perception into question, rather than claiming either was just chopped liver before getting to Detroit, or once departed, in Ben's case.

There's a pretty common perception that I claim is at least worth debating: Bill and Ben are winners, and Andre is a loser. Given B&B's ships on the one hand, and Dre's record on the other, it hard to deny there's some insight and truth to that perception (thus far, at least).

Oftentimes a systems approach helps in evaluating players, and I'd argue that's the case with these three. The pixie dust of being a winner doesn't appear for Bill and Ben until they're in the right environment, playing with an impressive ensemble of talents, and it disappears pretty quickly once they're not, either because Bill's stuck on an aging team or because Ben seeks greener pastures.

Maybe Drummond really is a loser through and through, but I contend we can't adequately put that hypothesis to the test until a peak Drummond's in a setting primed to bring out his best contributory self.

[Sparma]

I'm hoping we won't need to go to 18 mil to resign Wood. 14 or 15 mil for 3 or 4 years would be my best guess.

As I remember I raised the 18 mil as a hypothetical: how far would you go, and at what point would there be serious worries about regrets a couple years down the line.

Deus, hypothetically, would you be willing to sign Wood for the max? It looks like for him (in distinction to the older Drummond) the max would be begin just under 30 mil, then go a bit over the second year, etc.

So I'm not asking if you think it's likely that's where the bidding will go (that seems unlikely), but rather if it went there, should the team sign him for that much?

Where's the break even point between a) we've just got to sign him and b) we like him, but our concerns lead us to beg off?

Murph, considering your numbers are correct and draft picks can be sold this year, what will about $18 million get us on the open market? Another top ten pick and first rounder? Who'd have thought that Maker and Galloway would get us a lottery pick? I know that $18 million is a considerable amount for one or two draft picks but, look at where this would put our restoration. If the talent is evaluated correctly and pans out as projected; wow! Three first rounders, a key FA re-signing, and development of a few of our players we're off to the races.

I'm dreaming again (cheaper than taking a gamble on mediocre) and inviting all to think on this:
-Re-sign Christian Wood
-Get lucky and draft LaMelo Ball our PG of right now
-Purchase the rights to Onyeka Okongwu our Swiss Army defensive big man
-Purchase the rights to Devin Vassell our 3 & D phenom in case Kennard busts out
Tom Gores always said (and he proved it) money was no object and he didn't mind spending...he never had a team with this much potential or youth. The Bad Boys style "three guard rotation" in Ball, Kennard, and Vassell. Some highly skilled big men in Griffin, Wood, Okongwu, Doumbouya, and Patton. The teams 3 & D wings are nothing to be sneezed at...Snell, Brown, Mykhailiuk, and King. Our 6th man killer assassin is Derrick Rose. I don't see where any unmentioned players are necessary...this is excitement, competitive, and young enough to grow together; a team of high I.Q., hard-nosed players. Yeah, spend that money to reach the minimum but, spend it wisely! Now, about the right coaching.

[lemonpen]

I hear you (and it's good to hear from you), but context matters.  

Roger Maris did ok with the Indians, but was traded on to KC, where he was pretty good.  Traded to the Yankees, he won two MVPs in a row.  Seems to have had a sour personality too.  Looking back in 1980, he said:  "They acted as though I was doing something wrong, poisoning the record books or something. Do you know what I have to show for 61 home runs? Nothing. Exactly nothing."

[Say what?]

Drummond's not a natural leader, and he'd probably need to be the third best, even fourth best, player on a team to really contribute to a championship contender.  And his likely fat contract (even if it ends up being a "mere" 20 mil) makes that improbable.  But I'd like to seem him get the chance.  

Laimbeer and B. Wallace weren't lighting up the league before coming here.  Laimbeer became ordinary again after the team peaked.  And in six seasons (upon leaving the D) Ben had one season over the league average of 15 PER, at 15.8 when he came back to Detroit.  Am I stuck on a stats rather than their intangibles?  Their knack for winning slipped away quickly once they moved past their physical peaks and no longer had the right support.

Drummond has had one winning season, and one .500 season, so he's hardly won the mantle of "winner."  In the right context though, he could be really valuable. And the Pistons felt his absence big time as soon as he left, immediately moving from being pretty bad to being awful, Wood's heroics notwithstanding.

Remember Terry Pluto's "The Curse of Rocky Colavito" about how the Indians tumbled once they traded him to Detroit?  Well, I'm with you to this extent: I don't foresee a book about the "The Curse of Andre Drummond" about the negative impact of his trade to Cleveland.  In fact, I'm hoping we move upward in the next five years.  

In any case, you're to be commended for going in and watching that stuff, including our much-debated AD.  

**

[Lemonpen:]

Dre has seldom met the standard.  Aww screw it, never met the standard, because consistency matters.  Guys in Murph's list are miles closer despite their pay.  Insult Alert,
AD can't carry Horford jock.

IMHO Dre enjoys the trappings afforded by membership  far more than success.

Good luck and good riddance.

[/quote]

Both Laims and Bennie had begun their ascent the year prior to their arrival. And, not long after their arrival were all concerns regarding Motor, IQ, Work Ethic Will Power, and Drive extinguished. JMO, but I think 1 DOG year of unresolved concerns for Dre is plenty long enough. The only way I see Drummond ever being a member of a contending team is in the capacity of say Andrew Bogut with Golden State. Vet min contract & limited role when well past his prime.

[lemonpen]

Does anyone know what the league minimum is for team salaries?  It looks as if the league minimum was about $110 million for last year.

According to Hoopshype, we currently have $68 million worth of salaries under contract.  That means we are going to have to add roughly $42 million more worth of contracts to the payroll to reach the league minimum.

If we resign Christian Wood, that will help.  Sparma has suggested that might take $18 million a year.  And our lottery pick will help also.  Our 1st rounder should take up another $6 million a year or so.

But that means we are still going to have to spend anther roughly $18 million a year, on free agents we don't want, to help us win games we don't want to win.  

Hmmm...where to waste that money?  Well for one thing, whomever we sign, it should be to 1 year contracts, so we don't get tied up paying some stiff for several years.  That makes guys like Thon Maker and Langston Galloway look pretty good.  Not because they are talented, but because they will probably take 1 year deals, and probably will not help us win very many games.

We could waste $5 million picking up Maker's qualifying offer, and we could waste another $8 million giving Galloway a 1 year contract extension.  Then maybe we could spend the rest giving guys like King and Bone legitimate contracts.

It is calculated as 90% of the years CAP.

[lemonpen]

No Zeke's or Hill's, no problem.

Without the efforts of a special few unheralded picks we have no laundry in our rafters.  Joe D., Salley, Rodman, and Prince.  

This may be the year we find those value picks who produce near all star level while on rookie contracts.  Luke, Svi, Wood and Brown will be on 2nd, larger contracts by the time we really get rolling.

Lemon...I respectfully disagree.  This is a star league.  In order to really contend, we need stars, 2 or 3 of them.  We have Griffin and Rose, but they are injury prone and past their primes.  If they were both 5 years younger and healthy, then maybe we could contend with them.  But sadly that isn't the case.

We have this year's lottery pick, that we need to get lucky with.  And we might be able to resign Christian Wood, who might be able to turn into an offensive star.  Then there's next year's draft and the year after...

Other than that, we have a bunch of decent role players.  Don't get me wrong, we are going to need role players to contend also, but only after we've acquired 2 or 3 bonified stars.  

This is going to be a long process.

"Star league", yep, strongly agree. But, if we play a waiting game for the opportunity to get said stars, we may not get er done. Drafting one is a low probability crap shoot. Trading for one is a one time thing given its impact on the CAP. Grabbing one via FA only seems to happen after first acquiring one via the other methods. I kinda like the way Toronto managed to succeed.

[deusXango]

Murph, considering your numbers are correct and draft picks can be sold this year, what will about $18 million get us on the open market? Another top ten pick and first rounder? Who'd have thought that Maker and Galloway would get us a lottery pick? I know that $18 million is a considerable amount for one or two draft picks but, look at where this would put our restoration. If the talent is evaluated correctly and pans out as projected; wow! Three first rounders, a key FA re-signing, and development of a few of our players we're off to the races.

I'm dreaming again (cheaper than taking a gamble on mediocre) and inviting all to think on this:
-Re-sign Christian Wood
-Get lucky and draft LaMelo Ball our PG of right now
-Purchase the rights to Onyeka Okongwu our Swiss Army defensive big man
-Purchase the rights to Devin Vassell our 3 & D phenom in case Kennard busts out
Tom Gores always said (and he proved it) money was no object and he didn't mind spending...he never had a team with this much potential or youth. The Bad Boys style "three guard rotation" in Ball, Kennard, and Vassell. Some highly skilled big men in Griffin, Wood, Okongwu, Doumbouya, and Patton. The teams 3 & D wings are nothing to be sneezed at...Snell, Brown, Mykhailiuk, and King. Our 6th man killer assassin is Derrick Rose. I don't see where any unmentioned players are necessary...this is excitement, competitive, and young enough to grow together; a team of high I.Q., hard-nosed players. Yeah, spend that money to reach the minimum but, spend it wisely! Now, about the right coaching.

[Murph]

Does anyone know what the league minimum is for team salaries?  It looks as if the league minimum was about $110 million for last year.

According to Hoopshype, we currently have $68 million worth of salaries under contract.  That means we are going to have to add roughly $42 million more worth of contracts to the payroll to reach the league minimum.

If we resign Christian Wood, that will help.  Sparma has suggested that might take $18 million a year.  And our lottery pick will help also.  Our 1st rounder should take up another $6 million a year or so.

But that means we are still going to have to spend anther roughly $18 million a year, on free agents we don't want, to help us win games we don't want to win.  

Hmmm...where to waste that money?  Well for one thing, whomever we sign, it should be to 1 year contracts, so we don't get tied up paying some stiff for several years.  That makes guys like Thon Maker and Langston Galloway look pretty good.  Not because they are talented, but because they will probably take 1 year deals, and probably will not help us win very many games.

We could waste $5 million picking up Maker's qualifying offer, and we could waste another $8 million giving Galloway a 1 year contract extension.  Then maybe we could spend the rest giving guys like King and Bone legitimate contracts.

[Murph]

No Zeke's or Hill's, no problem.

Without the efforts of a special few unheralded picks we have no laundry in our rafters.  Joe D., Salley, Rodman, and Prince.  

This may be the year we find those value picks who produce near all star level while on rookie contracts.  Luke, Svi, Wood and Brown will be on 2nd, larger contracts by the time we really get rolling.

Lemon...I respectfully disagree. This is a star league. In order to really contend, we need stars, 2 or 3 of them. We have Griffin and Rose, but they are injury prone and past their primes. If they were both 5 years younger and healthy, then maybe we could contend with them. But sadly that isn't the case.

We have this year's lottery pick, that we need to get lucky with. And we might be able to resign Christian Wood, who might be able to turn into an offensive star. Then there's next year's draft and the year after...

Other than that, we have a bunch of decent role players. Don't get me wrong, we are going to need role players to contend also, but only after we've acquired 2 or 3 bonified stars.

This is going to be a long process.

[cool breeze]

Our mistake wasn't failing to trade him a year ago, or so.  It was giving his lazy behind the $125M deal.  

Being considered for the Olympic Select Team early on  revealed Dre's professional character.   Dre was ruined, believing he was all that, never seriously seeking improvement.

9 years in as an old fashioned center, and no reliable post move.  $25-30M ?!?!?

You are so right Lemonpen. And I will never forget how AD acted after he signed that big contract. This man could have been so much better if he hadn't listened to himself. No I will not work with that shooting coach you hired to improve my post moves and free throw shooting. Wasn't there a restraining order issued to keep the coach 3/4 of the court away from AD at all times in practice? That happened in training camp after signing that contract you mentioned. Cannot put AD in that "TEAM FIRST" type player category. Wouldn't most any player at any level say thank you for hiring someone who can help me with my shooting? I really would like to improve and eliminate any defects so I can help my team win. Maybe AD has matured but like you I am so happy he is not playing for the Pistons. There are too many bad memories for me to list on paper but he was not as bad as Charlie V.. Charlie is the laziest Piston player that I can recall and perhaps the most disruptive player who ever wore the Piston uniform. His favorite comment (Our losing has nothing to do with our talent). Sure Charlie it must have been the coaching that caused you to be the last player back on defense even though you were standing outside the free throw line 99% of the time when you were on offense.

How about we have a tribute bringing back an All Star Piston team for a special night of fun where fans pick the players they liked watching the least. Charlie V would be on my list along with Kent Benson. How about Chuckie Atkins who in the playoffs towards the end of the game with the Pistons leading at home by 2 points called a time out. I attended that game and had seats close to the Pistons bench. The assistant coach said Chuckie make sure to get out on Snow from Philly who is going to be set up for their final shot and it is going to be a 3 point attempt. Remember not to leave him open just stay out wherever he is on the floor. Sure OK coach I can do that. So play resumes and sure enough Chuckie goes for the fake drive in the paint and leaves Snow who then gets a wide open look to drain a 3 pointer. The Pistons still manage to win the game but this is what you get at the highest level of basketball at times. I would enjoy reading who some of the posters might list for the All Star team. I think putting AD and Reggie Jackson together on the same team was pure poison. Perhaps a really strong leader type point guard who had a history of being on winning teams might have motivated AD to be a different type of player. But maybe not because as you said the biggest mistake was offering that 2nd contract and that is on the owner.

[cool breeze]

Memory is faint, so I wanted to do a bit of checking on Laimbeer as part of a coterie of players.

As point of reference, Drummond scores a PER of 22.1 with the Pistons, significantly better than any of the Bad Boys on the two championship teams (what??!), but not quite as good as Wood, and just a bit better than Rose.  Something's off there!  Drummond didn't do that well with WS or WS/ per 48 with the Pistons this year, although he has in the past.

We know that the Bad Boys were a deep, deep, team with several frontline players.  Weirdly, Adrian Dantley scores the highest PER of any Pistons those two years, at 18.1.  That must have been a tough trade to make!  Of the 1st time champs, Vinnie's at the top (17.3), followed by Isiah (17.1), Dumars, Laimbeer, and Rodman.  Laimbeer's tops in WS, followed by Rodman, with Isiah and Dumars tied (it looks like Dantley would have been tops in a full season).  Dantley's first in WS/48, followed by Rodman, who leads Laimbeer.  Leaving Dantley out of it, Isiah comes in tied for sixth (!) among regulars [also behind Drummond's number this year].

The next championship is similar, except that Dantley doesn't play with them at all.  Isiah is best in PER at 17.3, just ahead with Dumars, with Laimbeer tied for third with Aguirre, and Rodman next.  In WS, Laimbeer comes in first, a little ahead of Rodman, and Dumars.  Isiah is fourth, a little ahead of Salley, Aquirre, and Edwards.  Rodman wins in WS per 48, with Laimbeer close behind.  Weirdly, Isiah does quite poorly with WS per 48 [also finishing behind Drummond's pedestrian number from this season].  

Crazily, the biggest takeaway I'd have in 2020 it's that that's how you show try to build a roster today, with several real good players, and great depth.  Seems impossible when you think of all the legendary names gathered.  But if you remove the names, and think of gathering players with that level of statistical performance, it does seem possible for a team like Detroit.

Sparma you have outdone yourself with this post. You are a thinker. Great job! In todays world players agents are really getting off by getting fans and some not so smart owners addicted to complicated statistics. Agents as you know use everything in their power to get as much money as possible for their clients as they should. I had to take Statistics to get my degree in undergraduate studies. I sure was happy after I took my final exam.

The question is how focused are NBA players on their personal stats today as opposed to the players on the successful Bad Boys team? If Isiah Thomas had wanted to play selfishly, one could only imagine what his stats might have been. The Pistons were led by Zeke. He wanted to win the NBA Championship. Zeke knew that players have to buy into filling a role for the team to win. This simple thing has been missing within the Piston organization since Billups was traded. Chauncey was also a great leader. That is why Rasheed said the day he heard of the bogus trade " It's over". The owner, front office and head coach needs to get back on this theme that allowed the people of Michigan to clear for a winning team. To create a winning team you need players who will sacrifice their individual desires for the good of the team. You compared Laimbeer to Drummond. Why not compare Drummond to Ben Wallace? Both Laimbeer and Wallace did key things on the court when games were on the line to help their team win. Laimbeer was a pressure player who could drill a big long range shot in crunch time. He could also get a deciding rebound or block a shot and work with another teammate to get an opponent to turn the ball over. That is what I love to see rather than watch a player play basketball as an individual and cheer for himself and celebrate whenever they dunk the ball in a meaningless moment of a game.

This is why I believe the Pistons should trade Rose, Griffin and anybody else if they can acquire draft picks. Management needs to acquire a lot of picks and then draft players who will compliment each other and select only players who have a history of playing unselfishly and who will do anything to win games. If there is a way to trade down and get more picks this is the year to do it. There are some really good team first players listed in the 2nd round who have a history of being having the "right stuff". Get players who are easy to coach and do not have personality defects that also have special gifts. I put Payton Pritchard up there with any of the players listed in the top 5 of this draft. He has all the ingredients that I listed who can form a winning combination where all 5 players play for each other. He makes teammates better and defines roles for his teammates. Since he arrived at Oregon, the coaching staff had to do very little work but they still had who I believe is one of the best all time coaches in Dana Altman.

We have witnessed Reggie play for Reggie and AD playing for AD. They also played for each other not not for the other players they played with. It was Reggie and AD hugging each other while the 2 guard stood beyond the 3 point baseline waiting and waiting to touch the ball that seldom came their way. Now there is Langston Galloway doing what Langston does with the approval of the coach. His job is to shoot but how can you win if you cannot defend your man Langston? I don't mean to pick on Galloway he is a nice man but I can pick on management and the coach for not knowing how to create a winning team. Part of what has gone wrong with the Pistons is coaching. Why is it that NBA coaches especially at Detroit seem to have no creativity? Golden State won several championships because they had a unique group of exceptionally smart players who could somehow make long range jump shots.they had a coaching staff that also knew they needed complimentary players to make it all work. Teams without the type of talent of GS including the Pistons tried to copy that style. Plus the Pistons had Drummond who could never fit that style.

It bothers me that Casey is that type of coach. He hasn't had the talent needed to play like Golden State but still copied that system. Piston Players have had no individual role to play because the coach did not give them one. There has been no leader that I could find in any Piston team since Billups. Some of the players I mentioned in my response to dX do have those qualities who will be available in this next draft. I am sure some of you have players in mind who possess personalities that prove they can fill a role and sacrifice for the team. Management needs to start thinking of the TEAM not individuals. I am still scratching my head over the pick Detroit made in last year's draft. What were they thinking? They needed a strong athlete bigger player who could defend and didn't need to score to feel successful as a player. Now that they have made that pick, what do they do with the player they drafted? How did he fit the rest of the players on the team last season? What was the Pistons long term plan for success? They didn't have a plan. The pick they made was a long shot attempt to draft a future offensive scorer. Did they really know much about that player? Had that player ever been part of a winning team and if so what was that player's role on his former team? The great trades the Pistons made involving Ben Wallace, Bill Laimbeer etc showed the people in charge were "thinkers". Management also selected coaches who could mold a team into something special based on the skills sets each player offered for the team. Rodman filled a role and he did it in a fantastic way. He offered incredible energy. OK coach you want me to stop that guy - "DONE". We need players with character not copycat players who all play with the same style.

How can you win when you have no player on the team that wants to or can play good defense? Casey went into the playoffs with the Bucks placing his selected players on the court and nobody could defend any player on the Bucks team. Then no adjustments were made in that entire series because Casey had rid the team of any players who could defend. Then after the playoff loss he mentions that the Pistons need to get stronger on defense. So they then failed to draft a strong defender or bring in any strong defenders the next season. Why didn't anyone who was working with the Pistons at that time know by mid season the year Detroit played the Bucks in the playoffs that they would not be able to win one game against any NBA playoff team if they did back into the playoffs? Many of us knew that fact by mid season but the owner, front office and head coach didn't know that they didn't know. People in charge not only need to pick well in the draft and have a real long term TEAM plan but you have to have smart people in charge of the front office who will hire the right coaches to help create a wining team. It will be very difficult to accomplish what I would like to see Piston management finally do but drifting without and objective is not working and fans are turned off with Piston management more than anything.

Sorry for the long post Sparma. I was going to keep it short but once again wrote too long of a post. Thanks for your efforts on this forum.

[Sparma]

Memory is faint, so I wanted to do a bit of checking on Laimbeer as part of a coterie of players.

As point of reference, Drummond scores a PER of 22.1 with the Pistons, significantly better than any of the Bad Boys on the two championship teams (what??!), but not quite as good as Wood, and just a bit better than Rose. Something's off there! Drummond didn't do that well with WS or WS/ per 48 with the Pistons this year, although he has in the past.

We know that the Bad Boys were a deep, deep, team with several frontline players. Weirdly, Adrian Dantley scores the highest PER of any Pistons those two years, at 18.1. That must have been a tough trade to make! Of the 1st time champs, Vinnie's at the top (17.3), followed by Isiah (17.1), Dumars, Laimbeer, and Rodman. Laimbeer's tops in WS, followed by Rodman, with Isiah and Dumars tied (it looks like Dantley would have been tops in a full season). Dantley's first in WS/48, followed by Rodman, who leads Laimbeer. Leaving Dantley out of it, Isiah comes in tied for sixth (!) among regulars [also behind Drummond's number this year].

The next championship is similar, except that Dantley doesn't play with them at all. Isiah is best in PER at 17.3, just ahead with Dumars, with Laimbeer tied for third with Aguirre, and Rodman next. In WS, Laimbeer comes in first, a little ahead of Rodman, and Dumars. Isiah is fourth, a little ahead of Salley, Aquirre, and Edwards. Rodman wins in WS per 48, with Laimbeer close behind. Weirdly, Isiah does quite poorly with WS per 48 [also finishing behind Drummond's pedestrian number from this season].

Crazily, the biggest takeaway I'd have in 2020 it's that that's how you show try to build a roster today, with several real good players, and great depth. Seems impossible when you think of all the legendary names gathered. But if you remove the names, and think of gathering players with that level of statistical performance, it does seem possible for a team like Detroit.

[Sparma]

I hear you (and it's good to hear from you), but context matters.

Roger Maris did ok with the Indians, but was traded on to KC, where he was pretty good. Traded to the Yankees, he won two MVPs in a row. Seems to have had a sour personality too. Looking back in 1980, he said: "They acted as though I was doing something wrong, poisoning the record books or something. Do you know what I have to show for 61 home runs? Nothing. Exactly nothing."

[Say what?]

Drummond's not a natural leader, and he'd probably need to be the third best, even fourth best, player on a team to really contribute to a championship contender. And his likely fat contract (even if it ends up being a "mere" 20 mil) makes that improbable. But I'd like to seem him get the chance.

Laimbeer and B. Wallace weren't lighting up the league before coming here. Laimbeer became ordinary again after the team peaked. And in six seasons (upon leaving the D) Ben had one season over the league average of 15 PER, at 15.8 when he came back to Detroit. Am I stuck on a stats rather than their intangibles? Their knack for winning slipped away quickly once they moved past their physical peaks and no longer had the right support.

Drummond has had one winning season, and one .500 season, so he's hardly won the mantle of "winner." In the right context though, he could be really valuable. And the Pistons felt his absence big time as soon as he left, immediately moving from being pretty bad to being awful, Wood's heroics notwithstanding.

Remember Terry Pluto's "The Curse of Rocky Colavito" about how the Indians tumbled once they traded him to Detroit? Well, I'm with you to this extent: I don't foresee a book about the "The Curse of Andre Drummond" about the negative impact of his trade to Cleveland. In fact, I'm hoping we move upward in the next five years.

In any case, you're to be commended for going in and watching that stuff, including our much-debated AD.

**

[Lemonpen:]

Dre has seldom met the standard.  Aww screw it, never met the standard, because consistency matters.  Guys in Murph's list are miles closer despite their pay.  Insult Alert,
AD can't carry Horford jock.

IMHO Dre enjoys the trappings afforded by membership  far more than success.

Good luck and good riddance.
[/quote]

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