Nobody on Cleveland's team good enough to get Johnson excited about what he does best - play defense. Don't worry all you haters of Johnson, he is a free agent. The Pistons will start again with a new 18 year old small forward

[cool breeze]

I see many of you zeroed in on Johnson's defects in this big game between Detroit and Cleveland last night. I watched the first half of the Philly-Suns game and noticed that the combination of Ayton (who got in early foul trouble) and Holmes ($1.6Mil contract) sure caused Embid problems in the paint for the first half. I haven't watched the 2nd half yet but it was like night and day between how those two players competed with Embid and the Drummond's last humbling performance against the Philly center.

I have never been a Suns fan but am warming up being there is no long term hope for our Pistons. I must stop beating a dead horse. So last night while watching the Suns I took a peak at their payroll and roster composition. No wonder Suns fans are excited about the future. No wonder so many former Piston fans do not follow NBA basketball anymore. According to NBADRAFTNET the Suns are listed as the team who has a good chance of getting the 2nd overall pick in the next draft. But even if they don't take a look at their young roster full of promising young talent who are all getting a lot of experience this season.

1. Devin Booker - 21 - signed up for 4 years
2. DeAndre Ayton - 20 - signed up for 4 years
3. Josh Jackson - 21 - signed for 3 years
4. Mikal Bridges - 22 - signed for 4 years

But I am liking the Suns back up center a lot and he has a one year contract totaling $1.6M. He is 25 years old. The Suns bought out 4 players who will be off their payroll after this season. So they will have money to upgrade their current roster. By adding another high draft pick perhaps one of the 3 highly talented Duke players next summer and the Suns young players will all bond together by playing together and learning from losing a lot of games. This beautiful strategy was created by Ryan McDonough who was fired a few weeks ago by the Suns idiot owner Sarver. This group of players are really talented high basketball IQ guys who were highly rated college players not the players who are selected where the Pistons usually draft when they do have a first round pick. I can only imagine how Booker would have done if he had been drafted by the Pistons. Booker like Mitchell were drafted where the Pistons usually pick. But another factor that determines failure or success for players on their first contracts is who the vets are on that team and who is coaching those young players. Pope and Johnson have been unlucky in that regard.

It is likely that the Pistons will draft a small forward with their first round pick. That player will of course get a good dose of dysfunction by playing with the Pistons Big 5. Then you will all be zeroing in on all the flaws of that new player and admiring the Big 5 who will be in Detroit for eternity. By the way, our Pistons might have slaughtered Cleveland last night but they will likely get the overall first round pick next summer and be right back in business. Chicago will be selecting someone good as well. But we have the Big 5 so there is nothing to worry about. Enjoy those players. But when AD goes up against real talented big men, he will be AWOL. But you all will forget about that because he sure can beat up on a teams like Cleveland who have no reliable center. The best thing the Pistons could do is trade AD for draft picks and and expiring contracts. Reduce the overall payroll. The Suns payroll this year includes a lot of expiring contracts but only totals $106,333,000. Meanwhile, our brilliant owner has a total payroll this season of $125 Million and the following players will be leaving after this season if not signed.
1. Smith - $6M - age 30
2. Johnson - $3.9M - age 22
3. Bullock - 2.4 M - age 27
4. Calderon - $2.4M - age 37
5. Pachulla - $2.4M - age 34
6. Ellenson - $1.8M - age 21

So the Pistons have wasted their investment on Johnson and Ellenson who are only 22 and 21 years old. Who needs young talent anyway? Only 19 million comes off the books and includes 6 players. Meanwhile, the core group will be back which will provide much comfort for all fans who bash Johnson and Ellenson.

1. Blake Griffin - $34.2M - age with ending salary around 38M four years from now
2. Andre Drummond - $27M
3. Reggie Jackson - $18M
4. Jon Leuer - $9.5M
5. Galloway - $7.3

Total Piston payroll for 18-19 is $125,013,000

So all of you Piston fans who look at Johnson's defects very carefully while ignoring the low basketball IQs of the Pistons Big 5, have fun with that ritual. You are not looking at the bleak big picture for our team. Centers like Ellenson might take 5 or 6 years to become good NBA players. There is a shortage of centers who can shoot from distance. Just throwing him away to me makes no sense. But in Johnson's case, he is not a good fit with this team. He will excel playing with smarter players who like playing a hard nosed style which is what the Pistons used to be identified as having that characteristic until Tom Gores bought the team and returned to the Teal formula of silly ball soft type basketball. Why not wear pink uniforms and have trans gender cheer leaders? The direction this owner has gone leads directly into the toilet.

[Murph]

Good game last night.  Stanley Johnson....just when you think he has it all figured out...  


Sparma...yes, it would be great to split with the Rockets.

You know who's starting and playing very well for Houston?...James Ennis III.  We all complain about the Pistons not bringing back Tolliver and Moreland for cheap.  But the 3rd guy who played well for us last season that we didn't bring back was Ennis.  

Ennis signed an inexpensive contract of $1.6 million a year with the Rockets.  That looks like a bargain compared that to GRIII's contract of $4.1 million a year.  And while I like GRIII, I might have preferred Ennis III.

[Sparma]

Impressive visuals, Oracle!

Credit to Don for being incredibly loyal. To wit: Stanley's shooting stroke's been screwed up not by one, but by two coaching staffs. His extremely high basketball IQ has been corrupted ... by his teammates.

I wouldn't be shocked if Don turns out to roughly on target and Stanley ends up excelling in a niche [off the bench] for a team other than the Pistons. More likely though that he continues this maddening mixture of inspired, high energy, play and dragging a team down with dismal distance shooting and self-inflicted TOs for the next decade.

According to Don is so far off the charts that LeBron may fear facing that level of Cranium 

Stanley Johnson...

[Oracle]

According to Don is so far off the charts that LeBron may fear facing that level of Cranium 

Stanley Johnson...

[Sparma]

Happy with the win even if it's a little of a letdown to win by 11 after being up by 30.

Reggie B's smooth on O. If it comes down to him or Stanley J, I want them to keep Reggie B.

Great first half by Stanley. Not much of a second half. One thing I've noticed with him is that a good stretch by him almost invariably leads to a bad stretch as he tries to do too much, whether because his confidence is up or because he feels he now has licence to go crazy. He dribbles into 3 guys > TO. Puts up a brick from 3. Puts up an airball from 3 (after I praised him at half for not shooting from 3). Working hard after a miss or two, he makes a basket, then promptly turns on the ref and gets a tech. Casey seemed to have seen enough at that point Not sure he made it back into the game. 3-9 overall, 0-2 from 3. Terrific first half though. Enigmatic guy. If he gets a league average salary (or less) on the right team, watch out, because he can be a dynamic player off the bench for years. If he gets the big payday, combined with a big head, watch out then too, because he'll be a head scratcher for years, showing occasional flashes along with plenty of frustrating stuff. I doubt he'll ever become a good shooter from distance, but at his age he should have incremental improvement ahead, and that should be enough for him to earn time to showcase his D, his rushes up the court, and his solid passing. He's going to be interesting to follow, be it with Detroit or elsewhere.

Pistons are easily the leader in techs.

Houston twice, coming up. Hope for one.

[Sparma]

Three impressive rushes up the floor for Stanley, the first on a hard fought TO. And no 3 point attempts. Way to play, Stanley!

Some rough going against a zone. Griffin's got a shot against it, but the team's lack of creativity really comes to the fore against the zone. Nice to see Calderon stand in place, then circle quickly to the middle, trying to break down the D without the ball, even if nothing came of it.

[Oracle]

And I mean REALLY BAD!

This is the perfect game for the Pistons after a long layoff to "tune up" for some real action.

Don, I'd hate to see your posts if you were a Cavs fan 

How bad are the Cavs? I'm likely to sit the rest of this game out and watch paint dry, or re-read some of Don's posts unless they put in some youngsters.

Hell, everybody needs to eat when the feasting is this good 

[Oracle]

No, we aren't in any danger yet, but the game devolved into a BRICK fest!

Both teams chucking up horrible shot after horrible shot.

I do love the way Drummond is shooting FT's like a normal human 

[cool breeze]

"So you do not believe Henry Ellenson was not handled properly to give him an opportunity to develop Murph? Ellenson is still very young. He has a good shooting stroke and has quickness. Why did the Pistons just sit him at the end of the bench for his entire stay in Detroit? Why didn't he play every night for the past two seasons for Detroit's affiliate team? Nobody knows now who works for the Pistons or any fan because this guy has had very little experience. Ellenson, like many other young kids who have been drafted by the Pistons, have been allowed to waste away while the fans watch older 2nd rate players perform. They sign Jon Leuer to $10 Million dollar long term contracts. I am just trying to point out that it is very clear to many basketball people that the Detroit Pistons do not have a vision or plan that ever makes any sense. If Henry had no chance of success in the NBA then why did they draft him? There must have been some potential because a lot of teams were interested in Henry at the time of the draft. If you do not get what you need as a young player from the team that drafts you, then you will fail and try to pick up the pieces after you are finally released.?


Don...I will try to answer you're questions as I see it.  But it's difficult when you don't actually read my responses.

1.  I believe Ellenson was mishandled by SVG, and was not given an opportunity to develop.

2.  I don't  know why SVG just sat him at the end of the bench and didn't play him.  Maybe it was because he sucks.

3.  I agree that in the recent past, the Pistons have ruined or given away many of their draft picks.  And it hasn't just been SVG. Other coaches and GM's have ruined or given away our picks also.  I think this is one of the reasons Casey was hired.  In Toronto Casey had a history of developing their own picks...Valancuianas, Saikam, VanFleet, Anunaby, Wright, Powell, etc.  Hopefully, Casey will do the same thing with the Pistons over time.

4.  I don't know why SVG drafted Ellenson.  I wish he hadn't.

5.  Even though he was mishandled, I don't think Ellenson had much potential to begin with.  I think he was a blown pick from the start.

Thanks for your response Murph. I respect your opinion. You you have been right on other players in the past. I just remember the first regular season game the Pistons played in the new arena last season where Henry looked exceptionally well and scored something like 17 points. My view is that he is an extremely young big man who has been around for awhile but has not played in real games enough to ever get his timing down relating to the NBA game. But you have heard that from me maybe too much.

It is hard for a lot of fans to bond with NBA players these days which is the fault of both the players and the owners. I like the idea of drafting and for management to take it serious relating to developing them until they get enough confidence to be successful. You need to start with the right players of course so that is where we disagree relating to the Henry Ellenson situation. Still even if the head coach Casey thinks Henry sucks, why not throw him a bone and allow him to compete in the G League this season instead of what he is doing now. Sitting at the end of the bench or in back of the bench in street clothes has to be the worst thing that any player can feel as a young kid. He is a failure in everyone's eyes so he needs to use that as incentive to prove the fans and the coach wrong. We have several rejected players who do that now to the Pistons especially Spencer Dinwiddie.

[Murph]

"So you do not believe Henry Ellenson was not handled properly to give him an opportunity to develop Murph? Ellenson is still very young. He has a good shooting stroke and has quickness. Why did the Pistons just sit him at the end of the bench for his entire stay in Detroit? Why didn't he play every night for the past two seasons for Detroit's affiliate team? Nobody knows now who works for the Pistons or any fan because this guy has had very little experience. Ellenson, like many other young kids who have been drafted by the Pistons, have been allowed to waste away while the fans watch older 2nd rate players perform. They sign Jon Leuer to $10 Million dollar long term contracts. I am just trying to point out that it is very clear to many basketball people that the Detroit Pistons do not have a vision or plan that ever makes any sense. If Henry had no chance of success in the NBA then why did they draft him? There must have been some potential because a lot of teams were interested in Henry at the time of the draft. If you do not get what you need as a young player from the team that drafts you, then you will fail and try to pick up the pieces after you are finally released.?


Don...I will try to answer you're questions as I see it.  But it's difficult when you don't actually read my responses.

1.  I believe Ellenson was mishandled by SVG, and was not given an opportunity to develop.

2.  I don't  know why SVG just sat him at the end of the bench and didn't play him. Maybe it was because he sucks.

3.  I agree that in the recent past, the Pistons have ruined or given away many of their draft picks.  And it hasn't just been SVG. Other coaches and GM's have ruined or given away our picks also.  I think this is one of the reasons Casey was hired.  In Toronto Casey had a history of developing their own picks...Valancuianas, Saikam, VanFleet, Anunaby, Wright, Powell, etc.  Hopefully, Casey will do the same thing with the Pistons over time.

4.  I don't know why SVG drafted Ellenson.  I wish he hadn't.

5.  Even though he was mishandled, I don't think Ellenson had much potential to begin with.  I think he was a blown pick from the start.

[cool breeze]

Drummond:
"Andre Drummond is currently averaging career-bests in scoring and rebounding, putting up 18.9 points and 16.2 boards per game for the Pistons. He is also the league’s leader in rebounding, ahead of Miami Heat center Hassan Whiteside and Dallas Mavericks big man DeAndre Jordan.

Furthermore, the 25-year-old New York native is making 1.5 blocks and 1.1 steals on a nightly basis, truly establishing himself as one of the league’s elite big men." - Reggie Jackson admits Pistons sometimes take Andre Drummond for granted

All of that and he can't get one rave review from Don, it's all negative all the time.

Stanley:
Don basically says that ONLY Stanley can save us, he's got everything a franchise player needs to lead the Pistons into the future.

Sparma says hold your horses, one or two games do not a star make.

In reality, Sparma is 100% correct, coming off the bench and doing well doesn't make you HOF material, however, I do prefer that recent level of play by Stanley over the crap he was shoveling previously.

No NBA team wins with low basketball IQ players. Oracle I have made positive statements relating to AD this year. Maybe you haven't noticed. AD has been playing a lot harder for sure. But I would never build a team around Andre Drummond. I would build a team around Anthony Davis and others. AD is not a really smart basketball player but he is much better so far this season. But please remember what AD has done in every season he has played for the Pistons. AD takes the last half of the season off when he plays defense. Will that change this year? I sure hope so and will be really happy for him and all of us fans. but how can we forget the past? How can anyone get very excited if you are actually watching these games?

I stand by my previous statements that there is no evidence so far based upon the games this season that Detroit is a threat to any above average NBA team especially in a playoff situation. Imagine if the pistons make the playoffs and an opposing coach has the time to create a game plan to beat the Pistons. Casey brings in his insane rotations involving Bullock, Smith and Jackson or Galloway, Smith and Jackson. Teams will go right at AD in the paint in transition if AD gets back. He will get in foul trouble for every game if he tries to play defense. But I think it is still a long shot for the Pistons to make the playoffs. They need real basketball players, not specialists who cannot play any phase of the game but shoot the ball.

I talk about Stanley Johnson because he has the potential to be a complete basketball player. He is a complete basketball player now with the exception of shooting at a high percentage. He is only 22 years old unlike the other players in the rotation. And Johnson has exhibited an extremely high basketball IQ throughout his career before arriving in Detroit to play with some of his current teammates who have lower basketball IQs. That means a lot. On another team, Johnson is going to shine. What I am upset about is the fact that Johnson will not be part of the Piston's future because of financial considerations. The Pistons front office will have to continue to scrape the bottom of the barrel to acquire players who are in low demand to fill out their roster because they have contracts returning featuring BG, AD,RJ, JL, LG. I really do not like watching any of the Big 5. Next season the Suns will have a superior basketball team over the Pistons. Memphis will be superior as another small market team. The Pistons ignore the value of suffering for several seasons with young players who are drafted high in the draft. The Pistons will continue to give away their draft picks and when they do make picks it will never will involve picking one of the top 5 picks in the draft. We are dealing with Dumb and Dumber relating to the Pistons leadership among those in the Front office as well as among those 5 highly paid athletes who will be around for several years to come. Sorry that I am so negative but I watch the games closely and see how players have no clue how to play organized defense. And the overall effort on defense is very weak at times among the starting players rather than the guys who come off the bench. Wouldn't you expect more effort out of a $32 million dollar man on defense than a player making fringe money? There is a lack of concentration as well as just knowing when and when not to shoot that 3 point contested shot that Mr. Casey is in love with. And I doubt that many of the highest paid athletes spend any time preparing mentally for each opponent. I want more. I want the players who want to win at all cost. Our players do not hate to lose. They are used to it.

We Piston fans have other options if everything goes bad again. Michigan has a good basketball team. The college game is much more exciting to watch as a fan. That is why a lot of former or current NBA players don't watch any NBA games on television. The current version of the NBA is a fraud or fake entertainment type basketball like the Harlem Globetrotters games.

Ah well it appears that it will not be too long until the politically correct people who run sports will outlaw the kickoff return in football. Just too dangerous. I played football but wonder how in hell anyone can legally tackle anyone head on if the guy with the ball gets down real low to the ground and leads with his helmet. You would have to make contact with the offensive player with your head unless you jump over him and grab him from behind. Maybe all we need is more female head coaches in college and NFL football. They will be able to figure out complex issues in the modern game much better than men. And even though life is not fair, anything that appears on television must be fair. Our NBA commissioner is a very fair man who is concerned with fairness so we are really lucky as fans to see these changes in how players can defend. Pretty soon it will be law that players who play defense on the perimeter will have to tie one arm behind their backs when squaring up to prevent dribble penetration. The Commissioner needs to get the scoring up to 150 points a game. Bring in more female coaches and get the scoring up. Maybe hire more pretty women on the football sidelines and on the arena floor to get their insight. So many changes are needed. We can all agree that something needs to be done to ruin the game even more. Why because for some basketball is boring. We need to bring in more people who currently hate basketball to convert them into basketball fans.

How about the public school systems in America where students are calling out teachers who cannot create enough excitement in the classroom. If the students chant "boring, boring, boring" which they are now doing, the teacher has to come up with something clever to keep the students quiet and happy. I never thought my Chemistry classes were very exciting except for the lab classes. Who would want to be a teacher now? Allowing students to break small sometimes stupid rules gives them confidence to break big ones. Great job being done by most school boards who are loaded with political nut cases who want to move on up in politics. And the administrators are milk toast pleasers as well who seldom have the teachers backs. Who do the students fear when they are thinking about doing something really bad? Some good kids are getting a lousy education and must live in fear.

When you are a fan of a crappy team sometimes you need to talk about other things so I wrote this to make you all feel better about being a Piston fan and not a public school teacher. Don't forget that the Pistons are playing Cleveland. that will be a matchup nobody would want to miss unless you want to watch the games in Maui.

[cool breeze]

"No wonder Henry Ellenson is in street clothes. He has never had a role model since arriving and has been given no direction by any coaching staff. Henry should have stayed in college for another two years. Is he finished in the NBA before he even got started? Oh I forgot, Henry did not do well in the summer league games so why bother sending him to the G League so he can play every night? Basketball is a game of confidence. Witnessing this experience with our young draftees have had over the years is disheartening." - Don

Hmmm...there's a lot to unpack in this one paragraph on Ellenson.  No, he never had a role model, and he was given no direction by SVG, after Van Gundy drafted him.

Yes, he most definitely should have stayed in college another 2 or 3 years, but that isn't the fault of the Pistons.  

Yes, based on his performance to date, he might be finished in the NBA. Although more than likely some other team will take a flyer on him for not much money.

Yes, he should have been sent to the G-League years ago, before it was too late.  But now that he's lost confidence, he represents a project.  And to be truthful, he probably always was a project.

In the end however, none of this was Casey's fault.  Casey didn't ask for him to be drafted, and by the time Casey got here, the damage was done.  Casey is smart to move on from Ellenson.  Ellenson's spot on the roster will be filled by another young draft pick who has his confidence in tact and still has potential.



I don't think Drummond is the best rebounder to ever play in the NBA.  But I do think that by the end of his career, if he stays healthy, he will be one of the top 10 rebounders to ever play in the NBA...maybe top 5.


Great move for Casey to invite Dave Bing to address the Pistons.  While Bing isn't a Bad Boy, he is a class act, and it's a great way for the current players to get introduced to the history of the Pistons, and the legacies of former great Pistons

So you do not believe Henry Ellenson was not handled properly to give him an opportunity to develop Murph? Ellenson is still very young. He has a good shooting stroke and has quickness. Why did the Pistons just sit him at the end of the bench for his entire stay in Detroit? Why didn't he play every night for the past two seasons for Detroit's affiliate team? Nobody knows now who works for the Pistons or any fan because this guy has had very little experience. Ellenson, like many other young kids who have been drafted by the Pistons, have been allowed to waste away while the fans watch older 2nd rate players perform. They sign Jon Leuer to $10 Million dollar long term contracts. I am just trying to point out that it is very clear to many basketball people that the Detroit Pistons do not have a vision or plan that ever makes any sense. If Henry had no chance of success in the NBA then why did they draft him? There must have been some potential because a lot of teams were interested in Henry at the time of the draft. If you do not get what you need as a young player from the team that drafts you, then you will fail and try to pick up the pieces after you are finally released.

Meanwhile other teams are more patient because they have solid vet players on their roster who help players like Ellenson. We have none since Tolliver left. I am thinking of Memphis who not only have a superior scouting team but also know how to develop their players. The Spurs are another organization that really works with their draft picks and slowly makes them into players who can make a difference on any team. Notice this season thatMemphis is currently leading the Southwest Division with a 10-5 record. They do not have players like Jackson, Galloway, Leuer of Smith on their roster. Instead the Grizzles acquired Anderson out of UCLA who was coached by Pop and his assistant coaches. Anderson is a high IQ basketball player. But the guy I really love to watch is Dillon Brooks who was stolen in the 2nd round of the draft and made their rotation last season. Brooks was an amazing player in college and MVP in the PAC12. He was clutch and as tough as they come. Memphis has Gasol and Conley which they have spent their money on. But Memphis would not consider signing players like Leuer, Smith, Jackson, or Galloway not to mention signing Griffin for $32 Mil. If we don't call out this inept owner and his front office how will they ever acquire a work ethic to match the successful teams in the NBA?

I have seen Thomas play in only one game so far. This guy has some potential. He was an outstanding defender in college and a real unselfish team orientated player who has a great heart. I just don't believe in sitting young players until their contracts expire and then going through the motions in the draft to pick another player who will never be developed. I see good potential in Henry Ellenson. I would bet my money on him in game over what Jon Leuer can bring to the table. But who couldn't guess that Casey would eventually insert another bad player who had a long term contract into regular season games while keeping the low contract player in street clothes? Got to play that $10 million dollar a year guy along with Galloway, Smith, and Jackson as many minutes as possible. None of those players can be traded before their contracts expire because their contracts are ridiculous or bordering on insane based on their value as players. But somehow Casey will create his rotations to make sure they are part of the Pistons future. We have a second rate basketball team while the rebuilding teams are catching up quickly to the Pistons. I wish our Pistons were rebuilding and the front office could show that they are at least half as smart as every other NBA team in existence. All we can do is hope that the current players on the Piston roster who have those big contracts can all get a brain transplant to become smarter and more dedicated basketball players. For those of you who are hopeful because the Pistons have won a few games, please remember that this is the part of the season where these same players play at peak performance early in the season. These same players start a downward slide after Christmas. That is their history. Meanwhile, other teams have players who actually perform better in the 2nd half of the season.

The Pistons have nothing to lose if they insert Henry Ellenson into every game for at least 6 minutes. Give him 5 lousy minutes and adjust your dysfunctional rotation system featuring small ball with the worst defensive small players in the league Mr. Casey. And the coach has nothing to lose if he brought Thomas in for that same amount of time for every basketball game. Don't wait until the last 10 games like SVG used to do.

[Murph]

"No wonder Henry Ellenson is in street clothes. He has never had a role model since arriving and has been given no direction by any coaching staff. Henry should have stayed in college for another two years. Is he finished in the NBA before he even got started? Oh I forgot, Henry did not do well in the summer league games so why bother sending him to the G League so he can play every night? Basketball is a game of confidence. Witnessing this experience with our young draftees have had over the years is disheartening." - Don

Hmmm...there's a lot to unpack in this one paragraph on Ellenson.  No, he never had a role model, and he was given no direction by SVG, after Van Gundy drafted him.

Yes, he most definitely should have stayed in college another 2 or 3 years, but that isn't the fault of the Pistons.  

Yes, based on his performance to date, he might be finished in the NBA. Although more than likely some other team will take a flyer on him for not much money.

Yes, he should have been sent to the G-League years ago, before it was too late.  But now that he's lost confidence, he represents a project.  And to be truthful, he probably always was a project.

In the end however, none of this was Casey's fault.  Casey didn't ask for him to be drafted, and by the time Casey got here, the damage was done.  Casey is smart to move on from Ellenson.  Ellenson's spot on the roster will be filled by another young draft pick who has his confidence in tact and still has potential.



I don't think Drummond is the best rebounder to ever play in the NBA.  But I do think that by the end of his career, if he stays healthy, he will be one of the top 10 rebounders to ever play in the NBA...maybe top 5.


Great move for Casey to invite Dave Bing to address the Pistons.  While Bing isn't a Bad Boy, he is a class act, and it's a great way for the current players to get introduced to the history of the Pistons, and the legacies of former great Pistons

[Oracle]

If you have a player like this, you don't look at what he doesn't do well, you look at what pieces you need to put around him, and if anything, the Pistons have failed in that mission.

"Andre Drummond is the only player in the league to be averaging 18+ points, and 16 rebounds per game. I have no hesitation that Andre Drummond is the best rebounder to have ever played in the NBA so far, and that is absolutely critical for the Detroit Pistons". - Three reasons the Detroit Pistons will be just fine

[Oracle]

Drummond:
"Andre Drummond is currently averaging career-bests in scoring and rebounding, putting up 18.9 points and 16.2 boards per game for the Pistons. He is also the league’s leader in rebounding, ahead of Miami Heat center Hassan Whiteside and Dallas Mavericks big man DeAndre Jordan.

Furthermore, the 25-year-old New York native is making 1.5 blocks and 1.1 steals on a nightly basis, truly establishing himself as one of the league’s elite big men." - Reggie Jackson admits Pistons sometimes take Andre Drummond for granted

All of that and he can't get one rave review from Don, it's all negative all the time.

Stanley:
Don basically says that ONLY Stanley can save us, he's got everything a franchise player needs to lead the Pistons into the future.

Sparma says hold your horses, one or two games do not a star make.

In reality, Sparma is 100% correct, coming off the bench and doing well doesn't make you HOF material, however, I do prefer that recent level of play by Stanley over the crap he was shoveling previously.

[Sparma]

Good stuff, BallinD.

Agreed that the margin of effort is slim, putting a premium on coaching (adjustments).

Also, only when Kennard's back and on, and Bullock's consistently on can the team hope for the kind of quality distance shooting that the system demands.

Relatedly, I agree to the importance of using Blake as part of the mix, one that includes the Dre-Reggie P&R action, as well as Ish's change of pace stuff.

Stanley. Stupendous D on Kawhi. And he hit two big threes down the stretch. Still, I'm stalling before jumping on the bandwagon, partly simply because I think Bayesians hit it on the head in emphasizing giving due weight to prior probabilities. He's at 8.76 PER, with the league average set at 15. That doesn't tell the whole story but it does tell part of the story. He can be a valuable rotation guy, not only because of his stellar D, but because he does a number of things well including (often) passing. He's found a niche off the bench, also with improved shooting recently. As Lemonpen said, that itself raises an issue. You want him to go up against the Kawhis of the league on D, but he hasn't been able to carry his weight offensively with the first unit, so how do you arrange his minutes.

He's still superyoung. Maybe his improved shooting will prove to be the real deal.

I think it's tremendously difficult to really improve at anything, once you've been at it a while. That's not only my observation concerning others, but my own experience.

In the NBA, maybe improving at FTs is the most straightforward thing, being an isolated skill. Karl Malone showed tremendous career improvement; our own Dre really impressed with his improvement there.

Shooting from the floor, especially from distance, is tougher to improve because there are a lot of moving parts. Grant Hill and MJ improved as shooters. Jason Kidd went from being woeful from distance to being really productive.

Apart from tremendous skill, those three all had a high basketball IQ. I'm wondering if that really increases the odds of improving floor skills.

Brandon Knight's a smart guy, with a low basketball IQ, in my estimation. I'm not surprised he could never get beyond his consistently poor assist to TO ratio, even when healthy. Stanley's problem isn't merely poor shooting form, but showing horrible judgment in when and how much to shoot. I'm not confident that's going to change anytime soon.

By contrast, Spencer Dinwiddie (coming off a serious injury) and Khris Middleton immediately demonstrated an ability to read situations quickly and to respond aptly. In Spencer's case I'd didn't know if he had the speed, post-injury, to keep up in the NBA. But I'm thinking Dinwiddie and Middleton's significant improvement paired with that high basketball IQ. I'm venturing quite a generalization, but I'm positing that there's a significant correlation between high basketball IQ and serious improvement on the floor (FTs may be an exception) in the NBA.

If so, I don't think that bodes well for Stanley. I'd be superexcited about him if he'd been drafted as a second rounder; his status as number 8, in front of Booker, especially, but also reportedly instead of 4 (?!) Boston 1st rounders, continues to make him a disappointment for me, even after a stellar game. Time to get over that, I suppose. That said, I've got high hopes he can be a valuable rotation guy the rest of the way.I

Sparma, I think they can but a few things are necessary first, IMO.

From the player comments, there is a lot of work to be done here in D-Town.  

1. The mentality of playing hard and smart consistently is simply not there Yet; Confidence?
2. Coaching schemes have to be right because margin of error is small.  Experimentation is in play until he figures it out; with SJ and LG and GR3 and Ish w/Weggie.  He's gotta give Luke a shot when he gets back; he's the key to unlocking the magic of the 3-guard lineups.
3. A better way to use Blake has to be designed, as a side-action off Dre-Weggie P&R, as alternative to bully-ball designed into the play, rub-screen, double screens on double-teams.
4. More Dre-Blake or Blake-Dre P&R, same with Bullock.
5. Reprise the Toronto game by ASSIGNING SJ to the best wing player, don't wait till he has already gone off for 20 points in a few minutes.  Don't switch when SJ is guarding player  (Dre, Weggie)

Isn't it weird that the next game (vs Cleveland) isn't until Monday, Nov. 19?  Someone goofed in scheduling.

BallinD, at first I read your question as "can this team be really good" and my answer was simply going to be: No [if really good means something like hitting Wise's purportedly reasonable expectation of 55].  But I see that your question actually is "[c]an this team really be good if...?"  Yes, I think so, if good means having a solid winning record.  I'm not inclined to revise expectations at this point from the 43, 44 that you and I predicted though.  If all goes well, they might approach 50.  In any event, it's fun to see them play with spirit, play for their coach (something I don't think the team ever did for SVG), and get so excited at the end.

If it’s better to be lucky than good, we’re happy campers till the next game; but...

Like me you want more.  Can this team really be good if we have Luke on board and the dreaded injury bug stays away?  Is there a trade in the works? If we are 8th in def rating and 23rd in offensive rating, can we take this soft stretch in the schedule to iron out the kinks?  Go Stones!

[cool breeze]

looking back trying to be objective with the view of a historian, nobody can give this owner, any of the front office decision makers or all of the head coaches the Pistons have had since Flip was fired. The trade involving Billups for Iverson started the downfall. The signing of Charlie V was a sign that the Pistons would go into a cycle of softness where the Pistons should have brought back the Teal uniforms to truly identify the lack of leadership from players to front office to the owner, Tom Gores. Remember when Mr. Gores promised better half time entertainment? No Piston fan could identify with that. Since the end of the Bad Boys glory days where the Pistons hit a big valley, to a new beginning with the trade involving Ben Wallace where blue collar ruled again, fans have absorbed a lot of pain and thrills. The valley dipping into hell for Piston fans is due to a combination of bone headed decisions that has made the Pistons a laughingstock. The first signs of softness came when Dumars signed Charlie V and Ben Gordon after the trade involving Mr. BigShot. But worst of all was the change in Piston ownership where pre game and half time entertainment was the most exciting thrill any fan could have who attended a Piston basketball game could look forward to and became worse than the era of the Teal. We fans have never experienced teams who have been this "soft" devoid of player leadership, owner leadership or coaching leadership.

Any successful NBA team has to have great leadership coming from at least one superstar player. The Pistons have had none. The difference between Labor James and Blake Griffin is incredible relating to leadership qualities. Blake is not a leader in any way. When things are not going well is Griffin talking to his teammates? The only player that I see who is talking when the Pistons are playing defense is Stanley Johnson is a natural born leader playing on a team where he is the 5th option. I guarantee that Johnson will one day be the leader of his team. He is not as offensively talented as Labron and others but he knows what it takes to be successful as a team because he has been the leader as a younger player who won 4 straight high school state championships while playing 5 different positions. But with Detroit, at age 22, Johnson is a fringe player on most nights because other players have been selected as the team leaders. This Piston roster is ridiculous. SVG signed a bunch of fringe players who were rejects from other NBA teams and the owner agreed to use all of the money on BG, AD, RJ, JL, LG, IS.. This is a nightmare. Tom Gores has turned the Pistons into a team with an identity that no Michigan basketball fan can identify with. Tom should have tried to buy into the Clipper ownership when the Clippers played like our Pistons play. At that time the Clippers were the farm team for the rest of the NBA. After the Harrie,Bradley, Boban trade for our $32 Million dollar shooter who never wanted to play in Detroit, why would Piston fans expect we would have a good team at any point within the next 6 years? There is no chance.

Murph wanted the Piston front office to draft Kemba Walker back in the day after Walker won the NCAA tournament. I have been thinking a lot about what ifs and believe that Walker would have been a casualty much like Branden Knight became the scapegoat for Piston failures. Who would Walker play pick and roll with if he had been drafted. That was a another time period where Piston front office blunders with player signing decisions made it impossible for any point guard to be successful. Remember when Dumars decided to sign Jose Calderon thinking like a lot of fans that the problems were the fault of Knight because the Pistons sucked? A much younger Jose played for the Pistons at that time and nothing changed because Dumars locked in Monroe and Maxiell as the Pistons front line starters. Neither player could play pick and roll and neither player could defend any big man. Poor Maxiell was a hard working undersized player who caught Joe's eye and he never lost interest. No I expect that Dumars would have done the same deal with the Bucks and would have traded Walker for Brandon Jennings while throwing in Middleton because Joe didn't want competition for playing time with his hand selected winners.

Last night, Walker scored 60 points. Jimmy Butler blocked Walker's shot at the end and then drilled a 3 pointer to win the game for Philly. Labron James is making the Lakers into a winner. Tom Gores is looking forward to cocktail parties in LA once the fires are extinguished. He can party with the Clipper's front office staff. When you have an owner and front office that doesn't believe in blowing up a bad team to build a good team with great young players who go high in the draft, then of course as a fan you will not enjoy watching a team that has any true leaders. Players who are leaders are not always the high scoring players on the team. Too much emphasis has been placed on scoring averages and stats. Players who are leaders just hate to lose and they do all the hard work to become fundamentally sound complete players not specialists. The NBA is full of shooting specialists who are only concerned with their stats. That is why we see players on this piston team who has highly paid players who ignore teammates who are wide open at various spots on the floor and instead force contested shots. They are the players like Galloway who launch 3 pointers when their teammates are out of position allowing easy transition baskets for opponents.

The NBA is full of lazy coaches. They sign large contracts and then just throw out the basketball in practice instead of teaching players more options within a half court office. It is easy to coach a team that relies on 3 point shooting instead of working for wide open mid range shots. It takes no brain power to play this current style. Coach Casey loads his rotations with read and react type players who get it and shoot it. Who is setting the screens? Where is AD when it comes to setting screens for teammates? I never see him set a good screen. He sets the high screen but is not good at the angles required to make that screen work for the guards. Why doesn't he set screens in the paint to free the small forward at times? No the Piston offense is based on this stupid rotation of Smith, Jackson, Galloway, Blake and AD. Griffin sets some screens. Why can't AD learn how to set a screen? The head coach will continue to play BG too many minutes because he has no other option. He will play AD because AD gets some offensive rebounds. He will play RJ because RJ makes $17Mil, He will somehow fit in Jon Leuer as well and hope he has some success so some idiot will take his contract. That will never happen. And of course Lanston Galloway has to get 15 shots a game too because for some odd reason SVG just had to have him on his team. He didn't sign Tolliver to a longer contract but signed Galloway to a long contract.

Everything can be traced to the Piston front office idiots, the coaches who play the players based on the size of their contracts, and the owner who is only thinking about the entertainment business and how he can incorporate dancing and bright lights as the center theme for NBA basketball in Detroit. No more blue collar hard nosed in your face defensive type teams for our Pistons. We have a soft team featuring only one solid defender on the entire team right now. No wonder Henry Ellenson is in street clothes. He has never had a role model since arriving and has been given no direction by any coaching staff. Henry should have stayed in college for another two years. Is he finished in the NBA before he even got started? Oh I forgot, Henry did not do well in the summer league games so why bother sending him to the G League so he can play every night? Basketball is a game of confidence. Witnessing this experience with our young draftees have had over the years is disheartening. Just what is the plan Mr. Gores? Are you going to keep selling snake oil for the next 5 years? This roster is flawed. The players are below mid range. There is no leadership within the players group. The coaching staff has not shown that they can get the current players to use a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th option in the half court offense. The players have not shown that they can defend any team well in the entire NBA. Mental lapses, lack of concentration, lack of knowing the fundamentals of the game, all come out in every game. The Pistons look like a pick up type street team most of the time. The don't play as a team together very often. The Pistons remain in a deep valley since Billups was traded and Saunders was fired. Of course he was fired because he wouldn't accept the Iverson-Billups trade. We still have to feel we are blessed as fans to have experienced two different teams in our lifetimes that played the right way and only cared about winning. If you want to win you need to put in the extra work.

[BallinD]

Sparma, I think they can but a few things are necessary first, IMO.

From the player comments, there is a lot of work to be done here in D-Town.  

1. The mentality of playing hard and smart consistently is simply not there Yet; Confidence?
2. Coaching schemes have to be right because margin of error is small.  Experimentation is in play until he figures it out; with SJ and LG and GR3 and Ish w/Weggie.  He's gotta give Luke a shot when he gets back; he's the key to unlocking the magic of the 3-guard lineups.
3. A better way to use Blake has to be designed, as a side-action off Dre-Weggie P&R, as alternative to bully-ball designed into the play, rub-screen, double screens on double-teams.
4. More Dre-Blake or Blake-Dre P&R, same with Bullock.
5. Reprise the Toronto game by ASSIGNING SJ to the best wing player, don't wait till he has already gone off for 20 points in a few minutes. Don't switch when SJ is guarding player (Dre, Weggie)

Isn't it weird that the next game (vs Cleveland) isn't until Monday, Nov. 19?  Someone goofed in scheduling.

BallinD, at first I read your question as "can this team be really good" and my answer was simply going to be: No [if really good means something like hitting Wise's purportedly reasonable expectation of 55].  But I see that your question actually is "[c]an this team really be good if...?"  Yes, I think so, if good means having a solid winning record.  I'm not inclined to revise expectations at this point from the 43, 44 that you and I predicted though.  If all goes well, they might approach 50.  In any event, it's fun to see them play with spirit, play for their coach (something I don't think the team ever did for SVG), and get so excited at the end.

If it’s better to be lucky than good, we’re happy campers till the next game; but...

Like me you want more.  Can this team really be good if we have Luke on board and the dreaded injury bug stays away?  Is there a trade in the works? If we are 8th in def rating and 23rd in offensive rating, can we take this soft stretch in the schedule to iron out the kinks?  Go Stones!

[Oracle]

I stand corrected on my statement that the Pistons defense is not that good.  The Pistons defensive rating is 106.8, which is good for 7th in the league.  While 106.8 seems high, the thing is, scoring in the NBA has been increasing due to the 3 point shot.
I was surprised by that too.  Maybe Casey is having an effect.

If you read Don's posts, you'd think we were last in the league, not 7th!

Don doesn't deal in facts, he sees things no one else can see and believes them to be true.

Although I also have to confess that us being 7th was a surprise to me, I was thinking more middle of the road, but I'll take it.

So those fatally flawed lineups that Don says Casey employs evidently aren't as bad as Don thinks, Casey obviously is getting paid to do this for a reason

[lemonpen]

"FG%:  We shoot 48% between 16' & 3pt distance and 31% beyond the arc.  Unfortunately we take 6% of our shots from the former and 37% from the latter.  Whoever suggested taking one step toward the basket might be on to something."

3 point shots are worth 1.5 times more than 2 point shots.  So shooting 31% on 3 point shots is the equivalent of shooting 46.5% on 2 point shots
(not taking into account long rebounds that could lead to fast breaks the other way).

The difference between 46.5% and 48% is negligible.
Your equation is incomplete.  When you wrap a game around those numbers one must recognize the boost to the other teams efficiency from generating 7 stops each 10 possessions.  I figure the opponent will shoot >60%.  I don't particularly advocate constructing an offense around the 3pfg, but if we do, super-sub 40% shooting won't git-er-done.



"Dre:  JMO but I'm beginning to sense that this dude is likely all he will ever."

I think Drummond is still improving every season, and will continue to improve significantly defensively.  However, if this is all he will ever be, it's pretty impressive. Drummond is averaging 19 points, 16 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks and a steal every game.  

Again, if he doesn't sustain a major injury that cuts his career short, he's putting up Hall of Fame numbers.

IMO any uptick in AD's production is primarily due to the attention Blake Griffin commands.   I would love to know what you base your expected defensive improvement on.  
HOF credentials, not likely.  One major criteria is positional dominance over a decade of ones era.  Dre has been whooped by many AND will be overshadowed by at least 5 other centers for the forseeable future.  But winning matters so let's wait and see if he generates a dominant post season resume.



I stand corrected on my statement that the Pistons defense is not that good.  The Pistons defensive rating is 106.8, which is good for 7th in the league.  While 106.8 seems high, the thing is, scoring in the NBA has been increasing due to the 3 point shot.
I was surprised by that too.  Maybe Casey is having an effect.



I sure would love for the Pistons to win the next 5 out of 7 games, and go into the 20 game mark at 12 - 8.  We have some patsies coming up.  Let's hope they beat the teams they should beat.

[Murph]

"FG%:  We shoot 48% between 16' & 3pt distance and 31% beyond the arc.  Unfortunately we take 6% of our shots from the former and 37% from the latter.  Whoever suggested taking one step toward the basket might be on to something."

3 point shots are worth 1.5 times more than 2 point shots.  So shooting 31% on 3 point shots is the equivalent of shooting 46.5% on 2 point shots
(not taking into account long rebounds that could lead to fast breaks the other way).

The difference between 46.5% and 48% is negligible.



"Dre:  JMO but I'm beginning to sense that this dude is likely all he will ever."

I think Drummond is still improving every season, and will continue to improve significantly defensively.  However, if this is all he will ever be, it's pretty impressive. Drummond is averaging 19 points, 16 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 blocks and a steal every game.  

Again, if he doesn't sustain a major injury that cuts his career short, he's putting up Hall of Fame numbers.



I stand corrected on my statement that the Pistons defense is not that good. The Pistons defensive rating is 106.8, which is good for 7th in the league. While 106.8 seems high, the thing is, scoring in the NBA has been increasing due to the 3 point shot.



I sure would love for the Pistons to win the next 5 out of 7 games, and go into the 20 game mark at 12 - 8.  We have some patsies coming up.  Let's hope they beat the teams they should beat.

[deusXango]

Oracle, I'm on the same page as you, "this kid is a star defensively." I see why Casey had so much faith in Stanley Johnson, and consistently does everything he can to repair and boost his confidence, confidence that was all but destroyed by Van Gundy. His "broken" shot is not being fixed by Casey, but he's being encouraged to just shoot it, and guess what? It's going down with increasing frequency! This, however, is not about Stanley the shooter, but Stanley the stopper and make no mistake about it, stop he does...any position on the floor he's capable of getting in their ass and shutting down/disrupting their offensive game. He has the perfect size for it and we've never had a player like that since Dennis Rodman (he'll never rebound like the "Worm")….relentless and energetic.

Stanley Johnson, is not a starter. He's developing into, perhaps, the best "spark off the bench" player in the NBA; this is what one would want from a player of his draft status. I'd rather have a star off the bench, than a mediocre starter. Stanley Johnson, is not a starter. He plays critical minutes, finishes games, and I can see him contributing greatly on a championship team. I'm satisfied with our SF's in GR3 and SJ.

IMHO between now and the trade deadline there are 2 players that would make a significant difference on our team; Kemba Walker or Terry Rozier and Julius Randle....I'm keeping hope alive and dreaming still.

[Oracle]

I said it before, I think this kid is a star defensively, and when he had to hit the CLUTCH shots, he made them.


I have a simple message to Stanley Johnson: Find and fulfill your destiny!

[lemonpen]

FG%:  We shoot 48% between 16' & 3pt distance and 31% beyond the arc.  Unfortunately we take 6% of our shots from the former and 37% from the latter.  Whoever suggested taking one step toward the basket might be on to something.

We rank third in the L for % of 3pt shots taken from the corner.  That is the shortest distance, but we are 24th in the L converting them.

I agree with you. This is becoming silly ball with the Pistons. There were several possessions where both Bullock and Galloway decided to take a 3 point shot when they had a clear path to the basket with no defender in sight. I see Casey on the sideline occasionally gestering to players when they hesitate in shooting a three point shot when they have possession of the ball. Shouldn't a player look inside to see if a teammate might be open. Has the game become that retarded?


Another problem that is bothersome to me is how Smith plays at the end of the third quarter and the start of the 4th. Smith should know that he needs to get his teammates involved in the offense especially at the start of the 4th. But game after game I see Smith going solo from end to end and usually with a bad result. Last night Smith did it 3 times in a row make one pass on 3 straight possessions and then forcing a low percentage shot against good defensive pressure. Where is the head coach?????

Blake Griffin might have scored a lot of points in this game but his performance in crunch time leaves a lot to be desired. With the score tied with one minute to go Blake was on the top of the key being heavily guarded. There was no place he could go and Bullock was wide open on the right wing while Johnson was also wide open behind the 3 point line at the baseline. The pass has to go to Bullock in that situation and Griffin has to trust his teammates. He looked and decided to do it all on his own and threw up and impossible shot at the end of the shot clock. Several times in this game. Griffin would have the basketball and actually see teammates un guarded on the wing or baseline and ignore them as they were waiving to him. What are these players thinking? Oh that is Blake he trusts nobody but himself.

While AD had a miserable first half, he dug down and had some positive moments in the 2nd half. He got a steal after Johnson had hit a 3 point shot by moving his hands as Toronto was trying to inbound the basketball. AD was engaged.

Casey should be credited for calling two really good out of bounds plays at the end. The lob pass to Robinson was a great idea and it looked to me that he was fouled. Then of course the sweet play under the basket where Bullock made a great cut to get that look that won the ball game. Casey still is AWOL at times though while failing to change combinations that are horrible. Casey reluctantly played Johnson in the 2nd half instead of his favorites so at least he was not sleeping. Did anyone but me notice that Johnson is a leader when he plays. He was talking to Reggie Jackson and Blake a lot. He motivates players he is on the court with. In the previous loss Johnson got 16 or 17 minutes. He was not on the floor in crunch time. I know it is a long shot that Stanley will be signing a new Piston contract but I still want to see him be a big part of this team before he is forced to leave. The Pistons front office are clearly complete idiots. Nobody plays Lenard as well as Stanley Johnson. That is why he is going to be in high demand by a lot of NBA teams. He can shut down opposing team's best skill player. That counts a lot with most GMs and coaches. But maybe this head coach doesn't believe that is true. And perhaps Tom Gores won't spend the money Johnson will command. It does no good bitching but to me the Piston's leadership is the worst in the entire NBA at this point in time.

It is good to celebrate this win but Toronto did not have all of their key players and our Pistons did not play for most of the game like a good team. They got lucky but did play really hard towards the middle of the 4th quarter.

Ish Smith:
Agreed. He appears to be pressing for the next contract.

Bullock:
Every 3pt attempt looks a little different right now. The stroke isn't close to a repeated groove.

Griffin:
I don't fault him. I bet his fg% against a double team is currently higher than an open Stanley or Bullock. What I have seen though is 4 & 5 defenders turning to watch Blake go to work on the low box, AND 4 pistons just stand in place. Casey ought to design cutters into that situation.

Johnson:
The problem with SJ is he has clearly been a much better reserve. As a starter his O too often offsets his D. You can't guard prime time players from the bench.

[Sparma]

Isn't it weird that the next game (vs Cleveland) isn't until Monday, Nov. 19? Someone goofed in scheduling.

BallinD, at first I read your question as "can this team be really good" and my answer was simply going to be: No [if really good means something like hitting Wise's purportedly reasonable expectation of 55]. But I see that your question actually is "[c]an this team really be good if...?" Yes, I think so, if good means having a solid winning record. I'm not inclined to revise expectations at this point from the 43, 44 that you and I predicted though. If all goes well, they might approach 50. In any event, it's fun to see them play with spirit, play for their coach (something I don't think the team ever did for SVG), and get so excited at the end.

If it’s better to be lucky than good, we’re happy campers till the next game; but...

Like me you want more.  Can this team really be good if we have Luke on board and the dreaded injury bug stays away?  Is there a trade in the works? If we are 8th in def rating and 23rd in offensive rating, can we take this soft stretch in the schedule to iron out the kinks?  Go Stones!

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