Chad Ford... the IDIOT!!!

[Oracle]

Keith Langlois comments on Ford's opinion of Stanley Johnson(never knew Langlois has such balls)!


Keith Langlois @Keith_Langlois
Time will tell. But asinine for Ford to write Pistons drafted guy who looks the part, Heat a guy who plays the part


Don't worry Keith, it's not like Ford wasn't wrong about a lot of other players back in 2012! Here's his comments on the Pistons & Warriors draft!

[Oracle]

It's a big one!

Trey Burke looks like crap in the NBA for a very good reason... his success will depend on getting to a team with a system that maximizes his talent! Of the 3 players mentioned, Burke is the most dependent on system for success, and the least likely to find it unless he can adapt his game.

KCP is also system dependent, just to a lesser degree than Burke! As Wise keeps saying, KCP is a scorer, NOT a spot up 3 point shooter, but SVG is hell bent on forcing this 3 point issue! KCP has found a way to be successful while trying to give coaches what they want, but unless he adapts to being a spot up 3 point shooter, he's going to always leave them wanting more and his career & game will suffer.

Stanley Johnson is totally different from these two. Wise, if you've watched this kid, you should see that he is the most system independent of the 3! He does a little bit of everything and does it all well! For whatever reason, he plays his game, and is allowed to by coaches because it works so well!

His talents will work anywhere and for any team in the NBA, it just won't matter, he has the tools to adapt to anything! Yes it's early to anoint a player so young, but there's something interesting an special about him.

It's one of those situations where you know it when you see it, even if you can't explain it! And it's not like he's totally blowing us away with his summer league play, it's that we can see the evolution of that play so clearly that we know he's going to be good, given normal development!

My biggest concern is SVG screwing it up and forcing him into a position he's not right for! Hell, Jimmy Butler is a 6'8 SG for the Bulls, Wise is right to be concerned with so many 6'6 guys running around. Hell, I've been concerned with the 6'4 F**king Jodie Meeks posing as a SG just because he doesn't have any PG skills!

So as Seb said, it's looking like he's better suited to be a SG than a SF, my early sense if that's just about right, but I'm not going to close any doors yet! Let's let it play out and see where it goes. However, if he does project to SG, then we really will need QM as the backup SF behind Morris and we'll still have upgraded the position, but created a mess at SG.

[deusXango]

@Murph - This SF situation will get interesting! I like that SJ thinks he needs to be like LeBron, but LeBron will have to retire before he can go against him and succeed! My point with the TMac video was for everybody to see how much bigger a real SF is than SJ! TMac is close to 6'9, Carmelo is 6'8 and strong, LeBron is about 6'8.5 and strong... I don't like SJ's chances at 6'6.5! Those guys are not only bigger and stronger, but more skilled and experienced!

Having said that, I totally agree that if he's to achieve his goal of rookie of the year, he's likely going to have to start sooner rather than later! ROY's generally come from bad teams where they get high usage! SJ may get high usage without starting if he doubles as a SG in a jumbo lineup, who knows? My position with SJ is that he's going to be a really good player, I just don't know what position yet!

This just goes back to my concerns/confusion about all these freaking 6"6 guys posing as SF. Forget the Melo's and Lebron what the hell does he do against a Durant?   Stand there and watch him shoot.  IMO these guys we have are all SG's unless Johnson grows 3 more inches soon maybe there's a late growth spurt still left in him.    

Wise, my brother, what is it really about Stanley Johnson that you find him to be a poor prospect for our team? You continue to point out his height, but overlook all the positive things he's bringing to the table. You mention 2 of the strongest bully scorers in the NBA in Melo and LeBron; SJ is yet to play an NBA game and he's still under 21! Durant? A 6' 10" scoring freakazoid machine! Who in the league does more than stand and watch him shoot and score, when he gets going?! 3 of the top veteran offensive players in the entire league and you use them to pooh-pooh Johnson because he's 6' 6"? I think that's totally unfair. To your credit, you've stated we all should take a "wait and see" attitude toward Johnson's future, before leaving our feet, but most of us who've watched him are excited.

Ooops. I didn't read your Grant Hill post before I completed this post; my apologies Wise.

[Sebastian]

I have to agree with Wise. I see Stanley more as a SG than I do a SF.

As a SG, his size would provide an advantage over the opposing SG. His ball handling appears to be good enough (even better with more practice) to allow him to get to where he wants to get. He has range on his jumper and big enough to guard the position.

I say allow Stanley to play 25-30 minutes per game, as the first guard off the bench. Playing behind KCP. Also if Stanley plays more minutes at the SG position it will force him to be more active on the defensive end, because of the schemes that most teams run for their SG and I tend to believe that Stanley becomes a better player the more he is forced to move his body when on the floor.

I got to give to DX and Arizona Don, this kid can play, just like his momma said he could.

F@ckin Jodie Meeks will have to take a step back and become a 9th-to-10th-man off the bench providing heat-check minutes. If he's not hot, then he just will have to sit his ass on the bench and wait for garbage minutes.

@Murph - This SF situation will get interesting! I like that SJ thinks he needs to be like LeBron, but LeBron will have to retire before he can go against him and succeed! My point with the TMac video was for everybody to see how much bigger a real SF is than SJ! TMac is close to 6'9, Carmelo is 6'8 and strong, LeBron is about 6'8.5 and strong... I don't like SJ's chances at 6'6.5! Those guys are not only bigger and stronger, but more skilled and experienced!

Having said that, I totally agree that if he's to achieve his goal of rookie of the year, he's likely going to have to start sooner rather than later! ROY's generally come from bad teams where they get high usage! SJ may get high usage without starting if he doubles as a SG in a jumbo lineup, who knows? My position with SJ is that he's going to be a really good player, I just don't know what position yet!

This just goes back to my concerns/confusion about all these freaking 6"6 guys posing as SF. Forget the Melo's and Lebron what the hell does he do against a Durant?   Stand there and watch him shoot.  IMO these guys we have are all SG's unless Johnson grows 3 more inches soon maybe there's a late growth spurt still left in him.    

[cool breeze]

I thought SJ played the better game for his team... much more efficient... did not force anything (Winslow 5-15).
I do think SJ could have done more to jump the screens.

Absolutely, SJ was by far the more efficient, but it was Winslow who stymied him so much!

It wasn't that SJ played bad, but those screens you mentioned, the person using them to throw SJ off was Winslow! Even Johnson admits he got snookered by those screens, and Winslow used them to either attempt shots or initiate the offense.

As I said, the difference was small, but the bottom line is that Winslow did what he needed to do to win!

BTW, this is a really good example of a team win vs an individual! Miami had the better team, and Winslow utilized that to full effect, and for the most part shut down SJ in the 2nd half with double team assistance because he was our best weapon!

As Phillip said, I've seen players in Summer League get doubled, but NEVER this much! Teams have figured out that SJ is basically all we've got, and they're determined to stop him!

That won't be the case in the real NBA!

I am interested to see how Winslow reacts to defenders dropping under screens to prevent a drive that he seems to heavily prefer.  

Lemonpen the other factor that will play out in real NBA games is the fact that Winslow will seldom get the ball at the top of the key nor will he be bringing the basketball down the court acting like a point guard. In this game, Johnson was going over the screen and Johnson's teammate defending the screener did not switch to stop dribble penetration. I would have liked to see Johnson go under the screen and see if Winslow would be a one man show and start jacking up jump shots from distance. Both Winslow and Johnson are capable ball handlers who have the ability to initiate an offense. We are going to see some great battles between the two studs for many years to come.

[WTF]

Okay I'm reading here and there and I just want everyone to really wait to see what Mr. Johnson is able to do come regular season.  All these young guys have flashes of potential, talent and greatness.  I know I've been guilty of this myself in past with draft picks (see any Trey Burke I posted). We tend to do this sort of thing obsessively when we draft players (see KCP and Greg Monroe) hell we at times even hype the hell out of players like Singler and JJ.  It's okay to be hopeful but just like we had to breakaway from the way Joe did things we need to breakaway this crazy habit of premature wishing.  I'm hopeful but I'm going to wait and see when it comes to Johnson.

Okay this Reggie Jackson signing still baffles me 80 million 5/yrs for a player with less than a season of full games played.  I'm not mad about wanting him 17.9 points and 9.2 rebounds is something we haven't seen from a PG since well Zeke.  Jackson is no Zeke player wise but the numbers are there or were as far as his 27 games as a Pistons.   I just hope SVG wasn't a little premature in offering this extension but I'll add that if these are the numbers Jackson carry all next season then I won't be mad at all about the signing especially if he carry us into the playoffs.  I'm not concern with his lack of a 3pt shot or question about his defense not many PG are great defenders to begin with every PG can't be a Glove or Cheeks but Jackson can get better and I like that he attacks the basket.

Okay now that the SF position seemed to be addressed and the PG situation seem to be in order with Jackson, Jennings and Dinwiddie not a bad trio of PG's Andre has a back up, and we finally got a stretch 4 at the PF. It seems shooting guard is the new concern because I'm still not sold on KCP as a consistent enough shooter.  IMO I would like for KCP to never shoot 3's and attack the basket more or become more of a Rip like player that he's deadly from 12 feet in.  In other words I like to see him become a better catch and shoot player then seeing his hot and cold antics from beyong the arc.  

Looking at the potential starting 5 I have to say the weak link is KCP and don't tell me defense is his strong suit because I watch him get his ass kick often by opposing SG last season.  He's not locking down anyone so lets not give him the Bruce Bowens nod just yet because he gets far too much praise on his defense.  He's a okay defender at best who can be a lot better if he put his mind to it and if Meeks get his **** in order KCP might struggle to remain part of this team he's basically The Last of The Mohicans or Joe D botches IMO.  I still don't think we have a pure shooter on the roster at any of the position but the team should be better than last season.

I respectfully disagree with your thoughts on Stanley Johnson Wisefan. While Johnson will have his ups and downs for perhaps two years that will make him 21 when he starts to dominate other players. Have you watched any of the summer league games yet Wisefan? Usually rookies look like crap especially small forwards. But Stanley Johnson stands out and a superior player unlike any player we have witnessed ever play in the summer league games. His work ethic is outstanding and the evidence is in his 7 percent body fat. That is amazing for a 19 year old with that kind of body type.

One last comment on our players in the summer league. Spencer Dinwiddie had a rough time at first but now he is doing some good things on the court. But the great thing to me is that Dinwiddie has gained some weight and is much stronger this summer over last season. I think once training camp begins, Spencer will be ready to be a reliable point guard coming off the bench. He will use his defensive ability to secure a spot in the rotation.

Again I understand the hopefulness of everyone I'm just saying hold those horse back a little we're not looking at Grant Hill we're looking at Stanley Johnson and he is 19. I can only stress that again we shouldn't be in the habit of drafting player with a top 10 pick and projecting greatness in 2 seasons from now especially players this young. Keep in mind the story you're telling now is the same story told about KCP when we drafted him, the same story about Monroe, the same story about Andre and after their 2nd season we have still yet to see any of that star like praising of potential realized.

Again don't get me wrong I would love it if Stanley turn into Kobe, MJ or the likes rather sooner than later. I too see the possible potential but it's not real until it actually happens and I just saying lets be careful not to curse this kid. Lets not hype it until it really deserves the hyping, the kid looks good in SL but he's not on the floor with the best of the best it's only SL

[WTF]

@Murph - This SF situation will get interesting! I like that SJ thinks he needs to be like LeBron, but LeBron will have to retire before he can go against him and succeed! My point with the TMac video was for everybody to see how much bigger a real SF is than SJ! TMac is close to 6'9, Carmelo is 6'8 and strong, LeBron is about 6'8.5 and strong... I don't like SJ's chances at 6'6.5! Those guys are not only bigger and stronger, but more skilled and experienced!

Having said that, I totally agree that if he's to achieve his goal of rookie of the year, he's likely going to have to start sooner rather than later! ROY's generally come from bad teams where they get high usage! SJ may get high usage without starting if he doubles as a SG in a jumbo lineup, who knows? My position with SJ is that he's going to be a really good player, I just don't know what position yet!

This just goes back to my concerns/confusion about all these freaking 6"6 guys posing as SF. Forget the Melo's and Lebron what the hell does he do against a Durant? Stand there and watch him shoot. IMO these guys we have are all SG's unless Johnson grows 3 more inches soon maybe there's a late growth spurt still left in him.

[cool breeze]

Okay I'm reading here and there and I just want everyone to really wait to see what Mr. Johnson is able to do come regular season.  All these young guys have flashes of potential, talent and greatness.  I know I've been guilty of this myself in past with draft picks (see any Trey Burke I posted). We tend to do this sort of thing obsessively when we draft players (see KCP and Greg Monroe) hell we at times even hype the hell out of players like Singler and JJ.  It's okay to be hopeful but just like we had to breakaway from the way Joe did things we need to breakaway this crazy habit of premature wishing.  I'm hopeful but I'm going to wait and see when it comes to Johnson.

Okay this Reggie Jackson signing still baffles me 80 million 5/yrs for a player with less than a season of full games played.  I'm not mad about wanting him 17.9 points and 9.2 rebounds is something we haven't seen from a PG since well Zeke.  Jackson is no Zeke player wise but the numbers are there or were as far as his 27 games as a Pistons.   I just hope SVG wasn't a little premature in offering this extension but I'll add that if these are the numbers Jackson carry all next season then I won't be mad at all about the signing especially if he carry us into the playoffs.  I'm not concern with his lack of a 3pt shot or question about his defense not many PG are great defenders to begin with every PG can't be a Glove or Cheeks but Jackson can get better and I like that he attacks the basket.

Okay now that the SF position seemed to be addressed and the PG situation seem to be in order with Jackson, Jennings and Dinwiddie not a bad trio of PG's Andre has a back up, and we finally got a stretch 4 at the PF. It seems shooting guard is the new concern because I'm still not sold on KCP as a consistent enough shooter.  IMO I would like for KCP to never shoot 3's and attack the basket more or become more of a Rip like player that he's deadly from 12 feet in.  In other words I like to see him become a better catch and shoot player then seeing his hot and cold antics from beyong the arc.  

Looking at the potential starting 5 I have to say the weak link is KCP and don't tell me defense is his strong suit because I watch him get his ass kick often by opposing SG last season.  He's not locking down anyone so lets not give him the Bruce Bowens nod just yet because he gets far too much praise on his defense.  He's a okay defender at best who can be a lot better if he put his mind to it and if Meeks get his **** in order KCP might struggle to remain part of this team he's basically The Last of The Mohicans or Joe D botches IMO.  I still don't think we have a pure shooter on the roster at any of the position but the team should be better than last season.

I respectfully disagree with your thoughts on Stanley Johnson Wisefan. While Johnson will have his ups and downs for perhaps two years that will make him 21 when he starts to dominate other players. Have you watched any of the summer league games yet Wisefan? Usually rookies look like crap especially small forwards. But Stanley Johnson stands out and a superior player unlike any player we have witnessed ever play in the summer league games. His work ethic is outstanding and the evidence is in his 7 percent body fat. That is amazing for a 19 year old with that kind of body type.

One last comment on our players in the summer league. Spencer Dinwiddie had a rough time at first but now he is doing some good things on the court. But the great thing to me is that Dinwiddie has gained some weight and is much stronger this summer over last season. I think once training camp begins, Spencer will be ready to be a reliable point guard coming off the bench. He will use his defensive ability to secure a spot in the rotation.

[WTF]

Okay I'm reading here and there and I just want everyone to really wait to see what Mr. Johnson is able to do come regular season. All these young guys have flashes of potential, talent and greatness. I know I've been guilty of this myself in past with draft picks (see any Trey Burke I posted). We tend to do this sort of thing obsessively when we draft players (see KCP and Greg Monroe) hell we at times even hype the hell out of players like Singler and JJ. It's okay to be hopeful but just like we had to breakaway from the way Joe did things we need to breakaway this crazy habit of premature wishing. I'm hopeful but I'm going to wait and see when it comes to Johnson.

Okay this Reggie Jackson signing still baffles me 80 million 5/yrs for a player with less than a season of full games played. I'm not mad about wanting him 17.9 points and 9.2 rebounds is something we haven't seen from a PG since well Zeke. Jackson is no Zeke player wise but the numbers are there or were as far as his 27 games as a Pistons. I just hope SVG wasn't a little premature in offering this extension but I'll add that if these are the numbers Jackson carry all next season then I won't be mad at all about the signing especially if he carry us into the playoffs. I'm not concern with his lack of a 3pt shot or question about his defense not many PG are great defenders to begin with every PG can't be a Glove or Cheeks but Jackson can get better and I like that he attacks the basket.

Okay now that the SF position seemed to be addressed and the PG situation seem to be in order with Jackson, Jennings and Dinwiddie not a bad trio of PG's Andre has a back up, and we finally got a stretch 4 at the PF. It seems shooting guard is the new concern because I'm still not sold on KCP as a consistent enough shooter. IMO I would like for KCP to never shoot 3's and attack the basket more or become more of a Rip like player that he's deadly from 12 feet in. In other words I like to see him become a better catch and shoot player then seeing his hot and cold antics from beyong the arc.

Looking at the potential starting 5 I have to say the weak link is KCP and don't tell me defense is his strong suit because I watch him get his ass kick often by opposing SG last season. He's not locking down anyone so lets not give him the Bruce Bowens nod just yet because he gets far too much praise on his defense. He's a okay defender at best who can be a lot better if he put his mind to it and if Meeks get his **** in order KCP might struggle to remain part of this team he's basically The Last of The Mohicans or Joe D botches IMO. I still don't think we have a pure shooter on the roster at any of the position but the team should be better than last season.

[lemonpen]

I thought SJ played the better game for his team... much more efficient... did not force anything (Winslow 5-15).
I do think SJ could have done more to jump the screens.

Absolutely, SJ was by far the more efficient, but it was Winslow who stymied him so much!

It wasn't that SJ played bad, but those screens you mentioned, the person using them to throw SJ off was Winslow! Even Johnson admits he got snookered by those screens, and Winslow used them to either attempt shots or initiate the offense.

As I said, the difference was small, but the bottom line is that Winslow did what he needed to do to win!

BTW, this is a really good example of a team win vs an individual! Miami had the better team, and Winslow utilized that to full effect, and for the most part shut down SJ in the 2nd half with double team assistance because he was our best weapon!

As Phillip said, I've seen players in Summer League get doubled, but NEVER this much! Teams have figured out that SJ is basically all we've got, and they're determined to stop him!

That won't be the case in the real NBA!

I am interested to see how Winslow reacts to defenders dropping under screens to prevent a drive that he seems to heavily prefer.

[Oracle]

I thought SJ played the better game for his team... much more efficient... did not force anything (Winslow 5-15).
I do think SJ could have done more to jump the screens.

Absolutely, SJ was by far the more efficient, but it was Winslow who stymied him so much!

It wasn't that SJ played bad, but those screens you mentioned, the person using them to throw SJ off was Winslow! Even Johnson admits he got snookered by those screens, and Winslow used them to either attempt shots or initiate the offense.

As I said, the difference was small, but the bottom line is that Winslow did what he needed to do to win!

BTW, this is a really good example of a team win vs an individual! Miami had the better team, and Winslow utilized that to full effect, and for the most part shut down SJ in the 2nd half with double team assistance because he was our best weapon!

As Phillip said, I've seen players in Summer League get doubled, but NEVER this much! Teams have figured out that SJ is basically all we've got, and they're determined to stop him!

That won't be the case in the real NBA!

[Oracle]

@DX - Monroe's numbers are VERY good and he is a skilled player! What you say about his impact here is true, but don't use one single sample and think that it represents everything. It's all about fit and coaching! Monroe didn't fit here anymore, that has nothing to do with his ability to fit better elsewhere.

IMO, Moose should shine with the Bucks because they already have a lot of players that are above average defenders and can cover for him! What they need is a scorer, and he can do that in the post, but they have to use him properly. We'll see, but his numbers are above average in this league!

Oracle, you're absolutely correct in the overall assessment of my post; Monroe didn't fit here anymore, but will probably be a much more productive player in Milwaukee. I realize that he was hamstrung for too long, playing alongside Maxiell as a PF, and when quality big man help came to Detroit, it was Drummond, who played the same position Monroe was holding down for years without any real help...his numbers could've been higher, but his high b-ball I.Q. held him back, trying to play team ball. It wasn't necessary for Moose to develop a mid-range game because offensively, Maxiell was not only undersized, but a "black hole" and Monroe had to play inside...his superior rebounding was needed.

So, all these holes have been plugged and Monroe is apparently wanted in Milwaukee, I wish him well, really I do.

I know you do, but it's good to hear and reaffirm the kind of person and fan you are!

We can get on Monroe without hating him, and truth be told, I'm really glad he's moved on, but I also wish him well... until we tip off against the Bucks!!!

Then he can kiss my arse and I hope the rim blocks all of his shots

[deusXango]

@DX - Monroe's numbers are VERY good and he is a skilled player! What you say about his impact here is true, but don't use one single sample and think that it represents everything. It's all about fit and coaching! Monroe didn't fit here anymore, that has nothing to do with his ability to fit better elsewhere.

IMO, Moose should shine with the Bucks because they already have a lot of players that are above average defenders and can cover for him! What they need is a scorer, and he can do that in the post, but they have to use him properly. We'll see, but his numbers are above average in this league!

Oracle, you're absolutely correct in the overall assessment of my post; Monroe didn't fit here anymore, but will probably be a much more productive player in Milwaukee. I realize that he was hamstrung for too long, playing alongside Maxiell as a PF, and when quality big man help came to Detroit, it was Drummond, who played the same position Monroe was holding down for years without any real help...his numbers could've been higher, but his high b-ball I.Q. held him back, trying to play team ball. It wasn't necessary for Moose to develop a mid-range game because offensively, Maxiell was not only undersized, but a "black hole" and Monroe had to play inside...his superior rebounding was needed.

So, all these holes have been plugged and Monroe is apparently wanted in Milwaukee, I wish him well, really I do.

[merc]

I thought SJ played the better game for his team... much more efficient... did not force anything (Winslow 5-15).
I do think SJ could have done more to jump the screens.

[Oracle]

Winslow was the better player today, but not by much and it doesn't mean a thing, but he won in two ways!

He was the better player and he had the better team! But Winslow has this move where he stops and starts walking into the defender, and seems to get the call a lot... looks like steps to me, but I need to look closer!

Don mentioned this earlier, but it was really apparent in this game, the bigs on this team suck big time!!!

We out rebounded them, but they were more than plus 20 in the paint! You can't give up that many paint points and expect to win!

Stanley saw his first game where he was an overall drag on the team, sporting a -7!

But in the 3rd, they shocked us by bringing Josh Smith off the bench! I never expected to see a player that big in Summer League, he was HUGE, scoring 5 straight points when we couldn't score!

The Summer League schedule is BRUTAL, I'm surprised any of these players have enough gas in the tank to walk straight after the games!

[Oracle]

Reggie's Raise: Feelings can run all over the place, but there are certain facts in play that should be recognized. First and foremost are the factors that influence whatever move is made. Here are those facts.

1. The negotiator of the contract is in an impossible position! To get the most out of the player, a coach needs a good relationship! That's in direct conflict with playing hardball with a player & agent to get the best financial deal for the team!
   
2. As I mentioned before, we had no competition! I mentioned that because it was a recognition that the player had very little negotiation power! Now in a fair negotiation, you don't want to use that power unwisely, but use it you must!
   

In the light of those facts, without any doubt, we overpaid Reggie Jackson! The Heat dropped 90M on Dragic, and the Suns dropped 70M on Knight, and SVG split the difference, which may seem fair, but both of those players were starters and leaders on their teams, something Jackson has never done!

We overpaid and it should just be admitted instead of pretending that it isn't true, because that's not the point! The point is if you believe that this will be a good deal AFTER Jackson proves his ability to be a starter and leader of a good team!

That admission is based in reality, because the raise certainly isn't based on facts on the hardwood!

@Murph - This SF situation will get interesting! I like that SJ thinks he needs to be like LeBron, but LeBron will have to retire before he can go against him and succeed! My point with the TMac video was for everybody to see how much bigger a real SF is than SJ! TMac is close to 6'9, Carmelo is 6'8 and strong, LeBron is about 6'8.5 and strong... I don't like SJ's chances at 6'6.5! Those guys are not only bigger and stronger, but more skilled and experienced!

Having said that, I totally agree that if he's to achieve his goal of rookie of the year, he's likely going to have to start sooner rather than later! ROY's generally come from bad teams where they get high usage! SJ may get high usage without starting if he doubles as a SG in a jumbo lineup, who knows? My position with SJ is that he's going to be a really good player, I just don't know what position yet!

@Don - Take a bow on Johnson! I went from loving him to disappointment when his size measurements came in, to realizing that he was likely one of the best picks in the draft at any size, and that's where I finished!

The only reason I got turned around was that you were so certain that I was forced to do a lot of research on him and watch video, which was what made me rock solid and clear on who the pick should be... take a bow!

@DX - Monroe's numbers are VERY good and he is a skilled player! What you say about his impact here is true, but don't use one single sample and think that it represents everything. It's all about fit and coaching! Monroe didn't fit here anymore, that has nothing to do with his ability to fit better elsewhere.

IMO, Moose should shine with the Bucks because they already have a lot of players that are above average defenders and can cover for him! What they need is a scorer, and he can do that in the post, but they have to use him properly. We'll see, but his numbers are above average in this league!

[deusXango]

It's about time I chimed in on Stanley Johnson, in particular, and the Detroit Pistons in general.

I asked Don about Stanley Johnson early in the college season (about 3 games deep if memory serves me correctly) and he posted an in-depth analysis on this site so that not only I could be apprised of Stanley's talent, but every fan who reads this forum! At no time during the season did I read anything like what Don posted about Stanley, be posted about Justise Winslow; not a goddamn word, but now even though a lot of teams that were slated to take him before Detroit picked, passed on him, we're acting as if we got the inferior player. Bullsh!t. I know, it's in the name. Justice is sexier than Stanley.

I waited until Johnson got a couple of games under his belt before posting on him, and I'm pleased that he justified Don's faith in him and affirmed what I watched last season; a genuine beast. Winslow may be good, but Johnson is going to be far better and I'm glad he's in Detroit. Thanks for the "heads up" Don, you really called that one right and SVG followed suit.

Why do people have a problem with what Reggie Jackson signed for? The one who's paying him agreed to sign him. What will $16 million look like in 2 years? In 3 years? Who views Jennings as a superior player and a better leader and fit for this team? Really!? The talk is always about how Jennings game skyrocketed after Josh's departure, but Jackson did his thing not only without Josh, but the Moose too. He turns the ball over, his usage rate, he's a poor defender, he lacks an outside shot, all the damn negatives one can come up with to shine a dim light on a player who can give us what we need on the court. All this to preserve a spot for Jennings on this team, a player who should've been run out of town on a rail long before Jackson got here. Jackson's signed, now let's trade Jennings before he poisons the water.

Here's some more sh!t that's getting on my nerves; when does 16 points and 9 rebounds represent a highly skilled player, when that player is considered the best on the team, a team that can't make the playoffs or come close to playing .500 ball? That's the Moose's impact on our team. He was our top rebounder before this raw kid (Drummond) came along and crushed his numbers...that same kid was only out scored by Moose by a few points. When a raw, unschooled kid, who's not a competent defender and rim protector, matches a 16 point and 9 rebound player, it's time to stop with that "highly skilled" nonsense. He was ill-fitting, now he's gone and been replaced; let's see what Ilyasova brings to the table for us.

[Murph]

"My only question is how long will it take until Stanley Johnson becomes a starter for the Detroit Pistons????? I like the no pressure approach coach Van Gundy has taken with Johnson. Stanley Johnson gets more pressure from his Mother who has been his coach since he was a kid. I noticed his Mother sitting in the stands. She was a pro but became a great coach for Stanley and his buddies when he was a small kid."

Considering Johnson's potential, and the overall mediocre talent of our SFs after him...I would urge SVG to start Johnson sooner rather than later. He's the future.

And Marcus Morris will make a very competent and fairly paid back-up at both forward positions.


I don't care how much we pay Jackson, as long as he performs. He averaged 18 points, 9 assists and 5 rebounds for the Pitons in 27 games last season. If he come close to those numbers, and runs the offense well, he will be worth every bit of that $80 million.

[cool breeze]

It seems that every time I read something about Reggie Jackson, the writer includes something negative about Jackson's defensive capabilities. From what I saw last season, Jackson does have the body and quickness to become an outstanding defensive player at the point guard position. He looks a lot better than every other Piston point guard I have watched in several years with the exception of Spencer Dinwiddie. So I hope that Reggie is reading all this crap about his biggest weakness - defense - and is gearing himself up to become a feared defender next season. If we have 3 young guys playing together in Jackson, KCP, and Johnson who can all play outstanding pressure defense, our Pistons are going to be the talk of the league. I know that Drummond is a long way from becoming even an average defensive player. But if he sees the skill guys busting their rears on defense, then Andre might get his ass motivated to be a monster in the paint. Ersan Llyasova is a tough minded guy too and will be a huge improvement on the defensive end over Greg Monroe. One mindset must be created by this group of young guys - one for all and all for one. Kick ass and take names and help each other make it through the hard times by putting pressure on each other to bring high energy every night.

In such a short period of time, Stan Van Gundy has transformed the Detroit Pistons from weak minded chumps to real fighters. Now fill the stands Piston fans. Thank you!!

[cool breeze]

So called sports experts need to do more homework before condemning decisions made by people like Stan Van Gundy. I hope some of the negative folks are waking up now if they bothered to watch Johnson's performance in his first two Summer League games. It is extremely difficult to stand on in the Summer League unless you are a dominant big man. Skill players depend on their teammates more to make things work properly. And being that so many fringe players are fighting for their existence in those games, usually very little teamwork is noticeable. Johnson is playing basketball the right way. He is not forcing anything and is looking to help his teammates play better. Meanwhile there is a beast waiting to explode once the NBA season gets underway. I have seldom seen a rookie stand out like Johnson while playing the small forward position in summer league games. Last summer I was disappointed in what I saw from another favorite of mine, Arron Gordon. It has taken Gordon one full season in the NBA to get himself under control. He was also only 19 when he was drafted. Now I watch Gordon in the summer league games, and he is a different player. He is a guy who has worked his butt off to become a more effective player. Gordon has a step back baseline jump shot that cannot be blocked. He has been making them consistently too. But Johnson looks like an old pro out on the court playing with boys. What gets me is when so called experts or announcers say, "well you know Johnson is not a superior athlete". Then they say but he sure is effective. I don't get it. Johnson is a superior athlete. He plays extremely quick as you could see when he plays defense. He has quick feet unlike players like Monroe. Yet Johnson weighs 245 pounds. Stan Van Gundy has made the pick of the century for the Detroit Pistons. Notice how the highly rated foreign small forward drafted before Johnson looks like a lost puppy on the floor? Maybe he will develop into a great player but to me he is a work in progress needing several years of work before he is ready to help an NBA team. Thank the lucky stars that Mr. Van Gundy did not buy into all the hype on that guy. My only question is how long will it take until Stanley Johnson becomes a starter for the Detroit Pistons????? I like the no pressure approach coach Van Gundy has taken with Johnson. Stanley Johnson gets more pressure from his Mother who has been his coach since he was a kid. I noticed his Mother sitting in the stands. She was a pro but became a great coach for Stanley and his buddies when he was a small kid.

The Pistons have some low quality big men playing in the summer league games. I don't want to make excuses for Dinwiddie but that has a lot to do with why Spencer is getting himself out of control at times. He needs to slow it down a bit so as to fit the team he is playing with. Yet his coaches want to see if he can push the basketball more. Hang in there Spencer. We are pulling for you to come out of these games learning something and then using that to kick your game up another level once you play with your Piston teammates in real action.

[cool breeze]

This is a ton of money for a player that hasn't proven himself and I'm surprise there's not a revolt going on here about it.  Apparently Jackson is the damn Franchise player on this team considering the contract he just signed.  I will tell everyone here now that I'm not cutting this guy any slack this coming season and thing less than a Double-Double in assist and points is unacceptable and he better pull off the occasional Rondo Type Triple-Double more tan a handful of times.   More importantly is he better come up clutch because we just gave a ALL-STAR contract to an unproven player.  

The Ripple Effects: could be ugly if we keep Jennings around because I can see him **** up any kind of chemistry the team may develop because he'll be playing for a contract next season and coming off that injury.  I'm sure Jennings think he's better and more proven than Jackson and this might have some strange negative impact because mentally Jennings can't handle it.  

We might as well kept Josh as well this just say's to me that whatever Josh was making he wasn't being over paid.  I wonder if Jackson will get the same treatment Josh got being the highest paid player on the team or will he get a laundry list of excuses.  

Put down the tar and feathers.  Reggies contract isn't effective until the 2016-2017 season and therefore is inflated to the new CAP level of appx $90 mil.  The 2014-2015 CAP being $63.065 mil makes 2016-17 a 42% bump.  When you translate Jacksons $85 mil/5yr deal into 2014-2015 dollars he would sit at $59.9 mil (avg $11.9/yr).  That isn't much more per year than Jackson turned down from OKC (rumored $44/4yr).

Since the Darko of Detroit free agents (Josh) was raking in $14/yr I guess I'll give Reg twelve fourteenths of the crap I gave Smoove.  

Thanks for your thoughts on this topic Lemonpen. Well thought out as usual.

[lemonpen]

This is a ton of money for a player that hasn't proven himself and I'm surprise there's not a revolt going on here about it.  Apparently Jackson is the damn Franchise player on this team considering the contract he just signed.  I will tell everyone here now that I'm not cutting this guy any slack this coming season and thing less than a Double-Double in assist and points is unacceptable and he better pull off the occasional Rondo Type Triple-Double more tan a handful of times.   More importantly is he better come up clutch because we just gave a ALL-STAR contract to an unproven player.  

The Ripple Effects: could be ugly if we keep Jennings around because I can see him **** up any kind of chemistry the team may develop because he'll be playing for a contract next season and coming off that injury.  I'm sure Jennings think he's better and more proven than Jackson and this might have some strange negative impact because mentally Jennings can't handle it.  

We might as well kept Josh as well this just say's to me that whatever Josh was making he wasn't being over paid.  I wonder if Jackson will get the same treatment Josh got being the highest paid player on the team or will he get a laundry list of excuses.  

Put down the tar and feathers. Reggies contract isn't effective until the 2016-2017 season and therefore is inflated to the new CAP level of appx $90 mil. The 2014-2015 CAP being $63.065 mil makes 2016-17 a 42% bump. When you translate Jacksons $85 mil/5yr deal into 2014-2015 dollars he would sit at $59.9 mil (avg $11.9/yr). That isn't much more per year than Jackson turned down from OKC (rumored $44/4yr).

Since the Darko of Detroit free agents (Josh) was raking in $14/yr I guess I'll give Reg twelve fourteenths of the crap I gave Smoove.

[Oracle]

We'll all be tough on him, and rightly so, that's a LOT of scratch to shell out!

To back up some of what you've been saying, there's this...

Key additions: Stanley Johnson (draft), Ersan Ilyasova (trade), Marcus Morris (trade), Aron Baynes (FA)

Key losses: Greg Monroe (FA)

Projected starters: Reggie Jackson, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Marcus Morris, Ersan Ilyasova, Andre Drummond
 
Detroit's had a tricky offseason to judge. On one hand, the moves they've made fit Stan Van Gundy's four-out offense better than the players he inherited. On the other hand, the increased depth in no way makes up for the loss of Monroe's talent.

With Caldwell-Pope, Morris and Ilyasova, Detroit will space the floor for Drummond the same way Orlando did for Dwight Howard.
Where it all falls down is that Drummond, at this stage in his development, is nowhere near the singularly dominant force Howard was. And while the above trio fit Van Gundy's system, they're all more fringe starters than anything.

Detroit has likely taken a step sideways while they wait for Drummond, Johnson and Jackson to develop into legitimate threats. All three have potential, but their games also have significant holes.

While I don't totally agree with that analysis, I can see how someone on the outside could come to that conclusion!

A lot of people want Jennings traded, but IMO, without him, we don't have the punch on the 2nd unit that we had last year when Augustin was so solid!

[WTF]

This is a ton of money for a player that hasn't proven himself and I'm surprise there's not a revolt going on here about it. Apparently Jackson is the damn Franchise player on this team considering the contract he just signed. I will tell everyone here now that I'm not cutting this guy any slack this coming season and thing less than a Double-Double in assist and points is unacceptable and he better pull off the occasional Rondo Type Triple-Double more tan a handful of times. More importantly is he better come up clutch because we just gave a ALL-STAR contract to an unproven player.

The Ripple Effects: could be ugly if we keep Jennings around because I can see him **** up any kind of chemistry the team may develop because he'll be playing for a contract next season and coming off that injury. I'm sure Jennings think he's better and more proven than Jackson and this might have some strange negative impact because mentally Jennings can't handle it.

We might as well kept Josh as well this just say's to me that whatever Josh was making he wasn't being over paid. I wonder if Jackson will get the same treatment Josh got being the highest paid player on the team or will he get a laundry list of excuses.

[Sebastian]

Sixteen million per year for next five is a lot of damn scratch for a guy, who has not proven he's worth it, yet. I don't understand why GM Stan didn't allow the market to determine Reggie's value.

One thing is for sure, Reggie better live up to his new contract and back-up all that sh!t he was talking at the start of last season while he was still a member of the Thunder.

Time to put up - Reggie!

Note: This is taken from this article: Report: Pistons agree to five-year, $80 million deal with Reggie Jackson, there's more there...

On the one hand...

Well for starters, there's this.

There are some bright spots overall, but that's still a guy who shot 43 percent from the field last year, 44 percent after arriving in Detroit. His True Shooting Percentage (which factors 3-point shooting) didn't go up either, staying at 51.1 percent.

He wasn't good defensively, either, grading out at the 45th percentile individually according to Synergy Sports and a 104.0 defensive rating when on the court, which is neither terrible on the Pistons nor good overall. He can be mistake prone and managed to interrupt a really good thing in Oklahoma City on a contending team.

It's also just a simple overpay for a mediocre talent relative to his position. Jackson can be very good, but you can't grade him in the top ten, maybe not even top 15 as a point guard. Why would you assign your largest contract value to a player who not only does not grade in the top 15 at his position, and had no bargaining leverage, but plays a position at which there seems to be a never-ending fountain of good options? Heck, Phoenix is willing to trade you one about every six months or so. Not only can you not really keep up at the position by spending to that tier, but you're inflating the market when you're not in need of it. The Pistons aren't ready to contend - nowhere near it. So why spend through the nose to keep your own free agent at a loaded position in which he's not in the top tier?

Brandon Jennings is coming off an Achilles injury and only had brief moments of looking like he'd turned the corner in Detroit, but he's a whole lot cheaper and showed genuine signs especially after the team waived Josh Smith. The Pistons were in no way backed up against a wall but still spent their way to get away from the corner.

But on the other hand...
Let's start here. So per-game numbers are funky and per-minute numbers are still affected by pace. So let's look at per-100 possessions last year, for players who put up what Jackson did.



That's a pretty great list, right? And his Detroit-only numbers were even more spectacular. He simply did a huge amount of stuff on the court. You can argue against that with his extremely high usage (28.6 percent of all possessions when he was on the floor), but usage doesn't guarantee production. Production must justify usage, but usage does not guarantee it. Jackson still made a ton of things happen.

Then there's the upside factor. Jrue Holiday. Mike Conley. Eric Bledsoe. Kyle Lowry. All of these players took time to really develop into great point guards. Often times athletic guards like Jackson take off the first year after the extension and become great point guards as they learn how to operate the game more. Jackson was in the 75th percentile scoring out of the pick and roll shooting 44 percent and in the 74th percentile when he passed via Synergy Sports. So he understands the most basic and essential NBA set at a high level. That's big.

There's no reason he can't shoot more efficiently, there are no significant questions about his actual jump shot mechanics, and he's capable of improving defensively. However, it should be noted that Jackson turned 25 last April. He's not a spring chicken, just hitting his real development stage. In many ways he already is what he'll be, barring a Lowry-like progression curve, which is rare.

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