Speaking of Stank Babies...

[Oracle]

[Oracle]

[Oracle]

"This is silly and stupid as to how the coaching staff would allow this to happen if Jennings is coachable at all. I have seen the same thing go on with Will Bynum and Stuckey at times and wonder how they can get away with it. It is a fundamental error and no team can win much of anything if this is allowed to go on." - Don

The state of affairs:
This is where I can't fault Cheeks! Cheeks is blameless that he only has Jennings & Bynum to work with because Joe's experiment blew up in his face!

Since he failed to draft either Burke or MCW, both of whom are better than any guard on this team by a LONG shot, is stunning!

Then to bring in a broke down Chauncey Billups while resigning Bynum while allowing other teams to sign a ton of better guards is mind blowing!

What to do & why:
Why does Cheeks have to play Bynum & Jennings other than the fact that they are the best he has?

Well, it's becoming clear that while Jennings can learn to dish the rock, what I thought he could/would do for us, it turns out he's totally incapable of doing, and we would have been much better off keeping Knight & Middleton, and no, I won't rehash that, it's history, but relevant!

I think we all thought that Jennings was this fast guard that could break down defenses to either score or dish the ball... he isn't!

Jennings can't penetrate defenses worth a damn, he's regularly stopped! Fortunately he doesn't tend to turn the ball over, but it does result in him dribbling out the clock and producing a bad or rushed shot... it's just plain bad!

So what can Cheeks do to fix this? Well, the only guard on the team that can take anybody off the dribble, break down the defense and get someone a shot earlier in the clock is Will Bynum!

I know that everybody here would like a better option, but it's time for us to accept reality and swallow that bitter pill, because Bynum is the only thing standing between us and missing the playoffs right now!

We didn't expect guard to be the problem, and I don't see ANY help on the horizon with all of the guard injuries in the NBA this season, the competition for getting one will be FIRECE, and we all know Joe wilts in the face of GM competition!

Right now, our only hope is that Bynum gets better, and he is, but not on defense, so we really need Moose, Drummond & Josh to really step it up when he's in the game with Jennings!

[cool breeze]

(Singler) gives extreme effort every game doing the dirty work none of the highly paid players are willing to do. He helps others on defense. He moves without the basketball on every possession. He positions himself to rebound and boxes out. He is assigned the best player on the opposing team when he is on the floor. He has guarded power forwards, small forwards, 2 guards and even point guards this season. There is no player on this team like Kyle Singler. As Cheeks said in several interviews, he doesn't care if Singler misses shots because of the positive things he brings to the team. So Murph gives Singler a grade of C. Sorry but Singler is an A plus player for this team. He is an after thought 2nd round draft choice who is the best defender on the team and the most unselfish player on the team. If only we had other players like Singler this team would win a lot of games.  

My grades were not based on salaries or where the player was taken in the draft.

I agree that Singler is a hustle guy and a glue guy and fundamentally sound, which I mentioned.

My problem with Singler is that he only scores 8.4 ppg and takes the 8th most shots on the team, even though he's probably the best outside shooter on the team.  Singler is fully capable of contributing more, and needs to step up.  If he shot more and scored more, he'd help address some of the imbalances on the team, such as spacing.

The other problem in grading this team is that due to chemistry issues, the whole is less than the sum of it's parts.  We have lots a very talented players, but as a team, we aren't that great.  I thought I was generous is giving the Pistons an overall grade of C.  But that means the player's grades have to average out to pretty close to a C also, which means that some fan favorites are going to recieve lower grades than expected.

We will have to agree to disagree but I am glad that you never were my coach. Actually if Singler takes the 8th most shots of any other member of the team his scoring average is not that bad. If his teammates would pass the ball to him when he is open more, then his percentage might improve. He rebounds and tries to put back shots around the rim and maybe that is how his shooting percentage might be lower. There are a lot of factors involved if you are looking at those stats. But my beef with your post is that you did not identify Detroit's basic weaknesses which leads to so many loses. The players on this team are weak defenders except for Singler. In my opinion given what Singler brings to the team, he should get the highest ranking. And I am sure that would be the ranking the coaching staff would give him. And the same would be true during Larry Franks last season. We need more players with the drive and smarts Singler provides.

I had to laugh at the article in the Detroit News relating to how Bynum and Jennings work together. It seems that Jennings needs help with the pressures of playing point guard and Bynum is there to provide that assistance. How funny is that being that almost every other team in the league loves it when Bynum is playing point guard for Detroit. I noticed that Jennings was irritated with Bynum in the Philly game and put his hands on his hips while Bynum didn't see him wide open while dribbling aimlessly with his back to Jennings. If this combination is used a lot other teams will love it and will enjoy allowing to Bynum dribble around using up the shot clock while pissing off his own teammates who never get to touch the basketball much. On the other end of the floor is where even more problems await the Pistons with Bynum and Jennings guarding the back court together. This is fools gold and once the other teams bother to create a game plan to beat the Pistons, we will be seeing more blowouts. I would rate our guards as a group with a grade of E and label them as the worst group the NBA has seen for the past two seasons. For sure they are the worst group of guard defenders that I have witnessed for a long time. Unless changes are made there is no hope that this team will ever be anything but cannon fodder for the quality teams in the NBA. If Detroit's goal is to make the playoffs while using a circus act to create more excitement in the pathetic Eastern Conference, then we are the fools to bother to watch this team perform. The only hope for a better team is for this team to keep losing badly. Then Joe Dumars will have to do something if he wants to keep his job.

[FlyDog]

But speaking of checking ID's........she is 21, the kid is 2, gestation is 9 months long.....I hope Rodney is asking for ID's too. Was he waiting to pick her up from high school on her 18th birthday or something?

[Oracle]

One of the side stories here.......regarding the ex-Piston dancer getting face-time on "The Bachelor".  Apparently, she has a 2 year old son, and none other than Rodney Stuckey is the baby daddy.  She has seen him play basketball.......and she STILL slept with him?

I'll excuse you because you've been away for awhile, but if you had monitored Seb's post, you could have figured out why she slept with Hot Rod!

She thought Stuckey was Fifty Cents!!!

Of course a lot of people make that mistake, and only know it's Fiddy when he doesn't run into things and get called for charging!

Of course now that the cat is out of the bag, that legally allows us to get into their business   

I can see why Stuckey wanted to hit that, but seriously, she needs to start checking ID's before spreading(so to speak) the goodies around!

[FlyDog]

One of the side stories here.......regarding the ex-Piston dancer getting face-time on "The Bachelor". Apparently, she has a 2 year old son, and none other than Rodney Stuckey is the baby daddy. She has seen him play basketball.......and she STILL slept with him?

[Murph]

(Singler) gives extreme effort every game doing the dirty work none of the highly paid players are willing to do. He helps others on defense. He moves without the basketball on every possession. He positions himself to rebound and boxes out. He is assigned the best player on the opposing team when he is on the floor. He has guarded power forwards, small forwards, 2 guards and even point guards this season. There is no player on this team like Kyle Singler. As Cheeks said in several interviews, he doesn't care if Singler misses shots because of the positive things he brings to the team. So Murph gives Singler a grade of C. Sorry but Singler is an A plus player for this team. He is an after thought 2nd round draft choice who is the best defender on the team and the most unselfish player on the team. If only we had other players like Singler this team would win a lot of games.  

My grades were not based on salaries or where the player was taken in the draft.

I agree that Singler is a hustle guy and a glue guy and fundamentally sound, which I mentioned.

My problem with Singler is that he only scores 8.4 ppg and takes the 8th most shots on the team, even though he's probably the best outside shooter on the team. Singler is fully capable of contributing more, and needs to step up. If he shot more and scored more, he'd help address some of the imbalances on the team, such as spacing.

The other problem in grading this team is that due to chemistry issues, the whole is less than the sum of it's parts. We have lots a very talented players, but as a team, we aren't that great. I thought I was generous is giving the Pistons an overall grade of C. But that means the player's grades have to average out to pretty close to a C also, which means that some fan favorites are going to recieve lower grades than expected.

[cool breeze]

What makes basketball interesting is how fans can have such different takes on what is going on during a game. If you are a coach who is scouting a team, you need to look for actual factual examples of tendencies players have that might help you defeat that team you are scouting in a future game. However, fans seem to make judgments on players on teams they like to follow that is backed by no factual data.

As I have been out of town and couldn't watch the last two games, I just finished watching the Philly game. During this game, I tried to watch individual players on defense for a few minutes each.

First off, Jennings is fundamentally unsound on defense. He makes basic errors in positioning when his man doesn't have the basketball in his hands. Jennings makes the mistakes that my former high school players would not make. I can't think of any of my guards who didn't know that you can't stand with your back to the player you are supposed to be guarding. This happened with Jennings several times where M. C. Williams was able to move without the basketball into the lane to receive a pass for an easy basket. When the ball is in the corner and your man is on top of the key you cannot face the player with the ball so your assigned player is out of your vision. You must always keep track of where your assigned man is located on the floor. This is silly and stupid as to how the coaching staff would allow this to happen if Jennings is coachable at all. I have seen the same thing go on with Will Bynum and Stuckey at times and wonder how they can get away with it. It is a fundamental error and no team can win much of anything if this is allowed to go on.

My 2nd observation involved Monroe. He is so fundamentally unsound on defense it is amazing. Just take the time to watch him and ignore the other players a few times when Detroit is on defense. In the Philly game, KCP was guarding his man on the wing on an isolation play. He did the correct thing which is to force his man who was driving to go inside rather than outside of him. He was forcing his man into HELP. However, Monroe, who is the HELP guy was planted at the free throw line guarding nobody. He tried to recover but it was too late. Monroe did not anticipate that KCP's man would drive into an open lane. How can you not know that would happen and be ready to stop dribble penetration? Again, there is no way that a team can win games on a regular basis when players who are getting the playing time stink it up like that.

Now to Murph's grades. How in hell can Murph give Kyle Singler a grade of C?? That is so wrong is makes me think that Murph is not actually watching these games at all. How about making grades based on individual contributions to the welfare of the team using salary as a guide? If you are a highly paid player than your duty to the team should go way up. You should be contributing a lot more than a guy like Kyle Singler who is glue player that makes very little money on NBA standards. For the past two seasons with different coaching staffs, all the coaches have been saying that Singler is the one player they trust. He gives extreme effort every game doing the dirty work none of the highly paid players are willing to do. He helps others on defense. He moves without the basketball on every possession. He positions himself to rebound and boxes out. He is assigned the best player on the opposing team when he is on the floor. He has guarded power forwards, small forwards, 2 guards and even point guards this season. There is no player on this team like Kyle Singler. As Cheeks said in several interviews, he doesn't care if Singler misses shots because of the positive things he brings to the team. So Murph gives Singler a grade of C. Sorry but Singler is an A plus player for this team. He is an after thought 2nd round draft choice who is the best defender on the team and the most unselfish player on the team. If only we had other players like Singler this team would win a lot of games. I think that KCP is also the same kind of player. He is unselfish and does care about playing defense the right way. KCP is a rookie playing a real tough position. Next season I anticipate that he will have worked his ass off to show his complete game.

The real reason why this team is giving up 116, 114, 112 points a game and is the worst defensive team in the NBA is that we have highly paid players who are fundamentally unsound. There is no coach who can make those players sound at this point in their careers. The GM needs to get off his ass and sign fundamentally sound players or be fired. He keeps doing the same thing and that is why we have the worst combination of guards in the entire NBA right now. I am not saying that we need to get rid of Jennings. Jennings has real ability on offense. If we have Jennings, then we need to have two other fundamentally sound guards. We need one big guard who can defend really well and play average offense. And we need another good combo guard. KCP might fill the role of a complete player next season so all we need is one more real quality guard. Somehow, Joe Dumars never gives us that player.

[Sebastian]

The Pistons fearless leaders have a meeting about attendance at the Palace.

Gores: Men, we have to do something about the boosting the attendance at the Palace.  Have
we done anything to promote the team on social media?
Dumars:   On Facebook we got 34 likes and unfriended 2.4 million times.  You could say It has been somewhat less than a smashing success.

Gores:  How about Twitter?
Cheeks:  I tweet before and after every game.  Every time we loose I get lambasted.  I get called every nasty disgusting vile name in the English language and a few in Swahili.  My family has been cursed for the next millennium.   I've had to block a half million tweeters.  They keep coming out of the woodwork.  It's like a low budget zombie horror movie.

Gores:  How about some giveaways to entice the fans to attend?
Dumars:  We could be like Oprah Winfrey and give everyone in the audience a car.
Gores: What's 20,000 times $15,000?
Cheeks: 30 million dollars.  Such a deal!
Gores: I don't think that is really cost effective.
Dumars: How about Vespa scooters?
Cheeks:  Nobody wants to ride those Italian death cycles.

Gores: How is our web site doing?
Dumars: Bad news, boss.  The site was attacked by hackers from North Korea who posted pictures of Dennis Rodman and Kim Jung Un on every single web page.
Cheeks: At least he played for the Pistons.
Dumars:  Kim Jung Un played for us?  Damn!  You'd think I would have remembered that.  

Gores:  Let's concentrate on the giveaways.  What would fans like?  We need an untapped demographic.
Cheeks:   How about Dolly Parton wigs and bras for transvestites?
Dumars: Nuns are an untapped demographic.  We could give away bibles and rulers to whack kids' knuckles.
Cheeks: How about Disco Demolition Night?  That was popular in the 1970's.
Gores:  That did not end well for the White Sox.  The field was destroyed and they forfeited a game to the Tigers.  It may have been the biggest promotional disaster in sports history.

Dumars: Medical Marijuana is a big deal nowadays.  How about a free dose to any fan presenting a medical marijuana card at the game.  Sort of like a legal Hash Bash.
Cheeks: Far out, man.  Maybe we can get Cheech and Chong to perform at halftime. The refs could get a contact high.  They'd be so mellow.  They'd be like... "It's so cool if you don't want to dribble the ball. Take six foul shots, man.  It's all good."  Attendance would skyrocket.

Gores: Of course, if we won more games than we lost, we could pack the joint.  No pun intended.
Cheeks: That is a lot easier said than done.
Dumars: No offense but, let's try and stick to realistic attainable goals here.
Gores: I've got this weird feeling like I'm watching "Dumb and Dumber" for the fiftieth time.

The attendance has to be a serious, serious consideration of Gores, as OUR Pistons are dead last in home and away attendance percentages.

[Murph]

Ok Wise...just to show you what an open minded guy I am, I changed Charlie's grade to an Inc.   

[WTF]

The burden of being a singular playmaker weighed heavily on Brandon Jennings, so it isn’t a surprise to see the Pistons go to a mini-backcourt down the stretch in their last two wins.

Neither Jennings nor Will Bynum would qualify as a classic, pass-first point guard; both are among the smallest point guards in the league. But Jennings clearly needed help in terms of creating shots in fourth quarters, so the two were paired together and the positives have so far outweighed the negatives.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140114/SPORTS0102/301140016#ixzz2qNTTN76V


Oracle sounds like your fears may come to fruition, how horrible Burke or MCW couldn't be drafted.

[WTF]

Professor Murph, Really a B- for Monroe and a D for Charlie? I have to question the integrity of the professor grading system for this team and players. WOW! Charlie played about as much as Siva and Mitchell and Monroe stats has declined in all areas. This all sounds and reeks of favoritism and dislike not actual performance.

[Oracle]

Murph, that is one EXCELLENT midterm report!

I was going to do one, but after looking at yours, I can't really argue anything of substance about your grades!

So Instead of doing my own player by player evaluation, I'll say something that I thought before the season and promptly forgot in the heat of the actual season!

Before the season I thought that the team needed almost 3/4 of the season to get their chemistry together, and that it would be their base talent that would see them through most games.

So they've lost games they should have won, and won games they should have lost! IMO, that demonstrates that the talent is there, but the chemistry and knowing roles is a work in progress!

Cheeks, based on his own statements, will never be able to take full credit for them "Getting It", because he admits that he's waiting for them to figure it out, he's a motivator!

Still Cheeks is providing the environment, and IMO, by season end, this will look like a totally different team! They'll lumber through the season, and likely get clobbered in the playoffs, depending on seeding, but next year will be different!

Next year there will be additions and subtractions that will likely add up to an even better dynamic, so stay tuned!

[Fennis Dembo]

The Pistons fearless leaders have a meeting about attendance at the Palace.

Gores: Men, we have to do something about the boosting the attendance at the Palace. Have
we done anything to promote the team on social media?
Dumars: On Facebook we got 34 likes and unfriended 2.4 million times. You could say It has been somewhat less than a smashing success.

Gores: How about Twitter?
Cheeks: I tweet before and after every game. Every time we loose I get lambasted. I get called every nasty disgusting vile name in the English language and a few in Swahili. My family has been cursed for the next millennium. I've had to block a half million tweeters. They keep coming out of the woodwork. It's like a low budget zombie horror movie.

Gores: How about some giveaways to entice the fans to attend?
Dumars: We could be like Oprah Winfrey and give everyone in the audience a car.
Gores: What's 20,000 times $15,000?
Cheeks: 30 million dollars. Such a deal!
Gores: I don't think that is really cost effective.
Dumars: How about Vespa scooters?
Cheeks: Nobody wants to ride those Italian death cycles.

Gores: How is our web site doing?
Dumars: Bad news, boss. The site was attacked by hackers from North Korea who posted pictures of Dennis Rodman and Kim Jung Un on every single web page.
Cheeks: At least he played for the Pistons.
Dumars: Kim Jung Un played for us? Damn! You'd think I would have remembered that.

Gores: Let's concentrate on the giveaways. What would fans like? We need an untapped demographic.
Cheeks: How about Dolly Parton wigs and bras for transvestites?
Dumars: Nuns are an untapped demographic. We could give away bibles and rulers to whack kids' knuckles.
Cheeks: How about Disco Demolition Night? That was popular in the 1970's.
Gores: That did not end well for the White Sox. The field was destroyed and they forfeited a game to the Tigers. It may have been the biggest promotional disaster in sports history.

Dumars: Medical Marijuana is a big deal nowadays. How about a free dose to any fan presenting a medical marijuana card at the game. Sort of like a legal Hash Bash.
Cheeks: Far out, man. Maybe we can get Cheech and Chong to perform at halftime. The refs could get a contact high. They'd be so mellow. They'd be like... "It's so cool if you don't want to dribble the ball. Take six foul shots, man. It's all good." Attendance would skyrocket.

Gores: Of course, if we won more games than we lost, we could pack the joint. No pun intended.
Cheeks: That is a lot easier said than done.
Dumars: No offense but, let's try and stick to realistic attainable goals here.
Gores: I've got this weird feeling like I'm watching "Dumb and Dumber" for the fiftieth time.

[Murph]

Ok...I know the season isn't half way over yet.  But I thought if I don't put this out soon, everyone else will beat me to the punch.

Pistons Overall Grade:  C
    Yes, the Pistons should have won several more games in the first half.  OTOH, if    
    they continue at this pace, they will improve by 6 games from last season.  And if
    the playoffs were held today, the Pistons would qualify, achieving
    a very public goal of Tom Gores and the Pistons organization.

Individual Players

Dummond:  B
    An athletic freak of nature.  Very efficient rebounder and scorer.  Needs to improve
    his foul shooting, which is among the worst in NBA history.  Needs to improve    
    his defense.

Monroe:  B-
    A very valuable true low post scorer, and excellent rebounder.  Still needs to
    drastically improve his defense.  While his defense has actually improved
    slightly, he still has a long way to go before he's even an average defender.

Smith:  C
    Has experienced growing pains in making the transition to SF.  Needs to
    improve his mid-range and parimeter shooting, and his perimeter defense.

Jennings:  C
    Hugely talented.  Has made strides toward improving his play-making, as
    indicated by his career high 8.5 apg.  Needs to improve his playmaking ever more.
    Needs to take many, many fewer shots.  Shoots an abysmal 38% from the floor.

KCP:  C-
    Has played well, considering he's a rookie.   Over the last 6 games, has scored 11.2     ppg, on 56% shooting.  Has the potential to be a very good defender.

Stuckey:  B-
    With the help of Cheeks, Stuckey has finally, successfuly made the transition to
    combo guard off the bench, and 6th man.  

Singler:  C
   Singler does many good things, such as hustling, moving the ball and
   moving without the ball.  However, as one of the Pistons better shooters, he  
   needs to take more shots and score more from the parimeter.

Harrellson: C+
   Rebounds well, shoots well from outside, and is even a decent defender.  Maybe
   the biggest surprise of the season.

Bynum:  C-
   Bynum has improved his play-making over the years, but he's still a defensive
   liability.  Joe needs to up-grade the reserve PG position.

Billups:  D-
   I love you Chauncey, but it's time to hang up the Nikes, and begin your coaching
   career.

Jerebko:  C
   Has played surprisingly well, in very limited minutes.  But as always, it's a numbers
   game, and JJ is the 11th man in the rotation.

Villanueva:  Inc
   Only 4 more months.

Datome:  D
   Looks slow.  Will always be too small to play PF and too slow to play SF.  Has
   yet to find his shot in the NBA.

Siva:  Inc

Mitchell:  Inc

Cheeks:  C-
   His defensive strategies are questionable.  And he has yet to find a solution to the
   Big Three playing consitently well together.  Still, he's helped Jennings and
   Stuckey improve.  And the Pistons are better than last year, and still in playoff    
   contention.  He's the best coach the Pistons have had since Flip Saunders, which
   isn't saying much.

[cool breeze]

Note to Seb: This article really reinforced what you said about our problems in the half court... great call!

It also reinforced what I and a few others said, that it's NOT defense, our problem is offense in these situations.

A look at the Pistons' epic fourth quarter struggles

After a team has given up 116-114-112 points over a short range of games, there should be panic in the office of the GM who put the team together. There is something basically wrong with the roster when that happens. When the same mistakes keep happening on defense there should be panic among the owners. In five seasons the defense has become even worse then it was when Dumars started to break up a good team. If you can defend some of the time you can make up for bad shooting streaks because you can turn up the energy on defense and make stops. When you have really bad shooting slumps and play the worst defense in the league then you are in real trouble. We need different players who run hard without the ball on offense and don't settle for the low percentage long range bombs when their outside shooting percentage sucks. We need players who know how to make plays and to help make other players look better on offense. And we need a new group of players who know how to play defense and are willing to expand the energy it takes to be a successful defensive team. Finally, we need new players who can shoot free throws. You can't win if you shoot free throws like our players. Lack of concentration or work ethic you can take your pick. But the NBA is a business and your goal is to win games not provide silly half time shows. To win you need the kind of players who are dedicated to winning. Those players will already have the free throw thing worked out. That should have been worked out in high school. Remember the guy who never practiced in high school and then went to the line and lost the game for your team? We have those kind of players who have made it all the way up to the NBA.

[cool breeze]

Cheeks is faced with the same issues as banjo, cue-ball, lil Larry.........a GM who doesn't believe in PG's, or wing players who can shoot.  Makes things pretty much impossible.

Well said Flydog. I think a lot of us Piston fans could clean things up a lot just from watching the players Joe Dumars has signed over the last 5 seasons. We are frustrated with those players so would not trust them if we were in charge of the team. I know that I would be looking for guards in the minor leagues or players on current NBA team with potential to play defense, move without the ball on offense, share the ball on offense and players who have a lot of energy. I have done my share of coaching and can distinguish between the a coaches role on an NBA team vs high school or college coaching. All the players in the league know the real truth. The few teams that win the most games have players who are stronger, more skilled and in better physical condition than the players on the losing teams. No coach can make much of a difference if you have too many players in the losing group or weaker fringe players. Joe Dumars signs the weaker fringe players especially when you look at his history of picking guards. Put yourselves in the shoes of the coach of other teams that play against Detroit. They all know that Detroit guards cannot stop dribble penetration. This has been going on for 5 seasons and everyone else on opposing teams and their coaching staffs know this but Joe Dumars doesn't seem to identify what he has done.

If you are given the job as head coach and really want to improve the team then you must demand that Dumars bring up D league players on short contracts and bench the guards under contract. Find one young bigger and stronger guard somewhere who can guard someone and then take your pick of the other Piston guards under contract. I would pick Jennings and KCP as the only other guards to consider for extended playing time. Also the coach can play Singler at the 2 guard if there are no D league players who can cut it. If this happens, then either Dumars will fire the head coach again or he will be forced to admit his mistakes and make a trade for some real NBA guards.

Again this is a players league and the bigger, stronger, smarter, quicker players with a great work ethic always kick the asses of players that currently play for the Detroit Pistons. Did I mention players who almost always beat up on other NBA players are those who are in better physical condition than players who wear the Piston uniform in this ugly era for Piston fans. When you get yourself in fantastic physical condition by hard work, you always feel confident in your ability to succeed. Notice the lack of confidence in most of our players this season. Notice the confidence players like Labron James have when they play? Labron almost kills himself in the off season with drastic conditioning drills and works his ass off learning something new he can try out in the next season. We have no players that have that spirit on this Piston team. Note a recent statement from Charlie V when he said that he knew why his minutes have been limited this year. He knows that he sucks and knows why he sucks and doesn't care that he hasn't put in the necessary work to get better. We have too many players who fake it and Joe Dumars keeps picking up more of them. Good luck coaches!

[Oracle]

Note to Seb: This article really reinforced what you said about our problems in the half court... great call!

It also reinforced what I and a few others said, that it's NOT defense, our problem is offense in these situations.

A look at the Pistons' epic fourth quarter struggles

[Sparma]

Thanks for the responses concerning coaching, Oracle, Moosefan, and Lemonpen.

Oracle writes: "While there is a lot of freelancing in basketball, it's freelancing around a structural foundation!"  That strikes me as apt description in the case of Phil with his Triangle and Pops.  Maybe it's a good general statement too, although I'm not sure in the case of Cheeks. Maybe.

I suspect one thing we can agree on, Oracle, is that Pops and Cheeks are on the opposite side of the spectrum of coaching impact, with San Antonio playing in a structured way and Detroit less so.

I'd take issue with the driver and car analogy though.  At least, I can say with confidence that it doesn't fit my own experience as player and (youth) coach of organized sport.  Of course, that's a far cry from the NBA.  But if the coach were really like a driver of the car I think we'd see fewer low percentage shots, more passing, and less erratic play.  Maybe a car with a mind of its own, like Herbie.

Just read an excerpt published by SI about Wooden.  That guy was a control freak if ever there was one, telling players how to pull up their socks correctly.  SI reported that Wooden loved practices [where he would have been in control from minute to minute] but was a nervous wreck during games [from which I infer that he wasn't like a driver driving a car, but someone who needed to relinquish a lot of control].  The driver analogy may work pretty well in the case of football.

One analogy, also imperfect, that occurred to me would be that of an experienced spy who's gone into management and now sends spies out in the field with a set objective as well as with procedures to be followed, but also with the expectation of deliberate deviation and deviation dictated by circumstances.

My view is closer to Moosefan's with the analogy of the teacher and apprentice teachers.  Or maybe just teachers and apprentices.  That sounds like a fair way to characterize the Cheeks-Jennings relationship at least.

I agree with Lemonpen that the Cheeks statement indicates a problem.  At the same time, I think there's a more optimistic take.  Some of what Cheeks has said about Jennings & this statement lead me to think that Cheeks as player developed an elaborate read and response kit, or an experiential algorithm, that he, as coach, hopes to pass along to Jennings.  Jennings has his own preset tendencies and read and respond actions, so that there's an ongoing dynamic of adjusting his experiential algorithm to that which the coach is attempting to teach him.   Something similar goes on between the coach and other players, but the most intensive exchange/ teaching goes on between the coach/ former PG and the PG.  If the PG resists the teacher, as seems to happen in fourth quarters, the coach ends up having little impact.  If the PG is responsive to the teacher, really good things can happen.

[lemonpen]

I've been trying to figure out how much of an impact coaches have on a game.  An unusual comment by Cheeks (below) fits with part of how I thought it worked in the NBA.

Clearly, coaches make a difference.  Above all, they control the minutes.  Sometimes, they can give a boost of confidence to a player, as Cheeks seems to have with Stuckey.  Craig Hodges claims that the Bulls would have won earlier if Doug Collins would have installed the Triangle of his assistant Tex Winters (whom he chose to pointedly ignore instead; had they won, Phil would not have stepped in to replace him).  Sometimes specific plays are run: Larry Brown did a great job of calling plays out of timeouts, eg, for Ben Wallace.  In additon, there are standard plays that the likes of Malone and Stockton run repeatedly.  Some coaches fail to win the respect of their players (eg Frank), which make it difference.  Coaches choose the defensive schema.

On the other hand, I'm struck by how different the NBA is from the NFL, where coaches have an enormous impact.  In basketball (as in soccer), a tremendous burden falls on players to figure it out.  I think that's true for professionals as well as for rank amateurs like myself.

Evidence of the limited role of coaches?

When Phil Jackson coached in the CBA (successfully), he stressed defensive teamwork, but had the players figure out the O themselves.

At last we come to Cheeks.  He recently said [detnews]: “It’s not necessarily a plan I’m running for him [KCP], it’s just the action,” Cheeks said. “It’s like how I played. They didn’t run nothing for me, if somebody double teamed, got down the floor, you got an open shot, it’s how he scores. Running plays, you rarely, rarely do that.”

Surprising statement, which may reflect badly on Cheeks.  But I think it has the ring of truth, at least as it concerns select players.  Cheeks doesn't have much to boast about as a coach, but as a player that approach seems to have worked real well for him [granted that playing with Dr. J might have made a difference.]

Maybe Cheeks's saying, mainly, that for certain players [KCP] there aren't set plays.  That leaves open the possibility of there being set plays for others [Smith].  But part of his statement sounds sweeping: "Running plays, you rarely, rarely do that.”

The easy response would be that someone SHOULD be running a bunch of plays.  I like the basic message of Cheeks to Jennings though: the PG needs to be able to figure things out, be creative, make adjustments within the flow of the game.  Jennings needs to learn that, more so than run a set of plays.  Thus far, the execution of that message has left something to be desired.

That single quote explains a lot for me. As noted B4 and witnessed again last night our O involves little if ANY passing. It became pretty evident our strategy dictates one of two things happen: (1) the PG finds scoring opportunities for himself, or (2) whomever receives his pass should look no further and initiate offense for himself. Our O looks decent to good when we are able to infuse it with transition scoring, otherwise not so much.

Pro: - The opportunity exists for the players teach themselves how to flow and naturally spread the floor.
Cons: - A PG can't invent offense every time down the floor. It's unfair placing that expectation on Jennings.

[FlyDog]

Cheeks is faced with the same issues as banjo, cue-ball, lil Larry.........a GM who doesn't believe in PG's, or wing players who can shoot. Makes things pretty much impossible.

[WTF]

Of course I'm adding my 2 pennies to this topic   

Oracle and Sparma IMO coaches are as good as that talent they have and our players as a whole are only marginally decent at best. IMO coaches are like Teachers and Players are like Student coaches are necessarily leaders though that perception is commonly used to describe them.

LB wasn't a great play caller he was a great teacher of fundamentals who was overly praise and wrongly I might add of being a great technician and he wasn't.

I would like to kill Cheeks at time for his rotations but even Pop and others make the same mistakes with improper rotation or being too late on a time out call. Oracle you mentioned having superstars and skilled player in you post and I agree we don't have any (No Superstars, No Skilled Players) so it's hard to pin it 50% as a coaching issue. In fact when I look at our loses I can only see Jennings as the biggest factor and I say this because we have not Championships with out the likes of Isiah -Superstar or Chauncey - All Star. Sure coaches calls plays yet these guys improvised to no end, but it was all about their ability to lead a team and be creative.

Coaches and Teachers, teachers can only provide the knowledge and tools for success but it's up the students to use it. I don't think Cheeks is wrong with his approach, either the players going to figure out how to use their talents or they won't but I don't think Cheeks sits on his hands and I think he's just as smart as LB and Pop, he just not as tough and have the balls a Pop or LB had/has nor the credentials to be the stern ass they were.

[Oracle]

Cheeks went small, and IMO too small, but for a reason!

He reacted by taking both Drummond & Monroe out on a night when the 3 big men were playing well together, but it really was because of two glaring weaknesses in each big man!

Monroe's problem is lack of foot speed and horrible lateral movement! So Monroe needed to come out because he physically can't compete with smalls!

Drummond is fully capable of playing against smalls and making a big impact, but he has to come out because the Suns showed a willingness to foul him since he's a poor FT shooter, and they shoot the 3 so well!

[Oracle]

Cheeks has had success with Bynum & Jennings as the backcourt, and that scares the hell out of me!

Now he only did it in the Philly & Suns game because he was matching up to their small ball, and even there we had defensive problems, so I hope this is situational, and not something we'll see too much!

Having said that, I do prefer Bynum over the Corpse formerly known as Chauncey Billups!

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