Lack of experience playing in a good college basketball program shows with our Piston players

[cool breeze]

With the exception of Singler and KCP, our Piston players lack basic knowledge and experience in game situations where you need to use your mind and actually think ahead while playing the game. I have never seen so many mentally challenged players on one team. Think back to your high school days if you played on the team. My coach installed three different presses and along with the man to man defense we switched to a 1-3-1, 2-3, 3-2-and 1-2-2 zones depending on our matchups. And using the variety of presses especially the zone press where you force the opposing point guard down the sideline and trap at half court would often allow us to blow the other team out in the first quarter. The point of mentioning this is that we had to think on defense and know how each defense worked. If one player was not in position and not thinking, our defense wouldn't work. Last Sunday Arizona played Utah and I attended the game. Utah has lost several games but now are functioning really well and could beat almost any team in the country especially on their home court. Krystkowiak is their coach who was a former NBA player. You have to be smart to get playing time on his team. Against Arizona, Utah played a triangle and tw, a 2-3 zone, man-to-man, showed 2-3 zone and switched to man-to-man on the same possession, and gimmick defenses. Every time Arizona took the ball out of bounds, Utah switched on every screen. The befuddled Arizona team missed 10 of their first 11 shots. The point of mentioning this is that those Utah players have received a great education on how to play basketball that separates them from street players. Some college programs only play one defense but the good programs always scout the opposing team and the players tweak the defense to fit the opposition doing film work so they know the tendencies of what the other team likes to do.

With our current roster, only Kyle Singler and maybe KCP have insight on the mental game. Josh Smith missed college and has stayed at the same high school level mindset throughout his NBA career. He is naturally gifted but is not a thinker on the court. Smith could be an incredible player who could excel on both ends of the court. But I have seldom seen a player who amounts to much of anything that doesn't know their limitations and insist on repeating the same mistakes. Why does Smith launch the lazy outside shot out of impulse? Where is the discipline that one should have by the time they reach the NBA level? He always has hurt Atlanta's chances of winning games because he hasn't moved to the next level mentally like Labron has done. I can go down the list of players just like Monroe which includes, Drummond, Monroe, Stuckey, Bynum, and Jennings. Just think, we have a starting 5 that have the minds of Jr. High players. They continue to refuse to discard bad impulses. They do not work hard on their weaknesses. They are not interested in helping to make their teammates better. It is clear as a bell to me that Rodney Stuckey is only interested in padding his stats on offense because he is only concerned with himself and his next contract. And some of you fans love to plug him in as a starter or player of the future for the Piston organization. He lacks the proper mental approach to winning basketball. To have a winning basketball team, all key members of the team must agree to adjust their games to fit what is best to make the team as good as it can be. We all know that our Pistons are about the worst defensive team in the NBA if not the worst. Yet we have players like Stuckey who could be an outstanding defender but is not interested in getting any better. Notice what Brandon Knight said after his first NBA season. He said, I want to become a really good defender. He recognized that he was not a good defender and worked all summer to improve. The next season we all saw how much he had improved. I can honestly say that I have not seen one change in Stuckey's game since his arrived in Detroit. He is the same player today that he was when he came out of college. Monroe is also the same type of player he was at Georgetown. the coaching staff their had to sit him because he couldn't function on defense. He also couldn't make free throws in college and hasn't bothered to improve in that area. Drummond has worked hard once he became a Piston but didn't learn anything in college about how to play basketball the right way. So Drummond is way behind most every other NBA player relating to the mental part of the game. Jennings has never been forced to play defense at any level he has ever played. He is an incredible shooter at times and he is extremely quick. Those gifts have allowed him to make a lot of money. But can he make other players better or hold his own on defense. Is he interested in doing those two things? Can he break a lifetime of bad habits? Charlie V is another example of what one could call a bad student in the classroom. He hasn't improved in any area since he came out of college as a player. He is the same guy but has made millions. Why would any GM sign Charlie V?

Where is Joe Dumars fit in with this mess that has been created within the Piston team? Why can't Dumars identify what I am saying and be looking for players who have the ability to win in the NBA. Our players all have special talent but are not the kind of players who are capable of changing their games for the benefit of a team. I see a lack of basic discipline every game that I watch from the same players that I have been watching for several years. Yet Joe keeps them on the team and gives away other players who do have the ability to adjust and become better team orientated players.

No coach can help our key players. It is like a drug addict who cannot break their habit unless THEY decide to change. No member of the family or mentor can help them until they make the commitment to change. Our players are comfortable with their contracts. They are not the type of players who ever change and lack the basic knowledge as a younger person to make the change. As the former Detroit talk show host Mark Scott used to say, " they don't know that they don't know". Meanwhile all we see as fans is lame stupid street basketball.

[Sebastian]

This week, starting tonight WE have the Magic at the Palace. Will OUR Pistons play like they give a damn, tonight?

Tomorrow, OUR Pistons travel to Atlanta, to face the Hawks the squad that may have been the first to expose OUR '13-'14 Pistons, when they pimp slapped during a home-and-home series back in late November or early December.

Then, Saturday WE have another home affair with the '76ers, a team that plays harder and more organized than OUR '12-'13 Pistons.

This, indeed, may be the final week of the season for OUR '13-'14 Pistons.

[WTF]

Jose Calderon (detnews): “Well I felt I was coming back in the beginning,” Calderon said. ‘We were in contact with Joe (Dumars). We were waiting, waiting until Dallas came with an offer and I had to take it.”

In an alternative reality, that's not far-fetched, we would have drafted MCW, then signed Calderon (even after signing Smith).   You'd start Calderon alongside Stuckey, then bring MCW and Knight off the bench.

You'd be seeing some organization via Calderon and MCW and nice backcourt balance.  You'd also have Middleton coming off of the bench as an able shooter.

That would have been a much better team.

Yes...in hindsight, we should have re-signed Calderon, drafted Burke or MCW, and kept Knight and Middleton.


Sparma...you once wrote a post comparing Joe to a "replacement GM", where a replacement GM would be the kind of GM who would make the obvious moves, and not make any risky trades,  risky FA signing, or risky draft choices.

In this example, a replacement GM surely would have drafted Burke (the obvious choice for many reasons), and would not have traded Knight and Middleton for Jennings (as Jennings represented a big risk due to his reputation as a ball hog).  I'm not sure if the obvious move would have been to resign Calderon.

But my point is, the Pistons would have been much better off with a replacement GM.  The Pistons would have been much better off if their GM had just made the obvious moves last summer, and not tried to be smarter than everyone else.

Yep I agree.  No way would be sitting with the record we have currently with a back-court of Calderon, Burke, Stuckey and Knight but Joe dumb ass opted for Jennings, Bynum, Billups and KCP.  Yeah close your eyes and imagine Calderon and Burke closing out games with Smith, Monore Middleton on the floor.   

This also say Gores a dumb ass as well because he signed off drafting KCP and passing on Burke. As a owner Joe would have been fired for that move unless the owner ok'd that dumb sh!t.

[WTF]

I'm so sick and tired of hearing how and at what level a coach needs to teach players. At times it's like sending a 3rd grader to college and expecting the professor teach him algebra while the the 3rd graders has really grasp the basic concepts of doing division problems.

Honestly stop draft these guys after 1 year of college and make it an requirement that 4 years of college is required before entering the NBA. Really I'm tired of hearing about how a coach isn't babying a player enough or about how young they are for all the fu2king money they're making. This sh!t is getting stupid and killing the game of basketball and making it a joke to watch, it has become a clown show.

Wow! Imagine Medical School Students leaving early because they were drafted by a Medical Institution based solely on their potential before they actually graduated and learned any surgical procedure or properly administer medication. Here millions of dollars are given to fu2king basketball players that can't properly box out, set a pick, yet alone shoot the fu2king ball and we whine about how a coach handles them.

Fu2k Andre and his hurt feelings about being yanked, fu2k Monroe and his lack of a mid-range shot about trade rumors and any player making a sh!t load of money. I'm so tired of hearing phrases "he's still young" and the overstating of pending potential forthcoming after a second contract been inked. Lets talk a players potential only after they've actually learned how to fu2king play because if you draft these guys should they at least know fu2kin fundamentals.

Seriously we have drafted in the Top Ten 4 times already and somewhere you would hope at least one of these Top Ten Motherfu2kers would be consistently playing like an All Star or consistently playing like one. Our players suck and some of you need to stop acting as if we drafted the next Kobe, Lebron, KG, Melo, Durant, Rose the player players we have are an eye blink away from being scrub journeymen in this league if they can't get their sh!t together quickly. They have a sh!t approach and attitude towards the game that's aided by the local media and a homer fan base.

[Murph]

It's A easy decision. Start Singler over Josh Smith. Nobody will be mad after A winning streak.

You rotate your bigs. The pistons don't play them together any longer anyways!!! Josh Smith still gets his 30-something minutes per game. It's A easy decision in my eyes.

In between time, Joe searches for A small forward or starting 2 guard....

IF the Pistons could stop team from scoring 100 Points every-game, I thing they could get in the 6,7, or 8th playoff spot.

The real question is do the players believe it?? It's going to take A lot of will power to pull these guys together.

Philip...good post.  I agree Cheeks needs to change his starting line-up in an attempt to imrpove chemistry.

It might not work, but Cheeks needs to try something.

[Murph]

Jose Calderon (detnews): “Well I felt I was coming back in the beginning,” Calderon said. ‘We were in contact with Joe (Dumars). We were waiting, waiting until Dallas came with an offer and I had to take it.”

In an alternative reality, that's not far-fetched, we would have drafted MCW, then signed Calderon (even after signing Smith).   You'd start Calderon alongside Stuckey, then bring MCW and Knight off the bench.

You'd be seeing some organization via Calderon and MCW and nice backcourt balance.  You'd also have Middleton coming off of the bench as an able shooter.

That would have been a much better team.

Yes...in hindsight, we should have re-signed Calderon, drafted Burke or MCW, and kept Knight and Middleton.


Sparma...you once wrote a post comparing Joe to a "replacement GM", where a replacement GM would be the kind of GM who would make the obvious moves, and not make any risky trades,  risky FA signing, or risky draft choices.

In this example, a replacement GM surely would have drafted Burke (the obvious choice for many reasons), and would not have traded Knight and Middleton for Jennings (as Jennings represented a big risk due to his reputation as a ball hog).  I'm not sure if the obvious move would have been to resign Calderon.

But my point is, the Pistons would have been much better off with a replacement GM.  The Pistons would have been much better off if their GM had just made the obvious moves last summer, and not tried to be smarter than everyone else.

[Phil-Good]

It's A easy decision. Start Singler over Josh Smith. Nobody will be mad after A winning streak.

You rotate your bigs. The pistons don't play them together any longer anyways!!! Josh Smith still gets his 30-something minutes per game. It's A easy decision in my eyes.

In between time, Joe searches for A small forward or starting 2 guard. Then I would move KCP or the new 2-guard over to small forward. That should help to cure the problem on defense that the Pistons have.

IF the Pistons could stop team from scoring 100 Points every-game, I thing they could get in the 6,7, or 8th playoff spot.

The real question is do the players believe it?? It's going to take A lot of will power to pull these guys together.

[WTF]

You go all season long with speculated trade rumors concerning Moose and he whines the rumors are getting to him and now Pistons speak out they're not shopping him. RIGHT!

Be careful Moose Man when Joe say's he ain't doing something he's usually doing it   Your ass might be gone next week.

[Oracle]

A business associate sent this youtube link to me because they were having this woman speak at one of their offsite meetings. I don't know, but she looks awfully butch to me, but her message is interesting, and applies to these Pistons... Embracing Discipline!

[Oracle]

@Sparma - Yup, that would have been a step in a very good direction! While I too thought MCW was the guard for us, I would take him or Burke over what we have now!

@Lemon - I think he should have benched Drummond earlier as well... for good! I argued for it, but I also hope as you do that this is the start of making players EARN PT, and that's what we thought was going to happen in the first place.

This is a prime case of gifting positions without a real competition! Andre will be great one day, but that day isn't today, Monroe & Josh have more polished games overall, IMO, and that shouldn't be surprising!

In addition, I think you need to hold those players more accountable than Drummond, so having him come off the bench takes the pressure off and allows the learning to begin better.

The problem is that they've made him a starter and it's hard to take something away once you've "Gifted" it!

[lemonpen]

Probably should have happened sooner. I hope it marks a new, less tolerant Mo. Can 't wait to see who gets it next. Time is running out. Come on Mo, channel your inner LB.

[Sparma]

Jose Calderon (detnews): “Well I felt I was coming back in the beginning,” Calderon said. ‘We were in contact with Joe (Dumars). We were waiting, waiting until Dallas came with an offer and I had to take it.”

In an alternative reality, that's not far-fetched, we would have drafted MCW, then signed Calderon (even after signing Smith). You'd start Calderon alongside Stuckey, then bring MCW and Knight off the bench.

You'd be seeing some organization via Calderon and MCW and nice backcourt balance. You'd also have Middleton coming off of the bench as an able shooter.

That would have been a much better team.

[Oracle]

The level of disrespect and vitriol you have for the players is disturbing, at least to me!

None of these guys are dumb! Josh Smith isn't dumb, Jennings isn't dumb, they're untrained, and Cheeks is not a trainer coach! Trainers don't just tell people what they're doing wrong(the way you make it sound), they show them the right way and punish them after some period of non-performance... not singling out any specific player!

Nobody questions if he should discipline players, but in life, when and what you do matters, Cheeks made a mistake with Drummond just as he did with Josh!

Cheeks is also not dumb, there's a difference between getting the right balance and being dumb!

How can Drummond stomach a benching when so many others are worse and aren't benched? It's stupid on it's face, and serves to cause disruption within the team, and that's why Drummond doesn't want to talk about it because he would have to call out teammates that aren't doing their job... that's putting the youngster in a no win situation, which of course you appear to approve of!

Step one is before people start calling these names like you're doing, Cheeks needs to get as many players playing at their natural positions as possible... that's what a manager does, put people in the best possible position to succeed!

That isn't happening, but I'm going to leave this alone because your posts have been for the most part right on and constructive. However, these last few bother me when you look down on these players that way.

I hope that I'm taking what you say wrong, but I don't think so!

[cool breeze]

It sounds as if Cheeks is beginning to lose the team.  Cheeks has been pulling Monroe after mistakes and sitting him for the 4th quarter, which Monroe seems to be taking in stride.  But when Cheeks benched Drummond for mistakes, Drummond was clearly unhappy.  Drummond needs to grow a thicker skin.

I certainly don't blame Cheeks for the entire collapse.  While Cheeks might not be a good coach, he's trying his hardest to get these guys to defend.  What's Cheeks supposed to do?

However, if Cheeks is going to start pulling players after mistakes, I'd like to see him pull Smith once in a while, after clanging his usual 10 long range jump shots, and pull Jennings once in a while for his usual ball hogging, pathetic shooting, horrendous defense and poor decision making.  It's unfair of Cheeks to only bench Monroe and Drummond.


But before I start blaming Cheeks, or Monroe, or Drummond, and calling for them to be dumped...I'd fire Dumars.

If this team needs to be blown up, Joe should be the very first to go.

Good one Murph. You are right about Monroe and some others who "take it in stride" when they are sent to the bench. Maybe they don't know what they did wrong even though coaches have told them 50 times what they did wrong. Yes Dumars needs to be the first person to go and then get rid of over half of the current roster.

[cool breeze]

First off this the the most mentally challenged group of players on any one team that I have ever seen at any level except for perhaps 5th and 6th graders. No coach can make any sense of this team. Mo Cheeks is not a stupid man or a bad coach. Nobody can coach this group. For this group of players, there are too many players who are not fundamentally sound. Because they lack the basic skills you need to play at the NBA level, other teams exploit their weaknesses which are many. At the NBA level, no coach can get players to react to situations. You already have to know something before you get on the floor. This is a team of individuals who are only interested in improving their stats. So Oracle you are dead wrong about your idea that the coach should have kept Drummond in the game so he could get his double double. It means nothing at all for people and players who want to actually win games. Maxiell should be on the All Star team when compared to the current Piston big men. The guards are not smart players. Who can say any of them are smart guys who are on the same level of most other NBA guards?

Now on to specific players and how they screwed up the works.

Stuckey in the 3rd quarter is playing point guard. Smith makes two free throws which is a miracle and Detroit is hanging around. Calderon then takes the inbound pass and dribbles up the court. Stuckey is assigned to guard Calderon. However, Stuckey has a brain fart and just stands with his arms spread at the free throw line not guarding anyone. For those of you who have taped the game take a look. Calderon gets passed half court and Nowitzki jogs up to his favorite spot at the top of the key. He doesn't bother to set a pick on Stuckey because Stuckey is not even looking at Calderon, the man he is supposed to be guarding. Everyone in the NBA knows that Calderon can hit a medium range jump shot with nobody on him. As Stuckey is thinking about what he is going to do after the game, Calderon dribbles over to the left side and moves in going up for an easy jump shot for a high school player. Stuckey, at the last minute takes two steps towards Calderon but it is too late. Those free throws made by Smith were canceled out because our 8.5 million dollar man was not interested enough to concentrate on the game. Now some will say Stuckey was solid in this game. No Stuckey is only interested in getting his scoring average up for the next contract. He could care less about winning or losing. He has it made. Stuckey is collecting 8.5 million so who cares about the Detroit Pistons.

At the 7:47 minute mark of the 4th quarter Monroe is guarding Nowitzki. Derk goes out to his favorite spot beyond the 3 point line. Monroe decides to go the opposite direction into the paint because a Dallas guard is driving. Monroe has no chance of protecting the paint to stop the guard so he should have stayed with Nowitzki. The result is Nowitzki getting the kick out pass and an easy look for another 3 point shot. What some fans might have seen was Singler who was defending Marion at the time run hard out to try to get a hand in the face of Nowitzki. Meanwhile, Monroe got 20 points in that game and 9 rebounds. Those stats mean nothing to anyone but Monroe because he could not defend anyone and didn't give the necessary effort on defense to prevent another embarrassing loss.

Smith played hard and scored 25 points in that game. Some fans would say he is really improving relating to effort. But if you were watching Smith try to play small forward especially in the first half of that game, you would wonder what planet he is on. Smith was guarding marion but never seemed to know where Marion was at on the floor. Smith turned his back almost every time Dallas had the ball in the first half. Smith was trying to help out the two mentally challenged starting big men on defense but you can't turn your back and not know where your man is on the floor. How many times did Marion slip behind Smith to get a pass for an easy basket or get a offensive rebound on the weak side? This is basic stuff that you cannot do in high school and see the floor as a player. Tell me any coach in the world can coach Josh Smith. He makes a great play and then screws up. His stats are great though.

Jennings was Detroit's high scorer for the game with 26 points. At times I think this guy is great but he will not defend anyone. I watched him so the same stuff Stuckey does on defense. They just don't care enough to concentrate and then shake their heads after the other team has made a fool out of them.

Lack of the ability to concentrate shows up with lack of the ability to make free throws. Have any of you ever seen such a group of players at any level of basketball shoot free throws as poorly. I have coached at various levels and only 6th, 7th, and 8th grades may have been worse as a group. The Pistons are supposed to employ the best players in the world because they have a NBA franchise.

Finally, I can't imagine how these players can come home to their families and not be embarrassed about how they play their sport as a professional athlete. What must it be like to make all that money but be laughed at because you are classified as a dumb player that opponents exploit. You have to have something going on upstairs before a coach can help you. Nothing is going on upstairs with many of the current Piston players. You fans who keep saying it is the coaches fault are so far off base it is funny. Nobody in their right mind would want to coach this group of Piston players. You would only do it for the money knowing your job is impossible.

[cool breeze]

Drummond was pulled last night in a move similar to the silly way Cheeks tried to punish Josh Smith! Was Drummond crappy on defense? Yeah, but he was also working on a string of double doubles, and to hurt him like that going into all star festivities is a crime Larry Frank would be proud of!

"And pulling that on Drummond isn't necessarily a move that goes against player development. Teaching players they have to be accountable for their play and what they're responsible for is certainly a good thing. A lot of players get so angry about the perceived disrespect that they respond with a vengeance. I don't know enough about Drummond's personality to know whether that's the case here.

But I do know one thing. Not holding the other members of the team accountable while doing it with a young player isn't a good approach.

Yes, Josh Smith was benched for missing a practice that wasn't pre-scheduled and announced on a flight. But of all the things Smith has done this season, like shooting 3.6 three-pointers per game or playing uncharacteristically awful defense, to bench him for that is like grounding a pyromaniac for littering with the kindling he used." - Drummond upset with quick hook from Cheeks in loss to Mavs

That's a red flag in my opinion that goes beyond the pale!

But it's the coaching that appears to be so hard to understand for me, that others appear to recognize, but minimize at some level and assign it to Joe, but this isn't Joe!

"But generally speaking, the big problem with Detroit is that no one is moving away from what they do poorly. The Mavericks are a great counterpoint, as Rick Carlisle has taken a poor defender in Jose Calderon and hid him, making his offense the relevant contribution, and taken an inefficient scorer in Monta Ellis and put him in position to shoot 46 percent on the season.

Instead, Brandon Jennings does pretty much whatever he wants, Josh Smith does the opposite of what you want, everyone freelances on defense, and no one is every restrained towards something that makes sense. It's Lord of the Flies out there... except for Drummond and rookie Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, apparently. Now, this happens a lot and it seems crazy to the naked eye, but coaches are able to identify blown rotations and problematic tendencies that the young guys have to correct and that the veterans have gotten out of their system with time and experience.

A good example? The Pistons actually allow fewer points in the paint (41.7 per 48 minutes) with Drummond off the court than on (43.6 per 48 minutes via NBA.com). Their defense is 6.1 points better per 100 possessions with Drummond off the court. There's legitimate reason for concern. But the fourth quarter issues aside, singling out Drummond seems awfully misguided. The Pistons are going to improve collectively or completely fall apart (even more) collectively. All this does is further the trust between a roster and the coach trying to find answers." - Same Article

It's coaching folks! Joe has made mistakes, and he's likely gone if they can't make the right changes, but this isn't Joe, it just isn't!

The really good news is that any team in the east is one good win streak from being 4-5th seed! There's time to correct this, but it needs to start ASAP!

Perhaps, Dre Drummond can get Mo' fired, since Dre is the OUR future and at this moment the only "sacred cow" on the roster.

Sorry but I do not believe any of this nonsense. How many times have fans blamed the coaches? Drummond was AWOL mentally in the Dallas game. Mo Cheeks was correct to bench him. And Harrellison helped bring the team back with his defense in the 2nd half. Drummond should not have had any minutes to support his chances of getting some designation. Drummond was out of position all night. He had no idea what he was doing and his effort in the first half should have given any coach the justification to bench him for the entire game. The same of crap. It is always the coach. Never the mentally challenged players who are wearing the Piston uniform.

[Sebastian]

Drummond was pulled last night in a move similar to the silly way Cheeks tried to punish Josh Smith! Was Drummond crappy on defense? Yeah, but he was also working on a string of double doubles, and to hurt him like that going into all star festivities is a crime Larry Frank would be proud of!

"And pulling that on Drummond isn't necessarily a move that goes against player development. Teaching players they have to be accountable for their play and what they're responsible for is certainly a good thing. A lot of players get so angry about the perceived disrespect that they respond with a vengeance. I don't know enough about Drummond's personality to know whether that's the case here.

But I do know one thing. Not holding the other members of the team accountable while doing it with a young player isn't a good approach.

Yes, Josh Smith was benched for missing a practice that wasn't pre-scheduled and announced on a flight. But of all the things Smith has done this season, like shooting 3.6 three-pointers per game or playing uncharacteristically awful defense, to bench him for that is like grounding a pyromaniac for littering with the kindling he used." - Drummond upset with quick hook from Cheeks in loss to Mavs

That's a red flag in my opinion that goes beyond the pale!

But it's the coaching that appears to be so hard to understand for me, that others appear to recognize, but minimize at some level and assign it to Joe, but this isn't Joe!

"But generally speaking, the big problem with Detroit is that no one is moving away from what they do poorly. The Mavericks are a great counterpoint, as Rick Carlisle has taken a poor defender in Jose Calderon and hid him, making his offense the relevant contribution, and taken an inefficient scorer in Monta Ellis and put him in position to shoot 46 percent on the season.

Instead, Brandon Jennings does pretty much whatever he wants, Josh Smith does the opposite of what you want, everyone freelances on defense, and no one is every restrained towards something that makes sense. It's Lord of the Flies out there... except for Drummond and rookie Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, apparently. Now, this happens a lot and it seems crazy to the naked eye, but coaches are able to identify blown rotations and problematic tendencies that the young guys have to correct and that the veterans have gotten out of their system with time and experience.

A good example? The Pistons actually allow fewer points in the paint (41.7 per 48 minutes) with Drummond off the court than on (43.6 per 48 minutes via NBA.com). Their defense is 6.1 points better per 100 possessions with Drummond off the court. There's legitimate reason for concern. But the fourth quarter issues aside, singling out Drummond seems awfully misguided. The Pistons are going to improve collectively or completely fall apart (even more) collectively. All this does is further the trust between a roster and the coach trying to find answers." - Same Article

It's coaching folks! Joe has made mistakes, and he's likely gone if they can't make the right changes, but this isn't Joe, it just isn't!

The really good news is that any team in the east is one good win streak from being 4-5th seed! There's time to correct this, but it needs to start ASAP!

Perhaps, Dre Drummond can get Mo' fired, since Dre is the OUR future and at this moment the only "sacred cow" on the roster.

[Oracle]

Drummond was pulled last night in a move similar to the silly way Cheeks tried to punish Josh Smith! Was Drummond crappy on defense? Yeah, but he was also working on a string of double doubles, and to hurt him like that going into all star festivities is a crime Larry Frank would be proud of!

"And pulling that on Drummond isn't necessarily a move that goes against player development. Teaching players they have to be accountable for their play and what they're responsible for is certainly a good thing. A lot of players get so angry about the perceived disrespect that they respond with a vengeance. I don't know enough about Drummond's personality to know whether that's the case here.

But I do know one thing. Not holding the other members of the team accountable while doing it with a young player isn't a good approach.

Yes, Josh Smith was benched for missing a practice that wasn't pre-scheduled and announced on a flight. But of all the things Smith has done this season, like shooting 3.6 three-pointers per game or playing uncharacteristically awful defense, to bench him for that is like grounding a pyromaniac for littering with the kindling he used." - Drummond upset with quick hook from Cheeks in loss to Mavs

That's a red flag in my opinion that goes beyond the pale!

But it's the coaching that appears to be so hard to understand for me, that others appear to recognize, but minimize at some level and assign it to Joe, but this isn't Joe!

"But generally speaking, the big problem with Detroit is that no one is moving away from what they do poorly. The Mavericks are a great counterpoint, as Rick Carlisle has taken a poor defender in Jose Calderon and hid him, making his offense the relevant contribution, and taken an inefficient scorer in Monta Ellis and put him in position to shoot 46 percent on the season.

Instead, Brandon Jennings does pretty much whatever he wants, Josh Smith does the opposite of what you want, everyone freelances on defense, and no one is every restrained towards something that makes sense. It's Lord of the Flies out there... except for Drummond and rookie Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, apparently. Now, this happens a lot and it seems crazy to the naked eye, but coaches are able to identify blown rotations and problematic tendencies that the young guys have to correct and that the veterans have gotten out of their system with time and experience.

A good example? The Pistons actually allow fewer points in the paint (41.7 per 48 minutes) with Drummond off the court than on (43.6 per 48 minutes via NBA.com). Their defense is 6.1 points better per 100 possessions with Drummond off the court. There's legitimate reason for concern. But the fourth quarter issues aside, singling out Drummond seems awfully misguided. The Pistons are going to improve collectively or completely fall apart (even more) collectively. All this does is further the trust between a roster and the coach trying to find answers." - Same Article

It's coaching folks! Joe has made mistakes, and he's likely gone if they can't make the right changes, but this isn't Joe, it just isn't!

The really good news is that any team in the east is one good win streak from being 4-5th seed! There's time to correct this, but it needs to start ASAP!

[Oracle]

Hey guys, let's keep things in perspective!

I for one have NEVER even once called for Cheeks to be fired, although I have mused that Joe may be beyond his expiration date.

But Cheeks problems are of his own making, and the solution to his problems are well within his hands!

Here are the Cheeks red flags, that Joe has nothing to do with:

1. He gets here, full of himself, and his first big event comes in the form of a police blotter - Red Flag!

2. He has a penchant for doing things that don't make sense from a basketball perspective, in an attempt to get attention. Sitting with Fans is beyond strange - Red Flag!

3. He jumped all over Josh Smith in some lame attempt to beat down the alpha dog to shore up his cred with the rest of the players, but it was strange and the crimes never met the standard for punishment - Red Flag!

4. I complained that he was lost when it came to calling timeouts, that he watched runs like a spectator and did nothing. You don't do that with a young team learning, that's for veteran teams - Red Flag!

5. Stunningly, it's the same thing with his lineups! It's crying for more than a cosmetic change, and just like with timeouts, Cheeks is paralyzed! A deer in the headlights, unable to move with a truck coming - Red Flag!

However, I don't blame and complain to get someone fired, that's for Lee357! I do it to foster dialog around ways to get out of this mess, firing will take care of itself when the season is over!

But lineup changes without a good analysis of the roster would be dumb, but fortunately, there is a lot of analysis out there!

I've said before that Cheeks needed help, he's a veteran team coach(noted by many before he came here) or a motivational assistant coach(just my opinion), so he is out of his role here because we're not a veteran team!

I'm not pessimistic about this team's players, I'm pessimistic about Joe & Cheeks putting their heads together to make the roster work!

You mean to tell me that a team that featured a frontline of Monroe & Maxiell should look better than a frontline featuring Monroe & Josh Smith? I don't think so!

However, we all know that a move will need to be made to get at least one additional shooter into the fold!

But Don makes a good point. Outside of Stuckey, the FT shooting on this team is something I've never seen before, and can't understand! Really no excuse to shoot FT's that low a percentage, it's all about practice and concentration!

[WTF]

It sounds as if Cheeks is beginning to lose the team.  Cheeks has been pulling Monroe after mistakes and sitting him for the 4th quarter, which Monroe seems to be taking in stride.  But when Cheeks benched Drummond for mistakes, Drummond was clearly unhappy.  Drummond needs to grow a thicker skin.

I certainly don't blame Cheeks for the entire collapse.  While Cheeks might not be a good coach, he's trying his hardest to get these guys to defend.  What's the guy supposed to do?

However, if Cheeks is going to start pulling players after mistakes, I'd like to see him pull Smith once in a while, after clanging his usual 10 long range jump shots, and pull Jennings once in a while for his usual ball hogging, pathetic shooting and poor decision making.


But before I start blaming Cheeks, or Monroe, or Drummond, and calling for them to be dumped...I'd fire Dumars.

If this team needs to be blown up, Joe should be the very first to go.

Murph I'm all for the firing of Joe have been for years now. As for Cheeks yanking players Josh has probably been the most affected but it's been mainly for defense and his mouth.

[Murph]

It sounds as if Cheeks is beginning to lose the team.  Cheeks has been pulling Monroe after mistakes and sitting him for the 4th quarter, which Monroe seems to be taking in stride.  But when Cheeks benched Drummond for mistakes, Drummond was clearly unhappy.  Drummond needs to grow a thicker skin.

I certainly don't blame Cheeks for the entire collapse.  While Cheeks might not be a good coach, he's trying his hardest to get these guys to defend.  What's Cheeks supposed to do?

However, if Cheeks is going to start pulling players after mistakes, I'd like to see him pull Smith once in a while, after clanging his usual 10 long range jump shots, and pull Jennings once in a while for his usual ball hogging, pathetic shooting, horrendous defense and poor decision making. It's unfair of Cheeks to only bench Monroe and Drummond.


But before I start blaming Cheeks, or Monroe, or Drummond, and calling for them to be dumped...I'd fire Dumars.

If this team needs to be blown up, Joe should be the very first to go.

[WTF]

Going into halftime, I thought that this was one of the most pathetic efforts any team has made for a long time. Drummond was trailing almost every player much like Darko used to do in transition. He got one dunk because he didn't even bother to go past half court while watching his teammates play defense. Monroe and Drummond are about the worst big men defenders in the league. They continually switch off their man causing mismatches and easy shots for the opposition. I would start playing Harrellison. Tell Harrellison that he can secure a lot of playing time if he defends. Harrellison is smarter and more determined than our two lazy big men.

Have any of you ever seen such a horrible free throw shooting team as a group in your entire lives? Nobody can play defense and few can make a simple free throw. My best guess is that Detroit could have won at least 10 more games if the players had ever bothered to work on their free throws.

I cannot wear my Piston hat if that can be used as a symbol of how things have gone sour in Piston land. We can only point to Joe Dumars who reminds me of many of the Western European generals in the 1st World War. Out of touch with the present, past and future was what I was saying to myself last summer when Joe put this team together. My worst nightmare has been realized relating to Piston basketball. Even one big trade would not change things much. There are too many weak players on this team. I would trade the entire roster for that of the Bucks right now. I see potential in that roster.

Don this is exactly why I don't jump all over Cheeks because as much as we can say the players are talented we can also attach things like being lazy, and un-fundamentally sound as a group. If this group can't grasp the simplicity of the current offense and defense of Cheeks how can anyone think that they will grasp LF or any other coaches schemes.

I'm so sick and tired of watching oppose guard run layup drills and dunk lines on our big players with no to very little resistance. They want draw a charge, or defend the rim or properly box out but they'll get some fouls on ticky tack dumb ass half efforts at defending.

[cool breeze]

Going into halftime, I thought that this was one of the most pathetic efforts any team has made for a long time. Drummond was trailing almost every player much like Darko used to do in transition. He got one dunk because he didn't even bother to go past half court while watching his teammates play defense. Monroe and Drummond are about the worst big men defenders in the league. They continually switch off their man causing mismatches and easy shots for the opposition. I would start playing Harrellison. Tell Harrellison that he can secure a lot of playing time if he defends. Harrellison is smarter and more determined than our two lazy big men.

Have any of you ever seen such a horrible free throw shooting team as a group in your entire lives? Nobody can play defense and few can make a simple free throw. My best guess is that Detroit could have won at least 10 more games if the players had ever bothered to work on their free throws.

I cannot wear my Piston hat if that can be used as a symbol of how things have gone sour in Piston land. We can only point to Joe Dumars who reminds me of many of the Western European generals in the 1st World War. Out of touch with the present, past and future was what I was saying to myself last summer when Joe put this team together. My worst nightmare has been realized relating to Piston basketball. Even one big trade would not change things much. There are too many weak players on this team. I would trade the entire roster for that of the Bucks right now. I see potential in that roster.

[WTF]

It's not that I'm not getting what what everyone is saying and initially I was thinking the same things that in a relatively weak conference we should be sitting in a better position than we are. I can contribute some of it to Cheeks coaching, Joe building of the roster but there also the element of talent level on this roster.

Yes ultimately Cheeks carry the larger portion of burden and responsibility for the loses but not totally the cause and effect of how the roster was constructed and the level of talent currently on it IMO. I say this in part because it is hard to imagine an former All Star, NBA Championship who played in a "Fundamentally Rich" environment of the late 70's and 80's not know the game and how it should be properly played. It is easily recognizable to see that the players lack both the fundamentals and Basketball IQ which is why I'm always questioning the talent level.

I remember Joe once making the comment that it doesn't matter how talented you are, or how fast you run or how high you jump if you can't think and play smart sound basketball. While I agree that we have a large amount of talent over many of the team in the East we're not nearly as smart and this is why we're losing. The team gets by at times with the talent but can't think properly to compete down the stretch.

Both my above comments are reasons I called this team an ENIGMA because it really is impossible to think Cheeks is a dumb ass and that the players BB IQ is almost none existing. Where I find fault with Cheeks is that he doesn't draw a hard line in the sand with these players. In between tip off and the final buzzer we see everything and if it's an "L" it's all on the coach, but I learn something in reading Don's post and pay attention to Andre defending the rim softly, I see Singler, KCP and Stuckey cheating off shooters, I see how we don't box out, I see the bad decision making of Jennings, and bad shot selection of Josh. This stuff shows itself in closing moments of the game.

Cheeks doesn't have a sh!t load of plays I agree, but this team can't fundamentally execute the simple things he does call and it becomes a matter of executing than it is with play calling. Hard to imagine that Cheeks let or want them free-lancing which in many cases have them standing around as Jennings dribbles out the clock only to find Josh late 30-70 chance on the perimeter.

Enigma!

[Oracle]

On Calderon, you don't seem to understand that things are relative! I know I can talk out of my butt sometimes, but I do try to post with some purpose, and I mentioned the relative nature of what we're talking about, but you insist on using absolutes!

"Don't want to blame Cheeks? Ok, but IMO, something is wrong there, because it isn't lack of talent when you look at these players and this record of performance against this weak a competition!" - Oracle

You can't say the things you say without factoring in the level of competition! You know, that's the reason they have weight classes in boxing, and why in college football they have division levels, all competition is not equal!

Against the competition in the east, if you think that this team should be doing this bad, then I'm shocked you have any respect for any players on this team!

Stop blaming players who can't play themselves, and who keep playing no matter how putrid they behave on court, or miss assignments, or how badly they play... it's 100% coaching to make those determinations!

Face it Cheeks at this point in time is one the worst coaches we've had in a long time by almost any measure!

But that doesn't mean he can't turn it around, unless he believes like you do that it's the players fault, in which case he really doesn't have to do squat!

On Moose: You're 100% right, this is pu$$y talk coming out of Monroe!

But I'm glad you're coming around to what I've been posting about Drummond! He's the logical big to send to the bench! We'll lose a little bit on defense, but Josh Smith will become a more imposing defensive force that, IMO, the net will actually be better defense!

"But here's something funny I'm starting to think we need to trade Drummond ass oppose to Moose or removing his ass from the starting unit and decreasing his PT to 20 minutes. Put Moose exclusively back at center move Josh to PF and start Singler and Stuckey and bring KCP and Drummond ass off the bench with Bynum." - Wise

Drummond really adds little on offense in the way of an attack, just garbage, although he does fill the lane much better than Monroe on the fast break, but again, Josh can do that just as well!

Then with the 3 headed monster of Bynum, Drummond & Stuckey, all of a sudden your bench becomes imposing and capable of expanding any lead while destroying any 2nd unit! It's a smart move!!!

But Wise... this is 100& coaching!!! We could perform a lot better, and it won't be because the players got a lot smarter, but the coach got a lot smarter! Then when that works, the chemistry builds, and dudes like you start saying we have great talent  

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