Cap

[lemonpen]

I'm all for trading CV and JJ for Afflalo..........but how far into the conversation do you think Joe would get before Orlando's GM bursts into laughter.  Why would Orlando do that?!?!?!

No laughter they'll gladly take CV expiring contract and JJ just to rid themselves of big baby and been shopping Affalo since the beginning of the season. Cap wise it's a win for them to clear AA 3 years remaining and Big Baby 2years that's like 11 million they'll free up.  

FYI #1,  
Orlando will be at $35M next year without making a move.
FYI #2,  
Arron Afflalo is one of the best value players in the L.    21ppg / 4A / 5R / 46% fg / 41% 3p / 87% ft.  His All Star numbers come at only $7.5 mil. (we have Stuckey @ $8.5)  AA is their team MVP.  Lastly, his final year is a team option.  I believe he would be classified a "sho nuf keeper".

Forgot to mention he hasn't missed a game.

[merc]

Wise, I don't think anyone here is saying we should never trade Moose... the fact is that this 3 headed force is working right now... it should be given a fair chance before pulling the trigger... things could continue to improve.
Let's say we deal Moose for a conventional SF... what two teams are the biggest obstacle to beat in the playoff?... so now we want to go back to having Lebron & George dominating our SF?... At least now we know we can beat these teams.
We need to make sure we're not taking a step back to being average in the paint... take a look at Smith's efficiency as a PF the last couple of years at PF... it's Moose like... he won't be backing down many PFs like he's doing now.
I'm actually open to eventually dealing Moose... but wanting to see more of Smith at SF and possibly getting a 3 & D PF that is not a wuss in the paint... who might this available player be?

[deusXango]

G'morning Wise, up late last night and just read your post about the Anderson trade; allow me to try and explain. First off, you're absolutely correct, I did propose trading Monroe for Anderson, after the Pelicans game; Anderson sucked all night long, until the game got on the line, then he was lights out! Monroe was consistently outstanding all night long; hadn't had a game like that in a month of Sundays!

In my mind a player that can turn it around in the space of a game, as opposed to taking 3-4 games to get back on track, is the player I want on the Pistons; Anderson coming here to play alongside Drummond and Smith seemed like pure genius, and Monroe going home to New Orleans to anchor the middle for Anthony Davis to run wild at PF seemed like an offer they couldn't refuse. Two things happened to make me retreat to the confines of an open mind. #1 Murph (who I respect his views and level-headedness) went at me about Anderson's lack of defense (which Monroe lacks also, but the size difference swung the balance), and #2 Josh Harrellson started playing a more significant role in our rotation. IMHO Harrellson brings a hell of a lot to the table and for the money (which means a great deal to you) he made trading for Anderson unimportant, AND CV & J.J. are not needed on the floor any longer!

Fly has made an observation that a school kid could see; nobody on the whole damn team can shoot, at least they haven't shown they can, if they're here. Look at the expected long range shooters FG %; they all suck. Why else could Cheeks or anyone else see Jennings as the 4th quarter go to guy?! Monroe and Smith are not the only piss-poor shooters from mid-range (Monroe) to beyond the 3 line (Smith), but the team as a whole compensates for their lack of high percentage shooting by fighting for 48 minutes to keep up until someone comes up with the heroics necessary to win. Monroe and Smith may never become all-world as shooters, but their interior play is morphing into a unit that's second to none, and thus far, spacing hasn't been a problem for them. 90 points a night from our frontline? Come on Wise, we never got that type of production from our championship frontlines. Look at what our bench is contributing and what our starting backcourt is putting on the board; points are not as big a problem as defense is, and Cheeks is working on that as we speak.

You don't like Monroe's game and don't want him on the team; that's okay. I get that. Whenever/if ever we part company with Monroe, let it be on the best possible terms; we got lucky with Jennings for Knight, but even Jennings came to us needing work and is still a work in progress. Let's do better with Monroe, because our level of talent is much greater than what it's been for years.

[WTF]

I'm all for trading CV and JJ for Afflalo..........but how far into the conversation do you think Joe would get before Orlando's GM bursts into laughter.  Why would Orlando do that?!?!?!

No laughter they'll gladly take CV expiring contract and JJ just to rid themselves of big baby and been shopping Affalo since the beginning of the season. Cap wise it's a win for them to clear AA 3 years remaining and Big Baby 2years that's like 11 million they'll free up.

[FlyDog]

I'm all for trading CV and JJ for Afflalo..........but how far into the conversation do you think Joe would get before Orlando's GM bursts into laughter. Why would Orlando do that?!?!?!

[FlyDog]

I don't think Stuckey is all that great. He is the team's "Finisher", and the team's achilles heal has been finishing. They finally finished one in Boston the other night.......without him. He is the 1 holdover from "The glory years", and it's time to let go. I wish Greg could shoot better, and Josh too.......but that's just not going to happen. I think they should find their shooters in the back court. The Pistons championship teams have always been trendsetters........why try to copy all the other teams now? I think they can make it work with this athletic, non-shooting front court.

If after this season it's apparent that it can't work, then simply use Monroe's money to sign somebody who would be a better fit. I just don't understand what the big hurry is........we ain't getting past Miami or Indiana this year, let alone the Western Conference champ.

[WTF]

Living a couple hours from Miami........Heat fans make me sick.  After Shaq and before Lebron, they were nowhere to be found.  Now........they're everywhere, most of them wearing Lebron James jerseys.  They go to the games to be seen.......it's the cool thing to do.  Let me give you an example.

My wife's sister dropped off her Chihuahua yesterday, so we can dog sit while she goes to Miami tonight to watch the Heat play.  First of all, most women who claim to be Heat fans own a dog that fits in her purse.  Their $600 purse that they probably couldn't actually afford in the 1st place.  Don't ask me why, but it fits the profile.  Lebron jersey?  Check.  I wasn't even aware that she liked basketball until 3 years ago, but now she proudly sports her Lebron jersey.  Because it's cool.

I asked her who they were playing.  She said "I think San Francisco?".  C'mon man.  Get real.  I like this girl, she's an okay in-law.......but geeze she sure is the prototypical fake ass Heat fan.

That's funny but it's fake fans all over the place.

[WTF]

In the few games that I have watched, it has been obvious to me that this team lacks guys who can spread the floor.  Nobody can shoot.  If our SF can't shoot, why is that our PF's fault.  I think Joe needs to go back to the antiquated notion of having SG's and SF's who can shoot.  Since Smith can't, and he's a big part of the team's success, it has to fall on to the SG.  Can KCP be that guy?  Too early to tell.  Let's see what happens.

LOL! Here's why Fly because both Joe and Cheeks both asked Monroe to become more of a Mid-Range Shooter, Monroe also claimed that this is something he worked on all off season. Josh wasn't signed because he was suppose to become the answer to our outside shooting woes, Josh was singed for all the other attributes he brings as a player. The onus was placed on Monroe to improve his out-side shooting.

In the few games you have watch what has every opposing PF been able to do? There is has not been a NBA game I've watch this entire season where other PF weren't able to consistently knock down mid range shots and threaten to knock down 3's.

Fly you can't have it both ways, you can't say that nobody can shoot then at the same time not want to address it by making trades to fix that. Again trading a Charlie and JJ for an Affalo is not something that adversely affect the team and neither does trading Moose and Bynum for Ryan Anderson.

BTW you been consistently wanting to trade the one player that might be having the biggest impact on the team to date.

[FlyDog]

Living a couple hours from Miami........Heat fans make me sick. After Shaq and before Lebron, they were nowhere to be found. Now........they're everywhere, most of them wearing Lebron James jerseys. They go to the games to be seen.......it's the cool thing to do. Let me give you an example.

My wife's sister dropped off her Chihuahua yesterday, so we can dog sit while she goes to Miami tonight to watch the Heat play. First of all, most women who claim to be Heat fans own a dog that fits in her purse. Their $600 purse that they probably couldn't actually afford in the 1st place. Don't ask me why, but it fits the profile. Lebron jersey? Check. I wasn't even aware that she liked basketball until 3 years ago, but now she proudly sports her Lebron jersey. Because it's cool.

I asked her who they were playing. She said "I think San Francisco?". C'mon man. Get real. I like this girl, she's an okay in-law.......but geeze she sure is the prototypical fake ass Heat fan.

[FlyDog]

In the few games that I have watched, it has been obvious to me that this team lacks guys who can spread the floor. Nobody can shoot. If our SF can't shoot, why is that our PF's fault. I think Joe needs to go back to the antiquated notion of having SG's and SF's who can shoot. Since Smith can't, and he's a big part of the team's success, it has to fall on to the SG. Can KCP be that guy? Too early to tell. Let's see what happens.

[WTF]

This team is FINALLY headed in the right direction, and every single post is about trading somebody.

@Fly, there was a time not so long ago that both you and I would light a fire into Joe for taking this approach of standing pat when there were obvious glaring flaws with this team.  We lite into his ass not just during this recent bad times but during the contending years as well.  

@DX, OMG! wasn't it just last week you were proposing the same Ryan Anderson for Moose trade?   I'm shocked to see that you and Fly have falling into that group of settler's. Really what are you both waiting to see happen? What possibly goes haywire if Moose is traded?  

What I find surprising especially with you DX, is that you've watch more than Fly has and you like many others see where this team is lacking (perimeter scoring and a stretch four).  In theory having Andre, Moose and Smith sounds nice and in fact at times it looked nice, but it's flawed because there are spacing issues, so unless our 3 big can become unstoppable and start putting up a combined 90 points every night it won't work.  As Sparma noted there's a balance issue that needs to be corrected.

The hell with being talked about in quiet rooms when there's real opportunities to scare the **** out of both Indy and Miami with a slight adjustment in the roster.  You were championing Ryan Anderson for what reason?  Beside a close game loss to Portland, an impressive win against Indy and comeback against Boston what has change your mind about trading Moose for Ryan?  Absolutely nothing!

Forget all the obvious reason Joe needs to trade Moose here's one to ponder on. Did you all read Moose's underhanded whining comments about how he's sacrificing his game for the betterment of the team by deferring to Josh being able to exploit the mismatches his has against opposing SF.  Please! Please! Please! because we all know the real reason behind his comments.  He's using this to justify his declining production but this doesn't explain why they were declining prior to Cheeks running plays for Josh in the post.  He has already used Drummond for his declining rebounds totals and now he using Josh as an excuse for his declining point totals.  Ponder this as well if he could hit his FTs and make a mid-range shoot his numbers might have increased oppose to decreasing.  

The whole concept of these three working together and spacing not being an issue was always depended upon Moose's effectiveness as a mid range shooter.  Well it's not happening and Cheeks recognized it and did what he needed to do and that was to start running plays for Josh because he couldn't the spacing needed for the three to work.  

If you all can't see that Moose is a funking under-achiever who's selfish and lazy and he's killing the team chemistry I don't know what to you. It just bam so in everyone face but you all blinded by the notion that it will fix itself by itself.

[deusXango]

This team is FINALLY headed in the right direction, and every single post is about trading somebody.

Fly, I'm as baffled as anyone on this current craze to make a trade when it wasn't that long ago we were so pitiful as a team. Things have changed. I threw out some trade scenarios, but nothing that I got fanatical about, like some are to tear up the team that's showing signs of life. When we were outright sucking, there was a cry across this board to "wait until the trade deadline," now it's "do it now!"

Why is it that Monroe is pitted against Smith? Some want to trade Monroe, and there are others who are just as passionate to trade Smith; no one seems to want to give them the credit that's due for co-existing and working well around young Drummond, while both are learning new positions! Monroe is not racking up those numbers with smoke & mirrors, and Smith's athleticism, and b-ball I.Q. can't be denied; as a fan that have high hopes for this team, I'm willing to let this season play out with our frontline intact. It's dumb to let Stuckey and/or Singler go at this time, for obvious reasons, and CV is our money in the bank; he's this years Cory Maggette, and the money he's been paid to do next to nothing, is better used to resign Monroe! Monroe and Harrellson need to be resigned this summer. Both these players will be sooo much better in the next 2-3 years, when Drummond will have emerged as the class center of the league, and the chemistry will be mystical. Smith's contract will be coming to an end, and it's no telling what Mitchell will have turned into by then (if we keep him), or we go looking for that alpha SF then. Our backcourt is set with Jennings and KCP; the bench is unsettled right now, but down the road, things may change.

Wise, with all due respect, we've been in the conversation with Indy and the Heat since we kicked their asses in their house! It's been in whispered conversation, because the body of work is so small, but we are worth being more than just noticed in the weak ass east.

[FlyDog]

This team is FINALLY headed in the right direction, and every single post is about trading somebody.

[WTF]

Charlie V and JJ to Orlando for AA and Big Baby 2014 pick, and  2014, Moose and Bynum to NO for Ryan Anderson.  New starting lineup is now Jennings, Affalo, Smith, Anderson and Drummond, and bench become Stuckey, KCP, Singler, Davis and Harellson.  IMO all 3 teams have a win win in this trade.   Orlando gets cap relief and rid themselves of Big Baby,  NO gets Monroe, and we just corrected our spacing and balance issue with the addition of Anderson and Affalo without gutting the team and more importantly Joe doesn't have to go into the off season worrying about resigning Moose or resigning Stuckey because everyone AA, Anderson and Big Baby all have at least 2 years remaining on the current contracts which would be likely cheaper than than what we would have to pay to keep Moose and Stuckey. In fact this put us right in the conversation with Indy and Miami this season.

[Phil-Good]

I have to say I'm very impressed with Cheeks. For A few reasons. 1st. He uses his entire team. Jones, Stuckey, Sevia, Harrson, even Charlie V, wack azz.

2nd. Guys seem to respect him. Even when things don't go that specific players way. The only player that I feel is not playing up to his potential is Greg Monroe. Every other player on this team is doing more or over what I expected.

Greg seems to have taken A step back. I don't know what's going on with Greg but in the end, this might be good for the Pistons. Greg might be losing himself big time money. But in todays NBA with owners like Brooklyn, NY Knicks and LA Lakers, players will always be over paid.

[Sparma]

A Mike Payne proposal over at DBB where his article on trade's drawn over 1000 responses.

The Pistons would never do that. Not so easy to come up with trades that both teams would likely go for.

btw, he's pretty much against a Monroe trade.

[Sparma]

Oracle says: "There are always cases where the offer is too good to turn down...."

I agree with that, but my overall view on trades goes beyond that: given the roster imbalances, the team should seriously investigate and be receptive to trades that would adddress that problem, while being on guard against being taken advantage of.  

Naturally that means looking for offers that are "too good to turn down...."  But it also means being receptive to merely good trades or even to equal trades if the structural problems are being addressed.

Beyond that, (going beyond what I said earlier), maybe even a slight decline in talent or youth would be acceptable, if the roster payoff is big enough.  I revised my thinking because of the examples of Dantley for Aquirre and Stackhouse for Rip that were given.  I remember really disliking the Stackhouse trade at first, but it turned out to be a brilliant move.

For instance, last year a deal centered on Monroe and Aldridge was batted around (can't see Portland going for that now).  The discrepancy in age was brought up; at this point, I'd gladly accept that kind of trade to get the right pieces around Drummond, our core of cores.  Probably not a great example, because at this point Aldridge seems like quite a bit better player.   Rondo's the other one who comes to mind where you'd be giving up a lot in age (and size) to get the roster straightened out.  That's not such a great example either, just because I don't think highly enough of Rondo to give up on an accomplished young center (I'd take a Jennings (&...?) for Rondo though).   I guess even if you're willing to take a bit of a step back in talent or age, as I am, it's tough to come up with an attractive and realistic deal involving Monroe.

[WTF]

@Wise - Yeah he scored 30, but in the previous game he scored 3! Still, I'm a true believer because talent finds a way to compete!

@Sparma & @Phillip - There are always cases where the offer is too good to turn down, witness the Jennings for Knight trade! So I'm not discounting doing anything no matter what gets presented, that would be crazy.

Stuckey could be moved even late in the season as some contender may be looking for some insurance and punch off the bench. However, I am sensitive to the fact that we could lose him, but again, I invoke the "A trade you can't refuse rule"!

So I guess what I'm advocating is that we do nothing unless the return is very high, because we do have something to lose!

It may be a blessing if Stuckey is out for awhile as it would allow us to see if the team can adapt to playing without him. If so, that would mean losing him won't be the body blow it appears to be right now!

Kind of already proven that him being out adversely effect the team. Yes we pulled it off but I know I was looking for those 15 pts when we were down 42-23. We've already seen his impact in wins and what we lose offensively and defensively when he's out in a few loses. The thing that was scaring me the most yesterday was seeing Bostons guards jacking up shots over Bynum, and a struggling Billups trying to keep up with them. Thank God Jennings channeled his inter-Iverson yesterday.

[WTF]

There's a bigger diamond to be had so don't get all sentimental over this start up diamond that have you all star stricken and dazed and confused.   Diamonds don't grow on their own and Joe needs to go to Jared's

I know everyone cringes at the thought of trading Moose, but there's a number of reason he should be traded and taking a wait and see approach only makes it worse.  

1. The team has already begun to mesh and the only piece that's not meshing is Moose.  I've only said this like a thousand times already but his inability to hit a mid-range shot even half consistently is hurting this team. You all see it, just that you all just don't want to admit it and somehow think it will magically correct itself.  

2. Do you really want Joe/Gores to sign Moose to a Max Deal next season knowing his flaws and limitation are the same as this season (Poor Defense, No Mid Range and a Limited Post Game)

3. All the numbers indicate we can win without him they're a better team offensively and defensively with just Drummond and JSmooove in the lineup.  Now really dig deep into your hearts on this because many of you have already wondered it and asked yourselves the question Can Harrellson replace or be just as effective Moose.  IMO Harrellson could he's already a better more active defender, he has range, plays the passing lanes very well, passes the ball extremely well, doesn't make all the TO's and doesn't hesitate to shoot and very decisive with his decision making.

4 If you're really looking a the team then you'll notice that nothing about Monroe's game has improve or will likely improve, look at Jennings improving! look at Josh improving!, look at Andre improving!, look at KCP improving!, look at Stuckey improving!  look at Singler improving! look at Harrellson surprisingly improving! Now look at our top 8 and ask who's not improving! (Moose) and can we win games without him?  

Look at trading Moose this way, it's like trading Kelly for Adrian,  Adrian for Mark, or Stackhouse for Rip. Each one of this trades were all about fit and none of them put the team on a decline afterwards.

[Oracle]

@Wise - Yeah he scored 30, but in the previous game he scored 3! Still, I'm a true believer because talent finds a way to compete!

@Sparma & @Phillip - There are always cases where the offer is too good to turn down, witness the Jennings for Knight trade! So I'm not discounting doing anything no matter what gets presented, that would be crazy.

Stuckey could be moved even late in the season as some contender may be looking for some insurance and punch off the bench. However, I am sensitive to the fact that we could lose him, but again, I invoke the "A trade you can't refuse rule"!

So I guess what I'm advocating is that we do nothing unless the return is very high, because we do have something to lose!

It may be a blessing if Stuckey is out for awhile as it would allow us to see if the team can adapt to playing without him. If so, that would mean losing him won't be the body blow it appears to be right now!

[WTF]

Hey Wise, I see your guy had a nice game for the Jazz last night.  I may have been wrong about him........he's pretty good for a little feller.

He'll be an All Star before you know it. I didn't want to bring up the 30 he drop the other night because I'm still bummed that Joe passed on him.

[Sparma]

Good post on Cheeks, Oracle, what he set out to do, and how well he's done so far. I have doubts about Cheeks in the long run, but he's off to a good start.

I do disagree with you about trades, because I think there are structural issues that need to be addressed at the roster level.  There are no easy solutions though, because I suspect a bunch of teams are on the prowl to trade for Monroe on the cheap, which wouldn't help us.

I would have done some things differently than Dumars in the past (still don't like giving up a 1st with Gordon, wish he'd have drafted a PG this year, to say nothing of the crummy use of the 20 mil he freed up in the Billups trade), but given the present situation and business/ ownership realities, it's tough to see what to do.  

That said, if I had complete roster control, I'd work hard to trade Stuckey while he's at his peak and has an expiring contract, probably along with CV, for an able wing/ shooter.  In addition, I'd look into trading Monroe, but only if I could make a good trade, or at least an even one which would balance the roster.  I'm very much a Monroe fan, but he needs to be in the right situation to function optimally.

I'm worried that if we leave the roster as is, we'll be having a very similar conversation next year, allowing for some improvement via maturation (AD tweaking his FTs, Monroe developing a bit more range, Smith being more consistently going to the basket, Jennings being more of an orchestrator down the stretch, KCP and Mitchell developing (?)).  That's a lot of possible gradual improvement, but we're also likely to lose Stuckey over the summer as well as have Monroe signed at the cost that will limit flexibility greatly.  Also, we're unlikely to get much external help apart from the 2nd round discussed by Murph (and I do hope for another good 2nd round pick by Dumars).

My plan involves accepting the probability that we won't go very far in the playoffs, so it's totally unrealistic in the face of the go for broke this year attitude manifested by Gores and Dumars.   Doesn't mean it's not the more sensible approach though.

[Phil-Good]

If you see the Iron is hot then go for it right here, right now!

If A good trade opportunity opens up go for it right away!! Stuckey is playing well, so get rid of his azz right now!

[Oracle]

Not only don't I want to trade Moose yet(and Don is right, he STUNK last night), I don't want to trade anybody except Charlie V!

I'm taking my clue from Mo Cheeks, who I admit I wasn't that high on originally, but I'm loving him now!

Have you noticed how he plays deep into his bench? The way he's using JJ in limited minutes, and with great success, is fantastic! This is a coach gathering information and finding out who works in what matchups, and I love it!

Cheeks mission was clear... get in the ear of a reluctant unproductive player in Stuckey and turn him around, get in the ear of your two big FA's, Smith & Jennings and get them to produce, and keep your big dogs fed in Monroe & Drummond... Mission Accomplished!

Even at this level, we seriously have a shot at being a top 4 team in the east!!!

The bottom line is that Cheeks needs a lot more time to hone this team into a lean mean fighting machine!

Prediction/Hope: By the end of the season, the last team you'll want to see as your playoff opponent is the Detroit Pistons!

We've got a Monster brewing here, but not if we start breaking them up prematurely!

[FlyDog]

Hey Wise, I see your guy had a nice game for the Jazz last night. I may have been wrong about him........he's pretty good for a little feller.

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