BTW...

[Oracle]

I came home to watch this on NBATV, and I'm kind of mad I did, but for those missing it, they'll probably re-air it later!

[WTF]

Following the game online, I see SI posted that Andre Drummond made a lay up shot from 8 feet out. That wouldn't be possible for mere mortals!

Wise, it looks like maybe you should have rested on your laurels with your amazing Miami prediction.

I thought I felt this game being a win, Must have been the chili dogs I ate.

[WTF]

I came home to watch this on NBATV, and I'm kind of mad I did, but for those missing it, they'll probably re-air it later!

Look like it's not worth watching. I'm following it on ESPN

[merc]

One of the sloppiest games of the year for both teams... the difference was **** FT shooting by the Pistons.

[merc]

Gotta call it like it is... Bynum is 2X better PG than Knight... Knight looks like he's afraid to screw up... so he does.
The same iso plays over and over... it's no secret why there are so many t.o.s... everyone knows excatly what's going to happen.
Moose needs to recognize double teams quicker... he turns it over than most PGs.
Drummond looked a step slow today.

[Oracle]

One of the sloppiest games of the year for both teams... the difference was **** FT shooting by the Pistons.

The complete disappearance of Brandon Knight under the big lights, and the shrinking of Greg Monroe!

The big time players were Bynum, Singler & Drummond, with Prince getting an assist!

Pathetic performance by Knight, and Monroe was only slightly better!

[Sparma]

Watched a bit of the game, so I'm not going to make comprehensive comments. Be forewarned! And yes, I do return to the Knight issue which has occupied me/ us recently.

Wise, what did you eat before that Miami game? You should patent it.

Watched a bit of Bynum, and he put up nice numbers.

Interesting to hear commentators talk about how far Stuckey's fallen short of Joe's high expectations.

Looks like Drummond held his own (in spite of his */-, which can be a misleading stat.

I liked Isiah's comment about running more (with the young guys), which would be music to Knight's ears.

Now to Knight, ever the center of controversy. Clearly he had an off game, which can happen to anyone. In a way, I think we could have a more fruitful discussion about Knight the last game, when both his strengths and limitations were on display. Still, it's amazing to me that 5 teammates surpassed him in assists (with others tying his one), a game after 6 teammates surpassed his single assist (with others tying him). I mentioned in the last game I noticed what I thought of as an extraordinary stat when it was a one point game (61-60 as I recall). Then he goes out and nearly equals that extraordinary feat in the next game, granted in far fewer minutes. Or maybe I should say that the team nearly replicates the amazing ratios when comparing the starting PG to others? That strikes me as really, really unusual. I'd love to know in what % of consecutive games the starting PG's been surpassed in assists by at least 5 teammates (and equalled by others). I don't have the resources to try to track that info down. I'd love to be shown a single instance of a 2 game stretch in which it happened.

As I've said, there's a very real team strength that's paired with that anamoly: the Pistons have a bunch of solid (Stuckey, Bynum) or plus passers (Monroe, Prince) in comparison to standard expectations at various positions. As mentioned, as coach, I'd try to get Knight more help (more time with Drummond, CV). That said, might Frank be trying to make lemonade out of lemons in relying so heavily on others to do the distributing, allowing Knight to do his thing (again, with occasional understandable off performances)?

[Oracle]

Watched a bit of the game, so I'm not going to make comprehensive comments. Be forewarned! And yes, I do return to the Knight issue which has occupied me/ us recently.

Wise, what did you eat before that Miami game? You should patent it.

Watched a bit of Bynum, and he put up nice numbers.

Interesting to hear commentators talk about how far Stuckey's fallen short of Joe's high expectations.

Looks like Drummond held his own (in spite of his */-, which can be a misleading stat.

I liked Isiah's comment about running more (with the young guys), which would be music to Knight's ears.

Now to Knight, ever the center of controversy. Clearly he had an off game, which can happen to anyone. In a way, I think we could have a more fruitful discussion about Knight the last game, when both his strengths and limitations were on display. Still, it's amazing to me that 5 teammates surpassed him in assists (with others tying his one), a game after 6 teammates surpassed his single assist (with others tying him). I mentioned in the last game I noticed what I thought of as an extraordinary stat when it was a one point game (61-60 as I recall). Then he goes out and nearly equals that extraordinary feat in the next game, granted in far fewer minutes. Or maybe I should say that the team nearly replicates the amazing ratios when comparing the starting PG to others? That strikes me as really, really unusual. I'd love to know in what % of consecutive games the starting PG's been surpassed in assists by at least 5 teammates (and equalled by others). I don't have the resources to try to track that info down. I'd love to be shown a single instance of a 2 game stretch in which it happened.

As I've said, there's a very real team strength that's paired with that anamoly: the Pistons have a bunch of solid (Stuckey, Bynum) or plus passers (Monroe, Prince) in comparison to standard expectations at various positions. As mentioned, as coach, I'd try to get Knight more help (more time with Drummond, CV). That said, might Frank be trying to make lemonade out of lemons in relying so heavily on others to do the distributing, allowing Knight to do his thing (again, with occasional understandable off performances)?

Excellent analysis, and I agree with the Knight focus!

The Knight issue really needs resolving because the position he plays can either make us better or a lot worse!

I like that others are getting the assists, but their assists are like chinese food, it doesn't last!

If the PG isn't getting the assists over any prolonged period of time, the engine of the offense isn't working properly, or you need to move to another primary distributor.

This is not to give up on Knight, but in the context of the offensive system Frank wants to run, Knight is the LAST PG you want running it!

Actually Bynum would be a lot better starting except for the people we have starting!

I'm really a tough love proponent, and I really think Knight would benefit from being sat down, much like you sit QB's and allow them to watch and learn for when their time comes.

[deusXango]

Why don't we stop trying to make sh!t work with what Joe's given us, and start demanding better in both players and rotations? We're getting uncomfortably close, to what amounts to a career, waiting on Rodney Stuckey to be this all-star talent, and it's apparent, it ain't happening. There are fans who still view him as an intregal part of what we're trying to build but, to them it's blasphemy to talk about trading his ass.

Brandon Knight is not a PG, and it's a waste of time waiting for him to learn the position! Why not trade for a traditional pass first PG, who can shoot and play defense, and give them a half season chance to run the team? Yes, I'm talking up Scott Machado again. With an inconsistent PG who averages less than 6 assists a game, we'll continue to be the laughing stock of the NBA...this is based in great part on Joe Dumars reputation as this wonderful GM.

When are we going to stop playing players out of position? When did that become fashionable to begin with? I've noticed that "small ball" has lost it's magic, and that's a good thing IMHO!! When we don't see English, Middleton, and Kravtsov being played, why're we trusting Lil' Larry's opinion that these players can't play or contribute? Is there a frontcourt in the NBA slower and less athletic than Monroe, Maxiell, and Prince? Where do they stack up in rebounding, shot blocking, steals, and intimidation? Okay, take intimidation out and look at the measurables.

Lil' Larry is coaching our team...Lil' Larry!!!! Who's not working overtime to get their mind around that one? If that's the very best we can do, at anytime, for any reason, we've fallen further than I'm willing to imagine. I'm not for Isiah Thomas coaching this team, not with his administrative experience; Thomas for GM, and allow Laimbeer to coach this team. The Palace is the house that the "Bad Boys" built, maybe it's time for the "Bad Boys" to rebuild the team that plays in the house.

[Grizz2]

Watched a bit of the game, so I'm not going to make comprehensive comments. Be forewarned! And yes, I do return to the Knight issue which has occupied me/ us recently.

Wise, what did you eat before that Miami game? You should patent it.

Watched a bit of Bynum, and he put up nice numbers.

Interesting to hear commentators talk about how far Stuckey's fallen short of Joe's high expectations.

Looks like Drummond held his own (in spite of his */-, which can be a misleading stat.

I liked Isiah's comment about running more (with the young guys), which would be music to Knight's ears.

Now to Knight, ever the center of controversy. Clearly he had an off game, which can happen to anyone. In a way, I think we could have a more fruitful discussion about Knight the last game, when both his strengths and limitations were on display. Still, it's amazing to me that 5 teammates surpassed him in assists (with others tying his one), a game after 6 teammates surpassed his single assist (with others tying him). I mentioned in the last game I noticed what I thought of as an extraordinary stat when it was a one point game (61-60 as I recall). Then he goes out and nearly equals that extraordinary feat in the next game, granted in far fewer minutes. Or maybe I should say that the team nearly replicates the amazing ratios when comparing the starting PG to others? That strikes me as really, really unusual. I'd love to know in what % of consecutive games the starting PG's been surpassed in assists by at least 5 teammates (and equalled by others). I don't have the resources to try to track that info down. I'd love to be shown a single instance of a 2 game stretch in which it happened.

As I've said, there's a very real team strength that's paired with that anamoly: the Pistons have a bunch of solid (Stuckey, Bynum) or plus passers (Monroe, Prince) in comparison to standard expectations at various positions. As mentioned, as coach, I'd try to get Knight more help (more time with Drummond, CV). That said, might Frank be trying to make lemonade out of lemons in relying so heavily on others to do the distributing, allowing Knight to do his thing (again, with occasional understandable off performances)?

Excellent analysis, and I agree with the Knight focus!

The Knight issue really needs resolving because the position he plays can either make us better or a lot worse!

I like that others are getting the assists, but their assists are like chinese food, it doesn't last!

If the PG isn't getting the assists over any prolonged period of time, the engine of the offense isn't working properly, or you need to move to another primary distributor.

This is not to give up on Knight, but in the context of the offensive system Frank wants to run, Knight is the LAST PG you want running it!

Actually Bynum would be a lot better starting except for the people we have starting!

I'm really a tough love proponent, and I really think Knight would benefit from being sat down, much like you sit QB's and allow them to watch and learn for when their time comes.

Do you even see Knight trying to penetrate and set up others for assists? If not, why not? I dont see that happening except rarely .. I see him doing what Stuckey did for 3 seasons for us .. Take on the role of superstar and shoot and drive as if he were the next Poison AI ..

When I see Knight trying to penetrate and trying to make a pass .. and failing game after game .. I will give up on him .. So far all I see is BK7 shooting and driving and getting double teamed ... This is on Frank (and Dumars)... period .. SO fire his butt and bring in someone who can at least get him to do what needs to be done to become a PG ..

Why would we bench Knight when most of the time he is one of the best Piston players on the court in terms of scoring and defense and effort? He's a young player being told to play like AI .. take over the game and become the superstar we supposively need ... and have little doubt Joe Dumars is behind this ..

In the meantime .. since Frank cannot coach a young blank slate with talent and hops into a PG ... .. Make Bynum the starting PG and slide Knight to SG .. and see how that works ..

Face it .. if a head coach can keep putting Max out there as PF game after game with FAR more failure at his position than Knight is at his .. especially for a vet .. and especially where a wonderful young player like Drummond waiting in the wings ... excelling in limited minutes as a BIG ... then something is not tick tocking right in Frank's basketball mind ...

[Grizz2]

... was at the London game watching the Pistons get deconstructed by the Knicks ...

[Only admins are allowed to see this image]

[Grizz2]

.... and not completely in this case ... so from Pistonspowered comments .. and I swear I didnt know it was one of our own members from days long ago .. I think you know who it is without my mentioning .. Sorry for not seeking the author's permission but a great post ..

what is happening to monroe is simple.
even the knicks announcers could see it, as early as the first quarter.
the pistons’ spacing is horrible and when the team has its typical starting unit in the game – and even when stuckey is playing with them – they just do not space the floor well and it allows the defense to collapse on monroe.
this is a direct result of the offensive scheme that frank relies on with the starters.
the best offense that the team has played all year has been the second unit’s play of a couple of weeks ago.
the bench, at that time, was spreading the floor, letting bynum operate in the middle, with drummond as the clean up man. their spacing was excellent, with daye and CV and singler on the perimeter ready to shoot wide open 3′s.
the starters, on the other hand, are executing an offense that ends up having everyone except for singler, and occasionally knight, jamming the lane or mid-range zones.
the team needs a point guard like trey burke, a guy who can make good decisions, shoot the 3 and not kill you with turnovers.
bynum plays that way sometimes, but often he goes on his mental walkabouts where his sinister twin takes over his body.
yes, a great wing scorer would be nice, but, imho, the team has enough shooters now, and a good distributor, and a good scheme would free up those guys.
the best starting unit would be one with drummond and monroe and then 3 guys who will space the floor and shoot 3′s.
tay can shoot the 3 but he’d much rather muck around in the mid range.
max only plays in the lane.
knight’s game is so unfocused, you never know what the heck he is going to do, or where he is going on the floor.
there are still lots of things frank could do to clear up the offense, but he has cobbled together a starting unit because of seniority and politics and not because it fits and works well together. because of that nonsense, and frank’s refusal to buck it, the team will never put its best starting unit on the floor.

[Sparma]

Thanks Oracle. Interesting idea to have Bynum start. On one level, he's not the guy I'd want starting because he's presumably on his way out. Stuckey'd be the more likely call to return as starter. At the same time, I think it'd be real interesting to see how Bynum did if he were handed the starting job and told he needed to pass more. I think he could do it; not sure if he would.

Grizz, you make good points about the importance of coaching and PGs and young players. At the same time, Frank (of whom I'm not a fan) can't win for losing. In NJ, Kidd was so stellar that Frank received little or no credit for aiding his PG. Now that his PG's struggling as distributor you're saying it's mostly or all Frank's doing, because of the (undeniable) systematic component of being a good PG.

I think a demotion of Knight to the second unit would be a friendly gesture, in that he'd be playing more with Drummond, CV, even Daye. That's probably the simplest and most direct way to help Knight elevate his game as distributor (as long as it doesn't keep AD from getting more minutes).

btw, watched more of the game. Loved a play by Bynum in which he drove the lane nicely, lightly putting up a teardrop shot, which bounced off the rim to Drummond, who slammed it home, impressing the NY announcers. Bynum has the best connection with AD, but Knight would benefit from playing more with him as well.

[Grizz2]

Thanks Oracle. Interesting idea to have Bynum start. On one level, he's not the guy I'd want starting because he's presumably on his way out. Stuckey'd be the more likely call to return as starter. At the same time, I think it'd be real interesting to see how Bynum did if he were handed the starting job and told he needed to pass more. I think he could do it; not sure if he would.

Grizz, you make good points about the importance of coaching and PGs and young players. At the same time, Frank (of whom I'm not a fan) can't win for losing. In NJ, Kidd was so stellar that Frank received little or no credit for aiding his PG. Now that his PG's struggling as distributor you're saying it's mostly or all Frank's doing, because of the (undeniable) systematic component of being a good PG.

I think a demotion of Knight to the second unit would be a friendly gesture, in that he'd be playing more with Drummond, CV, even Daye. That's probably the simplest and most direct way to help Knight elevate his game as distributor (as long as it doesn't keep AD from getting more minutes).

btw, watched more of the game. Loved a play by Bynum in which he drove the lane nicely, lightly putting up a teardrop shot, which bounced off the rim to Drummond, who slammed it home, impressing the NY announcers. Bynum has the best connection with AD, but Knight would benefit from playing more with him as well.

Sparma .. Start Bynum at PG .. he is playing the best .. That is what should happen next .. Still would rather have Drummond starting .. .. Knight has shown he can shoot the best of all our present SG options .. So ... play him at SG from the bench or as a starter ... He is ready to play PG as Knight is not .. I still think Frank is mishandling Knight in how he is developing .. Or you can conlude he will never be able to play PG .. fair enough ..

[Sparma]

I have a size worry in shifting Knight to SG, which is partly why I push him as 6th man. Maybe Bynum and BK backed by Drummond could work (but then why not just do that on the second unit?). BK at SG next to Stuckey would work as far as size, but I don't see much chemistry there.

[merc]

... was at the London game watching the Pistons get deconstructed by the Knicks ...

[Only admins are allowed to see this image]

Hey Grizz... how was the experience?
I was wondering why Laim was there... maybe a legends thing.. Gores was there (didn't see Joe).
Zeke doing analysis and Laim talking with Gores... nice lil twist.

[Oracle]

I have a size worry in shifting Knight to SG, which is partly why I push him as 6th man. Maybe Bynum and BK backed by Drummond could work (but then why not just do that on the second unit?). BK at SG next to Stuckey would work as far as size, but I don't see much chemistry there.

The combination of Stuckey & Knight worked so well last season that we all thought Knight was ready to take control... we were wrong!

It sould work again, but, IMO, for Knight's sake, getting moved to the bench and having to EARN his way back would be better for his overall development!

Stucky ar SG & Bynum with the starters would be interesting, however, if you keep Maxiell in there, we again get into spacing problems!

The ideal starting unit is really Drummond, Monroe, Bynum, and some floor spacers! The floor spacers shold be our BEST shooters, and that means Daye, CV, or Singler.

However, we may have additional shooters, but the rust on their arses if ridiculous(English and Middleton). As a matter of fact, we've never even vetted them for suitability.

Then again, futzing with lineups, as Merc has said, is probably just a fools errand! A lot of the equation can, and probably will change once Joe makes some move(s).

[Oracle]

First, I do agree with you, I just don't see how we can get Frank to do anything different.

Secondly, that was a good find in the comments, I totally agree with his analysis.

BTW, who was that, you said he was from the old forum?

[Oracle]

Watch what you say online!

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

[Sparma]

Prediction/ speculation: I think Joe gets one more season, max, to muck around. He's got to show some results, pronto.

I think many of us were disheartened by the reports that sounded like Prince was about unmoveable. But I got a different picture from Prince's own comments -- it sounded like he liked assurances that Joe wasn't pushing to trade him, that Joe would tell him where things stood (concerning trade offers), and that he understood the business of basketball.

Drafting Burke to make things click and using money freed to trade for an overpriced but still good player (ike Rudy Gay?)s the kind of move forward that Joe needs to stay on the job. He needs to be bold now, can't play the buddy system (Prince, Maxiell) any more.

The end is nigh, Joe, unless you act. I respect Joe's past enough to still hope we can avoid a Gore-y ending.

[deusXango]

Grizz, I appeal to your open minded sense of reality; Stuckey needs to be traded A.S.A.P. and BK7 should be relagated to the bench...that's where "combo guards" are effective, not as starters. Even though he's untried there, I believe Knight is the guard best suited to come off the bench; if we start bringing him off the bench now instead of waiting 3-4 more years we'll be ahead of the game. We need to purge our entire backcourt in favor of bringing our starting unit into a productive unit on both ends of the floor...barring a trade to bring a new PG on board, start Bynum and English. BK7 and Khris Middleton is a very interesting duo in the backcourt, ala the "Pit Bulls" of 2004. Singler backs up Prince, plain and simple, no favoritism.

The point for all these adjustments is to spread the floor, for both units, and allow as many of our investments to mature along practical lines. If Lil' Larry is no more than another puppet on Dumars strings (as been suggested a lot lately), then Joe should tell him to adjust his lineup thus:
PG-Bynum/BK7
SG-English/Middleton
SF-Prince/Singler
PF-Monroe/CV
C- Drummond/Kravtsov
Joe's ass need to be trying to make up for that knuckleheaded move he made in trading Gordon; we need draft choices in the worst way because of the value in the days to come when making trades for top level talent...remember the CAP and the new luxury tax penalties kicking in this year. Stuckey and Jerebko are worth their weight in gold as trades for picks...Daye, Maxiell, and Maggette are going to fall off our payroll...if I re-signed anyone it would be Bynum, because he'd be the cheapest and bring the most. Please pick this apart with your fine mind, not that tea party, snutty, thoughtless rejection that has become popular lately. I respect your opinion.

[FlyDog]

He's being diplomatic!

What's he supposed to say?

The Palace is empty because we suck? No, he made up a dumb arse excuse, but the real deal is that it's a dumb question... there's your dummy!

He wasn't answering a question. He's an idiot. You've seen him play, right? Dumb as a doorknob.

[FlyDog]

Well that was embarrassing. I'd trade anybody not named Drummond or Bynum. Yes......Bynum. We're that bad. What a mish-mash clown ball roster we have. Wow.

[deusXango]

I have a size worry in shifting Knight to SG, which is partly why I push him as 6th man. Maybe Bynum and BK backed by Drummond could work (but then why not just do that on the second unit?). BK at SG next to Stuckey would work as far as size, but I don't see much chemistry there.

Then again, futzing with lineups, as Merc has said, is probably just a fools errand! A lot of the equation can, and probably will change once Joe makes some move(s).

Oracle, I think what Merc was implying, that making lineup changes just for the sake of change would be foolish but, with purpose it'd be productive. I'm in total agreement with Sparma, about moving BK7 to 6th man, a move that's not foolish but, practical. I just don't agree with keeping Stuckey in the mix any longer than neccessary.

Prince is smart enough to spot up in his sweet spot for jumpers...that's all the floor spreading we need, along with Monroe's 15 footers. Bynum and English can't be worse (even with the rust) than BK7 and Singler. I value your opinion as well.

[FlyDog]

Prediction/ speculation: I think Joe gets one more season, max, to muck around. He's got to show some results, pronto.

I think many of us were disheartened by the reports that sounded like Prince was about unmoveable. But I got a different picture from Prince's own comments -- it sounded like he liked assurances that Joe wasn't pushing to trade him, that Joe would tell him where things stood (concerning trade offers), and that he understood the business of basketball.

Drafting Burke to make things click and using money freed to trade for an overpriced but still good player (ike Rudy Gay?)s the kind of move forward that Joe needs to stay on the job. He needs to be bold now, can't play the buddy system (Prince, Maxiell) any more.
I think "Winning" isn't high on Gore's agenda list. And that's one long list.

We're in trouble.
The end is nigh, Joe, unless you act. I respect Joe's past enough to still hope we can avoid a Gore-y ending.

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