Stuckey

[WTF]

After watching this last game, I didn't miss Stuckey. I don't like the way he plays the game. Stuckey could really help another team right now but how much better does he made the Detroit Pistons? Detroit is 3 years away from making serious impact in the NBA and winning a playoff series. Stuckey is a great athlete but how much better off would the team be if somehow Dumars could obtain a really smart guard or a quality young big man to team up with Drummond and Monroe if the RUSSIAN is not NBA material? I think this team plays just about the same with or without Stuckey and I do not see him getting much better.

Yeah but right now Stuckey is the better of our guards and it was obvious they missed him last Knight. In all honestly I would be open to trading everyone but Drummond. As long as it makes us better

How can you like the way Knight plays? He shooting to much, consistently turning the ball over and rarely plays like a point.

[Oracle]

[cool breeze]

After watching this last game, I didn't miss Stuckey. I don't like the way he plays the game. Stuckey could really help another team right now but how much better does he made the Detroit Pistons? Detroit is 3 years away from making serious impact in the NBA and winning a playoff series. Stuckey is a great athlete but how much better off would the team be if somehow Dumars could obtain a really smart guard or a quality young big man to team up with Drummond and Monroe if the RUSSIAN is not NBA material? I think this team plays just about the same with or without Stuckey and I do not see him getting much better.

Yeah but right now Stuckey is the better of our guards and it was obvious they missed him last Knight. In all honestly I would be open to trading everyone but Drummond. As long as it makes us better

How can you like the way Knight plays? He shooting to much, consistently turning the ball over and rarely plays like a point.

Wisefan I love the fact that Knight is fearless and he plays all out all of the time. It is only a matter of time before Knight becomes a prime time player. RIght now Knight has to shoot the ball. He tried to be a facilitator when the season started and his teammates couldn't score enough points. I actually think Knight shoots the ball at the right time about 90% of the time. As Prince stated recently, this team is better than last year's team but it is a learning process regarding how to play well as a team at the end of ball games. One big problem is playing Maxiell during crunch time. Once Drummond gets more experience, I think the guards and small forward will look much better in crunch time. Again, please realize that Knight is what 19 or 20 years old playing against Chris Paul and a really good team last night. It was Knight who never gave up and pushed to the limit just like Isiah Thomas did when he was learning how to win. We need one more really quick player who can function well in crunch time. And I do not believe that Stuckey is the answer but I wish he would surprise me. The Problem is that Stuckey is not a 20 year old. He has been around for awhile. Another problem is Monroe. Monroe is not real quick but he has some great skills. Again, Monroe is only 22 years old. Few big men can play as well as Monroe at that age. I would rather the Pistons keep these young players than bring in some middle aged vet. Why not plan to win it all three years from now rather than win a few meaningless games. And so many fans are now bailing on Singler. God this guy has not even played all the teams once yet. This is his first season. He shows great promise. All I want to see is those guys playing as well as Middleton, English and THe RUssian. It is nice to watch our Pistons win a game but I would rather see them lose but play really hard than watch Maxiell, Maggette and Charlie V score 20 points each. We should have kept Amir Johnson. We should have kept Affalo. I recall so many posters wanting to get rid of Affalo and it was me and a handfull of others who said, wait this guy is a keeper. He is the best guard defender on the team and he is a team orientated player. We all see everytime the Pistons play against Affalo how he completely shuts down Stuckey. Knowing that, I feel that any playoff team could shut down Stuckey when the game is meaningful. There will come a time because of the way Knight plays, that nobody will be able to stop him. Please hang on and give these young players some time to grow.

[Sparma]

@Don. Knight wins the Chris Paul match up in two years?! Goodness, it's that kind of overestimation that I'd love to find in an opposing GM if I were the Pistons GM. Sure it could happen, partly because Paul could become hobbled by injury. But three major differences: 1) Knight's dribble is extremely vulnerable to a quick guard like Paul, whereas Paul's isn't, 2) Paul sees the court far better and far more quickly than does Knight, and, consequently, 3) Paul's elevating the games of one super athletic but limited players like Jordan; Knight's made no one better and if anything has stunted the development of his fellow fledglings. Does the passage of time and willingness to work wipe out such differences in two years (or ten)? I don't see the evidence.

@Oracle. What would the Pistons gain by switching Knight and Stuckey? Two things: 1) they'd get Knight where he ultimately belongs (in my estimation), giving that crucial player the opportunity to display his strengths while his limitations would affect the frontline players less, 2) if Stuckey's newfound willingness to pass carries over the first unit, that would help the development of the youngsters, including Monroe (at least more than Knight is).

And yes, I'd be quite willing to trade Stuckey because, as mentioned, I think we need to try to emulate the Dallas Jason Kidd -- Terry pairing, combining a genuine distributor with either Stuckey or Knight rather than having ball hogs three deep at point.

Quite an interesting piece at Pistonpowered in which Dan Feldman cites Zach Lowe of Grantland at length. The title captures the essence of what I see as a crucial conundrum: "Greg Monroe- Andre Drummond pairing crushes Pistons offense, boosts Detroit's defense".

[Grizz2]

@Don. Knight wins the Chris Paul match up in two years?! Goodness, it's that kind of overestimation that I'd love to find in an opposing GM if I were the Pistons GM. Sure it could happen, partly because Paul could become hobbled by injury. But three major differences: 1) Knight's dribble is extremely vulnerable to a quick guard like Paul, whereas Paul's isn't, 2) Paul sees the court far better and far more quickly than does Knight, and, consequently, 3) Paul's elevating the games of one super athletic but limited players like Jordan; Knight's made no one better and if anything has stunted the development of his fellow fledglings. Does the passage of time and willingness to work wipe out such differences in two years (or ten)? I don't see the evidence.

@Oracle. What would the Pistons gain by switching Knight and Stuckey? Two things: 1) they'd get Knight where he ultimately belongs (in my estimation), giving that crucial player the opportunity to display his strengths while his limitations would affect the frontline players less, 2) if Stuckey's newfound willingness to pass carries over the first unit, that would help the development of the youngsters, including Monroe (at least more than Knight is).

And yes, I'd be quite willing to trade Stuckey because, as mentioned, I think we need to try to emulate the Dallas Jason Kidd -- Terry pairing, combining a genuine distributor with either Stuckey or Knight rather than having ball hogs three deep at point.

Quite an interesting piece at Pistonpowered in which Dan Feldman cites Zach Lowe of Grantland at length. The title captures the essence of what I see as a crucial conundrum: "Greg Monroe- Andre Drummond pairing crushes Pistons offense, boosts Detroit's defense".

Sparma .. please watch the Detroit Pistons play ... then you will see the double teams and no one guarding JMAX most of the time .. This is another reason why Monroe is having a tougher season .. They are double teaming him too ... Sure Knight makes unforced errors at times too .. but he is always around the ball and fighting hard .. He makes this team better even at the age of 20 ... Good player and wants to improve .. and dont forget Frank is a half-ass coach at offense, who until recently was really into ISOs for some god forsaken reason .. The PG is an extension of the head coach .. Considering everything .. Knight is doing great IMO ..

[deusXango]

After watching this last game, I didn't miss Stuckey. I don't like the way he plays the game. Stuckey could really help another team right now but how much better does he made the Detroit Pistons? Detroit is 3 years away from making serious impact in the NBA and winning a playoff series. Stuckey is a great athlete but how much better off would the team be if somehow Dumars could obtain a really smart guard or a quality young big man to team up with Drummond and Monroe if the RUSSIAN is not NBA material? I think this team plays just about the same with or without Stuckey and I do not see him getting much better.

Don, last nights game was a case of "water seeking it's own level;" we ain't that good (the way the team is being played), and the Clips ain't that bad. I'm Stuckey's biggest critic but, now that he's being played off the bench, as a backup PG, he's growing into the potential fans have talked about for years; because it's as a role player, and not a starter, shouldn't deminish his value at all. He really adds to the power of the team, such as it is. He also deserves to play out his contract here as long as he continues to develop. I think instead of running a three guard rotation, Stuckey needs to be paired up with a developing SG that balances his skill set, hence my suggestion of Middleton (6' 7", outside shooter, who can finish at the rim),as the backup SG. Stuckey and Middleton could be a formitable duo, once they developed chemistry together, and if they do it's no need to trade Stuckey. That 2nd unit needs a leader also.

"RUSSIAN" better be NBA material!!! Drummond needs a backup at center, and it ain't the "Moose." It's only 11 games into his 2nd season so, I'm for cutting Knight some slack...he's just a kid...like Drummond, only starting. In the final analysis, this team is better that it's been allowed to show.

[Grizz2]

After watching this last game, I didn't miss Stuckey. I don't like the way he plays the game. Stuckey could really help another team right now but how much better does he made the Detroit Pistons? Detroit is 3 years away from making serious impact in the NBA and winning a playoff series. Stuckey is a great athlete but how much better off would the team be if somehow Dumars could obtain a really smart guard or a quality young big man to team up with Drummond and Monroe if the RUSSIAN is not NBA material? I think this team plays just about the same with or without Stuckey and I do not see him getting much better.

Yeah but right now Stuckey is the better of our guards and it was obvious they missed him last Knight. In all honestly I would be open to trading everyone but Drummond. As long as it makes us better

How can you like the way Knight plays? He shooting to much, consistently turning the ball over and rarely plays like a point.

Wisefan I love the fact that Knight is fearless and he plays all out all of the time. It is only a matter of time before Knight becomes a prime time player. RIght now Knight has to shoot the ball. He tried to be a facilitator when the season started and his teammates couldn't score enough points. I actually think Knight shoots the ball at the right time about 90% of the time. As Prince stated recently, this team is better than last year's team but it is a learning process regarding how to play well as a team at the end of ball games. One big problem is playing Maxiell during crunch time. Once Drummond gets more experience, I think the guards and small forward will look much better in crunch time. Again, please realize that Knight is what 19 or 20 years old playing against Chris Paul and a really good team last night. It was Knight who never gave up and pushed to the limit just like Isiah Thomas did when he was learning how to win. We need one more really quick player who can function well in crunch time. And I do not believe that Stuckey is the answer but I wish he would surprise me. The Problem is that Stuckey is not a 20 year old. He has been around for awhile. Another problem is Monroe. Monroe is not real quick but he has some great skills. Again, Monroe is only 22 years old. Few big men can play as well as Monroe at that age. I would rather the Pistons keep these young players than bring in some middle aged vet. Why not plan to win it all three years from now rather than win a few meaningless games. And so many fans are now bailing on Singler. God this guy has not even played all the teams once yet. This is his first season. He shows great promise. All I want to see is those guys playing as well as Middleton, English and THe RUssian. It is nice to watch our Pistons win a game but I would rather see them lose but play really hard than watch Maxiell, Maggette and Charlie V score 20 points each. We should have kept Amir Johnson. We should have kept Affalo. I recall so many posters wanting to get rid of Affalo and it was me and a handfull of others who said, wait this guy is a keeper. He is the best guard defender on the team and he is a team orientated player. We all see everytime the Pistons play against Affalo how he completely shuts down Stuckey. Knowing that, I feel that any playoff team could shut down Stuckey when the game is meaningful. There will come a time because of the way Knight plays, that nobody will be able to stop him. Please hang on and give these young players some time to grow.

Great Post Don .. Thank you .. Strong agreement ... Young players playing under a head coach whose less than smart decisions make them seem worse than they are.. For the Nets, Frank never had to develop much in the way of real offensive plays because he had Jason Kidd .. We have a great core and they are working hard ... Singler, Monroe, Drummond and Knight .. and English looks like a keeper if they ever stop giving his time to proven duds like Daye and Magette ..

[WTF]

1. Lead (By Stellar Example)
2. Direct (RunThe Offense)
3. Facilatate (Assisting Players In Scoring) Pass The Ball
4. Nurture (Improve Players Around Him)
5. Smart (Making Great Decisions) Not Turning Over The Ball

Don, I hear you talk about all the virtues of Knight being a Hard worker, Fearless, and so on, but I never hear you mention any of the above. While being fearless and a hard worker has some merit and are excellent attributes because this is what you want from all your players they're simply not the essential elements of being a elite PG.

There's hope for Knight because Chauncey use to be a Hard Worker and Fearless before LB turned him into an Elite PG. I recall LB saying after a game I think were Chauncey had like 10 ponts on 4 FG attempts but had double digit assist, no turnovers and ran LB offense flawlessly and LB called it the greatest game his PG has played.

Personally I don't give a damn how many points he scores, how hard he works, or how fearless he looks doing it, I just want his ass to run the offense and not turn the freaking ball over 5 damn times. LB would have buried Knight ass deep in the dog house for the way he played last night.

[WTF]

It is not a matter of time before he (Knight) figures it out. At best he'll end up as another combo guard that jacks up shots and that won't change until he runs into a coach like Pop, LB and Avery who won't allow his ass to jack threes all game long while turning the freaking ball over.

Until we get a pure pass first PG or another freaking Zeke both Drummond, Monroe and any other big we get their development will suffer especially on the offenesive end.

Lindsay Hunter was fearless and a hard worker, and theres a ton more who care that tag. When Knight gets all 5 virtues of being an Elite PG then I would be all over that band-wagon

[Oracle]

"Don, last nights game was a case of "water seeking it's own level;" we ain't that good (the way the team is being played), and the Clips ain't that bad. I'm Stuckey's biggest critic but, now that he's being played off the bench, as a backup PG, he's growing into the potential fans have talked about for years; because it's as a role player, and not a starter, shouldn't deminish his value at all. He really adds to the power of the team, such as it is. He also deserves to play out his contract here as long as he continues to develop. I think instead of running a three guard rotation, Stuckey needs to be paired up with a developing SG that balances his skill set, hence my suggestion of Middleton (6' 7", outside shooter, who can finish at the rim),as the backup SG. Stuckey and Middleton could be a formitable duo, once they developed chemistry together, and if they do it's no need to trade Stuckey. That 2nd unit needs a leader also." ~ DX

Very good post, and your thoughts on Middelton is something I would like to see! Look, if we're going to figure this out, we can't keep playing the same old players that we know aren't the future. I'm not saying today or tomorrow, but in the not too distant future, it's time to put in the work of building a team that can develop the chemistry needed to win!

"Sparma .. please watch the Detroit Pistons play ... then you will see the double teams and no one guarding JMAX most of the time .. This is another reason why Monroe is having a tougher season .. They are double teaming him too ... Sure Knight makes unforced errors at times too .. but he is always around the ball and fighting hard .. He makes this team better even at the age of 20 ... Good player and wants to improve .. and dont forget Frank is a half-ass coach at offense, who until recently was really into ISOs for some god forsaken reason .. The PG is an extension of the head coach .. Considering everything .. Knight is doing great IMO" ~ Grizz

Grizz, while I think Sparma is watching, you make excellent points. The biggest difference in Monroe this year from last year is that he is routinely doubled! They effectively hide the double at times with a help defender coming over at the last minute, but he never faced this before(price of publicity). We also have to admit that Greg has NOT adjusted in the least to this change in coverage, and he needs some coaching in that area, and some long hours in the film room!

"@Oracle. What would the Pistons gain by switching Knight and Stuckey? Two things: 1) they'd get Knight where he ultimately belongs (in my estimation), giving that crucial player the opportunity to display his strengths while his limitations would affect the frontline players less, 2) if Stuckey's newfound willingness to pass carries over the first unit, that would help the development of the youngsters, including Monroe (at least more than Knight is).

And yes, I'd be quite willing to trade Stuckey because, as mentioned, I think we need to try to emulate the Dallas Jason Kidd -- Terry pairing, combining a genuine distributor with either Stuckey or Knight rather than having ball hogs three deep at point." ~ Sparma

Sparma, while I don't agree with you final positioning of Knight, all of the advantages of moving Stuckey to starting PG are mostly true, but they're also short term benefits. I know you don't see it, but Knight has a winners quality and will to win. We need to give him more time to develop before any decisions need to be made.

BTW, I wouldn't trade Stuckey unless we had an offer we couldn't refuse. He's playing great where he's at, and makes that 2nd unit very potent. He still charges a bit more than I like, but it is getting better.

[WTF]

As a rookie Zeke dominated games, Knight doesn't do that. As a rookie Zeke not alone he had Kelly dominated the games, Zeke made the players around him better. As a rookie Zeke didn't turn it over 5 time a game, As a rookie Zeke was a FREAKING ALL STAR!!!!!!!!

Don I don't know where you get this idea that Zeke somehow was this rookie that fumble around the court lost. Zeke was a Superstar the day he enter the league for Christ Sakes!!!!

[Oracle]

In Zeke's rookie season, he averaged 4.2 turns per game! Ok, he also averaged 7.8 assists, but we're talking about a NBA great!

I wouldn't be too concerned about the turns, it's probably the easiest thing to correct.

Zeke's scoring was highest until the team got really good, and then his scoring went down for the rest of his career. I expect Knight to follow a similar path, because on a bad team, you have to score more.

BTW, the stats are here - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

[WTF]

In Zeke's rookie season, he averaged 4.2 turns per game! Ok, he also averaged 7.8 assists, but we're talking about a NBA great!

I wouldn't be too concerned about the turns, it's probably the easiest thing to correct.

Zeke's scoring was highest until the team got really good, and then his scoring went down for the rest of his career. I expect Knight to follow a similar path, because on a bad team, you have to score more.

BTW, the stats are here - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Yes but it's insane for Don to keep mentioning them in the breath. I not saying Knight won't get better but he does show any indication that he will.

[Oracle]

Joe Dumars on Brandon Knight - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Frank needs to take a lesson from Carlisle, and play a deeper lineup? Can he do it? - [Only admins are allowed to see this link]

[Sparma]

Wise: a touching message about love, and about the significance of this community which we've got going, earlier in response to the sickening events in Connecticut.

More mundanely: great post on points.

Grizz writes: "He makes this team better even at the age of 20 ..."

First, I am watching the games the season, Grizz, likely to my detriment (was out of town over the weekend though).

Secondly, I agree that Knight makes the team better. He does so by being a good shooter and a dynamic penetrator to the basket. He's a terrific talent and already a good NBA talent. BUT (my earlier point was) he makes no individual Piston teammate better. I challenge you to give an example of him helping a teammate get better. That's not to say we can't point to some good passes, but he does not improve his teammates beyond what a standard replacement point would. By contrast, Chris Paul receives praise for doing just that. To take a page out of Don's book, before the game PP quoted LA writers praising Paul for just that quality. It's unfair to compare Knight with Paul (although Don invited the comparison by saying that Knight would win the match in two years). But Knight makes no individual player better. If anything, he makes other players worse. Even ballhog Stuckey arguably made Monroe better last year in making him his prime target (as stats demonstrate); even Uberselfish Bynum seems to have a special connection going with Drummond.

Thirdly, I agree in part with your point about Maxiell. If he doesn't look like a threat to score defenders will give him space and help elsewhere. BUT a good point turns a situation like that on its head. Defenders are playing Maxiell and Singler soft? A good point hits them time and again for the open shots that both are quite capable of hitting. Result? Space opens for Monroe, for Prince, and for Knight himself. Yesterday, the Detroit announcers sounded quizzical about something that looked faintly like a trap against Paul. Why is that tactic so ineffectual against Paul as to be unrecognizable? Because he's a smart, generous, player who punishes that strategy. A good point capitalizes on choices made by the defense; Knight doesn't, instead developing one basic theme, even when the defense is lowering its probability of success.

Knight's a valuable player who does make the team (but not individuals) better. So was Jason Terry. Use him in a role where he can strive, rather than (once again) expecting a young player to play beyond his skills and to learn skills that are acquired at the NBA level on rare, rare, occasions. Doesn't mean Knight can't develop in a Stephen Curry style player rather than a Jason Terry style player but the odds are very much against him, in spite of his laudable qualities of intelligence and hard work. An astute organization is realistic in their assessments of the strengths and weaknesses, potential and limitations, of its players and acts accordingly.

[Oracle]

I think you expect WAY too much for a guard basically in his rookie year!

A guard on a team with questionalbe teammates, not so much talent wise, but a team with no chemistry consistency, and questionable coaching.

Even if that wasn't true, you'd be complaining about almost any gard that entered the NBA in their FIRST year(Knight's shortened season ~ 3/4 season).

It's fair to point out areas of improvement, but that's not what's going on here. Not only you, but others are making career level assessements, and history proves conclusively that you can't do that with any accuracy.

The complaints about Knight have been leveled a many a successful PG in the NBA, the list is too long to repeat.

It's too early... just saying!

[deusXango]

"The Captain" came to town with an overnight bag, and Kelly "I bet you can score more than I can" Tripucka, to play on a team that honestly earned the 2nd pick in the draft, and immediately went to work, challenging the best in the NBA, winning their respect with his fierce competitiveness. On nights the Pistons lost (in the beginning there was a lot of them), the Silverdome was rocking with excitement because of the play of this man. He had played a flawless game in the NCAA championship game (NO turnovers), and was slated to be the 1st player taken in the draft; he won my heart when he stepped to the podium in Dallas, removed the 10 gallon hat they had given him, placed it on the podium and said, "I don't want to be no cowboy." That forced the Mavericks hand to pass on him, and not only did he come to Motown but, he embraced the city like it was his own. He promised us a championship, and delivered!!! I'm on the same page with Wise....Isiah Lord Thomas was the greatest Piston there was...period!

[Sparma]

That's a fair point about the difficulty of projecting. Concerning baseball, Bill James has conducted extensive studies showing playing decently at a superyoung age is an important variable in predicting stardom. Knight has that in his favor.

Still, it doesn't seem hard to say that Singler (an old rook!) makes Knight better with his running, creating space, and solid shooting. And young rook Drummond's helped individual defenders with his cover defense (likely allowing them to defend a bit differently, as the Wallaces did) -- Singler got beaten but Drummond had his back with a block. And both are aware, I think, of the effect that they're having on teammates. Knight seems pretty oblivious about how his play affects teammates, as did Stuckey.

A pet peeve of mine concerns underestimating the difficulty of acquiring (traditional) guard skills. Very few have gone from being poor passing guards to being good passing guards once they entered the NBA. Steph Curry, for instance, put on a scoring display in the NCAA tournament; but he was already hitting teammates with quick, creative, timely passes. I admire Karl Monroe for having gone from a poor to a (pretty) good free throw shooter. Improving that one, narrow, skill so much is already rare; acquiring the full range of skills of the traditional PG (eg Andre Miller) is really rare. There's a better chance of Knight becoming a poor man's Russell Westbrook than the next Chris Paul. He's on a nice trajectory. I'm old school enough to value a traditional point guard highly and to be skeptical about acquiring those skills at a high level in the NBA. Maybe it's a case of Ericsson's 10,000 hours of dedicated practice. Even within a sport, it's not easy at all to acquire neighboring skills.

[Oracle]

I hear you, and there are signs in Knight that I don't like, but it's hard to write him off for me.

Some people are complaining that Knight can't shut down opposing guards, and he does struggle on defense at times.

Hell Michael Jordan was dinged about his defense, and he eventually stepped up after many years of being average.

My point is that you can't learn everything in one year... that's why it's called development!

Chauncey got traded like a red headed step child, but got his shot here! At that point in his career he was a SG playing PG, and had honed some NBA skills.

It also requires additional influences, and Chauncey's interaction with a great coach added the final dimension to his game!

It's a long journey, and you can short cut it by trading for someone else that another team has put the work into to develop, or stick with your own.

We're most likely going to have a combination of both, but we really do need to let this development process play out a bit more before we know which way to jump!

[Oracle]

"The Captain" came to town with an overnight bag, and Kelly "I bet you can score more than I can" Tripucka, to play on a team that honestly earned the 2nd pick in the draft, and immediately went to work, challenging the best in the NBA, winning their respect with his fierce competitiveness. On nights the Pistons lost (in the beginning there was a lot of them), the Silverdome was rocking with excitement because of the play of this man. He had played a flawless game in the NCAA championship game (NO turnovers), and was slated to be the 1st player taken in the draft; he won my heart when he stepped to the podium in Dallas, removed the 10 gallon hat they had given him, placed it on the podium and said, "I don't want to be no cowboy." That forced the Mavericks hand to pass on him, and not only did he come to Motown but, he embraced the city like it was his own. He promised us a championship, and delivered!!! I'm on the same page with Wise....Isiah Lord Thomas was the greatest Piston there was...period!

That knife cuts both ways!

I totally agree with that statement, but it's just as silly to keep comparing our guys to established(grown men) stars!

[Grizz2]

"The Captain" came to town with an overnight bag, and Kelly "I bet you can score more than I can" Tripucka, to play on a team that honestly earned the 2nd pick in the draft, and immediately went to work, challenging the best in the NBA, winning their respect with his fierce competitiveness. On nights the Pistons lost (in the beginning there was a lot of them), the Silverdome was rocking with excitement because of the play of this man. He had played a flawless game in the NCAA championship game (NO turnovers), and was slated to be the 1st player taken in the draft; he won my heart when he stepped to the podium in Dallas, removed the 10 gallon hat they had given him, placed it on the podium and said, "I don't want to be no cowboy." That forced the Mavericks hand to pass on him, and not only did he come to Motown but, he embraced the city like it was his own. He promised us a championship, and delivered!!! I'm on the same page with Wise....Isiah Lord Thomas was the greatest Piston there was...period!

That knife cuts both ways!

I totally agree with that statement, but it's just as silly to keep comparing our guys to established(grown men) stars!

... I will be happy if Knight is an All Star 2 or 3 times ..

[deusXango]

"The Captain" came to town with an overnight bag, and Kelly "I bet you can score more than I can" Tripucka, to play on a team that honestly earned the 2nd pick in the draft, and immediately went to work, challenging the best in the NBA, winning their respect with his fierce competitiveness. On nights the Pistons lost (in the beginning there was a lot of them), the Silverdome was rocking with excitement because of the play of this man. He had played a flawless game in the NCAA championship game (NO turnovers), and was slated to be the 1st player taken in the draft; he won my heart when he stepped to the podium in Dallas, removed the 10 gallon hat they had given him, placed it on the podium and said, "I don't want to be no cowboy." That forced the Mavericks hand to pass on him, and not only did he come to Motown but, he embraced the city like it was his own. He promised us a championship, and delivered!!! I'm on the same page with Wise....Isiah Lord Thomas was the greatest Piston there was...period!

That knife cuts both ways!

I totally agree with that statement, but it's just as silly to keep comparing our guys to established(grown men) stars!

Oracle, you're absolutely correct, Knight is a developing kid (20 years old), trying to master the most difficult position on the floor, and only has 93 professional games under his belt; we've had some greats, Knight is yet to be great....give him a chance!

[Grizz2]

That's a fair point about the difficulty of projecting. Concerning baseball, Bill James has conducted extensive studies showing playing decently at a superyoung age is an important variable in predicting stardom. Knight has that in his favor.

Still, it doesn't seem hard to say that Singler (an old rook!) makes Knight better with his running, creating space, and solid shooting. And young rook Drummond's helped individual defenders with his cover defense (likely allowing them to defend a bit differently, as the Wallaces did) -- Singler got beaten but Drummond had his back with a block. And both are aware, I think, of the effect that they're having on teammates. Knight seems pretty oblivious about how his play affects teammates, as did Stuckey.

A pet peeve of mine concerns underestimating the difficulty of acquiring (traditional) guard skills. Very few have gone from being poor passing guards to being good passing guards once they entered the NBA. Steph Curry, for instance, put on a scoring display in the NCAA tournament; but he was already hitting teammates with quick, creative, timely passes. I admire Karl Monroe for having gone from a poor to a (pretty) good free throw shooter. Improving that one, narrow, skill so much is already rare; acquiring the full range of skills of the traditional PG (eg Andre Miller) is really rare. There's a better chance of Knight becoming a poor man's Russell Westbrook than the next Chris Paul. He's on a nice trajectory. I'm old school enough to value a traditional point guard highly and to be skeptical about acquiring those skills at a high level in the NBA. Maybe it's a case of Ericsson's 10,000 hours of dedicated practice. Even within a sport, it's not easy at all to acquire neighboring skills.

Sparma .. Do agree with you BK7 is not likely to become CP3 ... around as good as D. WILL maybe is his ceiling probably.... But do you think Drummond could be as good as Bob Lanier? .. I think he has that high of a ceiling .. better defensively and rebounding at least ..

[Sparma]

Grizz, I'm quite a bit more optimistic about Drummond's odds for stardom than Knight's. Lanier. I've mainly read about him, but he seemed like a different kind of player than Drummond. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd see Lanier as more of a stronger, bigger, Monroe, really skilled and maybe a bit slow (certainly later in his career). I once wrote Lanier in the early 80s, having had the kind of knee surgery he had had. He wrote a friendly and compassionate note back. Great guy.

What makes me more optimistic about Drummond is that I think he's already changes games significantly when he comes in. Even without development, he's a difference maker. With some better free throw shooting and more strength, he'll be a whale of a player. His main deficiency, as I see it, is getting caught out of position with some regularity. Positioning is another generalized skill that may not be so easy to acquire. Guys like JaVale McGee and DeAndre Jordan remind me of Drummond and they're not stars (yet). Not sure who his high end exemplar would be. Drummond's the main guy I'd build the franchise around, along with Monroe (if they can co-exist offensively).

I definitely believe in development, Oracle, with defense being a prime case, in spite of my caveat about positioning. Knight's defensive assignment is more straightforward than Drummond's. Yesterday B&K complimented him for staying in front of Paul (although Paul burned him with some distant shooting). Defense strikes me as one of the most straightforward skills to develop, with effort being a key component. Some coaches (Jackson, Popovich) seem to draw it out of guys who have a reputation for softness. Others (Curry, Kuester) emphasize it, but don't get the results.

Finally, a few (outrageous) comments concerning Billups:
1) He's the rare exception, not the norm.
2) Read a long piece about Billups' development. As I remember, in high school he alertly tossed the ball off a guy's back on an inbound, going in for the basket. He may have had pretty developed point instincts early on.
3) Evidently, he really was coming into his own before LB, in Minnesota, but had limited opportunities until the year before Detroit.
4) When he played at the level of an All Star point in Detroit, much of his success derived from non-classical point qualities: distance shooting, great strength fueling drives which often led to FTs, fantastic FT shooting.
5) (Outrageous assessment ahead:) As point, he played in quite a patterned (and predicable) way. His principal skill was being able to find Hamilton at all times. Beyond that, he seemed to check his second and third receivers (Prince and Sheed). He was truly outstanding, a deserving finals MVP. But even at his best, his mechanical, methodical, and extremely effective style was at some remove from the flowing, full court, vision-guided, creativity of Kidd and Nash.

[Oracle]

Sparma, this isn't a knock on you, just an observation.

Your analysis tends to always focus on what a player isn't doing, and projects that to he can't do it. I may be wrong, but that's how it appears to me.

Anyway, on Chauncey, you say he was the rare case, however that conclusion leaves out the most important thing you can consider in the analysis.

It may be that the person that changed him was the rare case, or even more likely, the combination of both the teacher and the student sparking a great connection.

Chauncey showed that he was able to adapt the teachings he had here in Detroit to produce similar results in a different offensive system with radically different players.

Larry Brown taught him principles, not just how to find RIP, and principles are enduring!

BTW, I too believe Drummond is the player to build around, and possibly the key future star. You're right, he's a game changer this early in his rookie season, and that's truly special!

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