Re: FORUM

[Sebastian]

with daye, i've almost gotten to the point where i'm ready to wish him well and send him on his way. for his sake.
but, goddarn it...daye can play. he's got skillz. mad skillz for a guy almost seven foot tall. the pistons coaches should be smart enough to figure out how to use a guy with his physical profile and skillz.
chuck daly...where are you when we need you!
i do not understand how anyone can watch daye, when he plays well, and say that he is not a player you want on your team.
seven footer with 3 point range...can handle the ball...make a nice pass...good rebounder...
instead of figuring out ways to dump a guy like that, i'd be doing everything possible to help him succeed.

frankied, I got to tell you , man, you are mostly right about everything you post, save for your position on the thin man, Austin Daye. The guy is not NBA material. I think that somehow, you may see Kevin Durant-like qualities, because of their similar builds, but the dude is not an NBA player.

Even I have been fooled by his Summer League performances. Man that guy is a Summer League baller, but he is not an NBA player.

It is time to move Darren Daye's son to some other NBA destination. Perhaps, packaging Daye and the draft rights to Kyle Singler to Houston can bring US back Terrance Williams and Hasheem Thabeet.

This would be a deal that could potentially enhance OUR rebuilding process.

Do it Joe: Move Daye and the draft rights to Kyle Singler to Houston for Hasheem Thabeet and Terrance Williams.

Sebastian, I don't understand the facination you have with Hasheem Thabeet, other than his name has a nice ring to it, but we don't need him. I base my statement on your trade proposal; Thabeet and Terrance Williams equals Daye and an untried Kyle Singler. Think about it. "You've got a full can and so do I, let's trade garbage!" We follow up "Trader Jack" with "Wheel Spinning Joe."

deusXango, I'm not necessarily enamored with Hasheem Thabeet, although it is true that OUR boy Mace will have fun with his name. But, Thabeet is a big, young body that could possibly serve US far more than Daye. Thabeet could be a very serviceable back-up Center. And, Terrence Williams is a guy that the Nets gave up on, too quick in my opinion and the Rockets can't seem to find any minutes for the guy. As a Piston, T. Will could be a very good utility as a back-up SG/SF. He's a a good defensive player and an aggressive player, who has handle, too. I actually believe T. Will would be a very good addition to OUR roster. He would be a benefit to Stuckey, potentially improving Stuckey's game, as an intense practice compliment that could force Stuckey to become more aggressive. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Stuckey on the floor with T. Will. Oh, and they are both from Seattle.

Daye is done, here. The guy is weak as hell and has no confidence. Singler ain't all that, but maybe Daryl Morey and McHale can find some use for him, but as it stands now Singler is not doing anything for OUR roster, while playing in Spain.

Yes, Thabeet and T. Will would be additions to OUR rebuilding process. Just my opinion.

[deusXango]

Would someone on this forum with coaching experience please explain to me how can a non-player, in this day and age, be a successful coach? How did you feel when you coached against someone that didn't have the experience of being coached and playing the game? Don't give a "PC" response, get gut level honest please. My dilemma is trying to grasp the concept of transmitting something that you didn't recieve. Is Lil' Larry the second coming of Red Aurbach?

[deusXango]

On the serious side, maybe with some real coaching we find that Daye is a better than servicable player and Singler just might be a better version of J.J. should he decide to come to Detroit. The problem seems to be administrative not player.

Now can I post some more vodka and call girl pics?

Please do Grizz. Contrary to political hype there are some fine, fine Russian women! Good to look at, but don't trust 'em any further than you can throw 'em!

[deusXango]

Sebastian, I think Terrance Williams is a tremendous upgrade over Damian Wilkins, and would be a worthwhile acquisition, but for now I'd let Thabeet be.
If I'm looking at a backup center for a developing contender, I'm looking at JaVale McGee. Yes, backup for a contender!
If we're looking to get a top 2-3 pick this year, I'm rooting for losses, and disapointed with wins.....for real. We can't expect talent to keep dropping into our lap like Monroe and Knight did.
A serious rebuild effort calls for us to acquire at least two more first rounders this year....both in the top 20 range. Prefer one of them be 10-15 range.
With the infusion of 3 top tier rookies I could except losing for another season or two, but only under those conditions.
Lil' Larry has got to start playing Macklin, or "leak" the reason why he's not....please don't lie on the man.
How do we get Gordon out of our rotation as it seems we play better without him?
While Gores and "the team" are GM shopping why not Laimbeer? His lack of popularity as a player was based on respect for his bulldoggedness and getting things done.
If we're apathetic on this forum, how are the fans in the stands?

[cool breeze]

Piston fans keep repeating the same mistake. We start picking appart the coaching staff when things go bad. How about the last game against Washington? Did the coaching staff shoot the basketball or was it the Piston guards? And I am not pointing figures at Brandon Knight. In the last game, where was Ben Gordon? I knew that would happen. Ben played OK in the game previous to Washington. But Gordon seldom can put two solid games together. On all good teams there will be games where most of the players just do not have it. During those situations, it is up to the big money players like Gordon to lead the way and to somehow hold the team together until they come out of the funk. How many times has Kobe done that? I watched Knight pull the team out of the gutter in one game when he got tired of the losing. He will be a keeper. I watched Stuckey play better defense last night but he has no other game but charging into the lane with no plan and hoping for the best. Stuckey is trying to help the team improve but he needs to work on his game to reach his full potential. I believe that Ben Gordon reached his full potential while playing in his last playoff games with Chicago and will never be able to be the kind of player who can lead a team for the rest of his life unless he coaches. Also, by bringing Bynum into the mix really makes this team disfunctional. Walker Russell is so much better for this team than Bynum so management better wake up and admit the mistakes that have been made. The Pistons have functioned better without Gordon and Bynum. We could say the same thing about Charlie V if he were available although Charlie might have a bit more value that Gordon and Bynum. The rest of the playrers had developed a bit of an edge along with some chemistry. During the last game, there was no chemistry. If the Pistons are going to see if Daye can improve before the season ends, they cannot afford to bring Bynum and Gordon into the rotation. Daye brings this team down for sure but adding two more players of his caliber will not improve things for next season.

Everything should be centered on next season. That means getting a high draft pick or two - current young players improving their games - the coaches working with the young players to help them - Dumars eliminating players that do not fit and adding vets who might fit. Go Pistons! Come on Dumars, if players do not fit, do something!

[WTF]

They need to stop wrongly blaming coaching staffs. In the case of Daye he simply doesn't bring anything to the table in brains and effort. That's not Frank fault and contrary to belief pro coaches are limited in what they can teach players who should be getting the fundamentals in college if they keep their asses there long enough.

Overall the team as a whole isn't worth a pot to piss in, they're a bunch of over-paid under-achieving that Joe stupidly offered contracts to. No way has Stuckey played up to the contract he signed and neither Gordon or Charlie lived up to theirs. Sadly the only vet living up to the money they're making is Ben Wallace when comparing stats and effort to others on the team.

Don't get me wrong we had 2 of the dumbest coaches in Curry and Kuester, but Frank is light years ahead of those 2 for some to be making comparisons. Daye can only blame himself, personally I think he's lazy because he may not be able to put on weight but he can build strength and try pattern himself after the likes of marcus camby oppose to the dumb notion he can play SF or SG.

[Oracle]

Piston fans keep repeating the same mistake. We start picking appart the coaching staff when things go bad. How about the last game against Washington? Did the coaching staff shoot the basketball or was it the Piston guards?

Don, maybe you missed the complaint.

No Frank didn't shoot the ball, we all know he doesn't know how, but it's his job to put guards on the floor that CAN shoot the ball, and that's where he failed.

With the Wizard coaching staff quaking in their boots that a smart coach would send in the Wizard Killer(Bynum, and he's done it here and on their court), Frank is MIA(maybe even the singer)!

I'm not saying we would have won, but it might have changed the dynamics earlier. By the horrid late 3rd quarter, it would have taken an act of God to save their sorry butts.

But the point is that Frank, while an upgrade(and getting defensive results), missed that one! So calling him out isn't mindless blaming of the coaching, it's pointing out KNOWN facts!

[frankied]

the coach is the most important factor on a team.
while a great coach won't win a title with a lesser talented team, what you see with lesser talented teams and great coaches is a certain style, an approach that gives that team an identity and at least makes them fairly competitive.
and then once in a while, they compete against a bad team and fans see how that team is supposed to function.
a team that is building a defensive identity will shut an opposing team totally down and fans will get a glimpse of what they might expect, once better players come on board.
a phoenix will score 120 points on a hapless opponent and you'll see how the offense might function when all the pieces are in place.
or to take a current example, NY is now playing the way d'antoni always wants them to play, now that they have a point guard who can run the offense.
what kind of team is frank building?
a team with a sophisticated offense?
hardly. the very idea is a joke.
a defensive juggernaut?
again, a joke. any opponent that plays smart offense can shred detroit instantly. all they have to do is aggressively go to the hole and the game is over. the only teams that detroit can beat are the ones that forget what they are supposed to do: take the ball inside. they spend the entire game shooting jump shots, which is exactly what the pistons want them to do, to mask their basic defensive ineptness. the biggest indictment of frank is that the team has no identity almost halfway through the season. while they may develop that sometime during the course of the season, so far, it hasn't happened.
and when you look back at his NJ career, NJ suffered from the same syndrome.
were they a defensive team that just needed the right personnel?
were they an offensive team that needed an infusion of new offensive talent?
who knew...they never had a real identity. they were just out there playing.
the same thing is happening here.

[deusXango]

Everything should be centered on next season. That means getting a high draft pick or two - current young players improving their games - the coaches working with the young players to help them - Dumars eliminating players that do not fit and adding vets who might fit. Go Pistons! Come on Dumars, if players do not fit, do something!

Don, that's 100! The solution to the Pistons problems summed up clearly in a few short lines. Can we now see how far gone the current adminstration is?

[deusXango]

But the point is that Frank, while an upgrade(and getting defensive results), missed that one! So calling him out isn't mindless blaming of the coaching, it's pointing out KNOWN facts!

I agree Oracle, that even though Lil' Larry is an upgrade over Curry and Kuester it doesn't mean we have a coach that's half-way to being mediocre. Sooner or later we're going to have to upgrade our coaching just like the players that need coaching. Truly you are Ye Oracle!

[deusXango]

Yes, Frankie D., who and what are we? Even in our wins, who or what were we? Successful teams generally take on the personality of their coach ie. Sloan, Riley, Popovich, Collins, "Phillip" etc. How much personality do you find in Lil' Larry? Ambivalence comes to my mind. Can't get started and can't stop at the same time. The Pistons rank near the bottom in defense and offense! That's a shameful identity.

[WTF]

Yes, Frankie D., who and what are we? Even in our wins, who or what were we? Successful teams generally take on the personality of their coach ie. Sloan, Riley, Popovich, Collins, "Phillip" etc. How much personality do you find in Lil' Larry? Ambivalence comes to my mind. Can't get started and can't stop at the same time. The Pistons rank near the bottom in defense and offense! That's a shameful identity.

This isn't his team, not one drafted player, not one traded player and not one FA has his name or signature on it, those coaches built their own team or at least had the a major part in building. Lil' larry was handed Joe's shit to try and coach and their not much difference in the stuff Curry and Kuester had to coach during their short tenures as head coach.

Personally Sloan, Riley, Pop, Collins and Jackson wouldn't yield any better results with this team, but then you wouldn't catch them coach this type crap team either. I won't blast Lil Larry on a few coaching blunders because even the best of them make blunders, but unless Lil' Larry plays the same 5 guys for 48 minutes any decision he makes beyond that can become a blunder with this group of players.

[Oracle]

Personally Sloan, Riley, Pop, Collins and Jackson wouldn't yield any better results with this team, but then you wouldn't catch them coach this type crap team either. I won't blast Lil Larry on a few coaching blunders because even the best of them make blunders, but unless Lil' Larry plays the same 5 guys for 48 minutes any decision he makes beyond that can become a blunder with this group of players.

Wise, I agree that no coach would yeild any better results... maybe we win 2-5 extra games?

But that's not the point! It's not about winning games, it's about developing an identity and developing players.

I think that's the point everyone is making.

While I'm not ready to throw Larry under the bus, in my heart, I believe he's a transitional coach at best.

[deusXango]

Yes, Frankie D., who and what are we? Even in our wins, who or what were we? Successful teams generally take on the personality of their coach ie. Sloan, Riley, Popovich, Collins, "Phillip" etc. How much personality do you find in Lil' Larry? Ambivalence comes to my mind. Can't get started and can't stop at the same time. The Pistons rank near the bottom in defense and offense! That's a shameful identity.

This isn't his team, not one drafted player, not one traded player and not one FA has his name or signature on it, those coaches built their own team or at least had the a major part in building. Lil' larry was handed Joe's shit to try and coach and their not much difference in the stuff Curry and Kuester had to coach during their short tenures as head coach.

Personally Sloan, Riley, Pop, Collins and Jackson wouldn't yield any better results with this team, but then you wouldn't catch them coach this type crap team either. I won't blast Lil Larry on a few coaching blunders because even the best of them make blunders, but unless Lil' Larry plays the same 5 guys for 48 minutes any decision he makes beyond that can become a blunder with this group of players.

True, Wise. On top of all that you've stated Wise, Lil' Larry has got to play the "money players" also, further handicapping his coaching skills. The sad part is that with a totally healthy roster, we've got a real mess under the rules of pay scale over merit.

[frankied]

sebastian,
thanks for the compliment, but i just try to throw lots of stuff up on the wall and hope that some of it sticks.
if i'm right, great, if i'm wrong, i'll try to admit it and move on.
you may be right about it being time for daye to move on. maybe he needs to do so, just to clear his head.
it's clear to me that the entire problem is between his ears now. he plays tentatively, and it shows in the hesitant way he does everything on the court.
he did not play that way last year. while he needed more PT last year, he played with confidence and his shot looked entirely different. it was smooth and effortless. the NJ broadcast team even noted how different his shot looked last year. how now it is erratic, and not so consistently smooth and effortless.
that is clearly a result of not being confident. and i think he's not confident because he is always looking over at his shoulder, expecting the coach to pull him if he misses a shot.
i was just searching the web and came across a video of frank teaching highland park hoopers the pick and roll.
in the video, one of the kids does something wrong and he immediately jokes about the fact that he will sub him out immediately, for doing that wrong act. in that short bit of attempted humor, i think a lot of the problem in his relationship with daye is revealed.
he treats daye like that young baller. earlier in the year he was even worse. now he's not quite as bad. but earlier, if daye was careless or made a mistake or missed a shot, frank would often take a time-out and pull daye.
some guys can probably handle that and continue to have success. most coaches should be able to see that a guy like daye is not that kind of player. and that he was actually killing daye's confidence by treating him that way.
(what made it worse is that he did not treat everyone that way. wilkins, his pet, could put up zeros across the board and get torched, and he'd still see 20 minutes of court time. don't think the guys in the locker room aren't aware of that.)
in other words, he lacked a feel for how to treat his players as individuals.
the best coaches have that feel.
pop, phil jackson, chuck daly, LB....yea, they know x's and o's, but most importantly, they knew how to treat players as people. some guys you kick in the tail, others you put your arm around. how many nba coaches would tell his players that he loved them, as LB did in that famous huddle in the finals?
i wonder if frank truly understands that. he started his career under bobby knight and while i love knight as a college coach, his approach simply does not work in the nba.

[Oracle]

Well, I had no real expectations about Big Ben & Prince. We kind of know what they've got, and we're pretty much getting it.

My biggest disappointment is Stuckey!

When I look at the effort and skill of Monroe in particular, and Knight to a lesser degree(but only because he's a rookie, early in the season), I can't help but see Stuckey in a very bad light.

I'm not sure if it's a lack of talent, basketball brains, or just laziness, but he should be getting Will Bynum money and coming off the bench, IMO.

[frankied]

what the heck...an interesting glimpse at his teaching style...
[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

[frankied]

by the way, the pistons use that play a lot, or so it seems.
not quite sure why they use it so much, as it's success rate is only so so...or so it seems.
i'd rather see them run it from the top of the key, with just the big man as a screener. setting it up so the man with the ball has to throw a pass adds one more place where the defense can blow the play up.
keeping it as simple as possible...with just the ball man and the screener, seems a bit bettter.

[WTF]

Personally Sloan, Riley, Pop, Collins and Jackson wouldn't yield any better results with this team, but then you wouldn't catch them coach this type crap team either. I won't blast Lil Larry on a few coaching blunders because even the best of them make blunders, but unless Lil' Larry plays the same 5 guys for 48 minutes any decision he makes beyond that can become a blunder with this group of players.

Wise, I agree that no coach would yeild any better results... maybe we win 2-5 extra games?

But that's not the point! It's not about winning games, it's about developing an identity and developing players.

I think that's the point everyone is making.

While I'm not ready to throw Larry under the bus, in my heart, I believe he's a transitional coach at best.

This team already had the identity of a piece of shit and that was long before Frank was hired. Same players nothing new or different from 3 seasons ago with the exception of Monroe and Knight and Rip being gone. Other than that it's the same sorry team that have been playing without and identity since CB waas traded. You can hardly fault Frank for not being able to do what 3 coaches before him couldn't do with all the sorry supa sub-par players Joe has either drafted of signed.

Frank is a transitional coach and crazy as it sounds if there's a coach that could coach this team if would be Flip

[Rett]

He has been very busy...and will stop in when he gets the chance.

[deusXango]

Well, I had no real expectations about Big Ben & Prince. We kind of know what they've got, and we're pretty much getting it.

My biggest disappointment is Stuckey!

When I look at the effort and skill of Monroe in particular, and Knight to a lesser degree(but only because he's a rookie, early in the season), I can't help but see Stuckey in a very bad light.

I'm not sure if it's a lack of talent, basketball brains, or just laziness, but he should be getting Will Bynum money and coming off the bench, IMO.

My biggest disappointment is Joe Dumars. If he had gone on and gave Stuckey the $10 million a year like he wanted (some posters too), Stuck-on-E wouldn't be sulking now. We all know he got game this is just another one of his silent protests like not shooting the ball in a game last year.

For all Joe's meddling he has not demanded that Macklin play nor has he sent him down to the D-League. He has not tried to trade for a big to play with Monroe, clearly our franchise player as of now, thus leaving him out on an island all by himself. Maxiell? Pfffft!

Will Bynum money?! That's rich Oracle. One year at the qualifying offer should have been it! The better the teams overall talent becomes, the more Stuckey will fade into the background and that $8.5 million a year contract will be harder to move than Gordons, watch and see.

[frankied]

easy.
the coach...frank.
either he is trying to win now or trying to rebuild and develop his young players.
he's been doing neither.
playing guys like ben wallace and damien wilkins big minutes didn't make sense.
they weren't winning. their young players were not being developed.
slowly he seems to be getting it. wilkins is seeing a lot less court time. wallace has been put into the role he should have always been in...a guy who plays sometimes, maybe not other times, depending on the matchup. but having him be your top frontcourt defender - even if he was the best - was a horrible coaching move.
he still can rescue the season, but i'm not optimistic.
the wins or losses are not important. they are secondary to playing the young players, deciding who's a keeper and who is someone you want to get rid of, and developing an identity for the team.
if this fan sees improvement in those areas, no matter the win/loss record, then frank will cease to be a disappointment.

[FlyDog]

Joe Dumars and Tom Gores are tied for that honor. Dumars for putting this awful team together, and Gores for his pathetic grasping of straws with these awful, washed up Halftime acts. Neither one of them seem to get "It".

[WTF]

easy.
the coach...frank.
either he is trying to win now or trying to rebuild and develop his young players.
he's been doing neither.
playing guys like ben wallace and damien wilkins big minutes didn't make sense.
they weren't winning. their young players were not being developed.
slowly he seems to be getting it. wilkins is seeing a lot less court time. wallace has been put into the role he should have always been in...a guy who plays sometimes, maybe not other times, depending on the matchup. but having him be your top frontcourt defender - even if he was the best - was a horrible coaching move.
he still can rescue the season, but i'm not optimistic.
the wins or losses are not important. they are secondary to playing the young players, deciding who's a keeper and who is someone you want to get rid of, and developing an identity for the team.
if this fan sees improvement in those areas, no matter the win/loss record, then frank will cease to be a disappointment.

Frank has JJ, he has Monroe, and he has Knight which you can't say he hasn't played them all extensively and playing anyone beyond that is a stretch at development. Plus it's not Frank job to rebuild that's Joe's job and it is also Joe's job to supply him with players. Joe resigned Stuckey and Tay, and it's Joe that has BG, Bynum, CV, JMax and Wallace under contract.

frankied you're in this full whine mode because you think Daye should be getting time he hasn't earned and that's not on Frank when the kid simply can't play. I too would prefer Macklin getting time over JMax and Ben but apparantly there's something to that as well.

[Grizz]

George Blaha: "Ben Gordon fires from topside, " (the shot hits the backboard but not the rim ) .." he misses .. "

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