The Block!

[Oracle]

[Oracle]

JL:  With all of his DNPCD's I don't see how Jon can be of any value, even if signed for a sawbuck.  Sitting isn't producing.

SJ:  I'm guessing his trade was as much about having a questionable ceiling as much as the Stones reluctance to offer a mandated extension.

Either way I don't see how bringing back the band at a discount correlates to an improved product. - Exactly

I do support use of statistics in effort to improve an outcome, but where sports analytics is concerned I have on occasion found that the calculation includes numerical factors of opinion.  Do you happen to know how the WS stat is calculated.  

That was my point, saying all analytics/stats are bad isn't realistic, the real question to ask is which ones accurately measure what they claim to measure.

These are tools to measure something, and in the quest to find things we can't readily see, some people come up with analytics that make no sense and claim they measure things they don't. Also, as in the case of +/- stats, they use them without the proper context and they're next to useless. However smart use of analytics can reveal things you may not know about a player, but I would NEVER rely on it for a bottom line conclusion. 

Danny Ferry: NBA Team Considers Hiring GM Who Once Resigned Over ‘Racist Slur’ About Africans

[lemonpen]

Interesting comment by Vince Ellis (at freep), after noting that AD can't negotiate a supermax this offseason, because he didn't make 3rd team All-NBA: "Drummond, who will enter his eighth season, can still negotiate a four-year extension worth more than $160 million.

But a source with firsthand knowledge of the situation indicates there is little appetite for an extension at this juncture, given the Pistons’ salary cap woes."

Little appetite!  But then, that doesn't seem very surprising if you're at all ambivalent about an extension, why would you commit to 160+ mil when the player can become injured the coming season, and when you still can offer more than competitors.  Still, if they really, really wanted it settled....

Concerning the earlier topic of SJ, it's well-documented that I have serious reservations about his game.  Also, it's a lot of water under the bridge here.  Still, he does have real strengths as a defender, mid-range shooter, and passer.

Yes, I'd go for him for a minimum salary (but suspect someone will go higher).  It goes back to my desire to have a deep roster of guys outperforming their contracts, with distinct (even if likely limited) skills, along with a plan to go deep into that roster depending on game situations (like the Patriots).

Another illustration, one that Don likely wouldn't like, would be me favoring resigning Jon Leuer for the minimum salary after this season, if that were possible (seems more likely than the odds with Stanley).  He's clearly got limits: didn't he shoot 38.5% from 3 the season before he arrived, but then hardly ever shoots 3s.  Still, I think he's got skills around the basket (and I know that earlier this season he had a respectable PER), sufficient to outpace a minimum NBA contract. That's another signing that probably wouldn't happen.  I'd be for it though.

Still sorta on the topic of value for pay, in one sense I'm 1000% in agreement with Oracle that Drummond's not the one causing us to lose.  If you picked sides in a recreational league, and the rosters (miraculously!) duplicated the NBA, it couldn't be plausibly argued that AD's the one dragging us down (well, at least before the playoffs).

BUT, there's a second way of looking at things, where even as AD supporter, I'm not sure where I fall.  Drummond accounted for roughly 20% of last year's payroll (and that includes Josh Smith and Ellenson; without them the percentage is higher).  Did Drummond account for 20% of the team's success? (Weirdly, when I total Win Shares, they come to 42.3, rather than the expected 41, maybe because of the trades).  So Drummond at 10 W.S., accounts for 23.6% of our Win Shares.  By that measure, he does outperform his contract, moderately.  At that point some might contest his high WS, and a genuine debate ensues.  Taking Josh out makes things closer, but AD's performance as measure by WS still outpaces his pay as a portion of the team's payroll.

But without including consideration of his pay and the team's payroll, I agree that it should just about be beyond dispute that AD enhances the team's performance.

JL:  With all of his DNPCD's I don't see how Jon can be of any value, even if signed for a sawbuck.  Sitting isn't producing.

SJ:  I'm guessing his trade was as much about having a questionable ceiling as much as the Stones reluctance to offer a mandated extension.

Either way I don't see how bringing back the band at a discount correlates to an improved product.

I do support use of statistics in effort to improve an outcome, but where sports analytics is concerned I have on occasion found that the calculation includes numerical factors of opinion.  Do you happen to know how the WS stat is calculated.

[Sparma]

Interesting comment by Vince Ellis (at freep), after noting that AD can't negotiate a supermax this offseason, because he didn't make 3rd team All-NBA: "Drummond, who will enter his eighth season, can still negotiate a four-year extension worth more than $160 million.

But a source with firsthand knowledge of the situation indicates there is little appetite for an extension at this juncture, given the Pistons’ salary cap woes."

Little appetite! But then, that doesn't seem very surprising if you're at all ambivalent about an extension, why would you commit to 160+ mil when the player can become injured the coming season, and when you still can offer more than competitors. Still, if they really, really wanted it settled....

Concerning the earlier topic of SJ, it's well-documented that I have serious reservations about his game. Also, it's a lot of water under the bridge here. Still, he does have real strengths as a defender, mid-range shooter, and passer.

Yes, I'd go for him for a minimum salary (but suspect someone will go higher). It goes back to my desire to have a deep roster of guys outperforming their contracts, with distinct (even if likely limited) skills, along with a plan to go deep into that roster depending on game situations (like the Patriots).

Another illustration, one that Don likely wouldn't like, would be me favoring resigning Jon Leuer for the minimum salary after this season, if that were possible (seems more likely than the odds with Stanley). He's clearly got limits: didn't he shoot 38.5% from 3 the season before he arrived, but then hardly ever shoots 3s. Still, I think he's got skills around the basket (and I know that earlier this season he had a respectable PER), sufficient to outpace a minimum NBA contract. That's another signing that probably wouldn't happen. I'd be for it though.

Still sorta on the topic of value for pay, in one sense I'm 1000% in agreement with Oracle that Drummond's not the one causing us to lose. If you picked sides in a recreational league, and the rosters (miraculously!) duplicated the NBA, it couldn't be plausibly argued that AD's the one dragging us down (well, at least before the playoffs).

BUT, there's a second way of looking at things, where even as AD supporter, I'm not sure where I fall. Drummond accounted for roughly 20% of last year's payroll (and that includes Josh Smith and Ellenson; without them the percentage is higher). Did Drummond account for 20% of the team's success? (Weirdly, when I total Win Shares, they come to 42.3, rather than the expected 41, maybe because of the trades). So Drummond at 10 W.S., accounts for 23.6% of our Win Shares. By that measure, he does outperform his contract, moderately. At that point some might contest his high WS, and a genuine debate ensues. Taking Josh out makes things closer, but AD's performance as measure by WS still outpaces his pay as a portion of the team's payroll.

But without including consideration of his pay and the team's payroll, I agree that it should just about be beyond dispute that AD enhances the team's performance.

[cool breeze]

Sparma, you're way too nice about this, Stanley makes absolutely no sense here anymore.

I didn't want to move him, it's hard for me to let go of our rookies, but once it happened, it's over. I can't believe anybody would want to revisit all of the issues and drama that comes with Stanley. I think he could find some happiness elsewhere and hopefully some success, although it doesn't look like the Pelicans liked what they saw.

But maybe they offer him a short term deal, who knows. The good news for him is that he's going to be cheap, he's young with very good physical gifts, he just needs to learn how to use them better.

I thought he would blow up somewhere else and we would be sorry, but crickets with the Pelicans, where you might have expected him to at least crack the rotation.

So Oracle you want more of Andre Drummond, Reggie Jackson, Ish Smith, Langston Galloway and perhaps Reggie Bullock but no way would you ever want a player like Stanley Johnson. I think that you missed my point in my previous post though. I never said that I wanted Stanley Johnson back as long as coaches like SVG and Casey are running the show. Casey believes that he cannot win unless he has at least 4 high percentage 3 point shooters. He warned Johnson at the work out facility last summer and told the press what he said to Stanley who was working on his mid range game at the time. Don't do that Stanley. You can only fit in if you shoot the 3 point shot well. Don't bother working on your dribble penetration, setting good screens, or shooting at high percentage inside the 3 point line. That would be like telling Bill Russell to stop what made him famous. Coaches are looking for unselfish role players who can make highly skilled 3 point shooters better. Did you learn nothing from the embarrassing display of basketball our pIstons put on in the playoffs? Wouldn't it have been smarter for the Pistons to miss the playoffs and have even a small shot for a higher draft pick this summer than getting themselves humiliated by the Bucks? Casey created a fake team from training camp throughout the season. Anyone who actually watched the Pistons should have known that if you have small players at three positions who cannot defend anyone in the league, you will have a slim chance of not getting blown out in every game if you back into the playoffs. After Johnson was traded, the interior defense suffered but then when Johnson was in uniform he was often on the bench so Langston Galloway, Smith, Jackson and company could get their required 3 point shots in as Casey commanded. Don't forget, Casey tried like hell to fit Leuer into the rotation. When the loses piled up, he was forced to send Leuer to the bench. Soft is good on defense is a good thing according to the world of D. Casey. According to him, you win by making a ton of 3 point shots even if you don't have players who can shoot that shot well. Casey is not Nick Nurse who has done a fantastic job in Toronto especially in the playoffs. The Pistons beat Toronto in every game in the regular season. So that tells me you cannot judge anything from regular season games. The high end players live for the playoffs. They rest during the regular season and role players work on their skills so they will be ready for the playoffs.

Oracle can't you get it? Stanley Johnson would never agree to ever play for the Pistons if he were given three times what he is worth. SVG and Casey were the worst possible head coaches for him. Meanwhile, Ish Smith, Galloway, Jackson are sitting pretty and call Casey a great players coach. Have fun watching another season of dumb basketball. Johnson should find a home where a coach will appreciate his style of play. I would say that if Draymon Green had been drafted to the Pistons and SVG or Casey had been his first coach, Green would have struggled a lot to fit in. Green has excelled because he has had great coaching and plays on a team where Green's style fits perfectly. With Johnson, the owner invested a ton of money on two players to play a style that featured AD and RJ running the pick and roll with the other 3 players standing on the perimeter waiting to get their turn to shoot 3 point shots. There is more to the game than that but you have to have players with a higher basketball IQ and a coach willing to change his system to have any chance at all.

Oracle I wonder if you actually believe that if Blake Griffen were completely healthy, the Pistons could have come close to winning one game in their playoff series against the Bucks. Notice what Nick Nurse has done to make defensive adjustments that have really turned around this series in the last two games. His players are now playing a different brand of defense. The players Casey selected as his foundation group had no capability to ever make those adjustment. They are in a different league below most playoff players. Casey got what he deserved by being humiliated in the playoffs. He created the fake team and never deviated from the type of players he respected the most.

I have mentioned several players that the Pistons most likely have a chance of signing who are still playing in the the playoffs. I like Jordan Bell who makes very little money yet he is actually really fun to watch even when he just runs the court. He has unusually quick feet for a bigger player, plays with heart, blocks shots, and is a good paint help defender and he anticipates well. Every team he has ever played on has had good team chemistry before arriving in the NBA and having the luck of being coached by Kerr. He is a team first player like Johnson. Would he leave Steve Kerr for 10 times the money and play for Casey? No way that will not happen. What is funny is that Casey isn't looking for players like Bell. Casey will attract the type of players who fit the category of low chemistry creatures. Bring in the gun slingers who thrive on stat talking and pre game rituals. Bill Russell used to throw up before every game he played. He actually was worried that he might make too many mistakes or not be mentally sharp enough to be effective on any given night. So Russell prepared mentally to be ready. He was not using up energy doing the shimmy. Keep studying those stats but where is the stat to identify who the top unselfish team first players might be who help to develop good team chemistry? When will awards be passed out to players who provide great paint help defense? Coaches like Steve Kerr want as many of those players he can get. Who will fit in well with others and provide the role the team needs to win? Meanwhile, many coaches like Casey are looking for the guy who is not afraid to shoot the 3 ball regardless of the situation. That really takes guts in his mind it appears. I wouldn't be so tough on Casey if it were not for being exposed to the nonsense SVG brought to Piston basketball. Casey is just another version of SVG. Why would the owner not agree to try something new? The answer is both SVG and Casey will promote a team that features Andre Drummond as a very important structural pieces. Kerr stated in the post game press conference that Looney is one of his structural pieces. Kerr recognizes he has a guy who is a quick learner who has quick recognition skills that give the team positive results in big moments. Looney has a role and does his job well now after being around Steve Kerr and his assistant coaches building that confidence to the point where Looney was a big key in that last Warrior win.

I am frustrated that the Pistons are still not on the right path after all those seasons with SVG where the Pistons were an embarrassment. Who could wear a Piston hat around town? Who can now? The Pistons play stupid ball. And more is coming next season. That is what is irritating not some of the posters who say that I just don't get it.I do not see any people in charge who are saying the right things. It is as if the Pistons won that first round series against the Bucks. Tom Gores is extremely happy with this year's results.

[Oracle]

Sparma, you're way too nice about this, Stanley makes absolutely no sense here anymore.

I didn't want to move him, it's hard for me to let go of our rookies, but once it happened, it's over. I can't believe anybody would want to revisit all of the issues and drama that comes with Stanley. I think he could find some happiness elsewhere and hopefully some success, although it doesn't look like the Pelicans liked what they saw.

But maybe they offer him a short term deal, who knows. The good news for him is that he's going to be cheap, he's young with very good physical gifts, he just needs to learn how to use them better.

I thought he would blow up somewhere else and we would be sorry, but crickets with the Pelicans, where you might have expected him to at least crack the rotation.

[Sparma]

If Stanley were willing to sign a minimum deal, maybe hoping for a bigger deal the next year, I'd be happy to have him back.

Why? He's an above average defender, which has value. As Don reminds us, he's even been exceptional, going up against Kawhi.

He's got size on the wing, which we sorely lack.

Beyond that (in agreement with Don) he's actually a pretty good middle range shooter. When I checked during the season, he shot better between 3 and 16 feet than did Reggie Bullock.

He's also a decent passer.

Stanley comes with a lot of baggage too. He shoots poorly from distance, and doesn't finish well close in. Weirdly, his shooting from distance has if anything gotten worse since his rookie year (btw, SVG had him shooting corner 3s fairly efficiently that first year). What's worse is that he was hoisting 3s up at an unconscionable rate for us last season.

Resigning at a minimum would allow for a fresh start. He wouldn't want be auditioning for a large contract with us, let alone a role as star.

Instead, if he were willing to sign for the minimum (unlikely, but not impossible), he could quite effectively play 15-20 minutes, mainly as a defensive specialist. If his distance shooting and finishing at the basket improved, you could expand his role and maybe push his contract to a moderate level.

Conversely, at minimum NBA wage, if he proved to be unwilling to curb his unconscionable rate of poor shooting from distance, you'd sit him or cut him.

I'm guessing some team's still willing to take a flier on him next year beyond what makes financial sense to us.

[Oracle]

I thought Okpala was listed at 6'8, which generally means they're about 6'7, but KZ Okpala measured at 6-foot-9 with a 7-foot-2 wingspan at the combine, which means the kid was still growing.

More about him, both good and bad here: 2019 NBA Draft: Stuck on KZ Okpala

Is Seth Curry the answer? He's certainly one answer, and at 6'2, he's an improvement over Ish, but costly.

A taste below, full article here: Is Seth Curry the answer for the Detroit Pistons?

The Pistons biggest weakness in the season and playoffs had been their three-point shooting. They took a lot of threes. And they missed a lot of threes. This was due to incapability from the players to hit their shots.

The Pistons struggled to cash in on wide open three-point attempts during the season and playoffs. In fact other than Reggie Jackson, Luke Kennard, and Wayne Ellington for less than half a season, no other Pistons player found a rhythm on wide open threes.

Langston Galloway struggled to hit his wide open threes. He shot 34.7 percent and continued his woes during the playoffs. Reggie Bullock was the Pistons best three-point shooter before being traded away to the Los Angeles Lakers. But he even struggled on wide open threes; shooting under 40 percent on his attempts.

Reggie Jackson was by far the most consistent shooter on wide open threes. He shot 44.9 percent on 3.3 attempts per night. A lot of this was due to Blake Griffin passing out of the post to the open shooter.

Having Seth Curry on the roster could do the same. Seth shot 51.4 percent on wide open threes! The Portland Trail Blazers did not have a low post guy that could really collapse the defense. His shot attempts could go up with the Pistons with Blake Griffin collapsing the defense.

Gag me with a spoon... Howard becomes Michigan coach: Report: Juwan Howard to become Michigan coach

[Oracle]

You are wrong Oracle. How many more years will it take for you to throw in the towel relating to AD(Don, if you READ my posts, I don't have a towel to throw on any player, I'm in it for the TEAM! If you care about the team, you make the BEST of what you have and make moves when, and ONLY when they make sense. Otherwise, you'll be complaining and whining forever)? Steve Kerr would not want AD on his team. The Warriors play fast. AD jogs or shuffles his feet from baseline to baseline. How about Greg Monroe? Could he play for Golden State(Hell no, Greg gets winded just passing the ball)? If you say yes then you haven't watched the style the Warriors play. You have to be a quick thinker. Screens made by Kerr's players, even the 11th man are set properly and the timing is beautiful to watch. AD still cannot set a good screen. He cannot box out. He cannot anticipate what is going on most of the time on defense. AD would be confused. Kerr would not play AD because he has compiled rebound stats. You have to fit into at team that has great team chemistry. The team is not going to try to fit AD's strengths which is only size. This is silly to even talk about this subject if you have actually watched AD in action(What's silly is that you have no conception of how a player would play in a different offense and with superstar players, or did you miss the class where you learn that great players make others around them better... sheesh).

As for Casey's history as a coach compared to Kerr, are you serious? Casey has a horrible history as a playoff coach. That is when your true colors show Oracle(Again, you can't understand why coaches win most of the time. If Casey had Kawhi, he'd likely do better than Nurse, who lucked out and got his team with a great player added to it. To blame Casey on his players choking is beyond dumb. But what makes this stupid is that it's coming from the guy that says it's a players league and that players determine the outcome. Can you at least try to be consistent with your own views?). You have to make adjustments. Casey has been outwitted every year he coaches at Toronto when his team entered the playoffs. Casey is a regular season type coach. Kerr is a coach who never gives up on the players he is given by management. He might take players out of his rotation for a period of time but Kerr doesn't have a dog house like Casey and SVG. He has been a player on many teams that have been successful. I think Kerr has 5 rings. Kerr is a genius relating to all facets of basketball. There is no coach like him. He inspires rather than taking out steam after going on a losing streak on low paid fringe players. Instead, Kerr nurtures and tries to infect his players with confidence. The highest paid players on the warriors love the way Kerr coaches. They all buy in and make the bench players as important as they are to the overall team. And it paid off this year in the playoffs. They had been dealing with injuries all season long and this team remained confident and never lost the importance of playing unselfishly as a bonded team. Three starters were out. Nobody predicted the Warriors would go far and expected Houston to win that first playoff series. But players all stepped up and created a buzz saw for the opposition. But Kerr selects his role players wisely. He loves Jerebco and Jordan Bell who might have defects but he notices that they have a high basketball IQ and work their butts off. They don't have to drain 3 point shots to get playing time. In Casey's world, defense doesn't matter. Only 3 point shooting matters. AD has to be featured as well or he will be pissed off and walk back on defense. The Pistons and Golden State are the direct opposites and their coaches are completely different. Kerr can adjust his offense to the players he coaches. Casey and SVG will not adjust. Players must adjust to his strategy regardless of their individual strengths or weaknesses.

All fans can do is try to put pressure on the owner to give up on the AD experiment.(If by that you mean suggesting trades, I agree, but complaining all the time isn't constructive, especially when you should know that everybody on this team is moveable and we have a good amount of cash coming up to do some interesting things. Wouldn't it be better to pressure them to make the right moves instead of being a single player hater, especially when that player is NOT the reason we lose games?) A lot has been written about exactly how that experiment has failed and it is time to move in a different direction. But somehow you like the product you see with Tom Gores and Dwane Casey leading the dysfunctional band of merry men. Maybe in 3 more seasons, if we are lucky, the Pistons will not have the bad luck of Blake getting injured and the Pistons can get that 6th seed in the playoffs. Then they will lose 4 straight games as usual.

You keep repeating the same dysfunctional statement of 3 years of waiting. Don't you even know the financial position of this team? We're in position to do some major rebuilding in less than a year if the deals are there, or maximum 1 year no matter what... know your teams position before making wild statements.

[cool breeze]

Step 1 is to stop the comparisons, what's the point, other than airing your feelings in a fashion that doesn't match the subject.

Casey's system is bad, and the other coaches are doing everything right? I don't get that thinking, because it applies to every coach in the business when they don't win. You wait until they win something to declare their methods work.

How did Casey win with Toronto if his system is so bad?

The bottom line is that this Piston team had a good year, and great 2nd half of the season. Likely would have had 44-46 wins without injury and finished the 6th seed. You can hope they are championship contenders, but your mind should realize that that's not rational.

We're doing most of the right things and we'll get there, but my "THERE" is being competitive, and if that's not yours, you're not being realistic. You get competitive first, and then you start dreaming about more.

Drummond: You're off base about Drummond, the ONLY thing wrong with him is that he's making more money than his production justifies. He's a starter on 90% of NBA teams. Hell, he'd start on the Warriors for sure, they don't need him to score a damn point, just get them more possessions so Curry, Thompson & Durant can drain 3's!

If Drummond was making Reggie Jackson money, everybody would love him as a great value.

BTW, Kennard hasn't done anything yet, but we expect him to. He could make the rotation of a lot of clubs, but right now, he'd be hard pressed to make the playoff rotation of some of the better clubs.

I LOVED the Miles Leonard Show, he was killing it! But the reality is that he isn't anywhere near that good, and is really a big scrub that had his 15 minutes of fame and he's going to disappear next season... again. IMO, he looked good because most of the time GS was playing small ball and he had some advantages and they also didn't pay much attention to him anyway. You should know that most teams prefer to let the scrubs beat them rather than letting those excellent guards get going and beat you.

You are wrong Oracle. How many more years will it take for you to throw in the towel relating to AD? Steve Kerr would not want AD on his team. The Warriors play fast. AD jogs or shuffles his feet from baseline to baseline. How about Greg Monroe? Could he play for Golden State? If you say yes then you haven't watched the style the Warriors play. You have to be a quick thinker. Screens made by Kerr's players, even the 11th man are set properly and the timing is beautiful to watch. AD still cannot set a good screen. He cannot box out. He cannot anticipate what is going on most of the time on defense. AD would be confused. Kerr would not play AD because he has compiled rebound stats. You have to fit into at team that has great team chemistry. The team is not going to try to fit AD's strengths which is only size. This is silly to even talk about this subject if you have actually watched AD in action.

As for Casey's history as a coach compared to Kerr, are you serious? Casey has a horrible history as a playoff coach. That is when your true colors show Oracle. You have to make adjustments. Casey has been outwitted every year he coaches at Toronto when his team entered the playoffs. Casey is a regular season type coach. Kerr is a coach who never gives up on the players he is given by management. He might take players out of his rotation for a period of time but Kerr doesn't have a dog house like Casey and SVG. He has been a player on many teams that have been successful. I think Kerr has 5 rings. Kerr is a genius relating to all facets of basketball. There is no coach like him. He inspires rather than taking out steam after going on a losing streak on low paid fringe players. Instead, Kerr nurtures and tries to infect his players with confidence. The highest paid players on the warriors love the way Kerr coaches. They all buy in and make the bench players as important as they are to the overall team. And it paid off this year in the playoffs. They had been dealing with injuries all season long and this team remained confident and never lost the importance of playing unselfishly as a bonded team. Three starters were out. Nobody predicted the Warriors would go far and expected Houston to win that first playoff series. But players all stepped up and created a buzz saw for the opposition. But Kerr selects his role players wisely. He loves Jerebco and Jordan Bell who might have defects but he notices that they have a high basketball IQ and work their butts off. They don't have to drain 3 point shots to get playing time. In Casey's world, defense doesn't matter. Only 3 point shooting matters. AD has to be featured as well or he will be pissed off and walk back on defense. The Pistons and Golden State are the direct opposites and their coaches are completely different. Kerr can adjust his offense to the players he coaches. Casey and SVG will not adjust. Players must adjust to his strategy regardless of their individual strengths or weaknesses.

All fans can do is try to put pressure on the owner to give up on the AD experiment. A lot has been written about exactly how that experiment has failed and it is time to move in a different direction. But somehow you like the product you see with Tom Gores and Dwane Casey leading the dysfunctional band of merry men. Maybe in 3 more seasons, if we are lucky, the Pistons will not have the bad luck of Blake getting injured and the Pistons can get that 6th seed in the playoffs. Then they will lose 4 straight games as usual.

[cool breeze]

Everyone who works for Golden State is committed to winning. Nobody cares about stats. The coach has 3 starters injured. He plays 11 players who all contribute to this last win. Portland has nothing to feel bad about. They played exceptionally hard. The energy factor with Dray Green's amazing motor overcame almost every obstacle a team can have during one game. This is a unique team unlike any other in history. Some of the plays that were broken down in ESPN's post game analysis was really cool showing how impactful Green was in this series. He pushed the basketball hard after made baskets by the opposition and has that high basketball IQ that few players possess to see how things can play out before they happen. That was Zeke's special quality as Laimbeer often says in interviews. It didn't matter that the Warriors were down by 17 points at one point. But this team does not allow ego, selfishness, boredom, or what have you relating to chemistry killers. Curry ran from one sideline to the other 4 times in one possession to finally get open and buried the shot. Curry and Green are leaders but Thompson is one of the best defender that I have ever seen who also has an outstanding offensive skill set. This team doesn't get down and quit like our Pistons have done so many times when the ball bounces the wrong way. They seem to acquire more energy throughout the game and then increase it even more in the last two minutes. They are all out runners not joggers. They take no rest period when they are on the court. You don't seen Golden State players carrying 10 to 30 extra pounds of fat pretending to be players who want to win by jumping around in pre game. What has happened in the playoffs in general this season gives me faith that the NBA is not dead. There are too many players who cheat themselves because they fall prey to things other than becoming the best basketball player possible after signing a sweet contract. It takes exceptionally hard work to become a good NBA player. Then to become a real leader, you have to up the effort about 10 notches to get others to be fully in to doing whatever it takes to win. Piston fans have witnessed this unique thing when they have had championship type players who come together and will not accept defeat. But given the Pistons current situation having very little hope of ever becoming much of anything at all for perhaps a decade, we should appreciate the other teams like Golden State for what they do for the sport. In the 4 games Portland had leads of 17, 18, and 17 and still lost. I have never seen a better player perform than Stephen Curry. Curry doesn't get his rebounds, steals, assists or points by knocking opposing players down with incredibly powerful arms with a body like cement like Labron. Maybe he gets some favorable calls but not like Labron who seldom gets called for more than 1 foul per game. I know it is not wise to compare any two amazing players but I prefer watching Curry and his team to almost any team that I have ever watched. They are a one of a kind type basketball team that has somehow just finished sweeping a talented team to march into the NBA Finals for the 5th straight time.

[Oracle]

Step 1 is to stop the comparisons, what's the point, other than airing your feelings in a fashion that doesn't match the subject.

Casey's system is bad, and the other coaches are doing everything right? I don't get that thinking, because it applies to every coach in the business when they don't win. You wait until they win something to declare their methods work.

How did Casey win with Toronto if his system is so bad?

The bottom line is that this Piston team had a good year, and great 2nd half of the season. Likely would have had 44-46 wins without injury and finished the 6th seed. You can hope they are championship contenders, but your mind should realize that that's not rational.

We're doing most of the right things and we'll get there, but my "THERE" is being competitive, and if that's not yours, you're not being realistic. You get competitive first, and then you start dreaming about more.

Drummond: You're off base about Drummond, the ONLY thing wrong with him is that he's making more money than his production justifies. He's a starter on 90% of NBA teams. Hell, he'd start on the Warriors for sure, they don't need him to score a damn point, just get them more possessions so Curry, Thompson & Durant can drain 3's!

If Drummond was making Reggie Jackson money, everybody would love him as a great value.

BTW, Kennard hasn't done anything yet, but we expect him to. He could make the rotation of a lot of clubs, but right now, he'd be hard pressed to make the playoff rotation of some of the better clubs.

I LOVED the Miles Leonard Show, he was killing it! But the reality is that he isn't anywhere near that good, and is really a big scrub that had his 15 minutes of fame and he's going to disappear next season... again. IMO, he looked good because most of the time GS was playing small ball and he had some advantages and they also didn't pay much attention to him anyway. You should know that most teams prefer to let the scrubs beat them rather than letting those excellent guards get going and beat you.

[cool breeze]

Warriors/Trailblazers:
Well, the Blazers have two VERY good guards, but they ran into two GREAT guards, and the rest, as they say... is history!

I actually thought they had a chance to win a couple of games after Durant went down, but a sweep? Well, never underestimate the heart of a champion.

Bucks/Raptors:
Well, it's interesting to watch two one star teams struggle to beat each other on the road. This is not great ball, it's good, but the winner, as always, will be decided by whose bench shows up.

Giannis & Kawhi are both stars, Middleton and Lowery aren, but they're good players.

IMO, the Sixers were just 2 years of experience from beating the crap out of both of these teams, and the Pistons are likely two players away from being competitive with either, neither look formidable to me with their road woes against stiffer competition.

The only lesson the Pistons can learn is to get better and stronger, the rest will take care of itself. Teams play much harder in the playoffs because they've been there before and know what it takes, so any lesson to be learned is that you need to get there... period!

Why in the world would we want Stanley Johnson back? We've seen that movie before and it fits somewhere between a slasher flick and the horror section... it's way past time to move on, he's done. Talk about learning a lesson... Don't have Stanley Johnson on your team is a good start!

I believe only 2 current Piston players could have any success on any of the 4 playoff teams. Blake and Luke have the ability to adjust their games to make a rotation. That is I think Luke might be able to do it after he had time to adjust to the style of play those coaches promote after playing stupid ball in Casey's system. Do you notice anything different about all 4 teams left in the playoffs and our Pistons? What are the coaches emphasizing? Do any of the teams have an offense like the Pistons? Are any of the Piston players in the same type of physical condition as the players we are now watching? Who can get in NBA game shape if you are told to stand in place and watch either Blake or one of our dynamic point guards dribble and force things off the dribble? Given that those stand around players cannot muster much energy as perimeter defenders. Maybe they are depressed because they seldom touch the basketball consistently. One announcer stated in the first half of game 4 regarding curry when he ran full out for the entire shot clock on offense after busting his butt on defense. It was something like how incredible it is that Curry is in such fantastic physical condition. Rip was like that. But Rip would not function well in Casey's offensive system where Hamilton thrived with his mid range game going around complicated picks. Dido for SVG's offensive system which was designed for simpletons. Who do you think could play with any of the 4 teams in the playoffs now? Murph stated that AD could fit in anywhere. There is no way in hell AD could make the rotation on any of those teams unless they changed the offense and why would any coach do that? All 4 teams play an exciting brand of basketball while Piston fans can fall asleep very easily with the stand around offense SVG and Casey adore.Even the new twist with Blake going 1 on 5 is not exciting but surprising at times when Blake does score against all odds.Who would design such a stupid offense unless you have incredibly inept players who are not in good basketball game shape?

You need not worry Oracle Johnson will never play in Detroit again. SJ is going to sign for a team like those 4 playoff teams. He is the perfect fit where strong defense and unselfish offensive play is highly regarded. Johnson loves to play in an offense where the ball is flying around and he is moving fast to set screens and release off the screen and actually have a teammate that will pass the ball to him so he can throw it down to an open player closer to the basket. Maybe Piston fans don't know any better because they have been watching the dumbest style of basketball that I have ever witnessed since Charlie V arrived. Johnson can see the court well, He can pass well, and on any of those teams, Johnson will not have to attempt any 3 point shots to make a rotation. Johnson thrives on ball sharing teams where point guards have a high basketball IQ. He was just unlucky to have been drafted by the Pistons and under control of coaches who constructed an offense that was the best fit Andre Drummond not the team. Not many young players can get motivated to play their best when they suffer under ball dominate selfish point guards and have a center who doesn't have a clue how to play the right way. No other team would do that but the Pistons. The truth came out in the playoffs this year and during those 4 straight loses towards the end of the regular season after Blake was injured. Without Blake's heroics the Pistons are perhaps the worst team in the NBA. Maybe I am wrong and Johnson will never be the player I believe he can be but I know Kerr and Walton really like him and they need players who will play for small money. who can do the things Johnson is capable of doing. Why do you think Zeke spoke so highly of Stanley Johnson? He knows that Johnson was not a good fit for the Pistons. Would Zeke ever coach like Casey or SVG and create such a stupid offensive system and feature players like Galloway.

Oracle I respect your opinion a lot. Where to you think Andre Drummond can fit on another team? I am scared that there actually is no current GM who really wants AD. Nobody plays an offensive system like the Pistons. AD is not a good fit for Blake. Blake is being kind to say positive things about AD. But he is not being truthful. I am thinking after watching the 4 teams in the conference finals that AD would be a lost puppy on any of those teams. His decision making skill set is way too slow. His lack of development on the offensive end makes him a liability. His lack of quick recognition skill and lack of basic energy on defense makes him a player much like Greg Monroe. AD cannot keep up because he is over weight and out of shape. He jogs back on defense. Do you see any player jogging lately who is getting playing time in the playoffs? Steve Kerr is incredible. He has players few GMs thought could provide positive minutes in a playoff situation. But some of the older wiser big guys are showing how it is done as professionals. Guys like Jonas Jerebco have worked their butts off to get in fantastic physical condition. Who would think that Jerebco could play as he is doing now and also did last year with Boston? Jerebco has a nose for the ball. He is a fantastic paint help defender who sees things very quickly. Kerr knows that about him and provides that trust guys like Jonas appreciates. The other player that I love because of his heart and quick feet is Jordan Bell who is a 2nd year player playing for extremely low money. What a competitor and Steve Kerr has that ability to recognise his value as a defender and unselfish offensive player and puts Bell in a position where he can be successful. Casey would have no clue as to how to bring out the best in players like Jerebco and Bell. Casey might play Leuer over players like Jonas and Jordan because of Leuer's conract. To me, Steve Kerr should be named coach of the year in the NBA. Look at that roster and see how far they have managed to go without Durant. Who would Steve Kerr play for meaningful minutes in a playoff situation the under sized Jordan Bell or Andre Drummond? Who would Kerr play Jerebco or Drummond in a pressure situation? I know you are not in love with Andre Drummond either but the reason that i bring this up is that I just cannot find one team that should ever want Andre Drummond on their team? I had thought that Boston might take Drummond if the Pistons take on one of their bad contracts. I would do it as quickly as possible. We need a small forward. Make that trade. Can you or Murph think of any team? Please come up with something so I can become positive about the Pistons next season. I am no hater of Andre Drummond. I love the Pistons and want what is best for the future of our team. Again this is only fantasy and we can make no decisions. The owner has final say and it is unlikely he will ever agree to trade AD. Must be he doesn't watch playoff games.

I was thinking that Miles Leonard would be a good fit with Blake and be available. But after he drained all those 3 point shots in the first half scoring 25 points, Leonard isn't going to play for the Pistons. Leonard has lacked consistency in the past but that was a special game for him much like the Lopez in the first game of the series against Toronto where both players not only hit a lot of long range jumpers but played strong defense and rebounded well.

[Oracle]

Warriors/Trailblazers:
Well, the Blazers have two VERY good guards, but they ran into two GREAT guards, and the rest, as they say... is history!

I actually thought they had a chance to win a couple of games after Durant went down, but a sweep? Well, never underestimate the heart of a champion.

Bucks/Raptors:
Well, it's interesting to watch two one star teams struggle to beat each other on the road. This is not great ball, it's good, but the winner, as always, will be decided by whose bench shows up.

Giannis & Kawhi are both stars, Middleton and Lowery aren, but they're good players.

IMO, the Sixers were just 2 years of experience from beating the crap out of both of these teams, and the Pistons are likely two players away from being competitive with either, neither look formidable to me with their road woes against stiffer competition.

The only lesson the Pistons can learn is to get better and stronger, the rest will take care of itself. Teams play much harder in the playoffs because they've been there before and know what it takes, so any lesson to be learned is that you need to get there... period!

Why in the world would we want Stanley Johnson back? We've seen that movie before and it fits somewhere between a slasher flick and the horror section... it's way past time to move on, he's done. Talk about learning a lesson... Don't have Stanley Johnson on your team is a good start!

[cool breeze]

Watching Toronto play now compared to the games they lost to the Pistons in the regular season exposes the fraud that has been created by the NBA owners to sucker fans into purchasing season tickets. I have felt sorry for Piston season ticket holders now for 11 years. Toronto was faking it during those games against Detroit. Was it that they wanted Casey to appear to be a great coach? I don't want to guess but they were faking it big time and content to lose a few games.

When planning for the future success of the NBA the NBA front office left the fans out of the equation. Too many players are plotting a way to leave the small market teams once they have some success. The media is all for it too. Hopefully the owner of the Bucks can keep his core players in Milwaukee for a lengthy period of time. It appears the players have a special team chemistry. I hope teams like the Bucks and Toronto can sustain a successful period of time and beat whatever Magic and Labron can cook up. I am tired of hearing about the Lakers and how they plan to steal other team's heroes. Are they real heroes if they leave their fans for dead?That is what Labron has done twice.I am so happy he is not part of the playoffs this year. The NBA is a business but players and owners need to have some consideration of the their fans. I hated to see Spencer Dinwiddie get shipped out. I hated it when Chauncey was traded for Iverson. I hated it when Knight and Middleton were traded for of all players, Brandon Jennings. Fans can take so much and then say not worth their emotions or time.

What I am witnessing in this series between Toronto and Milwaukee is fantastic. I have forgotten all about the Pistons problems when I watch how well both coaches have made adjustments and how clever their rotation systems have been so far. We haven't had a really smart head coach in a long time. In this series I see both coaches watch closely and see every detail that goes on and they make changes that are meaningful and appropriate. Those two coaches are not making up the game plan in their basements and then staying with that game plan regardless of what is going on during the game.   Casey seemed to have no specific game plan for each team his team played against. He had a system that he thought would work against any team. How would Casey and SVG operate in this playoff series? Horribly because either of those coaches for the Bucks or Raptors would think 5 times faster than Casey if Casey ever made them adjust to anything. Casey didn't have a plan in the beginning to beat the Bucks in the playoffs.  He coached as if the Pistons were playing in the regular season.

Forgetting about the Pistons and just watching the beauty of this series is sweet. No player has rested for any possession on offense or defense. They have played all out fighting for the tiniest advantage. The mega star players don't get anything easy. Labron is not playing so the officiating has been fairly even. Even star players have fouled out of games. Toronto was known as a soft defensive team before Nick Nurse took over. Now in this series, whoever gets into the paint on the Bucks team feels it. Both of these teams are a fluke because they do not involve LA or the East Coast. Wouldn't it be great if the Lakers go on a bad streak like the Pistons? Maybe Boston and New York do not make it past the first series in the playoffs or win one playoff game in the next decade. Piston fans have been screwed. We have been forced to watch mostly reject players who are being paid insane money. We can only hope this trend ends soon and this owner can get the team on the right path to success. Yet it will be very difficult when you have little to no success in the NBA draft. We need a miracle. All I want relating to the Pistons is to be able to watch a smart more committed team show up with a consistently high effort level. If they lose, I am OK but we have witnessed too many players take too many plays off for too long. I wonder how many games Tom Gores actually watches and if he pays attention. How can he like what has happened since he bought the team? But Toronto and Milwaukee owners have something to be proud of for sure.

[Sparma]

What I find easy to believe: after a fairly fast start, the Tigers are back on pace to lose 100 (although they'll probably find a way to get stuck on 98 losses again).

What I find hard to believe: [Don]: "... I will bring up Stanley Johnson's name for the last time."

Don, I think it's cool that you've gotten so much enjoyment out of following Stanley. Lord knows enjoyment has been a scarce commodity for Pistons fans in the past decade or so. If he'd be willing to sign for the minimum (he probably wouldn't), I'd be happy to have him back. And if the team knew he wouldn't put up more than a couple of 3s a games, he'd be worth more than that. Maybe he signs on with San Antonio and goes on to have a productive career.

[cool breeze]

Good question regarding Walkers availability.  I think he has been in the same boat as Anthony Davis;  Locked in an organization that doesn't know how to build any further.  Both have reached their peaks, made good money, gained a little fame, feel every bit equal to their All Star brothers, and are hungry to try and lead a team to the brass ring.

As long as we are willing to hang-on to BG, an admitted fading STAR, our immediate direction ought to smell like ALL IN.  BG needs to be bookended with another high quality ALL STAR.  Below is an analysis of the situation in Charlotte.

5 Key Offseason Questions About Charlotte Hornets

The only risk is the market pricing Kemba out of reach.

Walker always plays well against the Pistons. But how many NBA starting point guards don't? Just joking but the Piston perimeter defenders are horrible. I just wish the Pistons could have bought out Reggie's contract and signed George Hill before the Bucks. I really like Walker but unless the Pistons can obtain some better perimeter defenders, I am not sure Walker can move the needle enough to make the Pistons good enough to win a playoff series. He is 29 years old and is looking for the sky with his next contract. You are correct that the window is closing for Blake Griffin. Who knows if he can even play next season. To be effective with his outside game, Blake must put the fear of God into opposing defenders when he makes those powerful drives in the paint. How fragile is he now after the surgery? I just wish the Pistons could have by this time obtained a high draft pick and selected a point guard who we could watch for a lot of seasons. How many seasons do Blake and Kemba have left? Walker sure could have fun getting Blake's kick outs. He seems to fight for everything he gets on that Hornet's team. The Pistons need a knock down shooter in crunch time and Walker is good at that. The Pistons are in a horrible position right now financially. I doubt if they can get Walker without trading Andre Drummond.

The Pistons need another big man or someone to replace Andre Drummond if the owner would ever agree to trading him. How about signing both Lopez and Nikola Mirotic who are currently playing well for the Bucks? The Bucks need to sign Middleton and that is going to be expensive. Nikola is 28 and is a decent defender but more important he can hit jump shots so Blake could have a big target to dump the ball outside to a guy like him. Nikola seems to be pretty smart on the court too so the Pistons increase their basketball IQ. He makes He is making $12 Mil and will want a pay increase for sure. Lopez makes only around 3.4 Mil and is 31 years old but he seems to be able to outfox the older centers. He blocks shots, runs the floor well, can shoot it from distance and make jump shots in the paint. I am sure Lopez is going to score a nicer contract but again, Lopez would fit well with Blake's game. AD doesn't fit at all with Blake's game. I do not believe that any of the big men available in this draft that will be available in round 1 or 2 can help the Pistons front court next year. It would be smarter to draft a small forward in the first round and gamble on any point guards left for the Piston's 2nd round pick. I really like the point guard from Oregon Prichard (sp?). He is a smart tough player who has been in many wars playing for Dana Altman who I believe is one of the best coaches in basketball at any level. Pritchard had every team trying to stop him but he always found a way to punish the opposition regardless of what they threw at him. He looks to be like a Brogdon type player who has a skill set like John Stockton. I haven't looked at the draft boards so I am not sure where he stands either in the first or 2nd round. If he were available, I would take him with our first round pick. He is a good shooter in the clutch, fantastic play maker, and gets down a dirty making big plays on defense in close games. I can't see why his skill set will not be effective in the NBA. If the Pistons had a crack at getting him in the 2nd round, that would be incredible. But the small forward from Stanford also could really play well with Blake. He would take the starting small forward position one day one of training camp.

I wonder why this owner didn't know that before he made the trade. I guess that I am the only poster who picks on the owner. But unless Mr. Gores makes some changes in the way he runs the Pistons, there will be more head scratching by fans next summer and the year after that. You scratch your head and wonder why am I still watching the Pistons? Why would I pay to watch them play basketball. I ask myself that a lot. But I get really excited when posters come up with trade ideas on how Detroit can actually finally trade AD. Our Pistons would be so much better off if the owner will budge and allow the Pistons GM to finally trade him. Trading AD and RJ would be a cause for celebration for a lot of Piston fans or former fans who are now retired fans waiting for something big to happen. My relatives who live in Michigan will not even talk about the Pistons as a dinner conversation anymore. We have to keep everything on college sports. The professional sports teams are all dead to them.

[lemonpen]

Good question regarding Walkers availability.  I think he has been in the same boat as Anthony Davis;  Locked in an organization that doesn't know how to build any further.  Both have reached their peaks, made good money, gained a little fame, feel every bit equal to their All Star brothers, and are hungry to try and lead a team to the brass ring.

As long as we are willing to hang-on to BG, an admitted fading STAR, our immediate direction ought to smell like ALL IN.  BG needs to be bookended with another high quality ALL STAR.  Below is an analysis of the situation in Charlotte.

5 Key Offseason Questions About Charlotte Hornets

The only risk is the market pricing Kemba out of reach.

[cool breeze]

This draft looks very weak, IMO.

Even getting the #4 pick looks like a steep talent drop off.

That's why thoughts like Lemonpen's make sense. Again, getting a PG & a solid SG that can hit from everywhere is very attractive to me.

Det-Cha-Lakers
Det: Kemba in a S&T, Hart
CHA: LA pick #4, Det Pick #15, Ball
LA: Drummond, Galloway

Use MLE to get Aaron Baynes for $7M

Excellent post Oracle. And good comments by Lemonpen. This draft is extremely weak. I can't imagine why Charlotte would give up Kemba to a competing team in their conference. But if there would be a tiny opportunity to make this trade the Pistons should be on it now. But don't count on the Pistons doing anything right. They will do the opposite of doing the right thing.

Last season there was some really good players at the position where the Pistons could have added a solid player ready to help the team. What was Tom Gores thinking? We all know he did this trade with Griffin all on his own where both Brower and SVG advised against it. There was no reason to include the number one pick. No other team was bidding on Blake's services. The Clippers just made a fool out of the Pistons in yet another blunder that we fans have witnessed in the recent years. What in hell do other GMs and owners think about this ownership group and their management team. I think we have a better management team now but they do not make any decisions. The owner has taken an active role in who will be on the roster. He has no clue what he is doing relating to basketball. The press and fans need to call him out and try to convince Mr. Gores and the other owners to take a back seat to the people they have hired in the front office. They have already done enough to screw up the future of the Pistons.

The two problems with the Pistons lie with the owner and the head coach in my humble opinion. I could be wrong but the evidence is there that proves me right. I have discussed how this owner went out on a limb to make that trade for Blake Griffin and just how dumb of a deal he made. Who doesn't like Blake? But giving up Tobias Harris and the other rotation players for Blake and then throwing in the number one pick in a strong draft defies logic and reason.

This head coach who the players call a "players coach" seems to have no idea how to create a team that could ever be effective in the playoffs. That should be the goal in my opinion. It means nothing to get the 8th seed in the playoffs when you do not have a team loaded with rookie or 2nd year players who are on the upswing. That puts you out of the lottery.

I know this is an old subject but I will bring up Stanley Johnson's name for the last time. The Pistons traded for a project player in Maker. I hope with all my heart that Maker can add weight and hold his own on the boards while becoming the shot blocker the Pistons need. But want to discuss how Casey used Johnson last season before the trade. I have enjoyed watching every playoff game even the blowouts this season. There are so many teams that are playing the right way everyone should appreciate how hard those players compete. Remember the game in Toronto where Johnson completely shut down Leonard at Toronto? The Pistons won that game because Johnson was so effective on the defensive end. Did his coach appreciate the effort Johnson game in that game or understand that they needed one player in the starting unit that was not a ball hog? I guess they had Brown who isn't a ball hog but he is not in the class of Johnson relating to playing help defense or one on one defense. If you have that one quality as a good perimeter defender an help defender in the paint, that will get you in almost any rotation system. I notice that after Johnson was traded, he didn't play much at all. He scored 17 points in the 4th from last game and didn't have any stats in the last 3. New Orleans was trying to lose to obtain a higher draft pick perhaps. Who knows but I know that the Pistons had incredibly bad perimeter defenders last season without Johnson. He was always in Casey's dog house because of his 3 point shooting percentage. Worse though was Johnson felt it emotionally as well. He had a coach who didn't like him or his style of play. That means Johnson was going to spend another dysfunctional season with a coach opposite of a guy like Zeke or Steve Kerr. The pressure was on for Johnson to make those 3 point shots that determine everything in Casey's eyes as to who gets playing time. And Johnson would often receive the ball by the dribble happy point guards at the end of the shot clock so he had to fire away. His point guards were asked to create all of the Pistons offense off the dribble when Blake was out of the game. It never worked under SVG and that strategy failed under Casey but he kept on doing it. Who can possibly get their shooting rhythm down the way Smith would drive with his impulsive style? What happened during the season before Johnson was traded was that a special love affair developed between Langston Galloway and Dwane Casey. Casey just couldn't get enough of Langston's 3 point shooting. Who cares if Galloway, Jackson, Bullock (before the trade) and Smith could not guard a fly. Spread the floor and shoot for the moon. No mid range game required under Casey's plan. His plan was to field a fake team that might make the playoffs if his chosen players could just get hot shooting those long contested shots. There was never enough player or ball movement to have a chance of getting those below average 3 point shooting specialists open but that was the plan. Get the ball to Blake to provide the only player who had the ability to score in the paint and let him create and if he came out for a rest, just fire away from beyond the 3 point line. How can a team win in the playoffs with that strategy when they have no player on the team ho can defend any of the star perimeter players who the Pistons would be facing? Notice the difference between Nick Nurse and Dwane Casey? Nurse has a rookie in the rotation that has become a very effective player. He plays strong defense, passes the ball well and provides exceptional energy getting loose balls. Nurse covets that type of player and knows every winning team has to have one or two of them.

What if Casey had a rookie named Draymon Green who had been forced to play with Reggie Jackson and Ish Smith for two or more seasons? Green is the chemistry creator on Golden State. Steve Kerr and Curry will tell you that their team would have gone nowhere without Green. So how would Green have fit in relating to Casey's philosophy where every player has to be a 3 point specialist with the exception of the franchise player, Andre Drummond? AD is not a 3 point threat so in Casey' mind he has to have the other 4 players out there shooting the 3 ball whenever possible. There is no screening, ball movement, player movement. Just stand and wait for the point guard or Blake to pass you the ball. Casey came to the Pistons last summer but must have never looked at any game tape from the previous year and learned that he didn't have those coveted 3 point shooters who could also play defense, move without the ball, or be willing to make the extra pass. Casey never showed that his team ever changed tactics or created a special defense depending on who they played. There was never any specific strategy that I could see relating to how the Pistons were going to defend certain players. Every really good player scored almost at will against the Pistons. Casey's rotation system would be broken into little pieces and he never could make an adjustment. Players needed to be held accountable. But the only player he held accountable was Johnson. Casey for sure needed another big man who could play power forward and offer some resistance relating to paint defense. But he was willing to give away Johnson who was the only perimeter defender and paint help defender. Does this coach even know that he needs to secure some player who is willing to play unselfishly and provide the strong defensive effort that I see every player giving in the playoffs now? Can Casey adjust on the fly like Steve Kerr? I see a lot of low priced players who do that for Golden State now. Where will Johnson end up playing next season? I suspect he will play for Golden State, Lakers, Clippers or the Kings.

So not only does the owner have to take a back seat relating to which trades need to be made where there are no sacred cows including Andre Drummond, but something has to be done to improve the coaching situation in Detroit. Casey has a certain philosophy that has been rejected in Toronto. I see why he was rejected as their coach now. One could say that Casey inherited this dysfunctional roster. That might be true but Casey was the person responsible for who played individually and he designed the groups that would play together. It never made any sense from the beginning where he played Jackson and Smith together during crunch time with Bullock and Galloway at times while ignoring that by paying those players together it would be impossible to get any defensive stops. The only hope this team had in those situations was to out score the opposition by hitting those low percentage 3 point contested shots. Did he ever ask the question, why are all those 3 point shots being contested? Did the opponent know they were playing against a team with an idiot for a coach? Everyone knew where the ball would be going once the point guard finally stopped dribbling or Blake was triple teamed. Just boring basketball where the basketball IQ is off the charts low.

[lemonpen]

This draft looks very weak, IMO.

Even getting the #4 pick looks like a steep talent drop off.

That's why thoughts like Lemonpen's make sense. Again, getting a PG & a solid SG that can hit from everywhere is very attractive to me.

Det-Cha-Lakers
Det: Kemba in a S&T, Hart
CHA: LA pick #4, Det Pick #15, Ball
LA: Drummond, Galloway

Use MLE to get Aaron Baynes for $7M

Walker is a STAR in every sense of the word, and is in his prime. His presence could very well prolong Blakes career. Kennard would get all kinds of open looks. Then, top it off with a center having 16 ft range. AND, wait for it ................. we still have $32 mil falling off the books in a year (or use a little at the trade deadline).

[Oracle]

"Right now on the team, there is one point guard, five shooting guards, zero small forwards, and four bigs. Even in the era of position-less basketball, a team must have big wings that can play either forward spot. Most teams have lots of them. The other teams are desperate to get them."- Should the Detroit Pistons trade down in the NBA draft?

A mad man constructed our roster 

[Oracle]

This draft looks very weak, IMO.

Even getting the #4 pick looks like a steep talent drop off.

That's why thoughts like Lemonpen's make sense. Again, getting a PG & a solid SG that can hit from everywhere is very attractive to me.

Det-Cha-Lakers
Det: Kemba in a S&T, Hart
CHA: LA pick #4, Det Pick #15, Ball
LA: Drummond, Galloway

Use MLE to get Aaron Baynes for $7M

[lemonpen]

Fadeaway World (hardly the most reputable source) proposes Drummond to LA for :Trade Package: Lonzo Ball, Josh Hart, 4th Pick"

I'd go for that trade.  The problem is that the Lakers would need to add some serious salary to make for a regulation match, and I'd think not all of it could come in the form of 1 year contract.  That's where the thing likely would fall apart.

I think such a trade makes sense for the Lakers IF they could reasonably expect to sign the other AD as FA the following year, as I think they could.    

Det-Cha-Lakers
Det: Kemba in a S&T, Hart
CHA: LA pick #4, Det Pick #15, Ball
LA: Drummond, Galloway

Use MLE to get Aaron Baynes for $7M

[cool breeze]

[quote="Sparma"]Having now looked at the Lakers' payroll, I'm hard pressed to see how they could trade for an expensive veteran this summer.  Ball and Ingram (trade value down), come in together, to my surprise, to around 16 mil, but that's about it for sizable salaries, other than LeBron.

Taking another look at the Pistons' payroll, what strikes me is Drummond having a player option for 2020-21 for nearly 29 mil.  That's a lot of money, and I think many here don't think he'd be worth that.  And yet, I would not be surprised if he refused that player option a year from now.  By the beginning of the 2020 season, he'll be 27 years old.  He's been a paragon of good health, but he's also put a ton of wear and tear on his body (btw, stop jumping to block those shots when play is dead, Andre; not worth it).  He may well decide that's his best shot at another max deal.  He may even think that if he signs a 4 year max deal elsewhere, he might be in line at 31 for one more.

My prediction: either (a) the Pistons resign him within a year for the 5 year max deal only they can give (but please no super max!) or (b) he opts out at the end of this season and signs a 4 year (lower) max elsewhere.

And why did the team offer AD that player option in the first place?  No way was he turning down their max offer at that time.  I suspect that was a Gores sweetener.  At this point, the biggest chance of AD exercising the player option next year is if he's coming off an injury.  The inclusion of the player option's another bad contract move by the Gores/ SVG team.

How about AD to Portland. That team might bite on a big center and Andre might become a better role type player with that team. I haven't looked at their financial situation but they have some players I like. They could even throw in Miles Leonard who was at one time on the Piston radar as a draft pick before that selected Drummond. If only the Pistons could somehow get Seth Curry with Portland doing a sign and trade. Which Western Conference teams have a need at the center position? I agree that the Lakers might not be able to do a deal. Detroit management might be smart to agree to take some bad contracts for the short term if they can get in a situation where they can secure several draft picks maybe strung out over several years. Over the short term, things might be rough but long term outlook could be great if the Pistons can get lucky in the draft. Blake could be the role model for Pistons young talent. He can have a more positive effect on younger guys than some of the players he currently is stuck with.

Maybe this is only a fantasy and nothing is in the works to improve the roster in a big way. It will not be easy to convince the owner that he doesn't have it right that AD will lead the Pistons to a championship.Other GMs including SVG were forbidden to spend any energy that might involve trading AD. That idea has not been tolerated relating to every GM hired by Tom Gores since AD arrived. Can the owner move on? I don't think he can do it. He will need to see an empty arena perhaps but that might not come for two more years and AD might have signed that mega contract you mentioned. I fear that most of all. The owner should embrace intellectual diversity and hire management who have different opinions from the owner and at least listen to those ideas. However, as the press has pointed out so many times, before Mr. Gores makes any decision, he consults with AD. What do you think AD? Should I hire Casey? Who should I draft this year? Don't draft any centers Tom. OK don't worry. Hey and don't you dare trade Reggie? No way Andre. Don't worry about anything. Just rest over the summer and have fun. I will take care of everything. Hopefully Tom will consult more with Blake now but one cannot be sure anything will change in Piston Land. This is a soap opera. The Pistons seem to be only a play thing for this owner. So expect nothing less than AD signing that mega contract that will have to be bigger than Blake's contract of course.

[cool breeze]

Good to see that posters are trying to figure out how AD can be moved. As you know I have felt for the last 3 years that the sooner the better is better than waiting any longer. But I believe that AD's value around the league is much smaller than most Pistons fans could believe. The owner and management has tried everything to make AD into a franchise player for life so with so much propaganda it is understandable that fans would exaggerate AD's value. What would be cool to me is how sweet it would be to dump AD's huge salary and pick up some young players with his motors and heart to bring a more exciting brand of basketball to Detroit. The City would embrace the Pistons more if they could identify more with the players. They need players with exceptional heart who create an atmosphere that will drive fans crazy with love for the players. The arena would be full if we get the right type of players. There have been too many Charlie V type characters which has ruined the culture and turned off a lot of old loyal Piston fans. Whatever the market is for AD and RJ, Piston management should pull the trigger and they will sell a lot of season tickets if they do just that. If AD is only worth two 2nd round picks, do it and take on expiring contracts if necessary.

Piston players say they are happy with Casey and that he is a players coach. I think it is impossible to coach Andre Drummond to any degree and make him better so I will give Casey that. He inherited a bad roster. But his decisions made the Pistons a weaker team this year. He played the wrong players together too much. And he based those decisions mostly on contracts. Brown was the exception. Steve Kerr might be called a players coach by his players. He makes practice fun but there is a huge difference between Casey and Kerr. Kerr is watching the game closely as he did as one of the best announcers that I have ever listened to in either the NCAA or the NBA. He knows how each position needs to operate and knows the strengths and weaknesses of his roster and quickly makes adjustments to the roster by adding the right kind of low priced players to fill in the gaps. Kerr also understands what works and doesn't work depending on who he plays. He creates a roster that can deal with any team and he gets players who are effective that really do not cost very much. Bell and Jerebco both have quick feet that helps then get out on shooters and they both think well on the court and know what opposing teams are trying to and prevent a lot of easy baskets.

I want the Pistons to bid on Jordan Bell this summer. Get this guy and over pay if necessary. He made very little money this past season but might sign for chump change with Golden State again just to play for Steve Kerr. But Bell is the type of player who could change the culture with the Pistons. He has an outstanding motor. He plays with emotion. Bell has extremely quick feet for a big guy. He is a really good defender with shot blocking skills and is quick to the basketball relating to rebounding. Bell does not have an outstanding offensive game but he runs the floor exceptionally well in transition. He moves without the ball well. But his greatest skill in my opinion is his ability to set fantastic screens getting that perfect angle because he works those feet and expends that extra bit of energy to make things happen with his screens. He is a guy who could turn into a Draymon Green. That is what the Pistons need. They need a guy like Green to create the team chemistry that separates the winners from the losers. Green's last game was incredible. To win you need a few players like Bell and one or two star scorers.Bell was a one man wreaking ball in the paint on a undermanned Oregon team and took them to the NCAA finals. I thought that Stanley Johnson could provide positive team chemistry for the Pistons and do some of the stuff that Green does. But he is a bit too small height wise and the players he grew up with in the NBA were Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond not Curry and Thompson. Add SVG and D Casey to the mix as politically correct kiss ass do what the owner wants type coaches and players like Bell and Johnson will not shine. Casey is bent on only playing 3 point offensive minded players at every position. That is a critical mistake if you want a team that thrives on great team chemistry. Good chemistry is absent when every player is looking for their own stats. Two or more players in the rotation must be team first type high energy players. The star players need those guys to get them motivated. The Pistons current management team seems to be pretty smart. They must know that they need to bring in more athletic defensive minded big men who can really run the court fast. It will be up to them to force Casey to become a real coach and create rotations with the right blend of shooters, play makers and defenders. Go Pistons! Trade AD and RJ before the draft not before the trade deadline.

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