Hero Ball by the Anti-Hero

[BallinD]

"What is the definition of basketball insanity?

Doing the same thing over and over, like forcing the ball up against incredible shot blockers, and expecting a different result..." Freep columnist Jeff Seidel.

Watching the game and seeing Weggie drive into the trees was bad, but this picture says it all.  Sheeeeesh!  Somebody slap him!

[Murph]

(Why) didn't SVG call a TIMEOUT???

I was screaming at the TV set for 15 seconds for SVG to call a time out and draw up a play.  

You know when that dumbas called time?  When the Pistons were down by 4 with 5 seconds left....so he could draw up a 4 point play, I guess.  

[WTF]

This is also the problem in reaching next level SVG isn't capable of handling dual roles.


We all know Philly had to dump Okafor and as you can see they took almost anything to get rid of him.  Did we even make a play on getting him knowing we needed a big?   How did we blow the Bledsoe deal?  What other moves/deals got ignored because I think SVG was feeling himself those first 20 games as well.  Good GM's don't get comfortable wee saw too much of that **** with Joe standing pat deadline after deadline I honest thought SVG would be a more active GM and more of a risk taker.  

I would have liked to seen a starting lineup of Bledsoe, Bradley, Harris, Okafor, and Drummond and can't definitively say this is better but it at least gives the impression of looking to reach next level.  Why in the hell do you force a potential bust into the starting rotation, why do you persistently allow Tolliver to go 0 for 9 on 3's? Better yet why are you still struggling with settling on a rotation 25 games in.   

Chuck, Rick, Flip and LB all locked in a rotation (8, 9, 10) nothing change much but it seems SVG has played all 12 players partly out of confusion and not by designed or necessity. Honestly I don't think SVG is qualified for either job (coach or GM) 

[WTF]

Yep there was a time this team was sitting 2nd in the conference and 4th overall in the league but seems reality is about to set in now that the team is sitting 7th in the conference and worse 4th in the division where that sat atop for the better part of the start of the season.

As the losses mount are we now grumbling on the coaching of SVG?  Well this issue has always been my concern mainly because it trickles down to every other ill this team might have.  Eventually it'll trickle down to the 39 wins I predicted.  

This won't be the only stretch in the season where the games are tough and I'm not all that sure that they're learning from this. Do any of you think we'll knock off Boston again? Maybe or Maybe Not. 

Don't get me wrong I'm not ragging on the team and really hope that the high prediction are realized it's just that I don't see it.   I still think a rebuild is required even if this team finish above .500 at season end. But really I think a couple of pieces need to be moved now particularly Reggie even though he's improved slightly, definitely Stanky Johnson has to go and I'm not locked on keep Andre because he's not consistent in 25 games he's delivered only 3 franchise player type games.  

15pt and 15rebs average isn't shabby but it's not franchise numbers but you know Moose use to manage similar numbers and they were probably the most over-rated stats ever. Those numbers could be comparable to those of Lamb but they're not nearly as impactful (next level type ****) Clearly all three had better stats than Big Ben but ask yourself this question who would you prefer Andre or Big Ben in his prime.

I guess because I'm only interested in next level ponder on this a bit Zeke-Joe and Big Shot-Rip definitely next level backcourts don't tell me Reggie and Bradley compare in any manner, shape or form.  

Like I said I'm not ragging on them this very possibly a playoff team but it's not next level for a brief moment it looked like it could be but these last 5 games say's otherwise.  Time for SVG the GM to get his **** together but might not matter if he keeps SVG the coach.

[BallinD]

Didn't SVG call a TIMEOUT???

Damn! Are you kidding me? We played poorly, fought back anyway, despite the GS block party, RJ takes on the whole team on that last play, going one on three(no recognition that there were open shooters everywhere) and SVG stands there with that stupid incredulous look on his face as the game slipped away. "Yeah, that one was on me."

Damn right it was! Stupid Van Gundy!

[Oracle]

Didn't SVG call a TIMEOUT???

[Oracle]

@Don: Ok, I hear you, I may be over analyzing your posts, and I don't want this to be a board that's too critical, it erases the fun, and as you said, this year is shaping up to be a very fun one for all of us who have suffered through a ton of losing!

@Sparma: You had me cracking up on that Boban post! I'm right there with you with all of the SVG meacolpa's, it's getting tiresome!

@Murph, @Wise, @Sparma: That was a damn good trade for the Nets, but what was Philly thinking taking back a 30 year old Booker? Man, if that's all they wanted, I agree with Wise & Murph that we could have given them higher quality players... DAMN!!!

Game: We can win this one!!!

[cool breeze]

if you are a Piston fan it is never fun to see them lose. But I watched the entire game against the Bucks and enjoyed every minute. I never witnessed any Piston player slacking off on either offense or defense. This game was a real battle and it all came down to the Bucks players having the hot hand all night long making a high percentage of their shots while several Piston players struggled making open shots. It wasn't that the Bucks players were far superior to our players. It was just one of those nights where shots at big moments did not go in. I can live with that. It is how the Pistons are playing now that is impressive. They never give up. It is not like last season where there was a clear indication that players gave up and thought they had no chance of winning most games.(That wasn't the case, they gave up because SVG basically sabotaged every effort to win, from forcing an injured Reggie down their throat to his horrible coaching. They knew they had no hope!)  This team huddled at center court after the game was lost and did some team bonding. Andre Drummond played his heart out in that game. The motion offense at times looked real good with the ball swinging from side to side and 4 or 5 players getting touches in a lot of possessions. This team is learning how to play the right way after a season of not having any idea how to play the right way(That's totally wrong, the players knew how to play and showed it until SVG stopped letting them play winning ball). Go Pistons!

If everybody, including SVG learned this lesson from last year, it's disturbing to see you saying these things that are simply not the case. You act like nothing changed, and a lot changed with this team, but mostly Reggie, Drummond and SVG.

Other than that, the most solid part of your post is something that I totally agree with, I love the way they're playing and we're going to win a lot of games once we get past this stretch. They're playing like I thought, and Sparma & DX should have the best shot at winning the prediction game, IMO(50-54 wins).

In a post I made earlier this year, I thought that if we could win 44 games in a tough east, we should be able to win 54 games this year if Reggie was healthy.

Well, the East isn't as weak as many thought, we're currently kicking the West's butts head to head, so DX may be closest with 50... we'll see.

Oracle it is great to hear that you do not think everything I write is a lie. Now my lying is down to a few things that you disagree with. My only purpose for posting in this highly critical forum was to offer my simple thought that this Piston team is much different from teams in the recent past. The roster is different with the returnees now playing much better. My post included the part about AD where I thought he held the team together throughout. This new motion offense is a perfect fit for AD. He becomes more active unlike last season. AD loves to touch the basketball as do most players. We have to give SVG some credit here for realizing that he might get a lot more out of AD with this type of offense. He has made some bad decisions lately with his passing but overall I think he is doing an above average job of finding cutters. And is effort is now where it needs to be running from baseline to baseline and helping teammates at times with the trap. And i must point out that we have better cutters led by Avery Bradley who is much more active than KCP. I do not disagree with you as to the impact both AD and RJ have given this team so far. They are both playing better than ever with RJ now showing more spunk at times on defense too.

My most important point that I wanted to make is to hope that fans and the head coach remain patient with this team. Two players currently in the rotation ( Moreland and Kennard ) are making their first tour as rotation players. In that I mean they are playing against vet opponents in matchups for the first time in their lives. That is difficult. Yet they are holding their own in my opinion. Coaches have pressure to win. Fans usually just want their team to win. In my case, I enjoy the game of basketball when two teams play the right way against each other on the same night. I have watched our team really compete hard. They have gotten behind for one reason or another and yet they do not give up and usually make a comeback several times in one game when they fall behind by 10 or more points. That is encouraging. It is not time to panic. We do not need to find some miracle cure anymore. This team just needs to keep a consistent hard edge which they have at this time. This is the season that the Pistons need to find out how to win. Remember when Billups, Hamilton, Wallace and Prince kept losing to the Nets. They lost in the playoffs but never gave up. You could see the fight they had and how they hated to lose. This what I see with this team now. I think these players really like each other and love playing together. They share the ball and help each other on defense. They experience the peaks and valleys and hold together. I thought it was touching when the Piston team met at center court after losing to the Bucks. They formed a circle and digested that defeat. That tells me that they really care. You can talk about the coaching where the wrong offense was run and the drama SVG caused at times. But maybe the returnees had to go though that misery where they were laughed at when visiting opponent arenas and few cheered for them at home games. None of those returning players want a repeat of those times. You can tell that all of them have put in a lot of work over the summer.

This is a very young team. We do not need knee jerk decisions at this time to change anything with the roster. These players are going to get better together. I disagree with anyone who thinks that Boban is going to add something special unless he has an extremely talented defensive big man playing on the floor at the same time he gets minutes. Boban is a day late and a dollar short so to speak when it comes to playing the motion offense or being able to defend anyone except the slowest big men on the planet. He can't defend anyone in the Euro league. The game is much faster and players like Boban do not fit in. This was perhaps the dumbest signing in SVG's history and I didn't like the Leuer signing either. But nobody is perfect. I like the way SVG is coaching this team now. He is showing patience. He knows this team is bonding in a good way. That is hard for any coach to find in the NBA. Everyone needs to hang together. The players are doing that. So far the coaching staff has been a positive influence. The shots will start falling eventually in a consistent fashion. The players just need to keep bringing this hard edge to every game and they will start winning their share. Then eventually as this team becomes something special one superstar player can be added if not though the draft then through free agency. Then we Piston fans will not be quarreling about using Boban or Moreland. In Moreland's case this was a brilliant decision by SVG to add him to the team. He will be getting better. I love his spirit. His teammates love his effort. Only some fans are unhappy at this time. But fans should love the way our Pistons played both San Antonio and Milwaukee. Our players had a chance to win both games.

This team is very close to becoming a team that can beat anyone if they just keep playing the way they are dong now. So Piston fans be happy and don't worry.

[Sparma]

SVG on Marjanovic: “We talked about that after the (Milwaukee) game and I do think I’ve probably bypassed half a dozen situations over the course of the season where he could have been very helpful and useful,” Van Gundy said Friday. “We’ll try to do a better job of finding good situations for him to play in, especially when we’re having offensive struggles.

“At the very least, he gives the other team a different look in how you have to play things.”

Good news, but I'll admit to getting tired of SVG admitting after the fact he failed to do something when it's perfectly clear to many of us at the time that he should be trying something. Especially in San Antonio, as Oracle pointed out. Oh well. Fingers crossed for some good results.

Ideally, I think you can get a nice O and D platoon going with Marjanovic and Moreland. There's a lot of opportunity for quick subbing in the NBA, if you want the best results more so than worrying about bruising egos of players going in and out quickly.

[Sparma]

Great deal for the Nets, even though Okafor's in the last year of his deal.

The Philadelphia 76ers have agreed to trade center Jahlil Okafor, forward Nik Stauskas and a second-round pick to the Brooklyn Nets for forward Trevor Booker, according to reports from Shams Charania of Yahoo Sports and Zach Lowe of ESPN.

What were the 76ers thinking?  I know they had to move Okafor, but I can't believe they could only get Trevor Booker in return.  

If I were SVG, I would have given up more than Booker for Okafor.  I would have given up anyone not named Drummond, Harris, Jackson, Kennard or Smith.

[Murph]

The Philadelphia 76ers have agreed to trade center Jahlil Okafor, forward Nik Stauskas and a second-round pick to the Brooklyn Nets for forward Trevor Booker, according to reports from Shams Charania of Yahoo Sports and Zach Lowe of ESPN.

What were the 76ers thinking?  I know they had to move Okafor, but I can't believe they could only get Trevor Booker in return.  

If I were SVG, I would have given up more than Booker for Okafor.  I would have given up anyone not named Drummond, Harris, Jackson, Kennard or Smith.

[BallinD]

I too thought Okafor would have been perfect for our "bench woes."  But SVG is too in love with Moreland?  Okafor on PF and Tobias moved to SF would have done the trick.

How about now we try to get Boban some bench minutes, maybe try playing him with Moreland to cover for his lack of footspeed and let Kennard and SJ round out the bunch.  Move Ellensen to start, just to see what it looks like.  Alternatively, start Tolliver and put Ellensen in the bench crew since SVG is complaining about his bench.

I guess a move like that would have made too much sense. Stupid Van Gundy.

[WTF]

The Philadelphia 76ers have agreed to trade center Jahlil Okafor, forward Nik Stauskas and a second-round pick to the Brooklyn Nets for forward Trevor Booker, according to reports from Shams Charania of Yahoo Sports and Zach Lowe of ESPN.

I think I would have like Okafor and Stauskas in a trade.   I think the Nets are going to play him at PF it should work out and I could see him playing PF here next to Andre and moving Harris back to SF.  Too bad we didn't think of it  would have gladly gave up Stanky Johnson and JL and a 2nd round pick

[Oracle]

The Philadelphia 76ers have agreed to trade center Jahlil Okafor, forward Nik Stauskas and a second-round pick to the Brooklyn Nets for forward Trevor Booker, according to reports from Shams Charania of Yahoo Sports and Zach Lowe of ESPN.

[deusXango]

I fully anticipate the naysayers and cynics to be all over this, but consider this trade; Stanley Johnson, Boban, Jon Leuer, and a first round pick for Paul George. The chances of resigning both Avery Bradley and Paul George are much better than 50/50!

[Oracle]

if you are a Piston fan it is never fun to see them lose. But I watched the entire game against the Bucks and enjoyed every minute. I never witnessed any Piston player slacking off on either offense or defense. This game was a real battle and it all came down to the Bucks players having the hot hand all night long making a high percentage of their shots while several Piston players struggled making open shots. It wasn't that the Bucks players were far superior to our players. It was just one of those nights where shots at big moments did not go in. I can live with that. It is how the Pistons are playing now that is impressive. They never give up. It is not like last season where there was a clear indication that players gave up and thought they had no chance of winning most games.(That wasn't the case, they gave up because SVG basically sabotaged every effort to win, from forcing an injured Reggie down their throat to his horrible coaching. They knew they had no hope!)  This team huddled at center court after the game was lost and did some team bonding. Andre Drummond played his heart out in that game. The motion offense at times looked real good with the ball swinging from side to side and 4 or 5 players getting touches in a lot of possessions. This team is learning how to play the right way after a season of not having any idea how to play the right way(That's totally wrong, the players knew how to play and showed it until SVG stopped letting them play winning ball). Go Pistons!

If everybody, including SVG learned this lesson from last year, it's disturbing to see you saying these things that are simply not the case. You act like nothing changed, and a lot changed with this team, but mostly Reggie, Drummond and SVG.

Other than that, the most solid part of your post is something that I totally agree with, I love the way they're playing and we're going to win a lot of games once we get past this stretch. They're playing like I thought, and Sparma & DX should have the best shot at winning the prediction game, IMO(50-54 wins).

In a post I made earlier this year, I thought that if we could win 44 games in a tough east, we should be able to win 54 games this year if Reggie was healthy.

Well, the East isn't as weak as many thought, we're currently kicking the West's butts head to head, so DX may be closest with 50... we'll see.

[cool breeze]

if you are a Piston fan it is never fun to see them lose. But I watched the entire game against the Bucks and enjoyed every minute. I never witnessed any Piston player slacking off on either offense or defense. This game was a real battle and it all came down to the Bucks players having the hot hand all night long making a high percentage of their shots while several Piston players struggled making open shots. It wasn't that the Bucks players were far superior to our players. It was just one of those nights where shots at big moments did not go in. I can live with that. It is how the Pistons are playing now that is impressive. They never give up. It is not like last season where there was a clear indication that players gave up and thought they had no chance of winning most games. This team huddled at center court after the game was lost and did some team bonding. Andre Drummond played his heart out in that game. The motion offense at times looked real good with the ball swinging from side to side and 4 or 5 players getting touches in a lot of possessions. This team is learning how to play the right way after a season of not having any idea how to play the right way. Go Pistons!

[Sparma]

Not sure what to say about the game, which I watched until the last few minutes when I was on the phone (which I'd been using to watch).

One notable stat: 5 blocks for Milwaukee, 0 for Detroit. Flip that and we would have won. Not so easy though. Milwaukee has tall agile guys (Greek Freak, Henson) who battle to make lay ups tough. Saw that repeatedly, where what looks like a sure bucket was prevented at the last second.

I see that Milwaukee's 3% average was better, but not that much better than Detroit's. I was surprised that the % dif wasn't bigger. One thing I noticed, also against SA, is that the opponent's getting more wide open 3s. Also, ours seem to come later in the clock than our opponents. I'm guessing teams keep a record of that kind of things. I'd love to see those stats. I'll give a couple of examples I noticed. For some reason, Kennard drifted towards the basket on D away from the guy he was defended, but lingering in no man's land, on the opposite side from the ball. Sure enough his guy got the pass, hit the 3, while Kennard scrambled at him with no chance for real D. On O, I remember a time Tolliver put up a contested 3 late in the clock in the 3rd quarter. Clanged off the front rim of course. I'm not opposed to hoisting up a fair number of 3 pointers (maybe not 30!), if you've got good shooters (I'd rank ours as good, not great), but there are good and bad approaches. SA excels at moving the ball resulting in the last guy being totally open. Somehow Milwaukee also was getting totally open looks, maybe because penetration by the Greek Freak forces the D to contract, collapse. We do get some open looks, but what I see is that a comparatively high % of our distance shots come late in the clock, with a defender in the area.

Glad to hear you're rooting for the 54 wins, Deus, and for my prediction. I think we had a shot at 14-6. But we needed to handle the 6-7 games that followed that point better than we have so far. Could we win a couple at home against the 2 best teams? Possibly against GS, at least, with Steph out.

There are positives, with the team playing hard, and Drummond looking like a HoFer more than once, but it's been a rough stretch.

And of course I would have sent a Boban trial balloon out again, because I don't think they had anyone who could handle him, because the Bucks' center are struggling on O, and because Boban can get those eager shot blockers Milwaukee has in foul trouble in a hurry.

[Phil-Good]

The few things I saw in this game.

1st. Milwaukee is A better team then the Detroit Pistons. Milwaukee has 4 NBA All Stars in my opinion. Brogdon, Middlton, Bledsoe, and The Greek Freak. This is what I wish Drummonds could understand. Here is what makes The Greek Freak A top 4 player in the NBA. Yes, he can score, shoot, pass, handle the basketball, create for his guys. The Greek Freak is A TOP DEFENDER!! He controls the F.U.C.K.I.N.G paint! He's A ELITE shot BLOCKER!! He changes shots, he defends, he rebounds the basketball. In my opinion, that's what bumps him over James Harden for me. I have Lebron, Westbrook, Durant and then The Greek Freak followed by James Harden.

2. When Stanley Johnson is on the floor the Pistons basically play 4 on 5 basketball. This kid brings little to the table. His defense is OVER RATED. It's not that good. He can't shoot, he afraid to do anything outside of make A pass and shoot A ugly jumpshot. This kid is not A starter in the NBA and he might not even be A rotation player at this point. What disappoints me most about Johnson is his FEAR! How he's afraid to do anything! When Johnson touches the basketball I see FEAR and PANIC! I see A kid that says to himself, "GET THIS F.U.C.K.I.N.G thing out of my hands as fast as possible"! Johnson was sold to us as A kid who is AFRAID OF ZERO! A kid that is competitive! What the F.U.C.K happen!?

3. All and all the Pistons are on the right road. But this Is still A REBUILDING team. Jackson needs to be replaced and if the right deal came along, I would dump Drummonds as well.

Good game Pistons

[deusXango]

Suck it up, square your collective shoulders, hold your heads up, and drag your PC asses on home. There's still a lot of ball to be played yet.

SVG, don't revert to your outdated comfort zone (short rotation and playing favorites too long), the new & improved SVG was doing just fine. Do a better job of managing Reggie's minutes (the guy is beginning to play out of this world ball), remembering that he's an asthmatic.

Stanley Johnson has definitely earned consistent PT, but there's no justification for him starting. His shot is dead and his shot selection is the worse on the team. I advocate corner 3's only because his finishing at the rim seems to be too much of a challenge for him. BENCH!!

There's no way in hell I'm going to make a comparison between Bradley and KCP, particularly considering the consistency/inconsistency from game to game, basketball I.Q.'s, and drive to win...the tape says KCP is 3 inches taller than Bradley, but the game Bradley's shown in the first quarter of this season, I see him as being heads and shoulders above KCP...it's a great idea to talk trade by the deadline, but for who exactly? Whos crystal ball says we can't resign him at a reasonable price?

We've lost 4 road games to some damn good teams, due to some correctable flaws, but IMHO my 50 win season still looks good; the only prediction that looks better is Sparma's 54 wins? I'm pulling for Sparma and the Pistons. Thus far the home team has won more than it's lost and I fully expect that trend to continue throughout the season; the eventual NBA Champion of the 2017-18 won't finish the year playing 1.000 ball. It took me long enough to get on the bandwagon so the first real bump in the road isn't going to throw me off...this is the team I pull for.

[WTF]

They losing because a bad 3 outweighs a good 2 shot selection on this team sucks!  I keep telling you when Tolliver comes in and shoots 1 for 9,8, 7. or whatever it's bad.  Rick, Flip and LB were all about getting the most out each possession SVG still don't get it and this team is starting to look like that 39 win team I predicted they'll be at season end.

Tolliver gets a lot of minutes and he has more games of shooting horrible than he does good and there's no way this can be looked at as being acceptable under any circumstances.   Some times hell a lot of time all his attempts are 3's mostly erratic and mistimed but it's not just Tolliver there's others as well as I said they shoot far too many as a team. 

Just look at all the close losses and ask yourself if taking a 2 would have been better than a missed 3 during the entire course of the game then ask yourself do they win the game or greatly increase the probability of winning. SMH 

Before the weak is out they'll be seating in 4th or tied for 3rd.

[Oracle]

Clutch HUGE 3 pointer in the 4th, but it just wasn't enough. Drummond was huge(27/20), all star material if he keeps this up!

Look we're losing, but we're losing tough tight games, on the road... I can live with that.

Phillip, you're right, the Stanley experiment is getting ugly, but he's much worse than KCP, his offense is brutal!

No moral victories, it's a loss, but one where they competed with a lot of heart!

[Phil-Good]

So how much longer do I have to deal with this TRASH Stanley Johnson experiment?

The Kid is A BUST. I see no improvement in sight. The BUST is toscary to improve his game.

Here we go again with the KCP experiment 2.0.

[WTF]

While it couldn't have been predicted and is a bit of a surprise how bad we are, it's something we might have expected.

Sh!t happens when you get smaller damn near across the board.

We get smaller at SG by 3 inches(Bradley vs KCP), we lose about the same at SF(Stanley vs Morris), all while sporting a small PF.

I talked about this quite a bit, but I never expected to see a drop off this big where we're getting out rebounded on the regular!

Goes back to the long ball with everyone standing on the wing waiting for too get their turn at clanking one so they're out of position more times than not so I'll keep bitching about the long ball.  

Some my think the long ball isn't a big deal but if you give deeper thought you can see it's having a larger impact of the game they've loss and how closely the games are played.  (Remember LB playing the right way) Shortening the shot and attacking the basket more could mean the difference in second chance attempts, getting back on defense, getting FT attempts and a whole **** load of other intangibles.  

And yes it doesn't help that across the board we've gotten smaller that we're not rebounding and defending as good as last season with Morris and KCP

[Oracle]

While it couldn't have been predicted and is a bit of a surprise how bad we are, it's something we might have expected.

Sh!t happens when you get smaller damn near across the board.

We get smaller at SG by 3 inches(Bradley vs KCP), we lose about the same at SF(Stanley vs Morris), all while sporting a small PF.

I talked about this quite a bit, but I never expected to see a drop off this big where we're getting out rebounded on the regular!

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