Ron Holland

[Murph]

In general, I like this kind of player.  Holland is a young, athletic, 6’7, defensive specialist.  

It’s just that he seems very similar to Ausar…a 6’7 defensive minded wing who struggles with his shooting.  I’m just not sure how many of these guys we need on the same roster, or how much time we have to develop them.  

Even though he was just hired, the Pistons have played so poorly for so long, that Landon is under the gun to show some immediate improvements.  I’m not sure a project like Holland is the way to show any immediate improvement.  

I would have taken Cody Williams who showed himself to be an outstanding 3 point shooter in his one year of college at Colorado.  Time will tell.

[coolbreeze2]

This is a weak draft and everyone knows it. But the further down the board you go things get really dicy this year. If the Pistons have the chance to draft UCONN"s big center and settle for a veteran reject big man down line with a trade or in free agency then Piston fans will lose any faith they have left after Weaver. Most of the players after the 5 spot are projects or high risk picks this year. Yet I am going to trust these guys who will make the call. Perhaps the word is out that Clingan might end up being the number one overall pick or selected in the top 3.

[Sparma]

A powerhouse front office, that is; not sure how much of an impact that will have on the court, but I'm hopeful for the (longer) term future again. Guessing that new Senior VP of Basketball Operations (per Woj) Dennis Lindsey will be like a traditional GM.

When Killian was axed, Murph brought up the analogy with Moneyball, where Billy Beane traded to IB (Carlos Pena?) so that the manager couldn't mess with his plans. Getting a similar vibe with Tellum here: you gone (or at least: stay in your lane).

The talk about Hardaway and Harris doesn't inspire confidence, but we shall see. Long, long way to go, so I'm glad that Trajan's preaching patience or not skipping steps. I don't see a full season of deliberate tanking ahead, but I'd be happy to land on #5 again next year (or better?!).

Trying to build a 5000 piece puzzle here, with some nice pieces, but a huge job ahead.

[coolbreeze2]

I vote for Kenny Atkinson.

It is so sweet that Williams is no longer the Pistons head coach. There are a lot of names popping up including your pick Murph. Not a bad choice but my wish is that Chris Quinn gets the job. He is way ahead of the curve relating to having real hands on coaching ability, He Ould create a great defense for the Pistons and help all of the young players reach their potential offensively. Quinn has the ability to help young players become fundamentally sound. Not sure if Quinn has enough connections with the current Piston high command but I guarantee that if Quinn became the head coach, Piston fans will be shocked by watching the same Piston players who lost so many games suddenly become winners. Quinn creates great team chemistry. He works harder than any coach in the NBA as the top assistant at Miami. He is always engaged with players and no player he coaches slacks off running the floor in transition. This pick could transform players like Duren and Ivey into real stars.

By the way I don't see anything negative in drafting a big center knowing Duren is the current starter. I think Duren can become an impact scorer from mid range and beyond. Duren took 3 steps back this past year especially on defense. But he could become a great defender with a new coaching staff and expand his game on offense playing power forward. Duren has a really nice touch and great hands. Meanwhile Clingan offers size, positioning skills in the paint, rebounding, shot blocking and has a very competitive personality which means he likes to kick ass and take names unlike the soft and fuzzy milk toast players who we are so tired of watching.

[Murph]

I vote for Kenny Atkinson.

[lemonpen]

Monte is gone. Now we can move forward.

[Murph]

This would be my pick. Donovan is a tough 7-3, 280 pound center. This is a no brainer. We need size and toughness. We do not need to take another flyer on small forward-power forward in between players or more guards. How stupid are the Pistons? Look at the Timberwolves? I wonder how much energy Boston would have left if they had to play against that team before starting the finals.

As Sparma pointed out, this is a best player vs need argument.  Clingan might well be the best player available at 5, when the Pistons choose.  However, we already have Duren.  Choosing Clingan would be a clear signal that the Pistons are moving in another direction away from Duran.  

I am conflicted.  I like both centers.  

I guess the Pistons should take Clingan, if available, and let the chips fall where they may?  Let the two centers battle for minutes?  

And of course, taking Clingan would make Wiseman completely unnecessary.

[coolbreeze2]

Sparma thanks for your comments. The insanity of drafting Stewart to be the Pistons starting center of the future took me by surprise. How could anyone ( Weaver ) be that far off base? Now we see the future with the Timberwolves. They are big. The combination of Clingan and Duren would transform Detroit into a real threat. I loved Donovan's post game interview after winning the NCAA championship. If the Pistons pass on this player all is lost for years to come. The idea of paying vet limited centers a ton of money instead of drafting a real tough center is frightening. If I were drafting with the number one overall pick that guy would be Clingan.

[Sparma]

Even given everything I've written about the draft, I believe Donovan Clingan is the linchpin for the Pistons in the coming draft.  If he falls to 5, the Pistons will either pick him there or trade him.

I'm enthused about Topic, given health, but no way do the Pistons draft him at 5.  They'll not picking him over Clingan.

Further, with Fred Vinson having been hired, I've warmed up to Castle and Holland as potential draft picks.  Again, I'd be shocked if those guys are picked over Clingan.

Saw a story (chssports) justifying the possibility of picking Clingan #1.

There's been a lot of talk about paying a ton for either Hartenstein (with the Knicks limited in what they can pay him) or Nick Claxton.  Those would be welcome additions, but likely overpays too.  Why not, instead, pick Clingan who should be able to do similar things on defense, but at far lesser expense?  

Then target that 60+mil more for true value in filling out the roster.

Conversely, if you can acquire a good young vet ast well as, say, #9 from Memphis, maybe that makes a lot of sense.  I'd need to see the specific proposal (no LaVine please with his salary and health woes), but the right deal might be the way to go.  And that deal would in all likelihood be for Clingan if he makes it to 5 (which seems unlikely).

A trade down might then result in drafting a Castle, or more likely a Holland (because I suspect Castle would be gone before our landing spot in a trade down).

PS  I leave aside the age-old debate regarding need and best available.  We badly need a defensive presence at 5 (could Duren supply that as of yet!?) and we need a 4 who can shoot, play good D, and contribute in other ways on offense.  Oof.  That latter's asking a lot!  Could Matas Buzelis be that guy as SF/PF?  Maybe.  And maybe Chicago truly would like to trade up for him.  So often the player most needed and the best available player aren't one and the same.  I'm afraid that will prove true for us at 5.  Coming off of 14 wins, I'd oppose a reach for this team, even if not reaching results in uncomfortable overlap.  Maybe Matas (who falls to us in one mock after another) isn't really a reach, but even with my very limited knowledge of prospects, I do have that fear.

Clingan looks to me like the pivot of the Pistons' draft, if he falls to 5.

This would be my pick. Donovan is a tough 7-3, 280 pound center. This is a no brainer. We need size and toughness. We do not need to take another flyer on small forward-power forward in between players or more guards. How stupid are the Pistons? Look at the Timberwolves? I wonder how much energy Boston would have left if they had to play against that team before starting the finals.

[coolbreeze2]

This would be my pick. Donovan is a tough 7-3, 280 pound center. This is a no brainer. We need size and toughness. We do not need to take another flyer on small forward-power forward in between players or more guards. How stupid are the Pistons? Look at the Timberwolves? I wonder how much energy Boston would have left if they had to play against that team before starting the finals.

[coolbreeze2]

If any piston fans have watched the playoffs they must know our Pistons are extremely weak on defense especially paint defense. During the regular season everyone plays at half speed so when opposing teams score easily around the basket everyone must know Detroit has the softest franchise in the NBA. With Weaver there was nothing he would not do to protect the future of Stewart. I don't care how many 3 point shots Stewart can make it will not make up for his lack of ability to defend big guys in the paint. So last year somehow it was absolutely necessary to draft Thompson right? Not right. Thompson was a project at best trying to play learn how to play offense in the NBA. He is a good player for sure and has good potential but the Pistons had to find a guy in the draft who is willing to run the court hard, block shots, get defections and just be able to hold his own against NBA quality bigs. That guy was LIVIELY. Instead Dallas drafted him and for a rookie to play the way he is playing in the playoffs should be shocking for Piston fans to know that our scouting crew, front office decision makers and coaches never thought of drafting him. Instead Weaver was developing strategy on how he might be able to get Sasser another ball dominate smaller point guard. Even if Detroit had drafted Lively maybe Monte might have assigned him to a seat at the end of the bench. Lively plays all out in the NBA like he did when he played at Duke. I am believing that the draft experts that our management depend on usually always get it wrong. Lively. has a really good coach too which really helps. I wonder if Duren might be a different player is Kidd was his coach. The Dallas operation is fantastic. The Pistons organization is the worst of all.

If the owner doesn't want to fire Monte and pony up all that cash, then make Monte the GM but strip him of any power to make even the slightest decision. Let the President of operations make every decision including a new head coaching hire now. Detroit needs to hire a coach who can create a basic structure that will fit the players that are developing. That means actually create a defensive system that will work instead of keeping a coach who just throws out the ball at the start of practice and then relaxes in the coaches office. Standing during the games last season was a big deal for our head coach. He stood a lot with an empty mind.

[Sparma]

Significant improvement is really difficult in life in general, as well as in the NBA.

From my perspective much of the improvement in the NBA from 19 yo to 28 yo comes from physical maturation, gaining experience in game situation, and having greater opportunities. Aside from those commonly present factors that do lead to improved performance, serious leaps in the level of skill once in the NBA are rare, I believe. There are exceptions, such as Karl Malone going from being a poor FT shooter to a good one.

On the Pistons, Isaiah Stewart is to be commended from a significant jump in distance shooting percentage. Time will tell if he can maintain that improvement, with a significant element of chance in such percentages. Cade's shooting improved too, although not as dramatically.

Along comes Fred Vinson who has an extremely impressive record to having the %s of players with whom he works increase, from Lonzo Ball to Brandon Ingram to Herb Jones.

There's a terrific New Orleans article by Christian Clark about Vinson (https://www.nola.com/sports/pelicans/pelicans-shooting-guru-assistant-coach-leaving-for-job-with-pistons/article_bfb9216a-2a71-11ef-afe6-db6d49526559.html).

What difference could he make in Detroit? I love the example of defensive phenom Herb Jones, with whom Vinson worked, not least because it suggests to me what he may be able to do with Ausar: "Over the past three seasons, Vinson had worked closely with Herb Jones to transform his jump shot. Jones was a 28.8% 3-point shooter in college at Alabama. In the NBA, he has knocked down 37.3% of his 3-point looks."

Granted Herb's beginning numbers at Alabama make him look like Reggie Miller compared to Ausar, but there's hope! Also for Ivey, who already shoots at a way higher level than Ausar, and even for Duren as shooter.

I love a statement by Vinson: “Squaring his base up was the biggest thing,” Vinson told The Times-Picayune in 2022 about Jones. “When we first started working, he would turn his body and bring the ball up on the inside of his face.”

A straightforward, even simple diagnosis, but one that would be so tough to enact in games. I can only dream of being able to improve in that fashion in my own pursuits, drawing from expert advice, drilling, and tweaking.

What about the draft? Ordinarily, I shy away from prospects about whom it's said that he's only a jump shot away from being a star, because I regard acquisition of that skill in the NBA as so difficult (Jason Kidd was one exception). Even so, I did enthuse about Ausar last year.

On this year's big board, I landed on Topic, partly because his FT% suggests the basic technique are there to make a leap.

Him aside, who is thought to be a jump shot away from stardom in this year's draft, around #5? Stephon Castle and Ron Holland come to mind. Since Vinson's hiring, I'd be much more receptive to the team taking a gamble on one of those two guys, with their odds of making the leap in Detroit just having improved significantly with the hiring of Vinson.

[Sparma]

Wow, fantastic news that many had hoped for: N.O. assistant coach Fred Vinson, credited by several with significantly improving their shooting, is coming to town.  Sorely needed.  (btw, does that mean Monty, with whom he's worked, is more likely to stay?  Maybe, even though JE3 demurs.)

Changing topics: It's a mystery then that you became CB2, Don!

Had planned to write a long thing on Ivey, Duren, and Ausar, but will delay that.  In short: I think that each has a chance to become an outstanding NBA player, but also that each has serious deficiencies.  Cade's got defects to his game too, but he's a star with defects whereas the others are prospects with defects.

Having devoted too much of a slice of my life to watching a 14 win team, I will be bold enough to assert that, indeed, Ivey's a poor defender and an uncomfortable fit with Cade.  Sounds like we differ there, Don!

What the Pistons really need to do in this draft is pick the reincarnation of Sheed-as-player (glad he's still in good health as person).  Alas, that's not a possibility.  Between drafting, FAs, and possible trades there will be some overlap with the three youngsters I mentioned. Maybe a top prospect will leave, likely some roles will be diminished

I touted Topic recently (as long as his longer term health prospects are good), even though I believe there's virtually no chance the Pistons pick him at 5.  Still, I'll raise the Topic banner for later purposes, when we consider how guys fare who were there at our pick.  With his 87%FT, I'm convinced he'll learn to shoot from distance (even though Killian, at 85%, did not) and I think he'd make for a dynamic if odd duo with Cade, along the lines of a lesser version of the combos of Grant Hill and Stackhouse or even Doncic and Irving (and, yes, that would mean Ivey as 6th man). There are a number of other prospects I like at 5, with more realistic chances of the Pistons taking them, but that can wait. It won't be until the draft that we know numbers 3 and 4 this year (lots of possibilities, it seems!), assuming Sarr and Risacher as the top two.

Good to see you post again, Don!  I see that you're now CB2, suggesting there was some kind of snafu.

Pistons Insider James Edwards III, as a guest on Locked On, provided the following, most welcome, update on the coaching situation: IF the Pistons move on from Monty, they'd be looking for a young replacement and/ or someone expert in Xs and Os, offensively minded/ innovative.  

The latter's something we haven't seen since Flip Saunders; I'd love to see it.

I have no idea why I am CB2 Sparma but maybe now my proof reading will improve.

I took time off as everything became so obvious that reporting on game details revealed the same flaws thus redundant comments meant nothing. Also, it was infuriating that some posters kept repeating the same reason why the team was losing - Ivey is not a good match for Cade. Ivey ia a weak defender. I have never heard of this type of smear campaign against a 2nd year player especially a player with great potential who is one of the few players in his draft class who wanted to be drafted by the Pistons. I still watched every game and saw for myself that Ivey was always matched up on defense with the best back court player on the opponent's team and shared that role with Thompson when he was healthy. We have two backcourt players with great potential to become excellent perimeter players. Quickness and overall speed those to can bring to the table as they get older and into their prime I special. Meanwhile, the Franchise player who can do no wrong has a lot of work to do. And Cade said a great thing to the press after his last game. Cade advised that he is going to work on his conditioning. Cunningham has been handled with kid gloves so far since he was drafted. After watching the playoffs where the refs have ignored an amazing amount of physical contact, he should realize that there has to be more to his mental game than just dribbling into traffic, ignoring his teammates until they just all stood most of the time on offense.

What you just wrote is exactly what needs to happen. I don't trust the head coach or his right hand man. Boston sure picked wisely. It shouid have been embarrassing to the ref who ignored White's signal to him that he was going to commit a foul to avoid a potential 3 point shot attempt. While grabbed the arm and looked at the ref who had been sleeping. This playoff year has exposed some incredible incompetence within the NBA ref system. One obvious thing most of the officials should be fired for is failing to look but up and down when an offensive player goes up for a jump shot in the paint. Boston has picked up on this flaw and in game 3 committed fouls almost every time a Dallas player went up for the shot. The ref is directly behind only a few feet away in every instance. So the Boston defender would show a hand up towards the ball acting as if they were trying to block the shot. Meanwhile they would hit the shooter in the ribs hard with the other arm that the ref never saw because he was focused looking up so high looking almost paralyzed never seeing the foul. That illegal defensive thing was never allowed in any Piston game in the regular season. Let's se if Dallas complains to the NBA Front office before game 4. I have no stake in who wins or loses but cannot understand why the NBA can't hire better refs or clarify the rules better.

Last time I spoke about Ivey who I really believe can be one of the best Pistons of all time. A lot of young guys would have folded before the first regular season game after the saboteur on the Piston coaching staff prepared the press that they had a lemon in Jaden Ivey. He is an extremely weak defender. His offense is not a good match for Cade will all of the suck ups spreading the news feeling strong for being on the inside. I can ever remember this happening and the head coach not being fired even if he didn't do it. Ivey came off the bench in the first game looking timid standing in the baseline corner as the 5th option id Monty actually provided any options for the young players. Ivey took the heat will deflecting negative comments in interviews saying ' Yes I will sit for my teammates. They are my teammates." But Ivey wasn't done. He starting figuring out what he needed to do to touch the ball and made so great cuts in the paint. Then he would move to the top of the key and show off his driving and passing skills or mid range shot making. Soon enough Ivey was scoring 20 to 25 points and the 30 and over. When they said he couldn't make 3 poiint shots Ivey made 8 (3s ) in one game I believe without missing. If the Pistons top decision maker doesn't figure things out and do exactly what you just wrote than we are finished.

DUREN: While Ivey had his ups and downs but never backed down, this coaching staff really messed with Duren's development. He went from running hard in transition as a rookie to just jogging back on defense. During Duren's rookie season he had to win playing time and sat the bench watching Beef Stew go up in the paint against 7 footers. Weaver was sure Stewart was going to be the Pistons star center he had to be meeting with Casey saying please just give Beef Stew one more game as a starter. When Casey finally pulled the plug, Duren became a beast in the paint on defense. Our biggest problem was being solved finally. His job was specific to get defensive rebounds but blocking out opposing big guys, blocking shots in the paint, not straying out to the perimeter very often thus not calling for switches that create a mis match when opposing bigs roll to the basket leaving the guard to contend with 7 footers. Duren's other job was to run his ass hard in transition to break up fast break shots or 2nd chance attempts that happen when the Pistons throw up low percentage 3 point shots. Anyway many of us thought we had a future all star center by the end of the season.

So what happened with this lazy incompetent coaching leadership? The summer league starts and suddenly Duran appears at the power forward position. I am not opposed to eventually using Duren on offense in several different roles. He is extremely talented. But there was big drama about how Wiseman was going to be the center of the Pistons future. Of course had to make people believe he made a good call trading Bey so Wisemen for sure was going to be the guy eventually. So Duren had no idea what the plan was. No longer did he concentrate to become an elite paint defender, shot blocker etc but now he need to improve his shooting touch and maybe he could share the power forward position with non other than Beef Stew. What a dream come true for the amazing Weaver. Obviously our new coach Monty who didn't want to coach must have said hey we can make that work. Who needs to study the game film or create any plan. We will wing it. This is a young team and we coaches can blame them when things go south. Duran took a huge step back this past season regardless of the amount of scoring he created. Now the social media experts are saying this Duren guy is not a very good defender. The Pistons need to start fresh at that position. But maybe it would be smart to sign Wiseman.

You have fired the GM now please fire this entire coaching staff. Piston fans have lost faith. If we can get a solid young coach and Piston fans can be patient and let the 20 to 23 year old players stay together then when they are 25 expect big things to happen. Do not make trades for older reject players who might even have playoff experience.

[coolbreeze2]

Good to see you post again, Don!  I see that you're now CB2, suggesting there was some kind of snafu.

Pistons Insider James Edwards III, as a guest on Locked On, provided the following, most welcome, update on the coaching situation: IF the Pistons move on from Monty, they'd be looking for a young replacement and/ or someone expert in Xs and Os, offensively minded/ innovative.  

The latter's something we haven't seen since Flip Saunders; I'd love to see it.

I have no idea why I am CB2 Sparma but maybe now my proof reading will improve.

I took time off as everything became so obvious that reporting on game details revealed the same flaws thus redundant comments meant nothing. Also, it was infuriating that some posters kept repeating the same reason why the team was losing - Ivey is not a good match for Cade. Ivey ia a weak defender. I have never heard of this type of smear campaign against a 2nd year player especially a player with great potential who is one of the few players in his draft class who wanted to be drafted by the Pistons. I still watched every game and saw for myself that Ivey was always matched up on defense with the best back court player on the opponent's team and shared that role with Thompson when he was healthy. We have two backcourt players with great potential to become excellent perimeter players. Quickness and overall speed those to can bring to the table as they get older and into their prime I special. Meanwhile, the Franchise player who can do no wrong has a lot of work to do. And Cade said a great thing to the press after his last game. Cade advised that he is going to work on his conditioning. Cunningham has been handled with kid gloves so far since he was drafted. After watching the playoffs where the refs have ignored an amazing amount of physical contact, he should realize that there has to be more to his mental game than just dribbling into traffic, ignoring his teammates until they just all stood most of the time on offense.

What you just wrote is exactly what needs to happen. I don't trust the head coach or his right hand man. Boston sure picked wisely. It shouid have been embarrassing to the ref who ignored White's signal to him that he was going to commit a foul to avoid a potential 3 point shot attempt. While grabbed the arm and looked at the ref who had been sleeping. This playoff year has exposed some incredible incompetence within the NBA ref system. One obvious thing most of the officials should be fired for is failing to look but up and down when an offensive player goes up for a jump shot in the paint. Boston has picked up on this flaw and in game 3 committed fouls almost every time a Dallas player went up for the shot. The ref is directly behind only a few feet away in every instance. So the Boston defender would show a hand up towards the ball acting as if they were trying to block the shot. Meanwhile they would hit the shooter in the ribs hard with the other arm that the ref never saw because he was focused looking up so high looking almost paralyzed never seeing the foul. That illegal defensive thing was never allowed in any Piston game in the regular season. Let's se if Dallas complains to the NBA Front office before game 4. I have no stake in who wins or loses but cannot understand why the NBA can't hire better refs or clarify the rules better.

Last time I spoke about Ivey who I really believe can be one of the best Pistons of all time. A lot of young guys would have folded before the first regular season game after the saboteur on the Piston coaching staff prepared the press that they had a lemon in Jaden Ivey. He is an extremely weak defender. His offense is not a good match for Cade will all of the suck ups spreading the news feeling strong for being on the inside. I can ever remember this happening and the head coach not being fired even if he didn't do it. Ivey came off the bench in the first game looking timid standing in the baseline corner as the 5th option id Monty actually provided any options for the young players. Ivey took the heat will deflecting negative comments in interviews saying ' Yes I will sit for my teammates. They are my teammates." But Ivey wasn't done. He starting figuring out what he needed to do to touch the ball and made so great cuts in the paint. Then he would move to the top of the key and show off his driving and passing skills or mid range shot making. Soon enough Ivey was scoring 20 to 25 points and the 30 and over. When they said he couldn't make 3 poiint shots Ivey made 8 (3s ) in one game I believe without missing. If the Pistons top decision maker doesn't figure things out and do exactly what you just wrote than we are finished.

DUREN: While Ivey had his ups and downs but never backed down, this coaching staff really messed with Duren's development. He went from running hard in transition as a rookie to just jogging back on defense. During Duren's rookie season he had to win playing time and sat the bench watching Beef Stew go up in the paint against 7 footers. Weaver was sure Stewart was going to be the Pistons star center he had to be meeting with Casey saying please just give Beef Stew one more game as a starter. When Casey finally pulled the plug, Duren became a beast in the paint on defense. Our biggest problem was being solved finally. His job was specific to get defensive rebounds but blocking out opposing big guys, blocking shots in the paint, not straying out to the perimeter very often thus not calling for switches that create a mis match when opposing bigs roll to the basket leaving the guard to contend with 7 footers. Duren's other job was to run his ass hard in transition to break up fast break shots or 2nd chance attempts that happen when the Pistons throw up low percentage 3 point shots. Anyway many of us thought we had a future all star center by the end of the season.

So what happened with this lazy incompetent coaching leadership? The summer league starts and suddenly Duran appears at the power forward position. I am not opposed to eventually using Duren on offense in several different roles. He is extremely talented. But there was big drama about how Wiseman was going to be the center of the Pistons future. Of course had to make people believe he made a good call trading Bey so Wisemen for sure was going to be the guy eventually. So Duren had no idea what the plan was. No longer did he concentrate to become an elite paint defender, shot blocker etc but now he need to improve his shooting touch and maybe he could share the power forward position with non other than Beef Stew. What a dream come true for the amazing Weaver. Obviously our new coach Monty who didn't want to coach must have said hey we can make that work. Who needs to study the game film or create any plan. We will wing it. This is a young team and we coaches can blame them when things go south. Duran took a huge step back this past season regardless of the amount of scoring he created. Now the social media experts are saying this Duren guy is not a very good defender. The Pistons need to start fresh at that position. But maybe it would be smart to sign Wiseman.

You have fired the GM now please fire this entire coaching staff. Piston fans have lost faith. If we can get a solid young coach and Piston fans can be patient and let the 20 to 23 year old players stay together then when they are 25 expect big things to happen. Do not make trades for older reject players who might even have playoff experience.

[Sparma]

Good to see you post again, Don! I see that you're now CB2, suggesting there was some kind of snafu.

Pistons Insider James Edwards III, as a guest on Locked On, provided the following, most welcome, update on the coaching situation: IF the Pistons move on from Monty, they'd be looking for a young replacement and/ or someone expert in Xs and Os, offensively minded/ innovative.

The latter's something we haven't seen since Flip Saunders; I'd love to see it.

[coolbreeze2]

If someone tells a big enough lie and repeats it enough times some people will start believing it.
That was Joseph Stalin's quote I believe. So who is it? This all started the moment Monte Williams arrived with his staff. Obviously nobody watch the video from Ivey's rookie season. Interesting but maybe the smarted player on the team that year was Bojan. He credited Ivey with helping him have his best overall career as an NBA player. He said Ivey gets me the ball at the the right place and at the right time. For those of you who might have watched the last 2 weeks of the Pistons season maybe you might wonder what in hell this coach had in mind. First off all of the starters except Ivey sat in street clothes getting paid to watch. Ivey had some painful nagging injuries but played with the G-League players and of course Sasser who was Williams designated ball hog point guard. The next to last game was with Denver. Denver's announcers were broadcasting the game. Their analyst made this comment. Why is it that the worst teams in the NBA play offense with a ball dominate point guard. He said first the coach used Cade Cunningham in that role. He would bring the ball up the court and find a way to score always looking to score. The other 4 players stood in place. Cade would get his points and they sit for half of the 2nd quarter. When he returned, Cade was fatigued to the point that he couldn't make a shot but still kept trying even going up against 2 or 3 players. No team can win using that type of offense which is the one man show. When Cade did show some mercy and pass the ball it would always be at the end of the shot clock. In the second half of games Cade played in he seldom ever played any real defense. This reminded me of Reggie Jackson. Reggie is now effective because he has experienced smarter coaches. Anyway, this commentator said now look at Marcus Passer. Doesn't he look a lot like Cade and his one man show? That was exactly what Sasser did for two weeks. Nobody got better. Monte Williams refused to let Jaden Ivey play point guard. Ivey doesn't screw around. He is a team first player. Ivey will become aa great mid range scorer on another team if he is traded. Meanwhile, the Pistons will keep saying we have a great Franchise player so be thankful you stupid Piston fans. Isn't he fun to watch?

This new man In charge needs to be his own man. He cannot listen to any of the coaches on Monte Williams staff. Monte needs to go now. He failed to make any player better. he failed to create a structured offense this young team needed. And he couldn't say no to Cade and let him build those stats. I would say that Cunningham was responsible for 80% of all Piston loses because he failed to play defense and had no idea how to run an offense. And exactly how tough is Cade? If he gets this big extension what will the team look like. Will the Pistons continue to look like Cade's college team in the NCAA tournament. I was so disappointed with Cade in that game.

What the experts should be saying is that Cade is not a good fit for Jaden Ivey. Ivey is the tough guy who never wants to take a night off. Ivey, with the right coach will become one of the best players ion Piston history. Of he will do that with another team as we watch Cade and Marcus dribble the ball past5 half coach and start looking for their shot. I can't be fun to play with point guards like that. Look at Haiiburtan who always gets his teammates involved in the offense. This coaching from the get go has tried to destroy Ivey's time in Detroit. Cade Cunningham should be a small forward or 2 guard. He could be great at those positions. just by concentrating on getting shots at his spots will eliminate the Pistons biggest problem and that is turnovers. When Cade plays he puts his teammates in impossible positions and they turn the ball over. People who are the so called experts on social media have no clue because they fail to watch the Pistons. Who wants to spend time watching a losing team. But they have no credibility. I will throw in the towel like many other Ivey fans if this new President of operations trades Ivey.

By the way it is insane not to draft a big man with the 5th pick. The Pistons are way too small and have no rim protector. I am not adverse to bringing back AD on a 2 year contract He is playing so much smarter now than when he played with Detroit earlier in his career.

[Sparma]

Thanks Murph. You've had a better draft/ prediction level than the Detroit FO (and the rest of us) over the years, most notably with Haliburton.

Among first round/ lottery prospects there are three tiers:

1) Players that D would need to trade up for: We'd certainly need to trade up for Risacher and Sarr. I continue to think (based on scarcely being able to pass up viewing a mock draft) that Reed Shepherd's likely a top 4 guy, so would probably require a trade up.

3) Players to trade down for. On your list, Ware appears to belong there (he sounds like a good prospect on youtube; listed at 23 on Tankathon's Big Board). Also, it sounds like Ron Holland's stock's dropping, so he may be a trade down candidate. This would be a good year to trade down, if only there were a good offer. I gather the most likely scenario might be Clingan getting to #5 and a team like Memphis (sitting at 9) making an offer.

2) Candidates most frequently mocked right in the Pistons range. Given the wild range, this group's hard to specify, but I'd say that the set includes Topic (given injory concerns), Clingan, Buzelis, Castle, Knecht, Dillingham, Williams, and maybe Salaun.

Not being very knowledgeable about that group, I'd take a bet on Topic, as mentioned, given reassuring health assessments. I believe that the space issue would resolve itself, not least because there are various ways to address that issue beyond the crucial distant shooting. For example, non-shooter Duren provides vertical spacing. Whereas, for instance, Ivey's not a good finisher and only a standard passer (to his credit, finding open distant shooters when he drives), Topic is an excellent shooter and is touted as a top, or even the top, play maker in the draft. Also, as an 87% FT shooter, I believe his shooting will come around. His being listed #1 on Tankathon's Big Board suggests his upside.

Sparma…my draft board looks like this:

Risacher
Sarr
Williams
Buzelis
Holland
Ware

[Murph]

Sparma…my draft board looks like this:

Risacher
Sarr
Williams
Buzelis
Holland
Ware

[Sparma]

If we stay at #5, we going to have a tough choice.

Sarr and Risacher should be the top two picks (perhaps not in that order).

Further, it looks like Reed Shepherd will go in the top 4.

What then? Nikola Topic looked like a top 4 pick, but there are injury issues, so he may drop. There are fit questions with him (distance shooting?), but his tape's really impressive as passer and finisher. 87% FT as a good portent (but Hayes was 85%, the exception of the outstanding FT shooters not to develop as shooter).

Stephon Castle would provide an immediate defensive upgrade, but he doesn't shoot well yet.

Clingan would provide the kind of rim protection from a C that we've been missing badly, but what would happen to Duren?

Generally, I'm not keen on small NBA guards (still hoping Sasser will prove to be a good back up), but apart from size Rob Dillingham looks good.

And then there are others, including Bazelis who seems like the guy most often mocked to us.

I'd pass on Ron Holland (crummy shooting), but Dalton Knecht's a fine 3 point shooter. Arguably, Cody Williams completes the set of the most likely guys we'd pick at 5.

Excluding 3 names at the top, I've mentioned 8 names. At least one of those guys will have a very good, even excellent, NBA career, but who? I see Topic as the most promising among that set.

[Sparma]

Tom Gores talks a good game: "I have committed to building a front office in Detroit that brings together the most advanced capabilities and creative basketball minds...."

I'm hopeful that Trajan Langdon can get 'er done (over a period of years)!

Fare thee well, Troy.

[Murph]

Phil….the only playoff teams that the Pistons have had in the last 15 years were with Drummond.  Let me repeat that.  Except for Drummond, the Pistons have not made the playoffs in 15 years.  

Drummond was never the problem.  The problem was and is management…ownership, executive leadership, drafting, trading, evaluating talent, lack of development, inability to attract free agents,  and coaching.  Drummond had nothing to do with any of that.  

Drumminds is TRASH Murphy.

When are you going to realize it?

He TRASH and he will always be TRASH!

Nobody respects Drummond's. He will be out of the NBA in the next Year or two guaranteed!!

[Phil-Good]

Drumminds is TRASH Murphy.

When are you going to realize it?

He TRASH and he will always be TRASH!

Nobody respects Drummond's. He will be out of the NBA in the next Year or two guaranteed!!

[Murph]

Phil… $20 million a year is not a lot of money in the NBA by today’s standards.  $20 million was the going rate at the time for an All-Star center of Drumming’s experience.  It was about half of what we were paying Griffin, and similar to what we paid Bojan and Even Fournier, who did not help us win at all.

You had a potentially good post until you said sign Drummond's. Then I knew that Murphy had lost his mind

[Phil-Good]

You had a potentially good post until you said sign Drummond's. Then I knew that Murphy had lost his mind

[Murph]

With the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, which isn’t a big leap of faith.  In fact, everything that I’m about to propose is this post, I actually proposed in real time, at the time.  And the following proposed line-up is basically just keeping and developing our own players, and drafting well.

In February of 2020 at the trade deadline, the Pistons should have picked up Drummond’s option and signed him to a 5 year $100 million extension, which isn’t a lot of money by today’s standards.  

Then they should have shut down Drummond at the end of the season, along with Blake Griffin in a half season mini-tank.  Then they should have drafted future Hall-of-Famer, Tyrese Haliburton the following summer, with the 7th pick in the draft.  

Then they should have tossed the keys to Halliburton and brought Reggie Jackson off the bench, along with Griffin.  Furthermore, they should have retained Brown, Kennard, Wood, Markieff Morris, Reggie Bullock and SJ.  

And they should have gone to war with a rotation like this:

Halliburton, Jackson
Brown, Kennard
Bullock, SJ
Wood, Griffin, Morris
Drummond, Griffin

I believe Griffin could have been effective for 20-24 min a night off the bench, for another few years, if his minutes were strictly managed.  I think he could have been a potential 6th man candidate.

That team had 3 potential HoFers in Haliburton, Griffin and Drummond.   They probably would not have made it the the NBA Finals, but they would have been competitive and would have won about 130 more games the next 4 years.  

And let’s face it, Halliburton is always going to be a better player than Cunningham, if they both stay healthy.

I disagree. Andre Drummond's and Reggie Jackson! That team was never going to do anything NEVER!

I'm good with the rebuild!

Basketball pays bills in my house so I understand that iam not the average fan. I don't panic and I don't want to blow up my young squad.

I don't panic and I don't believe the Pistons are light years away.

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