Game 1?/ Season

[Sparma]

It sounds like game 1 looked very promising all around; I just saw a couple of highlights so can't comment insightfully.

I think they'll be significantly improved over last year, but then 24 wins would be a tremendous % improvement over 14 wins. I believe in winning seasons in the not too distant future; I think we'll be well short of a winning record this season, which will create the nice lottery odds that we've come to love.

Winning 24 games would be a 71%+ improvement over last year, if I'm calculating correctly. Who, especially in my age group, wouldn't gladly take that degree of improvement in a year in just about any endeavor of note? Still, I realize that 24-58 would count as another crummy season. I look forward to being pleasantly surprised!

The JBB Pistons didn't look anything like Monty's mess.
Aberration or Real.

[lemonpen]

The JBB Pistons didn't look anything like Monty's mess.
Aberration or Real.

[coolbreeze2]

Training camp has not begun yet those social media folks keep driving the narrative that Jaden Ivey and Jalen Duren are on the firing line by management. Will Piston management be that stupid to actually read that nonsense? They have been blamed for the horrible season. Ivey is supposed to be a horrible defender yet the bogus coaching staff who benched him at the start of last season and believed in Hayes must have been doing something other than coaching during that time. Then later they actually had Jaden assigned to the best backcourt player for opposing teams. Did anyone but me notice that fact. Remember Thompson who is a good defender was either hurt or in foul trouble a lot. I thought Ivey really gave a better effort relating to challenging opponent shots in the paint than any other guard. He was often switched out onto a big man because our bigs didn't have a clue as to when and when not to call a switch. That was the fault of the coaching staff. They didn't create any actually plan for the players to follow. I thought Cade Cunningham was the worst defender among the guards. Why has Cade been handled with kid cloves by the media? Meanwhile Jalen Duren needed to be told what his role was on defense and at least one coach should have been assigned to him in training camp so he knew what to do relating to paint defense. There is no doubt that the many of the people writing on social media really do not know what is really going on in Piston games. They don't know what to look for or actually seldom really watch the games.

Cade Cunningham has received his massive extension. Yet he has yet to play a complete season. He was not anywhere near the conditioning level of franchise players on other NBA teams. He looked so tired in the 2nd half of almost every game. Cade did not do any favors for his young teammates last season regarding being able to hold his own on defense and make his teammates look good on offense. This is my biggest worry for the coming season. Will Cade actually play point guard this season? Will this new coach actually repeat the dysfunction we have watched in the past? Or will Cade play either shooting guard or small forward at times? I say he could be great playing either or those positions relating to using his skills as an outstanding shooter. Nobody should not listen to the negative stuff written about Ivey and Duren. They need to fully support them. Have any of you had a really bad teacher in elementary school to the point where you didn't learn anything for an entire school year? That is a good comparison relating to the experience both Ivey and Duren had last season. I hope both of them prove the devils in the media wrong so they will be forced to cover some other unlucky NBA team.

Go Pistons!

[coolbreeze2]

I'm old enough to have learned to be slow to buy into off-season hype, but I believe there's an exception in the bulked-up Duren.*

Dang, that guy looks like he's ready to stand his ground on defense!

I don't foresee him being a defensive stopper, but I do foresee someone more focused on defense and improved.

*https://www.thecoldwire.com/pistons-big-man-has-notable-physique-change/

Jalen looked bigger and stronger at the beginning of the season last year. I had big hopes for him but lifting weights alone was not enough to prevent him from getting in early foul trouble because he didn't have the energy to properly move his feet on defense. Thanks for the photo Sparma. He does look like a guy nobody would want to mess with. Let's hope he has been working on his conditioning this summer. That was his problem last season. How about doing some distance running? Opposing centers were in better physical condition and had more stamina than Duren and that should never happen being he is so young. Even Lopez was beating him badly in transition. As an NBA player, fans should never see players jogging back on defense. All of our big men had that problem. Duren should be preparing his brain to improve in every area. It takes exceptional desire and character to care about reaching your full potential in any sport. I think the Pistons new head coach will not tolerate players who are not prepared to give maximum effort.

[Sparma]

I'm old enough to have learned to be slow to buy into off-season hype, but I believe there's an exception in the bulked-up Duren.*

Dang, that guy looks like he's ready to stand his ground on defense!

I don't foresee him being a defensive stopper, but I do foresee someone more focused on defense and improved.

*https://www.thecoldwire.com/pistons-big-man-has-notable-physique-change/

[coolbreeze2]

NBA TV has been showing the old documentary " Bad Boys " which was first aired in 2014. It never gets old!! There are so many lessons to learn by current Piston players, management and fans who only know the percentages of Piston players 3 point shooting stats by watching this documentary over and over. The powerful bond formed by this group led by Isiah Thomas was so amazing. It wasn't just the team but almost everyone who lived in the State of Michigan in that time period. The NBA Front office and media did everything they could to stop the Pistons from being successful including the ref who made that bogus call on Laimbeer that cheated the Pistons out of their first championship against Kareem and the Lakers. They showed the game film over several time in this documentary where it was so clear that the ref intentionally made that foul call. Still those players along with a great GM and coach made special history. They were a family unlike many other NBA teams ever.

Watching the Pistons over the last few years it is clear there really has been no dynamic leader or leaders like the Bad Boys had. We have not seen a Piston team that was truely inspired to form a TEAM not a group of individuals. Of course there have been so much player, coach, and front office movement that has created this crazy time period. Not to say that both coaches did not deserve to be fired along with the previous GM. In my opinion the Pistons still have no real leader. The so called franchise player, Cade Cunningham, sat out the last two weeks of last season. Maybe he was injured again. ( Ivey was injured but did play anyway ) As Laimbeer said when Scotty Pippin came down with a migraine headache in the key game of the Bulls series, injuries are part of all of it and nobody on that Piston team was going to miss out on the action if they were still alive. The players loved each other and had each other's backs.

The Bad Boys documentary never gets old for me. Will we ever see a team like that again in Piston land? Will the Pistons ever be known as a great defensive team? Or will the Pistons always covet a circus act like dibble happy point guards who look for their own shot a lot? How about 2 or 3 players failing to run hard back in transition after a missed shot while watching opponents shoot 2 or 3 times until they make a layup before our players reach the free throw line? That is just one of the lazy old habits of our Piston big men. They are not in it to win.  The series with Portand where Portland won the 2nd game in Detroit one tied the series 1 game apiece shows what type of character our Pistons had during that time in history. The Bad Boys travel to Portland and everyone believes the Pistons will not repeat. Along comes Bill Laimbeer who figures out how to frustrate the entire Portland team in game 3 and for the remainder of the series with his defense. The cool thing about this team was that the players themselves often created different strategy themselves not the coaching staff and would come back after a loss and use that strategy to beat their opponents. Joe Dumars has the series of his life against Portland especially the game where his Father had died before the game started and Joe didn't know it. What I liked most in that series was how Isiah Thomas led his team. He knew Joe had the best matchup and was really shooting well. So the entire offense was directed to feature Joe Dumars not Isiah Thomas. All Zeke wanted was to win Back to Back. That is evidence of an amazing talented leader named Isiah Thomas, especially considering this was a NBA basketball team in a league full of selfish players.

Now all the talk is will Cade make the All Star team this season? Who actually watches the NBA fake All Star games? Who cares us older fans want to see players who have enough pride in themselves to learn how to play effective defense as a team and actually share the basketball on offense some of the time. There is a good reason why the Pistons are in the basement.

[Sparma]

The McAdoo trade ended being one of the most beneficial trades to the opposing team in NBA history. Boston had signed a good player in ML Carr, so the McAdoo trade was intended as compensation. In the end, Boston ended up not only with Carr, but with HoFers Kevin McHale and Robert Parish, enabling their championships in the 80s.*

I agree with you that the focus on 3pt% can be overdone, Cool. Last season the NBA leaguewide average was an amazing 36.6%. I do want guards, especially, to hit that average, but I do think it's possible to be a good NBA play while not reaching that amazing average if you compensate sufficiently in other areas. Ivey could do that even at last year's 33.6%. His problem is mainly that his defense is so crummy. And, there's a question, where I believe we differ, as to how the fit with Cade is (which is why I like him as 6th man, at least until he really ups his D). And the TOs are a problem (3.8 to 2.5 assist to TO ratio last year). Also, he didn't finish well at the rim as a rookie, then really improved early last year, then regressed to being well below average in an area that's crucial for a game whose game is predicated to such an extent in getting to the rim.

Threes are so much more from valuables than twos (50% more!) that I think you can be a bit below league average there and still be contributing to your team winning, if you're compensating elsewhere (like defense, passing, getting to the rim, drawing fouls).

Unfortunately, we've had some guys at a level where it's extraordinarily difficult to compensate fully, like Killian Hayes with his 27.7% career average. I love Ausar Thompson, but I'm skeptical he can be a major NBA contributor unless he can take a major leap from last year's 18.6%.

And now Ron Holland comes aboard who is another who needs to make a big improvement in 3pt% to become a good NBA player.

But I agree that 3pt% is really not the decisive issue with Ivey. With him, I'd be delighted with 35% (slightly below league average!) so long as he really improved as a defender and as a finisher at the rim and improves that assist/ TO ratio. He shows lots of flashes, so the potential is there.

[*Wikipedia: "On September 6, 1979, McAdoo was traded by the Celtics to the Detroit Pistons for a number one 1980 draft pick (Joe Barry Carroll was later selected) and a number 13 (1st round) 1980 draft pick (Rickey Brown was later selected). This exchange was arranged as compensation for Boston signing veteran free agent M.L. Carr on July 24, 1979. The number one pick Boston received was later traded to the Golden State Warriors who used it to select Carroll. In return, Boston received the #3 overall pick (used to select Kevin McHale) and center Robert Parish."]

The Bob McAdoo trade on September 06, 1979 where Dick Vitalle traded 2 Piston first round picks for Bob who begged the Pistons not to do it has to be the worst trade of all time for the Pistons. " I don't want to play for the Pistons ". The Dapper Dandy coach from U of D sure caused some sleepless nights for Piston fans. Imagine Larry Bird playing for the Pistons with Isiah Thomas. Who could do worse than Dick Vitalle who just had to have Bob. Dave Bing's great book outlines some bone head trades the Piston owner at the time made to destroy Dave's chances of playing in the finals.  

The Pistons front office mis calculated the trade value of Beef Stew again. There are no takers unless they want to give him away. So Stewart stays and Piston management needs to dangle another player like Ivey out there so they can stay busy. The front office sure were pretty silly thinking that they could sign Isaiah Hartenstein after the playoff season he had with the Knicks. They knew the Pistons interior defense sucked but didn't use their number one pick in the draft on a center who could now sure as a great option as a back up for Duren in his rookie season. There is no denying that this blunder will cost the Pistons for years to come. None of the free agent centers our Front office were targeting opted to sign with the Pistons. What an incredible mistake. So where will they play Stewart this season? Will they sit Tobias Harris or place him at small forward to make room for Stewart at power forward?  Surely they cannot expect Stewart to play center again can they? Yet I read that this is a done deal. Fans just forget all about what happened in the past. I am sure that Stewart will have an even better shooting percentage from beyond the 3 point line this year. Who cares about defensive rebounding or giving up layups in the paint? Beef Stew can shoot the 3. Beasley can shoot the 3. We are set and most likely will make the NBA finals this time.

[coolbreeze2]

This statement was recently posted on a popular Piston site by another so called expert. There is only one Seth Curry. He has unfortunately changed the NBA game for the worse. Teams should not create an offense to emphasize a ton of 3 point shooting. Casey did that. Williams did that instead of working with young players on the fundamentals of the game itself. Under those coaches it was always hit or miss relating to 3 point shooting and then lose keep on losing games mostly because of how many easy transition baskets happen after those shots miss their mark. So did this expert ever watch Jalen Brunson play basketball? Should the Knicks trade Brunson for a 2nd round pick because he doesn't shoot very many 3 point shots? Yes take a look at Brunson's stats Mr. Expert. In his 6 years in the league Brunson has averaged 1.5 made 3 point shots. How did Brunson have a scoring average of 28+ points a game last season? The Knicks coaching staff sure appreciates the way Brunson plays the game as the Knicks coach believes that less is better concerning 3 point shot attempts. Why not get closer to the basket and make 2 point shots. Then maybe your team might have a chance to win games.

I saw how Ivey could break down the defense with his wits and speed for the last 2 seasons. He really worked on his mid range game last year and this new coaching staff and Detroit' shooting coach should be really working hard with Ivey now so he can get to certain spots at mid range like Brunson, Don't forget Chris Paul in his prime. He would maneuver the defender to a place where he could always make that 6 to 8 foot jump shot in crunch time that was always money. Ivey should forget about shooting the 3 point shot unless he has great looks and can shoot 38% but his effectiveness and concentration should be to pull up with a good base and make easy shots closer to the basket. Coaches should also be helping Ivey stay under control better and that will really cut down his turnovers. And never forget Isiah Thomas who developed so many ways to score without shooting from long distance too.

I work out at a place where a lot of high school players work on their step back 3 point shot almost exclusively. They read the social media stuff and believe that they will get a scholarship if they can somehow hit the difficult contested 3 point shots enough times. Actually coaches are looking for players who can defend, pass the basketball, break down defense and make spit second sound decisions without turning the ball over.

[coolbreeze2]

The Bob McAdoo trade on September 06, 1979 where Dick Vitalle traded 2 Piston first round picks for Bob who begged the Pistons not to do it has to be the worst trade of all time for the Pistons. " I don't want to play for the Pistons ". The Dapper Dandy coach from U of D sure caused some sleepless nights for Piston fans. Imagine Larry Bird playing for the Pistons with Isiah Thomas. Who could do worse than Dick Vitalle who just had to have Bob. Dave Bing's great book outlines some bone head trades the Piston owner at the time made to destroy Dave's chances of playing in the finals.

The Pistons front office mis calculated the trade value of Beef Stew again. There are no takers unless they want to give him away. So Stewart stays and Piston management needs to dangle another player like Ivey out there so they can stay busy. The front office sure were pretty silly thinking that they could sign Isaiah Hartenstein after the playoff season he had with the Knicks. They knew the Pistons interior defense sucked but didn't use their number one pick in the draft on a center who could now sure as a great option as a back up for Duren in his rookie season. There is no denying that this blunder will cost the Pistons for years to come. None of the free agent centers our Front office were targeting opted to sign with the Pistons. What an incredible mistake. So where will they play Stewart this season? Will they sit Tobias Harris or place him at small forward to make room for Stewart at power forward? Surely they cannot expect Stewart to play center again can they? Yet I read that this is a done deal. Fans just forget all about what happened in the past. I am sure that Stewart will have an even better shooting percentage from beyond the 3 point line this year. Who cares about defensive rebounding or giving up layups in the paint? Beef Stew can shoot the 3. Beasley can shoot the 3. We are set and most likely will make the NBA finals this time.

[Sparma]

Sorry to have touched on a sore spot with Bunning, Cool! Wow, that must have been hard having your favorite player traded. I'd heard that Dressen had smartest-man-in-the-room syndrome. It sounds like he was part of the problem.

With the Pistons DeBusschere was traded mid-prime, while Bing, Lanier, and Billups were traded late-prime. Rodman was traded early-prime, but probably not for basketball reasons. Grant Hill's move to Orlando didn't begin as a trade, and it turned out very well, unexpectedly.
And while it was understandable that the Pistons FO didn't want to go all in financially with Drummond, the return they got from Cleveland was terrible (supposedly Gores blocked an earlier, far better, that SVG set up with Sac). That McAdoo trade with the Celtics was terrible, but didn't involve a star being sent out.

The worst trades tend to be of really young players (who go on to be stars) for okay vets. I could be won over by the right kind of Ivey trade, but not that kind. I'm skeptical a good trade involving Ivey could be made now, with his stock seemingly lower than last off-season.

I'm hoping Langdon will have the Midas touch with trades as McCloskey and early Dumars had, but what are the odds?

Glad you enjoyed my post, Cool!

You provided a fun recollection about Spud Webb.  Honestly, I wasn't even remembering him being with the team, let alone that Dumars benefited so dramatically from his departure.  I'm less high on Ivey than you (although I do believe he could become a real good NBA player), but I agree entirely (regarding Webb and Dumars) that roster management is crucial to developing young players and a strong team.

Okay, switching off-topic to the Tigers: so happy that the Tigers have the best pitcher in the AL and maybe even MLB as a whole, in Tarik Skubal.  And lo and behold recently the topic that drew national attention was whether or not he should have been traded at the deadline.  With Scott Boras as his agent, there's no way we've left the trade talks behind.

Willie Horton once said that the Tigers of his era could/ should have won 2-4 additional pennants.

Outside of 1968 and 1973, though, they finished pretty far out the other years Horton was a Tiger regular (1965-1976), with one exception: 1967 when they finished one game out behind the miracle Red Sox.  That's the extra pennant they could and should have won (McLain went way, way, south, per SI you may remember, missing crucial time and finishing 17-16, 3.79).  It's simplest to blame Denny, then.

A different candidate though: why oh why did they trade Jim Bunning after the 1963 season?

The main return of Don Demeter was okay for the Tigers.

In 1967, Bunning, with the Phillies, ran up a nearly identical record as Denny at 17-15, but with an ERA 1.5 runs lower, at 2.27 (!!), while leading the NL the "in shutouts (6), games started and innings pitched (40/302.1), and strikeouts (253)."  He finished second in the NL Cy Young vote.  

Ok, so why was he traded?  SABR mentions a number of factors including relations in 1963 with new manager Charles Dressen, being "outspoken" [also concerning money, I think], and being the player representative.  Beyond that, oh my goodness, they mention the Tigers being put off by him being a stockbroker during the off-season!!

SABR: "and the fact that he worked as a stockbroker in the offseason irked Tigers management." (https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/Jim-Bunning/).


Wow!  

So far my Sunday afternoon rant concerning the Tigers of yore (when I was a baseball fanatic, beginning with and extending a bit beyond the Horton as regular years).

Wait though: Demeter was traded to the Red Sox for Earl Wilson in 1966, who went 22-11, 3.27 (!!) in 1967.  So maybe it all evened out, as least as far as 1967 is concerned.

Both trades illustrate a team giving up too early on a frontline pitcher, the Tigers on Bunning, and the Red Sox on Wilson.

The connection with the Pistons is admittedly tenuous at best, but trades and their timing still matter a ton.  Clearly, that wasn't Weaver's forte.  I hope, hope, Langdon makes good decisions with Ivey and others.  And that they're ok with players moonlighting as stockbrokers.

Sparma you opened an old wound and I am feeling the pain again. I was a kid when Bunning was traded. I would sit in our parents car at night listening to every Tiger game with my older brother. Jim Bunning was my favorite player. God we were so upset when he was traded. Charles Dressen was in idiot. We always said that. His blunders cost the Tigers so many games. Jim Bunning was such a smart ball player and person.

I am getting tired of the people in suits occupying seats in the front office of NBA teams being more important than the players or the fans who support NBA teams. Everything is so different now where fans really don't feel any loyalty to the players and players don't feel anything at all for the fans in many cases. Way back when there was very little movement of players within the Tigers organization. Those players on the Tigers-Lions and Pistons were our role models and heroes. We would try to copy their habits and quirks while goofing off with our teammates and buddies. Now some kids are cooking up trade ideas in their rooms instead of getting outside and learning how to play sports themselves.  
Anyway it was cool for you to bring back some of the names and situations from that era. Thanks.

I still am puzzled with the idea that somehow Malik Beasley is such a better long term fit regarding building a competent Piston team in the future. So Ivey is 22 years old and Beasley is 28 years old. Ivey has had experience playing both point guard and the 2 guard. Why so much negative attention for Ivey at his young age? One professional sports writer advised that Ivey was a horrible defender last season. No Piston player showed very much competence as an on ball defender or off ball defender or help defender. But somehow Stewart is a really good defender right. No that isn't right. Stewart was a hirable option as an interior defender. He could move well on the perimeter against smaller players. But in most games last season after the Piston coaching staff had trashed Ivey's defense in training camp, Ivey was assigned the best backcourt offensive player. Never did that coaching staff pencil in Cade as that guy. Sometimes Thompson would move out to defend those players with no better result than when Ivey did it. The Pistons had no defensive system in place. Often either Stewart, Duren, Wiseman or Bailey would move out of the paint and call for a switch. That left them out o the paint and forced players like Ivey to defend an opposing big man. Those blunders never stopped throughout the year and also happened during Casey's tenure the year before. So the guards take the blame. the coaching staff is sleeping or failing to install a defense and work on that defense in practice especially relating to the pick and roll situations that opposing teams exploited time after time? Was it the fault of the Pistons big men who lacked a high basketball IQ that Bill Limber had? Or should the blame for allowing that to continue fall on the coaching staff? I say it was the coaching staff. But that will never stop fans and media repeating the nonsense that Ivey was a horrible defender worse than anyone on the team. That is bull crap. Ivey provided a lot of energy on defense. He actually tried to become a help defender. His value is way under estimated and I fear the false fake stories will win out and our fragile Piston leadership wearing the suits will not know enough to put a stop to those fake stories. I fear that Ivey might actually welcome a trade at this time. Then like Jim Bunning, I will lose my passion for the Pistons. The Pistons are like the old Washington Senators. They are a farm team always helping the playoff teams.

[coolbreeze2]

[quote="Sparma"]Glad you enjoyed my post, Cool!

You provided a fun recollection about Spud Webb.  Honestly, I wasn't even remembering him being with the team, let alone that Dumars benefited so dramatically from his departure.  I'm less high on Ivey than you (although I do believe he could become a real good NBA player), but I agree entirely (regarding Webb and Dumars) that roster management is crucial to developing young players and a strong team.

Okay, switching off-topic to the Tigers: so happy that the Tigers have the best pitcher in the AL and maybe even MLB as a whole, in Tarik Skubal.  And lo and behold recently the topic that drew national attention was whether or not he should have been traded at the deadline.  With Scott Boras as his agent, there's no way we've left the trade talks behind.

Willie Horton once said that the Tigers of his era could/ should have won 2-4 additional pennants.

Outside of 1968 and 1973, though, they finished pretty far out the other years Horton was a Tiger regular (1965-1976), with one exception: 1967 when they finished one game out behind the miracle Red Sox.  That's the extra pennant they could and should have won (McLain went way, way, south, per SI you may remember, missing crucial time and finishing 17-16, 3.79).  It's simplest to blame Denny, then.

A different candidate though: why oh why did they trade Jim Bunning after the 1963 season?

The main return of Don Demeter was okay for the Tigers.

In 1967, Bunning, with the Phillies, ran up a nearly identical record as Denny at 17-15, but with an ERA 1.5 runs lower, at 2.27 (!!), while leading the NL the "in shutouts (6), games started and innings pitched (40/302.1), and strikeouts (253)."  He finished second in the NL Cy Young vote.  

Ok, so why was he traded?  SABR mentions a number of factors including relations in 1963 with new manager Charles Dressen, being "outspoken" [also concerning money, I think], and being the player representative.  Beyond that, oh my goodness, they mention the Tigers being put off by him being a stockbroker during the off-season!!

SABR: "and the fact that he worked as a stockbroker in the offseason irked Tigers management." (https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/Jim-Bunning/).


Wow!  

So far my Sunday afternoon rant concerning the Tigers of yore (when I was a baseball fanatic, beginning with and extending a bit beyond the Horton as regular years).

Wait though: Demeter was traded to the Red Sox for Earl Wilson in 1966, who went 22-11, 3.27 (!!) in 1967.  So maybe it all evened out, as least as far as 1967 is concerned.

Both trades illustrate a team giving up too early on a frontline pitcher, the Tigers on Bunning, and the Red Sox on Wilson.

The connection with the Pistons is admittedly tenuous at best, but trades and their timing still matter a ton.  Clearly, that wasn't Weaver's forte.  I hope, hope, Langdon makes good decisions with Ivey and others.  And that they're ok with players moonlighting as stockbrokers.

Sparma you opened an old wound and I am feeling the pain again. I was a kid when Bunning was traded. I would sit in our parents car at night listening to every Tiger game with my older brother. Jim Bunning was my favorite player. God we were so upset when he was traded. Charles Dressen was in idiot. We always said that. His blunders cost the Tigers so many games. Jim Bunning was such a smart ball player and person.

I am getting tired of the people in suits occupying seats in the front office of NBA teams being more important than the players or the fans who support NBA teams. Everything is so different now where fans really don't feel any loyalty to the players and players don't feel anything at all for the fans in many cases. Way back when there was very little movement of players within the Tigers organization. Those players on the Tigers-Lions and Pistons were our role models and heroes. We would try to copy their habits and quirks while goofing off with our teammates and buddies. Now some kids are cooking up trade ideas in their rooms instead of getting outside and learning how to play sports themselves.
Anyway it was cool for you to bring back some of the names and situations from that era. Thanks.

I still am puzzled with the idea that somehow Malik Beasley is such a better long term fit regarding building a competent Piston team in the future. So Ivey is 22 years old and Beasley is 28 years old. Ivey has had experience playing both point guard and the 2 guard. Why so much negative attention for Ivey at his young age? One professional sports writer advised that Ivey was a horrible defender last season. No Piston player showed very much competence as an on ball defender or off ball defender or help defender. But somehow Stewart is a really good defender right. No that isn't right. Stewart was a hirable option as an interior defender. He could move well on the perimeter against smaller players. But in most games last season after the Piston coaching staff had trashed Ivey's defense in training camp, Ivey was assigned the best backcourt offensive player. Never did that coaching staff pencil in Cade as that guy. Sometimes Thompson would move out to defend those players with no better result than when Ivey did it. The Pistons had no defensive system in place. Often either Stewart, Duren, Wiseman or Bailey would move out of the paint and call for a switch. That left them out o the paint and forced players like Ivey to defend an opposing big man. Those blunders never stopped throughout the year and also happened during Casey's tenure the year before. So the guards take the blame. the coaching staff is sleeping or failing to install a defense and work on that defense in practice especially relating to the pick and roll situations that opposing teams exploited time after time? Was it the fault of the Pistons big men who lacked a high basketball IQ that Bill Limber had? Or should the blame for allowing that to continue fall on the coaching staff? I say it was the coaching staff. But that will never stop fans and media repeating the nonsense that Ivey was a horrible defender worse than anyone on the team. That is bull crap. Ivey provided a lot of energy on defense. He actually tried to become a help defender. His value is way under estimated and I fear the false fake stories will win out and our fragile Piston leadership wearing the suits will not know enough to put a stop to those fake stories. I fear that Ivey might actually welcome a trade at this time. Then like Jim Bunning, I will lose my passion for the Pistons. The Pistons are like the old Washington Senators. They are a farm team always helping the playoff teams.

[Sparma]

Glad you enjoyed my post, Cool!

You provided a fun recollection about Spud Webb. Honestly, I wasn't even remembering him being with the team, let alone that Dumars benefited so dramatically from his departure. I'm less high on Ivey than you (although I do believe he could become a real good NBA player), but I agree entirely (regarding Webb and Dumars) that roster management is crucial to developing young players and a strong team.

Okay, switching off-topic to the Tigers: so happy that the Tigers have the best pitcher in the AL and maybe even MLB as a whole, in Tarik Skubal. And lo and behold recently the topic that drew national attention was whether or not he should have been traded at the deadline. With Scott Boras as his agent, there's no way we've left the trade talks behind.

Willie Horton once said that the Tigers of his era could/ should have won 2-4 additional pennants.

Outside of 1968 and 1973, though, they finished pretty far out the other years Horton was a Tiger regular (1965-1976), with one exception: 1967 when they finished one game out behind the miracle Red Sox. That's the extra pennant they could and should have won (McLain went way, way, south, per SI you may remember, missing crucial time and finishing 17-16, 3.79). It's simplest to blame Denny, then.

A different candidate though: why oh why did they trade Jim Bunning after the 1963 season?

The main return of Don Demeter was okay for the Tigers.

In 1967, Bunning, with the Phillies, ran up a nearly identical record as Denny at 17-15, but with an ERA 1.5 runs lower, at 2.27 (!!), while leading the NL the "in shutouts (6), games started and innings pitched (40/302.1), and strikeouts (253)." He finished second in the NL Cy Young vote.

Ok, so why was he traded? SABR mentions a number of factors including relations in 1963 with new manager Charles Dressen, being "outspoken" [also concerning money, I think], and being the player representative. Beyond that, oh my goodness, they mention the Tigers being put off by him being a stockbroker during the off-season!!

SABR: "and the fact that he worked as a stockbroker in the offseason irked Tigers management." (https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/Jim-Bunning/).

Wow!

So far my Sunday afternoon rant concerning the Tigers of yore (when I was a baseball fanatic, beginning with and extending a bit beyond the Horton as regular years).

Wait though: Demeter was traded to the Red Sox for Earl Wilson in 1966, who went 22-11, 3.27 (!!) in 1967. So maybe it all evened out, as least as far as 1967 is concerned.

Both trades illustrate a team giving up too early on a frontline pitcher, the Tigers on Bunning, and the Red Sox on Wilson.

The connection with the Pistons is admittedly tenuous at best, but trades and their timing still matter a ton. Clearly, that wasn't Weaver's forte. I hope, hope, Langdon makes good decisions with Ivey and others. And that they're ok with players moonlighting as stockbrokers.

[coolbreeze2]

First off I enjoyed your comments Sparma. I too will fork out money to watch just the Pistons again. If the Pistons trade Ivey I am done though. Maybe there could be some strategy being played by other teams especially the New York Knicks hoping if their internet writers say " Ivey is not a good fit for Cade" enough times then the always eager to make another bad trade Piston front office, might believe they need to move Ivey way before they could possibly know the real value of Jaden Ivey? Like many Piston fans, Ivey is my favorite Piston player. I love watching him develop. I was so proud of Jaden when he elected to play the last 10 games instead of sitting on the bench like Cade and other piston players. Who wants to take a chance on an injury playing meaningless games. I was shocked that Cade did not play in those games being he is supposed to be the team leader. Was he injured? Maybe but so was Ivey.

Over the past 2 months I have read countless articles about Malik Beasley being a good fit for Cade. After all Malik averaged 11.3 points a game last season. His 3 point shooting percentage was 46.3% and his field goal % was 44.3. Beasley averaged 29.6 minutes because so many of his teammates were injured. Beasley also shot free throws at a 71.4 clip. However, his assist average was only 1.4%. Also fans should not forget that Beasley is also 28 years old. Beasley played with superior players last season and did not have to shoot the ball at the end of the shot clock like Ivey had to do because he was playing with ball dominate point guards Cade and Sasser. I have never been impressed with Beasley's overall game but I sure hope he has a good season with the Pistons. The devil is in the details.

Ivey is 22 years old and is 6'4" tall and has super speed. Playoff caliber teams are always looking for players like Ivey. Ivey averaged about the same amount of minutes as Beasley last season and he averaged 15.4 points a game playing for a coach who played mind games with him. His assist rate was 3.8 but his 3 point shooting percentage was only 33.6. Yet his free throw percentage was better than Beasley at 74.8%. Dissecting the stats can never determine the future but who might anticipate that by season 4 or 5 Jaden Ivey will be an All Star NBA player. I would say the NY Knicks and several other current playoff teams would believe that will happen.

After watching Cade play point guard last season I is clear to me that it couldn't have been easy for the 2 guard or small forwards to play with him on offense. It never is when you are stuck with a ball dominate player trying to prove he should get a max contract. Years ago I used to run from my home to Oakland University and watch the Lions training camp workouts in the fall and a professional soccer team as well practicing at the same time. then I found out that the Pistons would be holding their training camp at Oakland. That year spud Webb was trying out for a guard position. Joe Dumars was the Pistons number one pick that year too. I was able to get in because I was coaching high school varsity basketball at the time. There were 5 outstanding guards playing for the Pistons in the scrimmages. The forwards and centers really sucked though. But Spud was the best player by far among the guards. Joe Dumars really didn't stand out at all which should be expected. When the Pistons cut Spud Webb I was in shock after watching several practices. However, everything worked out fantastic as Joe Dumars turned out to be a great 2 guard. Why did Joe develop into such a good player so quickly? Can anyone guess? Dumars had the good fortune to play alongside Isiah Thomas. He make every player on his team better. Zeke was a true point guard and incredible leader who immediately became an outstanding NBA player. Jaden Ivey has never experienced such a thing. Zeke would never have allowed the nonsense that happened with coach William's mind games relating to Ivey. Still Ivey did not let that situation get to him. He found a way to impact the game.

The question I have is who is Cade Cunningham? Is he a real leader? Does he have the backs of his teammates. Players win games and the most difficult position to play is point guard. You need to see situations quickly and think 2 to 3 plays ahead. Cade just dribbles the ball up the court and look for his own shot first so far. Coach B is a smart guy and should make a lot of changes as to how the offense is run as well as improving the defense especially in transition situations. Meanwhile if Cade continues to learn the point guard position he needs to become a better fit for his teammates. So the real truth is for sure not true that Ivey is not a good fit for Cade or any other Piston who played with Cade last season. Bojan said Ivey was the guy who helped him have his best overall career season his first year with the Pistons. Ivey was playing point guard. I am not saying ivey should play point guard here but I am not sure Bojan would have gotten those great looks if Cade had been playing point guard during that time.

[Sparma]

Concerning the question you passed along, Don, I'd say it depends on the match-up. Duren's ceiling is higher, but he won't come close to reaching it without serious defensive improvement.

I did watch a lot, too much, Pistons basketball last year. I've cancelled my one team subscription, for now, even though I expect this to be quite an interesting team to follow this coming season. That's partly because I was bummed when NBA League Pass offered a fantastic deal on League wide pass, but I missed out because of the 1 team deal I was on. Think I could have switched, but at a price. Good chance I'll be back to watching too much Piston basketball as the season progresses.

I agree, Don, that the Pistons badly need a really big (ie by NBA standards, bigger than Duren, our biggest guy in an undersized C(/PF) group) center who can protect the rim (Duren should be able to, but falls short there so far). I was surprised when they picked Holland over Clingan, and disappointed. For me, the silver lining of the pick is that Langdon must really believe in the guy and is willing to stick his neck out (maybe because Holland's stroke looks promising in spite of poor results so far?). Also, if Holland hits, he should have the higher ceiling. And I'm guessing his chances of staying healthy are better than Clingan's. At this early stage, I'd really like to give Langdon the benefit of the doubt (something that didn't pay off in the case of Weaver). Still, I'm with you, Don, in preferring the big guy.

Stewart improved tremendously from distance, from 34.8% for his career to 38.3%. That's really impressive, more than 10% (and more, given that Stewart's career % would have been lower at the beginning of the season, before last year's high % was factored in). Wish I could improve that much in a year!! Still, he didn't seem to win the respect of defense much, increasing the overall spacing. Also, his availability numbers aren't looking great after 4 seasons. And weirdly, his improved shooting was paired with a dive in PER (career 13.7; season 11.3), likely due to playing outside more and losing some bounds.

All that said, I've come to appreciate Stewart as a hard-working, physical, spirited played and have become convinced that he'll comfortably live up to his contract. Rumor has it that a number of teams have been interested in acquiring him. I continue to believe that he's the likeliest key Piston to be traded, with Ivey looking second most likely in my book. I'd thought that Stewart might be sent out for a massive second-string C, but nothing so far.

Can Anyone answer that question who has actually watched the Pistons for the past 4 seasons? Obviously " Locked On Pistons " debate hasn't bothered to see by watching games as to why Duren replaced Stewart in the starting lineup. Remember why Beef Stew Was forced to change positions for him to get playing time?

It seems that regardless of what has happened in the past some people insist that Stewart is actually a strong NBA center either starting, coming off the bench or now being a closer at that position. What would the opposing team's coach do if Beef Stew came off the bench in crunch time? Maybe just maybe could or would a non sleeping coach actually insert a big center into the lineup? Most teams have two of those big centers. Only in very limited situations should Stewart ever play center. Stewart could play defense on a guard on the perimeter or even a small forward. But it has been proven many times that opponents score easily if Stewart has to guard the paint in crunch time. It is unfair to ask Stewart to be humiliated by current NBA big men who are so much bigger than Stewart.

I worry about this old idea whenever I see it in writing because it just could be that the Piston front office is thinking of counting on Stewart to back up or even close games playing center. If they do that then the Pistons will once again be the worst team in the NBA. There will only be the front office to blame now. Lack of size or ability to play defense in the paint by our centers has killed the Pistons chances for many years. Imagine when the Timberwolves come to Detroit or almost any NBA team that has properly filled the center and power forward positions with big athletic players. I thought that now that Weaver is gone we would never have to witness the ass kickings the Pistons have endured so many times. why would anyone be worrying about shooting percentages of our guards and small forwards when this basic obvious team weakness remains? Our new President of operations must be smarter than he is showing at this time but other NBA teams are licking their chops now when they see the Pistons on their schedule. He failed to draft a potentially franchise center in this past draft and instead selected a project wing. Obviously he over estimated his ability to secure a solid BIG CENTER to could actually take up space on defense and defend against BIG CENTERS. Duren is small compared to most successful NBA big men. He struggles defending opponent centers because Duren is not as tall or as wide as opposing centers plus he is still very young and lost a year relating to defense because of the previous coaching staff and Durens own decision to slack off on getting back on defense quickly. Our only chance to winning will be if Duren can stay out of foul trouble ( something he could not do last season ) and is 25% stronger and in 50% better shape. The back up center from Philly is also small for an NBA center but we have to hope he can become an elite defender like Ben Wallace. Maybe he will be a sleeper and a big game hunter on defense for the Pistons next year. Why would Piston management maybe be leaking stories about Stewart being the primary Center backup. The only reason has to be that Piston management over estimated the trade value Beef Stew might have been before they made their draft pick. That is scary as it shows that the new management failed to do the necessary work reviewing Piston game film from past seasons to actually know where the biggest weaknesses relating to defense were when they took over. Other NBA teams will not part with centers who dominate against teams like the Pistons. That is why it is incredible to me that the Pistons passed on the UCONN center who has the potential to become a really solid interior defenders and defensive rebounders especially in crunch time in the current NBA. Ben Wallace was the key player who changed the Pistons from the silly soft Teal team to a kick ass and take names Piston team that every fan loves.  

[coolbreeze2]

Can Anyone answer that question who has actually watched the Pistons for the past 4 seasons? Obviously " Locked On Pistons " debate hasn't bothered to see by watching games as to why Duren replaced Stewart in the starting lineup. Remember why Beef Stew Was forced to change positions for him to get playing time?

It seems that regardless of what has happened in the past some people insist that Stewart is actually a strong NBA center either starting, coming off the bench or now being a closer at that position. What would the opposing team's coach do if Beef Stew came off the bench in crunch time? Maybe just maybe could or would a non sleeping coach actually insert a big center into the lineup? Most teams have two of those big centers. Only in very limited situations should Stewart ever play center. Stewart could play defense on a guard on the perimeter or even a small forward. But it has been proven many times that opponents score easily if Stewart has to guard the paint in crunch time. It is unfair to ask Stewart to be humiliated by current NBA big men who are so much bigger than Stewart.

I worry about this old idea whenever I see it in writing because it just could be that the Piston front office is thinking of counting on Stewart to back up or even close games playing center. If they do that then the Pistons will once again be the worst team in the NBA. There will only be the front office to blame now. Lack of size or ability to play defense in the paint by our centers has killed the Pistons chances for many years. Imagine when the Timberwolves come to Detroit or almost any NBA team that has properly filled the center and power forward positions with big athletic players. I thought that now that Weaver is gone we would never have to witness the ass kickings the Pistons have endured so many times. why would anyone be worrying about shooting percentages of our guards and small forwards when this basic obvious team weakness remains? Our new President of operations must be smarter than he is showing at this time but other NBA teams are licking their chops now when they see the Pistons on their schedule. He failed to draft a potentially franchise center in this past draft and instead selected a project wing. Obviously he over estimated his ability to secure a solid BIG CENTER to could actually take up space on defense and defend against BIG CENTERS. Duren is small compared to most successful NBA big men. He struggles defending opponent centers because Duren is not as tall or as wide as opposing centers plus he is still very young and lost a year relating to defense because of the previous coaching staff and Durens own decision to slack off on getting back on defense quickly. Our only chance to winning will be if Duren can stay out of foul trouble ( something he could not do last season ) and is 25% stronger and in 50% better shape. The back up center from Philly is also small for an NBA center but we have to hope he can become an elite defender like Ben Wallace. Maybe he will be a sleeper and a big game hunter on defense for the Pistons next year. Why would Piston management maybe be leaking stories about Stewart being the primary Center backup. The only reason has to be that Piston management over estimated the trade value Beef Stew might have been before they made their draft pick. That is scary as it shows that the new management failed to do the necessary work reviewing Piston game film from past seasons to actually know where the biggest weaknesses relating to defense were when they took over. Other NBA teams will not part with centers who dominate against teams like the Pistons. That is why it is incredible to me that the Pistons passed on the UCONN center who has the potential to become a really solid interior defenders and defensive rebounders especially in crunch time in the current NBA. Ben Wallace was the key player who changed the Pistons from the silly soft Teal team to a kick ass and take names Piston team that every fan loves.

[coolbreeze2]

You can fool some people all of the time. People in the media know that and unfortunately a lot of people really don't want to know any facts. My hope is now that Cade has that big extension he will finally get more excited about winning games than building stats. Stats really seldom tells the real story about why some teams win and so many keep on losing year after year. Take the Olympics for example. The Pistons added Fournier who played for France in the Olympics. Why was it that this player struggled while in a Piston uniform yet played so well for many seasons in the NBA and then again this summer against NBA All Star players? Did anyone see how the point guard for France set up Fournier for so many mid range and 3 point uncontested shots? Why couldn't Cade apparently has been anointed as the Pistons point guard for the rest of his career. But did Isiah Thomas play the game like Cade? Did Zele dribble the ball up the court walking and then after getting past half court start looking for a lane so he could get his shot. If he was doubled then at the end of the shot clock some unlucky teammate would get his pass and have to shoot a contested shot. Then at the end of the season that shot taker would be identified as a problem because his shooting percentage was lower than other top NBA 2 guards or small forwards. Am I blaming Cade for all of those miserable loses last season. No it is up to the head coach to be the person in charge not one player. Williams made a dumb mistake by not setting up a structured offense for a young team. Because neither the head coach or his assistant coaches watched much game film from the previous season when Ivey was point guard they all agreed that Killian Hayes would be the perfect point guard for Cade to operate as the off ball shooter. Cade was playing 2 guard which was a smart thing. When that stupid experiment didn't work then coach Williams allowed Cade to play his one man game. There was no offense. Opposing teams could rest on defense because of total lack of movement off the ball. Did any player actually want to catch a pass in a bailout situation at the end of the shot clock and ruin their shooting percentages? Of course Cade committed an incredible amount of turnovers in the 2nd half of games too which further destroyed any sense of good team chemistry on offense which then affected the defense in a bad way.

I hope expect our new coaching staff to end this nonsense yet I keep reading stuff from the experts that Cade is for sure an All Star point guard and his teammates really let him down last season. Poor Cade don't you feel sorry for him? The head coach has to be in charge. An offense needs to be created to help all the players become successful NBA players and maybe start winning games. When you see a player like Fournier in the Olympics and then watch game film of him trying to figure out how he could be successful in a Piston uniform then the truth comes out. Somebody except Cade should have been getting good shots this season. Cade should be learning how to play off the ball where he could really be much more effective as a chemistry builder. He gets the ball off the first pass and draws a double team. The coach actually has his team work on plays off the situation and Cade becomes a low turnover player who accumulates mega assists. He also is fresh relating to energy and will shoot at a higher percentage and become a better defender. This change is key to the Pistons becoming an exciting team next year. Otherwise we will see Tobias Harris struggling like Fournier did along with everyone else last season. Becoming a leader requires some sacrifice. We will find out who Cade Cunningham really is next season.

[coolbreeze2]

Every opposing team Detroit faced last season attacked the paint with success. Interior paint defense was the biggest issue of all. Lack of effort from Piston centers and power forwards where opposing centers and power forwards beat ours in transition allowed opponents to score in the paint easily. When you have a weakness and do nothing to change then expect to lose over 20 games in a row. Do not be surprised. The Piston's coaching staff never changed a thing last season to stop this glaring problem. I watched it happen When Piston centers and power forwards didn't get back on defense. Also when they were actually in the paint they would make huge mistakes when calling for switches which put smaller players on opposing big men.So I hope the new coaching staff is not listening to stupidity from professional writers who keep hyping this idiotic subject that Jaden Ivey is the cause of every problem. Jaden Ivey might not reach his full potential this coming season. Few players his age do who eventually end up being great. Jaden has the potential to become a great player. Wouldn't it be stupid to put pressure on him now? The previous head coach made Ivey the patsy from day one. It worked and is still working even though that coach was fired.

The Big Lie. Of course the people who watched the Piston games or opposing coaches never believed Ivey was the problem. They believed the Piston head coach took the year off. Cade Cunningham took on too much and turned the ball over too much, did not make his teammates better and missed way to many shots he should not have taken in the 4th quarter of Piston games. And then there was that glaring issue where our power forwards and centers did not know or want to learn how to play effective defense including figuring out when to call a switch on defense. Jaden Ivey should have spent last season playing a lot of minutes at point guard instead of Sasser. Coach Williams wanted to prove Ivey was not worth crap so he brought him off the bench and made him stand on the baseline beyond the 3 point line and used him as the last option on the Piston stupid offensive system. Ivey came off the bench without a complaint because he has a dream of winning a championship someday while playing for the Pistons. Unlike many draftees, Ivey really wanted to be a Piston. Williams needed a patsy or someone to blame as to why his team could not win before any regular season game was played. The coach loved Killian Hayes. Ivey stood in the way so the coaching staff leaked fake negative statements about Ivey. But what the people who just read social media didn't see was that Ivey accepted his limited role and made something of it when he came into every game. He didn't stand in the corner. Ivey figured out how to become and effective player without the ball in his hands. This is something Cade needs to learn this season. The Pistons cannot win with a one man show. Ivey breaks down defenses with his speed and ability to pass the ball and also score in the paint. I also recall Ivey making 7 or 8 three point shots in a row in one game. There are a lot of areas where ivey needs to improve for sure like limiting turnovers and improving his on ball defense yet Ivey was actually one of the better defenders on a team that had very few average defenders especially Cade.

I would like the fans to really appreciate and pull for Jaden Ivey's success this season. Iet him know you have his back. How refreshing would that be maybe. Think long term like 3 years from now if we can get a management team that are not just numbers guys who plot out a strategy that will always keep Detroit in the basement by giving up on players too soon. Our new President should have known that the Pistons needed a center or a bigger power forward. A really good center who just had helped his team win an NCAA championship was available at the 5th position in the draft. How about instead of fans thinking about Ivey's flaws, why not demand that the new President tell everyone why he didn't know that the biggest weakness for the Pistons for several years has been interior paint defense or lack of a rim protector-rebounder etc. Incredible that instead he drafted a wing when we already drafted a similar player the previous year to fill that role. I was not impressed especially knowinfg that Stewart will be coming back as a back up center when Detroit needs more size. It might take our new number one draft pick 5 years to become n effective NBA player. He will be 23 years old then. No worries about the lack of sized ability at power forward and center right? Did Ivey make that draft selection too?

[Sparma]

If Ivey becomes an able PG, we're in good shape; if Cade doesn't become a very good PG (or PF) we're in bad shape. Keeping Cade at guard facilitates a smaller dynamic guard to flourish next to him. Had thought that might be Sasser, but have lost some faith in him. Still see Ivey heading the second unit as his best chance of success.

[Sparma]

Used to like him. Too old and too expensive now.

[Go Stones!]

What would it take to get Vucivic the center from the Bulls? I think that would be a perfect age and player to push Duren. It appears after Markenenin signs his contract it will push Utah to having no extra money. Detroit will have the only money available without going over. They still have 10M and 1 position left.

Would you trade Stew for Vucivic straight up? Who says no? What would make it more fair?

[Phil-Good]

This is a make it or break it season for Ivey.

In my opinion Ivey is a poor man Westbrook.

You can't remove Cade from the PG position. That's his super power! A big PG. Think Grant Hill/Penny Hardaway just slower..

I would give this Ivey experiment 30 games maximum. If Ivey doesn't show major improvement, I'm looking to move him for Draft capital or maybe Jalen Green if Houston is stupid! Or Simons in Portland.

People ask me what the Pistons record will be. You just can't call it because of trades and what not. I look for 40 wins or Lottery.

[coolbreeze2]

I know I’m the only one of this opinion, so I will post this one last time and then shut up.  But if I were the Head Coach, my rotation would be:

Ivey, Sasser
Hardaway Jr, Ausar, Beasley
Cunningham, Beasley, Holland, Klintman 
Harris, Reed, Holland, Klintman 
Duran, Stewart

Ivey would run the point, Cade would play off the ball, all of our promising young players would get minutes to develop, and we would relay heavily on Harris, Hardaway and Beasley for veteran leadership and outside shooting.  

Now, back to your regularly scheduled rotations….

Not so Murph! Your suggested rotation system makes the most sense. But logic and reason seldom rules in Piston Land. Media alleged experts keep hyping Cade Cunningham as a future All Star point guard. He can make the All Star team faster if he plays off the ball with Ivey's speed and decision making skill set being implemented to break down the defense. The same writers ponder which trade idea works best relating to removing Ivey from the Piston team. Jaden should read all that crap and use it to prove all of those idiots wrong.

[Murph]

I know I’m the only one of this opinion, so I will post this one last time and then shut up.  But if I were the Head Coach, my rotation would be:

Ivey, Sasser
Hardaway Jr, Ausar, Beasley
Cunningham, Beasley, Holland, Klintman 
Harris, Reed, Holland, Klintman 
Duran, Stewart

Ivey would run the point, Cade would play off the ball, all of our promising young players would get minutes to develop, and we would relay heavily on Harris, Hardaway and Beasley for veteran leadership and outside shooting.  

Now, back to your regularly scheduled rotations….

[coolbreeze2]

Why is it that fans and maybe people within the Piston organization seem to need to put the blame on young players who play skill positions in the backcourt? Detroit has lacked a good backcourt for many years. Now the team has some talented players who need lots of experience before they can put it all together. It is very difficult to become an all star player if you have a weak front court. Remember Brandon Knight who was a good pick and roll player but had Greg Monroe and Jason Maxiell playing in the front court. Everyone said Monroe would be an All Star if he had a better point guard to play with. When he moved on from the Pistons nothing improved with Monroe. He could post up well. But he was too slow to run the pick and roll play and his defense was not good enough when games were on the line in the 4th quarter. Yet fans and the ugly people within the Piston organization had to blame someone so it was Brandon Knight. Joe Dumars needed to replace Jason Maxiell to make things work if he kept Monroe. So Joe was maybe happy that nobody was pointing fingers at him.

Why I bring up the past should be obvious to every fan who has watched the Pistons since Ben Wallace retired. Detroit has had the worst front court in the NBA for so long it is silly. Unless Duren improves his defense 50% this coming season how can anyone expect Detroit will not be the worst team in the league again. Duren's problem last season was that he could not stay on the floor in many games because he committed stupid fouls in the first 6 minutes of too many games. When he expended more energy on defense he committed more fouls. So he started slacking on defense and in transition where he was Often the last man back on defense. Opposing teams knew that so their centers would sprint back on offense when our Piston players would settle for contested 3 point shots. I hate the team " That guy is a 3 and D player we can use". How stupid is that statement? You need to be able to make shots in the paint or inside the free throw line or you can't win games. Has Durn developed a mid range jump shot/ Has he been given the opportunity to shoot that shot in games? The answer is no way with Casey or Williams. Can Duren execute the pick and roll play? YES! Then why didn't either Casey or Williams emphasize Duren's abilities in that area? This coaching staff needs to turn Duren into an All Star player who can stay out of foul trouble, block shots, get key rebounds and still average 14-20 points a game. Is that likely going to happen with such a young player as Duren? No it isn't but eventually Duren can become upper level as he develops with players like Cade, Ivey and Thompson. They are all so young. This year will be their first season having a good head coach and assistant coaches. No pressure should be on them to make the playoffs. It takes time but in the end could mean a championship coming in Detroit. It would have been really great if the Pistons had drafted the center out of UCONN. The combination of Duren and that guy I won't mention again developing with the young backcourt could have been incredible.

I do not see any of the players who played in the summer league games making Pistons rotation this fall. Our number one pick does not have good enough court awareness on defense, cannot stay in front of his assigned man well enough, and for sure is not in good enough physical shape yet not to hurt the team on defense. Hunter can fly down the court in transition but his overall game is very primitive at this point in time. I think he is a quick learner though and will be receptive to coaching. Once he gets stronger and in better physical and mental condition the sky is the limit for him. Just concentrate on becoming a lock down defender and rebounder first and then on offense create the mental toughness to avoid turnovers on offense. It is very simple for players who actually listen to their coaches to become successful especially if you have a body like Hunter.

Klintman is in the same boat as our number one pick. He needs to become more aware of where his teammates are on the court before he launches the 3 point shot. Missing those quick long range shots kills a team's chances of winning games. He needs to get stronger and in much better physical condition then he is in now to become effective in regular season games. But I like him a lot and expect he will eventually shine for the Pistons.

[coolbreeze2]

I can't help but appreciate this young man's attitude. Thinking about his size, what will he look like by the time is is 21? His ball handling skill surprised me. He has great quickness. Holland had a lot of rust being he has not played much going into the summer games. I really li9e who he is as a person. He has big goals and is known to be a really hard worker. I am going to switch gears and pull for Ron reach his full potential which might amazing. No pressure this season. Develop the jump shot and acquire the ability to avoid turnovers. Become a strong defender and rebounder first and keep moving forward in a positive way young man. Go Piatons!

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