Bad Boys What You Gonna Do

[Fennis Dembo]

Isiah Thomas and Bill Laimbeer wreak havoc in the Big Apple

Thomas:  Bill, how would you like to come work for me?
Laimbeer:  Doing what?
Thomas: Coaching my WNBA team in New York.
Laimbeer:  I think you're pulling my leg and yanking my chain.  Is it April Fools Day?
Thomas: Why?
Laimbeer: After you were sued for sexual harassment when you were with the Knicks,  why would anybody in their right freakin' mind put you in charge of a women's team?  

Thomas:  My good looks and charm are irresistible and bitches be crazy.  
Laimbeer: I am totally amazed. Some women think misogyny is your middle name.  The entire situation is dripping with irony.  It is off the charts, but then again we had an earthquake in Michigan Saturday, so I guess anything is possible.
Thomas: Ah, everyone has a past.   Look, you are experienced and just the man to whip these lanky skanks into basketball shape.

Laimbeer: Your point is well taken.  I am the king of changing lanky skanks from whiners into winners.
Thomas: Unlike me you don't let the personal stuff get in the way of the professional stuff.  The last coach was too busy trying to be everyone's friend instead of a hard ass.  He thought they just wanted to be treated like princesses.
Laimbeer: That won't be a problem with me.  I'm not a people person.
Thomas: No, sir, you are a natural world class rat bastard.  The fans in Boston still hate your guts to this very day.  Sometimes I think you should be the Grand Marshall of the Jerk Parade.
   
Laimbeer:  Let's talk turkey. I need  to be compensated generously for living in the Big Nasty.  The rent and the rats are much larger than Detroit's, not too mention  the weekly de-lousing  fees.
Thomas:   Consider it done.   I'll even throw in a pocket language translator.  Ninety per cent of the people here barely speak English and good luck finding a cab driver that's bi-lingual.   It's the goofiest ass thing. You'd have an easier time catching a cab in downtown Baghdad.
Laimbeer: I'm in like Flynn.  I enjoy being among the dregs of society.  I find it exhilarating looking down on them figuritively and literally while strolling through their toxic fart clouds.

Thomas:  Bill, you've convinced me you are the perfect coach for this motley bunch of banshees.
Laimbeer: Can I count on you to cover my ass through the tough times?
Thomas: Taking a page from Tom Brady,  I'll be somewhat aware of what you are doing about half the time.
Laimbeer: And I'm convinced that you my friend will be the best damn boss I ever had  and you are just one small step away from another mega-bucks sexual harassment suit.  

Thomas:   We'll be the biggest hit on Broadway since "Kinky Boots".   Game night will always be a gala event attended by celebrities,  snobs, pretenders,  wannabes, and sullen lesbians not the fun kind like Ellen.   It will be just like those pretentious art and fashion shows.  Basketball in Gotham will never be the same.
Laimbeer: Maybe we could get Bruce Jenner and Gilbert Gottfried front row season tickets.  Who knows, they could be a steady couple by next season.
Thomas : Amen and what, what!

-------

https://detroitsportstalk.forumotion.com/viewtopic.forum?t=147

[merc]

Anyone know where game logs can be found for the major overseas draft candidates may be found.

It concerns me that we look at guys who's averages scream DORMANT instead of DOMINANT.

LP, haven't looked in a while but these game stats have been with Eurobasket & http://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players

[merc]

There is another by product of the rising CAP!

Players that would normally be on the market, won't leave their teams, but more importantly, teams won't have the need to clear space to keep them!

They know that even if they have to exceed the luxury tax threshold, it's a one time hit that they can easily absorb for one season!

Sadly, this also limits our ability to sign FA's for many reasons, and gives FA's like Monroe fairly broad opportunities to get the max from many different sources.

Since the max is all he can get, he can select from the many teams that can't get the bigger names, and choose his destination.

While we do have a small advantage over other teams, IMO, it's not worth(nor is he worth) us exercising it!

OC, yeah, I'm not sure this has sunk in yet... there's a strong possibility that several FAs get advice from their agents to sign the best short term deal with the team that holds their bird rights... then cash in later... I think this is why Monroe has been saying the Pistons are still high on his list.

[deusXango]

After careful consideration and some honest thinking, I feel that Mario Hezonja and Kristaps Porzingis are "fools gold," and it would be a big mistake on the Pistons part to take a chance on either one of them.

I've been on this site, beating the Frank Kaminsky drum for the longest, but his NBA limitations far outweigh his ability to improve as a top flight PF, and that's what we should be looking for at #8. I was wrong in thinking he'd be okay for #8 (emotionally I just want Monroe gone/replaced with a better fit).

It's a damn shame we've only got one first round draft pick, one second rounder, and a slew of players who really have no substantial trade value, so with the 8th pick (if we don't move) I'm going after the best player who's sure to be on the board; Stanley Johnson, or if he's gone, Trey Lyles. IMHO those are the two best players in America who, at least one of them, will be available from 8-10.

If there's such a thing as "the basketball gods" we'll know their favor if we can somehow parlay Jodie Meeks and Brandon Jennings off for Trey Lyles after drafting Stanley Johnson; I wouldn't worry about the need for veteran leadership, "because rookies don't make an impact on the game," because of the young legs, fresh faces, and the elite collegiate credentials they'll bring to the Pistons, we'll be competitive. Last I checked we were rebuilding, not contending yet.

[Oracle]

There is another by product of the rising CAP!

Players that would normally be on the market, won't leave their teams, but more importantly, teams won't have the need to clear space to keep them!

They know that even if they have to exceed the luxury tax threshold, it's a one time hit that they can easily absorb for one season!

Sadly, this also limits our ability to sign FA's for many reasons, and gives FA's like Monroe fairly broad opportunities to get the max from many different sources.

Since the max is all he can get, he can select from the many teams that can't get the bigger names, and choose his destination.

While we do have a small advantage over other teams, IMO, it's not worth(nor is he worth) us exercising it!

[lemonpen]

Anyone know where game logs can be found for the major overseas draft candidates may be found.

It concerns me that we look at guys who's averages scream DORMANT instead of DOMINANT.

[Murph]

I agree with you and Don that Stanley Johnson could be a real stud type SF in the NBA. He reminds me a little of Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, only with a jump shot. Johnson could be that defensive stopper at SF that we haven't had since....Dennis Rodman? (I guess Prince was a good defender in his prime.)

Not sure about Frank Kaminsky. Everyone is always looking for the next Dirk Nowitzki, but no one every finds him. I think Kaminsky will be a serviceable PF in the NBA, but he'll probably turn out to be closer to Andre Bargnani than Dirk Nowitzki.

And isn't Rakeem Christmas a steal in the 2nd round?

[Oracle]

This draft could not be any simpiler for the Pistons.  Take one of the obvious choices...Stanley Johnson, Kelly Oubre or Trey Lyles.

We don't need to be taking another crap shoot on another freaking Euro.  It's not as if Euros ever, ever work out in Detroit.

While I wouldn't ignore any Euro, and SVG has had some success with one, I totally agree, with your choices.

I would still keep Frank Kaminsky on the list if Stanley Johnson isn't there, but it's simple and IMO, SVG just wanted an excuse to take his family on a trip to Europe!

Johnson is just a plain out STUD in the mold, at least physically, of LeBron & Carmelo, and we can only hope that he can get half as good!

Kaminsky is a bit more of a gamble because he's fairly slow, like Monroe, but he shoots better!

[Murph]

If SVG does go after him, that would setup a competition with KCP at SG for all the marbles, because he's NOT a SF as I thought, but a SG(6'6)!

I just found this more recent footage of him, and it's rather impressive! He's a lot more athletic than I thought, and I'd be shocked if he doesn't do well in the NBA in a few years! Yeah, he's a bit cocky, but IMO, you need a bit of that if you want to play with the big boys! In short, I won't crap my drawers anymore if SVG were to draft him.

Take a look.

Oracle I am not convinced at all. This is a pipe dream at best. He currently comes off the bench playing Euro basketball. He is known as a horrible defender. Remember Darko who scouts said could stretch the floor? There are a lot of really solid college players who are extremely athletic in this draft. Most of those players have been forced to show that they can fit into a system and hold their own on defense. The power forward Stan Van Gundy is looking at is also a high risk type player who will take years to develop because he can't defend a fly. The NBA teams that are stocked with amazing talent can take big risks but the Detroit Pistons lack proven talent at every position with the exception of possibly point guard. If Stan Van Gundy is looking for the number one overall pick in 2016 then go ahead and waste this first pick.

Isn't it interesting that Van Gundy is looking for a Euro player who currently comes off the bench and has a history of being a inept defender. He is the kind of player who would have to sit the bench if the Pistons did ever make the playoffs. Meanwhile, Van Gundy traded Kyle Singler who has NBA experience, plays effective defense and shot the 3 point shot better than any other Piston player at over 40%. If you are the Piston's GM and you know that your current players as a group are among the worst defensive players in the league, how in hell would you consider another player who can't hold his own in Euro basketball? Does Van Gundy believe that Stanley Johnson will be drafted before the 8th pick? I believe that will happen. Teams who draft before Detroit will be crazy to gamble on either of those Euro players Van Gundy is currently considering. If that happens, then we should take a proven college star like Kaminsky or his teammate who plays small forward. As I watch the playoffs it is clear that there is no place for soft lazy minded players who have a history of playing like crap on the defensive end. Would Van Gundy draft Daye if he were in the draft this year? I am losing my respect for this entire organization at the thought that this Piston brain trust could be so far in left field after watching how this Piston team lost so many games this past season. We lost because of weak big minded big men who played defense worse than Jason Maxiell.

Right now I would trade every Piston player with the exception of Drummond, Pope and Jackson. Give all of them away for Matt Barnes. That is how far this organization has fallen. We have no proven player who we can say is better at his position than most other NBA players who start for their teams. We have three players with potential. All the rest are either too old or have no potential to hold their own on defense while being spotty at best on offense. They are all fringe players. Adding another fringe player is beyond insane and just the thought that Van Gundy would travel to Europe to take a look knowing what experts already know about the individual history those two players Have established leaves me with the thought that nothing has changed in Piston land. We are doomed to watching a team that lives in the bowels of the NBA. Detroit will still be known as a NBA destination that is equal to Siberia in Russia. A place where no solid NBA player wants to go because he will be playing with soft minded lazy ass players who have no chance to win because they can't or won't play tough defense.

This draft could not be any simpiler for the Pistons.  Take one of the obvious choices...Stanley Johnson, Kelly Oubre or Trey Lyles.

We don't need to be taking another crap shoot on another freaking Euro.  It's not as if Euros ever, ever work out in Detroit.

[WTF]

I hate trends and popularity contest as much as I hate hype and projected potential. I can only imagine that as a owner that not only would I want to make a profit but also win and compete by putting the best group of players on the floor as possible. My product has to be equally as important to me as making a profit would be.

As an owner I would forgo the popularity of a player and dig deeper into the substance and character of players as it relates playing fundamentally sound basketball and hard work ethics. While I would love to have a team filled with extremely athletic players I would love for them not be as dumb as rocks with little or no basketball IQ.

I want players like Big Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman, and love a player like Josh Smith there's nothing wrong with having a wild card type player on your team, but I understand the importance of having soldiers, worker bees that follow instructions to detail as boring as it seems. The Spurs have had worker bees and soldiers and it worked and they stuck with program and at one time when you look at both our championship teams under 2 very strong coaches so did we. Now we're busy trying to keep up with the rest of the league and chase the hype that ESPN provides us.

Honestly I would take a team filled with a bunch of white players that can't jump, with 4 years of college fundamentals, not interested in social media and making Top 10 on ESPN over all the athleticism of some dummy that can't properly defend a pick and roll or box out when rebounding. Not being racist but I was hard press to come up with white big men that can't shoot FT's but every time you look up it's another hack a black big field day a team is having on a Jordan, Drummond or so on.

I think we have one of the worst teams in the league when it comes to fundamentals and, work ethics. I wasn't a big fan of Singler but I also know that if I put him on a team with players of equal intelligence his role would have been more meaningful. He could have been the next Larry Bird not saying that he is but it wouldn't have made a difference on a team full of dummies because these team would have had the best players scratching their head in befuddlement. I think Tayshuan came up with the best word in the last 10 years to describe what we've been seeing and that word is buffoonery.

Buffoonery from Joe Dumars, Mr. Davidson, Gores, Van Gundy, with the number of inept coaches, wasted draft picks, trades and free agent signings, the misuse of players and so on it's no wonder we're 12 years removed from a title. Both our championship teams were really built off of trades and free agency and not the draft even though we drafted some key players Thomas was the only true superstar but the team won by putting pieces in place so that he could excel. We need to get back to making smart meaningful and purposeful acquisitions of players so that everything fits and serve as a piece to becoming champions. Stop trying to make players into things they're not, stop putting all your marble into a bag potential, and stop following the rest of the league and do what has always worked in the past.

This Is My Moaning For The Day!

[cool breeze]

As we watch the playoffs, we see some outstanding individual plays on both defense and offense by real NBA players. Washington for example decided to crash and burn and then rebuild with the top college players available. That meant that the owner had to decide to do whatever was necessary to get the team in position to draft as high as possible. Meanwhile Joe Dumars had no plan at all. He tore apart a winning team that could have competed well for at least one more season. Then what happened? After Jason Maxiell was embarrassed in the Pistons last playoff appearance against Cleveland, he continued to promote players like Maxiell as a solid building pieces for his future team. Instead of concentrating on signing young promising athletic players who had a chance of becoming more than specialists or situational players. But for the life of me, I cannot figure out what if any actual plan Joe had created to improve the Pistons. He didn't draft badly with a few exceptions considering the Pistons draft positions over the years but anyone knows you cannot stock an entire team full of extremely incompetent defenders. and if you are a small market team, you cannot built a winning team unless you get your team in position to draft within the top 3. Meanwhile teams like Washington draft players like Wall, Beal and Porter. They are real athletes. To prove that Dumars had no plan we only have to recall the bogus trade involving Ben Gordon. Or the incredible trade involving Knight and Middleton. We miss out on a high pick in a strong draft while at the same time giving away two players that the Pistons were extremely lucky to get the opportunity to draft. We needed guards who could defend but Dumars didn't recognize that he had two guards who fit that profile or even worse Joe didn't realize that the guards he had signed with the exception of Knight and Middleton were among the worst in the entire NBA.

As of now we have a team full of fringe players, two older players and three young gifted project type players. Our project players are Jackson, Pope and Drummond. None of the three are complete players who have every aspect of the game down yet so they can lead others. The 3 have potential and this is better than nothing but the surrounding cast of players leaves little doubt as to what is going to happen relating to winning and losing next season. So the way I see it the best chance to improve the Pistons might be if Joe Dumars does get that new GM job he is rumored to be in the running for this week. If that happens perhaps Joe might trade with the Pistons and if that happens, we are guaranteed of a positive result. I like the fact that Stan Van Gundy is working hard and wants to create a winning plan for success. The organization is much stronger for sure and my thought is that if the 3 project players mentioned earlier do not work out, Stan might have to tank big time to get on the right track and at least snag one young superior player to start his rebuild. However, the 3 project players, if they have any brains at all should be working their asses off this summer so they can come back and make their mark in the NBA to eliminate any thought that they might not actually be as good as we hope they will become. If Pope comes back as a guy who allows his man to blow by him for layups or shoots the ball inconsistently again, or Jackson continues to be turnover prone, or Drummond continues to blow rotations, shuffles instead of runs back on defense, fails to become an effective shot blocker and continues to be the worst free throw shooter in the NBA then we must start over. This next season is going to tell us everything we need to know about those 3 players that have the potential to lead the Pistons to the promise land. We will also find out a lot about Stan Van Gundy as to what kind of new players he brings in to help those 3 players become more successful.

[cool breeze]

Who has been one of the best leaders in the playoffs so far? That is right Piston fans - MATT BARNES. I knew that Paul and Griffin were the big money players so I took a peek at what Doc Rivers pays the over achieving Matt Barnes. I thought his salary would be over 5 mil but no this is the last year of his contract and he is making very little compared to what he is providing for his team. Remember Stuckey and Charlie V who were bench players for the Pistons but made over 8 mil a season and took up most of the Piston money? Matt Barnes is a starter on the Clippers and has been one of the team's key players so far. He was outstanding against the Spurs and last night he was the guy who was fighting for his team in many ways be it with his play or challenging the officials. Stan Van Gundy needs to find sleeper players like Barnes. Houston has Jason Terry who at age 38 has been a really good player on both ends of the floor. Again, Terry came off the bench at Arizona for 3 years and his forte was playing great defense. His senior season Terry was PAC10 player of the year as a starter. He brought good fundamentals with him when he entered the NBA and kept working to improve. When I think again at Stuckey and Charlie V I cannot recall either player ever making a statement that they need to work harder to improve the way they played. Stuckey had real ability but advised that he was content to come off the bench. If you make 8.5 mil then you have to be a leader. Stuckey just blended in and for sure he was a nice guy on and off the court. Charlie was another matter. He was a sandbagger all the way. He milked the Pistons for all Joe was worth. He had a nice contract and didn't have to run the court hard so he didn't. We we Piston fans had to watch that crap for years.

Now I sense that many Piston fans are becoming former Piston fans. That is the way it is for many of my friends who live in Michigan. I have to tell them what is going on with the team. They don't get pissed off. They don't care. They don't care because too many Piston teams were stocked with losers who were not only lazy but mentally challenged players. Just show up and get the pay check and let the fans think whatever they want to think. How dare anyone challenge their talent. There will be some severe tweets about you can count on it. Our flat out players didn't care enough.

That leads me to Greg Monroe and how disappointed I am with his work ethic in the off season. He traveling to Africa last summer. What did he do before that? For sure he never thought at all about what exercises relating to conditioning he could do to get himself in better shape so he could run the court and keep up with the player he was supposed to guard. Just how hard did he work to become a good power forward? How many mid range jump shots did he take over the past 2 years in practice during the off season? This past season, Greg gave his best overall effort but he made it in his contract year which should be a big red flag for any team interested in a big man. What is he doing now? He he working at his game? What part of his game is he working on? I doubt it is defense. I say that because Brandon Knight talked to the press after his rookie season and said he had a lot of work to do. He admitted that he was an inferior defensive player. So Brandon worked 12 to 14 hours a day all summer long on conditioning, defensive posture, how to best get over a screen or help with a trap and how to position himself on every critical location on the floor. He worked on stopping dribble penetration and boxing out his man after a shot attempt. This type of work is extremely difficult and painful. This is the same work that Michael Jordan completed before Chicago became a championship caliber team. You can bet that last summer Matt Barnes was out there at his age doing the things that Knight has learned to do. If Stan Van Gundy adds more players who have no will power to put in the necessary work to become a good all around players, the owner is going to lose many more fans after this next season. If this first round pick is a dud player who will always be known as a limited specialist and weak defender then I might just drop off the bandwagon as well. We need smarter decisions and a real plan for the future and Van Gundy needs to share that vision with the fans. Van Gundy cannot afford to bring in one more sub standard defensive player. If he does, I have lost all respect for both the owner and Van Gundy.

[Oracle]

"I'm generally not big into conspiracy theories, but Jack McCloskey to this day is convinced there was an anti-Pistons sentiment that emanated from basketball circles of power, both official and unofficial. He told me once about attending the NBA league meetings in the aftermath of the '89 Finals. In the hotel lobby, adorned by signage to acknowledge the season just past, were a couple of life-size cardboard cutouts of NBA players. Those cutouts in the past had always saluted the champions.

This time? Isiah? Joe D? Dennis Rodman or Bill Laimbeer?

Nope. Magic Johnson and Larry Bird, stars of the teams the Pistons had stepped over to win it all after getting robbed of the '88 title by a phantom foul call on Laimbeer. Incensed, McCloskey got no real explanation for it when he confronted a stammering league official.
 
The results of awards balloting the greatest Pistons teams amid the greatest NBA era were accorded sure makes it look like Trader Jack was on to something there." - Curry's stellar season rewarded, but it wasn't that way 25 years ago for the Bad Boys

[lemonpen]

Potential Super Star: These are the Kobe, Lebron, Tim Duncans and MJ, Magic, Bird and Zeke just to name a handful or few that you looked at and can undoubtedly refer to as Super Stars.  By no stretch of the imagination can you say not a one was deserving of a Max Contract.  Super Stars are  top 50 all time greats, or real close.  12+ All Star appearances.  They win Ships.  Should always be highest paid.

Potential All Star:  IMO you start thinking of players like CP3, Carmelo, Gasol, KD, Harden and D-Rose and so on. In most cases you could argue Max Contract some of these guys maybe even all of the time.  These player tend to have large amount of impact on a team success and often bring or have fan appeal as well sell out arenas.  All Stars.  Leaders on lesser teams.  Finals runner-ups.  Many of whom are NBA Statistical leaders.  Fully complementary to the Super Star.   Many are amoung highest paid.  Some are young up and comers and are still on rookie contracts.


Potential Great Player:   Not Greatest Players!  These player tend to fall some where in between Potential All Star and Good Players and IMO are always on the cusp of getting a Max Deal.  Players like Affalo, Josh Smith, Z-Bo, Ginobli, Marc Gasol, etc.   There's no issue about the amount of talent they have just a matter of systematically fitting on a team.   Great Players but clearly second bananas.  May have as many as 3 or 5 All Star appearances.  Boarderline Max players.  JMO but Manu should be moved up one notch.

Potential Good Player:  Under no circumstance are these guys worth Max Contracts.   IMO this is what we have a team full of right now and their pay should reflect their level of play and impact.   Moose is potentially a good player and likely will never be a great player because of his poor work ethics and laziness of defense, hell I'll toss in having no mid range game.  Sadly because there are no established standards of excellence anymore, no longer a process of growth his sorry ass might get a Max Contract.  Wannabees.  This isn't a category.  It's just everyone else.  Some are  paid well as a result of being in the right place at the right time, ie role playing free agents leaving championship teams.  The rest get in where they fit in regarding the CAP.

In the case of Knight while I think he is more deserving of a bigger pay day than a player like Moose, even Reggie Jackson BTW who won't be getting a Max Contract but paid well.   Being the best player on a team really doesn't count for much unless your the best player on a contending team and threatening to when titles.   It counts for plenty because the NBA salary FLOOR dictates that somebody gets paid.  You have to be real careful with players like Knight I agree that his work ethics and leadership puts him slightly ahead of many Good Players but you don't want to over pay them.

All in all we agree.  Max deals and near max deals are too plentiful in todays league.  There used to be a time when undeserved large paydays were openly ridiculed.

[cool breeze]

@Wise - I'm not going to argue with what you said because I feel mostly the same way. Unfortunately, times have changed, and my comments are more focused on what is, not what I wished they would be. But we've seen how undervalued hard workers are in this league, while flashy less fundamentally sound players get fat contracts based on the hope that they will blow up at some point.

IMO, I just think the salary of average players has risen, but that the salary of the super stars will jump even more crazy when the CAP rises, and it will all be equalized. Remember that all of what you're talking about is RELATIVE, not absolute, so if the Knights & Monroe's payday rises, so does the LeBron's etc.

@Don - You said, "We have no athletic big man who can block shots and play outstanding defense in the paint. We have nothing!".

While watching the Clippers, who are just barely, IMO, learning how to be mentally tough, play the Rockets who aren't mentally tough, I was shocked as to what was going through my mind watching DeAndre Jordan defend Howard!

Shocked because I never thought I would think or say this, but DAMN, I wish Andre Drummond could play this well defensively!

Jordan has made HUGE strides under Doc Rivers on both ends of the floor. He still shoots FT's poorly, 2nd from the absolute bottom, and of course we have that cellar dweller. Drummond should be ashamed to be the absolute worst at anything, but especially when the worst is a mark of excellence so low!

On SVG, I've been one of his greatest critics as a GM, and will continue to call his moves as I see them, but he was a rookie and I expected some bumps in the road because he also hadn't filled out his staff!

I still think he deserves some space to make his moves with some benefit of the doubt, and judge him on the results. To be honest, Ben Wallace & Chucky Atkins in the Grant Hill S&T didn't make a resounding sound anywhere in the league or public.

I'm sure SVG will make more mistakes, but hopefully he makes some good moves as well. BTW, I wouldn't draft either of the Euro's mentioned at #8, but that doesn't mean that neither are first round material.

Having said that, I do agree with you that we need defensive minded players. The Bucks were nowhere near playoff material, but defense can keep you in games, and win games that you have no reason winning otherwise. If we focus on defense, the offense will come, and that's really the horror of losing players like Afflalo & Knight, who are both very good defenders, but will also score in bunches as well! We can't let looking for super stars blind us to the need for very good, mentally tough players on the team!

Well said Oracle. If only Drummond had a clue of what he is capable of relating to becoming a player to be feared on the defensive end. Instead he worked on is offensive game over last summer. Maybe this summer he will decide that he must learn to make smarter rotations and become a good shot blocker and defensive rebounder.

I loved the part where you brought up Chuck Atkins and Ben Wallace. Joe Dumars did do a smart thing in getting Wallace. Or was John Hammond behind that move as well?

[Oracle]

@Wise - I'm not going to argue with what you said because I feel mostly the same way. Unfortunately, times have changed, and my comments are more focused on what is, not what I wished they would be. But we've seen how undervalued hard workers are in this league, while flashy less fundamentally sound players get fat contracts based on the hope that they will blow up at some point.

IMO, I just think the salary of average players has risen, but that the salary of the super stars will jump even more crazy when the CAP rises, and it will all be equalized. Remember that all of what you're talking about is RELATIVE, not absolute, so if the Knights & Monroe's payday rises, so does the LeBron's etc.

@Don - You said, "We have no athletic big man who can block shots and play outstanding defense in the paint. We have nothing!".

While watching the Clippers, who are just barely, IMO, learning how to be mentally tough, play the Rockets who aren't mentally tough, I was shocked as to what was going through my mind watching DeAndre Jordan defend Howard!

Shocked because I never thought I would think or say this, but DAMN, I wish Andre Drummond could play this well defensively!

Jordan has made HUGE strides under Doc Rivers on both ends of the floor. He still shoots FT's poorly, 2nd from the absolute bottom, and of course we have that cellar dweller. Drummond should be ashamed to be the absolute worst at anything, but especially when the worst is a mark of excellence so low!

On SVG, I've been one of his greatest critics as a GM, and will continue to call his moves as I see them, but he was a rookie and I expected some bumps in the road because he also hadn't filled out his staff!

I still think he deserves some space to make his moves with some benefit of the doubt, and judge him on the results. To be honest, Ben Wallace & Chucky Atkins in the Grant Hill S&T didn't make a resounding sound anywhere in the league or public.

I'm sure SVG will make more mistakes, but hopefully he makes some good moves as well. BTW, I wouldn't draft either of the Euro's mentioned at #8, but that doesn't mean that neither are first round material.

Having said that, I do agree with you that we need defensive minded players. The Bucks were nowhere near playoff material, but defense can keep you in games, and win games that you have no reason winning otherwise. If we focus on defense, the offense will come, and that's really the horror of losing players like Afflalo & Knight, who are both very good defenders, but will also score in bunches as well! We can't let looking for super stars blind us to the need for very good, mentally tough players on the team!

[cool breeze]

Re-signs "Moose" Monroe to a max contract for 5 years, and after he proves what we already know, attempts to trade him next year when the CAP rises, and New York, Boston, and L.A. hangs up on him, after laughing their asses off?

After re-signing Monroe to a max deal (thus preventing the Pistons from duplicating a max for Drummond) Andre decides to go the "Moose route" by signing a Q.O., because he'll be coming off an All-Star season, something Monroe has yet to do, and refuses to re-sign with Detroit in spite of Gores/SVG pleas? Roy Hibbert part 2!

Refuses to pay Reggie Jackson what he's worth to us, because we have the great Brandon Jennings (remember those 16 games folks), so a S & T done for Jackson and we get some scraps out of the deal, and jennings goes back to the BJ we know him to be in his final year here?

After letting Jackson go, Jennings signs with the Lakers next summer and we end up starting Dinwiddie at PG, and signing Peyton Siva as his backup, who consistently outperforms Dinwiddie?

Cuts Cartier Martin and re-signs Kyle Singler? Not only picks up the option on Caron Butler, but signs him to an extension?

Drafts Willie Cauley-Stein, even though Stanley johnson, Mario hezonja, and Kristaps Porzingis are still on the board?

Trades KCP in a fit of rage because of his inconsistencies on the offensive side of the ball, and starts F@ckin' Jodie Meeks at SG?

I can wake up from my nightmare about SVG (them damn tacos from Armando's), but this is the reality of the fears I have regarding this guy! I hope it's no more than a nightmare and he shows better this summer than he did last year.  

dX after watching a lot of playoff games I am having those nightmares much like yours. I love this post. We Piston fans have been jerked around so much we think that anything is possible when it comes to our feeble minded Piston management. This season it has appeared that Stan Van Gundy has made knee jerk decisions on the fly without any real solid plan. After he does it the press comes in with articles about how Stan has made the team much stronger. What I see is now we have the weakest bench in the entire league. We have a bunch of reject players who can't play well together and have on idea how to play high energy defense or better yet they have no interest in getting themselves in good enough physical condition to play solid defense. The playoff players who we see now that are successful are in amazing physical condition and they have spent thousands of hours perfecting their overall game. They automatically go to the right spots on the floor on offense and anticipate on defense always making the correct rotation. Who are our management leaders trying to fool? How many teams would place their full faith in players like Tolliver or Monroe for example? And don't forget Stan Van Gundy signed his ace 2 guard last summer who is extremely small for his position and cannot defend any of the top 2 guards or point guards in the league. We have no athletic big man who can block shots and play outstanding defense in the paint. We have nothing! That is why we are having so many nightmares while our Piston management uses smoke and mirrors in an attempt to sell season tickets over the summer. No the Palace will be empty again Mr. Gores.

[cool breeze]

If SVG does go after him, that would setup a competition with KCP at SG for all the marbles, because he's NOT a SF as I thought, but a SG(6'6)!

I just found this more recent footage of him, and it's rather impressive! He's a lot more athletic than I thought, and I'd be shocked if he doesn't do well in the NBA in a few years! Yeah, he's a bit cocky, but IMO, you need a bit of that if you want to play with the big boys! In short, I won't crap my drawers anymore if SVG were to draft him.

Take a look.

Oracle I am not convinced at all. This is a pipe dream at best. He currently comes off the bench playing Euro basketball. He is known as a horrible defender. Remember Darko who scouts said could stretch the floor? There are a lot of really solid college players who are extremely athletic in this draft. Most of those players have been forced to show that they can fit into a system and hold their own on defense. The power forward Stan Van Gundy is looking at is also a high risk type player who will take years to develop because he can't defend a fly. The NBA teams that are stocked with amazing talent can take big risks but the Detroit Pistons lack proven talent at every position with the exception of possibly point guard. If Stan Van Gundy is looking for the number one overall pick in 2016 then go ahead and waste this first pick.

Isn't it interesting that Van Gundy is looking for a Euro player who currently comes off the bench and has a history of being a inept defender. He is the kind of player who would have to sit the bench if the Pistons did ever make the playoffs. Meanwhile, Van Gundy traded Kyle Singler who has NBA experience, plays effective defense and shot the 3 point shot better than any other Piston player at over 40%. If you are the Piston's GM and you know that your current players as a group are among the worst defensive players in the league, how in hell would you consider another player who can't hold his own in Euro basketball? Does Van Gundy believe that Stanley Johnson will be drafted before the 8th pick? I believe that will happen. Teams who draft before Detroit will be crazy to gamble on either of those Euro players Van Gundy is currently considering. If that happens, then we should take a proven college star like Kaminsky or his teammate who plays small forward. As I watch the playoffs it is clear that there is no place for soft lazy minded players who have a history of playing like crap on the defensive end. Would Van Gundy draft Daye if he were in the draft this year? I am losing my respect for this entire organization at the thought that this Piston brain trust could be so far in left field after watching how this Piston team lost so many games this past season. We lost because of weak big minded big men who played defense worse than Jason Maxiell.

Right now I would trade every Piston player with the exception of Drummond, Pope and Jackson. Give all of them away for Matt Barnes. That is how far this organization has fallen. We have no proven player who we can say is better at his position than most other NBA players who start for their teams. We have three players with potential. All the rest are either too old or have no potential to hold their own on defense while being spotty at best on offense. They are all fringe players. Adding another fringe player is beyond insane and just the thought that Van Gundy would travel to Europe to take a look knowing what experts already know about the individual history those two players Have established leaves me with the thought that nothing has changed in Piston land. We are doomed to watching a team that lives in the bowels of the NBA. Detroit will still be known as a NBA destination that is equal to Siberia in Russia. A place where no solid NBA player wants to go because he will be playing with soft minded lazy ass players who have no chance to win because they can't or won't play tough defense.

[WTF]

Potential Super Star: These are the Kobe, Lebron, Tim Duncans and MJ, Magic, Bird and Zeke just to name a handful or few that you looked at and can undoubtedly refer to as Super Stars. By no stretch of the imagination can you say not a one was deserving of a Max Contract.

Potential All Star: IMO you start thinking of players like CP3, Carmelo, Gasol, KD, Harden and D-Rose and so on. In most cases you could argue Max Contract some of these guys maybe even all of the time. These player tend to have large amount of impact on a team success and often bring or have fan appeal as well sell out arenas.

Potential Great Player: Not Greatest Players! These player tend to fall some where in between Potential All Star and Good Players and IMO are always on the cusp of getting a Max Deal. Players like Affalo, Josh Smith, Z-Bo, Ginobli, Marc Gasol, etc. There's no issue about the amount of talent they have just a matter of systematically fitting on a team.

Potential Good Player: Under no circumstance are these guys worth Max Contracts. IMO this is what we have a team full of right now and their pay should reflect their level of play and impact. Moose is potentially a good player and likely will never be a great player because of his poor work ethics and laziness of defense, hell I'll toss in having no mid range game. Sadly because there are no established standards of excellence anymore, no longer a process of growth his sorry ass might get a Max Contract.

In the case of Knight while I think he is more deserving of a bigger pay day than a player like Moose, even Reggie Jackson BTW who won't be getting a Max Contract but paid well. Being the best player on a team really doesn't count for much unless your the best player on a contending team and threatening to when titles. You have to be real careful with players like Knight I agree that his work ethics and leadership puts him slightly ahead of many Good Players but you don't want to over pay them.

[Oracle]

If SVG does go after him, that would setup a competition with KCP at SG for all the marbles, because he's NOT a SF as I thought, but a SG(6'6)!

I just found this more recent footage of him, and it's rather impressive! He's a lot more athletic than I thought, and I'd be shocked if he doesn't do well in the NBA in a few years! Yeah, he's a bit cocky, but IMO, you need a bit of that if you want to play with the big boys! In short, I won't crap my drawers anymore if SVG were to draft him.

Take a look.

[Oracle]

Or Wise on the CAP

Wise, it's not as bad as you think! If the league wasn't making more money, I would agree with you, but they are, and it's because of the players, so IMO, they should benefit, and unlike in real life, the rising tide WILL raise all boats!

On Knight: If any player is the BEST player on his team, and as YOU said, we're to disregard potential, then shouldn't that player get the max, especially if they're playing at all star levels? If the CAP wasn't rising, I still believe the Bucks offer should have been closer to the max, maybe 10-11M, but they panicked and didn't want to lose in negotiations.

I think what you miss about Knight is that he's not only a good player, he sets an example of hard work, determination and commitment to defense, which provides leadership on a team! If you listen to what Phoenix management says, that is a big reason they want him, they need leadership and they're willing to pay for it, so he's worth it!

On Monroe: This situation is a bit different. Monroe is NOT the best player on the team, even though he's one of the best. I don't think Monroe is one of the leaders either, so under normal circumstances, he wouldn't be in a position to demand a max contract. But he's likely to get one based on the position he plays. Center & PG are key positions and talent in either generally commands max money. So while Monroe may not technically be worth the max, from a practical nature he is likely to get the max!

Finally: IMO, if a player can get paid the max, that's all of the proof required, as they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating!

[deusXango]

Re-signs "Moose" Monroe to a max contract for 5 years, and after he proves what we already know, attempts to trade him next year when the CAP rises, and New York, Boston, and L.A. hangs up on him, after laughing their asses off?

After re-signing Monroe to a max deal (thus preventing the Pistons from duplicating a max for Drummond) Andre decides to go the "Moose route" by signing a Q.O., because he'll be coming off an All-Star season, something Monroe has yet to do, and refuses to re-sign with Detroit in spite of Gores/SVG pleas? Roy Hibbert part 2!

Refuses to pay Reggie Jackson what he's worth to us, because we have the great Brandon Jennings (remember those 16 games folks), so a S & T done for Jackson and we get some scraps out of the deal, and jennings goes back to the BJ we know him to be in his final year here?

After letting Jackson go, Jennings signs with the Lakers next summer and we end up starting Dinwiddie at PG, and signing Peyton Siva as his backup, who consistently outperforms Dinwiddie?

Cuts Cartier Martin and re-signs Kyle Singler? Not only picks up the option on Caron Butler, but signs him to an extension?

Drafts Willie Cauley-Stein, even though Stanley johnson, Mario hezonja, and Kristaps Porzingis are still on the board?

Trades KCP in a fit of rage because of his inconsistencies on the offensive side of the ball, and starts F@ckin' Jodie Meeks at SG?

I can wake up from my nightmare about SVG (them damn tacos from Armando's), but this is the reality of the fears I have regarding this guy! I hope it's no more than a nightmare and he shows better this summer than he did last year.

[WTF]

Of course it's just one mans opinion but damn! I honestly don't care if Cap Space rises to a billion dollars it bother me that some of these already overpaid under performing players think their salaries should go up.

It's one thing to think this if you're a Lebron James or a similar player with similar credentials and your impact on a team and in the league is such that it generates billions. I'm sorry but the likes of players like Monroe and now even Brandon Knight demanding Max Deals is just insane IMO. Remember in past we use to complain about players barely making a million gathering dust at the end of a bench but even then we knew what purpose they served and it wasn't so bad.

Somehow paying these self-proclaimed wannabe stars that simply go through the motions of being an NBA player halfheartedly just makes my stomach turn and it should make everyone stomach turn. If I was 12 years old then you can say I just simply don't know any better but being that I'm 50 and had the pleasure of seeing the likes of many NBA greats put their heart and souls into the game I once love seeing these current lazy asses demanding big paydays without giving real effort makes me sick.

What bothers me most is that these asses get paid based on potential, the potential of being the next Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan, or the wish thinking that they'll the next Kobe, or Lebron. While I'm not blind to potential I'm also not blind to the fact that these are exceptional players and that these guys had huge impact on the game and have the credentials to warrant big contracts.

If Monroe drew enough attention with his effort and talent that the Palace sold out every night and the team manage at least a low seed in the playoff each of his five seasons then yeah one could make those arguments for a max deal, but it didn't happen that way so why on earth do you pay a player like it did.

Granted the league is making a ton of money and that's a great thing and if this was a normal business and we were addressing cost of living issues with the normal working class then I'm all for working class folks sharing in the wealth but these greedy ass lazy players that making in a year what many may not make in a league time should be automatically reward because the league financial success.

All I'm saying is prove yourself worthy of a Max Deal first before demanding it. If the teams and league don't fix this issue quickly it's going to sink into an abyss.

[cool breeze]

Why was Knight traded? It turns out that it was 100% about the money, and the Bucks only wanted to cough up 9M/yr to their best player, but he wanted closer to 12M(he'll likely get even more from the Suns). Dumb move by the Bucks because with the CAP rising, locking up Knight would have been a smart move. They're likely to suffer as Parker's recovery from a torn ACL is something you really have to watch, and with MCW, you need more firepower around him to get the benefit of his superior floor vision. - Report: Brandon Knight Wanted $48 Million From Milwaukee

Leave it to Zeke to do some interesting analysis! He called the Warrior's backcourt the best shooting duo he's ever seen, and I agree! IMO, not the best overall, but in shooting, that's an easy call! But it's what he says after that, that's interesting, and also about another rule change!

Thomas, an analyst for the NBA Network, did bring up a great point: with hand checking eliminated from the game (which was allowed when Thomas was leading the Pistons to two NBA titles) it's tough to stop Golden State's dynamic duo.

"The rules don't allow you to do that," he said. "Now would they be the same if hand-checking and all that were back in the game? The way they shoot the basketball and their mechanics would have to change.

"We can say they are the best shooting backcourt that we've seen, but we don't know how great others would have shot the basketball under these rules with no contact. When you look at a Reggie Miller or a Ray Allen, who had to shoot with hand checking and people bumping them ... it's just different without the physicality."

Thomas asked how great a shooter would Larry Bird have been under the current rules?

"Everything would be different," Thomas said, "because people couldn't put their hands on you and they can't touch you. Consequently, your balance is different. When you're in the gym shooting by yourself and nobody's touching or pushing you ... that's kind of what's happening today.

"Everyone has a chance to be as pure as shooter as they can be. That's not taking anything away from Thompson or Curry."

Finally, more Mock Draft Guesses. While this one has us taking Johnson, it's interesting who goes before and after. This draft is really going to be interesting because the order, IMO, is in total flux! Who knows how this thing will shakeout! BTW, the two Euro's that I panned, seem to have more star power in some minds than I've given them credit for... interesting! - 2015 NBA Common Sense Mock Draft: Projecting first round on need and fit

Oracle one has to wonder if Tom Gores and Joe Dumars were given the same information by Knight or Knight's agent that he wanted a max contract if the Pistons wanted him to stay in Detroit. Detroit decided against paying for Knight and were able to get Jennings at a time when few if any other GMs wanted him. There was no way the Bucks were interesting in keeping Jennings and they let that information out before Detroit made the stupid trade. If Gores had locked up Knight we would have a solid starting two way player who could play playoff style basketball while being able to keep Middleton. Instead Tom Gores and his group of owners made the same type of decision they made when they decided to trade Ben Gordon to save a few bucks. Knowing that by giving up Knight and Middleton (both good defenders) while adding Jennings the Detroit Pistons could do only one thing -LOSE. The owner and Joe Dumars couldn't have had blinders on when making that decision. They watched the games like we did. This team at the time had the worst group of defenders ever played on one NBA team at the same time. All of the guards were horrible defenders and they add Jennings who was the worst starting defensive point guard in the NBA. So what can we conclude from those two deals? This owner has billions of dollars. Yet he is cheap compared to other successful teams. He made decisions on a financial basic with no consideration for doing the right thing to make the team as good as it can be.

Meanwhile, the last play of this Spurs - Clippers game said it all for me. They both have selected top hard working players. The Spurs have one second. The ball is slightly off from the center of the rim. Somehow Leonard gets to the rim and jumps up and has his hand ready to tap the ball in the hoop. But Matt Barnes is also athletic as hell and somehow taps the ball away. Matt Barnes has played for a lot of teams. The Clippers coach knows the players extremely well in the NBA. He knows what Barnes brings to any team and signs him. Meanwhile, our owner and the previous President GM Joe Dumars never considered Matt Barnes as a player they would be interested in adding to the Pistons. Joe had it down. zin his eyes Daye, Jennings, Monroe, Stuckey, Bynum, Maxiell, Charlie V, Ben Gordon and countless others were more promising through the years than Matt Barnes. How could any GM go through so many seasons with Jason Maxiell being the team's best big man and get away with it? Keep the expenses down was the slogan. Most likely players like Matt Barnes told their agents to cross off the Pistons from their list of preferred teams from the get go. Those hard nosed players would say, I don't want to play with those pitiful Piston players. How far this organization has sunk since Mr. Big Shot's crew ruled the Eastern Conference.

[cool breeze]

I always pull for the Spurs and am disappointed that they won't get a crack at Houston. It will be difficult for the Clippers to win the next series with Paul's hamstring issue. Sometimes a player can gut it out during the game when the injury occurs but after that the swelling sets in and you feel like a wounded animal when you try to compete a few days after that type of injury. A key non foul was called against Duncan where it was clear that Paul was not touched at all. the ref who called it was out of position under the basket and there is no way he could have seen any contact because Duncan blocked his vision.

Even though the Spurs lost there will be some memories I will not soon forget. Andre Drummond should take note of Duncan stepping to the line with 8 seconds or so left in the game with his team down by 3. Duncan has really struggled at the free throw line for his entire career. Early on he had his share of big misses especially in the NCAA tournament where his team lost to Stanford in his team's 2nd game of the tournament. But Duncan through hard work and will power became a better free throw shooter. So he steps up to the line and makes both free throws in this last game. He might toss and turn in bed because his team lost but he can feel good that he didn't miss at the line with millions of basketball fans watching.

Another great moment for me was Danny Green blocking Blake Griffins' high energy dunk attempt. That was the moment that I thought the Spurs would take the game. But Leonard had one of those games where the basketball just would not go down for him. That was the difference along with some outstanding shooting from long range and Paul's game winning shot at the end for the Clippers. Nobody who purchased a ticket was cheated and most will always remember that game for the rest of their lives.

This game represents the opposite of what most Piston fans feel after they attend a home game at the Palace. The 39 year old Tim Duncan never took a play off. He ran at full speed from free throw line to free throw line in this game. How could he do it? Tim is in outstanding physical condition unlike our much younger big men who are so admired by some Piston fans. That half speed trot by both Drummond and Monroe is sickening for me because I know they do that because they have no idea what kind of work it takes to be able to play a complete game at their full potential. Duncan has achieved that level of performance and loves that feeling. That is the only way any player can really enjoy playing the game. You can't just goof off when you go to the gym. Every moment is precious if you want to get yourself up to the level of the best in the game. Drummond has incredible potential but that means nothing. I hope he knows that and realizes he is not in good enough physical condition relating to running, stopping and starting bending and being able to tolerate the crouch position. Getting into and holding while moving in the crouch position is very painful but if you work at it, you can overcome the pain. I see Drummond getting down some of the time. I have never seen Monroe get into a proper base position yet. He is a straight up player and because of that will always be limited. It affects a players ability to shoot the mid range shot or free throw. But defense really shows off what kind of real work a player has put in before the games even begin. You can't get through screens, set screens properly, box out or become a quick rebounder if you fail to get your ass in the crouch position. That is what I say when I talk about our big men going through an entire season out of shape. It has been pointed out by the experts that our Detroit Pistons have the worst defensive big men in the league. They fail to protect the painted area game after game. To me nothing changed this season in the painted area because the same big men occupied those positions. In this last game with the Clippers and Spurs big men from both teams worked their asses off to sprint back and move their feet to prevent any easy shots or 2nd chance opportunities. If Van Gundy doesn't address this basic weakness in our Piston team, then he will be considered a failure as a GM and head coach after next year.

This leads me to which player we should take in the first round. I will be very upset if Stan picks one of the two foreign players he is currently looking at in Europe. Both players are weak defenders. The Pistons are known though out the league as being the home for weak defensive players. We still have too many and the team will be screwed big time if Stan Van Gundy drafts one more inept sorry ass weak minded player who has never played a lick of defense with drive and determination. Whoever is drafted in both rounds much have some positive credentials as having a history of being a good defender the Palace will remain empty.

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