yeah, Yeah, YEAH, boooy!

[deusXango]

It seems that SVG is all lathered up to dispense with our assets (the first and most popular was Harris, now it's our current #12 pick and Drummond and/or Jackson) to live out his archaic dream or go down in a hail of boos. I'm so exhausted with hearing the dump Drummond  talk that I'm ready to part company with him and see how much this 23 year old improves his game elsewhere...you all think loosing Middleton was a tragedy, but looking back on dumping Andre because he doesn't make FT's will make you absolutely sick. My belief is SVG doesn't have any intentions of trading Reggie Jackson, no matter what, if he does it'll be a pleasant surprise. Every time I read about a potential draft pick at #12, it makes my stomach flip; they seem to be more justifications for trading the pick than seriously making an astute draft. If we keep it and it turns out to be a player that SVG actually plays, I'll be glad. Reggie doesn't care for Tobias and therefore SVG doesn't either, so I fully expect him to be gone, and some silly ass excuse will be given; "we had to make room on the payroll to re-sign KCP." We couldn't get into the playoffs with KCP before Tobias, but without him we'll be in the ECF.

So a team without Drummond Harris, and this years lottery pick will be more competitive than last years edition of the Detroit Pistons? I'm glad I'm not deluded enough to see that and it making sense to me. Everyone across the basketball world, and that includes SVG, realize that changes need to be made in Detroit, but tend to talk around the real changes needed; coach and PG!

dX nobody can develop a player that doesn't want to be developed. That is Andre Drummond. How many times to you think the Piston's coaching staff have begged Andre Drummond to get up to speed in learning the basic defensive rotation system the team uses? How many times do you think the Piston coaching staff has talked to Drummond at half time when they tried to make adjustments to their defense when players like Anthony Davis scored at will against Drummond? Andre has a reputation of not listening or comprehending what his coaches tell him either in college or the various coaches he has had as a pro. Andre only plays his own game. He is satisfied with that game. He is rich now and will be even more difficult to tolerate if you are his teammate or his coach. If any team really does want him, it will be a blessing if he packs his bags and leaves Michigan. I can't understand how anyone who has watched him stink up the hardwood last season would want to take any more chances with that guy in a clutch situation. He cannot play even yet in crunch time not only because he can't make free throws dX. Take a look at the players on both finals teams. All of the players are smart basketball players who do not rest during the summer and ever think that they have it all down. You have a fantasy that will never be realized. Could Brad Stevens make something out of Andre Drummond? I think the only person who could motivate Drummond might be Labron James. James would make Drummond bend over his knee and receive a spanking. That is what Andre needs to wake him up from his big sleep. James would insist that Drummond get up at 4:30AM every morning and follow him to the field house to experience some real torture. Drummond would be forced to learn how to react properly on defense. But first Drummond would have to get in the same physical condition as Labron James. That is how Labron leads. He is the one who gets the best out of his teammates. That is what Isiah Thomas did as well. Meanwhile the grossly out of shape and over weight Andre Drummond will sit around eating ice cream cones calling himself the team leader and encouraging his teammates to follow his lead to "rest" more. dX please come to your senses and forget the fantasy you have of making Andre Drummond into a real basketball player. He doesn't know that he doesn't know and that will be the way he travels though out his life relating to playing basketball. Off the court he is a good gentle man. I respect that quality in him. But that doesn't help the Pistons get better.

Okay Don, we've got Drummond addressed, now what about the remainder of my post? Will you comment on Harris's status with the team as thoroughly as you did with Andre. What about our bench leader and floor general? Where do you stand on trading away our #12 pick (which amounts to roughly nothing in the way of acquiring a quality veteran that can contribute to the team more than a voice), please give me/us more than more Drummond bashing. I've removed him from the equation!  

Good I wish SVG felt that way too. My gut says he does but cannot find a buyer for our resting franchise player. Maybe he has only been offered some highly paid scrubs and a 2nd round pick. Who really knows if Piston management gets even one call for anyone on the Piston roster?

I like Harris and think he could be a really exciting player if Detroit had a better point guard and 2 guard. I like Harris at small forward not the 2.

Do not trade the 12th pick unless Detroit can move on up in the lottery to get a starting caliber point guard. Our Piston team will not compete for a title until we get at least three top NBA players. We have none now in my opinion. I see no player who will likely improve with the exception of S. Johnson and H. Ellenson. But this coaching staff does not work well with young players. Stan Van Gundy was the wrong hire for a team that needs to build through the draft. SVG is a smoke and mirrors type of coach now. He wasn't that way in the past but now he thinks that he must pull off a miracle through free agency or trades for older middle level talent just so the Pistons have a chance to get the 8th spot in the playoffs. Tom Gores needs to figure this out quickly before this draft or we might lose the pick.

The big decision is what to do regarding Pope. Management has stated they will match any offer which is amazing and shows how poorly our highly paid management team operates. They like to bid against themselves much like Dumars  did with Stuckey and of course his mind blowing trade for Brandon Jennings. He just decided to throw in Middleton for no reason. Nobody wanted Brandon Jennings at the time this deal happened. Joe was talking to himself too much which perhaps SVG is now doing too much of as well relating to Pope. Nothing makes sense anymore with the Pistons. If I were the coach and had to experience this past season especially the last two months, there would be no question as to how much I would be willing to pay for KCP. He is no better than a $8 mil NBA 2 guard at best. If he wants a dime more, he should take his game elsewhere.

I could find nothing on any of the NBA trade rumor boards involving the Pistons so it appears that the big players Boston, Phoenix and Philly are not interested in any of our players. I would like that number one pick from Boston and thought there might be a chance to trade Drummond with Boston. But Drummond is now well known throughout the league. His value has dropped off the charts since last summer. I keep hoping for a miracle though. Drummond is a mystery and i thought that because he is so athletic when he wants to be that some GM would have a big ego and think that he has a coach who could change him. It looks like Drummond will be returning to Piston training camp well rested and ready to start collecting his money while doing as little work as possible to avoid embarrassment when playing defense against Anthony Davis. He just doesn't seem to take getting his ass kicked personal. Good for him.

That's the Don I know and love to read; thoughtful, deep, honest, and direct. Now that wasn't hard, was it?

[Sparma]

That is interesting, Deus, because if plausible it means that Phil has totally lost it, just as many Knicks fans think.

Just saw a report stating Pistons may be interested in trading their 12th to the Knicks for a vet player.  The only one that makes sense is Courtney Lee.  This would make KCP expendable and give us 10+ M to play with, like resigning Baynes.  It's a stretch and nothing is done but makes things interesting.  Thoughts?

Go Stones, I know this is out of left field, but what about Reggie Jackson for their #8? When/if he returns to form, as he and SVG have emphatically stated, will there be a talent the class of RJ available at #8? Those are my thought, albeit not very interesting.  

[cool breeze]

It seems that SVG is all lathered up to dispense with our assets (the first and most popular was Harris, now it's our current #12 pick and Drummond and/or Jackson) to live out his archaic dream or go down in a hail of boos. I'm so exhausted with hearing the dump Drummond  talk that I'm ready to part company with him and see how much this 23 year old improves his game elsewhere...you all think loosing Middleton was a tragedy, but looking back on dumping Andre because he doesn't make FT's will make you absolutely sick. My belief is SVG doesn't have any intentions of trading Reggie Jackson, no matter what, if he does it'll be a pleasant surprise. Every time I read about a potential draft pick at #12, it makes my stomach flip; they seem to be more justifications for trading the pick than seriously making an astute draft. If we keep it and it turns out to be a player that SVG actually plays, I'll be glad. Reggie doesn't care for Tobias and therefore SVG doesn't either, so I fully expect him to be gone, and some silly ass excuse will be given; "we had to make room on the payroll to re-sign KCP." We couldn't get into the playoffs with KCP before Tobias, but without him we'll be in the ECF.

So a team without Drummond Harris, and this years lottery pick will be more competitive than last years edition of the Detroit Pistons? I'm glad I'm not deluded enough to see that and it making sense to me. Everyone across the basketball world, and that includes SVG, realize that changes need to be made in Detroit, but tend to talk around the real changes needed; coach and PG!

dX nobody can develop a player that doesn't want to be developed. That is Andre Drummond. How many times to you think the Piston's coaching staff have begged Andre Drummond to get up to speed in learning the basic defensive rotation system the team uses? How many times do you think the Piston coaching staff has talked to Drummond at half time when they tried to make adjustments to their defense when players like Anthony Davis scored at will against Drummond? Andre has a reputation of not listening or comprehending what his coaches tell him either in college or the various coaches he has had as a pro. Andre only plays his own game. He is satisfied with that game. He is rich now and will be even more difficult to tolerate if you are his teammate or his coach. If any team really does want him, it will be a blessing if he packs his bags and leaves Michigan. I can't understand how anyone who has watched him stink up the hardwood last season would want to take any more chances with that guy in a clutch situation. He cannot play even yet in crunch time not only because he can't make free throws dX. Take a look at the players on both finals teams. All of the players are smart basketball players who do not rest during the summer and ever think that they have it all down. You have a fantasy that will never be realized. Could Brad Stevens make something out of Andre Drummond? I think the only person who could motivate Drummond might be Labron James. James would make Drummond bend over his knee and receive a spanking. That is what Andre needs to wake him up from his big sleep. James would insist that Drummond get up at 4:30AM every morning and follow him to the field house to experience some real torture. Drummond would be forced to learn how to react properly on defense. But first Drummond would have to get in the same physical condition as Labron James. That is how Labron leads. He is the one who gets the best out of his teammates. That is what Isiah Thomas did as well. Meanwhile the grossly out of shape and over weight Andre Drummond will sit around eating ice cream cones calling himself the team leader and encouraging his teammates to follow his lead to "rest" more. dX please come to your senses and forget the fantasy you have of making Andre Drummond into a real basketball player. He doesn't know that he doesn't know and that will be the way he travels though out his life relating to playing basketball. Off the court he is a good gentle man. I respect that quality in him. But that doesn't help the Pistons get better.

Okay Don, we've got Drummond addressed, now what about the remainder of my post? Will you comment on Harris's status with the team as thoroughly as you did with Andre. What about our bench leader and floor general? Where do you stand on trading away our #12 pick (which amounts to roughly nothing in the way of acquiring a quality veteran that can contribute to the team more than a voice), please give me/us more than more Drummond bashing. I've removed him from the equation!

Good I wish SVG felt that way too. My gut says he does but cannot find a buyer for our resting franchise player. Maybe he has only been offered some highly paid scrubs and a 2nd round pick. Who really knows if Piston management gets even one call for anyone on the Piston roster?

I like Harris and think he could be a really exciting player if Detroit had a better point guard and 2 guard. I like Harris at small forward not the 2.

Do not trade the 12th pick unless Detroit can move on up in the lottery to get a starting caliber point guard. Our Piston team will not compete for a title until we get at least three top NBA players. We have none now in my opinion. I see no player who will likely improve with the exception of S. Johnson and H. Ellenson. But this coaching staff does not work well with young players. Stan Van Gundy was the wrong hire for a team that needs to build through the draft. SVG is a smoke and mirrors type of coach now. He wasn't that way in the past but now he thinks that he must pull off a miracle through free agency or trades for older middle level talent just so the Pistons have a chance to get the 8th spot in the playoffs. Tom Gores needs to figure this out quickly before this draft or we might lose the pick.

The big decision is what to do regarding Pope. Management has stated they will match any offer which is amazing and shows how poorly our highly paid management team operates. They like to bid against themselves much like Dumars did with Stuckey and of course his mind blowing trade for Brandon Jennings. He just decided to throw in Middleton for no reason. Nobody wanted Brandon Jennings at the time this deal happened. Joe was talking to himself too much which perhaps SVG is now doing too much of as well relating to Pope. Nothing makes sense anymore with the Pistons. If I were the coach and had to experience this past season especially the last two months, there would be no question as to how much I would be willing to pay for KCP. He is no better than a $8 mil NBA 2 guard at best. If he wants a dime more, he should take his game elsewhere.

I could find nothing on any of the NBA trade rumor boards involving the Pistons so it appears that the big players Boston, Phoenix and Philly are not interested in any of our players. I would like that number one pick from Boston and thought there might be a chance to trade Drummond with Boston. But Drummond is now well known throughout the league. His value has dropped off the charts since last summer. I keep hoping for a miracle though. Drummond is a mystery and i thought that because he is so athletic when he wants to be that some GM would have a big ego and think that he has a coach who could change him. It looks like Drummond will be returning to Piston training camp well rested and ready to start collecting his money while doing as little work as possible to avoid embarrassment when playing defense against Anthony Davis. He just doesn't seem to take getting his ass kicked personal. Good for him.

[deusXango]

Just saw a report stating Pistons may be interested in trading their 12th to the Knicks for a vet player.  The only one that makes sense is Courtney Lee.  This would make KCP expendable and give us 10+ M to play with, like resigning Baynes.  It's a stretch and nothing is done but makes things interesting.  Thoughts?

Go Stones, I know this is out of left field, but what about Reggie Jackson for their #8? When/if he returns to form, as he and SVG have emphatically stated, will there be a talent the class of RJ available at #8? Those are my thought, albeit not very interesting.

[Sparma]

Thanks for the update regarding Courtney Lee, Stones.  I'd heard of the general rumor of the Pistons trading pick #12, but not that particular version.

I think it would be a great trade for Phil Jackson and the Knicks.  As best I know, Lee's a solid NBA player who likely would contribute more to the Pistons next year than the #12 pick would [at least as employed by SVG!].  But dude turns 32 a few days into the season.  SVG's done some go things, but if he thinks we're ready to go into win now mode aided by a middling vet at the price of a lottery pick, he's seriously misguided.  Or worse, if he's beginning to put job security gaining by moderate success before building for the future.   What's the end game here?  We're nowhere near contending next year.  Please don't do it!

Had heard of the rumor of the Knicks swooping for one of Portland's three 1st rounders, by providing them with some salary relief. The Knicks could get quite a rebuild going this summer, even without Carmelo's consent to a trade.

Just saw a report stating Pistons may be interested in trading their 12th to the Knicks for a vet player.  The only one that makes sense is Courtney Lee.  This would make KCP expendable and give us 10+ M to play with, like resigning Baynes.  It's a stretch and nothing is done but makes things interesting.  Thoughts?

[Phil-Good]

Step right up....Step right up. Going out of business sale. ALL MUST GO!!!

First up. KCP. Picture A Toney Allen but smaller, not as smart, with A little better jump shot and on A MAX CONTRACT! If that's appealing to you, please make A bid.

Next up Reggie Jackson. Always sick, over heats, always short of breath, has A bum knee, can be A bit of A diva, thinks he is way better then he really is. He also is A certified ball hog. Needs the basketball in his hands too much to be effective. I will take anything I can get for this guy.


Next is Andre Drummonds. Now I want something for this young man. He has his issues. Maturity, effort, defense, shot blocking. Always falling to the F.U.C.K.I.N.G floor after every layup he attempts. Make A long story short, Dwight Howard 2.0 But Drummonds could become something if he started to take his career serious. Added A 10 to 12 feet jump-shot and found A coach who would push him in the right direction. The kid could be A all NBA player. But that's A big IF!!!

I say keep Drummonds and dump Jackson and Pope. Rebuild the back-court and begin to move forward. So what if the Pistons don't make the playoffs next season. Better then getting killed in the first round.

[Go Stones!]

Just saw a report stating Pistons may be interested in trading their 12th to the Knicks for a vet player.  The only one that makes sense is Courtney Lee.  This would make KCP expendable and give us 10+ M to play with, like resigning Baynes.  It's a stretch and nothing is done but makes things interesting.  Thoughts?

[deusXango]

It seems that SVG is all lathered up to dispense with our assets (the first and most popular was Harris, now it's our current #12 pick and Drummond and/or Jackson) to live out his archaic dream or go down in a hail of boos. I'm so exhausted with hearing the dump Drummond  talk that I'm ready to part company with him and see how much this 23 year old improves his game elsewhere...you all think loosing Middleton was a tragedy, but looking back on dumping Andre because he doesn't make FT's will make you absolutely sick. My belief is SVG doesn't have any intentions of trading Reggie Jackson, no matter what, if he does it'll be a pleasant surprise. Every time I read about a potential draft pick at #12, it makes my stomach flip; they seem to be more justifications for trading the pick than seriously making an astute draft. If we keep it and it turns out to be a player that SVG actually plays, I'll be glad. Reggie doesn't care for Tobias and therefore SVG doesn't either, so I fully expect him to be gone, and some silly ass excuse will be given; "we had to make room on the payroll to re-sign KCP." We couldn't get into the playoffs with KCP before Tobias, but without him we'll be in the ECF.

So a team without Drummond Harris, and this years lottery pick will be more competitive than last years edition of the Detroit Pistons? I'm glad I'm not deluded enough to see that and it making sense to me. Everyone across the basketball world, and that includes SVG, realize that changes need to be made in Detroit, but tend to talk around the real changes needed; coach and PG!

dX nobody can develop a player that doesn't want to be developed. That is Andre Drummond. How many times to you think the Piston's coaching staff have begged Andre Drummond to get up to speed in learning the basic defensive rotation system the team uses? How many times do you think the Piston coaching staff has talked to Drummond at half time when they tried to make adjustments to their defense when players like Anthony Davis scored at will against Drummond? Andre has a reputation of not listening or comprehending what his coaches tell him either in college or the various coaches he has had as a pro. Andre only plays his own game. He is satisfied with that game. He is rich now and will be even more difficult to tolerate if you are his teammate or his coach. If any team really does want him, it will be a blessing if he packs his bags and leaves Michigan. I can't understand how anyone who has watched him stink up the hardwood last season would want to take any more chances with that guy in a clutch situation. He cannot play even yet in crunch time not only because he can't make free throws dX. Take a look at the players on both finals teams. All of the players are smart basketball players who do not rest during the summer and ever think that they have it all down. You have a fantasy that will never be realized. Could Brad Stevens make something out of Andre Drummond? I think the only person who could motivate Drummond might be Labron James. James would make Drummond bend over his knee and receive a spanking. That is what Andre needs to wake him up from his big sleep. James would insist that Drummond get up at 4:30AM every morning and follow him to the field house to experience some real torture. Drummond would be forced to learn how to react properly on defense. But first Drummond would have to get in the same physical condition as Labron James. That is how Labron leads. He is the one who gets the best out of his teammates. That is what Isiah Thomas did as well. Meanwhile the grossly out of shape and over weight Andre Drummond will sit around eating ice cream cones calling himself the team leader and encouraging his teammates to follow his lead to "rest" more. dX please come to your senses and forget the fantasy you have of making Andre Drummond into a real basketball player. He doesn't know that he doesn't know and that will be the way he travels though out his life relating to playing basketball. Off the court he is a good gentle man. I respect that quality in him. But that doesn't help the Pistons get better.

Okay Don, we've got Drummond addressed, now what about the remainder of my post? Will you comment on Harris's status with the team as thoroughly as you did with Andre. What about our bench leader and floor general? Where do you stand on trading away our #12 pick (which amounts to roughly nothing in the way of acquiring a quality veteran that can contribute to the team more than a voice), please give me/us more than more Drummond bashing. I've removed him from the equation!

[cool breeze]

It seems that SVG is all lathered up to dispense with our assets (the first and most popular was Harris, now it's our current #12 pick and Drummond and/or Jackson) to live out his archaic dream or go down in a hail of boos. I'm so exhausted with hearing the dump Drummond  talk that I'm ready to part company with him and see how much this 23 year old improves his game elsewhere...you all think loosing Middleton was a tragedy, but looking back on dumping Andre because he doesn't make FT's will make you absolutely sick. My belief is SVG doesn't have any intentions of trading Reggie Jackson, no matter what, if he does it'll be a pleasant surprise. Every time I read about a potential draft pick at #12, it makes my stomach flip; they seem to be more justifications for trading the pick than seriously making an astute draft. If we keep it and it turns out to be a player that SVG actually plays, I'll be glad. Reggie doesn't care for Tobias and therefore SVG doesn't either, so I fully expect him to be gone, and some silly ass excuse will be given; "we had to make room on the payroll to re-sign KCP." We couldn't get into the playoffs with KCP before Tobias, but without him we'll be in the ECF.

So a team without Drummond, Harris, and this years lottery pick will be more competitive than last years edition of the Detroit Pistons? I'm glad I'm not deluded enough to see that and it making sense to me. Everyone across the basketball world, and that includes SVG, realize that changes need to be made in Detroit, but tend to talk around the real changes needed; coach and PG!

dX nobody can develop a player that doesn't want to be developed. That is Andre Drummond. How many times to you think the Piston's coaching staff have begged Andre Drummond to get up to speed in learning the basic defensive rotation system the team uses? How many times do you think the Piston coaching staff has talked to Drummond at half time when they tried to make adjustments to their defense when players like Anthony Davis scored at will against Drummond? Andre has a reputation of not listening or comprehending what his coaches tell him either in college or the various coaches he has had as a pro. Andre only plays his own game. He is satisfied with that game. He is rich now and will be even more difficult to tolerate if you are his teammate or his coach. If any team really does want him, it will be a blessing if he packs his bags and leaves Michigan. I can't understand how anyone who has watched him stink up the hardwood last season would want to take any more chances with that guy in a clutch situation. He cannot play even yet in crunch time not only because he can't make free throws dX. Take a look at the players on both finals teams. All of the players are smart basketball players who do not rest during the summer and ever think that they have it all down. You have a fantasy that will never be realized. Could Brad Stevens make something out of Andre Drummond? I think the only person who could motivate Drummond might be Labron James. James would make Drummond bend over his knee and receive a spanking. That is what Andre needs to wake him up from his big sleep. James would insist that Drummond get up at 4:30AM every morning and follow him to the field house to experience some real torture. Drummond would be forced to learn how to react properly on defense. But first Drummond would have to get in the same physical condition as Labron James. That is how Labron leads. He is the one who gets the best out of his teammates. That is what Isiah Thomas did as well. Meanwhile the grossly out of shape and over weight Andre Drummond will sit around eating ice cream cones calling himself the team leader and encouraging his teammates to follow his lead to "rest" more. dX please come to your senses and forget the fantasy you have of making Andre Drummond into a real basketball player. He doesn't know that he doesn't know and that will be the way he travels though out his life relating to playing basketball. Off the court he is a good gentle man. I respect that quality in him. But that doesn't help the Pistons get better.

[cool breeze]

Watching the finals while the idiot announcers discuss what is a T or other things that fans might argue over instead of breaking down what each team is attempting to execute like Hubie Brown does so well, I turned off the nonsense talk and enjoyed silence while enjoying this last game. As the game got more out of hand for Golden State I got what I was wishing for. I wanted to see more of Patrick McCaw the 21 year old six foot 7 inch rookie point guard. Once again Steve Kerr showed why he is still one of the smartest men in basketball even with his painful back injury driving him mad. McCaw was a guy I watched in several college games when he played at UNLV. He was off the radar at that time. Sure enough who gets him but the Warriors. Please watch this player in the next game. He can play three positions well. His footwork on defense is flawless. He has especially quick feet and he has a high basketball IQ. He was drafted as a point guard and is an exceptionally good ball handler which is something Pope is not. He can see the floor well as demonstrated with his passing in the finals which is something that Pope is not. And I love his angles on his screens. Has anyone ever seen Pope set a screen????? I haven't and that is not new news. When KCP played at Georgia all he did was shoot the basketball. His team was that bad. Pope never learned how to play winning type basketball. That is why Pope is so easily replaced if plays elsewhere. Patrick McCall is a basketball player who does a lot of things well and that is how he has managed to get into the Golden State rotation at such a young age. It is a known fact that Steve Kerr would like to have Stanley Johnson on his team. He would make Johnson into the player he is rather than forcing Johnson to fit into a defective offensive system full of defective players. This trade would be a real winner for the Pistons. McCaw could take over the point guard position or the 2 or 3. Detroit is weak at all three of those positions to be truthful. Jackson could try to EARN playing time at the 2 if he decides he will play defense to earn that time. Smith settles into his back up role which is where he belongs.

Somehow McCaw carves out playing time in this team while Henry Ellenson plays in the D-League so Jon Leuer can show his stuff. Ellenson is not strong enough or good enough on the defensive end to make the rotation on a horrible Piston team featuring Andre Drummond playing together in the paint with Leuer. Leuer has a weak upper body and almost any NBA power forward can have his way in the paint especially when he is placed there with the inept Andre Drummond. Stan Van Gundy somehow believes that Leuer is stronger than Ellenson. Where in hell does that leave the Pistons? Ellenson gets no experience while Leuer proves that he belonged on the bench where he rested for most of the season on the Phoenix Suns before SVG decided to bid against himself to obtain Leuer's services. With all those highly paid executives in the front office evaluating talent, how did the Pistons come up with Leuer and then decide to send Ellenson to the D-League? Stan Van Gundy seems to not have the ability to trust any young players. He has not shown that he or his assistant coaches have the ability to help make young players better. He or his assistant coaches have also shown that they do not have the ability to make older players better. The offensive system does not fit the team. The players do not set screens for each other. Have you seen on player on either finals team that has not set a lot of screens? How can it be that our players do not set screens for each other and all we see are players dribbling around trying to create something themselves?? We have low basketball IQ players being coached by perhaps the worst coaching staff in the NBA.

Please Piston management do not draft Zach Collins. Do you want to see another Austin Daye in a Piston uniform. Like Daye Collins was a liability on defense and could not make the starting lineup last season. He is foul prone due to lack of having the fundamentals down on the defensive end. Maybe I am going too far to compare him to Daye but they both played on the same team that plays a lot of zone defense to hide defensive weaknesses in their big men. Collins is also unproven relating to his ability to knock down the NBA 3 point shot. Collins did not shoot many 3s last season and to compare the NBA 3 point shot to the college 3 point shot would be pretty stupid. Collins is another example of a player who should stay in college and show that he good enough to start. To do that he would have to prove to Mark Few that he can play at a higher level on defense. Maybe in 3 years, Collins will figure things out playing in the D-League but he would not be of any help to the Pistons until then. The only way I would be OK with Collins as the 12th pick would be if SVG trades Andre Drummond. Collins would be an improvement to Drummond only because he is a smarter basketball player than Drummond. But I would like to see almost any center playing in front of the "resting" Andre Drummond.

[deusXango]

The "one in four out," (is a sure way out for a team of non-shooters).

We don't need to work on offense now, we're building our defense...we can't defend anyone.

The team is not scoring enough...we need a shakeup...move the teams leading scorer to the bench.

After watching 21 games of Ish Smith, what did 21 games of Reggie Jackson tell?

It's ridiculous that players gather to discuss what's wrong with the team, suddenly, and what can be done to correct it.

On the drafting of Henry Ellenson: I was sure he'd be gone...we lucked out on this guy, he's a player!

On Henry Ellenson's season: His defense is not up to par...he's too small and weak...poor 3 point shooter.

I'm sure Reggie will return to form...a supreme P & R player, who'll be less selfish and a better passer, knocking down 3's.

Stanley Johnson doesn't have enough arc on his shot, we've got to fix that.

Andre Drummond can't hit a bull moose in the ass with a bass fiddle...will somebody get him a pair of virtual reality glasses!

I'm thinking about trading the #12 for an established veteran...more bargain basement shopping Stan?

I got a dog y'all! No, I mean a real dog. I need somebody to kick during the off-season.

Never spoke of the need for high basketball I.Q.'s, technically sound players, hard workers who hungered to be the best.

Stan "The Man" Van Gundy, the guy who painted himself into a corner in front of all America.

[BallinD]

Generally the sleeper hides among the high risk/high reward players. Great example of a high risk/ high reward player...Andre Drummond. but at 9, he is not the best example. Better example is Antetokounmpou. He was a mystery man, he did not play in college. He did not play in the Euro League. Another high risk/high reward player is also from Milwaukee, Thon Maker. Do they have the formula?

There was no consensus on either of these, nor for Kwahi Leonard, nor Isaiah Thomas, drafted last. Go get us a pick, Stan

[Sparma]

No doubt.  Trouble is knowing who it is.  The Undisputed Guide to Basketball (2010) featured a study on this thing, tracking when superstars, stars, starters, role players, and bust were picked.  As I remember, there was a steady decline of odds as the picks got worse.

As to this year, I'm sure not all of the ten top consensus picks will hit and even more sure there will be hits beyond the top ten.  But beyond the study above, my sense is that scouting's improved both in basketball and football (also in baseball, but that remains the toughest).  So I do take the consensus seriously (much of which is based on leaked front office/ scouting leaks, as I understand).  The probabilities just aren't so great for us at 12.  That's why I might want to go with a player with an established, needed, skill of shooting at 12, like Kennard.

So MLive is running a story asking who could we draft that could impact the Stones and at 12 most will say nobody, (Knee-Jerk, consensus view).  I say there are probably at least two or three sleepers in there.  Go Get em!

I don't pretend to know who will be the next Kawhi or Antettokounpo, or Isiaih Thomas.  I just know that better basketball minds than SVG.  Popovich, Kidd, Kerr can find a way to draft and play rookies: a Malcolm Brogdan, or a Dejounte Murray, Patrick McCaw in the playoffs for crying out loud!!!!

This is the type of consensus-think idiocy that pisses me off.  There is no need to find the next diamond in the rough star.  There is no determination to do so, (as stated) despite SVG previously bumping his gums about having the biggest scouting organization in the NBA...then dammit get to work!!

[Oracle]

[BallinD]

So MLive is running a story asking who could we draft that could impact the Stones and at 12 most will say nobody, (Knee-Jerk, consensus view).  I say there are probably at least two or three sleepers in there.  Go Get em!

I don't pretend to know who will be the next Kawhi or Antettokounpo, or Isiaih Thomas.  I just know that better basketball minds than SVG play rookies.  Popovich, Kidd, Kerr can find a way to draft and play rookies: a Malcolm Brogdan, or a Dejounte Murray, Patrick McCaw in the playoffs for crying out loud!!!!

This is the type of consensus-think idiocy that pisses me off.  There is no need to find the next diamond in the rough star.  There is no determination to do so, (as stated) despite SVG previously bumping his gums about having the biggest scouting organization in the NBA...then dammit get to work!!

[deusXango]

It seems that SVG is all lathered up to dispense with our assets (the first and most popular was Harris, now it's our current #12 pick and Drummond and/or Jackson) to live out his archaic dream or go down in a hail of boos. I'm so exhausted with hearing the dump Drummond  talk that I'm ready to part company with him and see how much this 23 year old improves his game elsewhere...you all think loosing Middleton was a tragedy, but looking back on dumping Andre because he doesn't make FT's will make you absolutely sick. My belief is SVG doesn't have any intentions of trading Reggie Jackson, no matter what, if he does it'll be a pleasant surprise. Every time I read about a potential draft pick at #12, it makes my stomach flip; they seem to be more justifications for trading the pick than seriously making an astute draft. If we keep it and it turns out to be a player that SVG actually plays, I'll be glad. Reggie doesn't care for Tobias and therefore SVG doesn't either, so I fully expect him to be gone, and some silly ass excuse will be given; "we had to make room on the payroll to re-sign KCP." We couldn't get into the playoffs with KCP before Tobias, but without him we'll be in the ECF.

So a team without Drummond, Harris, and this years lottery pick will be more competitive than last years edition of the Detroit Pistons? I'm glad I'm not deluded enough to see that and it making sense to me. Everyone across the basketball world, and that includes SVG, realize that changes need to be made in Detroit, but tend to talk around the real changes needed; coach and PG!

[BallinD]

I'd probably roll the dice on an upgrade on the fly. I don't expect the two trades,Dre n Weggie to go down. I wouldn't trade Weggie unless I could get a pick for him, 1st round, or equal value, or trade deadline. I think a lot more creativity could accompany Dre's trade, and it would bring back more value, but that is not the question....

The question is what kind of team do we want to become. I personally would prefer a team in the role of the Ish Smith led Stones last year and I would prefer an up tempo, ball-sharing transition running team so I would want secondary ball handler/shooters and D (no, SVG, might not like that). Last year I wanted Seth Curry (pre-breakout) would love Olynyk/Engles and maybe Noel, I would love to keep Boban, Tobias, Ish, SJ, Beno, Bullock, Gbinije, Ellensen, #12 and build from there. The haul we got from Weggie, KCP and big Dre. would round it out. I could throw out names, but I never would have guessed we would get Weggie or Tobias, so...

[deusXango]

I don't see any one and done big man that'll be available to us at #12 coming in and outperforming Henry Ellenson, even though many have their doubts. That's the unfair illusion cast on a quality player when he plays for a coach who hides his talents, particularly when those talents can be used on a lottery bound team.

[deusXango]

="Phil1980boy"]Embrace the rebuild. I could be wrong but I do believe if Drummonds had A PG who could really get him the basketball in the right place at the right time, Drummonds could be A all NBA player.

If It's up to me I keep Tobias Harris, Drummonds, Morris, Stanley Johnson, H. Ellenson, Marjanovich and the 12th Pick.

Everybody else is up for grabs.... FIRE SALE!!!!

"Out of the mouths of babes, comes the wisdom of ages." Phillip Boy ain't no baby, but this is the wisest, simplest, way out of the conundrum SVG has manufactured and giving the faithful fans what they deserve, real hope and a competitive team. I'm not saying this because it's inline with my beliefs (but perhaps I am), but because it makes sense. The madness created by narcissism leading our team is spelled out in this snippet regarding arguably the most important position on the floor; PG.
Because Jackson’s trade value is much lower than his actual value to the Detroit Pistons if his rehab goes well and he returns to the form of his breakout 2015-16 season, it’s not particularly likely that he’ll be moved unless a team in dire straits for a point guard is willing to make an overpay.
Jackson's trade value didn't plummet like a rock overnight, it was an engineered devaluation based on hand sitting and overvaluing his worth, much like what we're doing today..."if his rehab goes well and he returns to the form of his breakout 2015-16 season..." BULLSH!T and we all know it! Living on the false hope that he'll return to the singular decent season he gave us and that was 3 years ago is pure nonsense. In the minds of many that justifies having to be faced with the luxury tax, if we sign one of our better players, and stifling the progress of an entire team, simply because SVG says so. Waiting for another trade deadline is more wasted time and if his value is thru the floor now, what'll it be then?

Look at the players Phillip Boy suggests we hold onto and tell yourself, a ball hogging, gimpy kneed, asthmatic, PG is worth holding up their progress as players. This is the company line being sold, all the way to giving away or misusing the #12 pick.

[Phil-Good]

Embrace the rebuild. I could be wrong but I do believe if Drummonds had A PG who could really get him the basketball in the right place at the right time, Drummonds could be A all NBA player.

If It's up to me I keep Tobis Harris, Drummonds, Morris, Stanley Johnson, H.Ellenson, Marjanovich and the 12th Pick.

Everybody else is up for grabs.... FIRE SALE!!!!

[deusXango]

 

Has the league passed Drummond by and left SVG behind as well.  Apologies to DX, but I again ask the question, shouldn't we restructure, rebuild, rejigger the core??

BallinD, no apologies necessary as I've been campaigning for a restructuring of the core for the longest, but I don't think it's wise to go into rebuild mode, considering the age of our roster. I often feel like the last man standing when standing up for Drummond, but I'll get to the "whys" later; the league hasn't passed Drummond by because he's a piss-poor FT shooter, he hasn't been fully realized as the force he is and once he is, the league will be shocked. On the other hand, the game has passed SVG by! Look at who consistently out coaches him on a regular basis; look at his record as the Pistons coach, coaching players he's acquired, but we choose to hide his poor performance by saying his players are inherited...year after year.

When I talk about trading Reggie and Jon, I'm talking about restructuring our starting lineup, thus core. Oracle will probably disagree with my reasoning, but Ish is an upgrade at PG for THIS team because of his style of play, and without Leuer knocking around and in effect limiting Morris/Harris's contributions, I believe Ellenson is a much more valuable asset to the core; this is based on what I've seen, not what I've been told by SVG. Henry is a legit PF/C in todays league. The ages of Drummond, KCP, Harris, Ellenson, Johnson, and this years draft pick make for a core of young men that'll develop into a formable group in 2-4 years and until then, Ish Smith and Marcus Morris is all the veteran leadership we need!

In the case of Andre Drummond, I'm for holding onto him because he's not received any quality, tough love, knowledgeable, big man coaching since he's been in the NBA; given his size, end to end speed, quick hands and feet, and his extraordinary athleticism, I wonder how the astute fan can miss all the untapped possibilities, but stay focused on FT's. Like I've not witnessed any quality coaching for Drummond, I noticed he's played with ball dominate PG's also (the exception being Ish Smith). I wonder what Jason Kidd, Brad Stevens, Mike Budenholzer, or the grand old man Greg Popovich would do with a talent the caliber of Drummond? And that's to name a few of the modern, innovative, coaches, that're not stuck in past practices.

I hear the Pistons are shopping Jackson and Drummond; a team without both is a lottery team for years to come and that trade will only serve to buy time for SVG's dismissal. A team without Drummond will struggle also, but will serve to satisfy Drummond haters, on the other hand, a Jackson less led team would gel, make the playoffs, and challenge for an ECF appearance by getting through the second round. I'm getting a little wild so I'll briefly speak on some draft facts that're being overlooked.

Donovan Mitchell has developed a fan base already, based on his athleticism and long arms (potentially making him a great defender). He has no outstanding positional skills and long arms doesn't guarantee a great defender, just ask Reggie.

Luke Kennard has a fan base also, but is not athletic and possess "alligator arms" and poor defensive skills; the 12th pick for a lottery team to be spent on a bench player is too high, no matter how smart he is.

Justin Jackson is my personal favorite, so I'll defer to a wiser mind than I, BallinD, by saying simply "Pedigree!"

[Sparma]

"Overpaying"'s a contextual term. It can mean a bunch of things, some benign, some not. Maybe understood in one sense it doesn't even exist. Care needs to be taken in how it's used, so as to avoid equivocation.

Is AD overpaid? Well, in one sense no. He received an offer within the structure of the system and took it. Not sure a player can be overpaid in this sense: he took the offer that the market yielded.

Another sense of being overpaid might be that he earns, I don't know, maybe 500 times as much as a 1st grade teacher in this country. Should that concern us? Probably so, but it's not a typical focus for a basketball forum.

Or maybe he overpaid relative to the resources of his employer, Gores. Nah, I'm not bothered in that sense.

There are several other senses of being "overpaid" that could be explored, but I'm going to cut to the chase. One way of thinking about whether or not a player is being overpaid is to compare production (momentarily bracketing other things like promise, age, youth, fit, etc., all of which could probably be made to fit in a complex algorithm) to pay. What does the average SG scoring 13 ppg, etc, earn in the NBA? Variables can be added to make for sharper comparison.

This sense of under/ overpayment should concern us greatly because it has a ton to do with whether or not roster building succeeds. It's my understanding that Steph Curry has been grossly underpaid given his production. That's extremely important to GS, which was able to sign Kevin Durant as a result (in part), becoming maybe the most dominant team ever. When Steph gets paid market value this year, that's also going to matter greatly to GS, diminishing their roster building capability. On a lesser scale, Miami benefited hugely from being able to pay Ray Allen, what, vet's minimum for his valuable contribution.

Overpaying? We've got maybe the clearest case on our payroll. Josh Smith at, what, 5 mil per year is being grossly overpaid for his 0 contribution. That's something we should care about because it affects our ability to build the roster. Less straightforwardly, maybe Reggie's deal was roughly in line with performance (at least if we add promise and youth in that case), but now it looks like a serious overpay relative to performance and value to the team. That bugs me because it impinges, given the structure of the NBA, on our ability to build a good team.

Back to KCP. Given the alternative of getting nothing for a pretty good player, I think we pretty well need to pay up. But it's a dilemma, with unappealing (side) effects on both horns. At 20 mil+, I'm pretty sure he's going to be overpaid in comparison to similar performance around the league. This could be established as a fact through statistical analysis. Maybe such overpayment can't be helped. The system got us. We got ourselves with some questionable budget management. Should we care about overpaying in that sense? Yes, because it negatively affects our roster building capacity.

[BallinD]

Nobody in the finals and for the most part in the semifinals used a lot of center, and we all know the league is trending away from big men as small ball goes big and big ball goes pfffffft.  

Has the league passed Drummond by and left SVG behind as well.  Apologies to DX, but I again ask the question, shouldn't we restructure, rebuild, rejigger the core??

We know (or we should) we can't win with Dre sucking up cap space and unable to defend the post or play down the stretch of close games.  Now we see as clear as the day is long, that the Drummonds, the Hibberts, the goliaths of the past cannot dominate and even keep up in this new NBA.  Will we be left holding the bag?  Will we be the last team to adjust??  Can Ellensen be our small ball center. Is the laughingly named Lauri Markkanen available to us or can we get Porzingis?

[Oracle]

From his own man!!! 

Hope he's alright!

[Oracle]

I, in turn, feel misunderstood. I do think they pretty much need to sign him, this evidently in agreement with you. BUT, I think there's an enormous downside to doing so, both because it will put a grave pinch on our roster and because WE (rather than say the Nets) would be overpaying for his performance. I tried to establish the logical fallacy of equivocation that's common when asserting that if a player is offered something (eg the Nets offer KCP the max and the Pistons match), then it's market value, and it can't be overpaying, but was met with reiteration of the very proposition under debate (that is, begging the question)

@Sparma: I'm sorry if I implied that it couldn't be overpaying, it is, and generally that's been the history of the NBA, so I am a bit surprised that overpaying bothers anyone. Teams pay betting on the come, that the player will live up to the contract, so it's both the market value, the value of a player with promise, and overpaying, because he hasn't reached that level yet.

@DX: Yes that could be a consequence, but if you read the article, coming back with the same team could be radically changed by the Feb deadline, there will be many teams with large motivations to deal, we'll see how this shakes out. I bet the Rubio deal is still there for the taking.

I think I was the first or one of the first to mention S&T for KCP, not coming late to that party. As I recall you ridiculed me for the notion and wondered who we could possibly get to replace a KCP, "Our best player," according to you. Not buying it!

@Ballin: You may be correct, over time we all change based on current information, so I apologize, I do remember you saying that.

BTW, you're free to disagree that KCP was our best player, it's my opinion, so I should have said arguably, and there is a lot of room to argue that point.

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