Piston management should not get a free pass for their failure to get the team in a better draft position when they had the opportunity

[cool breeze]

How many of us fans who do not get paid to make basic sound decisions were begging Stan Van Gundy to recognize that his team was not good enough to make the playoffs as soon as early March. That is the time when he should have made the decision to place Ellenson into the rotation if not start him for the remaining games. Right up to the end of the season, the owner and the front office refused to admit the obvious. While other better NBA teams knew that this would be a strong draft and the only way to improve their teams would be to do everything possible to position their teams as high as possible, SVG's clowns decided to do the opposite and stay the course. Why would they do that? How could this head coach and team decision maker enjoy watching dysfunction and want to watch more of it right up to the end? We won't tank. We do not believe in tanking? Those were the comments that were made at the time. So our management team is so honorable unlike the teams they compete against that they were willing to position themselves just out of the "Tier 1 and Tier 2 framework that is described by ESPN Insider. Knuckle headed stubborn emotionally driven leaders will doom any organization. So how long will this go on? How many more seasons of complete dysfunction will be allowed by Tom Gores? Almost any GM on any other NBA team would have admitted the truth about the Pistons chances of success which were extremely low in early March and then announced that the team would go on a new course for the remaining games. This would have created at least some interest in the team. Fans would have been interested in seeing what Ellenson might do if placed in the starting lineup. How about starting Stanley Johnson at small forward or the 2 guard for the remaining games? Or maybe start Ellenson, Bullock, Johnson, Harris and Baynes using Harris as the point forward. There were several combinations that could have offered some excitement instead of staying with the same old dysfunctional player rotations. Detroit could have moved up as far as the 7th or 8th position in this draft. This was a huge mis calculation that cannot be ignored by the owner. He is surrounded by idiots. The other mis calculation was Piston management's failure to made a trade involving Jackson and Drummond before the trade deadline. It appears that offers were made and trade options were available. Failure to pull the trigger indicates to me that this Piston management team failed to identify the real potential of Jackson, Drummond and Pope over evaluating their value. Now we are stuck in the mud with the the same players that gave the team the record that got us the 12th pick. While other teams were frantically trying to move up in the draft during the season, our management team sat back real cocky and proud that they would not be considered tankers. Isn't that sweet? We do not have businessmen running this organization. We have amateurs making great sums of money who depend on smoke and mirrors to deflect criticism like the planted story about the coach getting a new dog.

What if Isiah Thomas had been in charge of the Pistons in early March. Say SVG had been fired before the trade deadline and it was now up to Zeke to change the course of Piston history. Is there any doubt that if Zeke had any offers he would have not traded Drummond and Jackson and tried to make a deal for KCP? Isiah Thomas spoke a lot on NBA TV last season. He knew the Piston players potential and saw the dysfunction. There would have been sweeping changes very quickly. He knew that we did not have the right players.

So my question is what in hell was SVG doing in practice and the games. Was he having a mental breakdown? How could anyone ignore what was going on in the games who knows basketball at all? The team chemistry was the worst in the league at the time. The offense was clearly not working at all. Piston defense was not good at all. What was it that made this Piston coaching staff and front office do nothing to attempt to change the course that continued to go downhill? This is very puzzling to me. How can anyone trust the people in charge to do the right thing or the smart thing? The Pistons are not going through growing pains. They are dead in the water. So enough of the stupid articles that all end with The Pistons are in a tough situation with few options available and a position in the draft that places them just outside the Tier 2 type players available in the draft. What is the only option left for this poor management team that has placed themselves in this position because of inept planning in this strong draft? Oh I forgot the only thing they can do now is trade the pick. After all the last two drafts have brought great disappointment so we don't want anymore disappointment. We need to secure the services of a older player past his prime who is another weak defender who at one time could shoot the 3 at a high percentage. How exciting! Shouldn't this coaching staff be held accountable for not developing or trusting those two first round draft picks like other NBA coaching staffs have done with their draftees? Is it the players or the coaches who are inept? Who can excel when the coaching staff encourages the point guards to dominate the basketball and not run a half court offense? Who can look good in SVG's offense other than the point guards and of course the center who features the baseline hook shot? Everyone else just needs to get out of the way. No wonder so many Piston players hate the thought of starting training camp next fall. There is nobody to blame other than the owner and the coaching staff for creating this mess.

[Murph]

It would be great if Frank Ntilikina somehow fell to #12. He reminds me of a bigger Dennis Schroder.

But if Ntilikina and the rest of the good PGs are gone, Kennard is probably the best consolation prize.

[Sparma]

Good to hear from you, Murph.

Sounds like good analysis to me. I agree with the one more year idea. Not a lot of options ready at hand anyway.

And I like the Kennard pick, even though that feels more like trying to hit a double than a home run (but then, how many times did Joe whiff going for the homer?). Maybe Mitchell would be the homer, at least as defender?

Trading Morris will be tough, I think, given that his contract's so team friendly on a team with lots of cap troubles.

I agree that the dog thing was way overdone by the media.  An attempt to draw in casual fans?

We do need more participants here.  FlyDog, Fennis Dembo, and Rett were fun loving guys who really added to the diversity of posts.  Haven't heard from Murph for a while, who's conistently outstanding.

Thanks Sparma.  I still look in from time to time, but my crystal ball has been very cloudy lately.  I don't feel like my observations have a lot of value added here lately.

My game plan was to keep Reggie Jackson, hope he recovers physically and returns to his old form, and redevelops the pick-and-roll chemistry he had with Drummond two seasons ago, and build around that foundation.  But as Don has pointed out many times, that foundation is built on sand.

Reggie was a shadow of his former self last season.  He's not as quick as he was before the injury, and he still can't shoot, which is a problem in today's NBA.   And Drummond appears to lack the mental wherewithal to make the necessary improvements to his defense and offense for that matter, not to mention free throw shooting.

And the players that SVG had collected to compliment the core all come with their own set of question marks.  KCP will command big bucks for his inconsistent shooting.  Marcus Morris is problem is the locker room.  Tobias Harris can't even start.  Jon Lauer should not be starting.  Stanley Johnson has been a big disappointment.  And SVG doesn't even attempt to develop Henry Ellenson.

On top of that, the draft looks bleak for the Pistons.  It appears that none of the excellent crop of PGs will be available at #12, so our choices are coming down to the lilly white Dukie, Luke Kennard, who might not be a good fit in the D, the 6'2 SG, Donovan Mitchell, who's even shorter than Ben Gordon, or a number of skinny 6'10 big men who will make Ellenson completely redundant.


So what to do?  At this point, I think SVG should give the Jackson-Drummond core one more year.  If they still can't return to form, then blow it all up at the end of this season.  But I hate the idea of blowing it up again, and beginning yet another 5 year rebuilding program, which is why I'd give them one more year, against all odds.

Draft Kennard and hope that he's the consistent outside shooter we've lacked since Billups and Hamilton, and hope that Pistons fans will somehow warm up to him.  Let KCP walk.  Trade Marcus Morris.  Start Tobias Harris for crying out loud.  And find a starting PF somewhere, whether it's Lauer, Ellenson or a free agent.  And then pray the Pistons can actually make it to the post season.

[cool breeze]

Just looking at the NBA trade rumor sites and could only find one short story involving the Pistons. If Drummond did have any value last season there are no longer any sparks flying after every GM in the league saw Whiteside tip in the winning shot over Andre Drummond. So the ship must have sailed and we will be watching Andre eating the Halo burger at halftime for years to come.

The news I found was more of the same. Because the last two first round picks failed to impact the Piston team as desired, our management team is looking to trade the 12th pick for a vet. Doesn't that reflect poorly on this coaching staff? Are they capable of integrating any new draftee into the rotation? Didn't they over evaluate the vets they signed and decided to play those vets instead of the young players? Stan Van Gundy wants that 8th position in the playoffs so bad he will sacrifice the future of our team. While Steve Kerr managed to bring in his rookie for a role in the finals, SVG is just not able to take a chance on the players he evaluated before the draft. If SVG trades the pick, and does not get another first rounder he should be fired. Does anyone disagree? That should be the last straw for the fans.

[cool breeze]

I agree that the dog thing was way overdone by the media.  An attempt to draw in casual fans?

We do need more participants here.  FlyDog, Fennis Dembo, and Rett were fun loving guys who really added to the diversity of posts.  Haven't heard from Murph for a while, who's conistently outstanding.

Thanks Sparma. I still look in from time to time, but my crystal ball has been very cloudy lately. I don't feel like my observations have a lot of value added here lately.

My game plan was to keep Reggie Jackson, hope he recovers physically and returns to his old form, and redevelops the pick-and-roll chemistry he had with Drummond two seasons ago, and build around that foundation. But as Don has pointed out many times, that foundation is built on sand.

Reggie was a shadow of his former self last season. He's not as quick as he was before the injury, and he still can't shoot, which is a problem in today's NBA. And Drummond appears to lack the mental wherewithal to make the necessary improvements to his defense and offense for that matter, not to mention free throw shooting.

And the players that SVG had collected to compliment the core all come with their own set of question marks. KCP will command big bucks for his inconsistent shooting. Marcus Morris is problem is the locker room. Tobias Harris can't even start. Jon Lauer should not be starting. Stanley Johnson has been a big disappointment. And SVG doesn't even attempt to develop Henry Ellenson.

On top of that, the draft looks bleak for the Pistons. It appears that none of the excellent crop of PGs will be available at #12, so our choices are coming down to the lilly white Dukie, Luke Kennard, who might not be a good fit in the D, the 6'2 SG, Donovan Mitchell, who's even shorter than Ben Gordon, or a number of skinny 6'10 big men who will make Ellenson completely redundant.


So what to do? At this point, I think SVG should give the Jackson-Drummond core one more year. If they still can't return to form, then blow it all up at the end of this season. But I hate the idea of blowing it up again, and beginning yet another 5 year rebuilding program, which is why I'd give them one more year, against all odds.

Draft Kennard and hope that he's the consistent outside shooter we've lacked since Billups and Hamilton, and hope that Pistons fans will somehow warm up to him. Let KCP walk. Trade Marcus Morris. Start Tobias Harris for crying out loud. And find a starting PF somewhere, whether it's Lauer, Ellenson or a free agent. And then pray the Pistons can actually make it to the post season.

Good to hear that you are still alive and well Murph!

You have identified the Marcus Morris impact on the Pistons several times before and nobody responded. But I agree with you that it is time to try to move Morris. A lot of Michigan Piston fans do not know anything about the Morris we knew when he played for the Suns. Morris has a strong personality. Drummond also beats to his own drum. The head coach is politically correct these days maybe because he remembers the criticism he endured when Dwight Howard left his old team those two players get a free pass to do as they wish. A lot of us want to see Harris starting at small forward. Morris has a trade friendly contract. Harris and a more confident Johnson might be a big improvement playing the 3. Keep the 12th pick or move higher. Deal with Philly to get one or two of their 2nd round picks.

The Drummond-Jackson pick and roll idea is dead in the water. Every NBA team knows that Detroit has ball dominate point guards who try to make that play work on almost every possession while the other 3 players cannot move without the ball for fear of screwing up this lame idea of making Jackson-Drummond the first and only option. Opposing teams all know that Drummond has no jump shot. He is a dunker and a baseline hooker. As the announcers stated in the post game show after the last finals game, players like Drummond do not fit the modern game. If a team is going to spend the bulk of their money on the center position, that center must offer a better skill set than Drummond will ever possess. As both Jackson and Drummond's trade value might now be close to non-existent, SVG will have the challenge of his coaching life to make those two players more marketable before the next trade deadline. Drummond starts tapering off around mid December or early January so that is why I was hoping at least one team would look at his rebounding stats and take a chance on him now. Jackson has a good heart but as you said there is something really wrong with him physically that might not be correctible. Just by losing Drummond's contract and letting Pope sign a big contract elsewhere, the Piston organization will be in much better shape in two seasons. The team can swallow Jackson's contract if necessary but two or three bad contracts will for sure drag the team into the toilet. I was thinking that the Baynes situation has not been resolved because perhaps SVG was trying with all his might to move Drummond this summer. Center -shooting guard are the two positions the Pistons should be trying to fill in this draft. At any rate SVG needs to pull off a miracle or this team will perform exactly the same next season. Brief upswing early in the season and then by mid December get ready for the crash landing. SVG will be long gone if that happens.

[cool breeze]

DX, this is what I mean, you can't advocate for a nut bag Bro, you need to know who he is!

First: Gods, Devils and Dysfunction: The Truth About Mark Jackson, take a gander at this

Humans create devils to explain the unexplainable tragedies in life. Some religions use Satan as an explanation for famine, natural disasters and diseases like cancer.

Mark Jackson turned out to be a metaphorical cancer, creating his own devils within the Warriors organization as he fought to rally his players around him. This is according to non-management sources from within the Warriors locker room (as recently as Saturday’s Game 7 season finale in Los Angeles) who expressed a desire to tell “the real story” behind Jackson’s dismissal. This is their account.

Don't believe that? He would leave the Warriors to do this:


Now on to the mighty Courtney Lee, a guy that has never produced at the level of KCP, a guy that, unlike KCP can't create his own shot, and people want this dude as a starter??? If you have a guy that can create his own shot and is coming off a rookie contract, you KEEP him, you don't move him... that's lunacy. Lee's numbers below. To be fair, Lee is a good shooter, so I would like him on my team, but not the starter.



I know listening to Don's 24/7 Doom and Gloom channel is entertaining, but put that stuff down, one misfire doesn't invalidate EVERYTHING we knew last season.

Facts still seem to bother you a lot Oracle. Listen to the players who are successful in the NBA rather than conjuring up a story line full of fiction. The NBA championship players revealed their secrets in the post game interviews along with two incredible players on the losing team James and Irving. Extreme hard work is easy for high character basketball players while hard work is something to avoid in the off season with less successful players. Without a high basketball IQ to start with along with God given quick recognition skills lacking in Drummond, Jackson and Pope will always leave the team they play on handicapped. The supporting players they play with will find it difficult to be successful and they will also suffer from boredom like the fans who watch the dysfunction. It is impossible for the coaches to have any positive impact with our Big Three. Do you think that James, Irving, or any of the Golden State players want to play with The Big Three? I think not based on what they said in their interviews after the deciding game. Lacking a high basketball IQ and quick recognition skills as an NBA player is like trying to blend into a chemistry class designed for chemical engineers in college when you flunked a chemistry class in high school. Players like Anthony Davis will make you look like a fool every minute you are matched up with him. Then of course the other puzzling factor for me relating to players like Drummond and Charlie V is the fact that they don't know that they have a low basketball aptitude and slow recognition skills and believe that in their specific case it is more important to "rest" than work hard. Labron left his final press conference after the last game saying that he will be back to work in two weeks. James said his extreme work routine has been part of his normal life style. It would be strange for Labron to rest over the summer like Drummond feels he and his teammates should be doing. So if you get excited about supporting players like Drummond that is pretty strange that is if you ever hope the Pistons at some point can become competitive in the league again. Have you forgotten how Pope, Drummond and Jackson finished the season? They were a big part of the team's failure. They were the key players. And it wasn't that they were not trying really hard to be successful Oracle. They tried hard or as hard as they could. Coaching was not a factor with them either. They lack high basketball IQs, quick recognition skills and the work ethic other top NBA players have. When you have a high basketball IQ and are born with quick situation recognition ability the game is more fun and when you go to the gym practicing on your weaknesses doesn't seem like hard work. You see it in those elite players. They love it because they have it and have developed their skill set to a razors edge.

I read where Avery Bradley has been talked about as a player Boston might deal. He has all three of those qualities that our Big 3 lack. I would want the Pistons to pay Bradley $20 million is necessary. But not Pope. And of course it was a huge blunder to ever sign Drummond last summer. Small ball is here to stay and big guys who have the weaknesses Drummond has is no longer valued. Drummond is worth around $10 mil at best right now. We are stuck with him. Why be stuck with KCP too? Our Big Three are chemistry killers who drag down the rest of the crew. And they are so boring to watch it is pitiful and painful to witness for the coaches and the fans. So good luck SVG and Mr. Gores. If big changes are not made it won't be because SVG doesn't want it to happen. There are no buyers. The cat is out of the bag. The Pistons are stuck. They were better off with Josh Smith. He was a better player than any of our Big Three over rated cream puffs.

[Murph]

I agree that the dog thing was way overdone by the media.  An attempt to draw in casual fans?

We do need more participants here.  FlyDog, Fennis Dembo, and Rett were fun loving guys who really added to the diversity of posts.  Haven't heard from Murph for a while, who's conistently outstanding.

Thanks Sparma. I still look in from time to time, but my crystal ball has been very cloudy lately. I don't feel like my observations have a lot of value added here lately.

My game plan was to keep Reggie Jackson, hope he recovers physically and returns to his old form, and redevelops the pick-and-roll chemistry he had with Drummond two seasons ago, and build around that foundation. But as Don has pointed out many times, that foundation is built on sand.

Reggie was a shadow of his former self last season. He's not as quick as he was before the injury, and he still can't shoot, which is a problem in today's NBA. And Drummond appears to lack the mental wherewithal to make the necessary improvements to his defense and offense for that matter, not to mention free throw shooting.

And the players that SVG had collected to compliment the core all come with their own set of question marks. KCP will command big bucks for his inconsistent shooting. Marcus Morris is problem is the locker room. Tobias Harris can't even start. Jon Lauer should not be starting. Stanley Johnson has been a big disappointment. And SVG doesn't even attempt to develop Henry Ellenson.

On top of that, the draft looks bleak for the Pistons. It appears that none of the excellent crop of PGs will be available at #12, so our choices are coming down to the lilly white Dukie, Luke Kennard, who might not be a good fit in the D, the 6'2 SG, Donovan Mitchell, who's even shorter than Ben Gordon, or a number of skinny 6'10 big men who will make Ellenson completely redundant.


So what to do? At this point, I think SVG should give the Jackson-Drummond core one more year. If they still can't return to form, then blow it all up at the end of this season. But I hate the idea of blowing it up again, and beginning yet another 5 year rebuilding program, which is why I'd give them one more year, against all odds.

Draft Kennard and hope that he's the consistent outside shooter we've lacked since Billups and Hamilton, and hope that Pistons fans will somehow warm up to him. Let KCP walk. Trade Marcus Morris. Start Tobias Harris for crying out loud. And find a starting PF somewhere, whether it's Lauer, Ellenson or a free agent. And then pray the Pistons can actually make it to the post season.

[Oracle]

I was on the fence at first, but this is 100% correct, the smart move is to pick wisely and keep it to develop.

Reality says that one or more of Reggie, Drummond, KCP or Harris and soon Morris will have to go. The salary numbers will be crazy, so much so that KCP's number will look cheap. Harris is at 16M, when he comes up, I don't want to think about that number, Morris will likely be coming in somewhere between 16-25M.

We need to develop rookie talent, that's why not having a 2nd round pick hurts so much. You need to keep moving youth through the pipeline to see who sticks.

This is significantly more important than any other time in NBA history since the salaries are getting out of reach(unless the NBA raises the CAP a lot).

The only partial silver lining is that other teams will feel the same pinch, but it's partial because whoever they let go will likely be too expensive to sign.

BTW, DX, there now appears to be a ton of stars available for the right price, this effect is starting to take hold.

I'm assuming Keith Langlois represents the party line.  He writes: "To deal the [12th] pick for an established player sounds good, but a team over the cap – and flirting with the tax line dependent on the Kentavious Caldwell-Pope final number – can only consider such a move in exchange for a franchise-altering piece, not just another complementary part. And what’s the likelihood that the 12th pick will net such a return? Slim. None? Yeah, closer to none."  

[Sparma]

I'm assuming Keith Langlois represents the party line. He writes: "To deal the [12th] pick for an established player sounds good, but a team over the cap – and flirting with the tax line dependent on the Kentavious Caldwell-Pope final number – can only consider such a move in exchange for a franchise-altering piece, not just another complementary part. And what’s the likelihood that the 12th pick will net such a return? Slim. None? Yeah, closer to none."

[Oracle]

DX, this is what I mean, you can't advocate for a nut bag Bro, you need to know who he is!

First: Gods, Devils and Dysfunction: The Truth About Mark Jackson, take a gander at this

Humans create devils to explain the unexplainable tragedies in life. Some religions use Satan as an explanation for famine, natural disasters and diseases like cancer.

Mark Jackson turned out to be a metaphorical cancer, creating his own devils within the Warriors organization as he fought to rally his players around him. This is according to non-management sources from within the Warriors locker room (as recently as Saturday’s Game 7 season finale in Los Angeles) who expressed a desire to tell “the real story” behind Jackson’s dismissal. This is their account.

Don't believe that? He would leave the Warriors to do this:


Now on to the mighty Courtney Lee, a guy that has never produced at the level of KCP, a guy that, unlike KCP can't create his own shot, and people want this dude as a starter??? If you have a guy that can create his own shot and is coming off a rookie contract, you KEEP him, you don't move him... that's lunacy. Lee's numbers below. To be fair, Lee is a good shooter, so I would like him on my team, but not the starter.



I know listening to Don's 24/7 Doom and Gloom channel is entertaining, but put that stuff down, one misfire doesn't invalidate EVERYTHING we knew last season.

[deusXango]

A couple of people have brought up Mark Jackson for coach, a certified nut job that brings nothing but dysfunction and drama... WTF?

My brother, my brother, my good brother Oracle, what exactly makes Mark Jackson a certified nut job? What dysfunction and drama did he bring to the Warriors? As I remember it, he had absolutely no problems with the players on the team, they were with management; he was doing street corner preaching during the off-season. That's called being an evangelist and taking his faith seriously; I guess that does qualify as being a nut job in todays wretched society (sunny California), where we don't believe in sh!t. He made a decision to run Monta Ellis off and turn the team over to Steph Curry, and we all see how that worked out..."The Splash Brothers." He gave Michigan States Draymond Green a chance to start and be an integral part of the team...did the Pistons pass on Green? I forget. Oh yeah, he was too small for a PF and too slow for a SF was the local medias reasoning and a lot on this forum went for that, hook, line, and sinker. In short, if that's what it takes to develop a winner here in Detroit, by making astute roster decisions and deploying an intelligent offense, then give me the certified nut with all his dysfunctional ways; it'll be better than the double speaking, genius, with the loosing record, who throws fits and players under the bus.

[Oracle]

This team has poor character? Did this just show up this season?

A couple of people have brought up Mark Jackson for coach, a certified nut job that brings nothing but dysfunction and drama... WTF?

Courtney Lee will make us forget about KCP, man, I couldn't stop laughing!

Maybe I'm missing something, have Bell Bottoms come back in style? Are tin foil hats normal fashion 

Seriously, I don't get this love affair with the near insane, walking wounded, guys just barely above scrub level, and guys that haven't been off the pine long enough to get all of the splinters out of their asses.

The good news for DX is that he's made me think that Justin Jackson may not be all that bad a pick as I originally thought.

[deusXango]

Great post Don!!! There's no way SVG can be defended after reading that, however; he's put the team together and paid everyone of them, but he can't coach them. He signed players without benefit of checking their characters, work ethics, or desires to win? Gores had nothing to do with that, it's been all Stan Van Gundy!

SVG fell in love with Jon Leuer and made a mockery of fairness; Drummond and Jackson get all the negative attention, but once you consider the overpayment and underperformance by Leuer, when there were options available, then you'll see that Van Gundy's problems go deeper than relying on an offensive scheme that doesn't fit the talent that he's assembled. He out and out dogged Stanley Johnson, and the neglect he showered Henry Ellenson with was down right criminal. He insulted the most talented and efficient scorer on the team buy taking his starting slot with no viable reasoning for doing so and then started talking about what a helluva 6th man he was...hell, Leuer was signed to be a 6th man, while Tobias Harris was a budding star.

Three years up the road, our top two highest paid players aren't worth a dime, the Pistons payroll is through the roof (top 5 in the NBA) and we can't get into the playoffs nor a decent lottery pick; we've got a RFA SG who hasn't proven sh!t on the pro level, but we're talking about signing him to a maximum contract, a level reserved for stars/superstars. The most controversial conversation lately has been, should we keep the #12 pick or trade it? And we wonder why the team is so lazy.

What's the direction of the team? When will we start building a winning culture? Will it ever stop being everyone's fault, but SVG's, when failure becomes so apparent that we can't look away? Isiah Thomas for president and Mark Jackson for coach.

[cool breeze]

I couldn't stop watching the individual Golden State players being interviewed last night. If you watched it then you would know what some of us have been saying as to what our players lack. Every player stated that nobody took a day off starting in mid summer of last year to accomplish their goal of winning the championship. It wasn't only Durant and Curry either but both made meaningful statements. They both said that it isn't enough to have outstanding talent. It takes a high basketball IQ and extreme hard work and unselfishness to win in the NBA. They both knew it but what is amazing is how even the bench players bought into this theme. Everyone worked their butts off. Some of the players could have made a lot more money if they had signed contracts with other teams but the desire to play with dedicated high basketball IQ players who have high character sold them for playing for much less money. Steve Kerr also kept emphasizing what it takes from a coaching standpoint. Steve said if you do not have the players any NBA coach will be fired within two seasons. He knows that it took extreme luck for him to have the honor to coach those players. Kerr stated that the blend of highly talented players who have high basketball IQ and also character as individuals who can focus on the goal and never stop working to achieve the goal was a fantastic thing to watch. The players would leave their families on holidays and come into the arena to practice. Some were surprised when every player showed up. Steve Kerr also made a point relating to coaching and one thing he does to help the players create the necessary team chemistry to function together at the highest level possible. StEVE KERR PLAYS ALL OF HIS PLAYERS. He doesn't put individual players in the dog house. When mistakes are made by a player all of his teammates support him including the coaching staff. That player then plays even harder so as to not disappoint his teammates. For me it was very uplifting as a fan to see those highly paid players have so much joy out of playing the game of basketball. Those players are much like that bond a lot of good high school basketball teams create. It is a beautiful thing and some of you know what I am talking about from your own experiences. All though the night the players and the announcers kept saying this result is what can happen if you do the right thing and play the right way. If you are not interested in those two things nobody in the world can make you better and you will keep on losing.

Meanwhile the Detroit Pistons have perhaps the worst team chemistry in the NBA now. There are players who dread coming back next fall. Those are the players who want to play the right way and do the right thing. Then there are players who think they have it all down or really could give a crap and just want the money and lifestyle. Those are the players who tell their teammates to just rest over the summer. It is surprising that the Piston coaching staff has survived the normal time period for coaches who have the opposite attitude of those Golden State players or players like Labron and Irving for Cleveland. Both of those Cleveland players are extremely dedicated and they provided details of their work ethic in each of their post game interviews. Right now Detroit does not have one leader type player in the roster who is powerful enough to get the others to have the desire to put in the hard work, do the right thing and play the right way. That is why we seldom see any player setting a screen for a teammates on the Detroit Piston team. Everyone is ball dominate. Nobody helps another teammate on defense. It is clear as a bell the gross difference between the winning players and the players who play for the Pistons. How the owner and the coaches can tolerate this nonsense is amazing. I think the owner knows very little about the game of basketball. But perhaps he still wants to micro manage his team. Or Stan Van Gundy is a complete fool to not rid the team of anyone with a big contract. The draft is the only way for Detroit to be successful. We need the right kind of players.

[cool breeze]

As we read more and more experts talk about trade rumors before the coming draft, the subject always comes up with the yarn that Piston management is testing the waters involving the possibility of trading Andre Drummond and Reggie jackson. So this statement is made to try to show Piston fans that Piston management is hard at work. Then the follow-up statement seems to always be that it won't be easy to shop Drummond and Jackson so it is more likely that Detroit will make a much smaller type of deal. How about at least one writer saying Piston management you are not working hard enough. Are you kidding yourselves? Is the truth really that nobody wants to touch Andre Drummond or Reggie Jackson? Who wants to play Andre Drummond $22 million plus this coming season and then be stuck with his contract beyond that point? Who would stick their necks out and do that if they are sane? Nobody would do it and the same is true relating to Jackson. So while some of us keep our fingers crossed we are the fools. Piston management has egg on their faces after building the payroll up to the boiling point. There is nothing to talk about with the exception of trading our 12th pick. This is the one thing that no fan wants. But this move is the only move that Stan Van Gundy can make. Some teams do want our 12th pick. This is a strong draft. However, now the spin placed in the homer press is that it would be smart to trade the pick for a warn out old pro who once had a history of making a high percentage of 3 point shots. We get a brand name even though that guy will be long past his prime.

More smoke and mirrors is in play now. Why is it in stone that there will not be one player available to the Pistons at the 12th pick who cannot make the Piston rotation next season? Just throw up your hands and give up. There is no chance that some team who gets the 12th pick will not secure the services of a player who has twice the value of any current player on the Piston roster. Why are we surrounded by idiots as Dr. Evil said in several movies? We need players who are young who have a chance to be on a winning team in 3 years. Instead we have reject vets. It is not a matter of adding just one more piece. Detroit is weak at every position. If they trade the pick and get no first round pick this season everyone should walk away from this team and pretend they do not exist. I can't believe that Stan Van Gundy would do it but with the leaking articles floating around almost everyday stating that might be the Pistons best option it sure looks like a sure bet. When the boat is sinking panic sets in and bad decisions are bound to happen. Detroit got themselves in a big hole by signing Jackson. The water filled up past the halfway point when SVG signed the resting Andre Drummond, Then when it was clear to anyone who watched the Pistons this season that all was lost relating to making the playoffs in early March, the team failed to play the young guys like Ellenson and tank. Now Piston management is shocked at finding out their weak position relating to finding out their players have zero value and all that is left is to trade the 12th pick. We will be reading several more articles in this regard. Detroit continues to shop Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson but it appears that they will make a lesser more prudent move. Oh yes this Piston management team is really smart. They will give away the 12th pick because that is all these idiots can do. There was a tiny bit of interest in Andre Drummond but the owner nixed that idea very quickly. He is friends with Andre Drummond. Who cares about creating a better team. Friendship between the owner and his players is more important. They are a family. We fans are not important but are still expected to purchase season tickets. Stan Van Gundy is caught in the middle but does make some cool money so who cares.

[cool breeze]

I agree that the dog thing was way overdone by the media. An attempt to draw in casual fans?

We do need more participants here. FlyDog, Fennis Dembo, and Rett were fun loving guys who really added to the diversity of posts. Haven't heard from Murph for a while, who's conistently outstanding.

to Oracle at exactly 6000 posts since counting started at this site.

WTF, we need you back!  You're next, 2 shy of 4000.

And I'm closing in on 1000.  This crew of Pistons should make it easy to make that number.  Plenty to analyze, sadly mostly in some form of handwringing.

Yes Sparma we need more participation on this forum. As will every organization the executives closest to the decision maker are YES men who withhold their real feelings for the sake of job security. Do posters care more than the typical fair weather Piston fan? There is no doubt that we all care a lot and want to enjoy watching good NBA players who play smart with great teamwork. That is all I want. It is great to win it all but I just want to enjoy a better product on the basketball court. The young people who are in high school have few role models on this team. Way back when, Dave Bing provided the electric spark that made kids go outside and play basketball in the snow if necessary. Since Billups was traded the Piston organization has slid downward so far in quality that some current Piston fans have no idea as to how bad this current team really has become. How the current coaching staff has avoided being fired is amazing. But I am not so upset that the head guy hasn't yet been terminated but for sure some of his assistants need to be replaced. When you go for three seasons without making even one player better, that should signal that change is in order. Are the current assistant coaches capable of helping the young players improve? Who is in charge of the offense relating to the assistants on this staff? I think it is Tim Hardaway isn't it? If so, why is it that both point guards fail to give up the basketball every often? Why do both point guards dribble too much and fail to get the first pass out earlier in the shot clock? Where is the head coach in all of this dysfunction? Is he watching the opposing team instead of his own? Very little makes sense from a strategy standpoint with either the Piston offense or defense. After three seasons of coaching why can't the team make the correct decisions  with defensive rotations especially defending the pick and roll play?

Some of us have questions that are not being answered. Instead we get the diversion involving the head coaches new dog. I love dogs but why is this news when the Pistons have just finished a season where the team was blown out so often in the last 3 months? Are the players simply not coachable players? Do the players lack good recognition skills? If so then there is nothing any coach can do for that at the NBA level. You don't develop quick recognition skills. You have it or you don't. If that is the case then why is there such a big delay in moving those players? That criticism should be placed in the lap of the GM. But then maybe the GM, President coach doesn't really make any player decisions. Maybe the owner has developed relationships with certain players that has poisoned the team chemistry and prevented the team from moving in the right direction. Questions-questions-questions. No answers have been provided yet. The sports reporters offer nothing. That is why this forum is so important Piston fans.

Those posters did make things interesting. Where did they go? Around draft time usually gets Piston fans excited more so than the regular season when the team performs like it has recently. So many of my long time friends who live in Michigan could give a hoot what happens to the Pistons and never watched one game last season.

For those who stay involved this is an important time where Piston management needs to rectify the current situation and get the team on a more positive path. We really do not have the top athletes or the smart tough minded basketball players yet. Management needs to make big adjustments with the roster not try to make players into something they are not. By taking action making smart decisions along with way and then getting lucky is what I am hoping with happen. This current group of players do not play well together. Everything looks like work for them instead of having fun playing together. That is the legacy of the 2016-17 Piston team. Anyone who feels differently didn't watch the games and has no basis to make an accurate assessment. Piston management has made some mistakes with their judgment on the players they selected to be the key players. Now will they admit their mistakes and attempt to salvage something or will they ignore the facts and come back to training camp as if last season never happened? The devil is in the details and the details reveal huge problems relating to basketball IQ, conditioning, lack of motivation to improve skill levels, and the most important for NBA players - lack of quick recognition and reaction on defense and offense. Is there a panic situation brewing within the management structure or coaching structure? Has Piston management found out that they really do not have any valuable assets and the average or below average roster players are too highly paid to allow for any discussion with other teams? If no trades are possible would Philly sell one or two 2nd round picks for cash? We need players who have potential at least to compete with the best players in two or three years. That is the best we can hope for now. The current roster has zero chance of success. Most of us know that so there is no doubt that Stan Van Gundy is feeling panic. He hates losing too. Is the owner standing in the way?

Piston fans will not get distracted by the dog story. The owner is going to have to face things once the ball is put in play at the downtown arena. If the stands are empty, he will get the message that the nonsense must end. Let Stan Van Gundy do his job.

[Sparma]

I agree that the dog thing was way overdone by the media. An attempt to draw in casual fans?

We do need more participants here. FlyDog, Fennis Dembo, and Rett were fun loving guys who really added to the diversity of posts. Haven't heard from Murph for a while, who's conistently outstanding.

to Oracle at exactly 6000 posts since counting started at this site.

WTF, we need you back!  You're next, 2 shy of 4000.

And I'm closing in on 1000.  This crew of Pistons should make it easy to make that number.  Plenty to analyze, sadly mostly in some form of handwringing.

Yes Sparma we need more participation on this forum. As will every organization the executives closest to the decision maker are YES men who withhold their real feelings for the sake of job security. Do posters care more than the typical fair weather Piston fan? There is no doubt that we all care a lot and want to enjoy watching good NBA players who play smart with great teamwork. That is all I want. It is great to win it all but I just want to enjoy a better product on the basketball court. The young people who are in high school have few role models on this team. Way back when, Dave Bing provided the electric spark that made kids go outside and play basketball in the snow if necessary. Since Billups was traded the Piston organization has slid downward so far in quality that some current Piston fans have no idea as to how bad this current team really has become. How the current coaching staff has avoided being fired is amazing. But I am not so upset that the head guy hasn't yet been terminated but for sure some of his assistants need to be replaced. When you go for three seasons without making even one player better, that should signal that change is in order. Are the current assistant coaches capable of helping the young players improve? Who is in charge of the offense relating to the assistants on this staff? I think it is Tim Hardaway isn't it? If so, why is it that both point guards fail to give up the basketball every often? Why do both point guards dribble too much and fail to get the first pass out earlier in the shot clock? Where is the head coach in all of this dysfunction? Is he watching the opposing team instead of his own? Very little makes sense from a strategy standpoint with either the Piston offense or defense. After three seasons of coaching why can't the team make the correct decisions  with defensive rotations especially defending the pick and roll play?

Some of us have questions that are not being answered. Instead we get the diversion involving the head coaches new dog. I love dogs but why is this news when the Pistons have just finished a season where the team was blown out so often in the last 3 months? Are the players simply not coachable players? Do the players lack good recognition skills? If so then there is nothing any coach can do for that at the NBA level. You don't develop quick recognition skills. You have it or you don't. If that is the case then why is there such a big delay in moving those players? That criticism should be placed in the lap of the GM. But then maybe the GM, President coach doesn't really make any player decisions. Maybe the owner has developed relationships with certain players that has poisoned the team chemistry and prevented the team from moving in the right direction. Questions-questions-questions. No answers have been provided yet. The sports reporters offer nothing. That is why this forum is so important Piston fans.

[cool breeze]

The rumor involving Detroit trading up with the Kings by offering the Pistons 2nd round pick from last season is pretty lame. Why would the Kings want a player that Stan Van Gundy doesn't want to bring back? Stan mentioned awhile back that this player had disappointed him relating to developing into a player he wants. Of course it seems that every player on the Pistons team is extremely valuable. This is the way things have been all these seasons where our team has been cannon fodder for the legit NBA teams.

As the Pistons lack talent and ability to compete with other NBA teams well it would seen that the answer would be to go out and take chances on players in the 2nd round. Philly wants to dump some if not all of their 2nd round picks. Why not get some? There are some good players who will not be drafted until the 2nd round. We have no 2nd round pick. Would it be a money factor as to why Detroit wouldn't jump at this opportunity?

[cool breeze]

to Oracle at exactly 6000 posts since counting started at this site.

WTF, we need you back! You're next, 2 shy of 4000.

And I'm closing in on 1000. This crew of Pistons should make it easy to make that number. Plenty to analyze, sadly mostly in some form of handwringing.

Yes Sparma we need more participation on this forum. As will every organization the executives closest to the decision maker are YES men who withhold their real feelings for the sake of job security. Do posters care more than the typical fair weather Piston fan? There is no doubt that we all care a lot and want to enjoy watching good NBA players who play smart with great teamwork. That is all I want. It is great to win it all but I just want to enjoy a better product on the basketball court. The young people who are in high school have few role models on this team. Way back when, Dave Bing provided the electric spark that made kids go outside and play basketball in the snow if necessary. Since Billups was traded the Piston organization has slid downward so far in quality that some current Piston fans have no idea as to how bad this current team really has become. How the current coaching staff has avoided being fired is amazing. But I am not so upset that the head guy hasn't yet been terminated but for sure some of his assistants need to be replaced. When you go for three seasons without making even one player better, that should signal that change is in order. Are the current assistant coaches capable of helping the young players improve? Who is in charge of the offense relating to the assistants on this staff? I think it is Tim Hardaway isn't it? If so, why is it that both point guards fail to give up the basketball every often? Why do both point guards dribble too much and fail to get the first pass out earlier in the shot clock? Where is the head coach in all of this dysfunction? Is he watching the opposing team instead of his own? Very little makes sense from a strategy standpoint with either the Piston offense or defense. After three seasons of coaching why can't the team make the correct decisions with defensive rotations especially defending the pick and roll play?

Some of us have questions that are not being answered. Instead we get the diversion involving the head coaches new dog. I love dogs but why is this news when the Pistons have just finished a season where the team was blown out so often in the last 3 months? Are the players simply not coachable players? Do the players lack good recognition skills? If so then there is nothing any coach can do for that at the NBA level. You don't develop quick recognition skills. You have it or you don't. If that is the case then why is there such a big delay in moving those players? That criticism should be placed in the lap of the GM. But then maybe the GM, President coach doesn't really make any player decisions. Maybe the owner has developed relationships with certain players that has poisoned the team chemistry and prevented the team from moving in the right direction. Questions-questions-questions. No answers have been provided yet. The sports reporters offer nothing. That is why this forum is so important Piston fans.

[Sparma]

to Oracle at exactly 6000 posts since counting started at this site.

WTF, we need you back! You're next, 2 shy of 4000.

And I'm closing in on 1000. This crew of Pistons should make it easy to make that number. Plenty to analyze, sadly mostly in some form of handwringing.

[Sparma]

When the trade deadline rumors emerged about Reggie, Rubio, as well as NY, I don't think the idea ever was that Reggie would be landing in NY. I agree that Reggie wouldn't be a good fit in the triangle, Don. If he could consistently find the open man early in the clock (necessary in the triangle) he would have been of much higher value to us to begin with. Now that he's struggling physically his style of play's become really inefficient.

I was just reading on the Hoops Hype site looking for any trade rumors involving the Pistons. Then I cam across one sentence that said it all. "Tom Gores highly regards Andre Drummond" so even though Piston management might say they are open to offers relating to trade involving Pope and Drummond it is not likely anything will happen. Now things make more sense to me at least. After watching dull boring low quality and ignorant basketball being played by our Piston team last season for most of the regular season games I couldn't imagine any Piston coach wanting to repeat that type of season again. This team played almost every game looking as if they had never played a game together before in their entire lives. It was like they were picking players in a pick up game on most nights. The team practices a lot but the coaches could make no impact on the final product. So tell me Stan Van Gundy wants to coach the same players again? No SVG wants to trade Andre Drummond, KCP and perhaps one more player before the season begins. He knows the same thing will happen again next year regardless of how Reggie Jackson performs. There is more to the downfall than Reggie Jackson.

Enter Tom Gores who has this special personal relationship with one or two or more of his players. Maybe he thinks that is important to get close and be open to players who can vent to him. Maybe Tom likes being close to young athletes and gets a thrill out of that type of thing. Maybe it make him feel even more important. What is might be doing is deadly for the success of the franchise. The owner has to give the coach complete authority to run the team. There is no way Stan Van Gundy has complete authority over Andre Drummond. No coach wants to be told by a player that he doesn't want to work with a shooting coach that was hired for the specific purpose of improving Andre Drummond's foul shooting percentage. No coach tolerates that nonsense when you have a highly paid player holding the NBA record for the worst free throw shooting percentage of all time. No coach wants to hear that Andre Drummond suggests his teammates rest during the summer after having such a season ending crash. He wants to hear that his big man is going to get to work learning how to play defense better. Instead perhaps Tom Gores is telling Andre you don't have to listen to SVG because I am the owner. You don't have to work on your defense. I think you play good defense Andre. And don't worry about being traded. We are friends.

This is not Stan Van Gundy's team. This is Tom Gores team. Mr. Gores is in love with Andre Drummond. Andre doesn't have to listen to his coach. All he needs to do is snuggle up to the owner who loves being loved. Isn't that sweet? So the big deal made when SVG was hired that he would be calling the shots is most likely not true. Tom has his nose in every facet of the franchise including who he will allow to be traded and which players are to be protected. If the coach SVG has the ability to make trades as the GM and President then there is no way that he would not be jumping on any trade offers involving Andre Drummond. "TOM GORES HIGHLY REGARDS ANDRE DRUMMOND". That says it all. Look forward to another boring season Piston fans but don't blame Stan Van Gundy. He is the politically correct owner pleasing employee who just wants to feed his family. No wonder Stan turns his back to the hardwood during games.

[cool breeze]

I was just reading on the Hoops Hype site looking for any trade rumors involving the Pistons. Then I cam across one sentence that said it all. "Tom Gores highly regards Andre Drummond" so even though Piston management might say they are open to offers relating to trade involving Pope and Drummond it is not likely anything will happen. Now things make more sense to me at least. After watching dull boring low quality and ignorant basketball being played by our Piston team last season for most of the regular season games I couldn't imagine any Piston coach wanting to repeat that type of season again. This team played almost every game looking as if they had never played a game together before in their entire lives. It was like they were picking players in a pick up game on most nights. The team practices a lot but the coaches could make no impact on the final product. So tell me Stan Van Gundy wants to coach the same players again? No SVG wants to trade Andre Drummond, KCP and perhaps one more player before the season begins. He knows the same thing will happen again next year regardless of how Reggie Jackson performs. There is more to the downfall than Reggie Jackson.

Enter Tom Gores who has this special personal relationship with one or two or more of his players. Maybe he thinks that is important to get close and be open to players who can vent to him. Maybe Tom likes being close to young athletes and gets a thrill out of that type of thing. Maybe it make him feel even more important. What is might be doing is deadly for the success of the franchise. The owner has to give the coach complete authority to run the team. There is no way Stan Van Gundy has complete authority over Andre Drummond. No coach wants to be told by a player that he doesn't want to work with a shooting coach that was hired for the specific purpose of improving Andre Drummond's foul shooting percentage. No coach tolerates that nonsense when you have a highly paid player holding the NBA record for the worst free throw shooting percentage of all time. No coach wants to hear that Andre Drummond suggests his teammates rest during the summer after having such a season ending crash. He wants to hear that his big man is going to get to work learning how to play defense better. Instead perhaps Tom Gores is telling Andre you don't have to listen to SVG because I am the owner. You don't have to work on your defense. I think you play good defense Andre. And don't worry about being traded. We are friends.

This is not Stan Van Gundy's team. This is Tom Gores team. Mr. Gores is in love with Andre Drummond. Andre doesn't have to listen to his coach. All he needs to do is snuggle up to the owner who loves being loved. Isn't that sweet? So the big deal made when SVG was hired that he would be calling the shots is most likely not true. Tom has his nose in every facet of the franchise including who he will allow to be traded and which players are to be protected. If the coach SVG has the ability to make trades as the GM and President then there is no way that he would not be jumping on any trade offers involving Andre Drummond. "TOM GORES HIGHLY REGARDS ANDRE DRUMMOND". That says it all. Look forward to another boring season Piston fans but don't blame Stan Van Gundy. He is the politically correct owner pleasing employee who just wants to feed his family. No wonder Stan turns his back to the hardwood during games.

[cool breeze]

I agree that stranger things have happened.

But we seem to have very different ideas of what it would take to get that #8. I think that maybe, maybe, our #12 along with Ellenson might convince Phil.

The Knicks are in serious rebuilding mode now. They're trying to acquire a second 1st rounder, not to get rid of the high pick they suffered so much to earn. As I remember, the Knicks were recently assessed as the most valuable team in the NBA; our money's worth far less to them than that hard-earned pick. They're trying to re-emphasize the triangle, something I doubt Reggie could run (they're interested in Rubio). I think they'd see that trade as our garbage for their gold.

That said, in one way I think there might be something to the proposal. Picks tend to be way overvalued in advance (gone are the days when 3 mil might get you a late 1st rounder). And I think our Reggie's going to come back to being a decent NBA player (maybe valuable off the bench). So, if Phil were somehow forced to make that trade, it might not turn out to be as lopsided as I see it now. Maybe it would turn out ok for the Knicks. But they're not doing it, even though it's true more surprising things have happened.

The Knicks are rumored to be interested in one of Portland's three 1st rounder. That might be a realistic target for us too, although I don't think we're in a position to help Portland's cap problem the way the Knicks evidently want to.

That is interesting, Deus, because if plausible it means that Phil has totally lost it, just as many Knicks fans think.

Just saw a report stating Pistons may be interested in trading their 12th to the Knicks for a vet player.  The only one that makes sense is Courtney Lee.  This would make KCP expendable and give us 10+ M to play with, like resigning Baynes.  It's a stretch and nothing is done but makes things interesting.  Thoughts?

Go Stones, I know this is out of left field, but what about Reggie Jackson for their #8? When/if he returns to form, as he and SVG have emphatically stated, will there be a talent the class of RJ available at #8? Those are my thought, albeit not very interesting.  

Sparma, if we offer to throw some cash NY's way, along with Reggie, to sweeten the deal, Phillip may go for it. SVG can't be accused of being a spendthrift and we can't be embarrassed for trying to be proacttive in the lottery draft market this year. If nothing else, #8 and #12, minus Reggie Jackson, would almost assuredly guarantee SVG see the end of his contract. The "Zen Master" would think he snookered us, if Jackson adapted to his offensive style of play.

Sparma the deal breaker along with Reggie's salary would be his lack of ability to run the triangle offense. Has Stan Van Gundy been forced to use the 1-4 offense because of so many players having low basketball IQs? That offense is not even run correctly very often. Without brains pure athletic ability will not win games. Of course the successful NBA players are those who have quick recognition skill sets relating to both offense and defense. This is one quality that GMs are placing an emphasis on relating to draft prospects. All of the NBA scouts who attend college games are tuned into how players minds work in real pressure situations. As we look at the finals teams where so many players have high basketball IQs, it is so much fun for me to see all of the players doing things for the benefit of their teammates. This mostly involves screening which we didn't see much of at all with our Piston players last season or the season before. I can't imagine that this was the way Stan Van Gundy wanted his team to perform. He is not a stupid man. Harris has shown his frustration on the court. He has quick recognition skills at least on offense. If you are playing basketball with dummies you will not have many moments where you feel basketball is really fun. It is all work with a sick feeling knowing that you have no chance of winning.

The number one offender which he cannot help is Andre Drummond who has perhaps the worst recognition skills on defense of any starting player in the NBA. I have watched him closely tuning everything else out in games to figure out why he is out of position 80% of the time and I see a blank look on his face that gives it all away. Somehow if Drummond remains on the team, SVG will have to figure out a more simplified rotation system on defense that will feature Andre's teammates telling the big guy what to do and when to do it. The coach cannot allow Andre to call switches in the paint. Those bad decisions he made last season cost Detroit so many mis matches with guards having to switch off to Andre's man within 3 feet of the basket. That just can't happen. The coach is not doing his job properly to ignore what went on. The players all know where the weak link in the defense is located. That is the big chemistry killer for the Detroit Pistons. Sorry dX for bringing Andre's name up again but if the coach won't identify and correct real problems with his team because he is so politically correct and protective, someone must call him out. I am calling out the coach not Andre Drummond. He cannot help who he is as a basketball player. He just was not blessed with quick recognition skills which is the most important attribute NBA players must have to play winning type basketball. That is why stats mean next to nothing relating to who wins and who loses in basketball.

[Sparma]

I agree that stranger things have happened.

But we seem to have very different ideas of what it would take to get that #8. I think that maybe, maybe, our #12 along with Ellenson might convince Phil.

The Knicks are in serious rebuilding mode now. They're trying to acquire a second 1st rounder, not to get rid of the high pick they suffered so much to earn. As I remember, the Knicks were recently assessed as the most valuable team in the NBA; our money's worth far less to them than that hard-earned pick. They're trying to re-emphasize the triangle, something I doubt Reggie could run (they're interested in Rubio). I think they'd see that trade as our garbage for their gold.

That said, in one way I think there might be something to the proposal. Picks tend to be way overvalued in advance (gone are the days when 3 mil might get you a late 1st rounder). And I think our Reggie's going to come back to being a decent NBA player (maybe valuable off the bench). So, if Phil were somehow forced to make that trade, it might not turn out to be as lopsided as I see it now. Maybe it would turn out ok for the Knicks. But they're not doing it, even though it's true more surprising things have happened.

The Knicks are rumored to be interested in one of Portland's three 1st rounder. That might be a realistic target for us too, although I don't think we're in a position to help Portland's cap problem the way the Knicks evidently want to.

That is interesting, Deus, because if plausible it means that Phil has totally lost it, just as many Knicks fans think.

Just saw a report stating Pistons may be interested in trading their 12th to the Knicks for a vet player.  The only one that makes sense is Courtney Lee.  This would make KCP expendable and give us 10+ M to play with, like resigning Baynes.  It's a stretch and nothing is done but makes things interesting.  Thoughts?

Go Stones, I know this is out of left field, but what about Reggie Jackson for their #8? When/if he returns to form, as he and SVG have emphatically stated, will there be a talent the class of RJ available at #8? Those are my thought, albeit not very interesting.  

Sparma, if we offer to throw some cash NY's way, along with Reggie, to sweeten the deal, Phillip may go for it. SVG can't be accused of being a spendthrift and we can't be embarrassed for trying to be proacttive in the lottery draft market this year. If nothing else, #8 and #12, minus Reggie Jackson, would almost assuredly guarantee SVG see the end of his contract. The "Zen Master" would think he snookered us, if Jackson adapted to his offensive style of play.

[deusXango]

That is interesting, Deus, because if plausible it means that Phil has totally lost it, just as many Knicks fans think.

Just saw a report stating Pistons may be interested in trading their 12th to the Knicks for a vet player.  The only one that makes sense is Courtney Lee.  This would make KCP expendable and give us 10+ M to play with, like resigning Baynes.  It's a stretch and nothing is done but makes things interesting.  Thoughts?

Go Stones, I know this is out of left field, but what about Reggie Jackson for their #8? When/if he returns to form, as he and SVG have emphatically stated, will there be a talent the class of RJ available at #8? Those are my thought, albeit not very interesting.  

Sparma, if we offer to throw some cash NY's way, along with Reggie, to sweeten the deal, Phillip may go for it. SVG can't be accused of being a spendthrift and we can't be embarrassed for trying to be proacttive in the lottery draft market this year. If nothing else, #8 and #12, minus Reggie Jackson, would almost assuredly guarantee SVG see the end of his contract. The "Zen Master" would think he snookered us, if Jackson adapted to his offensive style of play.

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