Proposal: focusing on value players

[Sparma]

The improbable luck of landing at #5 three years running combined with horrible roster construction leaves us facing steep odds to becoming a contender, or even just good.

I've described my proposed solution before: hunting for value up and down the roster.  I've suggested using a formula such as money spent per unit of PER (x minutes) as a guide.

In effect, my proposal's just applying a commonsensical economic model to the project of building a strong NBA franchise. Weirdly, such an approach is distant from what Weaver's done so far, e.g. in buying out vet players like Mike Muscala who are helping your team. But a value-oriented approach would be a far more effective way to build the roster than whatever Weaver's been trying thus far. Neither does it seem to be where we're headed, if there's something to the talk of trading a ton for Brandon Ingram who'd be in his last year, in need of being signed to an enormous contract.

I see three main places to look for value, two of which are obvious:

1) working hard at developing promising and already somewhat productive players on rookie deals.  Nuff said.  I don't understand the rush many seem to feel to jettison Duren.  It's one thing to bring in Sarr if you land at #1, but Duren (depite his serious deficiencies on D) is a guy who's shown a lot at a really young age.  I'd be slow to unload him for a guy like Hartenstein who's a better fit but far more expensive, for us (as opposed to the Knicks) likely well over 20 mil per year. Much as I like Hartenstein I doubt he could sustain value beyond the contract that we would need to give him.

2) fostering excellent players on the "fun" rookie max, Cade being our upcoming example.  Ordinarily, these would be acquired through the draft.
The trade route customarily doesn't work so well in acquiring max/ near max players (unless a great player's forcing his way to a certain market, something I can't remember ever happening for Detroit).  Example: Brandon Ingram's rumored to want 50 mil for at least a three year deal.  That's not a "fun" max.  That's a dubious use of your resources, if you can even get in to sign given that he'd be coming in on a 1 year expiring.  The NBA's worked very hard to discourage years of tanking (crime doesn't pay, they say!), with the Pistons as the most gruesome example. The NBA's got a weird thing going with max contracts: the value of some players, like LeBron, perpetually exceeds the cost of their max contracts, whereas the value of another large set of players doesn't match the max cost. Steer clear of the latter set. Trae Young, for instance would inject instant offence in Detroit, and that would be exciting, but he's not worth the cost of his deal. If you can bring in a young Haliburton as Indiana did (headed toward the max at that time), do it every time you can. More realistic suggestion: draft well.

3) Thirdly, I'd like to see George Allen's "over the fill gang" model with the NFL's Washington team resurrected in the NBA, with a modification clarified below.  Some vets, like LeBron, will earn a ton even after a tremendously long time in the league (and I'd be happy for the Pistons to sign him, but that ain't happening).  Generally, those max/ near max vets with waning production would be ones I'd want to avoid, or at least not give up tremendous resources to acquire.  Pretty often though, valuable veterans are available at reasonable cost.  Up to now, they've often had their contracts bought out by their team, and they catch on paying for another team that picks up a bit more than the minimum.  The new CBA, as I understand it, makes it much harder for the rich to get richer in that fashion; a woeful franchise like the Pistons, with lots of money to spend, will have plenty of opportunities, even if not for the biggest names.  There can be real value in lesser names.  Mike Muscala's an example from this past season.  Murph recently mentioned Delon Wright; it looks like his contract may be up.  He could be a value deal.  On the other hand, even an aging Tobias Harris could help us on the court, but he's likely to be overpriced (maybe less so after lousy playoffs?).  Pass, certainly if the deal gets up around 30 mil that's been rumored as a possibility.

Clarification: I believe that it's entirely possible both to focus on value among youngsters and with aging vets.  Late in his career, Allen really concentrated on vets, trading a bunch of draft picks for vets, several of whom had played for him with the Rams.  That approach contributed hugely to reaching (albeit losing) a Super Bowl.  But Allen, as young defensive wiz and personnel guy with the Bears, evidently was the mastermind behind Chicago loading up on young talent, including TE Mike Ditka, and later fellow rookie Dick Butkus and Gale Sayers.  The current NBA is a whole different thing than the NFL back then, but I believe a multi-dimensional value seeking approach could still play dividends, especially for a team like a Pistons that is in dire straits.

All that said, you'd still need to luck into a star around Cade.  There's no substitute for genuine star power.  But a sensible economic approach would make up for a lot of bad luck.

[Go Stones!]

The new HOBO hire will bring a different angle to the rebuild. We need to be careful what we ask for.

Yeah, Monty was not an ideal coach this last year, however, he has been kicked in the @$$ a few times over the last couple years...fired, his wife's illness, etc. I wonder if he recovered yet psychologically yet. I'd like to think the best for him.

The draft is not deep, or spectacular. Maybe consider trading the first pick and move down to multiple first-round picks? Weaver has found value in the past.

What we need for the free agency period is a solid youngish player with Allstar potential at a reasonable contract. Players like Siakam, OG Ananoby, should be considered, if available. They must also have 2-way potential, or we are going in the wrong direction. Look at Trae Young for an example of what could happen. Don't trade young players with potential.

At some point, Gores needs to just pay for a couple all-star potential players and start paying taxes for going over the tax apron.

All this just needed to be said.

[Sparma]

Good post, Murph.  

I was all in on the rebuild, but they've handled it very poorly. A major concern I've had for a while has been the poor roster construction around the youngsters, as well as shaky, or at least erratic, resource management.  Have to agree that parts of the solution were already in house (although I guess we ended up, indirectly, with Duren due to the Grant trade).

Grant, Plumlee, and Wright each did very well here.  Each one of them, judged by PER, played their best, or just about, in Detroit! Grant easily had his best PER year here (16.9), and his second year here was very close to his second best overall.  Sticking with PER, his career average is at 14.2, below league average (15), indicating to me that he's not a value player now. Bringing the eye test to mind, he was tremendous at creating plays to the basket, but the synergy with the youngsters wasn't great.  Weirdly, he didn't mesh that well with the long departed Saddiq Bey or, more importantly, with Cade.  

Delon Wright did extremely well here, given modest expectations, very nearly peaking at PER (16.5) while in Detroit.  My recollection is that he did a bit of everything, ball-handling, passing, shooting, playing some D. In addition, he appeared to have a great attitude. I was sad to see him go, even though it turned out that Joseph was a competent replacement.  

Mason Plumlee was the biggest puzzler to me, with an excellent PER 18.7 while in Detroit. That puts him in the ballpark of a borderline All Star. My recollection is that only Piston Cs Lanier and Drummond had higher career PERs, with B. Laimbeer and B. Wallace both lower (as well as HoF big Rodman).  Clearly, PER doesn't tell the whole story, but still....  What I loved about Plumlee while here was that he was an excellent secondary passing hub at the top of the key.  He also was uncanny with reverse dunks, indicating his ability to operate in tight spaces.  He arrived in part due to Weaver taking on a ton of dead money (Dedman?).  It didn't shock me when he was traded, but it did shock me that the Pistons had to give up draft capital to exile him to the Hornets.  He didn't do so well away at first, but then hit his PER peak with two teams. He could have remained as a strong rotational big, even if not the top of the line starter.

Big day on Sunday.  Mother's Day, yes, but also the lottery drawing at 3 pm Eastern.  Poor draft class, I hear, but there will be some future All Stars available at the top, for those who pick wisely, or luckily.  I'm all in on Sarr at this point.

Since we might be ending the total rebuild soon, let’s look back on the free agent signings that we should have kept, and who could have helped us win games.  

We’ve had a lot of accomplished veteran free agents during this dreadful losing streak, going on 5 years now.  Derrick Rose, Bojan Bagdanovic, Alec Burks, Hamidou Diallo and Cory Josesph all come to mind, as having all played well here.  

But the3 guys I thought were great locker room presences and good on both ends of the court were Jeremi Grant, Mason Plumlee and Delon Wright.  In hindsight, we should have retained those players.  They would have provided mentoring, and a veteran strong framework that the rookies and young players could have operated in.  With those guys, rebuilding process would have been much shorter and shallower.

[Murph]

Since we might be ending the total rebuild soon, let’s look back on the free agent signings that we should have kept, and who could have helped us win games.  

We’ve had a lot of accomplished veteran free agents during this dreadful losing streak, going on 5 years now.  Derrick Rose, Bojan Bagdanovic, Alec Burks, Hamidou Diallo and Cory Josesph all come to mind, as having all played well here.

But the3 guys I thought were great locker room presences and good on both ends of the court were Jeremi Grant, Mason Plumlee and Delon Wright.  In hindsight, we should have retained those players.  They would have provided mentoring, and a veteran strong framework that the rookies and young players could have operated in.  With those guys, rebuilding process would have been much shorter and shallower.

[Go Stones!]

I think that's too much, Stones, but maybe I'm not adjusted to current astronomical salaries.

Looks like the NBA average/ mid-level exception is c. 10.5 mil, so the amount you mention would be below league average.

Wiseman's gotten better this year, but remains a lousy defender.  Whereas before this season, I thought he was fighting to stay in the league at all, I now think he's earned a spot in the league.

I continue to see him as a situational giant, more than a true back up center.  Plug him in selectively, and give him more minutes when needed.

It looks like the NBA minimum for players with 3 years of experience is c. 2 million.  

Maybe 5 mil would be ok with me for Wiseman.  Honestly though, even though I'm on board with a young roster I'd rather explore signing Drummond for that kind of money.  Mike Muscala's not really a center, although he can put in some minutes there, but he too would be a preferred target for me; he actually made the team better in the short time he played here.

I'm all for maintaining a long term perspective and featuring young players.  My biggest worry with Wiseman with the Pistons is that he'll continue to be handed more minutes than he's earned.  It may be best for all concerns that he move on, getting paid a low wage by NBA standards to play the minutes he's earned.   
 

Wiseman only gets a 7.7M offer since he didn't qualify for starting criteria. Is this worth it?

I think 7.7M is adequate for a center who just turned 23 and only played 147 games so far. He will still improve and has just now been given a chance. I'm not a huge fan, but I think it is worth that.

[Sparma]

I think that's too much, Stones, but maybe I'm not adjusted to current astronomical salaries.

Looks like the NBA average/ mid-level exception is c. 10.5 mil, so the amount you mention would be below league average.

Wiseman's gotten better this year, but remains a lousy defender. Whereas before this season, I thought he was fighting to stay in the league at all, I now think he's earned a spot in the league.

I continue to see him as a situational giant, more than a true back up center. Plug him in selectively, and give him more minutes when needed.

It looks like the NBA minimum for players with 3 years of experience is c. 2 million.

Maybe 5 mil would be ok with me for Wiseman. Honestly though, even though I'm on board with a young roster I'd rather explore signing Drummond for that kind of money. Mike Muscala's not really a center, although he can put in some minutes there, but he too would be a preferred target for me; he actually made the team better in the short time he played here.

I'm all for maintaining a long term perspective and featuring young players. My biggest worry with Wiseman with the Pistons is that he'll continue to be handed more minutes than he's earned. It may be best for all concerns that he move on, getting paid a low wage by NBA standards to play the minutes he's earned.  
 

Wiseman only gets a 7.7M offer since he didn't qualify for starting criteria. Is this worth it?

[Go Stones!]

Wiseman only gets a 7.7M offer since he didn't qualify for starting criteria. Is this worth it?

[lemonpen]

Is Gores looking for a "Hatchet Man" to insulate himself from the totality of his own poor decisions.  Someone to fire Mr. XY&Z for reasons other than the owners ego is too bruised to be further outed as having hired everyone AND erected this failing structure.  Who knows.

[lemonpen]

Vince Goodwill, formerly a Pistons beat writer, was interviewed on the pre-game show.

What I hear as the principal theme echoes JE3 (cited before by me): the Pistons will search for a Prez of Ops with decision making powers both over the GM and coach.  

That could lead to the firing of Weaver, but need not, as I hear Goodwill (and JE3 earlier).  My guess is that Weaver gets a bit more time, under great pressure to show results.

(Comment: that's not the way to go in my opinion: a Weaver eager to empty his clip, as he said before, doesn't need added incentive to act recklessly.  For me, an example of that would be trading Ivey & our very high pick for a good, but limited, vet.)

What's most surprising to me is what Goodwill conveys regarding Monty, that's determining his future will likely involve a conversation in which Monty's commitment to a young roster will be gauged, as well as his fit with a possibly much more veteran roster built around Cade.  

Goodwill seems pretty casual about trading even a first pick, partly because he says it's not a good draft.

(Comment: Such a trade may not be a bad idea in principle, but I'm skeptical that they could line up an actual trade that would make that worthwhile, especially if the Pistons are perceived to be a desperate team (which they are)).

Interesting speculations by Goodwill, who knows his stuff.  

Change is on the way.  Unfortunately, I foresee a floor raising, but ceiling lowering, summer.  Hope I'm wrong.

What's one more decision maker. Let's raise the count to 6. There is already one finger pointing down from the top and four fingers pointing back.

[Sparma]

Vince Goodwill, formerly a Pistons beat writer, was interviewed on the pre-game show.

What I hear as the principal theme echoes JE3 (cited before by me): the Pistons will search for a Prez of Ops with decision making powers both over the GM and coach.

That could lead to the firing of Weaver, but need not, as I hear Goodwill (and JE3 earlier). My guess is that Weaver gets a bit more time, under great pressure to show results.

(Comment: that's not the way to go in my opinion: a Weaver eager to empty his clip, as he said before, doesn't need added incentive to act recklessly. For me, an example of that would be trading Ivey & our very high pick for a good, but limited, vet.)

What's most surprising to me is what Goodwill conveys regarding Monty, that's determining his future will likely involve a conversation in which Monty's commitment to a young roster will be gauged, as well as his fit with a possibly much more veteran roster built around Cade.

Goodwill seems pretty casual about trading even a first pick, partly because he says it's not a good draft.

(Comment: Such a trade may not be a bad idea in principle, but I'm skeptical that they could line up an actual trade that would make that worthwhile, especially if the Pistons are perceived to be a desperate team (which they are)).

Interesting speculations by Goodwill, who knows his stuff.

Change is on the way. Unfortunately, I foresee a floor raising, but ceiling lowering, summer. Hope I'm wrong.

[Murph]

So once UConn fired Kevin Ollie, it took them about 10 years to rebuild the program that Ollie ruined.  Now with Danny Hurley, they’ve won back to back National Championships.

Kevin Ollie???  Phil please…

Did anybody see how Kevin Ollie out coached Monty Williams the other night?

Looks like Tom should have let Troy Weaver do his job but you know how that goes!

Let's hope for the number 1 pick and then trade options. Major trade options. And to walk away with who you really want in this draft. Don't care if it's a Center or Guard. Just a impact player.

Go Pistons!

[Murph]

So the rebuild is over? After 5 years of losing, you are now happy with the worst team in franchise history? Are you insane?

"Phil…you were the single loudest advocate of a top down rebuild.  Why are you abandoning your position now?  Are you tired of losing?

I’m tired of losing also. And no, these total rebuilds don’t work.  They just turn your team into a perennial loser."


I was all the way down for the rebuild.

But it's done!  

You got Cade, Duren, Thompson, Stewart etc....

The rebuild is over!! The hard part is over!!

Now you just adding the right guys to it!

I think the rebuild was the correct move to make. Now the kids have to learn how to win. It will happen!!

[Phil-Good]

Did anybody see how Kevin Ollie out coached Monty Williams the other night?

Looks like Tom should have let Troy Weaver do his job but you know how that goes!

Let's hope for the number 1 pick and then trade options. Major trade options. And to walk away with who you really want in this draft. Don't care if it's a Center or Guard. Just a impact player.

Go Pistons!

[Go Stones!]

Did anyone else see the app article that stated Wiseman didn't hit the starts or minutes to earn his qualifying offer amount of 15.8M? That he is eligible for half that? I can handle 7.9M for a backup or 3rd center on this team. He does have upside for that amount.

I wonder if M.Flynn has the same situation with his 5.8M. I can't imagine he made the starts or minutes.

[Sparma]

What to do when (with four games left) you've lost 5 games for each win and you've experienced a 28 game losing streak, that in spite trying to win?

You change.

I'd posted earlier about a JE3 speculation about the future (Prez over Weaver to come?  Monty may well be out?) that I learned about indirectly (the original is behind a paywall).  Now I see various posts that track back to Jake Fischer who reports that Monty's not receptive to a buyout.  But why would that even be a topic unless the possibility had been broached?

My predictions, drawing inferences from various sources: 1) Weaver will be retained (for now), but demoted, with 2) a new Prez of operations who will clearly be highest in command, other than Gores, who will be able to at least veto roster proposals by Weaver and Tellem, 3) Monty will be fired at great expense to Gores (and, speculating, it will eventually come out that Cade is ok with that move, in spite of initial protestations), 4) Gores will apologize for overstepping his authority with respect to Weaver's coaching preference last summer (accounting in part for Weaver staying on, in diminished capacity), 5) Gores will announce that he plans to retreat further from decisions regarding the construction of the team (distancing himself, implicitly, from any future type of Blake trade) and the coaching staff, and 6) the new Prez (Bob Myers??) will have significant say regarding the new coach, so that (#4 notwithstanding), Weaver proposes, but the new Prez disposes.

[Phil-Good]

"Phil…you were the single loudest advocate of a top down rebuild. Why are you abandoning your position now? Are you tired of losing?

I’m tired of losing also. And no, these total rebuilds don’t work. They just turn your team into a perennial loser."


I was all the way down for the rebuild.

But it's done!

You got Cade, Duren, Thompson, Stewart etc....

The rebuild is over!! The hard part is over!!

Now you just adding the right guys to it!

I think the rebuild was the correct move to make. Now the kids have to learn how to win. It will happen!!

[Sparma]

The total rebuild has gotten tougher over the years, partly because of the funky lottery odds (a terrible Wiz team has a 20% chance to land on #6), partly because, nevertheless, each year several teams seem happy to dive to the bottom.

There have been horribly long stretches of being bad due to incompetence and bad luck, the Clips of yore come to mind, but I believe we take the cake in driving a planned "restoration" farther and farther into the ground. OKC was always going to ascend because of Presti's a ruthless genius even in an environment that doesn't draw NBA stars, but I don't think Orlando, Minnesota, or Sacramento are all that well run, or even well run at all, but they've all experienced a resurgence. Even Houston. It's really again the odds to go from bad to terrible to terribler over a stretch of several years. There's a kind of talent to do that, especially when you've landed a franchise player, albeit a fragile one.

Did anyone recently read JE3 behind the Athletic firewall? His piece as conveyed by Ku at Locked On didn't come through clearly, but it sounds like Gores may be inclined to bring in a President of Operations to whom Weaver, holding on to his job for a bit, would be answerable. I'd rather see Weaver just go, but if that's not going to happen a restructuring would be an improvement.

Phil…you were the single loudest advocate of a top down rebuild.  Why are you abandoning your position now?  Are you tired of losing?

I’m tired of losing also. And no, these total rebuilds don’t work.  They just turn your team into a perennial loser.

Has anybody Seen Jaden Ivey???

Anybody! The kid who finished up his rookie season is GONE!

The player that's left over is a shell of himself!
No impact, no clutch ability, zero ability to shoot, no confidence, no anything!!

Jaden Ivey has been a straight G League player this season.

And don't blame Monty Williams! Ivey starts and plays 30 minutes every game!

Jaden Ivey is one of the main reasons why the Pistons are terrible this season!

Nobody would have known Ivey would be a straight BUST!

And that's what he is a BUST! Officially!

[Murph]

Phil…you were the single loudest advocate of a top down rebuild.  Why are you abandoning your position now?  Are you tired of losing?

I’m tired of losing also. And no, these total rebuilds don’t work. They just turn your team into a perennial loser.

Has anybody Seen Jaden Ivey???

Anybody! The kid who finished up his rookie season is GONE!

The player that's left over is a shell of himself!
No impact, no clutch ability, zero ability to shoot, no confidence, no anything!!

Jaden Ivey has been a straight G League player this season.

And don't blame Monty Williams! Ivey starts and plays 30 minutes every game!

Jaden Ivey is one of the main reasons why the Pistons are terrible this season!

Nobody would have known Ivey would be a straight BUST!

And that's what he is a BUST! Officially!

[Sparma]

Living in Georgia for a couple of years, I again contemplated making the c. 90 m. trip to the Hawks arena, but didn't. Last time, I missed Cade's 43 point outburst, this time an NBA record of the guy with the lowest average scoring 50.

Concerning Ivey: what was exciting last year is that he got steadily better in Cade's absence, even growing into a distributing role. His scoring % at the rim was poor, but that improved for a good portion this season. All downhill from then. I hope he can have a huge game at the end here. At this point, I think he needs to earn his minutes (but not in favor of the likes of Killian again!!) and I'll re-assert that the 6th man role may be where he can be most valuable. He's been discouraging this year in that he's stagnated, at best. Checking though, I see that his PER's up slightly from last year, from 12.1 to 12.4. Could he fit acceptably with Cade, yes, but optimally, no.

I'd keep him (he's got very limited trade value now, I'd think) and provide him with opportunities, but in his third season I'd definitely put him in the "Show Me" category. I continue to think even a guy like Killian may yet pull it together at age 27-28, and be a solid player, but that doesn't mean a prospect like him should get the massive opportunities that Monty afforded him. In Ivey's case, Monty may have had the right idea with bringing him along slowly, but, unfortunately, his plan just hasn't worked.

Might the Pistons have a little bit of a run in them, say 3-3, down the stretch? In the olden days, under SVG, they made a tradition of worsening their draft prospects in the last week, by going 4-2 or so. The schedule, including the Nets, Grizzlies, Bulls, and Spurs, doesn't exactly consist of a Murderers' Row. I just hope they hold on to that 1.5 game lead on the Wiz, and a guaranteed top 5 draft pick.

Following the box score early last night, I couldn't figure who would score for them (with Cade out), if not Ivey. Flynn with the historic performance last night, but I still wonder who will be scoring big in those last six games if Cade remains out.

Has anybody Seen Jaden Ivey???

Anybody! The kid who finished up his rookie season is GONE!

The player that's left over is a shell of himself!
No impact, no clutch ability, zero ability to shoot, no confidence, no anything!!

Jaden Ivey has been a straight G League player this season.

And don't blame Monty Williams! Ivey starts and plays 30 minutes every game!

Jaden Ivey is one of the main reasons why the Pistons are terrible this season!

Nobody would have known Ivey would be a straight BUST!

And that's what he is a BUST! Officially!

[Phil-Good]

Has anybody Seen Jaden Ivey???

Anybody! The kid who finished up his rookie season is GONE!

The player that's left over is a shell of himself!
No impact, no clutch ability, zero ability to shoot, no confidence, no anything!!

Jaden Ivey has been a straight G League player this season.

And don't blame Monty Williams! Ivey starts and plays 30 minutes every game!

Jaden Ivey is one of the main reasons why the Pistons are terrible this season!

Nobody would have known Ivey would be a straight BUST!

And that's what he is a BUST! Officially!

[Sparma]

About to enter the Hall of Fame, greeted by his teammate Ben Wallace.  Not a spectacular PG, but an immensely valuable one, with his ability to use to his strength to penetrate, his generous and precise distributing, his tough defense, very good shooting and fantastic FT-shooting, and overall leadership.

What to say about the current Pistons who likely are headed toward their worst W-L record ever?  We've got a high pick coming with tons of money to spend this summer, yet there's so much realistic cause for pessimism, particularly under the guidance of the Piston brain trust, including Gores.  So many tough decisions where I'd love to have a young Dumars or a Jack McCloskey in charge.  For instance, I'm a big Jalen Duren fan, but I wonder if you pick Alexandre Sarr if it turns out you can.  Good exchange on Ivey: again, I'm a fan, but he's also provided serious reasons for doubt.  What to do? I think they need to be patient with him for a while (in agreement with Lemonpen), not least because I suspect his trade value has taken a serious dip recently and there's probably not a premium trade possibility available; I don't know what you do come draft time if the best player you can get at your [eg #5] slot, say Reed Sheppard, would impinge on Ivey's time and development. The team may face a similar dilemma as I discussed with Duren above. You'd love to draft a big-time wing, but will that be close to the best player available?

If only an able FO were in charge! So many important decisions ahead, requiring both vision and keen basketball acumen. I've come to doubt that that combination is available in-house.

[lemonpen]

Hello Pistons fans.

I believe the Pistons will be good again very soon.

Here is one of the Pistons main issues. And I have two trade ideas to attempt to fix it.

1: Jaden Ivey does not fit. Cade is your guy moving forward. If Cade is not your #1 option, he for sure is your #2 option.

Jaden Ivey is not a starting SG. Ivey simply put, can not shoot and must be replaced. Monty Williams was correct about Mr. Ivey all along. Ivey best way to help would be as the 6th man off the bench. PG spot.

Here is my trade idea. Miami. And Charlotte. Ivey and a protected first for Duncan Robinson and Herrio.
Ivey and a 2024 first for Brandon Miller.  

If Chicago wants to trade Levin I would still do that trade. But I wouldn't include Ivey or any first round picks. I would give up James Wiseman and guys like that.

My point, Ivey inability to shoot is killing the Pistons as the double team is coming directly off of Ivey's man.

Go back and watch the game film. Nobody respects Ivey's jump-shot. Isiah Stewart gets more respect from the defense then Ivey

I share your frustration with Ivey, but not your solution. I think the kid is too talented to throw-in the towel after only 2 yrs. The roster needs more bucketgetters, not fewer. IMO Ivey's all-around production is negatively impacted by his lack of patience on offense and poor self-discipline on D. I'd like to see how good and consistent he could become if his feet would stop outrunning his brain, his handle, his passing accuracy and his shooting.

[lemonpen]

All I want is for this season to end, so the Stones can just get the F out of the way.
Paying 20, 40, 60 dollars for parking is essentially throwing good money after BAD, so I give my tix away. Can only watch them on TV until the deficit reaches 20, then I'll go watch or do WHATEVER my wife is doing. I add salt to the wound by peeking online to see if we've closed the gap only to find it's blown up to 30. DAMN IT.!!

Hey Troy, will your tenure be characterized by massive losing and crawling across the finish line. Gotta say, our ability to repeat this theme is uncanny. "Run through the ribbon". Yeah right.

Our coach, Dwayne Williams or is it Monty Casey has only made me more miserable by whining because opposing teams haven't shown the requisite respect when we wave the white flag. The guy that was brought here to take charge of developing our roster looks more and more like he is receiving OJT. Who knew?

Once more, go get Grant and Billups, then we can talk about winning.

[Murph]

Hello Pistons fans.
Here is one of the Pistons main issues. And I have two trade ideas to attempt to fix it.

1: Jaden Ivey does not fit. Cade is your guy moving forward. If Cade is not your #1 option, he for sure is your #2 option.

Jaden Ivey is not a starting SG. Ivey simply put, can not shoot and must be replaced. Monty Williams was correct about Mr. Ivey all along. Ivey best way to help would be as the 6th man off the bench. PG spot.

Here is my trade idea. Miami. And Charlotte. Ivey and a protected first for Duncan Robinson and Herrio.
Ivey and a 2024 first for Brandon Miller.  

If Chicago wants to trade Levin I would still do that trade. But I wouldn't include Ivey or any first round picks. I would give up James Wiseman and guys like that.

My point, Ivey inability to shoot is killing the Pistons as the double team is coming directly off of Ivey's man.

Go back and watch the game film. Nobody respects Ivey's jump-shot. Isiah Stewart gets more respect from the defense then Ivey

I agree with the problem.  But I see the solution in a 180 degree opposite direction.  I don’t care what Tim Legler and Steven A have to say about Cade.  I don’t see Cade as a potential superstar that we can build a championship team around.  I see him as a flawed, but star player who is being misused.

And by the same token, I see Ivey as the potential superstar who’s career is being stunted and ruined in Detroit.  

Please follow my logic.  Weaver has tossed the keys to the team to Cade every year since he was drafted #1. And what are the results?  Every year, the Pistons have been the worst team in the NBA, culminating in this year, where they set a record for futility by losing 28 in a row and almost being the worst team in NBA history.  I think we need to stop blaming everything on the “supporting cast” and look at our “superstar”, as a source of our problems.  

Add to that Cade’s over-use and his inability to stay on the floor, due to health issues.  For years I have criticized Embiid for always being injured.  Embiid has missed roughly 40% of his games since he was drafted.  How is any team supposed to get out of the 2nd round, when their “superstar” misses on average 30 games a season?  The answer is they can’t.  No matter what talent the 6ers surround Embiid with, they ain’t going anywhere, because Embiid can’t stay on the floor.  Cade has a very similar problem.  He has also missed roughly 40% of his games since he was drafted, due to injury.  

And when Cade is healthy, he hasn’t played all that well.  Simply put, he doesn’t make great decisions, and he turns-over the ball too damn much.

Furthermore, last season when Cade was out and Ivey ran the point, the team played much better, which indicates to me that Ivey is a better PG than Cade. And that was in Ivey’s rookie season, when he was just learning the position.

Furthermore, Cade is a much better outside shooter than Ivey.  

So the obvious solution is to gives the ball to Ivey, and have Cade play off the ball at either SG or SF.  If I were coach, I’d try out Cade at SF.  Cade is big enough to play forward, shoots well enough, and it would lessen the workload on Cade, which might keep him healthy.  In other words, Cade should be complimenting Ivey, not the other way around.

Of course, none of this will ever happen.  For political reasons,  conventional wisdom is consolidating around the opinion of moron’s like Legler and Steven A, who for some reason still think Case is the Man.  Weaver picked Cade #1 and will never admit that Cade needs to be used differently.  

So instead of changing strategy, the Pistons will throw Ivey under the bus.  They’ll trade Ivey and our #1 for some over priced All-Star, like Blake Griffin.  After 5 years of misery, we will abandon the top-down rebuild and throw in the towel for a big name that some other team can’t wait to get rid of.  Cade will continue to make poor decisions, turn-over the ball, and miss games.  We’ll continue to be bad or at best mediocre.  Then we’ll watch Ivey turn into another Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, and scratch our heads and wonder, why we can’t ever develop a player like SGA?  

[Sparma]

We're closing in on a top 2 lottery slot, with #3 San Antonio and us at #2 both having played 68 games, and us 3 games worse than them.

We don't have enough talent (yet), even though we recently won 3 of 4. I like our top 4, but I think only Cade's a safe bet as a top 30 to top 40 player moving forward. I love how Ausar plays, but he's got a long way to go, and not just as shooter; Duren looks like a consistent double-double guy, but his defense continues to be wobbly; Ivey can look great, but he's super erratic and in a down stretch now.

If two of our core 4 don't become near All-Stars (and Cade's probably to that level already), we're in big trouble.

Our best shot for a major talent infusion's still the draft, even though it's getting talked down a lot.

I don't mind trading a pick, but only if it's for a major talent, not if it's for a pretty good player like DeAndre Hunter. Pulling off that kind of trade is super difficult.

Packaging Ivey and a pick could bring in major talent, as Phil suggests, but I really don't have the confidence Weaver could pull that off. In fact, I've seen enough to convince me he's not the got to complete the "restoration"; no matter what I think, however, I'm guessing he'll get the summer and at least part of next season to spend that wad of money and pick the super high pick.

Lavine, a possibility that Phil raises? Maybe, but not for Ivey, in agreement with him. Maybe Sasser and stuff gets it done. Not sure we could match salaries, at this point, after the trading Bogey and Burks.

It's a good time to be gloomy, but there's real hope, with the core 4, some solid talent beyond (especially Fontecchio), a great deal of money to spend, and great lottery odds. What could go wrong?

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