Blame me ...

[Grizz2]

found our new site, because he's hearing us pretty good!

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.. Grizz .. for Goodwill turning to the darkside .. a little .. I dissed him on that site's comments section after his PRAISE JMAX WITH GREAT PRAISE article ... he cried a little .. and then wrote a hit piece on Frank .. sort of .. .. and look what happened next? Frank played Drummond more in the Raptor game, without which, we would have lost ..

[Grizz2]

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[deusXango]

"...it’s time for a full-scale rebuilding effort around the team’s young core trio: Greg Monroe, Brandon Knight and Andre Drummond. The wins and losses don’t matter; this team, even if all the veterans magically regain their top form, is going nowhere. Frank can juggle all he wants, there’s simply not enough talent assembled. The Pistons can pin all of this on Frank if they really want to, they’ll realize soon enough that he’s far from the biggest problem.
The Pistons are at least two seasons away from being decent but the next 18 months represent a valuable development period for the faces of their future. Detroit either gets busy rebuilding — shedding veteran players and their contracts — or they welcome the same old dysfunctional cycle. This should be a very easy choice."

Thanks Grizz, for the timely read...the walls are closing in on Joe's fat ass!!

[Oracle]

The question now is how in the world can you justify NOT starting Drummond, and as Grizz's article stated, get our rebuild on!

From the article:
What was once a 13-point second-half lead turned into a five-point deficit, but despite the adversity, Knight, Tayshaun Prince and Andre Drummond each took turns making key plays to give the Pistons their third season win.

Greg Monroe got another double-double with 19 points and 11 rebounds, but Drummond's first double-double (13 points, 13 rebounds) and energy plays in the fourth were imperative. He took a charge, grabbed offensive rebounds and even stripped Andrea Bargnani, who torched the Pistons all night to the tune of 34 points and five rebounds.

Drummond had two straight great defensive plays and after a sluggish start, a revived Knight scored five straight to tie the game at 82 after Lowry had gotten the better of him for the second half.

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[Rett]

Drummond, Monroe,Knight....SHINED!!!!

And BTW, PRINCE was the Palace Prince tonight.......Playing like a true Vet!
He was awesome.....


Great Game!

GO PISTONS!

[Stones!]

...if Drummond knew how to shoot free throws! Welcome to Hack-a-Dre...coming to a Pistons game very soon. That may be the only reason why he is not seeing more minutes. Larry may be telling him to get his free throws better or come off the bench. Just a thought.

[Murph]

"...it’s time for a full-scale rebuilding effort around the team’s young core trio: Greg Monroe, Brandon Knight and Andre Drummond. The wins and losses don’t matter; this team, even if all the veterans magically regain their top form, is going nowhere. Frank can juggle all he wants, there’s simply not enough talent assembled. The Pistons can pin all of this on Frank if they really want to, they’ll realize soon enough that he’s far from the biggest problem.
The Pistons are at least two seasons away from being decent but the next 18 months represent a valuable development period for the faces of their future. Detroit either gets busy rebuilding — shedding veteran players and their contracts — or they welcome the same old dysfunctional cycle. This should be a very easy choice."

Thanks Grizz, for the timely read...the walls are closing in on Joe's fat ass!!

Actually, I disagree with much of this quote. I think Frank probably is their biggest probelm. Given the right coach, I think this team would play much better. In fact, I think this team is loaded with talent, albeit inexperienced talent.

And Dumars is busy rebuilding. He has a core of rookies and young players who are or will be outstanding, IMO...Monroe, Drummond, Knight (maybe) and Singler. And they have another collection of young players that might develop into servicable role players off the bench...Jerebko, English and Middleton. And then they have Stuckey who is young, and could play well, with the right coach, IMO.

[Oracle]

Murph, I'm with you on this one, we have some good talent, and some potential good talent, and here's how I know.

Teams that are better than their record show flashes of what they could be, but for varying reasone, they lack the consistency to produce those results on a regular basis.

This team is all over the map, due to a combination of youthful inexperience and poor coaching, but I have seen the flashes of excellence.

Cases that immediately come to mind.

1. The first game against OKC, while a loss, this team hung with them on the road.
2. The Philly win! While Philly had a horrible game, the Pistons didn't fail downward and make it close.
3. The Boston win was a good one because Boston was mostly at full strength, although we caught them on the back end of a back to back, and they're old.
4. While the Raptors are bad, they played like they haven't had food in a week, those cats were hungry and shooting very well.

All I'm saying is that the potential is there to challenge for the playoffs if they can get a lot more consistent, not in effort, but in execution/play.

[Phil-Good]

Wait on second... Sure Toronto is not great but the Pistons SUCK just as much as any team in the NBA right now.

And that was the best win this team has had in years! B.K.7 has to understand that this team belongs to him. That Toronto game was important towards Detroit's future.

This transition has to happen. I'm happy it's starting to take shape right here, right now.

Go PISTONS!

[Oracle]

Just in Time!!!

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[Sparma]

Thanks for posting the insightful Golliver column, Grizz. Prompted by Murph’s criticism of it, I’ve expressed my agreements (and disagreements) with Golliver's views bit by bit. His text, broken up into numbered parts, follows my commentary.

1) Yes, it’s time for dedicated rebuilding around Monroe, Knight and Drummond.
2) Yes, in that the Pistons will not make the playoffs and if they should slip in somehow that would be more of a curse than a blessing. No, in that I’d like the highest number of losses which is consistent with the development of the young talent (and not just the big three).
3) Yes, an ordinary coach like Frank isn’t going to get a good record out of this crew. No, in that a top coach like Phil Jackson could transform this bunch, getting egomaniacs like Stuckey and Bynum to buy into more of a team mentality as well as more energetic defense.
4) Yes, in that Frank leaving won’t make much difference in the long run if they bring in another humdrum coach, as is likely. No, because getting rid of Frank might the quickest way to have a positive impact on the team. But yes, in that the thinness (rather than lack) of NBA-plus talent is ultimately a bigger problem.
5) Probably, although they could be decent next year if they draft top five and swing a cap-driven trade for a high-powered wing scorer.
6) Agreed.
7) Yes, but here he doesn’t seem to acknowledge (contrary to his opening sentence) that the rebuilding process is well underway. It would be more accurate to say that the rebuilding can be sabotaged in various ways, especially by the coach.

Ben Golliver
(1) it’s time for a full-scale rebuilding effort around the team’s young core trio: Greg Monroe, Brandon Knight and Andre Drummond.
(2) The wins and losses don’t matter; this team, even if all the veterans magically regain their top form, is going nowhere.
(3) Frank can juggle all he wants, there’s simply not enough talent assembled. The Pistons can pin all of this on Frank if they really want to,
(4) they’ll realize soon enough that he’s far from the biggest problem.
(5) The Pistons are at least two seasons away from being decent
(6) but the next 18 months represent a valuable development period for the faces of their future.
(7) Detroit either gets busy rebuilding — shedding veteran players and their contracts — or they welcome the same old dysfunctional cycle. This should be a very easy choice.

[Oracle]

You said,

Yes, in that the Pistons will not make the playoffs and if they should slip in somehow that would be more of a curse than a blessing. No, in that I’d like the highest number of losses which is consistent with the development of the young talent (and not just the big three).

My problem with that is if these Pistons aren't challenging for that 8th spot, this season will have been a total waste.

The reason is crystal clear! For that to not happen will mean that this team has regressed, and that can't be classified as a good thing.

I'm actually alarmed that under Frank, even CV & Daye have regressed, they both used to be at a minimum VERY good offensive players.

What's even more alarming is the regression of Stuckey under Frank... that's really scary!

If that isn't enough to fill your pipe, Knight has regressed a bit, although he has been getting better, he still doesn't look like the player I saw at the end of last season.

Frank isn't building, he's destroying, and that has to be concerning to Joe & Gores, well, that is if they're watching the games, lol!

[merc]

The annual theme... I hate the coach... I hate the GM... they should always be a playoff contender... change 80% of the roster each year.

Perpetual changes guarantees inconsistency.

[Oracle]

Falls in love with a shiny new car, and buys it!

One week later there is a minor noise in the engine, and he takes it in for repairs.

He picks up his car, and notices that the noise is a bit louder, so he takes it back.

They fix it and he takes it home. The next day, his car is sputtering really bad. He takes it back and asks who the hell is the Mechanic, and they say Bob has been handling your job.

He says well, with Bob, everytime I bring my car in, it's getting worse! The GM says, well, if we keep changing mechanics, they'll have no history with your car, and it's hard to guarantee the results.

The man says, I don't give a shit, with Bob, it's guaranteed to get worse every time he works on it, and at some point, the car simply won't work anymore, so change mechanics, or give me my money back!

[Oracle]

"Unlike the other times he's impressed observers so far this season, it wasn't his sheer athleticism and youthful exuberance that stood out. His poise under pressure, along with the confidence to stay aggressive when he knew the Raptors were intent on fouling him every time he got close to the basket, will be something that bodes well down the road.

Also, when players are typically in "learning situations" — i.e., giving up another double-digit lead at home and facing the prospect of giving away another winnable game — the veterans usually carry the youngsters through, displaying the mental aptitude to continue to play within oneself in times of adversity.

Friday, though, it was Drummond's energy that lifted the team up. His smart plays, borne out of aggression but astute, nonetheless, enabled everyone else to follow his lead."

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[Sparma]

1) The big picture is that the Pistons need at least one more serious talent and they're most likely to get that through a top five pick this year, however thin this draft is said to be. This is their best, maybe last, chance to pick up the fourth cornerstone for this group. That's not inconsistent with the development of Monroe or Drummond, for me the two likeliest pillars moving into the future. Nor is it inconsistent with Knight attempting transform himself into the kind of player we need him to be in the long run, which is bound to be accompanied by growing pains (and losses). If you get there by shipping out Prince, Maxiell, Maggette, and maybe Stuckey for picks and expirings, all the better. For me, that's the ideal picture.

2) Closer to reality, I continue to doubt the Pistons will regress much as a team this year. I expect them to approach the winning % of last season. That would mean regression with respect to the lengthy .500 stretch, but not the season as a whole.

3) I don't want to be dismissive about the pain of regression. I may be one of the last to invest hope in the talk of CV's rigorous offseason workouts. I thought Daye could make it as a sharpshooting change of pace. We need a guy to make it to the basket consistently, drawing fouls, as Stuckey at his best does. And if Knight's regressed, that's a serious problem.

4) But a dubious thought in conclusion: regression's a bad thing, except when it isn't. At the team level, the benefits of regressing into a serious draft pick are clear. Much as I find CV likeable, a serviceable 25 minutes out of him isn't what a rebuilding team needs; I would welcome regression to the point of him being off the active roster and Kravtsov on. Stuckey's regression is sad, except that it allows the team to move on from construing him as a cornerstone to build around. Daye's lack of development is sad, but it forces us to move in a different direction, which may be necessary. Knight's regression may be a symptom of transition rather than of actually becoming a worse player. And if the team actually continues at this pace of regression, Frank probably won't make it into another season and we could bring in someone better suited to foster the young talent.

[Grizz2]

The annual theme... I hate the coach... I hate the GM... they should always be a playoff contender... change 80% of the roster each year.

Perpetual changes guarantees inconsistency.

Mercury .. GM has been around over a decade ... Can you blame anyone for not being happy with the 3 stooges? ... Curry and Kuester will never coach anywhere again for good reason .. Hell of a chance the same for Frank .. Look what happened when someone finally listened to us and Frank played Drummond some significant minutes ... We won a frickin game we would have lost .. And Drummond the alpha star to be .. is showing he can deliver some major leadership for us while delivering some mayhem against the other teams ... and should be on the court this season close to 30 minutes a game .. if not in fact start (which strongly recommend Frank do ..)

We are not asking for crazy stuff .. we are asking for those in power to stop doing crazy stuff .. You know .. like playing Daye at SG .. or Jmax at center ... giving Afflalo away for zip ... signing defensive jokes like Ben G or CV for mucho pecos ....or our MVP Billups for one of the most selfish players in the history of the NBA ... or letting our new young guns atrophy on the bench for a bunch of veterans whose time has come and gone and couldnt win 20 games on their own anyway ....Not a shred of doubt in my mind that both the Detroit Piston writers and the GM and the Coach would do well to listen to our forum .. not that we are right about everything .. but on the whole .. if you listen to both sides of the arguments we get into .. they would all better understand the past history and current state of the Pistons .. Merc.. and you have been here all along giving us some very valuable perspective and insights too!

Joe Dumars by drafting a lot of great players of the past few years ... is showing he belongs at GM ... Knight .. Monroe . Drummond ... the new generation of Pistons that can get a ship for Detroit ..

[WTF]

The annual theme... I hate the coach... I hate the GM... they should always be a playoff contender... change 80% of the roster each year.

Perpetual changes guarantees inconsistency.

The annual theme of the forum goes hand and hand with the decisions of the GM who in the last 5 seasons (plus) has made of all the poor coaching decisions, who has remained inactive on any real significant player movement until the recent Ben Gordon traded (In a salery dump) that resulted in giving of potential lottery pick. The problem is not with inconsistency from changing but consistency in which change is being made.

From 2008 the last time we contended for anything roster the remaining players from 2008 are Prince, Maxiell, and Stuckey. This team has regressed from that point on under Curry, Kuester and now Frank while Joe was making all the changes and hiring of coaches.

This forum and fans everywhere have had great cause/reason to annually request change. Just too bad that Joe doesn't listen to them in order to make the right change.

[cool breeze]

A few games ago coach Frank admitted that Singler has no plays called for him within this stagnant Piston offense. Yet when Stuckey replaces Singler, Stuckey suddenly has plays and actually gets the basketball. Isn't it about time that Singler has a chance to touch the basketball? It seems that everytime he does take a shot it either goes in or the shot goes in and then out of the basket. Singler and Prince can create their own shots. That is a problem for Stuckey. Stuckey has a real problem with his outside shooting and creating shots from the outside. He doesn't try many because he has very little confidence. Singler is the opposite but for some reason when Kyle is standing with no defender anywhere near him, the other players on the floor seem blind. This is much like the way Billups and Hamilton froze out Prince in his first two seasons. But the coach at the time created some plays for Prince. Singler is the 2 guard. Why in hell is he being froze out coach Frank????Sparma made a good point that at least the Piston organization can move on regarding their expectations of Stuckey. I imagine Stuckey will look good some nights but he has proven by now that he is not a consistant everyday player the team can count on. When he is not contributing in the offensive end, he plays horrible defense. And Maggette is not playing well on either end as well. This combination of Bynum, Stuckey, and Maggette has not worked but I doubt the coach will give up on it. Maybe bring in Daye for outside shooting with this group. He plays defense a little bit worse than Stuckey and Maggette but the guy can get hot from the outside which is what is missing. Whoever plays with the combination of Stuckey, Bynum and Maggette might as well stay on the defensive end and not even play any offense. The BIG THREE of Frank shoot the ball at times where the big men cannot get position for offensive rebounding. That is what is amazing about Drummond. He is so athletic that he is able to still be effective playing with horrible skill players who do not know how to share the basketball. Good win Pistons! Knight finally has had some key moments during crunch time. Build on that and play English or Daye with the second group leaving one of The BIG Three on the bench please.

[Murph]

The annual theme... I hate the coach... I hate the GM... they should always be a playoff contender... change 80% of the roster each year.

Perpetual changes guarantees inconsistency.

Merc...yes, we could keep Lil Larry, and yes, the team would improve and eventually even make the playoffs, in spite of him. But honestly, wouldn't you rather have Nate McMillan as coach of the Pistons for the next five years, instead of Lil Larry? All you need to do is look at Brandon Knight's non-development at PG, and the Pistons lack of chemistry in general to know Lil Larry isn't a great coach. We could do better.

[deusXango]

Maybe bring in Daye for outside shooting with this group. He plays defense a little bit worse than Stuckey and Maggette but the guy can get hot from the outside which is what is missing.

Don, those were some very astute observations regarding the folly of not having plays called/designed for Singler, and the common sense to stop depending on Stuckey to be some great savior. I agree with 95% of your post but, you lost me with the mention of Daye being a part of our rotation, based solely on his outside shooting; that ship has sailed. I offer for your consideration, Khris Middleton. Middleton has displayed a high percentage outside shoot (with the sparse opportunities given him), and a much better defender than all the current candidates.

We have 3 weapons on the shelf in English, Middleton, and Kravtsov, and if they can't get in the game, let Daye and CV continue to get their money from sitting on the bench; they're not weapons but, obstecles that are presently being overcome. To reach back for either of them would be major regression! Don't we have enough wasted time being taken by Maxiell, Maggette, and Bynum, from the developmentof our youth? None of those players should be on this team beyond this year, but we're mounting a playoff drive utilizing 'em? Yeah, we need some changes to this team.

[deusXango]

The annual theme... I hate the coach... I hate the GM... they should always be a playoff contender... change 80% of the roster each year.

Perpetual changes guarantees inconsistency.

Merc...yes, we could keep Lil Larry, and yes, the team would improve and eventually even make the playoffs, in spite of him. But honestly, wouldn't you rather have Nate McMillan as coach of the Pistons for the next five years, instead of Lil Larry? All you need to do is look at Brandon Knight's non-development at PG, and the Pistons lack of chemistry in general to know Lil Larry isn't a great coach. We could do better.

To mediate between two like minds; Merc is correct, we need some consistency, in the worst way, in order for the team to move forward. Murph is correct in stating that we need an upgrade in the head coaching chair; Nate McMillan for five years would give us the consistency for team chemistry to develop, and our youth as well.

I know many look at Knight as being the leader of this new breed of Pistons but, for my money, I look to Drummond to be the one to lead this team to victory, in time. During his interview after Fridays win, he sheepishly answered "my guys have helped me improve along the way, everyday." You could see in that brief moment, with the voice of maturity, he will boldly be proclaiming after victories, "my guys did it tonight!"

[Oracle]

Ok, we dog him a lot, so how about some props for that really good and timely article from Goodwill!

[Oracle]

DX, I do agree with Merc, changes have truly decimated this organization, and caused a lot of this inconsistency!

It started with Joe winning a 'ship on limited money. Mr. D saw that as an inexpensive way to having it all, so he under funded Joe the next year, and we had trouble keeping a great bench. That more than anything cost us winning more championships because we had to run our starters into the ground in a system that called for a lot of movement on offense, and burining tons of energy on defense.

After LB, Mr. D continued to play on the cheap until he left us! That's when the changes started. Joe was rudderless, and confined to a limited and shrinking budget.

More importantly, there was complete instability above Joe, and while it's comfortable to blame Joe, I don't think people fully appreciate how hard it is to navigate a whole host of issues without that stability.

Joe added to the instability in two ways. He made the lineup unstable by trading leadership(Chauncey), a true coach on the floor. To add to the instability, he had a succession of coaches that totally destroyed Piston basketball as we've know it. However, I attribute some of that to the problems already described, but Joe is also responsible for some questionable decisions.

Enter Gores, and stability of a sort returns, and all of a sudden Joe is performing better, but we don't have Joe's coach for this team.

While I understand where Merc is coming from, the problem is not IF you want to maintain consistency, you do. The question is WHEN do you freeze the coach and guarantee stability in that position?

We're proposing that you don't want to do it with Frank, for a lot of very solid reasons.

[Oracle]

Sheed is winning, LOL!

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