Jaden Ivey

[Phil-Good]

Hello Pistons fans.

I believe the Pistons will be good again very soon.

Here is one of the Pistons main issues. And I have two trade ideas to attempt to fix it.

1: Jaden Ivey does not fit. Cade is your guy moving forward. If Cade is not your #1 option, he for sure is your #2 option.

Jaden Ivey is not a starting SG. Ivey simply put, can not shoot and must be replaced. Monty Williams was correct about Mr. Ivey all along. Ivey best way to help would be as the 6th man off the bench. PG spot.

Here is my trade idea. Miami. And Charlotte. Ivey and a protected first for Duncan Robinson and Herrio.
Ivey and a 2024 first for Brandon Miller.

If Chicago wants to trade Levin I would still do that trade. But I wouldn't include Ivey or any first round picks. I would give up James Wiseman and guys like that.

My point, Ivey inability to shoot is killing the Pistons as the double team is coming directly off of Ivey's man.

Go back and watch the game film. Nobody respects Ivey's jump-shot. Isiah Stewart gets more respect from the defense then Ivey

[lemonpen]

Was it too much trouble for Money Williams to call time out and draw up a play at the end of the game yesterday?  WTF?

You can't blame anyone but Williams for that thing not making it to OT. Who the heck leaves time on the clock for the other team.

Troy, again, please go get Chauncey. We need a floor general.

[Murph]

Was it too much trouble for Money Williams to call time out and draw up a play at the end of the game yesterday? WTF?

[lemonpen]

Dainel Gafford - Mavs ($12.4M), shot blocker supreme & rebounder, 25 yr old.
Al Horford - Celtics ($10M), swiss army knife, 37 yr old.

Two quality players at opposite ends of the age spectrum

[lemonpen]

I'd like to know if anyone on this board can tell us what the options for Wiseman are next year. With a qualifying offer of 15.8M next year, does that mean the Pistons have to either offer it and he accepts, or they don't offer and he is a free agent? Can we offer him a lesser contract in free agency?

For the record, Wiseman is not worth that much, if a starter (?) Stew is making 15M. My concern is that they cut our former French friend, but hung on to Wiseman. Not only is he making some improvements, but they invested in a player-coach, Taj Gibson. It is also obvious they got rid of Bagley so they could see what they have in Wiseman. They would not be making these investments if they didn't plan on keeping him.

Let's face it. Wiseman is a great 3rd option, but still young. How much are 3rd option centers making? My guess is 5M/year.

If anyone has any info that they can share, please do. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.

Here you go.
Free Agency Explained

My feelings about Wiseman echo yours more or less.   But, in situations like this I always wonder how much of a players RECENT & SUDDEN improvement is rooted in him sensing a potential end to his NBA career.  Contract years produce predictable upticks that too often fail to sustain beyond the drying of fresh ink on a new deal.

JW is in a unique situation as the only true center behind Duren, and he is giving the appearance of being needed and worthwhile.

[Murph]

Stones…I think you have identified all the issues around Wiseman and his contract.  I think if we decline to make the $15 million qualifying offer, Wiseman becomes an unrestricted free agent.  I still think there’s a good chance we could sign him to a much more reasonable contract in free agency, of say 3 years at $24 million.  

But do we really want to take that chance?  Wiseman is beginning to grow on me.  At first, I hated the trade.  I still don’t like it.  I’d still rather have Bey than Wiseman.  But that’s water under the bridge.

In Detroit, Wiseman has worked hard and continues to gradually improve to the point where he has become one of the more efficient players on the team.  I mean, he is shooting an eye opening 67% for the year, and he’s enjoying career highs or close to career highs in rebounding %, assist %, block %, and steal %.

At this point, I would rather over-pay Wiseman for one year than risk losing him.  If I were Weaver, I’d extend the qualifying offer to Wiseman, make him our 2nd string center, and see if he can continues to improve and get stronger.  He definitely needs to spend the off season in the weight room.  

Besides, I don’t trust Weaver to spend his cap money elsewhere anyway. There are not a lot an outstanding free agents eager to come to Detroit. Weaver is liable to do something colossally stupid like paying Tobias Harris $120 million for 3 years. Given the choice, I would take Wiseman for 1 year at $15 million every single time.

I'd like to know if anyone on this board can tell us what the options for Wiseman are next year. With a qualifying offer of 15.8M next year, does that mean the Pistons have to either offer it and he accepts, or they don't offer and he is a free agent? Can we offer him a lesser contract in free agency?

For the record, Wiseman is not worth that much, if a starter (?) Stew is making 15M. My concern is that they cut our former French friend, but hung on to Wiseman. Not only is he making some improvements, but they invested in a player-coach, Taj Gibson. It is also obvious they got rid of Bagley so they could see what they have in Wiseman. They would not be making these investments if they didn't plan on keeping him.

Let's face it. Wiseman is a great 3rd option, but still young. How much are 3rd option centers making? My guess is 5M/year.

If anyone has any info that they can share, please do. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.

[Go Stones!]

I'd like to know if anyone on this board can tell us what the options for Wiseman are next year. With a qualifying offer of 15.8M next year, does that mean the Pistons have to either offer it and he accepts, or they don't offer and he is a free agent? Can we offer him a lesser contract in free agency?

For the record, Wiseman is not worth that much, if a starter (?) Stew is making 15M. My concern is that they cut our former French friend, but hung on to Wiseman. Not only is he making some improvements, but they invested in a player-coach, Taj Gibson. It is also obvious they got rid of Bagley so they could see what they have in Wiseman. They would not be making these investments if they didn't plan on keeping him.

Let's face it. Wiseman is a great 3rd option, but still young. How much are 3rd option centers making? My guess is 5M/year.

If anyone has any info that they can share, please do. I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.

[lemonpen]

Lemon…I understand what you’re saying about Grimes.  His shooting has been horrendous.  He is not helping the team.  

Based on his previous two years in the league, I think Grimes, if healthy, can be a valuable player.  But he has to be healthy.

Umude has played very well.  Shut down Grimes and give Umude some regular minutes. If at the end of the season umude moves ahead of Grimes on the depth chart, then so be it.  But we have up a lot for Grimes in Burks and Bojan.  Shouldn’t we at least see what we have?  Besides, he’s signed through next season to a very favorable contract anyway.

Under normal circumstances I would agree 100%.  But....... Win-Now.

Injury to the 4 vets brought here for their +40% 3pt shooting was IMO the main contributor to our historic losing streak.  As you indicate we've given up major assets for Grimes, and it's deja vu all over again.  He arrives dinged up, once in shoots horribly, then a knee problem.  I can't conjure a single reason for Gores not firing Weaver immediately.   Should Troy survive the summer I can't imagine his rope being long enough to tie a knot. They must win right out of the gate.

[Murph]

Lemon…I understand what you’re saying about Grimes.  His shooting has been horrendous.  He is not helping the team.  

Based on his previous two years in the league, I think Grimes, if healthy, can be a valuable player.  But he has to be healthy.

Umude has played very well. Shut down Grimes and give Umude some regular minutes. If at the end of the season umude moves ahead of Grimes on the depth chart, then so be it.  But we have up a lot for Grimes in Burks and Bojan.  Shouldn’t we at least see what we have?  Besides, he’s signed through next season to a very favorable contract anyway.

[lemonpen]

It sure did look like the Raptors game plan involved attacking Jaden Ivey. Often it was his D assignment going hard, back cutting, you name it. When applying a full court press in the closing minutes almost every Ivey touch resulted in a favorable outcome for Toronto. It will be interesting to see if future opponents give it a go.

[lemonpen]

The Pistons have now won 3 out of 4.  

Duren has taken another huge step forward.

The Pistons need to shut down Grimes, and get his knee examined.  If it requires surgery, then get it over with and begin the rehab.  Because as it is, he’s not helping the team at all.

Good post, Murph.

I'm one who has reservations about the cohesion of the core 4, even just of Cade and Ivey, but yesterday it did jell.  They provided plenty of cause for hope last night.

And we left that worst ever 76er team in the dust!

Looking at the box score last night, it finally looks as if the Pistons are playing as a team, and playing the right way.  

All the starters played starters minutes and did what they were supposed to do.  Ausar filled up the stat sheet with 14 points, 7 rbds, 3 asts, a steal and a block in a team high 43 minutes.  Stew had 10 rebounds.  Duren had his usual double-double.

And our stars led the way.  Cade had 32 pts  and 11 assists.  And Ivey had a game high 34 points on 6-9 from 3 point land.

All our starters were plus on the night.  We shot 52/40/95 as a team.  And we out-bounded the Nets 50-28. We still turned-over the ball too much, but nothing’s perfect.

This is the game we’ve been waiting for for the last 5 years.  Hopefully, the Pistons can build on this game and maintain this kind of team chemistry.  


Grimes needs to have surgery and get his knee fixed before next season.

Uggggggg

Can you say K. Hayes phase two.
1) Dude has demonstrated a far greater willingness to shoot than actual shooting skill. His OPEN shots aren't close; they strike the outside of the rim. He has on several occasions already, shot us out of a quarter.
2) Dude has demonstrated the same KH tendency of pounding the rock to absolutely no end result.
3) I will say that his D is a bit more real than you know who. Maybe.

Knee or no knee, neither he nor we can afford sitting out. This roster is going to roll over and post operative opportunities will be limited. Win-Now doesn't typically afford much positional competition.
Umude is chomping at the bit for a 17 game opening. (his shots find twine)

[Murph]

The Pistons have now won 3 out of 4.  

Duren has taken another huge step forward.

The Pistons need to shut down Grimes, and get his knee examined.  If it requires surgery, then get it over with and begin the rehab.  Because as it is, he’s not helping the team at all.

Good post, Murph.

I'm one who has reservations about the cohesion of the core 4, even just of Cade and Ivey, but yesterday it did jell.  They provided plenty of cause for hope last night.

And we left that worst ever 76er team in the dust!

Looking at the box score last night, it finally looks as if the Pistons are playing as a team, and playing the right way.  

All the starters played starters minutes and did what they were supposed to do.  Ausar filled up the stat sheet with 14 points, 7 rbds, 3 asts, a steal and a block in a team high 43 minutes.  Stew had 10 rebounds.  Duren had his usual double-double.

And our stars led the way.  Cade had 32 pts  and 11 assists.  And Ivey had a game high 34 points on 6-9 from 3 point land.

All our starters were plus on the night.  We shot 52/40/95 as a team.  And we out-bounded the Nets 50-28. We still turned-over the ball too much, but nothing’s perfect.

This is the game we’ve been waiting for for the last 5 years.  Hopefully, the Pistons can build on this game and maintain this kind of team chemistry.  


Grimes needs to have surgery and get his knee fixed before next season.

[Sparma]

Good post, Murph.

I'm one who has reservations about the cohesion of the core 4, even just of Cade and Ivey, but yesterday it did jell. They provided plenty of cause for hope last night.

And we left that worst ever 76er team in the dust!

Looking at the box score last night, it finally looks as if the Pistons are playing as a team, and playing the right way.  

All the starters played starters minutes and did what they were supposed to do.  Ausar filled up the stat sheet with 14 points, 7 rbds, 3 asts, a steal and a block in a team high 43 minutes.  Stew had 10 rebounds.  Duren had his usual double-double.

And our stars led the way.  Cade had 32 pts  and 11 assists.  And Ivey had a game high 34 points on 6-9 from 3 point land.

All our starters were plus on the night.  We shot 52/40/95 as a team.  And we out-bounded the Nets 50-28. We still turned-over the ball too much, but nothing’s perfect.

This is the game we’ve been waiting for for the last 5 years.  Hopefully, the Pistons can build on this game and maintain this kind of team chemistry.  


Grimes needs to have surgery and get his knee fixed before next season.

[Murph]

Looking at the box score last night, it finally looks as if the Pistons are playing as a team, and playing the right way.

All the starters played starters minutes and did what they were supposed to do. Ausar filled up the stat sheet with 14 points, 7 rbds, 3 asts, a steal and a block in a team high 43 minutes. Stew had 10 rebounds. Duren had his usual double-double.

And our stars led the way. Cade had 32 pts and 11 assists. And Ivey had a game high 34 points on 6-9 from 3 point land.

All our starters were plus on the night. We shot 52/40/95 as a team. And we out-bounded the Nets 50-28. We still turned-over the ball too much, but nothing’s perfect.

This is the game we’ve been waiting for for the last 5 years. Hopefully, the Pistons can build on this game and maintain this kind of team chemistry.


Grimes needs to have surgery and get his knee fixed before next season.

[Sparma]

Taj Gibson's had a really nice NBA career, playing PF as well as C. He's now 38 years old, and his (small sample) season PER of 3.1 (!) is roughly one fifth his career average of 15.2.

32 y.o. PF/ C Mike Muscala looked like a valuable rotational contributor to me in his brief time in Detroit, getting in defensive position and being enough of a threat as a shooter at 37.6% for his career (unlike Duren, who I hope is on his way to becoming a star) to create some space for Ausar. His PER's none to impressive for the year at 8, still nearly three times that of Gibson.

We bought out Muscala and have now signed Gibson to a 10-day deal.

Meanwhile, Muscala's caught on with OKC, one of the best run franchises in the NBA.

No big deal by itself, but I think there's a cumulative effect to not getting the little stuff right, time and time again. Discouraging.

[Go Stones!]

1) Draft a PF

2) Pay Drummond what would be given to Wiseman

3) Pay Miles Bridges what he is worth and bring him home

4) Pick up Covington for a quality veteran off the bench

5) Resign Kek, Troy Brown, Jr and Flynn

6) DON'T resign Wiseman or Fournier




15-man roster:

Cade, Ivey, Ausar, Bridges, Duren

Sasser, Grimes, Kek, Stew, Drummond

Flynn, Troy Brown Jr, Umude, Covington, (1st round pick)

(Milton just got bought out)

[Sparma]

I've experienced hope recently, especially with Fontecchio and Grimes looking like they'll be good fit for some time, if re-signed.

Cade's looked pretty great recently.

After the refs robbed us in NYC, it was nice to get the win in Chicago, even if it took them shooting 2-29 from deep.

We got our core four, Stewart as a solid rotation player, Sasser showing flashes in his rookie season, along with the two promising newbies.

So why should I be so bothered by the Mike Muscala departure? Even with modest numbers, he made a real difference, in part by facilitating more comfortable moments for Ausar and also with reliably sound defensive positioning. It seems like a Weaver move to protect Wiseman's (future) spot (unless something big happens, like drafting Sarr).

As Murph points out, Weaver missed out hugely by picking Hayes over Haliburton (a move I endorsed at the time, even though I did also like Haiiburton). Beyond the massive issues, there have also been so many tiny cuts that have added up. I wouldn't mind a re-signing of Wiseman for the minimum, but letting Muscala go strikes me as losing a valuable puzzle piece.

After a heartening trade deadline, it's a drag to behold what looks like another ill-conceived move, even if only a minor one.

[Murph]

Haliburton on the Pistons selecting Killian Hayes:

“What is this, they're not picking me?" Haliburton said, mimicking his agent's motion. "And then it flashed up, Killian Hayes, and I was like, 'What!?' In that moment I was frustrated, but I knew the Kings were my floor. "But, still in the moment, I was just angry.”



Was the Hayes pick a bigger miss that the Darko pick?   Is missing on Haliburton actually worse than missing on Camelo?

Please bare with me.  It’s entirely possible that if he stays healthy, Halliburton will have a more successful career than Carmelo.  At least through the first 4 years in the league, Halliburton is outperforming Carmelo.

And by the same token, it’s entirely possible that Darko’s career will be more successful than Hayes’.  I mean Darko at least played 10 years in the league.  It’s highly doubtful Hayes will play that long.  Sad but true.


I can’t believe Hayes demanded a trade.  Was he out of his effen mind???   Who did he think was going to trade for him?   Now he’s out of the league.  What a moron.

[Murph]

Shake Milton is exactly the kind of tall, athletic, defensive minded shooting guard that we need to fill out the roster. He’s 6’5, 205, and when given regular minutes, he plays well. He’s an average 3 point shooter who is bound to improve, if played regularly. He’s only now coming into his prime, and he could be an inexpensive, solid reserve, or a spot starter in case of injury.

This guy should be brought back on an affordable contract.

[lemonpen]

It seems Chauncy is a finalist for the next HOF class.

hof

[lemonpen]

I think Williams almost has the starting lineup correct.  Williams is starting the “core four”, which I agree with, along with Fontechhio.  Of course Grimes is out with a nagging injury right now.

When Grimes gets healthy and returns after the All-Star break, I would sub him into the starting lineup for Fontecchio in a 3 guard lineup.  I think Williams should start his 5 best players, regardless of position, and I think that over time, it will become clear that Grimes is younger, already better, and has far more potential on both sides of the ball than Fontecchio.  

I would also play Sasser, Milton, Brown, Fontecchio, Stewart and even Wiseman extensively off the bench.  Williams particularly needs to give Milton, Brown Fontecchio and Wiseman long hard looks in the second half of the season, in order to determine whether or not they should be brought back and/or extended.

At this point it matters less exactly which positions Cade, Ivey and Grimes play.  Over time, it will become clear who runs the point best, who is the best spot up shooter, who is best in isolation, etc. Just start your 5 best players, when everyone is healthy.

Play the wheels off of them. Give Weaver every bit of information required to make sound decisions.

[lemonpen]

Ok, so ~56M is allotted for 7 players (Cade, Duren, Thompson, Sasser, Ivey, Grimes. and Stew)

If they resign (I wouldn't pay more than this):
Wiseman 8M - still a project. Would have traded or waived him if there was no resigning
Fournier 6M - my bet is that Troy and Williams like him b/c he is tall and a mismatch
Fontecchio 8M - ????

and they keep:
Milton 5M - can be waived; good price for a vet.
TBJ 4M - can be waived; probably odd man out

That equals 12 players.

If they draft 2 players = 14

If they sign 2 free agents = 16

What do they do with their 3 G-league players? What about Tosan?

Strangely enough Wiseman seems to be in a fairly favorable situation, provided he is willing to work for less $$$.  He's currently the only center-size backup that can play in the paint.  The tall joker we picked up from Washington shrinks with proximity to the hoop.  He releases a 3pt hoist from a higher elevation than a layup.  
It remains to be seen if Mr. MMA (Stewie) is ready for prime time.

FYI:  4-knee-yea is under contract for next year with a club option @ $19M.  If we keep him we must pay him. Set him free, please.

[lemonpen]

Despite Ivey's improvement he remains quite an undermotivated 1 on 1 defender.  He possesses the quickness and strength to be significantly better, and we've seen him have moments of excellence.   Infrequent moments though   .  Ben Mathurin may have done us a tremendous favor by making their AS game matchup personal.  Can't wait to see how JI responds now that pride is on the line.

[lemonpen]

Both of these guys have been around awhile.  Each has played on winning teams, alongside a league MVP.   Yet, neither has distinguished themselves in any form nor stuck.  Neither has even garnered enough interest to yield an average mid-level contract.  I think a favorable comparison for both is Bruce Brown, a guy who in similar circumstances has made himself all that Shake & Troy have not; a proven asset.  

Currently their greatest value to us is keeping our CAP space warm.

[Go Stones!]

Ok, so ~56M is allotted for 7 players (Cade, Duren, Thompson, Sasser, Ivey, Grimes. and Stew)

If they resign (I wouldn't pay more than this):
Wiseman 8M - still a project. Would have traded or waived him if there was no resigning
Fournier 6M - my bet is that Troy and Williams like him b/c he is tall and a mismatch
Fontecchio 8M - ????

and they keep:
Milton 5M - can be waived; good price for a vet.
TBJ 4M - can be waived; probably odd man out

That equals 12 players.

If they draft 2 players = 14

If they sign 2 free agents = 16

What do they do with their 3 G-league players? What about Tosan?

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