Casey Has Lost The Freaking Team!

[Murph]

Ok I think we all might agree on this: we thought the team would be bad, BUT NOT THIS FREAKING BAD.

Casey has got to go! I get that he’s a nice, dignified old man. My grandfather was a nice dignified old man also. But I wouldn’t have wanted him coaching the Pistons either.

Fire Casey!!! And hire Frank Vogel or Kenny Atkinson.

[Oracle]

The goal is to get the F%#k out of the way!


Unfortunately, in basketball, that's a freaking disaster!!!

[Murph]

At what point do we start bitching about Weaver’s draft record?   I mean, he’s pretty good at signing undervalued free agents (Grant, Olynyk, Lyles) and then trading them for draft picks and assets.  But is he actually good at maximizing those draft picks?

Well, Hayes has been a huge disappointment, and is actuality digressing toward bust territory.  Halliburton was a huge miss.  

IMO, Bey and Stewart have worked out very well, and represent good value as mid to late 1st round picks.

Cade Cunningham was a no brainer; he was the consensus #1 pick, so everyone would have made that pick.  Ditto for Jaden Ivey.  It was a miracle he was still available at #5, and everyone would have taken him.

Duren was a brilliant pick at #13.  He just turned 19, and is still growing.  He’s already a beast on the boards, and with experience, he’ll develop into an outstanding, defensive minded,  starting center.

Weaver has been good with his 2nd round picks.  Lee and Garza represented excellent value as 2nd rounders, but then they were cast off for nothing, so they don’t count.

Isaiah Livers has been great.  He was a 2nd round pick (#42 overall) and he’s still on the team and contributing.

We drafted a Euro or two and stashed them abroad.  I can’t remember their names, but those guys seldom work out.

So all and all, the jury’s still out on Weaver’s draft record.  


And his choice of head coaches is very, very suspect.


Weaver needs to drastically up his game in the next year or two.  He needs to deploy all his free agent money to maximum effect, and he needs to hire a great coach that will move the Pistons into contention over the next decade.

[cool breeze]

This season is going south fast.  As others have pointed out, our schedule is brutal.  We are going to be something like 5-15 after our first 20 games.

Our defense is horrible.  We need Bagley back in the starting lineup badly, really badly.  

Bojan is a great shooter, but he’s a ‘tweeter...he’s too slow to play the wing, and too small and weak to play PF.  He needs to come off the bench, where he isn’t as great a defensive liability.  He could be a 6th man candidate coming off the bench, until he can be traded.  

The Pistons should start a young core, and then they should put together a veteran 2nd unit that can come in and restore order, and provide stability.

Starters:
Cade
Ivey
Bey
Stewart
Bagley

2nd unit:
Hayes
Joseph
Diallo
Bojan
Noel

Duren is only 18 years old.  He needs to go to the G-League and play every day, until Noel is traded or gets hurt again.  

Hayes’ lack of development is becoming alarming.  He’s a 3rd year player.  He just isn’t getting it at all.  I can’t believe we have this kid under contract for 2 more seasons.  What should we do with him when Burks comes back?  I’d be tempted to play CoJo at PG and Burks at SG on the 2nd unit, when Burks comes back.  It might be time to give up on Hayes completely.

Oh...and FIRE CASEY, and hire Frank Vogel.

I like your title Murph " Restoring order". That is what is lacking for sure. I might suggest starting Noel if of when his feet stop hurting. That is a very painful injury as I know because I have been a long time marathon runner. Noel is no pushover and says he wants to be recognized as a hard ass defender and rebounder this season. I would start Bagley at power forward if he can score from the baseline 3 and Noel at center ( could care less about his scoring we need a real shot blocker ). Then I would go with Bojan with Bey being the primary scorer off the bench. Cade and Ivey continue to start. I would remove Killian from the rotation for awhile because he has somehow really screwed up the team chemistry. Keep Ivey in the game longer if he stays out of foul trouble playing with Cory in the backcourt. Ivey might get more easy baskets driving the ball into the paint. Something needs to change.

[cool breeze]

I had this sick feeling after watching how dominating the Pacers were in the paint. I said to myself there is no way our Pistons will win that game. Our team might be the worst team in the league when thinking about defense because we have extremely weak defensive players at the center and power forward position. Stewart is not a playoff caliber starting center. He might not be a good option for a playoff team playing with the 2nd unit either other than in special situations. There is a reason why Stewart had 4 fouls early in the game. The other big men were bigger, stronger, more focused and quicker than he was. That was easy to see watching television. The set up dunk play by Cade that didn't count because time had expired on the shot clock also was telling. We have a really small center who is not a quick jumper or a guy who can release the ball quickly even on a dunk attempt. It is not his fault. Mr. Stewart needs to get a running start and then he can sky but from a jump stop he is extremely slow and cannot jump high enough to dominate 6 foot ten inch to 7 foot centers with a dunk. He tries really hard but to think if Stewart becomes even a 40 percent 3 point shooter everything will be alright is pretty silly. That travel by Beef Stew towards the end of the game out beyond the 3 point line where his first thought was to launch a really long 3 point attempt didn't bother me as much as the ass whipping he received from every big man on the Pacers who got any playing time in the paint. Of course the Piston coaching staff doesn't make things easy for Stewart. Our starting power forward Bojon should be playing small forward. We need his outside scoring and high basketball IQ. Bey is a valuable player but he is not really quick or very tall. But he can be a great scorer coming off the bench. Maybe Bagley can improve the Piston defense but he has not developed a reputation as a really good defensive rebounder or shot blocker. Center and power forward are the 2 positions that are causing real problems relating to the Piston defense. My best guess is that Noel can solve this major problem or at least improve overall paint defense.

Has Casey's previous coaching staffs ever been able to field a powerful defensive unit? He hs ever been able to improve any individual player or give them suggestions on how they can improve over the summer months? Maybe he has done that but far since being with the Pistons I can't see where he has ever really tried to concentrate at all in the defensive development of his players. He is interested in creating a good 3 point shooting team so instead of Beef Stew working on his defensive techniques all smaller NBA centers face, the coach has him concentrating on his 3 point shot. Why not figure out how he can score around the basket better or do a better job on pick and roll plays if anything at all? There is no way the Pacers should have been able to score that easily against any NBA team. Lemonpen brought up a good point relating to the amount of switching the Pistons are doing. Why would a coach go into training camp practicing switching instead of getting players to learn how to become tough on ball defenders concentrating on the stomach. The stomach doesn't lie my coach used to say.

The article on the right "Is Cade Cunningham really being too passive" is actually really stupid. Cade seems to be the only player trying to play the right way on defense. He knows the Pistons cannot win playing the switching game. He scored 12 straight points in the 4th quarter as his teammates continued to shoot themselves in the foot every time they touched the ball. No the Pistons are getting their asses kicked because anyone can score on them in the paint and get 2 or 3 chances if they miss. Meanwhile, too many Piston players are jacking up low percentage contested shots because the team has no half court offensive system other than read and react. Specific players have certain talents but the system does not offer a 3rd or 4th option for them to show that talent because the team either can't or won't set picks for each other. Still the Pistons failures really does not involve the offense when is comes to winning or losing. If you have a football team that allows 50 points a game how can you win?

The players coming off the bench look out of sync. the combinations being used is not working. One of the big issues involves Killian Hayes. What was I thinking over the summer actually believing that he would get his s*** together as a defender and point guard. He is a horrible defender or maybe looks that way because of Casey's system. Which is it? Anyway to cut it he has not been able to understand that you cannot allow your assigned man to get between you and the basket. You cannot overplay a guard who has not used his dribble especially when you seem to go over the one side of the player trying to force him in one direction. This is the NBA where every guard can use either hand and drive in any direction they decide to go and will go in the opposite direction from you if you are the side rather than in the front of your man. Yes Killian they will get a free ride right into the heart of the paint because of your scatterbrain idea of jumping around or standing trying to guess instead of keeping the feet moving in place with the legs spread so you can react quickly after the offensive player decides what he wants to do. Hayes has become a liability on defense where last season he stood out after the All Star break as a guy who might stay in the league for his defense and passing ability. The summer league showed that he was out of shape and disinterested in those games. I was really surprised by his attitude. Players do not seem very confident while playing with him right now. He does't appear to have confidence in himself either. Weaver will need to do something in the future to improve the backcourt but Cunningham and Ivey are going to be fantastic together eventually. That is the one bright spot. The Pistons will have a superior backcourt for sure unless injuries come into play. Who else will step up among the younger player is a mystery. Will it be Bey? I thought so before the season started but I wonder if he is big enough or dedicated enough to become a really good defender or rebounder.

[lemonpen]

Our defensive scheme of switching everything is killing us.  
(1) Last night looked like Free Chile on every other perimeter screen.  We couldn't prevent or slow many Pacer ball handlers from turning the corner.  
(2) How many times can we wind up with a guard matched up on a center.  They either pick up fouls or surrender uncontested hoops.  Sheesh!!!

Wanna know why Bojan seemingly came so cheaply?  
(1)  He is a HUGE defensive liability.  Matadoor D.  Poor efforts.
(2)  When he puts the ball on the floor the most we can hope for is a defensive foul.

Stewie
Dude needs to have a breakout 3pt shooting day.  Soon.  D has no reason to leave the paint.   We're wasting possessions playin 4 on 5.

Murph
I'm going the other way on Duren.  Play him, a lot, just as we have allowed each 1st rounder.   I say push him to go harder. He has done his thing without fouling. We need difference makers, and he's going to be one on both ends.

Cade
I don't care the reason for his passivity, he simply cannot continue to be so inefficient.

Hayes
Good defender....... Good passer......... balderdash!!  I don't see it.  
After 3 games I believe Ivey has 10 times better understanding of how to draw & dish, creating opportunities for others.
KH is too handsy and has a very slow defensive first step, repeatedly leaving him riding the offensive player's hip.
Lastly, I sense he is a poor court general.  (need more data)

Casey
I'm gonna shut up about him until game 21.  We should be able to clean up some of this crap by then.

[Murph]

This season is going south fast.  As others have pointed out, our schedule is brutal.  We are going to be something like 5-15 after our first 20 games.

Our defense is horrible.  We need Bagley back in the starting lineup badly, really badly.  

Bojan is a great shooter, but he’s a ‘tweeter...he’s too slow to play the wing, and too small and weak to play PF.  He needs to come off the bench, where he isn’t as great a defensive liability.  He could be a 6th man candidate coming off the bench, until he can be traded.  

The Pistons should start a young core, and then they should put together a veteran 2nd unit that can come in and restore order, and provide stability.

Starters:
Cade
Ivey
Bey
Stewart
Bagley

2nd unit:
Hayes
Joseph
Diallo
Bojan
Noel

Duren is only 18 years old.  He needs to go to the G-League and play every day, until Noel is traded or gets hurt again.  

Hayes’ lack of development is becoming alarming.  He’s a 3rd year player.  He just isn’t getting it at all.  I can’t believe we have this kid under contract for 2 more seasons.  What should we do with him when Burks comes back?  I’d be tempted to play CoJo at PG and Burks at SG on the 2nd unit, when Burks comes back.  It might be time to give up on Hayes completely.

Oh...and FIRE CASEY, and hire Frank Vogel.

[Phil-Good]

From what I see of our first two regular season games. The Pistons need to go old school. Dive deep into real Detroit basketball. And that’s becoming a defense first team. The Pistons have talent but are a bunch of soft guys. The Pistons need to embrace Pistons culture and get away from todays game a little.

I can name the type of player the Pistons could use. E. Mobley, Bencaro, Patrick Williams, R.Hachimura, J. Jackson Jr. etc. the Pistons need A power Forward who can cause problems on both ends. The Pistons are too small up front. Stew is getting killed out there with no help on the front line. None!! The Pistons need a 4 or 5 man with shot blocking skills who can also score the ball. Evan Mobley type.

The identity has to start on defense first, second and 3rd.

Also, Cade old man Cunningham has to pick up his game. Cade is a closer. But the Pistons need him in the 2nd and 3rd quarters to show his Azz.

Jaden Ivey. I fear for this kid. I really do. This kid needs a mid-range jumper like I have never seen before. The way he plays, major injured has to be a concern. We have seen it too much in the NBA. D. Wade. D. Rose, Allen Iverson, J.Wall etc. No way you can make it 82 games crashing to the floor 15 times per game. You career will be filled with nagging injuries and a short shelf life. FIND A JUMPSHOT Son. Go watch D.Wade in 2006 after he mastered his midrange shot. Unstoppable! Nobody could defend D.Wade Finals MVP.

[cool breeze]

The Kevin Knox experiment must end.  He’s horrible.  Braxton Key is better in every way.  Key should be getting all of Knox’s minutes until guys get healthy, and Knox should never play again.  

Until Hayes can gain some confidence and hit some shots, he simply needs to stop shooting 3 pointers.  All of his shots should be floaters in the lane, lay-ups or put-backs.

Bojan is red hot.  Trade this guy before the deadline.  He’s extremely valuable to a contender.  He’s on and expiring contract and he shoots lights out. We could get a 1st round pick and change for him.

Bey looked outstanding last night.

I agree regarding Knox. I am not sure if the Pistons can send him down to the minor league affiliate but if so then do it now. He should not be part of the team at this time.

Killian Hayes just allowed another nail to be pounded into his coffin as to his life as an NBA player. His defense was simply incredible horrible. As a perimeter defender Hayes showed zero ability to prevent dribble penetration. He is so easy to fake out at any position on the floor. My only hope for Killian was the possibility that he could at some point be a great NBA defender. But nothing has changed in fact it appears he did not do anything over the summer to get any better as a defender. That showed up in the Summer league games and last night where Killian was a day late and a dollar short so to speak relating to covering his assigned man. Forget his inept ability as a help defender or a guy who is capable of offering any resistance on opponents fast breaks. He always makes the wrong decision or doesn't try at all. Nobody played well on defense but for Killian to stay in the league he has to stand out in that area because his offense is so primitive in development. Where is the foot work in this man's game relating to pulling up for a 6 foot jump shot. He is off balance. His base when he shoots the ball is lazy. Got to get the legs spread a bit and the knees bent Killian. You can't play the game standing straight on both ends. It hurts to bend the knees though so why try right? This game was very disturbing for any Piston fan to watch for many reasons but the play of Killian Hayes looked like he was playing his first game in high school. I would say that Hayes might be the 7th man in a good college program now because of his lack of mental toughness. I imagine kIllian having to adjust on offense to playing against multiple defenses or to be able to run a more complex offense in the half court that good guards have to deal with when they play offense against teams that play hard core multiple defenses. Hayes always looks to be out of control on both ends of the floor. He never looks comfortable. It is still early but he should lose a lot of minutes of playing time as the coach loses trust in this man. Come on Killian get your mind right.

I don't agree that Bey really had a good game last night. His defense was really bad. He was lazy on the defensive end. He scored but seemed to small to cope with any player he guarded. Nobody really put out a lot of energy on defense but Cade Cunningham relating to perimeter defense. Bey may not have the quickness necessary to become a good two way player but this was only one game. I thought he played defense pretty well in the previous game and passed the ball well too. This game was all about getting his scoring average up while resting too much on defense.

The two rookies but had poor outings on the defensive end. Ivey was often beaten off the dribble. I am sure that Ivey knows now that in the NBA you have to move your feet more and limit gambling or guessing as to which direction your assigned man will try to go around you. However, Ivey showed again how his quickness and smarts on offense has impacted the offense. There is a lot to take in for sure so Ivey gets a pass from me regarding his failures on the defensive end. Duren looked like a lost puppy in this game most of the time. He was confused regarding the defensive rotations and didn't looks a strong on the boards or around the rim as a defender.

Detroit gave up 72 first half points and those points were made against very little resistance. The Piston defense looked a lot like the Washington Generals. But this complete blow out might be a wake up call. The coaching staff needs to figure out how to build some positive chemistry with the 2nd unit. I can't say that anyone coming off the bench earned more playing time. Even Cory Joseph looked like he didn't belong in the NBA last night on either end of the floor. For those who watched this game how did you like the Piston free throw shooting in the first half? Incredible how everyone had trouble making a simple free throw. Time to get the injured players back in uniform.

The Pacers are next. Time to show what the players true character is really like. Good luck!

[Murph]

The Kevin Knox experiment must end.  He’s horrible.  Braxton Key is better in every way.  Key should be getting all of Knox’s minutes until guys get healthy, and Knox should never play again.  

Until Hayes can gain some confidence and hit some shots, he simply needs to stop shooting 3 pointers.  All of his shots should be floaters in the lane, lay-ups or put-backs.

Bojan is red hot.  Trade this guy before the deadline.  He’s extremely valuable to a contender.  He’s on and expiring contract and he shoots lights out. We could get a 1st round pick and change for him.

Bey looked outstanding last night.

[Phil-Good]

NY game was 1 more azz lashing from the Knicks. I don't like it. But the Pistons are young and need to learn and grow.

1: Cade. Cade is a slow burn. You want your leader to be smart, confident, mature and skilled. Cade is all that and then some. But Cade plays like a old man! And that's ok. I expect more from Cade. I need more from the old man. That's my new name for Cade. Old-Man.

2. J.Ivey. Ivey is like Corn Flakes, or Powder Gatorade. But you don't add mile or water. You add a jumpshot and you instantly have a great F.U.K.I.N.G product. Add a jumpshot and Ivey is a immediate NBA All Star from day one. Ivey is also a perfect opposit to Old Man Cade.

3. Hayes. Hayes will never be as good as his #7 overall pick. But Hayes can become the next Lindsey Hunter, D.Fisher, Ron Harper, Mookie..Blaylock type of PG. A guy who defends and makes winning plays.

I think the Pistons can win about 30 Games. If everybody stays healthy 33 to 34. I expect a big leap next season and I expect Troy to shock the League in the summer of 2023 with a big time trade with unlimited cap space.



Resign Bey for 4 years 80 Mill. Stewart for 4 years 75 Million. Hayes for 4 years 23 Million.

Keep building! Go Pistons!!

[Oracle]

Way too many missed shots!!! Then again, we missed a ton right at the basket... WTF!!!

But Don nailed it, our schedule is BRUTAL early!


News Flash: Tomorrow is another day 

[cool breeze]

Nice win at home against another rebuilding team.  There was a lot to be hopeful about and a lot to be concerned about, but a win is a win.


The Good:
Coming back from a 15 point 1st quarter deficit.
Bojan’s shooting.  60% from the 3 point line.
Cade’s assists.  10 with only 3 turnovers.
Stewart getting to the line.  7 of 8 from the FT line.
Ivey’s overall game.  19 pts, 4 asts, 3 rbds, 3 stls in his 1st NBA game.  The kid’s going    to be a superstar.
Duren’s rebounding.  10 rebounds with 0 PFs.
Joseph could not miss a shot.  He was perfect.


The Bad:
Allowing the Magic to reel off 19 unanswered points.
Hayes still needs to improve his shooting.   He did a lot of things well, but 1-9 is unacceptable.  If he can’t shoot, then shoot less!!!
Duren’s turnovers.  


The Ugly:
Knox.  What does this guy do well?  Why is he even on the court, on the team, in the NBA???   I know, I know...he went to Kentucky.  I can’t wait for Burks, Bagley or Livers to get healthy so i never have to watch this guy again.

First response to Oracle:
You see what I see relating to the value of Diallo. This guy scored 30 or more points in three games when the coach actually created plays for him. If Diallo is on the baseline corner why not set a screen for him. His defender knows not to give up the baseline so a simple screen to allow Diallo to get by his defender and get into the center of the paint is a not brainer. That is where Diallo shows his finishing skills in and around the paint. He is much like Ivey in the sense that they both have an extremely quick first step off the dribble. But Casey's coaching team does nothing to help Diallo become an amazing scorer with the 2nd unit. Knowing that the coaching staff is out to screw his chances of success, Diallo has to become a more fierce defender. He can do that because of his quickness and jumping ability. Get in the stat sheet in a way other than scoring and coaches will be forced to play you. Otherwise he is in for a long dull season of sitting on the bench or being traded to another team that notices Diallo's abilities.

Murph :
you covered everything well with few words. KnoxII fired up some low percentage 3 point shots at the wrong time in most situations. His defense was not very good either as he stood flat footed just holding up his arms up when his man went up for a jump shot in and around the paint. Those shots have to be challenged. On the surface Knox looks imposing with his size and agility. What has happened regarding his lack of development is a mystery but responsibility rests with him. Maybe he needs hypnosis to install a more competitive spirit within himself. He could get in better physical condition which would allow him to become a better rebounder/defender. He could elect to move more without the ball and get mid range shots or at least shoot the ball when he is unguarded and otherwise improve his passing so he can help teammates get good shots. His size is fantastic so I hope he can turn things around. Imagine having that body and getting the opportunity he had in his last game. He must be down on himself a bit.

One observation you didn't include relates to Duren. if he doesn't figure out how to shoot a free throw opposing teams are going to embarrass him with intentional fouls. That could end up affecting his overall amazing game. Duren has done a good job getting himself ready physically and mentally coming into his first pro season with the Pistons. How many 18 year old draftees have ever played a game like Duren played against the Magic? Coaches need to help him at least become a 50% free throw shooter before the All Star break. His current technique is really bad so I wonder why the assistant coaches have not gotten him on the right path yet.

Our Pistons have a horrible schedule with back to back games against good teams. The goal should be to try hard to stay in the games with a chance to win at the end. If they lose that way instead of getting blown out, good things will happen as the season progresses. I cannot believe based on how the team played in this last game that our Pistons will not make the playoffs. Cade Cunningham played a very unselfish game and he missed a lot of shots and caused a few to many turnovers. That happened because our all star player is not yet in "game shape". He looked tired at times. Game shape for a super star is far different from a regular player in the NBA. Cade looked tired in this last game because he was playing defense, trying to block shots, handling the ball a high percentage of the time while trying to penetrate the defense. Soon Cade will get to that superior energy level and incredible things will happen on a regular basis regarding his shooting percentage, low turnovers, amount of assists and Piston wins. He now has some really good assets playing with him. The game is going to get a lot easier for everyone on this team as the season progresses. At least that is what i hope happens this year. When all the players are healthy the competition will be fierce relating to playing time. Noel - Bagley - etc will provide more options than the Pistons have had in many years. I just hope Ivey and Duren can stay healthy and keep playing the way they played in this last game. Killian Hayes knows he is a better player than he has shown Piston fans. In this last game Killian came into the game to replace Ivey after Ivey's man kept making 3s. I think that was a good move by the coach at the time to show Ivey he has a lot to learn and for Hayes that the coaching staff trusts him as a defender. It didn't work out well though as the same guy kept making shots from distance. It took Duren to accidentally step on Hayes' man in the family jewels location to get him out of the game. Hayes just needs to get more confidence and make the game slow down more so he can eliminate mental mistakes. I keep saying to myself what is wrong with him? He has so much quickness for his size Hayes should be so much more successful than he has been.

We all need to be grateful and thankful that the dark ages are over and we no longer have to listen to players like Charlie V who after a blowout loss would say " Our losing had nothing to do with our talent". The GM and President at the time thought he had hit gold with that free agent signing and ignored those comments while acting as if success was just around the corner. Effort was never very important to the people in charge. I wonder what Charlie V's definition of talent really meant. I can only speculate as to what conversations went on between the GM and the head coach. Coach - "Hey you need to buy out some bad contracts and give me a chance to win some games." GM "No coach it is up to you to coach these guys. They have the talent and you are not bringing out their talent." How can anyone stop an alcoholic from drinking? How can anyone get an individual to give an honest effort when they have a guaranteed contract and enjoy being a smart ass?

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