Trade

[Murph]

The Lakers have nothing the Pistons need.

Bojan to Phoenix for Shamet, Saric’s expiring contract and the Sun’s 2023 1st round pick.

[cool breeze]

This experiment was interesting to watch. Thanks for mixing it up coaching staff. Boston was successfully attacking the paint earlier with Stewart and Bojan. Bojan was keeping the Pistons ahead with his scoring in the 3rd quarter and he was defending Boston's best scorer most of the time before Diallo came into the game.Neither were effective because the coaching staff didn't come up with a plan to help those two players who drew that difficult assignment. You could see that there was nobody in the painted area for the Pistons so Boston players started getting easy baskets close to the hoop and of course a lot of 2nd chance opportunities because Piston players were watching from the perimeter. If you have watched Dallas this season you would know that they look like a different team now because everyone is playing defense under Jason Kidd. He constructed a good defensive system in training camp. That is when you are supposed to have a plan. There is a difference between philosophies of head coaches. However, I give credit to Casey and his assistants for trying the Bagley- Duren combination. Paint defense improved. Duren even tried and made a nice turn around jump shot from about 5 feet from the basket. It looked really good. Bagley and Stewart's size did matter on the defensive end. Maybe with more time together and with Cade with that group instead of Cory Joseph, good things will happen. But this was happening when Boston had their 2nd unit on the floor so we need to see more of this before rushing to judgment. The Pistons have a lot of options with player combinations so I am happy there at least is something new to think about. I think it was more that Duren was in the game than Bagley that temporarily stopped the bleeding. But this coaching staff cannot continue to just watch the game when it is clear that opponents are cleaning up in the Piston paint. They need to make quicker decisions with player combinations when things are going downhill.

After watching more of the last game with Boston I will reverse my opinion regarding Duren relating to his playing time. There is nobody on this current Piston team who offers what this player can give to the Piston defense. He is bigger and stronger than anyone on the team. He might be more athletic as well. For a man who is only 18 years old, it is crazy how he changes the game at times with just his presence. He has only had one performance so far where he didn't look engaged. I would play him about 18 minutes a game until the All Star break. Keep Duren hungry for more because he has the best upside of any big man on the Piston roster. We should see more of Bagley at power forward now maybe playing with Stewart too. I would love to see a lineup of Ivey, Cunningham, Duren, Bagley and Bojan playing small forward. Size does matter if the defensive system is created properly to take advantage of it. The Pistons could really eliminate one of their biggest weaknesses which is allowing opponents second and third chance opportunities.

Final thought for this Boston game involves offense. Why didn't the Pistons attack the paint in this game starting early in the 4th quarter? Why settle for 3 point shots early in the shot clock that were difficult contested shots? The paint was wide open. Horeford didn't play. The strategy again was flawed. The coaching staff must have liked what they saw because they allowed it to happen. Coaching accountability is now important. You cannot just create a game plan at time and not make quick adjustments relating to players in rotations at certain points in a game. You have to have the ability to see what he happening on the floor, know why things are not going well and what you need to do regarding player combinations and strategy. It appears that unless Ivey and Bojan are on the floor, the team goes back to low IQ basketball Performance on both defense and offense. If the offense is going to be based on 3 point shooting then Bojan should get 90% of the shots. Then again if the owner hired a new coaching staff then maybe in this game the team would have attacked the paint more and attempted shots closer to the basket. When you need a basket do you really want to attempt a low percentage 3 point shot when your shooting percentage from that distance sucks? Casey must love it because we have been seeing this nonsense since he arrived. Changing coaching staffs is a big thing especially at this point in time in the season. But after this season is over and nothing changes on the floor for the Pistons in the areas Casey's various teams through the years have always struggled with, Weavers biggest decision yet will have to happen. Who will he pick as the next head coach of the Detroit Pistons?

[Murph]

Don...I think you make a very good point.  I’m not ready to throw Cade under the bus just yet.  I think he’s played well enough to retain his starting job as point guard.  He still needs to improve his 3 point shooting and drastically cut down on his turnovers.  But he played great at the end of last year.  If he can return to that level of play, he should continue as the Pistons primary ball handler and decision maker.  

However, I agree 100% that while CC is out, Ivey needs to run the point.  We’ve already seen enough of Hayes.  The best we can hope for is that Hayes becomes an over-paid, mediocre bench warmer.  For the last 3 years, he hasn’t even been mediocre; he’s been terrible.  No one wants to call Hayes a bust, but realistically that’s probably where Hayes is headed.

So while Cade is out, let’s keep an open mind and see what Ivey can do at the point.  There is nothing indicating that Ivey will not succeed.  His game has no flaws.  He takes care of the ball, he’s quick as lightning, he’s big and athletic, he shoots well, he’s one of the best defenders on the team, and his basketball IQ is off the charts.  Let’s see what he can do as the starting PG against a Raptors team missing Siakem and Van Fleet.

And if Ivey eventually develop into the starting PG, Cade can easily transition to starting SG or SF.  


Oh, and I agree, FIRE CASEY!!!

[cool breeze]

It’s good to see Bagley back.  As he works himself into game shape, I think he will become a major contributor once again.  Personally, I would like to see him start, at least until Duren matures and develops in a year or two. Bagley has a great pedigree, he played well last season, and he’s still only 23.  I think he should be treated as a member of our young core.

Stewart is the surprise of the season; he’s the one player who is outperforming expectations, at least statistically speaking.  He needs to start and play major minutes.  IMO, at 6’8, he’s not big enough to play center, but I think he should start and play at least 32 minutes every night at PF.  I think he’s quick enough to guard opposing PFs, and his perimeter shooting will continue to improve.

I think Duren, as the youngest player in the NBA, has plenty of time to develop. But I can understand those who are calling for him to play as many minutes as possible, as long as he stays out of foul trouble. I would strongly advocate for him to come off the bench, but again, I can understand those who are calling for him to start.  Eventually, he will develop into our best center, and a very imposing defensive player.

That leaves Noel as the odd man out.  He’s only played 4 games this season, and barring injury to other big men, doesn’t look to play significant minutes any time soon.  In a way, that’s too bad.  He’s still only 28, and he’s currently the best defender among our big men by a wide margin.  But life isn’t fair, especially life in the NBA.  The best case scenario would be to include Noel in a trade before the deadline.

If we start Stewart at PF, and either Bagley or Duren at center, that leaves a dogfight between Bey and Bojan for the starting SF spot. All things being equal, I’d vote for Bey.  He’s been a member of the starting rotation for 3 years now, and has played well.  He’s also a slightly better defender than Bojan. And at 23, he hopefully will continue to develop, improve his shooting and be a valuable part of our core for years to come.  

And Bojan would be a huge asset coming of the bench, playing starters minutes at both forward spots.  Bojan will be 34 soon, and at that age, he is a quickly depreciating asset.  We need to trade him as soon as possible for a combination of young players and/or picks.

What makes basketball great is that no two people see things the same way. I believe it is too early to tell what kind of team the Pistons might become by All Star break. Too many players have been absent but now everyone is healthy except for Cade. My disagreement with you is with Bojan. He is the smartest player on this team and a clutch shooter. He can create his shot in the paint and make those shots. Nobody else on this team can do that especially Bey. I am very disappointed with Bey. But I really want him to be successful. I just don't believe Bey is a starting caliber small forward yet for a winning team. His lack of height really shows against many teams. To me his true test happened when Cade couldn't play. I thought Bey was a leader but he is has not been a key player on the defensive end and often is not part of the offense. At times he scores over 20 points but does he rebound or offer anything regarding help defense? I believe that Bojan should be the starting small forward if the Pistons really want to make the playoffs this year. Bey could come off the bench as a 2 or 3 and be more effective. Yet he would have to compete with Diallo who in my opinion is the best defender on the team and a guy who has been able to get the Pistons untracked and back into blowout games with his tough play and quickness in the paint. Ask me this last summer and I would say Bey is the 2nd best player on the Piston team. Right now even considering the scoring stats that show Bey can score, I believe that Bojan can win games in crunch time and get the team on the scoreboard in the first quarter on most nights. Sure he is older and if the Pistons decide to tank than I agree with you on this issue. But this team has a good chance to start a big winning streak when the injured guys get in game shape and Cade returns. We shouldn't count out this group of Piston players just yet even considering how inept the coaching staff has been.

Center position is still a mystery. I have been on Stewart this year because he has been shooting too many 3 point shots out of rhythm at times when the Pistons really need any kind of score meaning they need to work as a team to get someone the best possible shot. Stewart doesn't make that extra pass at times when he shoots those 3s. So that is the negative I see on this man. What I like is his spirit and toughness. He has really gotten better as an all around basketball player in the last 2 weeks. So against matchups like Boston or teams with weaker or shorter centers than Stewart has earned his stripes enough to start at center. Power forward is another matter. Beef Stew sure could improve Detroit's defense if he played the 4 and was dedicated to becoming an elite defender and rebounder. He has a nice looking jump shot from mid range but he doesn't like to shoot it in that area of the court. Stewart would have to improve his ball handling but I think he could really become an asset at the 4 for sure. Bagley is a real sleeper. Like you I really believe he can boost this team into a better place and perhaps into the playoffs this season. He plays really well with Cade and I suspect he will shine with Ivey as well. If Bagley plays his heart out he will be the starting center. I agree that Duren is not ready if the Pistons really want to win this year. Otherwise then if the team wants to tank then play him a lot to guarantee more loses. I don't mean that in a bad way because Duren is for sure going to be a force in the paint for years to come. As for now, Bagley has to prove himself on the defensive end as a shot blocker. The cool thing is now the Pistons have options. It is going to be interesting to see who can help the team most when January comes around.

Now for the real reason I decided to write today. I am really disappointed with the coaching staff. This game against Boston should have been a win for the Pistons. In case posters are not actually watching the games know this. Ivey is going to be the player who changes everything for the Detroit Pistons. He has something special that I saw with Isiah Thomas when he was a rookie. Ivey knows what it takes to win games unlike many other NBA players. He hates to lose games. He never just goes though the motions. He has an emotional attachment to the Detroit Pistons because of family. This guy is going to be a leader and will lead the right way. So it was clear watching Detroit's first matchup with Boston at Boston that the quickest player on the floor for either team was Ivey and he knew that he had that advantage. We can talk about Bojan and Bey all we want but people would have to be blind not to be excited that we have a player who is going to be a really tough matchup with any NBA player in the league eventually. Detroit actually has 2 extremely gifted players in Cunningham and Ivey. We are so lucky but maybe not very lucky having this coaching staff. KNOWING HOW IVEY PERFORMED AS THE PRIMARY BALL HANDLER AGAINST BOSTON AT BOSTON, WHY DID THE COACHING STAFF ALLOW KILLIAN HAYES TO HAVE THAT ROLE IN THE FIRST HALF OF THIS HOME GAME? WHY WAS IVEY ON THE WING STANDING WITHOUT TOUCHING THE BASKETBALL FOR SO MANY POSSESSIONS IN THE 2ND QUARTER? It was so irritating because the Pistons could have built up a big lead in the 2nd with Ivey's leadership. Hayes has really improved but he is not the guy I would pick to run the offense unless Ivey is resting on the bench. With Cade being injured to me it is important to give the leadership role to our amazing rookie now. Boston feared Ivey in the first matchup. They couldn't deal with his speed and great decision making skills so the Boston players must have loved the fact that Hayes was running the show. Maybe Casey was trying to showcase Killian Hayes instead of trying to win the game. Anyway during this time period in the 2nd quarter while the coaches were sleeping, I was thinking hey maybe if Isiah Thomas were a rookie playing under the leadership of this coaching crew, maybe Zeke would also be the off guard not running the offense for Casey's team. Ivey's energy will change this team if he allowed to lead. Players will come to games better prepared and maybe might concentrate more on making a simple free throw instead of just throwing them up.

Man it Feels good to get that off my chest. Good luck Piston players!

[Murph]

It’s good to see Bagley back.  As he works himself into game shape, I think he will become a major contributor once again.  Personally, I would like to see him start, at least until Duren matures and develops in a year or two. Bagley has a great pedigree, he played well last season, and he’s still only 23.  I think he should be treated as a member of our young core.

Stewart is the surprise of the season; he’s the one player who is outperforming expectations, at least statistically speaking.  He needs to start and play major minutes.  IMO, at 6’8, he’s not big enough to play center, but I think he should start and play at least 32 minutes every night at PF.  I think he’s quick enough to guard opposing PFs, and his perimeter shooting will continue to improve.

I think Duren, as the youngest player in the NBA, has plenty of time to develop. But I can understand those who are calling for him to play as many minutes as possible, as long as he stays out of foul trouble. I would strongly advocate for him to come off the bench, but again, I can understand those who are calling for him to start.  Eventually, he will develop into our best center, and a very imposing defensive player.

That leaves Noel as the odd man out.  He’s only played 4 games this season, and barring injury to other big men, doesn’t look to play significant minutes any time soon.  In a way, that’s too bad.  He’s still only 28, and he’s currently the best defender among our big men by a wide margin.  But life isn’t fair, especially life in the NBA.  The best case scenario would be to include Noel in a trade before the deadline.

If we start Stewart at PF, and either Bagley or Duren at center, that leaves a dogfight between Bey and Bojan for the starting SF spot. All things being equal, I’d vote for Bey.  He’s been a member of the starting rotation for 3 years now, and has played well.  He’s also a slightly better defender than Bojan. And at 23, he hopefully will continue to develop, improve his shooting and be a valuable part of our core for years to come.  

And Bojan would be a huge asset coming of the bench, playing starters minutes at both forward spots.  Bojan will be 34 soon, and at that age, he is a quickly depreciating asset.  We need to trade him as soon as possible for a combination of young players and/or picks.

[cool breeze]

As in several previous games our Pistons executed their offense well only to miss too many easy shots. When the ball was not bouncing their way soft defense reappeared causing the team to get 12 to 14 points behind. Duran played his worst game against NY. He just was not in it most of the time but the coach didn't notice it appears because Casey kept him in the game. You shouldn't reward young players who are not playing with maximum effort. But still he woke up a bit when the team started to get untracked and made a huge comeback. It seems to me that the key guy is Diallo when this type of thing happens. He and Killian Hayes played some inspired This was Killian 2nd game in a row where he made an impact. Why coach Casey started Cory Joseph instead of Killian is puzzling but maybe he thought that Cory could actually defend Brunson. That didn't happen as Joseph quickly got in foul trouble in the opening moments of the game.

Ivey might be convincing the coaching staff that he should have the ball in hands more playing point guard and maybe Cade could slip into either the 2 or 3 at times. Ivey is playing with passion and he is quicker than anyone on the floor in most games. He makes things happen because he is not afraid to attack the paint. Without Cade the most effective players were Ivey, Bojan, Hayes and Diallo. I say Diallo because of how he creates trouble for opponents in the paint on defense. The team would be better off sacrificing some offense for better defense when games are in the closing minutes. The Team got within a few points when he was sent to the bench 2 different times in the NY game and then allowed a series of 2nd chance opportunities that broke Detroit's back. The group that Casey has been selecting in crunch time fails to box out, pick up cutters on the weak side who end up getting layups, and give a half assed effort to challenge shots. This stupid bad habit of jumping out on shooters and throwing arms up should always land a player on the bench. You need to take quick little steps and keep the feet moving when a shooter hasn't used his dribble and if you do make the effort to contest a shot don't fake it really try to cause disruption.

The Pistons could have won half of their games so far if they could play average team defense. Ivey is a game changer for the Pistons. His confidence is growing. The combination of Cade, Ivey and Hayes might yet become a real force in the NBA. The combinations at the end of games isn't working. But I am loving watching the Pistons this season because the are going to get a lot better. I suspect that Stewart is going to improve his overall game by 20% by the end of this season. Getting Bagley back might bring more consistency with paint defense but he hasn't shown that he actually is interested in becoming a solid defender. That will be key to him to secure playing time. Give better effort on the defensive glass and show our rookie center that you do not take plays off. The future is bright. But I wonder if Bey will be part of it. When Cade down with an injury this NY game was the time for Bey to become a leader by example. He didn't shine. Too bad but there will always be the next game.

[cool breeze]

You know who’s doing a great job as a new head coach...Chauncey Billups in Portland. He’s turned around that franchise in record time.  And it’s not as if Billups wasn’t right under our noses.  Geesh.

Are we going to refuse to hire another entire generation of Pistons greats, like we refused to hire Zeke, Laimbeer and Mahon?  

What could possibly be the reason for Weaver’s blind loyalty toward Casey?  Has Casey ever done anything to deserve it?   Have any of Casey’s Pistons teams ever performed up to expectations?  

Just look at all our wildly optimistic preseason predictions this year?   Did any of us expect this sh*t show?

I could come up with a list of 5 proven and available NBA coaches right now who could coach Casey’s socks off.

Maybe it is money Murph. They extended Casey's contract didn't they. Maybe Casey is popular with the players and management doesn't want to create any negatives while the team is finding their way individually as NBA basketball players. Many of the players are not sound defensive players. Some games they bring good effort and other times some players looks disinterested and not disappointed when a team scores easily against them doing the same thing over and over. Players need to get their assigned man off their comfortable 3 point shooting spots. Yet players do not seem to know what they are supposed to do as a unit. It doesn't look good for the coaching staff. Their defensive strategy in training camp was non existent and that resulted in bad showings in pre season. Now we fans can see the value of a center like Duren and maybe the coaching staff is in shock. What should they do? Should they start Duren and bring Stewart off the bench? To use a smaller center a team needs to have higher quality defenders at other positions. But the coaching staff didn't create a plan for that smaller center to be more successful. It appears that many believe that the coaching staff under Casey did not have a real plan before training camp began other than hey lets have the guys just switch all the time but play man to man. The players are now conditioned to figuring out things for themselves during games on the fly. Maybe that is the way things are done a a rule in the NBA as opposed to high school and college. But there are good coaches out there who could really help this group of talented young men. In the end it will always be the players who win or lose. We have two really good starting guards now. They might go through this season and with 25 games to go will have a team meeting and set the bar a lot higher for the team relating to how they individually play defense. Maybe the players will fix things without a coaching change if they get tire enough of losing like they did in Boston.

[cool breeze]

Ivey was outstanding against Boston. How a guy that young could know more than his older teammates and maybe the coaching staff is amazing. He knew Boston is weak on paint defense and they lack quickness as defenders. Instead of trying to match Boston's 3s Ivey took it upon himself to make plays for his teammates while also scoring almost at will because of his quickness. Wow that is the first time I have said WOW about Ivey. He is the real deal.

Hayes must be feeling pressure because of how quickly Ivey has matured in his first season. Hayes has a lot of athletic ability but so did Darko. It appears to me he hadn't ever been a key player on teams as a younger kid. He appears to be very inexperienced in his ability to think 2 plays ahead. He dribble way too much and that gets him in big trouble with turnovers. Yet against Boston Killian at least started to knock down shots from several areas of the court. I hate to give up on him at this point but he might need two years to become a confident players. His defense is suspect as well as he doesn't seem to be a serious confident defender and that should be his strength now. Boston was an improvement but by the end of this season he will have to show he belongs in the NBA. He hasn't earned the playing time he has received since being drafted. But maybe the Piston brain trust is doing the right thing and giving him time to come around.

Duren is for sure going to rock if he keeps his head on right moving forward. He can become a defender like Ben with a bigger body. He can become a guy who can score in the paint. What he has done so far is amazing being he is only 18 and playing center in the NBA. This guy could turn the Piston defense into something special if the team has a high quality coaching staff.

I do not want Bojan Traded. The Team needs him. I see Bojan pissed at himself when he misses a free throw and how he talks to his teammates. He is a smart basketball player who is playing in a dysfunctional system with players who are too used to losing. Watching this team effort on defense was very disappointing against Boston. Half assed effort will get you nowhere. Bey is undersized as a defender in today's game at small forward. Bojan should be starting at small forward. Bey could be more effective coming off the bench playing either shooting guard or small forward though.

Against Boston the starting 5 with the exception of Ivey and Bojan looked horrible especially on defense but also were inept mentally on offense. Cade looked under the weather.

Finally I see this team getting a lot better. Even with Boston making those wide open 3s if Detroit would have kept Ivey's idea of attacking the paint instead of trying to match Boston's 3s the game would have been a lot closer. The 2nd unit played 80% better on defense than the starters. The coaching staff might be on thin ice but you can't coach effort. The starters as a group were not in this game mentally. That is because they maybe have not suffered enough loses to become embarrassed enough to get their s*** together.

[Sparma]

Even Mrs. Casey believes he should be fired at this point.  Weaver and Gores are the sole hold outs.

Murph, you've raised the question who Casey has helped.  Hard to think of an answer.  Maybe he's helped veteran guards like Delon Wright, Corey Joseph, and Rodney McGruder.

Someone at DBB passed along stats of youngsters regressing in shooting under Casey, including Cunningham, Stewart, and Hayes.

Telling, but maybe not entirely fair.  

Stewart started off in the NBA shooting over 40% for a stretch, but it was clear even at the time that was an aberration.

Cade's a weird case in that he shot 40% from three in college, admittedly with a shorter line and lesser defenders.  But then he was shooting nothing but blanks his first few games as a pro.  He appears to have good form, but he hasn't been a good shooter in the NBA, and was terrible the other night.

Hayes shot 85% FT in Germany, but he's been a bad shooter in the NBA and awful this season, except for the other night.  Supposedly they worked hard with him in the off-season.

I guess it's really tough to significantly improve at things, especially at an NBA shooter.  Still, it's a bad look for Casey.

What bugs me even more about Casey is that he seems to have no game plan to help Cade who is like top 15 in the league at facing double teams. Or no helpful game plan more generally.

I think the most meaningful change a Piston coach could make right now would be to feature Duren as a genuine rim protector behind the weak defense farther from the basket.  His minutes need to be limited though, I suppose.  The combination of a porous exterior defense and the paradigmatic non-rim protector Stewart (yes, he's a hard working good guy who does get some blocks) behind it is woeful and needs to be limited.

The offensive changes ahead for a coach to make are straightforward, in principal (who starts remains a tough question): 1) Bagley's (imminent?) return will give Cade a fantastic target above the rim.  I'm not convinced the rest of his game, particularly defensive positioning, is fundamentally sound, but we shall see.  Secondly, Burks' imminent return should make Casey look like a more competent coach too.

Casey's gotten every opportunity though, and I hope with Murph and others that his time is up soon.


You've raised the question

You know who’s doing a great job as a new head coach...Chauncey Billups in Portland. He’s turned around that franchise in record time.  And it’s not as if Billups wasn’t right under our noses.  Geesh.

Are we going to refuse to hire another entire generation of Pistons greats, like we refused to hire Zeke, Laimbeer and Mahon?  

What could possibly be the reason for Weaver’s blind loyalty toward Casey?  Has Casey ever done anything to deserve it?   Have any of Casey’s Pistons teams ever performed up to expectations?  

Just look at all our wildly optimistic preseason predictions this year?   Did any of us expect this sh*t show?

I could come up with a list of 5 proven and available NBA coaches right now who could coach Casey’s socks off.

[Murph]

You know who’s doing a great job as a new head coach...Chauncey Billups in Portland. He’s turned around that franchise in record time. And it’s not as if Billups wasn’t right under our noses.  Geesh.

Are we going to refuse to hire another entire generation of Pistons greats, like we refused to hire Zeke, Laimbeer and Mahon?  

What could possibly be the reason for Weaver’s blind loyalty toward Casey?  Has Casey ever done anything to deserve it?   Have any of Casey’s Pistons teams ever performed up to expectations?  

Just look at all our wildly optimistic preseason predictions this year?   Did any of us expect this sh*t show?

I could come up with a list of 5 proven and available NBA coaches right now who could coach Casey’s socks off.

[Murph]

Oracle... thanks for drawing that Willie Mays documentary to my attention.  Growing up, Mays was one of my favorites.  And I’d much rather talk about Mays than that stinker of a game last night.  

Mays had a remarkable career.  As a 17 year old kid, he played for the Birmingham Black Barrons in the 1948 Negro League World Series against the Homestead Grays.  He broke into the MLB in 1951 at the age of 20 and never looked back.  He made 24 All Star teams, won ROY and an MVP, and I remember watching him win a Pennant for the Mets in the 1973 NLCS at the age of 42, against the Big Red Machine.  

But the pinnacle of his career had to be The Catch in the 1954 World Series.  That catch could only have been made at the Polo Grounds.  Mays ran it down 440 feet from home plate at a full sprint. That ball would have been out in any other park in the MLB.   And Mays caught it  with his back to the ball.  He could not have even tracked it.  He got an incredible jump on the ball off the bat, and ran to the spot where he knew it was going to land.  

And The Catch was in the first game of the WS against a heavily favored Cleveland Indians team that had won 111 games, and had arguably the best pitching staff in the history of baseball with HOFers, Bob Feller, Bob Lemon, Early Wynn and Hal Newhouser, along with outfielder Larry Doby.

The Catch came with 2 men on base in the 8th inning of a 2-2 tied game, so it was undoubtedly a game saving play, which completely deflated the Tribe.  The Giants went on to win the game 5-2 in 10 innings,  and sweep the Indians in 4 straight.  It was perhaps the greatest catch in baseball history.  

And what a great ambassador for the game Mays was, with his brilliant smile and basket catches.  Did anyone ever have more fun playing baseball than Mays?

Can't wait to see this HBO Special, the Say Hey Kid, Willie Mays.

He may have been before most of our times, and certainly past his prime if anybody can remember him, but film don't lie!

Because before there was Basketball or Football for me, all I cared about was Baseball, and he and was a GIANT!

[Sparma]

This time with Cade with a miserable outing.

Another terrible defensive showing, including Tatum and Brown both topping 30. No surprise there. And it can't be a surprise either that yet another fringe player emerged as a star for the night against us, in this case Sam Hauser.

Positives? Killian with his best game of the year, Ivey with a fantastic first half, and Duren impressing another opposing announcer as looking well beyond 18.

There's light at the end of the tunnel; it's a long tunnel though.

[Oracle]

Can't wait to see this HBO Special, the Say Hey Kid, Willie Mays.

He may have been before most of our times, and certainly past his prime if anybody can remember him, but film don't lie!

Because before there was Basketball or Football for me, all I cared about was Baseball, and he was a GIANT!

[cool breeze]

Imagine the great Dave Bing in his prime playing with one eye ( he told nobody throughout his career that he was blind in one eye from an injury sustained early in his childhood ) not knowing that as a weak side defender your responsibility would be to turn your head to see who might be crashing to the boards behind you. I watched the last 4 games after returning from vacation and saw the same thing happening over and over. In this last game at the end of the 3rd quarter after a great comeback one of Detroit's best defenders was standing out of position near the baseline about 6 feet from the hoop where Cade's man drove around him heading for the hoop. Diallo instead of quickly moving as a good help defender would do instead stood with his arms extended worried about a possible kick back to an opposing player standing way behind the 3 point line on the wing. Imagine Dennis Rodman in that situation. What would be his instincts? There is no way Cade's man would be able to drive unopposed to the hoop. So many opposing teams know the Pistons do not have an overall defensive plan in place to protect the paint. Piston players are often seen standing around the basket when a shot goes up instead of looking to block out board crashers. This is especially stupid knowing that this Piston team is undersized against teams like Cleveland.

What was this team working on in training camp when systems are being installed for NBA teams? Obviously other NBA coaches do not use Casey's system. Obviously opposing teams know this basic weakness for the Pistons. Mental mistakes are being made over and over with switching when no switching should take place. Doing certain basic things the right way on defense is the difference between winning and losing. For instance last season Ivey played in a good system created by the coaching staff where players all knew how to handle basic situations as they were confronted by them. It was automatic for the players to make the right decisions and they could play multiple defensives. So why does Ivey look lost at times in this Piston system. Why does Bojan look to be a weaker defender. Last game he was assigned the best offensive player for OKC most of the time. He had no help defender on a guy who can score well in many areas. What you don't want is that guy getting shots off in the paint. That is where you need a big player in the lineup who is a savy help defender. This coaching staff hasn't help worked enough with Stewart to become that guy. He is very quick and could for sure do a better job as a help defender but he looks more lost on defense than any other player in my opinion. Most of the time he is not even in the paint when opponents run their half court offense.

Who can make a better impact on this Piston roster as a help defender? First you need as a coaching staff to install a system that allows for players to help each other more especially in the paint. Casey appears to be very popular with the players. I suspect he is a really nice guy who is a father figure as well. But is he a coach who can hire the right people as assistant coaches who know how to create a defense that will work for this roster? The system they have selected hasn't worked and will never work.

There is no doubt in my mind that this group of players can win big despite their lack of size at the small forward and center position. I agree with others who believe that the only player we have who can improve the interior defense is Duren. I thought Noel would make a big difference and maybe he can and just needs to get into game shape which should take about 10 more games. The players all need to pull together and eliminate stupid mistakes that allow big runs by opposing teams. The way to stop runs and scoring slumps is to get good shots closer to the baskets not take low percentage contested 3 point shots. That shows lack of discipline. Players need to get on each other when they just pull up for a 3 point shot after missing 3 in a row instead of making the right pass to another teammate. There appears to be very little accountability within the player leadership core. Zeke would confront players who played with weak minds. Getting better with the mental aspects of the game will really make this team look sweet. I suspect good things will happen as this season progresses.

[Phil-Good]

IDuren is a really young kid. But other than Steward, Duren is our best big man. No reason to baby him. Take off the traning wheels. Let the kid go fly!

The Euro guy is soft and his defense is sub-par. Bey is too up and down. All this would be on my mind when I'm shopping during the trade deadline and during free agent/trade market this summer 2023. The Pistons could use some defense and fire power on a constant basis from the SF position. I'm not sold on Bey as of now. And Bey is like 22 23 years old. He not a young kid.

For the first time in weeks Casey actually used his roster correctly last night. Diallio got extended minutes as well as Livers. These guys bring defense and toughness to the table. You have to extend the minutes of these two guys if you want to show some defensive capabality.

Casey had Diallio, Bey, Livers and Duren all on the floor at the same time. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Real coaching.

[Murph]

First, let me say good win last night.  Stewart, Cade and Ivey all had double doubles.  Bey scored 25, and Cade and Ivey combined for 13 assists. I like that our guards are sharing the play-making responsibilities.


Phil, I agree about moving Stewart to the 4. He has shown potential with his outside shooting in the past, so I think he’ll continue to improve his shooting as the season progresses.  And height wise, he’s much better suited to play the 4.

I’d go with Bagley over Duren as the starting center, once Bagley returns.  I think we all forget how well Bagley played after the trade last year.  If he can return to that form, he’ll be a big asset at center.  And Duren is still pup.  He has many years to develop into the eventual starting center.

I agree that the Pistons should start either Bey or Bojan at SF.  I’d vote for Bey.  I like him as our future at SF.  He played very well last season, and he’s a better defender than Bojan.   Hopefully, Weaver will trade Bojan before the deadline.

And Bojan could come off the bench at either forward spot.

The Pistons should be ok playing old school basketball. A throw-back 4 and 5 will be just fine.
Start Duren and move Beef Stew over to the 4. Bring Bey of the bench and Let Boban.. man the SF position. Or start Bey and ask Boban..to come off rhe bench.  

Somebody has to take a stand and stop trying to be Golden State. You can't make it through the world trying to be somebody else. Just be yourself and do you.

This will beef up the defense and rim protection. If you move the ball around the court you will score. J.Duren will be the clean up man. Stew will continue to bring energy, more rim protection and toughness.  No worries about points. That will come.

The Pistons defense need a face lift. Even at the cost of a few points in the first 15 min of the game.

[Phil-Good]

The Pistons should be ok playing old school basketball. A throw-back 4 and 5 will be just fine.
Start Duren and move Beef Stew over to the 4. Bring Bey of the bench and Let Boban.. man the SF position. Or start Bey and ask Boban..to come off rhe bench.

Somebody has to take a stand and stop trying to be Golden State. You can't make it through the world trying to be somebody else. Just be yourself and do you.

This will beef up the defense and rim protection. If you move the ball around the court you will score. J.Duren will be the clean up man. Stew will continue to bring energy, more rim protection and toughness. No worries about points. That will come.

The Pistons defense need a face lift. Even at the cost of a few points in the first 15 min of the game.

[Phil-Good]

Stock I'm way down on and would sale.

1. Coach Casey. Tonight was a very poor job coaching. I didn't expect a win. I do expect better coaching from Casey. Coach did not use his bench at all. Isiah Livers is not being used correctly. Either is Diallio. Ivey played too much. Cade played too much. Boban.. played too much. This defense looks really bad. I'm not high on Casey. Pistons need to find a young defensive coach.

S.Bey. simply put. Bey would be a excellent 6th man. Bey gets lost in the starting 5. Bey hesitates and pump fakes too much for me.Pistons need to go out and find a bettet small forward. I would even consider starting Isiah Livers as he would fit better in the first 5. Bey hot and cold outings are getting old really fast!

K.Hayes. Time to wish this kid good luck and move forward. Detroit could really use a good Back up PG who is confident in his abilities.


The Pistons have work to do. I'm sure Troy is weaving together a master plan...

[Sparma]

Bogdanovich did have an off night from 3, going 1-4. His timing seemed a little off, weirdly.

He could cost us some odds in the lottery battle (we surely wouldn't have beaten Orlando without him), but I see him as a flawed but valuable contributor.

At an impressive 39.4% for his career, Bojan sits at #21 among active leaders, bunched in with a bunch of guys just ahead and behind him.

Curry's the leader. Yes, Seth's brother does well too, coming in at #4. And right behind Steph, sitting at #5 with a 42.6% is Luke Kennard.

I see we got out-rebounded last night 47-34.  You aren’t going to win a lot of games that way. I also see the Cavs big men ran wild.  

Simply put, we need help up front.  Bojan is not the answer at starting PF.  And now his shooting it falling off.  Can we please trade this guy before his shooting reverts to the mean or below?  I mean the guy will be 34 freaking years old by the end of the season.  WTF?

This reminds me of the famous quote by Branch Ricky.  Ricky was GM off the Pittsburg Pirates in 1953, and he was locked in contract negotiations with the Pirates only star, Hall of Famer, Ralph Kiner.  Kiner was threatening to sit out the season if he didn’t get more money.  Ricky famously shrugged and said, “We finished last with you, we can finish last without you."

That’s how I feel about Bojan.  We’re one of the worst teams in the league with him, or without him.  Trade Bojan!  He is a luxury we don’t need.


Oh....and fire Casey!  He’s horrible.

[Murph]

I see we got out-rebounded last night 47-34.  You aren’t going to win a lot of games that way. I also see the Cavs big men ran wild.  

Simply put, we need help up front.  Bojan is not the answer at starting PF.  And now his shooting it falling off.  Can we please trade this guy before his shooting reverts to the mean or below?  I mean the guy will be 34 freaking years old by the end of the season.  WTF?

This reminds me of the famous quote by Branch Ricky.  Ricky was GM off the Pittsburg Pirates in 1953, and he was locked in contract negotiations with the Pirates only star, Hall of Famer, Ralph Kiner.  Kiner was threatening to sit out the season if he didn’t get more money.  Ricky famously shrugged and said, “We finished last with you, we can finish last without you."

That’s how I feel about Bojan.  We’re one of the worst teams in the league with him, or without him.  Trade Bojan!  He is a luxury we don’t need.


Oh....and fire Casey! He’s horrible.

[Sparma]

Ugly loss to Cleveland, playing sans their two all-star guards. Numerous problems, a huge one being that Cleveland scored at will in the paint. And the Lakers will probably be putting in a call about Kevin Love after that revival (including a beautiful bounce pass leading to a lay up).

We're getting to the point where I think Casey's in serious jeopardy. If we double our record to 4-16, which seems likely given the schedule, he may be out of time. Thunder next time should be fun, but after that, look out. That said, another part of me thinks that they'll give him some time with a healthy roster (assuming we'll see that not too far from now). Saw a story earlier today about coaches in the hot seat that listed him #1.

Looking good at Tankathon, into the second spot. No worries about losing that first round pick to the Knicks this year. Here comes Scoot!

[Murph]

Sparma... my feeling on Duren is that yes, he has a huge amount of potential, but he’s still the youngest player in the league at 19.  I think it’s unrealistic to think he’ll play as well as Bagley or Noel without a great deal of development.

With that in mind, I would start Bagley at center when he comes back.  He played very well in the 18 games at the end of last season.  In fact, he played the best basketball of his professional career.

And I’d bring Noel off the bench as a defensive stopper, until he can be traded before the deadline, or his contract expires  I would do this to limit Noel’s minutes in an effort to keep him healthy.

I still want to see how Stewart plays as the starting PF.  I love Stewart’s energy, intensity and leadership.  Unfortunately, I think he’s just too small to start at center.  If he could marginally improve his 3 point shooting, I think he’d be great as the starting 4.

And bring Bojan off the bench at the 4 for instant offense.

Once Noel is traded or his contract expires, then Duren could back up Bagley.  And if Duren develops the way we all think he can, it won’t be long before he begins to outplay Bagley and start at center, in a year or two.

[Sparma]

Yes, that was a confusing post! That's in part because I'm confused and perplexed about what to do with the front court.

I leave filling how the depth chart for the guards for another time. I will say my major question there concerns Killian Hayes.
His current PER is 0.08, accurately reflecting his awful, awful play. What to do? I'm tempted to say he's had a million opportunities and needs to flat out earn his minutes now. Rodney McGruder's better than him, let alone Cory Joseph.
At the same time, we seem to be well on our way to another heavy loss season, which may be a good thing given the draft. So why not then keep given the 21 y.o. with some significant skills chances? I don't know.

In the frontcourt, there's a major conundrum too: Stewart's averaging 13.4 pts and 10.3 rebounds, and his PER's respectable (13.9) even though not quite league average. Sounds really good, especially for a youngster. Why mess with that?
And he seems to be well-liked. Maybe we're set at C for the next 10 years with Stewart? I don't think so (get back to me if he significantly improves his shot). In fact, I think there's only one thing, and it's important, that he does above league average: play with energy. But what about all those points and bounds? I think those are largely a reflection of getting a ton of opportunities and of being fed and fed by Cade (even though he often fails).

One additional comment before turning to summation: I'd go Casey Stengel, switching things up depending on the situation. Maybe there are games where Stewart isn't overmatched and it makes sense to start him.

A couple of corrections to your chart, one of them major. I think we do have our center for the next 10 years, and he looks ready (once healthy): Duren. Start him, at least until it turns out he'll foul out within 15 minutes, then maybe Stewart becomes the starter again. I think you win by featuring guys with NBA+ skills: Duren has those, Stewart doesn't (again, apart from his energy). I doubt Noel could handle starter minutes, at least now. He's shown an NBA+ skill in his limited minutes though: his defense is terrific. He can contribute, at least until a contender nabs him for a second rounder later in the season.

A second minor correction: I'd put Bagley second at PF. He looked fantastic as an above the rim Cade target last year. I'm skeptical about the rest of his game though, including defensive positioning, passing, and shooting. Again, I'm drawn to the + skill (as I am with Bojan).

Ok, so with the caveat that Stewart may sometimes start depending on the match up, here's my front court depth chart:

C: Duren, Noel, Bagley, Stewart
PF: Bey, Bagley, Stewart
SF: Livers (until proven he can't handle it), Bojan, Bey

I'll be curious to see Alex Burks play. When he returns, I might put Ivey on the bench, where I think he'd thrive. Maybe that's when Killian's minutes dry up until he starts producing, or we make a trade or two.

So Sparma...I’m trying to translate you post into a workable depth chart, and I’m coming up with something like this:

Cade, ?
Ivey, ?
Livers, Bojan, Bey
Bey, Steward, Bagley
Noel, Duren, Bagley, Stewart

Am I correct in my interpretation?

I have a couple of questions.  Who do you like at reserve PG and SG?  And you would not
play Bagley much at all?  

I agree that the frontcourt is too small, and that Bojan and Bey generally shouldn't start together due to defensive liabilities.

If there's a great trade out there for Bojan, go for it, otherwise I'm happy to have him.  He won't maintain his 50%+ pace from three, but he's an excellent shooter from distance for his career, 39.4%, something we dearly need.  And he does more than shoot, for instance making a nice lob pass after penetration yesterday.  I believe he'll maintain good conditioning during the added two years.  What he can't do well is play defense, even though he does try.  Coming off the bench may well be the way to go.

But then what?  Bagley matched up very well with Cade, but I don't trust him as a defensive player.  Also to the bench?
Not sure.  Spot starter?  Last year, with all those lobs he seemed more like a C than PF on offense, but I don't think he can handle C on D, nor PF for that matter.

My preference would be for Duren and Noel to man the center, with Stewart picking up minutes, also mainly from the bench.
His hands and height let Stewart down on offense, but Cade really looks for him, and he does work hard.  I continue to doubt he could be effective at PF for long minutes, but he could spend some time there.

I'm really like Livers to pick up SF, but not sure he's up to it.

In all, that leaves Cade and Ivey in place, Duren and Noel as the principal centers with Stewart and Bagley getting some minutes, Bey at PF, with Bagley picking up some minutes there as well as Stewart.  At times Bey would slide back to SF, even starting there, but Livers would be the main SF starter, with Bojan doing some situational starters.  Whew, that sounds confusing even to me.  Front court's kinda of a mess.

I would stick with Duren and Noel as the two main guys I trust at C, with Bey as a starter, generally alongside Livers.  Bojan would get plenty of minutes off the bench as long as he remains here.  In his case, the extension adds to his trade value.  I'm not giving him up unless I get high value in return.

I never wanted to trust the process of a total rebuild in the first place, but now that we’re 4 years down that road, there’s no turning back.  

With that in mind, I think it’s becoming more and more clear that we cannot start both Bey and Bojan in the same front court.  They are both too small to guard big athletic PFs. Case in point is Giannis.  The idea of either Bey or Bojan trying to guard Giannis is laughable. Add an undersized Stewart to the mix at center, and you have a defensive nightmare.  

Furthermore, Bojan is 33.5 years old.  If he were 26 or even 28, that would be one thing.  But at almost 34, he is not part of the Pistons future.  

Are we really trying to win now?  At 2-7?  To maybe snag a play-in spot?  Really?

When Bagley comes back, can we please start Bey, Stewart and Bagley up front, and bring Bojan off the bench, until he can be traded?   Bojan would light it up off the bench, and our bench needs help desperately.  Bojan would be a strong candidate for 6th Man.


Oh... and can we get a decent coach in here that isn’t a member of AARP???

[Murph]

So Sparma...I’m trying to translate you post into a workable depth chart, and I’m coming up with something like this:

Cade, ?
Ivey, ?
Livers, Bojan, Bey
Bey, Steward, Bagley
Noel, Duren, Bagley, Stewart

Am I correct in my interpretation?

I have a couple of questions.  Who do you like at reserve PG and SG?  And you would not
play Bagley much at all?  

I agree that the frontcourt is too small, and that Bojan and Bey generally shouldn't start together due to defensive liabilities.

If there's a great trade out there for Bojan, go for it, otherwise I'm happy to have him.  He won't maintain his 50%+ pace from three, but he's an excellent shooter from distance for his career, 39.4%, something we dearly need.  And he does more than shoot, for instance making a nice lob pass after penetration yesterday.  I believe he'll maintain good conditioning during the added two years.  What he can't do well is play defense, even though he does try.  Coming off the bench may well be the way to go.

But then what?  Bagley matched up very well with Cade, but I don't trust him as a defensive player.  Also to the bench?
Not sure.  Spot starter?  Last year, with all those lobs he seemed more like a C than PF on offense, but I don't think he can handle C on D, nor PF for that matter.

My preference would be for Duren and Noel to man the center, with Stewart picking up minutes, also mainly from the bench.
His hands and height let Stewart down on offense, but Cade really looks for him, and he does work hard.  I continue to doubt he could be effective at PF for long minutes, but he could spend some time there.

I'm really like Livers to pick up SF, but not sure he's up to it.

In all, that leaves Cade and Ivey in place, Duren and Noel as the principal centers with Stewart and Bagley getting some minutes, Bey at PF, with Bagley picking up some minutes there as well as Stewart.  At times Bey would slide back to SF, even starting there, but Livers would be the main SF starter, with Bojan doing some situational starters.  Whew, that sounds confusing even to me.  Front court's kinda of a mess.

I would stick with Duren and Noel as the two main guys I trust at C, with Bey as a starter, generally alongside Livers.  Bojan would get plenty of minutes off the bench as long as he remains here.  In his case, the extension adds to his trade value.  I'm not giving him up unless I get high value in return.

I never wanted to trust the process of a total rebuild in the first place, but now that we’re 4 years down that road, there’s no turning back.  

With that in mind, I think it’s becoming more and more clear that we cannot start both Bey and Bojan in the same front court.  They are both too small to guard big athletic PFs. Case in point is Giannis.  The idea of either Bey or Bojan trying to guard Giannis is laughable. Add an undersized Stewart to the mix at center, and you have a defensive nightmare.  

Furthermore, Bojan is 33.5 years old.  If he were 26 or even 28, that would be one thing.  But at almost 34, he is not part of the Pistons future.  

Are we really trying to win now?  At 2-7?  To maybe snag a play-in spot?  Really?

When Bagley comes back, can we please start Bey, Stewart and Bagley up front, and bring Bojan off the bench, until he can be traded?   Bojan would light it up off the bench, and our bench needs help desperately.  Bojan would be a strong candidate for 6th Man.


Oh... and can we get a decent coach in here that isn’t a member of AARP???

[Sparma]

I agree that the frontcourt is too small, and that Bojan and Bey generally shouldn't start together due to defensive liabilities.

If there's a great trade out there for Bojan, go for it, otherwise I'm happy to have him. He won't maintain his 50%+ pace from three, but he's an excellent shooter from distance for his career, 39.4%, something we dearly need. And he does more than shoot, for instance making a nice lob pass after penetration yesterday. I believe he'll maintain good conditioning during the added two years. What he can't do well is play defense, even though he does try. Coming off the bench may well be the way to go.

But then what? Bagley matched up very well with Cade, but I don't trust him as a defensive player. Also to the bench?
Not sure. Spot starter? Last year, with all those lobs he seemed more like a C than PF on offense, but I don't think he can handle C on D, nor PF for that matter.

My preference would be for Duren and Noel to man the center, with Stewart picking up minutes, also mainly from the bench.
His hands and height let Stewart down on offense, but Cade really looks for him, and he does work hard. I continue to doubt he could be effective at PF for long minutes, but he could spend some time there.

I'm really like Livers to pick up SF, but not sure he's up to it.

In all, that leaves Cade and Ivey in place, Duren and Noel as the principal centers with Stewart and Bagley getting some minutes, Bey at PF, with Bagley picking up some minutes there as well as Stewart. At times Bey would slide back to SF, even starting there, but Livers would be the main SF starter, with Bojan doing some situational starters. Whew, that sounds confusing even to me. Front court's kinda of a mess.

I would stick with Duren and Noel as the two main guys I trust at C, with Bey as a starter, generally alongside Livers. Bojan would get plenty of minutes off the bench as long as he remains here. In his case, the extension adds to his trade value. I'm not giving him up unless I get high value in return.

I never wanted to trust the process of a total rebuild in the first place, but now that we’re 4 years down that road, there’s no turning back.  

With that in mind, I think it’s becoming more and more clear that we cannot start both Bey and Bojan in the same front court.  They are both too small to guard big athletic PFs. Case in point is Giannis.  The idea of either Bey or Bojan trying to guard Giannis is laughable. Add an undersized Stewart to the mix at center, and you have a defensive nightmare.  

Furthermore, Bojan is 33.5 years old.  If he were 26 or even 28, that would be one thing.  But at almost 34, he is not part of the Pistons future.  

Are we really trying to win now?  At 2-7?  To maybe snag a play-in spot?  Really?

When Bagley comes back, can we please start Bey, Stewart and Bagley up front, and bring Bojan off the bench, until he can be traded?   Bojan would light it up off the bench, and our bench needs help desperately.  Bojan would be a strong candidate for 6th Man.


Oh... and can we get a decent coach in here that isn’t a member of AARP???

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