Re: FORUM

[cool breeze]

After reading your post, I have to say you make the most compelling case for evaluating Drummond that I've seen.

I have been guilty of, how do I say this, remembering the old days a bit to fondly so to speak.

We're judging Drummond in two harsh ways.

1. By standards that are a bit high, and
2. I don't know about others, but I'm judging him based somewhat on team performance.

The 2nd one requires a bit more info. If Drummond was putting up the exact same numbers on the Warriors, there would be no way to stop the positive press coverage. He would be hailed as damn near a super star.

For example, the year he made the all star game, he was highlighted by Reggie in the PnR so much he looked like a star. He still couldn't hit FT's and never assisted, more like a black hole... BUT we were winning!

We fail to remember one central fact about the Bad Boys and the 2004 team because they had 3 things in common.
1. Both squads were populated with high IQ players
2. Both squads had WAY above average coaching, and
3. Both squads just WON baby

Drummond has none of that!

@Ballin: Shaq was a goof and a nice guy at first, but he learned from Phil Jackson how to take what's his, it's coaching. Drummond, IMO, will wake up one season and just decide to muscle his way to the hole and destroy opponents, it's part of the maturation process, but coaching can bring it out faster.

I like what Sparma says here too. "Team performance" is what the owner needs to look at relating to the player or players who make the most money and get the most attention. Somebody from within the team must get their team on track playing the right way or the winning way. In many games our team appears to be made up with a bunch of strangers who have no common goal. That is why Zeke and others who have been successful say our Pistons have no identity. AD has not given the Pistons any identity other than they are known as a soft team that nobody fears playing against even when the Pistons play at home before their own fans. Labron James did not pick AD to be on his team this year. Curry and James were chosen as team captains. James passed on AD and every other Piston on the roster. Maybe this snub will hit home with AD and he will become that guy who can lead but usually that guy is a point guard not a big man. We need an alpha dog point guard but our head coach did not set a goal to find that man. He is out there somewhere but SVG has not looked hard enough or figured out how to get that guy. SVG is content to create a ball dominate point guard offense without that alpha dog leader that type of offense requires. This lack of identity is not all on AD. Reggie Jackson and Ish Smith are not first tier type championship caliber starting point guards. SVG is peddling snake oil hoping nobody will notice.

[BallinD]

We had a 7 game losing streak with Weggie this season...Hello! The narrative that the nosedive is due to Weggie being out is a fat LIE!  Now Ish is closing in on his own 7-game streak of infamy, though since SVG took him out of the starting lineup, it's not all his.  Stupid Van Gundy et al!

Zach Lowe: Detroit's aimless offense
Detroit is 8-18 since Dec. 1, and ranks dead last in points per possession over that stretch. Reggie Jackson's latest injury exacerbated a collapse that was already underway.

Jackson might only be something like the 20th-best starting point guard in the NBA, but even a player at that level is valuable to a team without anyone else who can break people down off the bounce. Tobias Harris comes closest, and he and Drummond have developed a nice two-man game. But Harris isn't a playmaker for others.

Ish Smith is overmatched as a starting point guard. Defenders duck underneath picks against him, walling off the paint and daring him to shoot jumpers. He can scoot to the rim one-on-one as his guy backpedals, but that doesn't unlock open looks for anyone else. When Smith shifts off the ball, Detroit is almost playing 4-on-5.

Avery Bradley prefers to pull up for long jumpers, and he's barely making any of late. Most Detroit possessions involve a bunch of frisky running around that doesn't amount to much:

Detroit got traction early in the season from all that cutting and screening. It was a new look for them. But it worked because it supplemented the Jackson-Drummond pick-and-roll, still Detroit's most reliable way of slicing into the paint. Without that fail-safe -- without any singular off-the-dribble threat -- they go nowhere. Defenses switch screens on and off the ball, confident the Pistons won't exploit mismatches. With few choices, they might want to try posting up Harris more after switches leave smaller guys on him.

Detroit is now 22-24. If it dips further over the next 10 days, we might get another seller at the deadline.  Should be!

[cool breeze]

The way I see it in this last game the Pistons gave away if SVG had used Moreland instead of Boban in the 3rd quarter and for that matter in the first half as well, the Pistons would have won the game. Why Boban in that matchup against faster more athletic bigs? Why not Moreland? SVG is lazy. His method is to experiment using Boban for a few games in a row and decide how that compares with the contributions Moreland brings to the team. This is lazy inept thinking by the head coach. Any coach with half a brain needs to look at the matchups. That was not a good matchup for Boban. But even worse, SVG never seemed to notice that after inserting Boban Utah went on a big run and most of it was due to Boban mistakes or the opposing team taking advantage of Boban. In certain situations, Boban is a big asset but not against Utah. They were scoring in the paint at will and Boban was turning the ball over. SVG watched and acted like he didn't notice. Did Tom Gores see that going on? Did he like it?

As you all know I really like Moreland. He has been refreshing for me to watch. I like him because he gives everything he has and is fundamentally sound on defense. He helps out his teammates a lot on defense. What I would like to see is this head coach having more faith in him. I see Moreland as a guy who will work his butt off in the summer lifting weights and getting in even better shape. He can work on more offensive moves as well but his gift is his defensive ability. I would like to see him gain 20 pounds with no fat. He could be groomed to play the game like Ben Wallace for a small price tag. He has been very effective with the 2nd unit for a lot of games. But suddenly he is now exiled like Buycks. Buycks would have done a better job than Smith in that overtime period. Galloway would have also been a better choice based on the way Smith was disrupting the Piston offense. Yet it was set in stone that Smith was going to play no matter what. I really get upset with coaches who figure out combinations within their rotation the night before a game and then regardless of the circumstances do not deviate from their stupid plan. The Pistons should have won that game. The coach should take full responsibility for that loss. The owner should agree that the loss is on SVG's shoulders.

The starting point guard should be Kennard. He should finish out the season win or lose. He has the best basketball IQ and is capable of dribbling the ball up the court as well as anyone. This idea that the Pistons need a ball dominate point guard who cannot defend and fly has to stop. We need a smart point guard. Luke will make mistakes learning how to play point in the NBA. But who gives a crap? I want to see him play that position and the pistons have nothing to lose. Only Stan Van Gundy stands in the way.

The other issue is failure of the coach to use Henry Ellenson. At times Harris plays horribly on defense. He is guilty of horrible shot selection and failure to give up the basketball to teammates with better opportunities especially early in the shot clock. He and Smith are responsible for opponents getting too many easy transition basket. Harris needs to drive and dish instead of forcing shots when he has two defenders guarding him. These are some of the issues that the head coach has avoided dealing with. SVG has failed as a head coach. He failed to address basic chemistry issues last season and in fact made things worse while addressing the players only meeting that was held for purposes trying to make the team better. SVG protects his favorites and forgets players who disappoint him for the smallest of reasons. SVG does not look healthy. Is he up to the job of being the head coach of the Pistons? Are his assistants up to the job of developing young players the right way? Where is the standard that the owner should set for the coaching staff? Wait until the end of the season and if this doesn't change than it is time to start over with a new coaching staff. This time the owner needs to get it right.

[Oracle]

After reading your post, I have to say you make the most compelling case for evaluating Drummond that I've seen.

I have been guilty of, how do I say this, remembering the old days a bit to fondly so to speak.

We're judging Drummond in two harsh ways.

1. By standards that are a bit high, and
2. I don't know about others, but I'm judging him based somewhat on team performance.

The 2nd one requires a bit more info. If Drummond was putting up the exact same numbers on the Warriors, there would be no way to stop the positive press coverage. He would be hailed as damn near a super star.

For example, the year he made the all star game, he was highlighted by Reggie in the PnR so much he looked like a star. He still couldn't hit FT's and never assisted, more like a black hole... BUT we were winning!

We fail to remember one central fact about the Bad Boys and the 2004 team because they had 3 things in common.
1. Both squads were populated with high IQ players
2. Both squads had WAY above average coaching, and
3. Both squads just WON baby

Drummond has none of that!

@Ballin: Shaq was a goof and a nice guy at first, but he learned from Phil Jackson how to take what's his, it's coaching. Drummond, IMO, will wake up one season and just decide to muscle his way to the hole and destroy opponents, it's part of the maturation process, but coaching can bring it out faster.

[BallinD]

Drummond is just not there yet, and yes he does have the potential, but the key to unlocking it is between his ears and between his shoulders, not between his neck and feet. He is still something of a head case and still has an intermittent motor. You never know what you will get, with him, moreso than Ben, Laimbeer and Rodman

Dre, like Rodman and Ben has no post game, but I will say his post game is better than Rodman's or Big Bens, but not by much at all. I would say maybe he is tied with Laimbeer in the post, but Laim might have been one of the first stretch 5s and he played hard, though with less talent than Andre, he madeup for it with consistent heart and smarts. Heart and Smarts is what Dre is missing.

Dre is rarely a gamer who will get you a win. He is rarely regularly dominating the big boys Embiid, Kanter, Gortat, Whiteside, Lopez, all take him to school, and he gets his shot blocked by the little guys too much. He is maturing, but not mature yet (as seen by his Twitter Comments) and yes his defense out on the floor is getting better by leaps and bounds, his rim protection is intermittent to poor, though the game vs Utah, against big boy Gobert, was a revelation, but one game.

I think all of this blather about him being snubbed is due to his future potential unfolding, not what he is now.

Laimbeer was a mental giant, high bball IQ player who was focused and you knew what you would get from him night in and night out, helping the team win and being an enforcer in an era when enforcement was required. Could Drum do that? NO! Too much of a goof and a nice guy, but no enforcer, no one who is gonna muscle somebody and dunk on them to get that last shot down, too off and on. We're talking about a guy who I think was at the bottom of the league in points out of post ups, and this year he had to abandon that all the way. If I was just a Pistons casual observer, I would never think Andre should be an All Star.

Rodman was relentless and a much better motor and a better athelete, a better rebounder in an era of great, great rebounders: Karl and Moses Malone, Barkley, Olaujuwon, Mutombo, Oakley, Ewing, Silas. Those were men and he used his great motor to get the boards. Same With Big Ben in the Shaq era, playing against men, his motor led him to literally dominate games, the way Dre does sometimes with his offensive rebounding, (Sometimes), and yet his defense was always suffocating. He might have been the closest thing to Bill Russel in the modern era.

Dre has a ways to go, but if he stays mad, that could be his secret.

[Sparma]

As I see it, Drummond’s facing a double whammy:
a) His numbers should be better.
In two ways, I agree: he should be able to average more blocks, and he could score more if he developed a decent 8 foot jumper.

But should Drummond average a 20/20 as has been said a number of times? That’s an unreasonable expectation. If he does it, great (The Wash. Post ran a story about the possibility). It’s been almost 50 years since it’s been done, with Wilt, Jerry Lucas, and Bob Pettit the only three to have done it.

If superhuman standards are set for Drummond, why not hold superhuman standards for Laim and Wallace? Surely, they never met such standards.

b) He’s not as good as his number suggest.
I’m inclined to think so myself, but still think he needs to get due credit for what he’s done.

Don speaks of “MVP”. Go for it, but that’s not what I weighing, but rather who the best Piston C was.
Laimbeer the smartest ever? Well, he was a smart player, but I’ll venture a bit of sacrilege: he could/ should have been smarter in being called for a foul against Kareem that cost us a ship. Bad call, yes, absolutely. But shouldn’t he have been thinking: whatever I do, I can’t foul Kareem, or even look like I’m fouling him. Given my rep, I can’t give the ref any excuses….
Ben never got outplayed? Shaq laid him to waste in the finals. Ben didn’t stop him at all, but subs helped out, and Kobe refused to feed him consistently as he was destroying Wallace.

Drummond’s opponents? The usual suspects. Let me round back to this one. Yes, Howard and Embiid outplayed him. Yes, there’s a lower % of dominant centers than in the olden days.

NBA watered down? Depends on what’s meant. Yes, there are many more teams than in the 60s. At the same time, there’s more equal access to the NBA than In the olden days, and certainly far more international talent. Combine that with there just being more people and I wonder how watered down the talent is, certainly in comparison with Laim and Ben’s day.
Can we agree that the top fifty players in the NBA today are far more athletic and skilled than in any earlier time, certainly the 80s. Ish Smith’s a crummy shooter, right? His career shooting stats sit a little behind Isiah’s, our all time best player. Putting an aging Howard on the 80s Bulls instead of an aging Cartright, even Monroe instead of Luc Longley, and they’re more formidable. Put Boban in the 60s and even beyond, and he’s a superstar; no way could the all-time greatest defender, Bill Russell, handle him. Wilt into the present and he’s Drummond, if he’s lucky.

NBA watered down? In several respects, it’s better than ever. But it’s different, making it harder for Centers, certainly of the lumbering Monroe and Boban type to dominate. I wonder when a top center first ran the court the way Drummond did? Wilt was subbed out in a 7th Final game for the (stated) reason he had trouble guarding away from the basket. Could he really handle the guys that Drummond needs to deal with routinely, who can play inside and shoot? It’s a different game, required different skills, higher skills. Drummond could excel going back; how well would Laimbeer and Wallace do moving forward?

[Oracle]

Don you are correct first Bill then Ben second.  Bill was the smartest center on both ends of the floor he's the last center that really had plays called for him on offense because he was the original stretch big ben before they were call stretch players.  

I can't recall either Ben or Bill simply being totally out played, not showing up in the moment or taking plays off. When can say AD does all those things far too regularly if you ask me.

It's close, but Laimbeer does win out. Whatever you needed a center to be Laims gave it to you.

1. Battle in the paint, he's your man! 
2. Shoot it from deep, no problem! 
3. Get into the other teams head... he was the MASTER!

What he did to Kevin Duckworth was a thing of beauty. I kept thinking that this can't work, nobody could be that stupid to not know what Laims is doing, but it worked the whole series. I swear Duckworth likely had to seek professional help to get Laims out of his head 

[WTF]

Don you are correct first Bill then Ben second.  Bill was the smartest center on both ends of the floor he's the last center that really had plays called for him on offense because he was the original stretch big ben before they were call stretch players.  

I can't recall either Ben or Bill simply being totally out played, not showing up in the moment or taking plays off. When can say AD does all those things far too regularly if you ask me.

[WTF]

I admit AD is a talented player and he has the potential to be the greatest center this team has had but that is attached to so many ifs this and if that. The proof again is always in the pudding we can say all day long that Bill and Ben benefitted playing with this group or that group. There are a ton of variables that can be used to argue either case.  

I see the numbers just like everyone else so I can't argue against numbers, but we all know that the numbers don't tell the whole story so I'll ask this little question.  How many Hofer's do Andre face on a nightly basis or elite centers?  How many has Big Ben faced?  Part of the reason I won't give the nod to AD is because the league is watered down and he doesn't face the same level of competition both Ben and Bill did.  IMO I think that plays into why AD stats are better.  

I can also argue and say that both Ben and Bill statistically could have had better numbers if they didn't play along side Rodman and Sheed.  I can argue that upon the arrival of those 2 that both Ben and Bill had better stats. So while it can be argued that Ben and Bill benefitted from who they played with it also so hurt them statistically.   But it's the flip for AD so if he was paired with frontcourt players like Rodman and Sheed would he be as good of a rebounder as he is now. 

The fact that AD doesn't go up against elite centers and future Hofer's only adds to my frustration with him as to why he's not a 20/20 guy.  It shouldn't be a hard accomplishment.   I won't just single AD out on this because there's 2 or 3 others in the league I say that about as well.  You can argue that AD is under achieving but you can say that about Ben or Bill so you just simply can say that AD belongs in the same discussion as our other great centers.

Let's tally up another numbers beyond stats and count the number of individual accomplishments ASG, DPOY, All Team, and Rebounding Titles,  and ask if AD compare with those guys.  AD has 1 ASG, hasn't seen a 1st All and he won't get DPOY this year though he may get a rebounding title.  These are things you accomplish on individual merits and has nothing to do with who you played with. 

As watered down this league has become IMO AD should have already earned at 3 ASG, 3 rebound titles, lead the league in blocks and already a consistent 20/20 guy but he's not.

[cool breeze]

The amazing thing about basketball as a watcher instead of a player is how each and every one of us come away with something different. As a player you can talk to your teammates and usually most everyone agrees on what you screwed up and what worked well. As a watcher on the outside of the game, it is easy to concentrate on a few aspects relating to certain players on either team or the coaching strategy employed in each game. The article opposite gives both perspectives. Both are somewhat compelling. SVG has made some smart moves as a GM. I disagree that the Pistons are playing good defense. They do not play good defense a lot of the time in crunch time. The offense is not fun to watch in any respect most of the time when the point guards dominate. SVG to me is a failure as a head coach so far but this team is still very young. I am no expert relating to what it takes to be a good NBA coach because the NBA game is not a game where the coach holds the same amount of power and control of a team as they can do with a high school or college team. A lot of players with guaranteed contracts do not listen to coaches. To me maybe the GM job is the most important job because you need to be able to understand who the players are before you allow them to come onto your team. Are they team orientated or team first type players who will bend a little and change the way they play to fit what is best for the team. Those NBA players are rare. The Pistons may have a few like that. But they do not have a top tier point guard on a team designed for a top tier point guard. Reggie jackson and Ish Smith will never be All Star caliber players. If that is the case then the head coach needs to change his strategy and find a good two way type point guard who is not so ball dominate to allow the rest of the team to develop their offensive games by running a more disciplined motion style offense. Mix that will an outstanding defensive minded team and that team will win a lot of NBA games.

The head coach and his coaching staff do not appear to be a good mix. It is up to the assistant coaches to get young players and vet players up to speed on what is expected of them. the assistant coaches need to show that they can help make players better fit the system the head coach has decided on using. Something is wrong with that aspect within the coaching staff. Hardaway was a ball dominate player. He is coaching point guards and 2 guards in this point guard dominate style SVG seems to like. I don't think this team has the right point guards to pull that off. Both point guards are very weak defenders. Neither are players who can think 2 or 3 plays ahead like Zeke. How would Zeke run this Piston offense if he were in his prime? First off Zeke always says that a point guard needs to bring out the best in his teammates on offense. Therefore, the point guard has to spend time with each player and know where they like to receive the ball and what their basic strengths are as offensive players. Zeke knew everything anyone could know about his teammates. He worked at it as soon as he put his practice jersey on after he was drafted. He was a leader from day one. So in my opinion, SVG is using the wrong strategy as a GM. He didn't go out and secure a point guard who can fill the needs of the offense SVG wants to run. SVG secured the services of 2nd and 3rd tier NBA point guards. Both Jackson and Smith are backup type point guards to be used for short segments of each game. They both lack consistency that their teammates crave. I wonder if the Pistons had a point guard who is a low turnover play making type point guard like Collison who I know is getting a bit too old. He is not an All Star type player but is a good team player who is smart. Dinwiddie is another younger version team first play making point guard who does not rush things. The Pistons made 20 turnovers in this last game. That is why they lost the game. Otherwise the Pistons would have won. They are rushing their passes after securing the defensive rebounds and then also when not turning over the ball because they are trying to play at a high pace they then rush shot attempts. Harris is especially guilty of that defect. great if he makes those contested early shots but not so good when the team gets beat 20 times a game in transition. And in the article about coaching change in today's articles on the right side within the argument to fire SVG is identification of the impact of Ish Smith in this last game. He causes FUBAR to the offense. That is a military term that I hope you all know. That is what I say during the games. "FUBAR"! My advise for what it is worth is for the Pistons to make a trade for new point guards or get two in next year's draft. Replace both of our point guards as soon as possible and then SVG if he is still here needs to create a new offensive strategy that will bring out the best for all of the players who return next season.

[Oracle]

But on a more general note:  Never trade with Boston.  No player that you can acquire from Boston is ever going to play as well for you as they did for Brad Stevens.  Take the Midget as an example.  The Midget never performed very well away from Brad Stevens.  He was always a glorified circus act, another Mugsy Bogues.  - So effing true! He was always getting moved because he was a gimmick, then Stevens transformed him!

Then all of a sudden the circus act goes to Boston and he becomes an All Star, a leading scorer, and almost takes his team to the NBA Finals.  Then he gets traded away from Stevens and...poof...he becomes Mugsy Bogues again (a very angry Mugsy Bogues). 

Our own Avery Bradley had gone through a similar transformation.  In Boston, Bradley was an outstanding shooter, a defensive stopper, a rebounding fiend and part of a starting backcourt that almost went to the NBA Finals.  But take Bradley away from Stevens and...poof...he becomes Jody Meeks.    - LOL, Jodie "F**king" Meeks as Seb used to call him!!!

Don is right, this is a great post, I just wish we had a coach as good as Stevens, I didn't see him coming!

BTW, why in the world over at Cleveland is it always Love getting the blame when anything goes wrong? Why is it always the White Guy 

But this is territory that Thomas should never venture into, he just hasn't been with the team long enough and he's sporting absolutely no hardware that looks like a ring, so he needs to STFU!

I was skeptical about Bradley from the beginning. A lot of people here thought I was that way because I liked KCP, but I never understood where the connection was. Bradley wasn't traded for KCP, he didn't steal KCP's spot or anything, but it was their projected hate of KCP that didn't allow them to accept facts about Bradley. Every fact presented had to be a KCP inspired lie, which made logical debate impossible.

The forum had the "KCP killed my Pappy" disease! You can't communicate with someone that believes you killed their Pappy 

[cool breeze]

So Isaiah Thomas is leading a locker room jihad against Kevin Love???  The same Isaiah Thomas who has been healthy in Cleveland for exactly 10 games...during which time the team has gone 3-7?

So the problem is obviously future Hall-of-Famer Kevin Love...who has been a starter in Cleveland for 4 years, during which time they won an NBA Championship?

You can't make this stuff up...



But on a more general note:  Never trade with Boston.  No player that you can acquire from Boston is ever going to play as well for you as they did for Brad Stevens.  Take the Midget as an example.  The Midget never performed very well away from Brad Stevens.  He was always a glorified circus act, another Mugsy Bogues.  

Then all of a sudden the circus act goes to Boston and he becomes an All Star, a leading scorer, and almost takes his team to the NBA Finals.  Then he gets traded away from Stevens and...poof...he becomes Mugsy Bogues again (a very angry Mugsy Bogues).

Our own Avery Bradley had gone through a similar transformation.  In Boston, Bradley was an outstanding shooter, a defensive stopper, a rebounding fiend and part of a starting backcourt that almost went to the NBA Finals.  But take Bradley away from Stevens and...poof...he becomes Jody Meeks.  

Murph this was a brilliant post. Has to be best post of the week for sure. Your comments about Stevens were great. I often wonder what would happen if Stevens were coaching the Pistons. How many current players would still be on the team? For those who were still on the roster, which combinations would he use. What offense would be played by the Pistons? How would players like Johnson or Ellenson be playing if Stevens had coached them for two years? He also has a great coaching staff at Boston. For Detroit there is a mixture of malfunction by certain players who are not following the game plan or have concentration issues and well as the strategy and player combinations and failure of making faster adjustments by the coaching staff. Stevens would recognize the issues quickly and make the necessary changes. He would be playing all of his roster players at some point during each month too. The thing that players who have played for Stevens either at Butler or Boston always say is that they feel that he has their backs and can communicate exceptionally well and knows that he is talking about. Stevens basketball coaching recognition skill set is incredible and exceptional.

I thought that Cleveland might implode after losing Irving. What will Labron pull off before the trade deadline? The NBA front office wants another Golden State - Cleveland finals matchup. What will be done to give Labron the players he now craves? The NBA is a big soap opera offering more entertainment than basketball. I sure would like to have Love on our Piston team. Nobody Labron wants maybe with the exception of AD who would elevate his game big time playing with Labron. My wish is that Cleveland doesn't make the finals this year.

[cool breeze]

Stats don't tell the whole story, Wise, but they do tell part of the story.  I come away from my statistical investigation strengthened by my conviction that AD should be in the conversation as to who our 2nd greatest center ever is.  He beats out Laim and B. Wallace statistically thus far, but clearly there our a lot of other considerations, one being how to weigh peak excellence (which AD may just now be entering, his outstanding PER numbers thus far notwithstanding) against performance during an entire career (of course an unknown in AD's case).  Winning, being a leader, performance in the playoffs all should be factored in.

Agreed, Murph, that who you play with makes a ton of difference.  I think Sheed would be the perfect complement to Dre.

One thing I noticed is that Lanier peaked in his 5th year, although he had a bunch of strong seasons after that.  I wonder if that's when he had knee surgery.

While Lanier was still really good once traded to Milwaukee, Laimbeer and B.Wallace easily had their best years with the Pistons.  Remember when players got better when they got here, and worse when they left (eg Ben W, Rip).  In the past decade, it seems like we've had a pretty steady stream of guys getting worse when they get here.

How you perform in big games against the best competition is to me the most important ingredient to determine MVP relating to centers. In the last matchup involving Howard who is past his prime, AD was taken to school and played a horrible game. That was not long ago. In this last game against Utah AD did not play against a MVP type big man. Not to take anything away from the outstanding game he had, but this was a regular season middle of the winter away game for those Utah big men.

Which Piston center who ever wore a uniform played the smartest, gave his team what the team needed most either defense or offensively at a particular time throughout a season and in the playoffs. I would say Bill Laimbeer has to be the best big man in Piston history if that is the criteria. Then Ben Wallace comes in 2nd for sure. It was Ben Wallace's arrival that ended the soft Teal culture that had flourished in that dark period of Piston history. Then when Rasheed arrived the Wallace brothers brought honor and respect back for Detroit Piston basketball. The culture changed in a big way with the arrival of Greg Monroe who was AD's teacher for awhile. Maybe if Moose had been traded the year AD arrived and Smith had played like he did at Atlanta at the power forward position, AD might be a lot further along relating to giving his team what it most needed, strong interior defense with fierce shot blocking and complete control of the defensive boards. The current Piston team is very soft and AD is our starting center. He is extremely inconsistent at this time in his career. The stats he gets for the most part mean nothing because his team still has a soft reputation. But AD seems to be a much better player this season so far. The season isn't over yet. But to attempt to compare two of our great successful centers relating to Laimbeer and Wallace is pretty silly. AD is not yet in their league. Both Laimbeer and Wallace played in the biggest games possible during the tough playoff grind and they make it to the finals and excelled in the finals as centers. The smartest center of all time has to be Bill Laimbeer. He made huge plays at critical times in games when all the chips were on the line. He never failed to box out. His knowledge of the game and ability to execute the fundamental made up for his lack of quickness. He hit huge shots from the outside when the team was struggling. He blocked shots at big moments. Players hated playing against him not because he played dirty but because his ability to think two plays ahead and anticipate while using his ability to execute the fundamentals. AD still does not have the fundamentals down. His lack of quick recognition skills relating to anticipating and then screening out opponents crashing the boards is still very puzzling for me. AD was left off the All Star team for a good reason. He is not good enough just yet. He needs to put in more work and be a fierce competitor each and every game to get the league's respect.

I attended the Arizona-colorado game last night. The arena was rocking. This is to me the best basketball in the land today - college basketball. The students carrying on with the adults screaming with them. Meanwhile, I was watching the number one pick in this next draft, DeAndre Ayton being triple teamed at times while Colorado mixed up their defense using a 2-3 zone while able to limit spacing for Ayton. He ended up making something like 12 free throws in a row. Some of the comments relating to Ayton that has been mentioned is something that applies to this conversation about NBA centers and their worth to their teams. Ayton looks like he could be 35 years old but is only 19. His body at 7 foot 1 inch is very solid yet he is athletic. He is being compared to Hakeem Olajuwon. As so many college teams are forced to play a zone where 3 players converge on Ayton in the paint it is difficult to see his athletic ability at times. Opposing teams take away his space in the paint so he can't show off his amazing moves. He is light on his feet, has an elite touch with the basketball, is a smooth "fluid" athlete, has quick recognition skills with the ability to quickly pass out of a double team. This is what I didn't know about Ayton. He did not play basketball at all as a kid in the Bahamas. He played your daughters' sport Sparma -SOCCER and the drums. He has a calm disposition and is even keeled. I think big men who have played SOCCER as a kid gives them a huge advantage once they are fully grown and play either football or basketball but especially basketball. The running and cutting and strategy involved where you need to be able to think while being in oxygen debt gives former soccer players who morph in to basketball the special rhythm that you do not see with players like Andre Drummond. AD is very athletic but has not yet tested his ultimate limits of endurance either mentally or physically. AD has the ability to be great but it is very difficult to become a great on the ski slopes if you didn't start out going full blast down the mountains at an early age. AD was so unprepared to play professional basketball it is silly. He has come a long way but will never be Hakeem Olajuwon. Ayton has a long way to go as well but will come into the league better prepared for the mental battles all NBA and college players face.

My evaluation of AD's place on the all time Piston center list is that he is behind, Laimbeer, Wallace in the modern era and is about tied with Moose. I can't say he is any better than Monroe at this stage in his career. Monroe was a better offensive player. AD has more potential to play better defense but is not much better than Monroe. And Monroe did hold his own better when he played against the best NBA canters. AD has yet to break though and has never out played an average NBA center on Washington's team, Gortat. He always makes AD look like a minor leaguer in every matchup they have ever had. Ben Wallace and Bill Laimbeer would have had Gortat for lunch in any matchup at any time. To me is it a slap in the face to compare AD with Laimbeer or Wallace. They are both proven champions who helped their teams in the way they team actually needed them. They were not looking to make the All Star game or compile a lot of stats. They were not listening to their agent tell them what is important. The player agents are always talking to their clients telling them to be selfish and get those stats. They could care less about if their client's team is winning or losing. Wallace and Laimbeer are two real heroes that should be worshiped by all Piston fans. Bow down and thank them for their service. SVG would look like a fantastic coach if he had either of them in their prime now.

[Sparma]

Stats don't tell the whole story, Wise, but they do tell part of the story.  I come away from my statistical investigation strengthened by my conviction that AD should be in the conversation as to who our 2nd greatest center ever is. He beats out Laim and B. Wallace statistically thus far, but clearly there our a lot of other considerations, one being how to weigh peak excellence (which AD may just now be entering, his outstanding PER numbers thus far notwithstanding) against performance during an entire career (of course an unknown in AD's case). Winning, being a leader, performance in the playoffs all should be factored in.

Agreed, Murph, that who you play with makes a ton of difference.  I think Sheed would be the perfect complement to Dre.

One thing I noticed is that Lanier peaked in his 5th year, although he had a bunch of strong seasons after that.  I wonder if that's when he had knee surgery.

While Lanier was still really good once traded to Milwaukee, Laimbeer and B.Wallace easily had their best years with the Pistons.  Remember when players got better when they got here, and worse when they left (eg Ben W, Rip).  In the past decade, it seems like we've had a pretty steady stream of guys getting worse when they get here.

[Murph]

So Isaiah Thomas is leading a locker room jihad against Kevin Love???  The same Isaiah Thomas who has been healthy in Cleveland for exactly 10 games...during which time the team has gone 3-7?

So the problem is obviously future Hall-of-Famer Kevin Love...who has been a starter in Cleveland for 4 years, during which time they won an NBA Championship?

You can't make this stuff up...



But on a more general note:  Never trade with Boston.  No player that you can acquire from Boston is ever going to play as well for you as they did for Brad Stevens.  Take the Midget as an example.  The Midget never performed very well away from Brad Stevens.  He was always a glorified circus act, another Mugsy Bogues.  

Then all of a sudden the circus act goes to Boston and he becomes an All Star, a leading scorer, and almost takes his team to the NBA Finals.  Then he gets traded away from Stevens and...poof...he becomes Mugsy Bogues again (a very angry Mugsy Bogues).

Our own Avery Bradley had gone through a similar transformation.  In Boston, Bradley was an outstanding shooter, a defensive stopper, a rebounding fiend and part of a starting backcourt that almost went to the NBA Finals.  But take Bradley away from Stevens and...poof...he becomes Jody Meeks.  

[Murph]

When comparing centers, it's useful to take into account who they played with.  Lanier played with HOFer Bing.  Laimbeer played with HOFers Thomas, Dumars and Rodman.  Wallace played with Billups, Hamilton who would have been HOFers, if Joe Dumars hadn't dumped Billups for no apparent reason.

In other words, Laimbeer and Wallace were complimentary players (4th or 5th options), and Lanier, while he was the best player on the team, had a lot of help from Bing.

OTOH, Drummond has to play with Ish Smith and Avery Bradley....not exactly Zeke and Joe.  

[WTF]

@Sparma I'm not a big fan of those statistical numbers they just don't tell a the story at the end of the day the proof is pudding at the end of the day.  I mean what is 5 really other than being greater than 4 and less than 6.  

@Oracle Cousin had a triple double 44 point, 24 rebound, 10 assist with 4 steals  against the Bulls not a big deal I suppose IJS. BTW Cousin team won 

Trade Okay while I think this season is a wrap why not look forward to next season and go after Leonard and Love via trade before the deadline.  Both are unhappy with there current situation and they might actually look great next to AD.  Just one of many thoughts.

Thomas is full of himself if the stories coming from that Cavs player meeting is true and I'm disappointed Lebron let this play out the way it's being reported in the media.   This is the reason why I don't give out praise so easily to some players,  Thomas who has won nothing been out half a season is leading the charge against Love in a meeting, moaning to the press that the Cavs don't practice enough.  I'm sure it's a tons more to this event but by no means should Thomas be leading anything other than in assist and we know that's not going to happen.

Seems it getting time for Pop to follow the same path of Sloan and retire at least the coaching part of it.  This new generation of players are going to drive you insane.  You, Jackson and Riley have nothing to prove as coaches and today's players don't have the same dedication and commitment of all those great players you all won Championships with.  Social Media have all these new cats fooled, they think their **** don't stink and that they've arrived.  BTW another reason why I'm hard on Andre.

Brady, I would like to see him get Super Bowl ring number 6.  I think if he does he'll ride off into the sunset maybe turn to acting or politics

[Sparma]

I doubt that there’s a decisive, conclusive, way to compare NBA stars from different generations. Comparison is especially difficult when one player is active, with a history of losing, while two of the others are legends and champions. The fourth person is a legend, but no champion. There are some comparative stats though, which might us inch towards an objective comparison. On the whole, it looks to me like Drummond outperforms both Bill Laimbeer and Ben Wallace by these statistical measures, falling short of Bob Lanier.

Quite an incomplete comparison, I know (no stories of playoff heroics here, for instance), but interesting.

First, I’ll focus on Andre, Bill, and Ben, adding Bob later.

PER’s controversial, I know. Still, the results of comparison are striking. Neither Laimbeer nor Wallace ever reached a PER average above 20 for a season; Drummond’s never been below 20. Laimbeer comes close at 19.2 in 1983-1984; strikingly, by that measure he goes into decline for the next 8 seasons, including the two ships. Wallace peaks at 18.6 in 2000-’01, then hits in the 17s for four years running, maintaining quite a steady peak for 5 seasons, before going into serious decline once he moves to Chicago. Now in his 6th season, Drummond’s at his peak at 23.9. His low of 20.9, last year, still surpasses the season highs hit by Laimbeer and Wallace.

Ranking the season peaks for PER: AD > BLaim > BW.

Thus far, AD blows away the other two in career PER: AD (21. > BLaim (16.1) > BW (15.5).

I’d predict that AD’s PER average will still go up, if he can remain healthy, before declining late in his career.

I also looked at Win Shares, including at WS/48, an average. Wallace peaks at 11.6, topping Laimbeer’s best of 10.8 (both attained in the same season as their highest PER). Here, both beat out Drummond’s season best of 9.9 (2nd season). However, already with 6.4 Win Shares this season, Drummond’s on his way to besting both if he can maintain his pace. This is reflected in his .207 WS/48, which tops Wallace’s best of .190, and Laimbeer’s best of 1.82 (2nd ship!; he was at 1.81 in ’83-’84).

WS total: BW > BillL > AD, again with AD on track to surpass both bests this season. (Not surprisingly, Lanier, Laimbeer, and Wallace all top Drummond in WS career totals, in that order.)

Best WS/48: AD > BW > BillL.

Career WS/48 average: AD: .158 over BLaim: 149 over BW: .140. Again, I expect AD’s average to go up, before showing some decline.

Then, quickly, the comparison between Andre and Bob Lanier. Andre edges Lanier in career PER: 21.8 > 21.7. Bob’s average, however, includes three solid, but declining, years at the end (on the other hand, AD could still be peaking). Like AD, he jumped out of the shoot as a rookie, earning a 20 PER, higher than Bill or Ben ever attained, but lower than AD’s rookie 21.6. Bob’s season peak is at 24.8, higher even than the peak Andre’s working on this season. Bob tops Andre’s current high in two other seasons.

In WS, Bob has a peak of six consecutive seasons, topping Andre’s best thus far each time. He tops Andre’s top, ongoing, WS/48 average handily .227 > .207. In addition, he’s got 4 seasons which I average at .2065, a tiny bit behind Andre’s current best.

Summing up, I’d put Lanier over AD by these statistical measures, and AD over both Laimbeer and Wallace.

For what it’s worth….

[WTF]

Pistons stated the season 14-6 in their first 20 games and it was starting to look like I was wrong about my 39 win prediction.  Then boom they decide to go 8-18 in their next 26 games and current sits 9th in the conference 2 games under .500 at 22-24.   I'm not sure if they'll win these next 3 games feasible they could be 5 games under .500 by months end having to face OKC and the Cavs twice.  

What really makes you mad about this is that they were able to get the start they had going into what look like an easy January schedule with a ton of home games they looked like **** with or without Reggie they should have won a lot of those games.  So the Basketball Gods also decided to give them another easy month with a ton of home games so they should finish the month of February on a high note.  If this slide continues into February they might not win the 39 I predicted. 

They have 36 games remaining and like I said the next 3 wont be a cake walk,  but they could win them 2 of them are at home so anything possible but they don't stick a fork in them because they're done.  

[Oracle]

Highlights of Drummond's performance from NBA.com,


Bradley: The bottom line is that he never was as good as people thought, the stats were right on about him. It's amazing the fans on Langlois's blog figured it out when the last guy commented, "That Boston team hid his deficiencies well"

[Oracle]

I don't know who the next coach should be, but SVG has made some major blunders as a GM as well. He's over paid for marginal talent regularly and put us in a deep financial hole.

That's what made many decisions too hard to make, and couple that with his inability to stop letting players walk for NOTHING, he's leveled a disaster on the franchise that's going to be hard, but not impossible to recover from.

Kidd is the best available coach right now, but I don't think this roster fits his skill set. I really wish there was a young Carlisle out there.

[cool breeze]

[quote="Oracle"]I don't mean to single you out, but you provide the best case for me to make this point. You said,

This team looks much like last season's team after the month of December. This team is the most dysfunctional team in the NBA.

Right after that you proceed to launch into the player blame game!

Just days ago, you said that this team is FUN to watch... so what happened? Did the players all of a sudden change, and if they did why?

You did EXACTLY the same thing last season, your default is to blame players, it's amazing how going through the same thing fails to make you question your assumptions.

It was clear to me that it wasn't all the players, and in general the old saying that the fish stinks from the head applies more times than not.

Failing to diagnose the REAL problem, everybody was happy to replace players that were part of the solution with players that turn out to be worse in the long run.

News Flash: Ish isn't the problem, how Ish is used is the problem. 

Bradley isn't the problem, delusional belief about who and what he was, coupled with how he's used is the problem.

If you're searching for the real issues, look at what's common, the thread that runs through everything![/quote

Opps I wrote my response to your fist post before seeing this one. This is more in line with my own thinking Oracle. We have no disagreement on the coaching. Smith isn't the problem. It is the way he is being allowed to run the team that is the problem. He is running it much like Will Bynum used to run the Piston offense under a different head coach. Is that what you do as a coach when you have thrown in the towel and believe the players you have selected are just not good enough to win much of anything? By allowing your point guard to play offense like Smith is playing the position, I usually think it happens because the coach or owner is trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fans who buy tickets and create a circus act for pure entertainment of watching one incredibly fast point guard run the court. If you know nothing about basketball then as a fan that might be fun to watch much like dunking gets people excited. Maybe that will sell tickets.

By the way AD did throw down an incredible dunk in the 2nd half off of one of Johnson's passes. Maybe SVG will blame the next loss on Jon Leuer's injury. Sure would love to see a coach who is capable of instilling more discipline with the players and finally secure the services of a top tier point guard. That will have to come through the draft. Who would you pick as our next coach?

[cool breeze]

What the hell are you guys trying to prove?

Drummond had a fantastic game, record book good and all you want to do is complain, denigrate his accomplishment? I don't get it!

@Sparma: Who cares if someone did it during cave man days? Is the goal to take away from what he did? I do credit you with fairness on both sides by praising his as well.

@Wise: So if someone during the recorded era came close, what is your argument? Why would you be looking for ways to diminish what he did.

The real issue is that if you watched this game and didn't recognize that what Drummond did wasn't special, you need better basketball glasses. Look, I know you guys are trying to look at a bigger picture, but let's not let this accomplishment get lost in the trees.

My first impression was that I had seen something different from Drummond(and I said it right away), I was impressed but didn't know how special it was, but I knew I had seen something really good.

Then there's Don, with another one of those fake posts! "Who can be happy with AD's stats when the team lost while creating over 20 turnovers?"

Well you can and should if your were a Piston fan. I've seen you giddy with Singler's numbers and Knight's numbers in many losses before. I've seen you rave about Stanley's play in amazing losses, and Bradley silly crap while screwing up the whole team.

But you can't be happy for Drummond because we lost due to HORRIBLE coaching(see Lemon's post)? Sick!

Oracle you are showing your nasty side again being up my past positive comments about some of the players that I find to have potential. Are you being fair Mr. Oracle? I thought that I covered the part about the bad coaching well providing situations where SVG blundered relating to the use of Boban for more than one minute. I saw Smith causing the entire offense to become dysfunctional while the head coach allowed him to run the team in overtime anyway.

Maybe I missed something in my post that you saw. Sorry that you didn't like what I wrote. Why am I not impressed with is all the hype regarding those great stats of AD? It appears to me that the homer press is attempting to get the fans attention off this horrible loss. How can anyone get excited when the team loses and still a player is glorified because of some silly stats? You have to make enough of the right plays to win games. Our players are not doing that including AD. In this case, AD missed his defensive assignment at the end of regulation on the side out of bounds play. AD would admit to that I am sure. Everyone makes mistakes including AD with his turnovers. Fans are the giddy ones buying into the hype. I am not about to pat AD on the back because he gave the effort any $20 million dollar a year player should give each and every game. In this case, AD was motivated to play harder because he didn't make the All Star Game. Where was the effort last season and for many games this year? But I am not saying this loss was AD's fault. In fact my post stated that AD kept the team in the game. I loved the way AD played this game. So what the hell are you trying to do Oracle? You are the hatchet man with these nasty posts maybe because you are so upset with the Pistons losing that you must take it out on the fans. Where are your details about what is going on in games? All you say most of the time is this guy or that guy or that coach needs to be traded or fired. You generalize too much and then come down hard on other posters who observe the individual games and make their comments. We are not always correct but whatever I write it is coming from my heart and is based on what I actually see during the games.

This loss was for sure the players fault. Utah players beat our players again. It doesn't matter who plays for Utah, they seem to always beat up on the Pistons. You cannot play sloppy mindless basketball while committing 20 turnovers and expect to win that game. Who in hell believes that you can overcome that many mistakes? The points that I made in my last post involve the reasons why some of the players made those mistakes. The offense is dysfunctional when Ish Smith runs the offense. There is no way any NBA team will ever be successful regardless of how many great players you might have on your team if the offense is run like it was in this last game when Smith ran it. While I think either Kennard or Bradley should be running the team now, when Galloway played point guard there was evidence of player and ball movement. When Smith ran the offense it was Smith creating all of the offense and then handing the ball off to his teammates in really tough situations. There was evidence of no player movement for most of every shot clock while Smith was in the game. Smith passed to Harris who took too many bad shots that missed instead of passing the ball himself. Players like Kennard, Tolliver, Johnson, Bradley and AD need more consistency in knowing what is going to happen when the half court offense gets into action. Quick missed shots can kill any team. Nobody in this world knows what is going to happen when Smith runs the offense other than Smith will be a big part of everything. And he usually ends up forcing a bad shot at some time. Some games he makes those shots but in the long run there is total dysfunction. It ends up being the coaches fault because he allows this nonsense to keep happening. If Smith cannot or will not run the motion offense like the team practices, then he must go along with Stan Van Gundy and his entire coaching staff. Detroit cannot even beat a bad team with Smith's offense. Make no mistake about it Oracle. What Smith is running relating to his personal offense (not the Piston motion offense) was designed for a point guard who comes in to change the pace for a few minutes at best. His style cannot last more than maybe 4 minutes at a time unless Smith is exceptionally hot and lucky. But SVG has decided the Pistons can tolerate the Smith offense for 25 to 35 minutes a game. For that he needs to be fired from all duties now. Fans love this up tempo hot rod racing up and down the court that gets you nowhere. The rest of the players hate playing basketball that way. You can see it in their faces as they attempt to fall back and patch holes in the defense after Smith gets deep into the baseline corner as the shot clock expires. Yet I saw the screen at the end of the game with "Pistons Live Postgame coming up" saying this.

1. Pistons let one slip away
2. Dre responds to the All-Star snub
3. Ish's strong performance off the bench
4. Stan Van Gundy on 6th straight loss

So that is the story line once again. AD and Smith had superior games. Reggie is out so that is why they lost. Everyone agrees that both Drummond and Smith made some great plays and both played hard. But the team lost to a horrible team at home. The team suffered by committing 20 turnovers and played dumb basketball for too many minutes. There was evidence of bad coaching relating to the use of Boban way too long and by allowing Smith to run the Piston offense in such a dysfunctional way. So far in the last 6 games, the Piston offense has looked completely out of sync. I say it is because Smith is runs his own brand of offense based on him alone creating everything for his team. That wouldn't work in high school varsity. Maybe a coach who had a player like Smith could be successful at the JV level. If Smith would start the offense correctly by giving UP the basketball early and then cutting and moving without the ball, setting screens etc then he could help his teammates. But all I am seeing in the half court set with Smith in the game is a lot of standing around by 4 players while Smith zigs and zags in and out of the paint and then hands the ball off at the end of the shot clock or shoots the ball early in the shot clock. Make or miss the offense become dysfunctional because only one player has any idea what the hell is going on. I don't know if anyone can be successful playing basketball on offense with Smith running it. He is doing what he said he would do in training camp. Read and react. Everything is based on Ish Smith who is the smallest player on the team and is not really a very good shooter. SVG is not using his roster players correctly so they can be successful players because he has no control of what Smith does. Hardaway, the assistant coach for point guards must start taking a lot of the blame along with Stan Van Gundy. But SVG is doing a horrible job. He should have taken out Boban within one minute and replaced him with Moreland in the 3rd quarter and that game wouldn't have even been close. It took Tolliver's two quick 3 pointers to get the Pistons back in the game to stop the bleeding.

If SVG couldn't see what he needed to do then he needs to go now. But I wouldn't want any of the assistant coaches to replace him. They are just as bad or worse. Who would have thought it about SVG? I thought he was a pretty smart coach yet he never had a good enough point guard in Orlando with all those outstanding players years ago. We need to find another Brad Stevens or a young smart head coach who can pick out great assistant coaches who have the ability to help make our players better not worse. Again it is time to tank and allow all of the players who are 24 and younger get most of the playing time. That means the new coach needs to experiment and bring in G League players for some of the remaining games. Get positioned well for this coming draft.

I am puzzled by the play of late by Avery Bradley. It is almost as if he wants to be traded before the trade deadline to get on a team that is going into the playoffs in good position other than the 8th seed. He picked up his defense in the 2nd half but didn't have much of any impact on the offense. But then I go back to Smith running the team. Bradley is a guy like Hamilton who scores by running without the basketball around screens etc. Nobody could do that because the Pistons were running the Smith offense and that is on SVG.

[WTF]

So true everything that's wrong about this team all lies with the coaching and I believe all this player could be relatively respectable if SVG knew what he was doing more times than not.  

I'm of the belief that even the team addressed it's flaw and made the needed upgrades SVG would find some way to screw it up.  This entire coaching staff needs to be replaced more important SVG needs to be fired from both jobs.

[Oracle]

I don't mean to single you out, but you provide the best case for me to make this point. You said,

This team looks much like last season's team after the month of December. This team is the most dysfunctional team in the NBA.

Right after that you proceed to launch into the player blame game!

Just days ago, you said that this team is FUN to watch... so what happened? Did the players all of a sudden change, and if they did why?

You did EXACTLY the same thing last season, your default is to blame players, it's amazing how going through the same thing fails to make you question your assumptions.

It was clear to me that it wasn't all the players, and in general the old saying that the fish stinks from the head applies more times than not.

Failing to diagnose the REAL problem, everybody was happy to replace players that were part of the solution with players that turn out to be worse in the long run.

News Flash: Ish isn't the problem, how Ish is used is the problem. 

Bradley isn't the problem, delusional belief about who and what he was, coupled with how he's used is the problem.

If you're searching for the real issues, look at what's common, the thread that runs through everything!

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