Re: FORUM

[cool breeze]

That is what goes on in some of the Tucson schools now and I can only imagine what is happening in the City of Detroit.

You are a sick puppy 

You are the sick puppy by using the argument of intimiadation ( racism ) to sweep everything under the rug WTF. Exactly what is the graduation rate of students attending Detroit inner city school? What is it like for students who actually do want to get a good education? Do the school board members still have drivers who transport them in stretch vehicles to the most expensive steak house downtown? No for sure the City government and the board of education has never experienced any corruption. I only care about the young kids who have to try to survive and succeed. Why do you fear the truth? By acknowledging the difficult truth about what has happened in the past and perhaps the present, positive change can take place. If people take the political denial attitude no change takes place and the kids continue to suffer. It seems you like using the race card a lot to deflect attention away from the truth. If I were a parent living in any inter city setting today, somehow I would come up with the money to get my kids in a private school. Because of people like you our inter city schools will never change for the better and every issue will be solved by identifying the real evil in the world - ( racism ) or other words that political creatures attempt to connect emotion and mass hysteria to to get out the vote. We are now in the modern area and at least some people have wised up to this nonsense. Those who use the (racism work ) have no interest in improving anything. Keep the status quo and get out the vote. A few who are high up in the party politics will benefit at who's expense? Did the Pistons lose this last game because of ( racism ) or did they lose because of (climate change)? There is no denying that racism will ever go away. Some Blacks hate Whites and especially Jews. Some Whites hate Blacks. Maybe some Asians hate both Blacks and Whites. SO WHAT? There has already been a war fought over that with many Whites having died to free slaves who were from the State of Michigan. And there is no denying that the climate is changing. But for anyone who does not get grant money and is a professor living the good life traveling the world on tax payer money taking about the changing climate, aren't you at least interested in the fact that other countries want more money from us tax payers to help solve the problem of these horrible carbons. And by spending more billions of dollars at our expense the Paris objective is to reduce carbon emissions by .02% after 90 years of spending. Is the Al Gore formula of success correct? Please check out his history as a science expert. But the emotional attachment to the words (climate change) has been achieved. We have a millions of believers and few critical thinkers. Of course most of those believers were never interested in science when they attended school. It is much like the past when a large number of smokers were wearing the badge ( I am an environmentalist ). They walked along looking for violators while having a cigarette dangling from their mouths. Why not worry about our water supply and spend some money on cleaning that up. The public needs to be aware of the fact that water treatment facilities are not yet able to remove drug related chemicals from our water supply. Remember what happened in Pontiac and think about the possibility of even bottled water being contaminated at some time in our future. There is a lot to worry about but I guess everything can be solved by removing any critical thinking by just identifying the guilty individuals by pointing a finger and calling those offenders ( Witches ) or ( racists ). Unless some of us stand up and confront the argument of intimadation tactics (racism) then no progress can ever be made. The money keeps flowing to the wrong people. The kids suffer like always. Nobody cares as long as the problem is identified as (racism).

[WTF]

That is what goes on in some of the Tucson schools now and I can only imagine what is happening in the City of Detroit.

You are a sick puppy 

[WTF]

Fortunately it's only one game and we'll recover with two home games next against very beatable teams in the Knicks & Pacers.

This too was a winnable games that ended up being another loss so I wouldn't look at these next 2 games as being against very beatable teams.  Both are above .500 and actually plays with a lot more passion than we currently do.   Likely because they like their coaches.

If we were a next level team then you can be comfortable concluding that because that's what next level teams do (lose 1 then win 3) My guess is that SVG will find a way to be out coach in what should be winnable games just like last night games was winnable but we manage to lose.

[Phil-Good]

I want to talk about this kid Mitchell from Louisville. I been looking at league pass and the kid is Amazing. Without question this would had been Wiggie Jackson's replacement. But if that kid was drafted by Stan, he would not be at the level he is today in Utah. Van Gundy will f.u.c.k up A young kids potential. Stanley Johnson playing out of position all last season has totally recked his game and confidence.
FACTS! We have to see what Ellinson and Luke can do
No championship will be won with A.T Reggie Bullock.. John Lour...etc.. You have to see what guys can do. Stanley Johnson is TRASH but now you know.It sucks but we had to find out.

I like Luke Kennard. This kid was the correct draft choice. Long term, I like Luke's potential just as much as Mitchell's. If Luke keeps working hard and adds some strength I see A bigger stronger J.J. Reddic..Jeff Hornick.. 18 year NBA career.

[Oracle]

I wish that was the only problem!

But both Reggie & Harris's production has fallen off a cliff, and it's hard to explain.

Harris once looked like an All Star candidate for sure, now looks like a candidate for least improved player.

Reggie once looked like he'd turned the corner, only to look like last year was his highest upside... talk about dwindling trade value!!!

Hell, we should have traded him after the first few great games!

Yes, Stanley, Tolliver and especially Ish had good games, but Ish stood out shooting 70%!

This is a testament to how effective Drummond is when he's on the floor, as once off, the Mavs went crazy!

It also shows how ineffective SVG is in figuring out how to sub in players in different situations. As Sparma pointed out, we needed scoring and he goes for defense... Wow.

Fortunately it's only one game and we'll recover with two home games next against very beatable teams in the Knicks & Pacers.

[BallinD]

You've heard this from me before, so first some numbers: Drummond: +10, Moreland -22, Boban, +1.

Stan, it's not that hard.  You need to score, bring in the big guy who scores.  (It's on me?!)

Good game for Stanley J.  Credit where ....

I may be smelling both...The Fish Stinks From The Head! He smells like a...you know!      

BTW, what's up with Weggie...our "Leader?"

 The Fat Man is Singing

[Sparma]

You've heard this from me before, so first some numbers: Drummond: +10, Moreland -22, Boban, +1.

I started watching in the second half. AD gets his 4th foul early, exiting the game with the Pistons down 9. In comes Moreland. Wait, in comes Moreland??! You're down 9. You need to score. Why not bring in the back up center who can score? In comes Moreland, Dallas scores 8 in a row to go up 17, and within minutes they're down 23. Boban comes in, doesn't play great, but the margin does decrease to 17. Incidentally, Kelser later commented that once Drummond left [i.e. when Moreland came in] the ball movement slowed down and the team was reduced to jump shooting.

Stan, it's not that hard. You need to score, bring in the big guy who scores. (It's on me?!)

Good game for Stanley J. Credit where ....

[WTF]

It's horrible that we actually had a 7th and 9th pick to go along with 3 8th picks in the last 7 seasons and have failed to put together at best a contending team.  Very Sad Stuff! 

Looking back on that entire list of 8th picks over history it really not a bad spot to pick and my suspicions were just what I thought.  The might be a handful that were bad but most were major pieces on various teams in the league.  There are a handful of HOF'ers and AS on that list so my expectations are fair in what we should be expecting from SJ especially being in his 3rd season.

PS. Damn shame someone stole Charlie V's toilet

[Sparma]

Nice reminder of Miss Cleo, Oracle! Hadn't thought of her in a long time, but that was good stuff. I wanted to see if that number was still valid, but found out she'd passed at 53.

Speaking of psychic ability.... It scary how little we have to show from the draft since Darko (and beyond). Too early to judge the last two, although I don't think SVG has done them any favors with their development. Drummond will be an All Star, but beyond that.... Middleton's really good, but was used as a throw in. In a way, we got Harris out of the Knight pick, but I think Jennings was mainly in it to match salaries in that weird trade with Orlando, hobbled as he was. And yes there were circumstances, but how weird is it to have a #7 and a #8 walk away for nothing, both of whom are decent players? I seriously wonder if we've gotten about as little return as anyone from our draft picks since Darko. A superstar AD would change that, but it looks like a lot of bad choices along with an inability to develop our picks and hold on to them. I realize all teams have hits and misses, but we've had a terrible run.

[Oracle]

Send Don & Stanley to Miss Cleo right NOW!!!

[Sparma]

Thanks for that, WTF. Looks like quite a range, with the average being well beyond SJ. What really hurts is that we don't have more to show for a set of three #8 picks in a five year period. And that doesn't include the, what, #9 we gave away in the Ben Gordon trade.

2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers

2000’s

2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats (Draft rights traded to Golden State Warriors)
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets (Draft rights traded to Memphis Grizzlies)
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers (Draft rights traded to Chicago Bulls)

1990’s

1999 Andre Miller, Utah – Cleveland Cavaliers
1998 Larry Hughes, Saint Louis – Philadelphia 76ers
1997 Adonal Foyle, Colgate – Golden State Warriors
1996 Kerry Kittles, Villanova – New Jersey Nets
1995 Shawn Respert, Michigan State – Portland Trail Blazers (Draft rights traded to Milwaukee Bucks)
1994 Brian Grant, Xavier – Sacramento Kings
1993 Vin Baker, Hartford – Milwaukee Bucks
1992 Todd Day, Arkansas – Milwaukee Bucks
1991 Mark Macon, Temple – Denver Nuggets
1990 Bo Kimble, Loyola Marymount – L.A. Clippers

1980’s

1989 Randy White, Louisiana Tech – Dallas Mavericks
1988 Rex Chapman, Kentucky – Charlotte Hornets
1987 Olden Polynice, Virginia – Chicago Bulls (Draft rights traded to the Seattle Supersonics)
1986 Ron Harper, Miami (Ohio) – Cleveland Cavaliers
1985 Detlef Schrempf, Washington – Dallas Mavericks
1984 Lancaster Gordon, Louisville – L.A. Clippers
1983 Antoine Carr, Wichita State – Detroit Pistons
1982 Quintin Dailey, San Francisco – Chicago Bulls
1981 Tom Chambers, Utah – San Diego Clippers
1980 Andrew Toney, Southwest Louisiana – Philadelphia 76ers

1970’s

1979 Calvin Natt, Northeast Louisiana – New Jersey Nets
1978 Freeman Williams, Portland State – Boston Celtics
1977 Jack Sikma, Illinois Wesleyan – Seattle Supersonics
1976 Robert Parish, Centenary – Golden State Warriors
1975 Junior Bridgeman, Louisville – L.A. Lakers
1974 Campy Russell, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers
1973 Mike Bantom, St. Joseph’s – Phoenix Suns
1972 Tom Riker, South Carolina – New York Knicks
1971 Darnell Hillman, San Jose State – San Francisco Warriors
1970 Geoff Petrie, Princeton – Portland Trail Blazers

1960’s

1969 Herm Gilliam, Purdue – Cincinnati Royals
1968 Gary Gregor, South Carolina – Phoenix Suns
1967 Tom Workman, Seattle – St. Louis Hawks
1966 Jim Barnett, Oregon – Boston Celtics
1965 Ollie Johnson, San Francisco – Boston Celtics
1964 Willis Reed, Grambling State University – New York Knicks (2nd round)
1963 Bill Green, Colorado State – Boston Celtics
1962 Terry Dischinger, Purdue University – Chicago Zephyrs (2nd round)
1961 Cleo Hill, Winston-Salem – St. Louis Hawks
1960 Tom Sanders, New York University – Boston Celtics

[Oracle]

Quick answer... HELL NO!!!

SJ is the worst top 10 pick the Pistons have had in recent years, and one of the highest praised by someone here 

[WTF]

2017 Frank Ntilikina, France – New York Knicks
2016 Marquese Chriss, Washington – Sacramento Kings
2015 Stanley Johnson, Arizona – Detroit Pistons
2014 Nik Stauskas, Michigan – Sacramento Kings
2013 Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Georgia – Detroit Pistons
2012 Terrence Ross, Washington – Toronto Raptors
2011 Brandon Knight, Kentucky – Detroit Pistons
2010 Al-Farouq Aminu, Wake Forest – L.A. Clippers

2000’s

2009 Jordan Hill, Arizona – New York Knicks
2008 Joe Alexander, West Virginia – Milwaukee Bucks
2007 Brandan Wright, North Carolina – Charlotte Bobcats (Draft rights traded to Golden State Warriors)
2006 Rudy Gay, Connecticut – Houston Rockets (Draft rights traded to Memphis Grizzlies)
2005 Channing Frye, Arizona – New York Knicks
2004 Rafael Araujo, BYU – Toronto Raptors
2003 T.J. Ford, Texas – Milwaukee Bucks
2002 Chris Wilcox, Maryland – L.A. Clippers
2001 DeSagana Diop, Oak Hill Academy (Va.) – Cleveland Cavaliers
2000 Jamal Crawford, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers (Draft rights traded to Chicago Bulls)

1990’s

1999 Andre Miller, Utah – Cleveland Cavaliers
1998 Larry Hughes, Saint Louis – Philadelphia 76ers
1997 Adonal Foyle, Colgate – Golden State Warriors
1996 Kerry Kittles, Villanova – New Jersey Nets
1995 Shawn Respert, Michigan State – Portland Trail Blazers (Draft rights traded to Milwaukee Bucks)
1994 Brian Grant, Xavier – Sacramento Kings
1993 Vin Baker, Hartford – Milwaukee Bucks
1992 Todd Day, Arkansas – Milwaukee Bucks
1991 Mark Macon, Temple – Denver Nuggets
1990 Bo Kimble, Loyola Marymount – L.A. Clippers

1980’s

1989 Randy White, Louisiana Tech – Dallas Mavericks
1988 Rex Chapman, Kentucky – Charlotte Hornets
1987 Olden Polynice, Virginia – Chicago Bulls (Draft rights traded to the Seattle Supersonics)
1986 Ron Harper, Miami (Ohio) – Cleveland Cavaliers
1985 Detlef Schrempf, Washington – Dallas Mavericks
1984 Lancaster Gordon, Louisville – L.A. Clippers
1983 Antoine Carr, Wichita State – Detroit Pistons
1982 Quintin Dailey, San Francisco – Chicago Bulls
1981 Tom Chambers, Utah – San Diego Clippers
1980 Andrew Toney, Southwest Louisiana – Philadelphia 76ers

1970’s

1979 Calvin Natt, Northeast Louisiana – New Jersey Nets
1978 Freeman Williams, Portland State – Boston Celtics
1977 Jack Sikma, Illinois Wesleyan – Seattle Supersonics
1976 Robert Parish, Centenary – Golden State Warriors
1975 Junior Bridgeman, Louisville – L.A. Lakers
1974 Campy Russell, Michigan – Cleveland Cavaliers
1973 Mike Bantom, St. Joseph’s – Phoenix Suns
1972 Tom Riker, South Carolina – New York Knicks
1971 Darnell Hillman, San Jose State – San Francisco Warriors
1970 Geoff Petrie, Princeton – Portland Trail Blazers

1960’s

1969 Herm Gilliam, Purdue – Cincinnati Royals
1968 Gary Gregor, South Carolina – Phoenix Suns
1967 Tom Workman, Seattle – St. Louis Hawks
1966 Jim Barnett, Oregon – Boston Celtics
1965 Ollie Johnson, San Francisco – Boston Celtics
1964 Willis Reed, Grambling State University – New York Knicks (2nd round)
1963 Bill Green, Colorado State – Boston Celtics
1962 Terry Dischinger, Purdue University – Chicago Zephyrs (2nd round)
1961 Cleo Hill, Winston-Salem – St. Louis Hawks
1960 Tom Sanders, New York University – Boston Celtics

[Sparma]

Good point about a lot of issues with SJ turning on where he was drafted. That said, I wasn't saw a breakdown of how players drafted at the different slots did in the NBA. As memory serves, the #8 pick's hardly a shoo in for stardom. Still, it's a reasonable hope.

Had SJ been drafted in the 2nd round, I'd be enthusiastic about him: here's a guy who was a superstar in HS, winning 4 state titles, in California, and a star in college, but he's willing to transform himself into a hustle player in the NBA because he sees he can have a niche there for a long time in the NBA, deep in the rotation.

I think we're not the only ones struggling with expectations. I think SJ himself has trouble coming to terms with NBA reality given his enormous early achievements.

Having watched SJ, I have trouble giving SVG a pass on drafting a guy with such a crummy looking shot (for the NBA) at #8. Once in a while, a player makes a huge leap with a skill once in the NBA (maybe most commonly with FT and 3 pt shooting, stuff you can practice in the gym), but I think it's rare for a basic skill (like standard, in traffic, shooting) makes a quantum leap once in the NBA. Most of the growth, in my view, comes from opportunity, fit, physically maturing, and experience in coping with (the speed of) the NBA game. I know Malone improved vastly at the FT line and Jason Kidd from 3. Do we know of a crummy shooting player as an NBA rookie (not before against comparatively week competition) to becoming a good NBA shooter? Maybe Kidd overall? Maybe I'm overly pessimistic there. MJ and Magic were two who improved their jumpers significantly. But's it rare. I'd be will to make a 2nd round gamble on a super athletic player (but is that really SJ?) with a suspect shot, but that's an enormous gamble at #8. Seems clear now that was a bad choice by SVG.

[Sparma]

WTF wrote: "I don't think Kennard is one of those players deserving of it and can't think of a reason SVG would be incline to treat him that way.  IMO SVG does it out of cowardliness because he can't control the Reggie's and Andre's nor players like Stanley Johnson who clearly needs tough love coaching approach."

I agree that this shows cowardliness by SVG.  Foolishness too, because he's showing an inability to find the right coaching approach for the right person, at the right time, in the right measure.

[Sparma]

Don wrote: "Then he proceeded to grab me by the shoulder pads and slam me against the window of every seat on the bus on that one side."

You're referring to your coach there, Don, right (not your Dad)?  If you'd said something like: it's often problematic to judge the past by today's standards, I'd be sympathetic.  But at least: by today's standards, that's physical abuse.  I've done a lot of youth soccer coaching at the Y.  A coach doing that stuff you describe today would be let go at once, Don.  My guess is that the question just would be if legal action would be taken.  If it were, the coach would be in deep trouble.

There doesn't seem to be enough agreement concerning definitions and premises between you and me, Don, to allow for a fruitful discussion of the issue.  Symptomatic of some of the deep divides in our country?

[WTF]

@Wise: Once we got cell phones, the internet and social media, a lot of things changed between players. In addition, players now take a more global view.

Without social media and cell phones players were more isolated, easy communication wasn't as possible, so players were pretty much isolated in their cities and regions.

However, just like everything in an evil country(see Don's crazy posts), you have to follow the money!

In the old days the players were LESS dependent on each other to make money, the money was mostly regionally isolated. TV money was there, but less of a factor.

Today, stars realize that they NEED other stars in order to make the maximum amount of money possible, there's no incentive to really be out for someone unless they're a scrub.

Just like the jobs that went overseas, those days are gone and aren't coming back, and we surely miss them at times.

Off Topic, but relevant: Remember this, because it's active and working on all of us. The easiest and most effective form of mind control is REPETITION!

After watching the Magic and Isiah piece I immediately felled back to those 80's and early 90's moments that kept many of us emotionally connected to all the players and teams back then.    Man I immediately starting watching every YouTube clip of interviews and stories and I swear this was the greatest time ever and we'll never see anything like it again.

I'm glad I got to watch and witness the Pistons win titles twice with the Bad Boys and then watch them win it again in 2004.  What I enjoyed most is the first time they won a Championship because we as fans all grew along with Zeke in his process to finally become a Champion.  We watched our rookie star pick do what we think all rookie picks should do and be like.  

I miss all the real rivalries of the past between teams and players back then now days it done to who can out tweet each other.  Back in the day they did all their talking in the games, you seen it in the way they prepared for games during the season and during off season.  I could really respect the players from the 80's and part of the 90's because they put in the work big time to be better and they took the game more seriously then these current cats.

Some of the conversation we have on here about some of our current players just makes me sick to my stomach.  There was a time when you selected a player at #8 in the NBA drafted you were almost guaranteed an All Star player.  We couldn't imagine having a conversation then like we have right now about a player like Stanley Johnson a #8 pick.   An #8 pick was almost certainly to come in the league making an immediate impact yet we've fallen into making excuses while being in a wait and see mode.  SMH

I wouldn't call it evolution Oracle though I agree technology has progress and improve but people seem to have gotten worse.  Seriously what does technology have to do with being competitive or and wanting to win.  If this is not the jest of sport why are we watching it.   If the completion is to see who gets the bigger deal really why are we watching it?

Cell phones, social media,  internet has nothing to do with wanting to win.  In fact it should be a tool if nothing else.  Imagine if MJ, Magic, Zeke, Bird and those guys tweeted.   Everything would be censored.  All I'm saying is where the heart and dedication?

[WTF]

@Sparma,  I'm all for tough love coaching as long as it's fair across the board, but I also recognize a coach having his favorites or pet players. I don't think that tough love coaching is designed for every player but some do require it.   I don't think Kennard is one of those players deserving of it and can't think of a reason SVG would be incline to treat him that way.  IMO SVG does it out of cowardliness because he can't control the Reggie's and Andre's nor players like Stanley Johnson who clearly needs tough love coaching approach.  Overall SVG approach should be tough love across the board no exceptions but it needs to be done with a purpose of improving a player not breaking them down.

@Don, the pampering has to stop with these players, along with all the excuses, bar lowering, and so on.   Pro sports across the various league was meant for men not boys and when the boy came he learned to be a man.   Hayes and Knights were maniacs but damn good coaches and soft players beware didn't last long with these types of coaches.   SVG is simply wrong in his approach and does it unfairly but I certainly don't have issue with tough love and really the lack of it in todays game is one a hand full of reasons we see the crap on the floor we do today.   


SVG-Kennard, really SVG should be gifting Kennard PT just in the manner he gifted it to SJ if he expects Kennard to improve, the tough love approach won't work with Kennard because he's already tough, he's already a smart player, he's already capable and ready to play major minutes.  Everything else will fall in place with this kid.  He may or may not be an All Star that gets voted in by fans, but he certainly can be one that get selected by the coaches.  Alienation is what going to happen once Kennard stops respecting SVG.  Brings me back to Tay's comment about buffoonery I can see Kennard looking at SVG in the same manner.  

Reggie, Dre and SJ can blow coverage all day in a game and still play 30 minutes and yes we all have seen it before.  My goodness all three are still making rookie mistakes today.  So by measurement alone SVG was wrong for yanking the kid.

[Oracle]

@Wise: Once we got cell phones, the internet and social media, a lot of things changed between players. In addition, players now take a more global view.

Without social media and cell phones players were more isolated, easy communication wasn't as possible, so players were pretty much isolated in their cities and regions.

However, just like everything in an evil country(see Don's crazy posts), you have to follow the money!

In the old days the players were LESS dependent on each other to make money, the money was mostly regionally isolated. TV money was there, but less of a factor.

Today, stars realize that they NEED other stars in order to make the maximum amount of money possible, there's no incentive to really be out for someone unless they're a scrub.

Just like the jobs that went overseas, those days are gone and aren't coming back, and we surely miss them at times.

Off Topic, but relevant: Remember this, because it's active and working on all of us. The easiest and most effective form of mind control is REPETITION!

After watching the Magic and Isiah piece I immediately felled back to those 80's and early 90's moments that kept many of us emotionally connected to all the players and teams back then.    Man I immediately starting watching every YouTube clip of interviews and stories and I swear this was the greatest time ever and we'll never see anything like it again.

I'm glad I got to watch and witness the Pistons win titles twice with the Bad Boys and then watch them win it again in 2004.  What I enjoyed most is the first time they won a Championship because we as fans all grew along with Zeke in his process to finally become a Champion.  We watched our rookie star pick do what we think all rookie picks should do and be like.  

I miss all the real rivalries of the past between teams and players back then now days it done to who can out tweet each other.  Back in the day they did all their talking in the games, you seen it in the way they prepared for games during the season and during off season.  I could really respect the players from the 80's and part of the 90's because they put in the work big time to be better and they took the game more seriously then these current cats.

Some of the conversation we have on here about some of our current players just makes me sick to my stomach.  There was a time when you selected a player at #8 in the NBA drafted you were almost guaranteed an All Star player.  We couldn't imagine having a conversation then like we have right now about a player like Stanley Johnson a #8 pick.   An #8 pick was almost certainly to come in the league making an immediate impact yet we've fallen into making excuses while being in a wait and see mode.  SMH

[cool breeze]

[quote="Sparma"]Stan's sorta backing away from his quick hook with Kennard.  The Freep headline reads "Detroit Pistons' Van Gundy admits he pulled Luke Kennard too quickly" but the story seems more complicated than that.  Stan's position seems to be: a) I was right that Kennard screwed up, but b) maybe I should have reacted differently.

Of course part of the problem with Stan's behavior is that it's wildly inconsistent (hence unfair).  I'm assuming that both Dre and Reggie have missed a defensive assignment or two along the way but I can't remember them ever being publicly humiliated with a two minute hook.  Instead, he jumped all over Reggie's critics when there was a locker room rebellion, as best I know for his selfishness on O combined with his lax D.  I've seen Kennard get burned on D, but he generally seems to try really hard, shuffling his feet like a madman.  It's hard to me to see good coaching in Stan's humiliation of the guy.

Don, am I hearing you right that you're recounting your coach being physically abusive of you, with your Dad consistently backing up his behavior, and with you (eventually) approving as well?  For once, I'm well nigh speechless, except to note that times have changed, and to say that I think it's a good thing that coaches no longer get away with that stuff in this country.  And, yes, I know that abusive coaches like Woody Hayes and Bobby Knight were capable of great success.


Sparma

Sparma your identification of my experience with my coach as "abusive" is special. This is a good area where more discussion should be more discussion should take place in our current world. A friend stated recently that he feels that somehow our media has reverted back to some of the antics that took place during the Salem Witchcraft Trials. Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God edicts by Cotton Mather stirred the population to speculate that if you might have a slight twitch in one eye you must be a witch. The only way to determine the truth was to accept testimony of witnesses who just had to point a finger at the guilty party and then they would be placed in a bag full of rocks and thrown in a deep lake. Everyone was guilty because they did die.

Now it seems that everyone is looking hard to find some type of abuse and make a charge when the person accused is rich or holds some important title or job. Coaches are continually charged with something especially when their players lose games and basketball might be the most volatile of all where no two people usually have the same opinion as to what when right or wrong when a team loses. Usually people who have never participated in organized sports are shocked when they might see some football or basketball coach yelling at players. Now for sure coaches make sure they do not touch their players. But the real story especially relating to football is that if you are a football player the last thing you worry about is if the coach is getting physically abusive with you. Football is violent and there are a lot of mean nasty players who lay the game. If you are not really big and still want to play then the thing you worry about are those dirty players who are tying to gouge your eyes out after your get tackled and are on the bottom of the pile. How many times did I hear " Get his eyes" when I was under a pile of players. Fingers were trying to get through my face mask.I always thought the media's attack on Woody Hayes was unjustified. Woody loved his players. I always hated Ohio State but loved the antics Woody made on the sidelines especially the time when he came out on the field at U of M stadium and ripped up the yard markers. When I played football in high school our coach looked like Adolf Hitler. He was a WW2 war hero who came back after the war and played college football when they didn't weak a face mask and had pats that did not help reduce the pain of getting hit at all. He kicked the football bare footed and practiced with us letting us tackle him when he wore no pads. My coach was a true hero. Everyone knew if he hit you on the shoulder pads or jerked you around to show you where or how you should be positioned that he really cared about you the player and wanted you to be the best athlete possible. We athletes never really know ourselves what kind of work it takes to be at our best. We need coaches who do know and actually care about us. I loved playing sports in my era. Something is missing now. Remember how Zeke used to talk about Bobby Knight and how that coach used profanity? Zeke might have mocked Knight but it was all in good fun because he knew that Knight was a character and had a unique way to getting the best out of his players. Now the lawyers and the politically correct experts are all engaged with everything from politics to sports. No longer can a principal search a drug dealers locker unless you have a warrant. In my era I loved it when one of our teachers took some punk out of the classroom and beat his ass and then dragged him by the hair to the principals office. We were all afraid of those bad students. We thought of those teachers who stepped up were heroes and of course we were not about to start disrupting the class. I feel for the good students in inter city public schools where they have to witness punks beat up on female teachers and small male teachers. When the teacher gets out of the hospital and returns to the classroom they find that same student sitting at a desk who had been suspended for one week and was not charged with assault because of an administration decision. If you get too many assault charges in one high school then the administration of the school is determined to be not doing their job. That is what goes on in some of the Tucson schools now and I can only imagine what is happening in the City of Detroit.

Order no longer exists in our society. If you work for social services and are called in by a school principal in Tucson who actually cares about the students and notifies social services that a kid has all the signs of being abused then there are special rules that apply as to how the investigation will be run. If the situation involves a middle class or upper class family then there will be a complete investigation. However, if there is a single mother who has relationships with ex con Arian Brotherhood members in a home where there are kids growing up where every kid has a different father, then it seems that very little will be done or the investigation will be very limited. The investigator might be a bit fearful that nobody would have their backs if they came up with anything. It seems to be that there is very limited concentration among people in the public relating to behavior of the worst of the worst as they trample over others and a lot of attention made involving public figures. Stan Van Gundy can do no good. He is abusive. Donald Trump is a horrible person and has done nothing positive for our country. The media has declared that to be true. Everyone jump on board. Call them both witches.

Yet everyone is very concerned about how Stan Van Gundy talked to one player vs another player. I was upset with that last season. But now I believe I know why. SVG knows he has two players who make the most money who are very difficult to coach. I think that Reggie Jackson has been a bad influence on Andre Drummond. But now AD has matured and seems to be more of his own man. AD is not where he could be as a player yet but seems to be improving. Who knows if he is now more receptive to coaching but one positive sign is the way he has changed his free throw shooting technique. They learned how to shoot that shot from somebody. So that must mean that he has some sort of open mind. Does Reggie Jackson have an open mind? Is he coachable. Does he want to learn how to be a good point guard? I think that SVG has determined after a lot of experience dealing with Reggie that Jackson is not a guy who will get better by using any form of discipline. Reggie has a chip on his shoulder that he uses on the floor to gather up the mojo to out fox the opposition so he can score. He appears to look as if his mind is closed as to any form of game plan the team has on any given night. He always plays the same way regardless of the competition. There are no adjustments. If he is not scoring he plays even worse on defense. The result is that Reggie Jackson is not a good teammate to have if you want to win a championship. Where some athletes may not like being slapped around or pulled around by a coach who might even swear at you at times, others like me saw the big picture and knew if our hearts that that hard nosed coach was somehow making me a much better athlete. And I never felt I was being abused and none of my teammates felt they were being abused. They would laugh at that thought. We loved our coach who turned out to be a great principal that people talk about to this day who knew him. It is the other numbers type coaches that I distrust. There are a lot of politically correct coaches out there who will throw a players under the bus in one second if they think that player might hurt their own career. They might play a player who is the superintendents son instead of a much better player just to solidify that coaches place in that school system. Where there is no emotion to me then there is a clear sign that the coach is not a bonding type of individual at all. When you play for that kind of coach then it is necessary to have players only team meetings and you and your teammates decide how you are going to overcome the politically correct coach and create a positive team chemistry that the coach cannot destroy. Most players size up things pretty well and very quickly. The NBA is very different because everyone is on a contract. That is a very difficult place to be as a coach so the money must be fantastic.

What will Reggie do in this next game? I am sure the coach has no idea. That is why he needs to be traded regardless of how well he might play on any given night. The point guard has to be a leader. That requires great character where the point guard knows every player and their habits well and can make them look better on the floor when their careers are on the line. Reggie Jackson is not that person. He is a 2 guard shooting specialist.

[WTF]

Reflecting only puts further distance in me ever truly connecting with our current team because things are so easy now and the bar has been lowered lower than a ant's dick and here we sit debating if our team can even finish 8th to make the playoffs.  Watching all those old 80's clips and old 90's clips just show how little of work into winning our current group of players put in to wanting to be winners.  **** Andre and Reggie and most definitely **** Stanky Johnson 

There are some PG from then that never won a title maybe not even a playoff game that Reggie could never be as good as.  I swear I was sitting here watching old clips of Mark Price, Scott Skiles, Gary Payton, Kevin Johnson, and the list goes on.  I simply can't respect Reggie's game.

I watched old Patrick Ewing clips and I saw what a franchised center suppose looks like.  I know many of you love Andre but he's not a franchise player at all by no means.  We can talk about Ewing not winning a championship but many were asking him to beat MJ, Dream, Miller and a whole **** load of All stars but most night we just want Andre to beat anybody and he barely does it.   I don't even want Andre to be as good as Ewing but at least be a Big Ben Wallace BTW wasn't a franchise center.

Geez you think Reggie and Andre could be a watered down version of Lil Penny and Shaq.   

[WTF]

After watching the Magic and Isiah piece I immediately felled back to those 80's and early 90's moments that kept many of us emotionally connected to all the players and teams back then.    Man I immediately starting watching every YouTube clip of interviews and stories and I swear this was the greatest time ever and we'll never see anything like it again.

I'm glad I got to watch and witness the Pistons win titles twice with the Bad Boys and then watch them win it again in 2004.  What I enjoyed most is the first time they won a Championship because we as fans all grew along with Zeke in his process to finally become a Champion.  We watched our rookie star pick do what we think all rookie picks should do and be like.  

I miss all the real rivalries of the past between teams and players back then now days it done to who can out tweet each other.  Back in the day they did all their talking in the games, you seen it in the way they prepared for games during the season and during off season.  I could really respect the players from the 80's and part of the 90's because they put in the work big time to be better and they took the game more seriously then these current cats.

Some of the conversation we have on here about some of our current players just makes me sick to my stomach.  There was a time when you selected a player at #8 in the NBA drafted you were almost guaranteed an All Star player.  We couldn't imagine having a conversation then like we have right now about a player like Stanley Johnson a #8 pick.   An #8 pick was almost certainly to come in the league making an immediate impact yet we've fallen into making excuses while being in a wait and see mode.  SMH

[Sparma]

Stan's sorta backing away from his quick hook with Kennard. The Freep headline reads "Detroit Pistons' Van Gundy admits he pulled Luke Kennard too quickly" but the story seems more complicated than that. Stan's position seems to be: a) I was right that Kennard screwed up, but b) maybe I should have reacted differently.

Of course part of the problem with Stan's behavior is that it's wildly inconsistent (hence unfair). I'm assuming that both Dre and Reggie have missed a defensive assignment or two along the way but I can't remember them ever being publicly humiliated with a two minute hook. Instead, he jumped all over Reggie's critics when there was a locker room rebellion, as best I know for his selfishness on O combined with his lax D. I've seen Kennard get burned on D, but he generally seems to try really hard, shuffling his feet like a madman. It's hard to me to see good coaching in Stan's humiliation of the guy.

Don, am I hearing you right that you're recounting your coach being physically abusive of you, with your Dad consistently backing up his behavior, and with you (eventually) approving as well? For once, I'm well nigh speechless, except to note that times have changed, and to say that I think it's a good thing that coaches no longer get away with that stuff in this country. And, yes, I know that abusive coaches like Woody Hayes and Bobby Knight were capable of great success.

[Oracle]

The addition of Bradley, Galloway, Kennard and Moreland has been great in my opinion. I realize that my opinion is not popular most of the time but it is what it is just an opinion. Also, I believe the coaching staff and the head coach, SVG, has done a far better job this season and do not believe the extreme ridicule is justified. I have been the back seat driver a lot and wish I could take back some of the things that I have said about the head coach.

This coming from the guy that went TOXIC on SVG, the team, SVG's dog, and would have kicked his mother down 2 flights of stairs if he could have gotten close enough???

Oh, now that you feel good and your opinion(if that's what your calling it) has done a 180 about 10 times, everybody else are a bunch of nervous nellies   

I don't mind you having an unpopular opinion, I had one all last off season, I just tried to support mine as much as possible with some semblance of facts. Hell, we all stretch the truth or fracture a fact once in awhile, but at least try, LOL!

Look, Bradly has had a positive effect, only a fool would deny that, the question is how far reaching is it? 

1. Was it Bradley that taught Stanley to become a brick layer? Does he get credit for that?
2. Was it Bradley that taught Bullock how to move without the ball, play defense, and shoot the 3?
3. Should Drummond bow down and thank Bradley for his improved assists and FT's, and the fantastic rim protection we've seen in the last few games since Bradley is out?
4. Should we be glad that Bradley straightened out SVG?
5. What was the Bradley effect on Harris?

The shocking thing is that SVG had the nerve to say Bradley was an all star... WTF??? Hey, I like the guy, but he's hardly an all star by any measure.

BTW, all of you guys that wanted Bullock in the starting lineup, you're looking pretty smart right about now, and, IMO, only health can get him out of there... sorry Stanley!

But I warned everyone here... Bradley is ALWAYS injured!!! It happens every year, the dude has NEVER played anything close to a full season in his career. Oh, and he probably wouldn't have this groin injury if you stayed off his jock so much  

For those who have followed Avery Bradley’s career, this injury does not come as much of a surprise. He is a player who seems to miss random stretches of games quite a bit due to nagging injuries. He has only played in more than 75 games twice in his eight year career, and has played under 60 games four times.

It's impossible to be an all star or even effective from the injured reserve list... we have to move him at the deadline if he's breathing!

Don, if you love Bradley so much, why don't you pay him to guard your lawn, it'll save you from yelling at all of those kids 

[cool breeze]

[quote="Murph"]I see one mock draft has the Pistons taking PF Moritz Wagner from Michigan with their 1st round pick.

Do any of you Michigan fans have an opinion on this kid?  I haven't seen him play, but it looks as if he's big and can shoot.[/quote

Not sure about Wagner but he plays hard. I watch a lot of Michigan games.

My dream pick for the Pistons in the next draft is Collin Sexton who plays at Alabama. I watched him play one game in person this season and he looked outstanding. The Pistons would need to move up big time in the draft meaning they would need to give up somebody who we all like a lot on this current Piston roster. But I cannot believe our Pistons will go very far with the current point guards. That is the position that needs a big upgrade. Yet we could use a dynamic two way power forward as well. But in the NBA success starts with the point guards. It is high time management does their job and finds the point guard to take us to the title.

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