Bye Bye Melo...

[Oracle]

As sung by Ann Margret in this great intro/outro form Bye Bye Birdie

[WTF]

Should head to OKC and play with Westbrook and Melo do not go to Cavs please.

[Oracle]

@#$#$# Lions!!! They ruined my Sunday and I can't even say they were robbed! Lack of a solid running game came back to bite them. I had this game as a loss, but when they got that close, I got real greedy! Oh well, the Cardiac Cats couldn't get it done, but the effort was there.

@Sparma - Damn Sparma, just when I was ready to agree with your Philly like tanking, you say wait and see  . Oh well, I actually do agree with you.

@Wise - They should just take religion and politics out of sports... PERIOD! WTF does the national anthem have to do with football? Nothing! BTW, it's tough to listen to a person who turned his back on his country when they needed him to fight for it trying to tell somebody how to honor the country. That's not political, it's just facts!

[WTF]

Hard not to say something I really tried not to but Donald Trump is a retard period.   I can't think of any other time in my lifetime that a leader of this country acted in the child like manner seen on a daily whatever the issue and subject matter might be.

First the manner in which he uses Twitter as a method of communicating speaks volumes on the mental status of this man.   If we didn't know any better we would think a 14 year old was using his Twitter account.  SMH!!!!

Why does he feel it necessary to chime in on sports at all is beyond me.  This man has no more respect to the Flag, Anthem, or American values as these players he falsely accuse of being Americans.

First I commend the NFL owners and Commissioner for taking a stance against Trumps comments but they still bear some blame of this Kapernick  issue that has these players across all sports standing in protest.

Players want to win titles, hold championship trophies and yes go to Disney, have parades and visit the WH.  This is what they dream and think about beyond big contracts and fame.   The WH has been contaminated with ignorance, and racism and players don't want to go and I can understand it as I believe most people do. For thus that don't the issue of racism, sexism, and hatred is not a game or a TV show and the **** that he does and say for kicks and giggles is not funny at all.

This man has no moral compass and his mouth and childish mind leads to moments like this.  If you want everyone standing for the Anthem and Saluting the American flag then make it mean something for everyone and not just some.

[Sparma]

I've been a proponent of Philly style tanking. At this stage though, the Pistons are built to perform now. I expect them to win, at quite a modest pace (maybe 42-40, 43-39). If the season doesn't go according to plan, or even if they're half way decent but Bradley leaves after having been a crucial cog, I think they should tank then. This is a wait and see season, or even make or break season for this regime. I doubt SVG is capable of deliberate tanking anyway; he's got way too much of an instinct for self-preservation. He'd likely need to be removed before we started tanking in earnest.

The Detroit Pistons might be in one of the least advantages positions in the NBA. The team is talented with many interesting pieces, but they likely have no chance of winning a title anytime soon. Moreover, they are not terrible, and thus, have no realistic chance of landing a top pick to add a game-changing talent. Finally, Detroit has never been a free agent destination and therefore, has little-to-no chance of adding a star that way. So should the Pistons consider the “T” word, and tank?

Hell yes they should consider the T-Word and the R-Word as well.    Tank and Rebuild should be the theme around here oppose to all this false hope that we have the right anything yet alone the right talent.   

It's not to early to think about a complete cleansing of a house that's completely broken and some just refuse to accept it.  Why is it that we can't say without doubt that this and that will happen when we access the bulk of this roster and we're reduce to if's oppose to recognizing and seeing true growth.

If Reggie this, if Andre that, if Bradley stays and if Harris plays.  We have a team full of **** if's.  Please tank, and rebuild start trading off your assets now before it becomes too late.  Short of our newly drafted SG I say everything is an option and up for grabs, I say fire SVG as both coach and President and build this team the way it should be built.  

This is bullshit and I no longer have the patience with the Reggie's and Andre's and the **** load of overpaid role players being passed off as starters

[WTF]

The Detroit Pistons might be in one of the least advantages positions in the NBA. The team is talented with many interesting pieces, but they likely have no chance of winning a title anytime soon. Moreover, they are not terrible, and thus, have no realistic chance of landing a top pick to add a game-changing talent. Finally, Detroit has never been a free agent destination and therefore, has little-to-no chance of adding a star that way. So should the Pistons consider the “T” word, and tank?

Hell yes they should consider the T-Word and the R-Word as well.    Tank and Rebuild should be the theme around here oppose to all this false hope that we have the right anything yet alone the right talent.   

It's not to early to think about a complete cleansing of a house that's completely broken and some just refuse to accept it.  Why is it that we can't say without doubt that this and that will happen when we access the bulk of this roster and we're reduce to if's oppose to recognizing and seeing true growth.

If Reggie this, if Andre that, if Bradley stays and if Harris plays.  We have a team full of **** if's.  Please tank, and rebuild start trading off your assets now before it becomes too late.  Short of our newly drafted SG I say everything is an option and up for grabs, I say fire SVG as both coach and President and build this team the way it should be built.  

This is bullshit and I no longer have the patience with the Reggie's and Andre's and the **** load of overpaid role players being passed off as starters

[WTF]

What an incredible loss.  Can't remember a game ending like that.

But here's what irks me about this loss.  Defense gives you three takeaways, your QB gets you to the 1 yard line and we have no run game to get us in the end zone.  I'm pissed at coaching on this loss and the organization as a whole for not getting this team its franchise QB a freaking run game.

[Sparma]

What an incredible loss. Can't remember a game ending like that.

[cool breeze]

"Murph, Lemonpen, Oracle , Sparma, and others who don't participate on the forum as much, have questioned just how conscientious SVG is when it comes to restoring the Pistons to their competitive greatness. We've talked about player shortcomings, but the elephant in the room is, Stan Van Gundy is ill-equipped to lead this franchise as both president and coach; IMHO with his over spending on player talent, he's a piss poor president, and with player development, offensive/defensive schemes and the construction of his coaching staff, he's not the coach for the downtown Detroit Pistons. Training camp starts Tuesday and we will all see just what we've got...I hope I'm wrong and have my foot in my mouth, but I doubt it."

DX, I agree 100% percent on your views of the Pistons coaching.  I never liked the Van Gundy hiring, and I was strongly in favor of hiring Laimbeer as head coach, and other star Pistons (Zeke, Mahorn, Sheed) for other critical positions.


Oracle made a good point in bringing up Chuck Daly and Larry Brown.  You know what was great about those coaches, among other things?  They got the absolute most out of their talent.  In fact, they got more out of some players than they actually had in potential.  Think about it.  Larry Brown took the undrafted Ben Wallace, and turned him into an All-Star and borderline HOFer.  Similarly, he took Chauncey Billups, who had underwhelmed in Boston, and turned him into an All-Star, and one of the best PGs in the league.

And Chuck Daly did the same thing.  He took Bill Laimbeer who was an unimpressive, unathletic journeyman center, and turned him into an All-Star, a defensive star, and the most prolific rebounder of the entire 1980's, over HOF rebounders like Barkeley, Parish and Moses Malone, etc.


Van Gundy, OTOH, took a highly skilled offensive player like Greg Monroe, who is/was a low post scoring machine, and through total incompetence, turned Monroe is an almost useless assets, who he gave away to Milwaukee.

Or Van Gundy takes a huge, uniquely athletic player like Andre Drummond, who can pull down 15 rebounds a game in his sleep and who can block shots like a demon, and turns him into an offense and defensive liability.

And it will be interesting to see how KCP progresses, now that he's out of Detroit.

Murph while I dislike the way SVG has run the organization into the ground by signing Leuer, Boban and Smith to excessive contracts and questioning signing them for any price along with greatly over paying our franchise player AD, I disagree with some of your comments. My complaints relating to SVG involve his failure to process the details and make adjustments. He forced an unworkable offense on the players last season. He hand picked who the team captain would be and then interfered and criticized all of his roster players who were trying to get everyone on board with ending the silly ball dominate point guard offense where AD and the point guard were the first and only options in the Piston offense. That was a crime that no coach should get away with. That a said to the other players that this coach doesn't approve of sharing the basketball, moving without the basketball, setting screens for more than one player or playing both sides of the floor. SVG wanted his point guards (both of them) to hog the ball, over penetrate and look to dish off to AD or shoot it. There is no other explanation because SVG enforced the rule that there would be no more players only meetings last season plus he never made any change in his offensive style. He wanted it that way. He set the team up to be unsuccessful and his coaching staff went right along with it too. After that season and this coach never made any changes in his coaching staff. That tells us everything about Stan Van Gundy. Did he ever really care about the long term welfare of the Pistons? Did he play his over paid free agent Jon Leuer too much insisting that he is a starter caliber player when he was a failure with the Suns as a minimum fringe type rotation player with them?

My disagreement with you involves your comments about Daley and Brown as being the individuals who turned around certain players. I do not deny that the players played well under those coaches but there is more to it than that.

Billups had proved he was an up and coming elite player with the Timberwolves after their starting point guard went down with an injury. He had a great year before he ever arrived in Detroit. Wherever Billups had signed a contract with, he would have been a very successful player after he finally was giving a real opportunity and had matured.

Laimbeer has always given the most credit for his success when he arrived in Detroit to Zeke. He never mentioned his coach relating to his personal improvement. Bill stated on NBA TV that when he arrived in Detroit and had played only a few games, he noticed that Zeke could think three plays ahead or three times faster than the competition. Bill said he could think 2 times as fast as any other big man in the league and that was his advantage. But to have a players like Thomas running the offense made his energy level skyrocket.

Ben Wallace was always a superior defender at every level. His weakness was making too many errors on the offensive end being in the wrong position and committing too many fouls. But Big Ben was a Man among men when he arrived from Orlando in that trade. In his first season without Brown, Ben Wallace changed the Piston culture to Black and Blue from the feminine Teal group. Ben Wallace was Ben Wallace wherever he would have played and whoever the coach might have been.

Your comments about Andre Drummond made me question if you have ever watched him closely since he became a Piston. Drummond has never been a good shot blocker in high school, college or the pros. He has never concentrated at any level of basketball to become a better defender either for any coach who has yelled at the top of their lungs to get though to him that he was capable of becoming an elite defender. Drummond gets confused very easily now on defense in the NBA on defense. He is easily fooled by the man he is guarding. He doesn't understand the rotation system. He doesn't know when to or when not to switch on pick and roll plays. And he has never even thought about boxing out his man on the defensive boards. He turns and watching the ball in flight and looks like a deer in the headlights. How can anyone coach this man? He avoids coaching at all cost and now that he has signed the amazing contract, he doesn't have to even fake listening. Last season he told SVG that is was not using the shooting coach the Pistons signed especially for him. The Pistons had to eat that salary and got nothing out of the shooting coach because he was told to keep his distance from the franchise player team captain.

SVG is an extremely weak politically orientated NBA coach. That was not the way he coached when he coached at the college level. The NBA is corrupt in many ways. It is all about entertainment instead of playing basketball the right way. The Pistons under Van Gundy thought he needed to create a super hero and that guy was supposed to be the brain dead Andre Drummond. AD is no equipped to play the game like Anthony Davis who is a big man with a fantastic brain. If SVG had Anthony Davis, D. Jordan, or even Gortat, he would not look like such a horrible coach because those players would function or do their job correctly. AD does his job as he sees fit. And he doesn't know that he doesn't know which makes the idea of him being the team leader even more scary. But SVG did it anyway. He didn't create an offense to fit his best players. He created an offense to fit AD to get AD good stats. That is what SVG cared about the most. Now he must create an offense to make AD, RJ and JL look amazing. The rest of the roster players can just go to hell as far as SVG is concerned. So that is my biggest reason why SVG should have been fired at the end of last season. However, the team owner was highly involved in creating he hero worship for AD. There is no way that any previous successful Piston coach could have made any headway with AD or made something out of Jon Leuer last season. Maybe the Jon Leuer this season will be better if he gets the same amount of minutes he didn't earn last season. SVG has created a big mess and Tom Gores had a big hand in it too. It was Tom Gores who said that AD was a max player. He also said that Pope was a max player. How do you negotiate with a player if you are the GM when the owner says that kind of thing to the press? Are we surrounded by rich idiots? Dr. Evil would say YES. I feel for the players who are used to playing the game the right way. This coaching staff doesn't endorse that type of activity. The show must go on. AD must go to the All Star game even if it means Detroit will be in last place.

[Murph]

"Murph, Lemonpen, Oracle , Sparma, and others who don't participate on the forum as much, have questioned just how conscientious SVG is when it comes to restoring the Pistons to their competitive greatness. We've talked about player shortcomings, but the elephant in the room is, Stan Van Gundy is ill-equipped to lead this franchise as both president and coach; IMHO with his over spending on player talent, he's a piss poor president, and with player development, offensive/defensive schemes and the construction of his coaching staff, he's not the coach for the downtown Detroit Pistons. Training camp starts Tuesday and we will all see just what we've got...I hope I'm wrong and have my foot in my mouth, but I doubt it."

DX, I agree 100% percent on your views of the Pistons coaching.  I never liked the Van Gundy hiring, and I was strongly in favor of hiring Laimbeer as head coach, and other star Pistons (Zeke, Mahorn, Sheed) for other critical positions.


Oracle made a good point in bringing up Chuck Daly and Larry Brown.  You know what was great about those coaches, among other things?  They got the absolute most out of their talent.  In fact, they got more out of some players than they actually had in potential.  Think about it.  Larry Brown took the undrafted Ben Wallace, and turned him into an All-Star and borderline HOFer.  Similarly, he took Chauncey Billups, who had underwhelmed in Boston, and turned him into an All-Star, and one of the best PGs in the league.

And Chuck Daly did the same thing.  He took Bill Laimbeer who was an unimpressive, unathletic journeyman center, and turned him into an All-Star, a defensive star, and the most prolific rebounder of the entire 1980's, over HOF rebounders like Barkeley, Parish and Moses Malone, etc.


Van Gundy, OTOH, took a highly skilled offensive player like Greg Monroe, who is/was a low post scoring machine, and through total incompetence, turned Monroe is an almost useless assets, who he gave away to Milwaukee.

Or Van Gundy takes a huge, uniquely athletic player like Andre Drummond, who can pull down 15 rebounds a game in his sleep and who can block shots like a demon, and turns him into an offense and defensive liability.

And it will be interesting to see how KCP progresses, now that he's out of Detroit.

[WTF]

Sometimes certain talent can carry a team and make a coach look great, their system look a great and a coach can receive far more credit than deserving because of talent.   Phil Jackson had a system and it worked for him because he had Shaq and Kobe, MJ and Pippen at no time did Jackson actually coached these players, he coached the players around the talent.  

Same argument can be made about Pat Riley coaching LA Showtime Lakers, but what made Riley and Jackson good is that they did not stand in the way of the talent they had.  I doubt Riley coached Magic and Kareem about as much as Jackson coached MJ.   

This brings me to probably the most brilliant of all coaches who both happen to be Pistons coaches.  Chuck said that he use to make it seem like the players were making all the decisions so he allowed Zeke to take control of games and call the plays as he saw fit.  Chuck in my mind is the GREATEST COACH ever to coach in the NBA.  

Larry Brown for all we my have hated about him was like the exact opposite of Chuck because he use to make the players feel as though he was in charge but he knew deep down that the players would get there if they played the right way.  Larry allowed CB to dictate the offense LB didn't call a lot of plays he just manage his personnel.  LB always felt that playing the right way meant doing all the things defensively/offensively correct all the time in fact his play book was all about being fundamentally prepared.    

As far a SVG goes I've never been impressed in all honesty if I had to have a VAN GUNDY I would have preferred his brother Jeff.   Orlando much like MJ's Bulls couldn't get to a Finals until the Pistons stop terrorizing the East.  Jeff did a better job with Ewing than Stan ever did/doing with Howard and now Dre

[BallinD]

Picked to swoon again this year, and not expected to contend for anything, the Pistons have a great opportunity to take that chip on their collective shoulder and show something to somebody.

There is a scenario that may offer a silver lining

With training camp starting next week, we can all begin to see what we shall see.  As of now, its almost like Weggie's affliction/condition is some kind of anchor around the team's neck, because the narrative is that we are doomed unless he rises up from the walking dead.  Physically, he may be somewhat able, though emotionally/mentally, the same old red flags are waving.  And if SVG insists on playing him on the second game of back-to-backs, Houston, we may have a problem!  (He was worst PG in the league, or close on the second night of back-to-backs last year.)

Only practicing once a day is a blessing for those of us who want him gone with his stupid smirk and self-serving ways and terrible defense, and worse passing skills. And now that the new narrative says he is poised to relive his previous annointment as a clutch cornerstone in 2015 when he played nice to get his fat contract so he could proceed to show everybody what was really up...no need to pass, I'm Russel Westbrook 2.0 folks.  

And yeah, I can walk the ball up the court, cause ****, I'm tired from all that dribbling I gotta do.

If his lack of forward progress holds the rest of the team back because SVG will absolutely not  design a modern offense and only tweaks his two-play special, then chemistry and Lame Duck Stan go out the window.  

But, If his absence from half of the practices means the team has to hedge its bets and employ a more creative and egalitarian approach to offense and defense, we may stand a chance of developing a whole roster and a full rotation to utilize the talent Oracle talks about all the time.

In that case, the seats may fill up in LCA, the wins may pile up in DTown, a fifth or sixth seed is possible, and the echo of the Ish era of last year may bounce our team into contention.  I can't help but think Kennard may be a key cog in that active and vibrant iteration of the Pistons, along with Bradley (short as he is...JK) and Boban (tall as he is, but damn, he can pass out of the post with the best of em).

To think that passing, feel for the game, mental toughness, secondary ball handlers, multiple P&Rs and inspired defense, could return to the Pistons and help return the Stones to relevance in the NBA is almost foolhardy.  But it can happen if on the back of Dre, Bradley, Galloway, AT, Tobias, SJ and the Rook, we play with consistent effort and energy.  We can sure use an assist from Bullock and Kennard, who also will assist in steering the good ship toward screening, cutting and passing and high BBall IQ.  That energy then translates to defense and with Bradley and SJ, Moreland, and a booger-free Andre, is it possible, we could make some noise?

[Oracle]

Even with a backup QB, O'Korn, they were impressive on the road, and that defense continues to shut folks down in the 2nd half.

Like Wise, that's all I'll say 

[Oracle]

There is one more thought I had on Bradley. I don't know which way he will go, good, bad or average, but here is a case that may be possible, IMO.

Bradley was on a good team, a team where he was at best the 3rd option. It's possible that coming here, if he could become the 1st or 2nd option, his production could increase.

His averages certainly make you believe that given more opportunity he could generate more production, possibly becoming a 18-20 ppg player.

Watching him play, I think the best guard for him to play with is Ish, Reggie's offense is too slow, this team thrives in a higher tempo offense.

Oh well, we're getting close to seeing how this thing is progressing...

[Oracle]

I challenge the honesty of all who stand by the statement that Stan Van Gundy has shown to be "a great coach" for the Pistons, since he's been in Detroit. As quickly as the game changes, what he did in Miami and Orlando, long ago, doesn't apply today; he used to be a great coach, but the game has passed him by, is closer to the truth IMHO. - This is 100% correct! SVG's 1 in 4 out offense was ahead of it's time(for a team, anybody remember Downtown Freddy Brown?) and ushered in an era of massive 3 point shooting. However, that offense was great because it fit the players he had. Great size and great 3 point shooting and a center, while offensively limited, was a monster defender. He has neither here, but we do have good skills. Unfortunately, even though he stumbled on how to use this team last year, he wasn't smart enough to believe in it!

As Don has pointed out on several occasions, he b!tches the players out on the bench, all while ignoring the perpetrators of ill-play on the floor; he bullies players about their lack of defense, to accept not playing, but his main two players are some of the worse defenders in the entire league (given their stature and physical gifts) and there's not one word said publicly or ever any benching for lack of defense. What do you call that? - Whatever you call it, it ain't good! Look people can complain that KCP wanted too much money, but there's no logic in using a player for the max minutes every season, playing him against the other teams best scorers, and then not wanting to pay him less that those that don't work as hard and mop around the floor... bad messages!

Flexible? Wise has pointed out many times that SVG doesn't coach to his players skills, but to the skillsets of players who've long retired from the NBA. Case in point, that 1 in 4 out is ridiculous, for this teams makeup of talent, to continuously run and the best we can hope for is an 8th seed. Why do you think he's been calling for tearing down and rebuilding a team of 24-25 year olds? He's not crazy, he just realizes SVG is too set in his ways to change, so change the team...the owner seems to wimpy to make a meaningful change on the administrative level, so why not? - Looking at the payroll you'd think we were contending, but in fact the size of the payroll damn near forces you to rebuild from scratch, just to clear out the suckers.

BallinD has been all over SVG's lack of awareness, both in game management and personnel deployment, but for the most part, only a few of us have appreciated what he's been trying to tell us...SVG has to go! - We'll do just good enough this season for him to keep his job, but it'll be fools gold unless he learns his team and gets rid of the over paid on the roster.

Murph, Lemonpen, Oracle , Sparma, and others who don't participate on the forum as much, have questioned just how conscientious SVG is when it comes to restoring the Pistons to their competitive greatness. We've talked about player shortcomings, but the elephant in the room is, Stan Van Gundy is ill-equipped to lead this franchise as both president and coach; IMHO with his over spending on player talent, he's a piss poor president, and with player development, offensive/defensive schemes and the construction of his coaching staff, he's not the coach for the downtown Detroit Pistons. Training camp starts Tuesday and we will all see just what we've got...I hope I'm wrong and have my foot in my mouth, but I doubt it.   - We'll get a bunch of fluff stories out of training camp, similar to the BS articles we've been getting, but once the preseason games start, we'll be able to focus our own optics on the product.

[deusXango]

"Bobby Knight was brilliant in a lot of ways. So there was some real foundation in terms of knowing and coaching the game. But he was a bully, so..."

"I think being a bully doesn't work today, or at least it doesn't work in coaching,' Kerr continued. The modern coach has to be much more communicative, flexible, aware, conscientious, all those things."-Steve Kerr

I challenge the honesty of all who stand by the statement that Stan Van Gundy has shown to be "a great coach" for the Pistons, since he's been in Detroit. As quickly as the game changes, what he did in Miami and Orlando, long ago, doesn't apply today; he used to be a great coach, but the game has passed him by, is closer to the truth IMHO.

As Don has pointed out on several occasions, he b!tches the players out on the bench, all while ignoring the perpetrators of ill-play on the floor; he bullies players about their lack of defense, to accept not playing, but his main two players are some of the worse defenders in the entire league (given their stature and physical gifts) and there's not one word said publicly or ever any benching for lack of defense. What do you call that?

Flexible? Wise has pointed out many times that SVG doesn't coach to his players skills, but to the skillsets of players who've long retired from the NBA. Case in point, that 1 in 4 out is ridiculous, for this teams makeup of talent, to continuously run and the best we can hope for is an 8th seed. Why do you think he's been calling for tearing down and rebuilding a team of 24-25 year olds? He's not crazy, he just realizes SVG is too set in his ways to change, so change the team...the owner seems to wimpy to make a meaningful change on the administrative level, so why not?

BallinD has been all over SVG's lack of awareness, both in game management and personnel deployment, but for the most part, only a few of us have appreciated what he's been trying to tell us...SVG has to go!

Murph, Lemonpen, Oracle , Sparma, and others who don't participate on the forum as much, have questioned just how conscientious SVG is when it comes to restoring the Pistons to their competitive greatness. We've talked about player shortcomings, but the elephant in the room is, Stan Van Gundy is ill-equipped to lead this franchise as both president and coach; IMHO with his over spending on player talent, he's a piss poor president, and with player development, offensive/defensive schemes and the construction of his coaching staff, he's not the coach for the downtown Detroit Pistons. Training camp starts Tuesday and we will all see just what we've got...I hope I'm wrong and have my foot in my mouth, but I doubt it.

[Sponsored content]