Sebastian

[Sparma]

I can see I need to brush up on my numerology skills. Thanks for the help.

[Sebastian]

Sparma ... I, gotta disagree with on this one, Dinwiddie had to be moved because he was holding the #8 hostage. Reggie or Stanley will be wearing the #8, next season and the other will wear the #9.

[Oracle]

A few days before the draft my opinion (worth about 1 bitcoin $750 today)  is leaning towards swinging for the fences...
1) Trade up for Davis
2)Go for Skal
3) Reach for Maker
At this time it would make more sense to use our FA $'s on a PG that has shown that he can run an NBA team... we can survive at PF until our project grows into his role... a gamble worth taking.. we are not beating the Cavs next year.

Merc, I'm firmly in the swing for the fences mindset with you!

The draft is a crap shoot, and at 18, we're nearing miracle needed territory if you're looking for a star.

I like Maker as a full swing, where you either strike out or hit a grand slam! IMO, the kid could be either, it's hard to tell, but he does have superstar athletics if it gets developed properly, and that would be a game changer next to Drummond!

BTW: Happy Fathers Day to the Dads on the Forum!

[Sparma]

Nice collection of thoughts, Stones. I'd heard Dinwiddie would be waived too and that they're doing him a favor. When I watched Stache the season before last, he looked liked a promising, team-oriented, PG, but I wondered if he could play at full NBA speed. Last season, I gather his shooting gave him more fits.

Having watched a tiny bit of Bairstow, I agree he could make the team, albeit deep on the roster. He's a big guy who can shoot, not the worst kind of guy to bury on your roster. I gather the Pistons will wait and see what unfolds. It's a little puzzling to me they didn't wait and see with Dinwiddie, because they definitely need a 3rd PG, which he could be. I know SVG put some pressure on him to demonstrate he could be second string, but that's puzzling too because a solid #3 PG still has some value in the league. Maybe they figure they can pick up a more valuable veteran passer and shooter off the street, or out of China, a la John Lucas, but I wouldn't count on it.

Interesting point that Baynes may have given a rec.

I like Dinwiddie's upside more than Bairstow's.

My (random) thoughts:

1.  Stache was going to be waived so may as well help your rep by getting someone you care for to his next destination.  Otherwise he may have been lost in the noise of signings.  It is obvious we are restocking our 2nd and 3rd string PGs.  

2.  Needed a PF that could make the team for depth.  Anything more than a waive is gravy.

3.  May be filler into another trade.  

4.  May end up taking Anthony's place as 3rd center at a cheaper price.  (I saw somewhere he was 6'6" and PF/C.  With Dre and Baynes we rarely used Anthony.  Why resign him?

5.  I still want to know if Aron Baynes knows him from Down Under and recommended the deal.  

6.  He may be just a future waive.

7.  Dream:  SVG's scouts see someone who has been buried behind Pau, Mirotic, Gibson and the large curly top guy and see him as a hidden gem.

Other thoughts?  

[merc]

A few days before the draft my opinion (worth about 1 bitcoin $750 today) is leaning towards swinging for the fences...
1) Trade up for Davis
2)Go for Skal
3) Reach for Maker
At this time it would make more sense to use our FA $'s on a PG that has shown that he can run an NBA team... we can survive at PF until our project grows into his role... a gamble worth taking.. we are not beating the Cavs next year.

[Go Stones!]

My (random) thoughts:

1. Stache was going to be waived so may as well help your rep by getting someone you care for to his next destination. Otherwise he may have been lost in the noise of signings. It is obvious we are restocking our 2nd and 3rd string PGs.

2. Needed a PF that could make the team for depth. Anything more than a waive is gravy.

3. May be filler into another trade.

4. May end up taking Anthony's place as 3rd center at a cheaper price. (I saw somewhere he was 6'6" and PF/C. With Dre and Baynes we rarely used Anthony. Why resign him?

5. I still want to know if Aron Baynes knows him from Down Under and recommended the deal.

6. He may be just a future waive.

7. Dream: SVG's scouts see someone who has been buried behind Pau, Mirotic, Gibson and the large curly top guy and see him as a hidden gem.

Other thoughts?

[cool breeze]

[quote="cool breeze"]

Don if you think the finals are fixed... you're partially right.

Fixed is a bit strong, but they're absolutely steering the outcome to get 7 games! It started when GS went up 3-1, LeBron started getting more NO CALLS, which allowed him to build momentum and confidence.

It immediately rubbed off on the rest of the team, helping Irving get going and Love to do better.

That's not to take anything away from LeBron, who is playing amazing ball, but he doesn't need their help to do that!

LeBron gets called for net to nothing and Curry gets called for every tickey tack foul in the book.

Having said all of this, I believe they will call a fair game in game 7, but GS is really up against it. No Bogut, which allowed Tristan to get off early round the rim, and a limited Iggy means that LeBron will be running free.

The sleeper has awoken, and I have no idea who will win now, but it's clearly advantage Cleveland.

BTW, this is just a feeling, but IMO, I think the NBA wants to see Cleveland get their title!

Dinwiddie: I don't like the move of trading a truly serviceable player within the division for a totally unserviceable player. Dinwiddie has proved that he's capable of putting up big numbers against NBA competition, this gump they traded for has never shown that he can play at this level! just my opinion

Sparma I agree 100% relating to the Dinwiddie trade. I never really thought that he got a fair chance to prove himself. Going back to the games where he started, I thought that he played Dinwiddie style basketball which is not the mindless street ball that has become the norm in the NBA. He had size and has always been a good defender. His passing skills looked much superior to Jackson. His court vision is good and his basketball IQ is really high. He didn't push the basketball at super sonic speed

Of course there is more to the story than we know. Could be that Spencer's ACL injury is still an issue. Damn I thought Stan Van Gundy had hit it out of the park when he drafted Dinwiddie. He was one of the guys that I have pulled for to have good luck in the world of basketball. I wish him well and hope a change will bring good fortune.

Oracle it was you who wrote this post sorry for the mix up. I just lost our fantastic dog of a lifetime today and am not myself right now. Thought basketball would get me off my misery. Best regards.

[cool breeze]

[quote="Oracle"]Don if you think the finals are fixed... you're partially right.

Fixed is a bit strong, but they're absolutely steering the outcome to get 7 games! It started when GS went up 3-1, LeBron started getting more NO CALLS, which allowed him to build momentum and confidence.

It immediately rubbed off on the rest of the team, helping Irving get going and Love to do better.

That's not to take anything away from LeBron, who is playing amazing ball, but he doesn't need their help to do that!

LeBron gets called for net to nothing and Curry gets called for every tickey tack foul in the book.

Having said all of this, I believe they will call a fair game in game 7, but GS is really up against it. No Bogut, which allowed Tristan to get off early round the rim, and a limited Iggy means that LeBron will be running free.

The sleeper has awoken, and I have no idea who will win now, but it's clearly advantage Cleveland.

BTW, this is just a feeling, but IMO, I think the NBA wants to see Cleveland get their title!

Dinwiddie: I don't like the move of trading a truly serviceable player within the division for a totally unserviceable player. Dinwiddie has proved that he's capable of putting up big numbers against NBA competition, this gump they traded for has never shown that he can play at this level! just my opinion

Sparma I agree 100% relating to the Dinwiddie trade. I never really thought that he got a fair chance to prove himself. Going back to the games where he started, I thought that he played Dinwiddie style basketball which is not the mindless street ball that has become the norm in the NBA. He had size and has always been a good defender. His passing skills looked much superior to Jackson. His court vision is good and his basketball IQ is really high. He didn't push the basketball at super sonic speed

Of course there is more to the story than we know. Could be that Spencer's ACL injury is still an issue. Damn I thought Stan Van Gundy had hit it out of the park when he drafted Dinwiddie. He was one of the guys that I have pulled for to have good luck in the world of basketball. I wish him well and hope a change will bring good fortune.

[Sparma]

Watched a couple of 55 second videos on the guy, one of him scoring 11 against the Timberwolves, another playing a game of HORSE.  Looks like he can shoot.

I always like Dinwiddie and think he still could make it as a back up PG.

[Oracle]

Apparently they've changed his name from Cameron Bairstow to Cap Relief!

Looks like he'll be waived pretty soon!

[Oracle]

Don if you think the finals are fixed... you're partially right.

Fixed is a bit strong, but they're absolutely steering the outcome to get 7 games! It started when GS went up 3-1, LeBron started getting more NO CALLS, which allowed him to build momentum and confidence.

It immediately rubbed off on the rest of the team, helping Irving get going and Love to do better.

That's not to take anything away from LeBron, who is playing amazing ball, but he doesn't need their help to do that!

LeBron gets called for net to nothing and Curry gets called for every tickey tack foul in the book.

Having said all of this, I believe they will call a fair game in game 7, but GS is really up against it. No Bogut, which allowed Tristan to get off early round the rim, and a limited Iggy means that LeBron will be running free.

The sleeper has awoken, and I have no idea who will win now, but it's clearly advantage Cleveland.

BTW, this is just a feeling, but IMO, I think the NBA wants to see Cleveland get their title!

Dinwiddie: I don't like the move of trading a truly serviceable player within the division for a totally unserviceable player. Dinwiddie has proved that he's capable of putting up big numbers against NBA competition, this gump they traded for has never shown that he can play at this level! just my opinion!

[cool breeze]

James is hitting his outside shots. Golden State has two players who are injured including their starting center and Iggi the MVP of last year's Finals. So why do non Cleveland fans feel that the NBA Front office has orchestrated this Finals?

The bogus suspension of Green will never sit well by fans who follow the NBA. That has now potentially changed the outcome of the entire series and who will become this year's winner.

The way the series has been called by officials. This is my biggest complaint which is the same complaint that I had relating to how every other playoff series was called by the NBA officials this season involving Cleveland. It was always the five cleveland players and the 3 refs against all of their opponents. This playoff season has played out much like the playoff years when Labron played for Miami. Labron James has huge powerful arms. It is impossible to stop him if the refs do not call fouls on James when he drives to the rim and uses his off arm. It should be embarrassing for any ref to ignore how he uses his off arm and never receives a foul. And then of course whenever James drives and rams into an opposing player who has set up beyond the dotted line, the officials seldom get the call right. With that said, Labron James is a great man and a great basketball player and leader. He gave an outstanding post game interview last night too. My other complaint is the way T. Thompson is getting away with murder in the paint. He is actually throwing opposing players down on the weak side. Why not do it if nobody appears to see what he is doing?

The NBA Front office has created a lot of drama and excitement this year. Give them credit for creating basketball entertainment. Is PT Barnum still alive and providing advice for our pointed shoe NBA Front office leaders?

With several Eastern Conference teams potentially losing rotation players, it appears that Cleveland will have another cake walk to the Finals next season. But to make sure there are no close games, I believe Cleveland might land another free agent to make sure no team in the Eastern conference wins a game. Who cares about their payroll? Maybe Joe Dumars won't like it. Dumars made it tough for the Pistons to repeat when he decided Mike James was asking for too much money. Who needed him anyway? I think back to that trade when Rasheed came to the Pistons. The real steal was Mike James in my opinion. He was an outstanding defender in that championship season and he hit some big shots. What a sad day that was when it was announced that L. Hunter, Joe's close friend would be replacing the greedy Mike James. Joe kept the payroll down again but to his surprise, didn't repeat as the executive of the year.

[cool breeze]

[quote="WTF"]Love is Love, Hate is Hate and no matter how much we try dressing it up it is easily identifiable in the compassion we show to others or from the lack of it.   Please forgive my ranting and for being off topic but I've been tossing and turning unable to sleep in part because my freaking tooth is bothering me and because I've been banging my head against the walls trying to figure out WTF is going on.

Alligators Agree or disagree but if there's a Sign that say's no swimming, stay out of the water there's no debating the validity of the message it's conveying just keep your ass out of the water.  The parents that allowed this 2 year old in the water needs to be locked up.  What was this father doing that he did not see the signs or the big ass alligator coming towards his child. I can see this **** turning into a debate about what Disney could have done  or didn't do to avoid something like this happening and perhaps this is true maybe bigger signs or posting security or doing daily gator roundups but the blame and cause is this irresponsible parent.  I could have been in a 1 foot deep pool in my own yard and I'm not taking my eyes off of my child.  

Gorillas Agree or disagree PETA is retarded, that mother is a clown and the Zoo shares blame.   I get so sick and tired of parents saying that they turn their head for just a second only for tragedy to follow.  I don't know what really happened and I've heard various version of what did or may not have happen but like the father this mother was negligent with their parenting.  It is obvious the zoo needing better preventive measure in place only because they have to account for the idiot drunk that might climb in cage, jump a fence.  They have to account for dumb parents that don't keep an eye on their children. As for these PETA clowns please give it a rest.  No one is for animal cruelty but **** happens and this **** just happen to happen so the gorilla was put down in fear of the child safety.  What bothers me with some of you mutha-f****kers is on any given evening you're eating a freaking burger so just calm the f****k down

Trump   Agree or disagree and I could probably write a page here but I won't.  Seriously People????? You're all Kidding?  I want to kick my TV every time I see this clown, hear this clown speak.  Hell I almost want to shoot myself.  SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!

Chicago Memorial Day Weekend 69 shootings,  Orlando, the day after five more people gun down somewhere else.  Then you have another clown in LA on his way to a Pride event loaded down with gun and explosive.

Why do we sell hate?, why do we sell racism? why do we promote greed? why do we promote selfishness?  It's just seem like we're in a race to end this world.  

Okay I'm done going to bed [/quote

WTF I am glad that you are paying attention to Chicago which has been the most corrupt city in the nation for a long time. Why is it that so many crazy political things happen in Chicago where convicted domestic terrorists can easily get jobs in ILL. best colleges (Bernadine Dorn and Bill Ayers etc) The only reason why Ayers is not serving a life sentence is the fact that a Marist judge threw out the FBI wire taps.

So why is hate flourishing? Who is behind it? The answer is our elite political class both conservative republican and leftist democrats have to be behind it because their handlers are running the system. We have wild a crazy man as the candidate for the highest office on the republican side and the corrupt Hillary Clinton for the democrats. Hillary, the former damage control hard nose enforcer who threatened all the women her husband had sex with to keep their mouths shut or else, is now the person carrying the torch for all American women.The Clinton Foundation gets money from Arab countries that enforce laws that treat women like dogs. Yet so many women love her because she is in their party and the party has become a religion. What was wrong with the extremely smart and talented Condi Rice when she was Sec. or State? She was a moderate rational person who never wanted to hold public office and she is African American.Rice is a good example of someone who is honest and smart who is the opposite of Hillary Clinton. One who could have run this time around but is not willing to compromise her values. Hillary is dying to get the POWER. But how will she possibly win this election when she was clearly seen riding in the lead jeep in Cairo Egypt with the leaders of the Islamic Brotherhood? This group was so extreme that even the Egyptians had to remove Clinton's choice of leader for Egypt even after our government spent 100s of millions of our tax payer money to get the islamic Brotherhood in control of that country. Did the Egypian women want to live under the severe rules in place for Women with the Islamic Brotherhood in charge? So for all the women out there who vote for Hillary, how does that play out for you? I thought American women wanted to be in charge of men. Look up the manifesto of the Islamic Brotherhood and you will see that when this organization was created that one of their biggest goals was to destroy the USA and all the devils that live in our country. How can we trust either political party. They bank on all of us voting blindly and they really do know that most Americans have short memories. Why was it that Bill Clinton didn't resign after being caught lying under oath several times. He was disbarred in his home State but one of my closest friends thinks he is great and should be able to use his office to get free sex because he earned that right when he became the most powerful man in the world.

My thought to correct our current political failings is to make all members of Congress and the President take polygraph exams like other Fed. employees who hold law enforcement positions. The political elite make the rules but would''t it be great to get a former Navy Seal in as President regardless of the party? They like some people in other professions have been tested in every way possible especially mental stability testing and they can make critical hard decisions in tough high pressure moments. If you read the released e-mails that Hillary says everyone is tired of talking about, then you will see that in real life as Sec. of State she missed important briefings because she slept in to around 11 AM. Kind of like Hitler sleeping during the D Day Invasion isn't it?

We get the people in elected positions who are owned by corrupted rich international folks that could care less about our country. Those people own most of the media and can stir the pot of hate whenever they want. As I go through my normal day, I do not encounter or see any racial problems and I am involved with many people who come from different backgrounds and have various color of skin. Who is driving this hate? Our political leaders who win elections trying to get one group to hate the other is the answer. They have placed us all in groups so we can be controlled. Yet our country was based on individualism. Even in the hard times of the great depression, African Americans rejected the Soviet Union's attempt to infiltrate and gain acceptance of the one class system loved by all Marxists. African Americans were getting a real raw deal in those days but strong families still held out that the future could still be bright in a country where the individual could stand alone and some day the Bill of Rights would protect them from their own government. With that possibility there might be a chance for upward mobility. Under socialism, Fascism or communism there is no chance of that happening unless you are one of the leaders of the one class system. But there is sucker born every minute and we are all the fools to have the choice of the two clowns that are running for this Presidential election.

Now I hope this game tonight is a great basketball game.

[WTF]

Love is Love, Hate is Hate and no matter how much we try dressing it up it is easily identifiable in the compassion we show to others or from the lack of it. Please forgive my ranting and for being off topic but I've been tossing and turning unable to sleep in part because my freaking tooth is bothering me and because I've been banging my head against the walls trying to figure out WTF is going on.

Alligators Agree or disagree but if there's a Sign that say's no swimming, stay out of the water there's no debating the validity of the message it's conveying just keep your ass out of the water. The parents that allowed this 2 year old in the water needs to be locked up. What was this father doing that he did not see the signs or the big ass alligator coming towards his child. I can see this **** turning into a debate about what Disney could have done or didn't do to avoid something like this happening and perhaps this is true maybe bigger signs or posting security or doing daily gator roundups but the blame and cause is this irresponsible parent. I could have been in a 1 foot deep pool in my own yard and I'm not taking my eyes off of my child.

Gorillas Agree or disagree PETA is retarded, that mother is a clown and the Zoo shares blame. I get so sick and tired of parents saying that they turn their head for just a second only for tragedy to follow. I don't know what really happened and I've heard various version of what did or may not have happen but like the father this mother was negligent with their parenting. It is obvious the zoo needing better preventive measure in place only because they have to account for the idiot drunk that might climb in cage, jump a fence. They have to account for dumb parents that don't keep an eye on their children. As for these PETA clowns please give it a rest. No one is for animal cruelty but **** happens and this **** just happen to happen so the gorilla was put down in fear of the child safety. What bothers me with some of you mutha-f****kers is on any given evening you're eating a freaking burger so just calm the f****k down

Trump Agree or disagree and I could probably write a page here but I won't. Seriously People????? You're all Kidding? I want to kick my TV every time I see this clown, hear this clown speak. Hell I almost want to shoot myself. SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!!!

Chicago Memorial Day Weekend 69 shootings, Orlando, the day after five more people gun down somewhere else. Then you have another clown in LA on his way to a Pride event loaded down with gun and explosive.

Why do we sell hate?, why do we sell racism? why do we promote greed? why do we promote selfishness? It's just seem like we're in a race to end this world.

Okay I'm done going to bed

[cool breeze]

Good Walton story.  

Fewer teams is probably a good idea.  How many would be ideal?  Maybe 24?  Won't happen though, for money reasons.

The change I've some hope for would be fewer games.  I guess the '16 champions will play a round more, as many as 7 games more, than the old Celtics.  

Didn't watch the games last season but did watch most of them the preceding season.  Lots of meaningless games which aren't played with a ton of energy.  

Twenty-four team league would be a huge improvement. It is doubtful that anything will change relating to the number of games due to contracts with the networks.

Just looking back to those seasons when our starting big men were Jason Maxiell and Greg Monroe is on point for a team that didn't belong in the NBA. Media had to try to make something out of nothing. All the blame for failure was directed to Brandon Knight when he was such a young kid. No chance of running a pick and roll play and no ability to defend or rebound in the paint. Toss in Austin Daye and will Bynum with aging small forwards and one has to wonder how the Pistons sold one season ticket.

We still lack a power forward or center who can defend with average ability. Maybe that will change by next fall.

[Sparma]

Good Walton story.

Fewer teams is probably a good idea. How many would be ideal? Maybe 24? Won't happen though, for money reasons.

The change I've some hope for would be fewer games. I guess the '16 champions will play a round more, as many as 7 games more, than the old Celtics.

Didn't watch the games last season but did watch most of them the preceding season. Lots of meaningless games which aren't played with a ton of energy.

[cool breeze]

Cool: "Who doesn't agree that kids should not stay in college for at least 2 years."

Well....

The issue isn't really whether we think it's advisable to stay in college two years, but rather about what's allowable to players.

Should the Tigers' first pick, a high schooler, go to college for two years?  Probably so.  Why don't folks go after that issue?  Or soccer, hockey, tennis, or auto racing?  Maybe because it's deemed a lost cause given the rules in those sports?  Or is it we understand that 18 year old kids should be given options?  Also, maybe part of the lack of worry comes from realizing that a player can return to college, often with a few years, perhaps with a scholarship paid by a team.  Also, sometimes two years in college (particularly if it's not leading to a degree) doesn't compare in value to a professional contract and the financial opportunities that come with being a pro.

If memory serves, you've referred several times to the experience of Brandon Jennings going overseas rather than to college, Cool.  The NBA can't really force people to go to college.  What becomes the point of the prohibition against entering NBA in such cases?  Also, there are plenty of overseas kids who are professional for a while before becoming eligible for the NBA draft.  That doesn't work out so well at times (Darko), but the NBA can't prevent that avenue, rendering their rule less than straightforward in its intention.

The best argument for the NBA rule regarding eligibility, I think, is that there's a long list of failures of kids entering the NBA directly out of HS.  Of course there are also notable successes straight out of HS, like Kobe, Garnett, and Moses Malone.  Is it the job of the NBA to protect kids against themselves?  In some ways, probably so, although taking on such a responsibility readily invites charges of hypocrisy when self-destructive behaviors are allowed elsewhere.  And it's not an enforceable paternalism when kids can go pro overseas.  

So yes, I do agree that kids should stay in college for a couple of years, generally.  But that doesn't settle the issue of NBA eligibility.  Free choice is a big deal in this country, even when we understand that it can be abused.

Everything you said makes perfect sense Sparma. In reality I don't believe any changes will take place. I just would like basketball leaders to keep making the game of basketball better.

Bill Walton told a personal story in one of his books where a group of fat cat olympic officials visited Walton after his was named most valuable player in the NCAA tournament when he was in his 2nd year of college and first year to be eligible to play varsity. They asked Bill if he wanted to participate on the olympic team. He loved being a student as well as being a college basketball player and informed the committee of bulldogs that he wanted to play but could not travel around the country playing practice games for 3 months because he had goals relating to school but would meet the team 3 weeks before the olympics and give his best effort to win the Gold. They didn't like Bill's attitude and told Bill that wouldn't work for them and made sure they told him that they were in charge so he said OK good luck and left the room with John Wooden's blessing. He hated the way they talked to him as if they were the most important people involved not the players. And Walton had been on a similar team before and knew what bullies those big money guys were like. In the end the USA lost to the Russians and that didn't make Walton feel good. It just made him sad that those people were in charge of things to ruin the fun of playing basketball.

Who is in charge of things today? Will they attempt to make the NBA better? I hope so but it seems that the wrong people have the most impact. All of the decision makers seem to be lawyers.

If the league doesn't impose a rule that incoming players must be a bit older to improve overall quality then the only logical thing to do is to reduce the amount of teams currently playing in the NBA. There are currently only a few really sound NBA teams now. Most small market teams cannot keep their good players. There are too many nights when the fans do not get their money's worth. If money gets tighter, then the entire thing might come crashing down someday. Our Pistons are getting better but do not have enough good players to have a good 8 man rotation. And think about the previous 6 seasons that season ticket holders had to stomach. Those people are true blue fans that should be heard from when the plans for the future are being made.

[Sparma]

Cool: "Who doesn't agree that kids should not stay in college for at least 2 years."

Well....

The issue isn't really whether we think it's advisable to stay in college two years, but rather about what's allowable to players.

Should the Tigers' first pick, a high schooler, go to college for two years?  Probably so.  Why don't folks go after that issue?  Or soccer, hockey, tennis, or auto racing?  Maybe because it's deemed a lost cause given the rules in those sports?  Or is it we understand that 18 year old kids should be given options?  Also, maybe part of the lack of worry comes from realizing that a player can return to college, often with a few years, perhaps with a scholarship paid by a team.  Also, sometimes two years in college (particularly if it's not leading to a degree) doesn't compare in value to a professional contract and the financial opportunities that come with being a pro.

If memory serves, you've referred several times to the experience of Brandon Jennings going overseas rather than to college, Cool.  The NBA can't really force people to go to college.  What becomes the point of the prohibition against entering NBA in such cases?  Also, there are plenty of overseas kids who are professional for a while before becoming eligible for the NBA draft.  That doesn't work out so well at times (Darko), but the NBA can't prevent that avenue, rendering their rule less than straightforward in its intention.

The best argument for the NBA rule regarding eligibility, I think, is that there's a long list of failures of kids entering the NBA directly out of HS.  Of course there are also notable successes straight out of HS, like Kobe, Garnett, and Moses Malone.  Is it the job of the NBA to protect kids against themselves?  In some ways, probably so, although taking on such a responsibility readily invites charges of hypocrisy when self-destructive behaviors are allowed elsewhere.  And it's not an enforceable paternalism when kids can go pro overseas.  

So yes, I do agree that kids should stay in college for a couple of years, generally.  But that doesn't settle the issue of NBA eligibility.  Free choice is a big deal in this country, even when we understand that it can be abused.

[cool breeze]

Who doesn't agree that kids should not stay in college for at least 2 years. That makes so much sense for the player as well as the quality of games in both the NCAA and NBA. And reducing the quantity of games is a no brainer if anyone cares about the fans and players. But the lawyers never do the right thing. They want their fees as agents. Agents now dictate which teams will improve relating to free agent signings. GMs must kiss their asses. Lawyers are now dictating what kind of health care we all get through the Obama Care disaster and they will also continue to screw up the NBA though their greed. Maybe in future years the chosen who are selected to work in the NBA front office will not only have to have passed the bar exam but they also will need to be obese to set another good example for the kids who like basketball.

But it was amazing to me that this article didn't mention the suspension of Green in this last finals game. It is all about the money. I personally am happy to be able to see at least one more game but it is dead wrong from an ethical standpoint. There is no way in hell that Green should have been suspended. No T was called in the situation singled out two days later. Labron should have been given at T at the time when both players were standing and Labron threw his arm out to hit Green. How can any kid who is a Golden State fan accept this nonsense. Pure evil in my opinion but what is new?

[cool breeze]

My bet is that this Piston management team is superior and will come up with some real good decisions that will make us all real happy. What will they do relating to the power forward situation? Who will be the new guard? Will one or two Piston players leave in a trade? What will management do to solve the team problem created by Andre Drummond's inability to defend consistently well or shoot a reasonable percentage at the free throw line? Now we have specific issues that need to be solved instead of wholesale change at least. But for sure the Pistons need to secure better players to fill out the playing rotation. One thing we know for sure is that there will be no change in coaches this season. Players will need to be all in with the wishes of the coaching staff. How refreshing!

[cool breeze]

In these types of discussions, it's important to stick to the exact comparison, rather than broaden it to a wider subject which was not the point of the discussion.

Taking the advice of a very thoughtful and smart fellow poster

But comparisons across time are tricky and demand clarity about just what's being compared.

1. I was not talking about the NBA in general and all of the points you rightly make, have nothing to do with the post.
2. The discussion was about the Warriors, not LeBron, not Westbrook, none of these guys.

So let's evaluate what you're saying, by looking at the Warriors.

1. There's NOBODY on the Warriors that's particularly such a physical specimen that would intimidate anyone in basketball history.
2. Who on the Warriors is so athletically gifted that at any time in NBA history they would be considered superior?

There is no getting around the fact that today's top players are in better physical condition(note: they still play 48 minutes, so I'm not sure how this matters), are more athletic, and have grown up playing tougher competition before they get to the NBA. I recently watched some old film of Jordan's Bulls when they were in their prime. They were perhaps the only NBA team that would throw in the full court press for an entire game. And when I watched them in their press and the opponent trying to break their press, it was clear that the opposing players could never make an NBA team today.

Bogut is as slow as anybody I've ever seen!
Green is small and not athletic or fast in anybody's book
Curry is a great shooter, but is only a little above average athletically
Thompson is like Curry, only less athletically gifted, and neither are speed demons

They lack size, speed and athletic ability! Where is all of this special 2010's talent you speak of?

It doesn't exist, and GS is the biggest beneficiary of the rules of any team in the NBA. With 80's rules, they'd have a lot of trouble getting off shots and finishing games with the way they could hit back them.

They aren't physically imposing enough to handle any of the 80's super teams... unless they played with todays rules.

So while I agree that we have some athletes that would totally dominate during that era, they also happen to be the ones that can't seem to win against a team that's average at best in every aspect of the game except shooting. What the Warriors do have is 80's like mental toughness, which is more important than a lot of what you cite.

IMO, I still believe the Warriors would be swept, but you could be right that it would be competitive. All I'm saying here is that the reasons you gave provide insufficient evidence to show a good reason as to why that would be the case.

Great post! Individually this Golden State team might look inferior but when all the players in the rotation are playing like they have done this entire season and most of last season, they would be difficult to beat in any era. I am just not buying into the theory that playing under the current rules really changes anything relating to who wins these championships. I think all of the Western conference playoff games were extremely physical. I this finals JR Smith is poking opposing players stomachs every time he gets near an opposing shooter. Meanwhile, he seldom gets called for a foul. In this last game, he did it about 20 times and got called once. You are so correct that it is impossible to compare teams from other periods of history. However, one thing appears clear with all the champions. TEAM CHEMISTRY is an amazing thing. I any of you have had the privilege to play or coach a team that HAD THAT SPECIAL RARE QUALITY then you know what I am talking about. The beauty of being involved on one of those special teams that have superior team chemistry is how unselfish everyone is to make that happen. Egos disappear because it is so much fun to win. That was the difference between the old Celtic championship teams compared to the Lakers who could seldom beat Boston. Jerry West speaks of this in his book where his Lakers team just didn't have the great chemistry.

The lawyers in the NBA front office have once again entered into what many believe is a conspiracy to tweak the outcome of the championship series. This decision to ban Green (the key chemistry player on the Warriors) from this last game has put a damper on the reputation of the entire league. The politically correct crowd can do what they want but the real people will never accept their bull crap. Cleveland played a great game but who believes in the honesty of the leaders in the Front Office? Cleveland most likely would have won this game with Green playing but who knows when we think about the impact of team chemistry and removing one key guy who creates the great chemistry.

We Piston fans of old can never forgive or forget David Stern for his creation of the negative label he put on the Bad Boys and Bill Laimbeer. It was Laimbeer who was the guy who was fundamentally sound and played that way against Robert Parrish in those great games boxing him out for rebounds. In response, Parrish takes a punk swing hitting Laimbeer in the head from behind and the announcers tell the fans that he was justified. Was Larry Bird a saint or did he play dirty most of the time? Laimbeer would have been suspended for the entire series if he had committed such a cowardly cheap shot that Parish did against Bill. That is what makes the Bad Boys so special. They overcame the politically correct crowd and beat them and their opponents. Our Pistons laughed at the spin doctors in the NBA front office. The politically correct masters of spin all have a legal background and are the true evil souls in our society. To them there is no right or wrong but only what they decide is right for everyone but themselves. The legal spin doctors have now infected this championship series. They must be in charge. They must be the most important entity even though they are soft and weak individuals who do not play the game. Cleveland and Labron James must win the title. The NBA Front Office must must provide rigid control to govern the masses (players) as they see fit. We must have a one class society with a God like ruling class who can decide the fate of any group they don't like. Is this the Soviet Union of old or America the land of the free? There should be a real outcry against the NBA Front office leadership and remove the current God. This God has decided that there must be 7 games in this Finals series. So be it. God has spoken. But now the series is a little less interesting.

[Oracle]

"Pistons shooting guard Kentavious Caldwell-Pope was married over the weekend in Georgia. Coach Stan Van Gundy and teammates Jackson and Drummond were in attendance. Ex-Piston Josh Smith was in the wedding party." - Freep

I wonder if Josh threw a brick at them instead of rice

[Oracle]

In these types of discussions, it's important to stick to the exact comparison, rather than broaden it to a wider subject which was not the point of the discussion.

Taking the advice of a very thoughtful and smart fellow poster

But comparisons across time are tricky and demand clarity about just what's being compared.

1. I was not talking about the NBA in general and all of the points you rightly make, have nothing to do with the post.
2. The discussion was about the Warriors, not LeBron, not Westbrook, none of these guys.

So let's evaluate what you're saying, by looking at the Warriors.

1. There's NOBODY on the Warriors that's particularly such a physical specimen that would intimidate anyone in basketball history.
2. Who on the Warriors is so athletically gifted that at any time in NBA history they would be considered superior?

There is no getting around the fact that today's top players are in better physical condition(note: they still play 48 minutes, so I'm not sure how this matters), are more athletic, and have grown up playing tougher competition before they get to the NBA. I recently watched some old film of Jordan's Bulls when they were in their prime. They were perhaps the only NBA team that would throw in the full court press for an entire game. And when I watched them in their press and the opponent trying to break their press, it was clear that the opposing players could never make an NBA team today.

Bogut is as slow as anybody I've ever seen!
Green is small and not athletic or fast in anybody's book
Curry is a great shooter, but is only a little above average athletically
Thompson is like Curry, only less athletically gifted, and neither are speed demons

They lack size, speed and athletic ability! Where is all of this special 2010's talent you speak of?

It doesn't exist, and GS is the biggest beneficiary of the rules of any team in the NBA. With 80's rules, they'd have a lot of trouble getting off shots and finishing games with the way they could hit back them.

They aren't physically imposing enough to handle any of the 80's super teams... unless they played with todays rules.

So while I agree that we have some athletes that would totally dominate during that era, they also happen to be the ones that can't seem to win against a team that's average at best in every aspect of the game except shooting. What the Warriors do have is 80's like mental toughness, which is more important than a lot of what you cite.

IMO, I still believe the Warriors would be swept, but you could be right that it would be competitive. All I'm saying here is that the reasons you gave provide insufficient evidence to show a good reason as to why that would be the case.

[cool breeze]

The winner is determined by the terrain!

In a battle between the Warriors and the Bad Boys, or Jordan's Bulls, or Bird's Celtics would be determined by the rules!

With today's rules, it would be competitive, but advantage GS!

With 80's rules, it's likely a sweep over these Warriors, who, IMO, would be ground into the dust.

I respect what you are saying Oracle but disagree and don't buy into the theory that Golden State wouldn't kick ass and take names of most of the former champs including the Pistons. There is no getting around the fact that today's top players are in better physical condition, are more athletic, and have grown up playing tougher competition before they get to the NBA. I recently watched some old film of Jordan's Bulls when they were in their prime. They were perhaps the only NBA team that would throw in the full court press for an entire game. And when I watched them in their press and the opponent trying to break their press, it was clear that the opposing players could never make an NBA team today. We could go way back to the days of George Yardley where there were only a few NBA teams and they would really beat each other up. But could they keep up with the players today especially the size and athletic ability of the small forwards, power forwards and centers. Would Wilt score at will against today's players? I think not. Could Wilt run the floor and keep up with some of the young big men in today's game? And then let's take Curry. Do you really believe that curry wouldn't be just as successful against the players from the past? His foot work is amazing and even if hand checking was allowed, his quick release and awareness is just off the charts. We are seeing one of a kind in Curry. And what about Green. He reminds me of a smarter Dennis Rodman who can shoot and do everything. Finally, what about Labron James. Who could stop Labron in the old days of Billy Paul? How about our former Piston center, Kent Benson? What a joke that guy was. I used to take my high school players to the Silver Dome where we would get seats right under the basket. I would tell my players to watch Kent Benson and make sure that they didn't play like him. Kent never tried to box out and just faked playing the game of basketball on most nights. The real truth relating to the older teams in the NBA was that there were only a few real basketball players on each team. Most of the big men really sucked so those few who did play hard and had some real talent usually played against what i used to call a dummy defense.

I believe that today's stars are incredible. Durant, James, Curry, Wade and countless other NBA stars of today are in a new world where they have experts in every area relating to nutrition, training technology etc. The impact of the college game of today is a huge factor in the creation of the current NBA player of today. All of the good college basketball programs now have implemented systems that make players stronger, faster, more disciplined, etc. The small kids now start going to basketball camps when they are really small. Thousands more young kids are playing the game now than in the past. This game is only going to get better Oracle regardless of the rules. Now SVG go out and get us a D. Green.

[Sparma]

Excellent point, Oracle.

Beyond that, there are variables in play that make cross-generational comparisons difficult. We know that athletes get bigger, stronger, faster across time. Olympic records establish as much, but so does the eye test. I'm inclined to think this happens fairly quickly. If we could bring past players as they were into the present, I think LeBron would destroy Jordan one on one, Bill Russell couldn't hang with Ben Wallace, and the current Pistons would beat the Bad Boys.

I don't think that means LeBron, Wallace, and the current Pistons are better. Part of what we can do is reflect on relative dominance. Babe Ruth outhomered all other AL teams early on. That makes him better, in a sense than Cabrera, even if time travel would show Babe couldn't handle today's pitching nearly as well as Miggy. And we can't take the titles away from MJ, Russell, and the Bad Boys.

But comparisons across time are tricky and demand clarity about just what's being compared.

The winner is determined by the terrain!

In a battle between the Warriors and the Bad Boys, or Jordan's Bulls, or Bird's Celtics would be determined by the rules!

With today's rules, it would be competitive, but advantage GS!

With 80's rules, it's likely a sweep over these Warriors, who, IMO, would be ground into the dust.

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