Re: FORUM

[cool breeze]

You continue to push Josh based on some past performance, NOT on his performance just last year... explain that! - Oracle


Not really, I do bring up Josh past performance but it only  to debunk the character assassination that Don love to spread.  I look at Josh performance of this past season but I don't draw the same conclusion as many others do. I did recognize his poor shooting percentage but I also recognize all the other things he brought to the table but as I said I was always a Josh fan since the start of his career.  Josh has shot like crap on the perimeter all of his career just like Charlie V couldn't rebound if he was alone on the court but these same to guys use to give the Wallace's a run for their money

I agree that we all can make some initial conclusion about a player and form our on ideas until we get to know different.  What I'm saying about SVG is that he can't draw that conclusion and keep it now that he's part of the organization. It's one thing to form an opinion from a distance and hold on to it now SVG has a responsibility to look at not a single incident but the entirety of Stuckey career.

I wasn't sure I wanted Sheed on the team before we traded for him I thought he would be bad for the team, I thought he had character issues,  I wasn't sure I wanted Rick Mahorn,  I wanted J Kidd instead of Hill,  I wasn't sure about Stackhouse because I formed an opinion of all of these players before they were ever Pistons but once they were here I loved them.  People and ideas change.  

Wisefan even though I believed that Josh Smith was not a good fit for Detroit when he was signed, I was hoping that would be able to pull it together and become the player that he is capable of becoming. But he didn't and instead was a problem that lead to another coach getting fired. We needed a good two way player who had a lot of playing experience and could become a team leader. We were leaderless. I am sure Joe Dumars was hoping for the same thing in Smith. But instead Josh Smith too k the bad shots at the wrong time and missed assignments on defense because he wasn't a good defender of small forwards. Is he a good power forward? There is no question that he is a better power forward than a small forward. But we needed a leader who could at least get Monroe and Drummond on board with him to become a force together. But Smith didn't have that gift. He is a follower. He needs a strong teammate to follow and then Smith could get on board and perhaps play smarter. I think he really didn't give a crap about the team last season knowing that the Pistons had a bad roster to begin with. And if he did think that then he would have been correct in his evaluation of his teammates. It sure wasn't all Josh Smith's fault but after making that bogus trade for Brandon Jennings, it was stupid to sign Josh Smith. The entire blame for Piston failure should not go to Josh Smith but the owners and Joe Dumars. Last season the owners were more hands on. They thought Bynum would explode and become something special. 

Rejoice we now have a smart man in charge in Stan Van Gundy. We don't have to worry about management making more bonehead decisions moving forward. But the damage has been done. I don't believe that it is worth the effort to even spend time thinking about some of last years players. Van Gundy is going to somehow get us on the right track but it is going to take years.

[cool breeze]

1. Stuckey is a point guard by training, but a sg by most other measures! If Stuckey is on my team, I have to be able to play him at point guard, either starting or 1st guard off the bench. So in my world, it's either Bynum or Stuckey, there's only room for one, so if Stuckey can take Bynum money, I say resign him, but he won't(he'll get better offers, he still has skills)!

2. I would agree with Wise that SVG should have a heart to heart with Stuckey, but only if he was still under contract... he isn't! There's no reason to discuss anything with Stuckey beyond item 1, i.e. can we do a 3M/year deal?

3. When you need him most, he won't be there! The dude has a host of physical & mental problems that limit his ability to perform. He's never really recovered from that concussion, and if he's not able to play when you need him, what's the point!

Finally, it's just time to clean house of the bad blood and start fresh! Stuckey is the face of the dark days of Joe's screw up years!

The house of Stuckey led the Pistons from greatness to a laughing stock, and getting rid of him removes the last stench of failure off the books!

Stuckey went from owning Derrick Rose to not only not being able to carry Rose's jock, but smelling like his jock after a fierce workout   

I wish him the best of luck and success because it wasn't all his fault, but I'll be glad to see him go!

100% correct Mr. Oracle. Good post. Now how can we sucker another team to take Bynum?

[Oracle]

1. Stuckey is a point guard by training, but a sg by most other measures! If Stuckey is on my team, I have to be able to play him at point guard, either starting or 1st guard off the bench. So in my world, it's either Bynum or Stuckey, there's only room for one, so if Stuckey can take Bynum money, I say resign him, but he won't(he'll get better offers, he still has skills)!

2. I would agree with Wise that SVG should have a heart to heart with Stuckey, but only if he was still under contract... he isn't! There's no reason to discuss anything with Stuckey beyond item 1, i.e. can we do a 3M/year deal?

3. When you need him most, he won't be there! The dude has a host of physical & mental problems that limit his ability to perform. He's never really recovered from that concussion, and if he's not able to play when you need him, what's the point!

Finally, it's just time to clean house of the bad blood and start fresh! Stuckey is the face of the dark days of Joe's screw up years!

The house of Stuckey led the Pistons from greatness to a laughing stock, and getting rid of him removes the last stench of failure off the books!

Stuckey went from owning Derrick Rose to not only not being able to carry Rose's jock, but smelling like his jock after a fierce workout   

I wish him the best of luck and success because it wasn't all his fault, but I'll be glad to see him go!

[WTF]

You continue to push Josh based on some past performance, NOT on his performance just last year... explain that! - Oracle


Not really, I do bring up Josh past performance but it only to debunk the character assassination that Don love to spread. I look at Josh performance of this past season but I don't draw the same conclusion as many others do. I did recognize his poor shooting percentage but I also recognize all the other things he brought to the table but as I said I was always a Josh fan since the start of his career. Josh has shot like crap on the perimeter all of his career just like Charlie V couldn't rebound if he was alone on the court but these same to guys use to give the Wallace's a run for their money

I agree that we all can make some initial conclusion about a player and form our on ideas until we get to know different. What I'm saying about SVG is that he can't draw that conclusion and keep it now that he's part of the organization. It's one thing to form an opinion from a distance and hold on to it now SVG has a responsibility to look at not a single incident but the entirety of Stuckey career.

I wasn't sure I wanted Sheed on the team before we traded for him I thought he would be bad for the team, I thought he had character issues, I wasn't sure I wanted Rick Mahorn, I wanted J Kidd instead of Hill, I wasn't sure about Stackhouse because I formed an opinion of all of these players before they were ever Pistons but once they were here I loved them. People and ideas change.

[WTF]

SVG does want to keep Monroe, but it appears that he has clear vision on who is a PF and who's a possible tweener!

"The Big Three was someone else's experiment: The Monroe-Andre Drummond-Josh Smith front line isn't the root of all evil, but it appears Van Gundy won't let it hex his team.

Essentially, the coach likes having the trio.

He doesn't like the idea of them playing together. He stopped short of saying someone has to come off the bench, though not much short, saying all three players could average about 32 minutes each, with Drummond at center, Smith at power forward and Monroe splitting time at the two positions." - Stan Van Gundy details Detroit Pistons' plan of action as transition churns ahead

It surely sounds like Monroe coming off the bench with Drummond & Josh starting!

I don't mind this at all, because it leaves SVG concentrating on PG, SG, and SF!

We have the bigs to compete with anybody, but we suck everywhere else, and that's where we need the most help!

So, Wise, we do agree that the problem with the bigs was how they were being used, and I blame Joe more than Cheeks who foolishly wanted to please Joe a bit too much instead of doing the right thing for the team!

Yeah it is but how do SVG convince Moose of splitting time between two position and does this means he come off the bench? How do he sell it to any of them? I don't know. IMO it was always a gimmick line up much in the way of going with a small line up (three guards) It was situational concept that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I think both Moose and Josh can play out of position but only in situational moments.

If Moose is offered a max deal then you start him and Josh if not then maybe you can sway him to come off the bench. Likely some team is going to offer Moose a max deal.

[Oracle]

SVG does want to keep Monroe, but it appears that he has clear vision on who is a PF and who's a possible tweener!

"The Big Three was someone else's experiment: The Monroe-Andre Drummond-Josh Smith front line isn't the root of all evil, but it appears Van Gundy won't let it hex his team.

Essentially, the coach likes having the trio.

He doesn't like the idea of them playing together. He stopped short of saying someone has to come off the bench, though not much short, saying all three players could average about 32 minutes each, with Drummond at center, Smith at power forward and Monroe splitting time at the two positions." - Stan Van Gundy details Detroit Pistons' plan of action as transition churns ahead

It surely sounds like Monroe coming off the bench with Drummond & Josh starting!

I don't mind this at all, because it leaves SVG concentrating on PG, SG, and SF!

We have the bigs to compete with anybody, but we suck everywhere else, and that's where we need the most help!

So, Wise, we do agree that the problem with the bigs was how they were being used, and I blame Joe more than Cheeks who foolishly wanted to please Joe a bit too much instead of doing the right thing for the team!

[Oracle]

Care to read some of your own posts where you've observed players habits and carried that forward into the future to criticize and hate on,... but for SVG it's childish and unprofessional?  Really Oracle?  This is so not true not one time have I every done that when I criticize a player it's all based on a current habits or a continuation of a bad habit.  There's been no consistent pattern of munity with Stuckey or has it? - Does Josh Smith ring a bell?

What would be unprofessional and downright stupid is to observe this behavior and take a chance on a person that exhibited it to that degree! Again if this type of pattern of disruption was something Stuckey showed through his career that's one thing but to hold an incident 3 years ago when he's been nothing but cooperative since against Stuckey IMO is a little unfair and lacks of professionalism.  - I must have confused Stuckey with somebody else that always has coaching problems

Self reflective may be hard for you, but reading your own posts...   Self reflection is a large part of my daily activities, this what makes me wise Sir! - No Comment  

But first it was no evidence of anything on the subject of SVG & Stuckey, then it was SVG not meaning Stuckey, now it's old news that doesn't apply. Wrong again I never said there was no evidence I said I couldn't find any, and then I'm giving due diligence to the comments from 2011 and yes it is old news and it shouldn't be held against him rather you agree with it or not.  - Why are you trying to agree with facts? Either you have a criminal record or you don't, the date may mitigate it some, but 3 years ago and he's a totally changed man? Only you could believe that one!

When will it be that you can accept what's being said and realizing that you were just plain wrong from the start... we see you!

You Blind You Can't See, you need to wear your glasses like Sebastian and me   

Sorry Oracle I have a bigger belief in people especially adults that we don't carry around bad feeling and let them fester.  You used the word hate and at no time did I see the words hate in SVG comments or him specifically pointing out a single player but instead a group of player.  When I read it I didn't get hate what I got was a coach supporting another coach that could have been influenced by his own issue with his team.  But SVG was getting this story the same why we were getting it and he had no first hand knowledge nor was he personally invested in the organization that he could arrive to a conclusion of hatred for any player.  Perhaps he might want to sit down as an adult and talk with Stuckey first before deciding if hating him for some sh!t in 2011   

Now back to back to that first comment of yours.  I challenge you to produce one comment were I drawn a conclusion on a player solely based on a single past behavior and not a current behavior.

Please produce a current comment that say's SVG hates Stuckey and I'll admit that I'm wrong.  

Standard Wise, keep changing the subject in the hope of getting something right!

You continue to push Josh based on some past performance, NOT on his performance just last year... explain that!

Nobody on this board could possibly believe that you haven't, as many of us do, cite the fact that player X is a known ball hog, dribbler out of the shot clock, or fill in the blank problem as a reason to look elsewhere... WE ALL DO IT...

But only you sit there and deny something that we all do that makes 100% total sense!

Your response was as if I was criticizing you for that, it wasn't, it was for calling something that we all do that somehow you've determined is childish and unprofessional!

Like I said, you do this all the time, and get way off the topic as you try to expand it for whatever reason.

The point is simple: Why would SVG even consider Stuckey if ANY other option exists?

You've missed the point completely!

[WTF]

Care to read some of your own posts where you've observed players habits and carried that forward into the future to criticize and hate on,... but for SVG it's childish and unprofessional?  Really Oracle?  This is so not true not one time have I every done that when I criticize a player it's all based on a current habits or a continuation of a bad habit.  There's been no consistent pattern of munity with Stuckey or has it?

What would be unprofessional and downright stupid is to observe this behavior and take a chance on a person that exhibited it to that degree! Again if this type of pattern of disruption was something Stuckey showed through his career that's one thing but to hold an incident 3 years ago when he's been nothing but cooperative since against Stuckey IMO is a little unfair and lacks of professionalism.  

Self reflective may be hard for you, but reading your own posts...   Self reflection is a large part of my daily activities, this what makes me wise Sir!

But first it was no evidence of anything on the subject of SVG & Stuckey, then it was SVG not meaning Stuckey, now it's old news that doesn't apply. Wrong again I never said there was no evidence I said I couldn't find any, and then I'm giving due diligence to the comments from 2011 and yes it is old news and it shouldn't be held against him rather you agree with it or not.  

When will it be that you can accept what's being said and realizing that you were just plain wrong from the start... we see you!

You Blind You Can't See, you need to wear your glasses like Sebastian and me   

Sorry Oracle I have a bigger belief in people especially adults that we don't carry around bad feeling and let them fester.  You used the word hate and at no time did I see the words hate in SVG comments or him specifically pointing out a single player but instead a group of player.  When I read it I didn't get hate what I got was a coach supporting another coach that could have been influenced by his own issue with his team.  But SVG was getting this story the same why we were getting it and he had no first hand knowledge nor was he personally invested in the organization that he could arrive to a conclusion of hatred for any player.  Perhaps he might want to sit down as an adult and talk with Stuckey first before deciding if hating him for some sh!t in 2011   

Now back to back to that first comment of yours.  I challenge you to produce one comment were I drawn a conclusion on a player solely based on a single past behavior and not a current behavior.

Please produce a current comment that say's SVG hates Stuckey and I'll admit that I'm wrong.

[Oracle]

Care to read some of your own posts where you've observed players habits and carried that forward into the future to criticize and hate on,... but for SVG it's childish and unprofessional?

What would be unprofessional and downright stupid is to observe this behavior and take a chance on a person that exhibited it to that degree!

Self reflective may be hard for you, but reading your own posts...   

But first it was no evidence of anything on the subject of SVG & Stuckey(wrong), then it was SVG not meaning Stuckey(wrong), now it's old news that doesn't apply(wrong).

When will it be that you can accept what's being said and realizing that you were just plain wrong from the start... we see you!

BTW, I'm not saying it's impossible he wouldn't resign Stuckey, but IMO, it would take very bad circumstances for it to happen, like NOTHING better being available!

[WTF]

This is a very short story...

It starts out with guys dropping hints about a smell! Several guys tell a person about it, but nothing happens.

Then they start leaving cans of deodorant near his locker, but nothing changes!

Finally they have to bluntly tell him to use some effing deodorant because he just couldn't get a diplomatic hint!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wise & Seb, you guys remind me of this story(no, you don't stink, LOL)

It starts with Wise ONLY reprinting, apparently what he wants to see(not self reflective), and leaving out the part where deductive logic should have led him to a proper conclusion.

"Only Will Bynum from that 2011 team is currently under contract for next season with Greg Monroe entering restricted free agency, and Charlie Villanueva and Rodney Stuckey becoming unrestricted free agents this summer. Bynum, Monroe and Villanueva were not part of the mutiny, or at least showed up for work when others didn't."

Using a little deductive reasoning, you reprinted that SVG said... They've obviously got the wrong guys in that locker room

And the ONLY guy you're talking about bring back once he's gone is the ONE guy that he said shouldn't be in the locker room(because Stuckey is the only one he could possibly be talking about), but somehow you guys have convinced yourselves that he doesn't mean Stuckey... Holy effing crapola   

How many hints does a diplomatic(it's uncool to name names), intelligent person like SVG have to drop for you to catch on?

Those comments would be relevant only if he said them yesterday, but it was quoted from a radio interview from March 2011.  The only way it could possibly matter is if SVG is still carrying that thought almost 4 years later.   That type of deductive reasoning can only conclude that SVG would be just as childish and unprofessional.  How many mutiny has Stuckey been a part of since March 20111?  

You may very well be correct Oracle that SVG perhaps still carry that opinion, but then shame on him for being very short sighted and stuck in his opinion oppose to the overall facts. I'm not sure he's the right person to be coach and president if what you're saying would be a cause not to resigned or at least reach out to Stuckey professionally.

[Oracle]

This is a very short story...

It starts out with guys dropping hints about a smell! Several guys tell a person about it, but nothing happens.

Then they start leaving cans of deodorant near his locker, but nothing changes!

Finally they have to bluntly tell him to use some effing deodorant because he just couldn't get a diplomatic hint!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wise & Seb, you guys remind me of this story(no, you don't stink, LOL)

It starts with Wise ONLY reprinting, apparently what he wants to see(not self reflective), and leaving out the part where deductive logic should have led him to a proper conclusion.

"Only Will Bynum from that 2011 team is currently under contract for next season with Greg Monroe entering restricted free agency, and Charlie Villanueva and Rodney Stuckey becoming unrestricted free agents this summer. Bynum, Monroe and Villanueva were not part of the mutiny, or at least showed up for work when others didn't."

Using a little deductive reasoning, you reprinted that SVG said... They've obviously got the wrong guys in that locker room

And the ONLY guy you're talking about bring back once he's gone is the ONE guy that he said shouldn't be in the locker room(because Stuckey is the only one he could possibly be talking about), but somehow you guys have convinced yourselves that he doesn't mean Stuckey... Holy effing crapola   

How many hints does a diplomatic(it's uncool to name names), intelligent person like SVG have to drop for you to catch on?

[WTF]

Let me say that one of the things I love about DX is his ability to be self reflective! If you point out facts to DX and he observes that he's made a mistake, he admits it and moves on!

But it's the ability to be SELF reflective that's unique!

Some people can't see themselves, which leads to them behaving as if others don't see right through them!

Others on this board have the same quality, it's just that I see it from DX more often, and it's refreshing!

Are you talking about me   

[Oracle]

Let me say that one of the things I love about DX is his ability to be self reflective! If you point out facts to DX and he observes that he's made a mistake, he admits it and moves on!

But it's the ability to be SELF reflective that's unique!

Some people can't see themselves, which leads to them behaving as if others don't see right through them!

Others on this board have the same quality, it's just that I see it from DX more often, and it's refreshing!

[Sebastian]

Gee, I did one search and the results were all over the place!

Look here - Stan Van Gundy on Pistons mutiny in 2011

," Van Gundy told Dan Le Batard on WAXY-AM (790) in Miami in March 2011. "That's about as childish and unprofessional as you can get. And, clearly, that illuminates some of the Pistons' problems right there.

"When you've got that many guys with that little toughness and professionalism on your team, it wouldn't matter who is coaching them - you're not going to be very successful. They've obviously got the wrong guys in that locker room."


Oracle, this isn't an indication of SVG hating Stuckey or any other player for that matter and he basically said what many other coaches said about the mutiny.   Now how childish and unprofessional would it be of SVG if he's carrying the same attitude over an incident 4 seasons ago?  

DX, Let not act as if Stuckey was the first player in the NBA ever to refuse to go into a game yet along a Pistons player including the Pistons player that was being honored.  BTW Big Ben did it twice under Flip and was part of the group that mutiny in 2011.  Prince beefed with Flip, Curry, Kuester and Frank before he was traded to Memphis.  Man do you remember Scotty Pippen refusal to enter a game because his number wasn't being called on a final play of a Bulls playoff game.  

Sometimes as fans we pick and choose when something should offend us and become outrage by it.  Seriously Sheed was a disruption in Portland from fighting players, management and refs and instigated more mischief Stuckey ever has but many choice to love him.  How would have ever thought that Rodman would have played for Pop, and Phil or that 2 former Bad Boys would go on the player for the Bulls and Lakers and win titles there.  

This is why I always find myself defending players like a Josh, or Stuckey because some things get blown way over-board and often the facts are ignored thus fairness and consistency is forgone replace with fabrications and false outrage.  Most of the time it has nothing with what a player is doing on the court.

The first thing that came to mind and made me laugh was a conversation the three of us had a while back after a loss and you guys were persistent about Stuckey having like 5 or 6 turnovers when he actually only had 2.  Because you both pretty much had it already planted in your minds at some point in that game that he did regardlss to what you were seeing.  2 turnovers and 1 of them was a on a blown foul call   

IMO I still think the kid really deserves a chance under better circumstances than he has had. I don't blame Stuckey for all the bad seasons the team has had and neither should anyone else. As for SVG comments or any other coach for that matter what do you think their responses would be to a group of players protesting.  SVG was going through his on issues with his players including his superstar center at the time.  

When I look at all the facts, I can make a case for keeping him that's easy what's hard is making a sound case not base on emotions to not resigned him but putting both cases to the side I simply think he deserves a honest chance to succeed with this team if the contract is right.  The real fact remains that at the end of the day he was still our best option at either guard position.  

PLEASE DON'T RESIGN STUCKEY

Yo, Wise, I was going to offer a response to Oracle SVG claim to hate Stuckey, but you laid it down, my man. No more is needed.

I wish folks would lay off of Stuckey, too. What about the two times Stuckey blacked out, while playing. Does anyone remember that?

[WTF]

Gee, I did one search and the results were all over the place!

Look here - Stan Van Gundy on Pistons mutiny in 2011

," Van Gundy told Dan Le Batard on WAXY-AM (790) in Miami in March 2011. "That's about as childish and unprofessional as you can get. And, clearly, that illuminates some of the Pistons' problems right there.

"When you've got that many guys with that little toughness and professionalism on your team, it wouldn't matter who is coaching them - you're not going to be very successful. They've obviously got the wrong guys in that locker room."


Oracle, this isn't an indication of SVG hating Stuckey or any other player for that matter and he basically said what many other coaches said about the mutiny. Now how childish and unprofessional would it be of SVG if he's carrying the same attitude over an incident 4 seasons ago?

DX, Let not act as if Stuckey was the first player in the NBA ever to refuse to go into a game yet along a Pistons player including the Pistons player that was being honored. BTW Big Ben did it twice under Flip and was part of the group that mutiny in 2011. Prince beefed with Flip, Curry, Kuester and Frank before he was traded to Memphis. Man do you remember Scotty Pippen refusal to enter a game because his number wasn't being called on a final play of a Bulls playoff game.

Sometimes as fans we pick and choose when something should offend us and become outrage by it. Seriously Sheed was a disruption in Portland from fighting players, management and refs and instigated more mischief Stuckey ever has but many choice to love him. How would have ever thought that Rodman would have played for Pop, and Phil or that 2 former Bad Boys would go on the player for the Bulls and Lakers and win titles there.

This is why I always find myself defending players like a Josh, or Stuckey because some things get blown way over-board and often the facts are ignored thus fairness and consistency is forgone replace with fabrications and false outrage. Most of the time it has nothing with what a player is doing on the court.

The first thing that came to mind and made me laugh was a conversation the three of us had a while back after a loss and you guys were persistent about Stuckey having like 5 or 6 turnovers when he actually only had 2. Because you both pretty much had it already planted in your minds at some point in that game that he did regardlss to what you were seeing. 2 turnovers and 1 of them was a on a blown foul call   

IMO I still think the kid really deserves a chance under better circumstances than he has had. I don't blame Stuckey for all the bad seasons the team has had and neither should anyone else. As for SVG comments or any other coach for that matter what do you think their responses would be to a group of players protesting. SVG was going through his on issues with his players including his superstar center at the time.

When I look at all the facts, I can make a case for keeping him that's easy what's hard is making a sound case not base on emotions to not resigned him but putting both cases to the side I simply think he deserves a honest chance to succeed with this team if the contract is right. The real fact remains that at the end of the day he was still our best option at either guard position.

PLEASE DON'T RESIGN STUCKEY

[deusXango]

There are those who place blame every place other than on Stuckey, much like they did with Dumars until it was too late, but in addition to the "boycott" what was his reason for not re-entering the game on Rodman's jersey retirement night? Everybody that was somebody in the Pistons organization was out that night to honor one of the Pistons greats, but Stuck decided it was time to show his ass. That didn't have a thing to do with coaching, but professionalism and dedication to your franchise...I think he failed miserably.

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