Can we afford to lose the true face of the Pistons under Joe?

[Oracle]

[Oracle]

Let's get real!

If you're a coach, you're given players, and if you want to win, you need your best players in the best condition! So if they aren't, you guys would do what? Not demand that they get in shape? WTF planet are you on   

You need to ask yourself why that wasn't a problem under LB... why?

Then maybe you'll understand why it was a problem under these last few!

[WTF]

IMO once a player becomes a professional they shouldn't have to be coax into being in top condition, and improving on their game. They get paid entirely too much money to half asses in preparation. Frankly this is something that should have been drilled into them from the very beginning long before they even signed a professional contract.

SVG shouldn't have to be baby-sitting Moose and Andre ass to make sure their in proper condition. Career wise Josh shoots in the high 60% on his FT even though he shot like crap last season but there's no doubt FT's was a glaring issue for all three. In fairness to Andre he works on his FT's regularly even during the season so he at least trying can't say the same about Moose after 4 seasons.

Big Ben tried to get Moose to workout with him in fact the whole team but the only one to take him up on the offer was Stuckey.

[cool breeze]

I hear you on Monroe, give him a bit more time and stable coaching, but I think Drummond is progressing about as well as can be expected, and likely better, than most big men!

However, I had a dream that won't come true, but it was a beautiful dream busted by Joe Dumars!

How good would Knight & KCP have been as our future backcourt... AWESOME!!!

Talk about being our new pit bulls, defensively, you wouldn't see much better in the NBA, and when two defensive players play together, the effect is magnified beyond their individual talent level!

But offensively they would be a terror as well!

Give the devil his due, Joe made some good draft picks, but he didn't have enough vision to put it all together by finding the best coach for his team!

Oracle Knight was my favorite Piston and I am not sure if the trade was another Joe Dumars brain fart or if Tom Gores group had some love dreams relating to Brandon Jennings. It made no sense at all and to throw in Middleton like a candy bar was insane. Knight was one of the good guys who worked his tail off to get better. He had goals and everyone knew how smart is is and what kind of person he as always been. And even though the Bucks management told the world that they didn't want Jennings on their team, our brain trust decided it would be smart to give away two of our most promising players. I would have been happier if our idiot leaders at the time would have given the Bucks Monroe for Jennings. Yes a backcourt of KCP and Knight would have been really cool. And for sure KCP would have had a easier transition in his rookie year. Knight is kind and has a sense of humor and very little ego. And he is young so for sure KCP would have had a lot more fun than he did playing with Jennings who only wanted to throw the ball to Josh Smith or shoot it himself. As you said those two would have been outstanding playing together on defense.

[cool breeze]

Oh my goodness why are these clowns acting like little bitches waiting to see what Lebron going to do before they decide what to do?  Man all the Old School players have to be sitting somewhere shaking their collective heads.  Remember when the star players of old just simply waited for the All Star game just to play with each others now we got Bosh and Anthony sitting around like little bitches to see if they can be on the same team.  Bosh take that max deal and stop acting like a bitch and Anthony either take your ass to LA or stay in New York and stop acting like a bitch.  As for you Lebron take your dumbass back to Cleveland and what MJ, Magic, Bird and Zeke would have done or keep your ass in Miami with broke-down ass D-Wade  and try carrying them to a NBA title without a big three, two and just be a big 1 that lead your team.

Old School players just use to dream about playing with other players and if it happen it happen but nothing like this dumb ****. I'm now tired of hearing about this little fag school girl bullsh!t enough already.  I don't really give a flying turd where any of you go I'm just tired of hearing this crap every damn day all day.   You assholes should be wanting to compete against each other but instead you all acting like little f@ck butt buddies wanting to have little sleepovers at Lebron's house.   LA and Houston have put 96 million 4 year deals in both of you clowns faces and opportunity to play with Howard and Kobe and you all want to suck James ass. Really

MJ baddest player ever and you didn't see not one other star drooling to play with him, you seen them all wanting to beat him.  You asses make my stomach hurt.  ARRRRRRGH!!!!!!!

That about covers it Wisefan. I think the NBA front office likes this nonsense. But in the end even though Labron is a great player, is there any wonder why so many basketball fans are hoping his team will lose. It doesn't matter what team he is on either in case Labron didn't know that.

[cool breeze]

I keep saying this and neither of you guys address it directly, or seem to ignore it.

IMO, most of the team last year was poorly conditioned!

Monroe slacks off because he isn't in shape to go the distance in the NBA... Drummond too!!!

Poor conditioning comes from crap coaching! Nobody under Larry Brown would last long if they didn't come in ready to play 48 minutes a game if needed!

IMO, SVG will require that these dudes get into game shape, and Drummond has mentioned that as well!

This is one area that no one can point a finger at Josh, who stays in game shape, and was likely one of his frustrations with Monroe and to a lesser degree Drummond!

Well conditioned teams do NOT lose that many 4th quarter leads, it just can't happen!!!

Oracle this is simply not true but one would like to think that an NBA coach could insist that his players get in shape. I recall my high school coach saying I don't care if some of you players don't run the suicides as hard as you can. You are only hurting your chances of getting playing time. Same was true in college. Depending on what position you played, a player had to run the mile in a certain time with guards having to bust their asses harder to meet the time limit. But other than that, the coach was not watching how hard you were running the stairs in the field house which was another torture test for those players who tried their hardest. In college if a player looked fat or looked lazy in practice, the coach just put them on the sideline and didn't bitch them out at all. Silence was punishment enough but of course those lazy ass players were penalized when the real games started. When I coached, I made it clear that I wanted my players fit before we had our first practice. We had get togethers on the track and ran wind sprints like football players. It was tough and still all that conditioning never helped much when it came to playing basketball full court in practice other than the mental thing you acquire when you are punishing yourself trying to get as fit as possible. Flash forward to the NBA and no GM or coach should have to ever tell a professional player that they are out of shape and should not tolerate any player who decides to show up in training camp looking like a lard ass. But some to that exact thing. I recall Maxiell after he signed his big contract after his rookie contract. He was fat entering training camp. On the other hand there are players like Labron or our Piston Bad Boys who did all the little things they could think of to improve and get a edge on opponent players. I agree with many who believe that neither Monroe or Drummond came to camp last season in good shape to play basketball. i think somehow that kind of player will always be suspect players that coaches cannot ever trust in prime time when the game is on the line. I connect bad free throw shooting in the same category as being in poor physical condition. What were most of our players doing last summer? There is no way that Monroe could have been working on his free throw shooting. There is no way that Josh Smith had been working on his free throw shooting. And what about Drummond? What happened there. He knew how much he sucked at the line but came in to training camp shooting free throws much worse than my wife. I spent about 30 minutes with my wife who caught on real quick and practiced so she wouldn't get stuck with doing the dishes after our meals. 

If the big thing to accomplish with Monroe and Drummond is for SVG to spend time with them to make sure they are in proper game shape, then the team is in big trouble. We were in big trouble partly because of that reason last season and you can bet that the coaching staff knew it and tried real hard to motivate their asses. But with some players, it takes electric shock to change attitude. Big men are in general the most difficult players to coach or predict where their heads are at in any given time period. Nobody made Ben Wallace get in shape. This is kind of like breaking the smoking habit. No coach can make you stop smoking. A person has to get fed up with who they are as a person and then the light bulb comes on and change happens. No amount of talking or motivating can change a slug especially at the NBA level once they sign that contract. I am worried that Monroe will become a slug the moment he signs zee contract. Slow lazy feet and no attempt to get to his defensive spots most of the time last year and the year before makes for a low chance that he will somehow become a adequate defender in the future even if Larry Brown is the coach. I say trade Monroe for maybe two players who like the feeling of being in good physical condition.

[WTF]

To bad for Harrellson I really like his potential but I understand the team not wanting to commit money with him having a back injury. So at least now we know why Gray was picked up.

[WTF]

Oh my goodness why are these clowns acting like little bitches waiting to see what Lebron going to do before they decide what to do? Man all the Old School players have to be sitting somewhere shaking their collective heads. Remember when the star players of old just simply waited for the All Star game just to play with each others now we got Bosh and Anthony sitting around like little bitches to see if they can be on the same team. Bosh take that max deal and stop acting like a bitch and Anthony either take your ass to LA or stay in New York and stop acting like a bitch. As for you Lebron take your dumbass back to Cleveland and what MJ, Magic, Bird and Zeke would have done or keep your ass in Miami with broke-down ass D-Wade and try carrying them to a NBA title without a big three, two and just be a big 1 that lead your team.

Old School players just use to dream about playing with other players and if it happen it happen but nothing like this dumb ****. I'm now tired of hearing about this little fag school girl bullsh!t enough already. I don't really give a flying turd where any of you go I'm just tired of hearing this crap every damn day all day. You assholes should be wanting to compete against each other but instead you all acting like little f@ck butt buddies wanting to have little sleepovers at Lebron's house. LA and Houston have put 96 million 4 year deals in both of you clowns faces and opportunity to play with Howard and Kobe and you all want to suck James ass. Really

MJ baddest player ever and you didn't see not one other star drooling to play with him, you seen them all wanting to beat him. You asses make my stomach hurt. ARRRRRRGH!!!!!!!

[WTF]

I keep saying this and neither of you guys address it directly, or seem to ignore it.

IMO, most of the team last year was poorly conditioned!

Monroe slacks off because he isn't in shape to go the distance in the NBA... Drummond too!!!

Poor conditioning comes from crap coaching! Nobody under Larry Brown would last long if they didn't come in ready to play 48 minutes a game is needed!

IMO, SVG will require that these dudes get into game shape, and Drummond has mentioned that as well!

This is one area that no one can point a finger at Josh, who stays in game shape, and was likely one of his frustrations with Monroe and to a lesser degree Drummond!

Well conditioned teams do NOT lose that many 4th quarter leads, it just can't happen!!!

I'll buy this reasoning on Drummond but Moose carried this tag from as far back as his H.S. playing days.  Hopefully SVG can light a fire under his ass I'm just not sure of it and think SVG better be sure of it before he fork over a max deal.   It's so much different with Andre because he wants to learn and suck up as much knowledge as he can, and this is something this kind of excitement we never gotten out of Moose in his 4 seasons.  Andre was pumped to have Sheed , Moose was never pumped to learn form Big Ben.

[Oracle]

I keep saying this and neither of you guys address it directly, or seem to ignore it.

IMO, most of the team last year was poorly conditioned!

Monroe slacks off because he isn't in shape to go the distance in the NBA... Drummond too!!!

Poor conditioning comes from crap coaching! Nobody under Larry Brown would last long if they didn't come in ready to play 48 minutes a game if needed!

IMO, SVG will require that these dudes get into game shape, and Drummond has mentioned that as well!

This is one area that no one can point a finger at Josh, who stays in game shape, and was likely one of his frustrations with Monroe and to a lesser degree Drummond!

Well conditioned teams do NOT lose that many 4th quarter leads, it just can't happen!!!

[Oracle]

Cleveland trades Jack to the Nets in a 3 team trade!

Report: Cavaliers agree to trade with Nets, Celtics, clearing cap space for LeBron James

[WTF]

Don said:

MONROE: If Monroe signs a long term contract I hope that you are right Oracle. But I have reservations regarding both players. I have been watching Noel in the summer league games. He has a nose for the ball, good instincts on defense and that reminds me that our two big men are missing those qualities. Monroe especially worries me because his presence has not made our Pistons better when thinking about TEAM. His stats seem good but his impact is not there. his previous coaches have evaluated Monroe as a player they do not trust in crunch time when the game is on the line. Think about that for a minute. Monroe has been on the team for several years yet he still is not a guy who can make teammates better when it counts nor has he earned the trust of his coaches. He looks tired much of the time when it counts. He has slow feet and is always out of position on defense which is why the coaching staff cannot trust him. I can only recall two games last season where I thought Monroe played hard for a complete game. One game was in New Orleans where he was playing in front of his family. What information do people have that I don't have after watching him for so long? Is is suddenly going to play differently after he gets a long term contract? Or will he slack off more for 5 years?

Don if I was force into a bet on which way Moose would go I would have to say he'll slack off more for 5 years or SVG would be force to trade him by the second year of that deal. Especially if SVG continue to give him a steady dose of PT at the PF position or if the decision is to bring him off the bench say behind either Drummond or Josh. A lot of what we see and complain about with Moose is the same stuff that made him fall in the draft, the same stuff that gave many GM's pause about selecting him. He was lazy in college, not as dominate as many thought he should have been. IMO he has the talent that he should be a consistent 20-10 guy not some days but every time he hits the court but he is far too inconsistent in his effort during games and from game to game. I've been calling it since his second season in the league he plays 3 good games and then he takes 5 to 6 games off before he give you another 3 good games. But by the time he decides to play hard the team have loss 4 or 5 games in a row.

This would be okay if he was in a lineup with dominate players like KD, James, Kobe or Carmelo or on a team where he's a 3rd option. But when you're 3rd option and your defense/motor are questionable it doesn't warrant getting a max deal. I have no issue with keeping Moose if the price is right and he accepts being the one to come off the bench. Sure he should start but the plan is to build around Andre and Smith is by far the better PF and I'm just not sure Moose can accept that role.

[Oracle]

I hear you on Monroe, give him a bit more time and stable coaching, but I think Drummond is progressing about as well as can be expected, and likely better, than most big men!

However, I had a dream that won't come true, but it was a beautiful dream busted by Joe Dumars!

How good would Knight & KCP have been as our future backcourt... AWESOME!!!

Talk about being our new pit bulls, defensively, you wouldn't see much better in the NBA, and when two defensive players play together, the effect is magnified beyond their individual talent level!

But offensively they would be a terror as well!

Give the devil his due, Joe made some good draft picks, but he didn't have enough vision to put it all together by finding the best coach for his team!

[cool breeze]

For the next 5-7 years... the future BEST frontcourt duo in basketball...

MONROE: If Monroe signs a long term contract I hope that you are right Oracle. But I have reservations regarding both players. I have been watching Noel in the summer league games. He has a nose for the ball, good instincts on defense and that reminds me that our two big men are missing those qualities. Monroe especially worries me because his presence has not made our Pistons better when thinking about TEAM. His stats seem good but his impact is not there. his previous coaches have evaluated Monroe as a player they do not trust in crunch time when the game is on the line. Think about that for a minute. Monroe has been on the team for several years yet he still is not a guy who can make teammates better when it counts nor has he earned the trust of his coaches. He looks tired much of the time when it counts. He has slow feet and is always out of position on defense which is why the coaching staff cannot trust him. I can only recall two games last season where I thought Monroe played hard for a complete game. One game was in New Orleans where he was playing in front of his family. What information do people have that I don't have after watching him for so long? Is is suddenly going to play differently after he gets a long term contract? Or will he slack off more for 5 years?

DRUMMOND: I like the fact that Drummond is working out with the players in Orlando like Singler is doing. This builds team chemistry for sure. If Drummond is properly tuned in to a good work ethic the sky is the limit but in the past he has been guilty of being a slacker. Will he finally get himself in supreme physical condition before the season starts this year? Will he buy into becoming an enforcer on the defensive end? I can't say for sure that he will be that kind of player based on what I have seen of him so far. There are a lot of unanswered questions relating to both Monroe and Drummond. We still have no for sure solid two way player outside of the moody Smith. If I were the Piston's coach, I would not be confident in our front court just yet. And we have no real gutsy tough in your face skill player in the backcourt yet. Perhaps based on what KCP has been doing in summer league, he might in time become one of the Piston core leaders. He has been the only player that has actually made his teammates a lot better when he is on the floor. Given this is only summer league play but I am impressed with this guy. He is no longer happy to stay in the background. He has been playing summer league games much like the last regular season game against the Thunder. Way to go KCP!

[Oracle]

Keith Langlois  
   
Ouch. P.J. Carlesimo on ESPN just said a Cavs trade of Dion Waiters would be "addition by subtraction." Cavs could've taken @AndreDrummondd

[Oracle]

For the next 5-7 years... the future BEST frontcourt duo in basketball...

[WTF]

Conceivably, Monroe could be wooed by the likes of the Los Angeles Lakers, and considering that restricted free agency generally happens only once, he’ll weigh his options and the Pistons will have to be comfortable with that.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140708/SPORTS0102/307080103#ixzz36vfs70rS

Sorry but he wouldn't sign that offer Max Deal or not    If Josh hurt his feelings what the hell do you think Kobe would do to them. Although having Gasol and Monroe in the line up together could work offensively at least.

Plus what could they offer us in a sign and trade, a third team would need to be added. Personally Gasol needs to take his ass to OKC or Chicago. Okay Bulls get Gasol, Lakers get Monroe and we get Boozer and both LA and Chicago 1st picks next season.

[WTF]

Just my 2cents but you all know that I'm a fan of only rotating 3 guards 1 pure PG and 1 pure SG and then a combo guard that I can play with either. IMO we don't really need but 2 of each (PG/SG) on the roster and then 1 combo guard. IMO Stuckey, KCP, and Meek would be a perfect 3 guard rotation to go with until Dinwiddie is ready to go.

It's not that, but the injury factor that has to be considered!

Look at last year and the panic we were in and had to start Bynum, even though we had a sh!t load of PG's on the roster!

It's the safety factor, but I too like the 3 guard offense, and in reality both KCP & Meeks could fit that, although Meeks is a very short SG!

Yeah it's always the injury but it's also a preference thing since some team carry a number of combo guards. Affalo spent almost an entire season at the PG position his first season in Orlando so you can in some cases get away with it. I think our PG situation was just special to begin with and always a desperate panicking situation.   

[Oracle]

Lots of drama in this last game. The Heat are a physical good shooting team. What impressed me besides KCP on both ends of the floor was Liggins. This guy is tough. How can the Pistons somehow keep this guy? How refreshing to see Piston players doing the fundamentals and playing hard on defense when it counts. I still am not sold on our vet players because they have never shown that they are capable of playing really hard on both ends. But the impact of SVG is clear so far in the Summer league games and he is sitting in the stands.

Don, that's precisely the reason I do believe the vets will perform a heck of a lot better!

Even though I'm waiting for more shoes to drop on the FA/Trade front from SVG the GM, I'm more than sold on SVG the coach!

Yes, I would love to somehow keep that Liggings kid, but it's hard to see how that could work on the roster numbers game, we'll have to see how that shakes out!

IMO, SVG will turn around those horrible 4th quarter losses we suffered last year, and players will play harder when the option is to face SVG after a timeout(the Larry Brown effect)!

[WTF]

I still haven't had my question answered, to any degree of satisfaction, "how does a player, in a professional league, be voted as the league MVP and in the bat of an eye, not be sh!t (unless there was a physical reason)?"  - DX

Could it be that he was part of a sh!t league to begin with!       

No, seriously, I'm with DX on this one! If you watched the games, what you would notice is that they obviously scouted Datome, and I never really saw him get enough space to regularly get off his shot and get his stroke going.

I'm not sure about him, but I would like to at least see how he adjusts after one season in the NBA and making the speed adjustment!

I feel the both of you it's just that I'm not all that convince the team owe him another opportunity that's. Is he down in Orlando with Andre, JJ and Singler and he probably needs to being playing in these SL games as well trying to make a positive impression on the new regime. DX, Datome shouldn't be gifted an opportunity he needs to earn it. Right now Brian Cook is more deserving of his roster spot IMO.

[Oracle]

Just my 2cents but you all know that I'm a fan of only rotating 3 guards 1 pure PG and 1 pure SG and then a combo guard that I can play with either. IMO we don't really need but 2 of each (PG/SG) on the roster and then 1 combo guard. IMO Stuckey, KCP, and Meek would be a perfect 3 guard rotation to go with until Dinwiddie is ready to go.

It's not that, but the injury factor that has to be considered!

Look at last year and the panic we were in and had to start Bynum, even though we had a sh!t load of PG's on the roster!

It's the safety factor, but I too like the 3 guard offense, and in reality both KCP & Meeks could fit that, although Meeks is a very short SG!

[cool breeze]

Lots of drama in this last game. The Heat are a physical good shooting team. What impressed me besides KCP on both ends of the floor was Liggins. This guy is tough. How can the Pistons somehow keep this guy? How refreshing to see Piston players doing the fundamentals and playing hard on defense when it counts. I still am not sold on our vet players because they have never shown that they are capable of playing really hard on both ends. But the impact of SVG is clear so far in the Summer league games and he is sitting in the stands.

[WTF]

We don't need another PG as much as another high percentage shooter, so to hell with the talk about Thomas and Nelson (once we dump Bynum let's be done with midgets for heavens sake; what did Don call 'em, side show acts? No more side show acts!)

You're satisfied with our PG situation?

You think going into the season with just Jennings and Siva is good enough?

If we got rid of Bynum, yeah, I'd be comfortable with Jennings and Siva until Dinwiddie was ready to take the floor. It's not like those two guys are so bad that they'll lead the team to a 0-40 record....by the mid-season point I expect Spencer to be in the mix and to invest in high priced Thomas or bargain basement Nelson would be unnecessary until then.

Here's guarantee!

No coach worth 2 cents would go into a season with only two point guards! That would malpractice and total insanity!

How many capable PG's did we go into the season with last year....the operative word being "capable!" We'll probably have Bynum also (nobody else wants him but us) and with Dinwiddie on the mend, that's 4 PG's! Oh by the way, get in touch with Cheeks, he owes you 2 cents. I'm still hoping for another high percentage outside shooter.

Right now I would rather bring Stuckey back and make him our fulltime PG then watch Jennings and Bynum running around like dingbats this coming seasons.

Just my 2cents but you all know that I'm a fan of only rotating 3 guards 1 pure PG and 1 pure SG and then a combo guard that I can play with either. IMO we don't really need but 2 of each (PG/SG) on the roster and then 1 combo guard. IMO Stuckey, KCP, and Meek would be a perfect 3 guard rotation to go with until Dinwiddie is ready to go.

[Oracle]

I still haven't had my question answered, to any degree of satisfaction, "how does a player, in a professional league, be voted as the league MVP and in the bat of an eye, not be sh!t (unless there was a physical reason)?"  - DX

Could it be that he was part of a sh!t league to begin with!       

No, seriously, I'm with DX on this one! If you watched the games, what you would notice is that they obviously scouted Datome, and I never really saw him get enough space to regularly get off his shot and get his stroke going.

I'm not sure about him, but I would like to at least see how he adjusts after one season in the NBA and making the speed adjustment!

[Oracle]

That's not a serious response! What you consider capable isn't reality!

If you don't believe me, and for the life of me I can't see why you're persisting in this, check ANY team this year, last year or the last 20 years, and find me anyone that went into the season with ONLY 2 PG's on the roster except on an emergency situation!

It simply makes no basketball sense!

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