John Wall

[Phil-Good]

John Wall for Hayes? Yes.

Why? Because Hayes is a Fuc&&)&king BUST!!!!!

Hayes is a bust!!!

Get off this bum now!! Not saying Wall is the guy but Hayes is not the guy!!

[lemonpen]

This is just my opinion about the NBA. There are 3 stages to winning.

Stage 1: Rebuild. Expiring contracts, hit on high draft picks, make moves for major cap space. Hit on low draft picks also.

Stage 2: Rebuild 90% complete. You have a good young core. Now your one player away. One good head coach away. One break-out young star away. You have arrived.

Stage 3: Ride or die with your core. Vets jump on board to play with your core. Veteran players want to play with your core and compete for a championship every year. Being healthy is the only thing that can really stop you.



If you build your team right, making the playoffs will never be a goal. Building a championship team should always be the goal.

If your a great NBA Owner and Organization, you don't try to skip these steps. You master these steps and move through them smart and savvy with good trades, good leadership, major cap space for free agents and trades. And you have to hit in the draft. No matter where you pick at.

In those 3 steps, making the playoffs is never the goal. Being in a position to win championships is the goal.

Trust the process, no short cuts like trading for damaged goods like Blake or trading for street ballers like Brandon Jennings. You can't cheat the process unless your Miami, NY Or LA.

If any of that is to work the guy making the decisions better have an exceptional eye for underappreciated talent.

I hope our PROCESS isn't like Phillys, cause theirs is taking too dang long.

[Oracle]

They won't let me embed this video because it's from the NFL Vault, but you can go to youtube if interested. Surprising results and a fantastic game!

When will we be this good again??????

Emmitt Smith vs. Barry Sanders Monday Night Showdown | NFL Vault Stories

[Phil-Good]

This is just my opinion about the NBA. There are 3 stages to winning.

Stage 1: Rebuild. Expiring contracts, hit on high draft picks, make moves for major cap space. Hit on low draft picks also.

Stage 2: Rebuild 90% complete. You have a good young core. Now your one player away. One good head coach away. One break-out young star away. You have arrived.

Stage 3: Ride or die with your core. Vets jump on board to play with your core. Veteran players want to play with your core and compete for a championship every year. Being healthy is the only thing that can really stop you.



If you build your team right, making the playoffs will never be a goal. Building a championship team should always be the goal.

If your a great NBA Owner and Organization, you don't try to skip these steps. You master these steps and move through them smart and savvy with good trades, good leadership, major cap space for free agents and trades. And you have to hit in the draft. No matter where you pick at.

In those 3 steps, making the playoffs is never the goal. Being in a position to win championships is the goal.

Trust the process, no short cuts like trading for damaged goods like Blake or trading for street ballers like Brandon Jennings. You can't cheat the process unless your Miami, NY Or LA.

[Oracle]

“Rasheed Wallace (Sheed) would tell you what move he was doing and still get the bucket”: Joakim Noah refuses to start,bench and cut the Pistons legend, Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett

[Murph]

So based on advanced stats, Mason Plumlee was far and away the best Piston last season.  He led the team in win-shares, win-shares per minute played, offensive rating per 100 possessions, and was tied for the lead in defensive rating.  

So my question is, is the addition of Cunningham plus the improvement of all the young players, going to overcome the loss of the Pistons best player.  It seems unlikely.  It seems unlikely that the Pistons will improve much this year, if at all.

Compounding the problem are the losses of Wright and Ellington, who were the 5th and 6th best players on the team, based on advanced stats.

Realistically speaking, we’re in for another terrible season.

[Oracle]

Murph, I understand your frustration! Even so, I watched a lot of Piston games last year, and gladly paid for the pleasure. Being on the west coast now, I no longer have the luxury of seeing the games for free, and the NBA loves my problem, LOL.

I found most, but obviously not all of the games interesting and frustrating, but it was nice to see us finally have young talent I could believe in. BTW, really loved your trip down memory land of Gores and his ridiculous playoff demands and all of the players we suffered through, although I wouldn't put Knight in there, because he clearly kicked our butts early and often when he was with the Bucks, he was a terror, which is why Phoenix traded for him. Injury cut his career short, but he, unlike a lot on your list, was a hard worker and a good guy.

Ultimately, Walker was the pick, and you called it at the time, so that much you get a lot of props for.

But ultimately I totally agree with Phillip!

We have so much young talent that while next season may be a crap shoot, and totally depend on if Cade can blow up, the following season could be very good.

I don't totally write us off for the coming season for a few reasons.
1. Grant is still here
2. Young talent can surprise, they don't know they're supposed to lose, and have shown, they don't like losing, a very good sign.
3. Depending on the way the season is going, a lot can happen at the trade deadline

Still, the odds of making the playoffs this season aren't good, a lot of "if's" need to happen for us to contend, but I'm good with that for now.

Casey has surprised me a LOT with the way he's coached these young kids, I confess I thought he couldn't do it, but he's done wonders with them, so there's that.

Keep the faith, with our young talent and the coming boat load of cash, good things could be just around the corner!

[Murph]

Phil...I think the difference between our relative moods is objectivity. You hated the last Pistons team even though they played around .500 when Griffin was healthy. But you love this team, even though they have no chance in Hell of playing .500 and making the playoffs for at least 2 more years.

OTOH, I liked the last team, as flawed as it was. And while I like many of the young players on this team, CC, Bey, Stewart, Frank Jackson, Lee, Garza, Livers and even Hayes... in general, I find losing upwards of 50 or 60 games every year for 3 or 4 years to be a depressing, mind numbing experience. And we aren’t even going to get back where we were until the 4th or 5th year of this rebuild.

Let me put it this way, I haven’t watched a Piston game in years.

So based on performance alone, and not some subjective view of potential, the process of completely rebuilding sucks.

"I guess the Pistons got four 2nd round picks by taking on about $8.2 million in salary from Jordan's contract ($19.6).   (Sekou's $3.5 + Okafor's $2.1 + $5.8 in cash = $11.4)  $19.6 - $11.4 = $8.2"

Great Math! I feel even better about this trade now.

Let me talk about Gores for a few seconds. I believe up intel now, Gores has been one of the worst owners in the NBA. Gores started off with a short sited goal of making the playoff every year with no chance of ever winning a championship. Pressing Joe Dumars and every bad GM hire after Joe, to make the playoffs or else. Then making a bad hire in Stan Van Gundy, who pulled off a desperate trade for Blake Griffin who has always been Damaged Goods!! Passing up on a easy selection and a clear cut talent in Devin Booker.

The last 3 seasons Gores has done a way better job as a owner. Hiring Ed Stefansky was a good decision.

Hiring Troy was even FREAKING BETTER! This freaking guy is NUTS!! I have never seen A GM take on so much dead money! Props to the owner for allowing the GM to do whatever necessary to get the organization back on the right track.

The Pistons are  loaded with young talent in a young mans game. Cade, Stewart, Bey, Lee, Hamidou Diallo, Josh Jackson, Frank Jackson, Isiah Livers, Jamorko Pickett, Luka Garza, UCLA kid Smith, 2022 First Round pick, two 2022 second round picks!! Cap space in summer 2022 and J.Grant as a core veteran and major trade asset.

Respect to Troy and even Tom Gores.    

The Organization has officially turn the car around and is now going down the freeway on the correct side.

I only read one mistake. Killian Hayes is a BUST!! In this business, that's going to happen from time to time. It's ok...

[Phil-Good]

"I guess the Pistons got four 2nd round picks by taking on about $8.2 million in salary from Jordan's contract ($19.6). (Sekou's $3.5 + Okafor's $2.1 + $5.8 in cash = $11.4) $19.6 - $11.4 = $8.2"

Great Math! I feel even better about this trade now.

Let me talk about Gores for a few seconds. I believe up intel now, Gores has been one of the worst owners in the NBA. Gores started off with a short sited goal of making the playoff every year with no chance of ever winning a championship. Pressing Joe Dumars and every bad GM hire after Joe, to make the playoffs or else. Then making a bad hire in Stan Van Gundy, who pulled off a desperate trade for Blake Griffin who has always been Damaged Goods!! Passing up on a easy selection and a clear cut talent in Devin Booker.

The last 3 seasons Gores has done a way better job as a owner. Hiring Ed Stefansky was a good decision.

Hiring Troy was even FREAKING BETTER! This freaking guy is NUTS!! I have never seen A GM take on so much dead money! Props to the owner for allowing the GM to do whatever necessary to get the organization back on the right track.

The Pistons are loaded with young talent in a young mans game. Cade, Stewart, Bey, Lee, Hamidou Diallo, Josh Jackson, Frank Jackson, Isiah Livers, Jamorko Pickett, Luka Garza, UCLA kid Smith, 2022 First Round pick, two 2022 second round picks!! Cap space in summer 2022 and J.Grant as a core veteran and major trade asset.

Respect to Troy and even Tom Gores.

The Organization has officially turn the car around and is now going down the freeway on the correct side.

I only read one mistake. Killian Hayes is a BUST!! In this business, that's going to happen from time to time. It's ok...

[Murph]

Subtract 2-3 mil as Jordan's buyout concession .  Then balance the remainder against whatever it may have cost to waive 1 contract (Jalil,  necessary to get down to 15 man limit).  Troy essentially paid 3.1 mil for 4 2nd round picks.  In a year when the cash is available maybe this is ok.

Lemon...thank you for clarifying.  Yes, it was a good trade by Weaver.  And oddly enough, Weaver and other Piston GMs have had relatively good luck with their 2nd round picks. So I have no doubt that at least a couple of those acquired picks could be useful.

I was just commenting on the extraordinary amount of money Gores ends up spending on non-performing contracts in general, the most egregious being Blake Griffin’s.  Gores will end up paying $30 million this year alone so that Griffin can play for the Nets.

Hopefully, after Griffin’s contract finally expires, the Pistons can return to some level of fiscal sanity.  


Gores is clearly the single worst Piston owner in their 80 year history, hands down. 

[lemonpen]

Man...what a complete and utter bust Sekou was.  That kid showed nothing.  He needs to play in a European C League.

First and foremost, if the Pistons are going to gain any kind of respectability moving forward, they are going to have to improve their drafting.  We simply cannot tolerate any more 1st round picks like Killian Hayes, Sekou, Henry Ellenson, Stanley Johnson, Brandon Knight and Austin Daye.  Enough is enough.  


I guess the Pistons got four 2nd round picks by taking on about $8.2 million in salary from Jordan's contract ($19.6).   (Sekou's $3.5 + Okafor's $2.1 + $5.8 in cash = $11.4)  $19.6 - $11.4 = $8.2

It's hard to believe how much Gore's keeps spending on non-performing contracts.  Gores really is a dumbas.



Phil...George Hill was the guy who would have saved us from the Blake Griffin trade and the last 3 years of misery.

Subtract 2-3 mil as Jordan's buyout concession .  Then balance the remainder against whatever it may have cost to waive 1 contract (Jalil, necessary to get down to 15 man limit).  Troy essentially paid 3.1 mil for 4 2nd round picks.  In a year when the cash is available maybe this is ok.

[Murph]

Man...what a complete and utter bust Sekou was.  That kid showed nothing.  He needs to play in a European C League.

First and foremost, if the Pistons are going to gain any kind of respectability moving forward, they are going to have to improve their drafting.  We simply cannot tolerate any more 1st round picks like Killian Hayes, Sekou, Henry Ellenson, Stanley Johnson, Brandon Knight and Austin Daye.  Enough is enough.


I guess the Pistons got four 2nd round picks by taking on about $8.2 million in salary from Jordan's contract ($19.6).   (Sekou's $3.5 + Okafor's $2.1 + $5.8 in cash = $11.4)  $19.6 - $11.4 = $8.2

It's hard to believe how much Gore's keeps spending on non-performing contracts.  Gores really is a dumbas.



Phil...George Hill was the guy who would have saved us from the Blake Griffin trade and the last 3 years of misery.

[Phil-Good]

"Jackson, Hill, Dinwiddie
KCP. Kennard
Bullock, Johnson
Morris
Drummond, Baynes

Almost all of those guys are still productive for other teams.

Jackson is a lazy mother-F&@KER. He had a nice playoff run but he a turn it on turn it off kind of guy. Not a starting PG on a championship team!

KCP is ok. He looks good next to Lebron James but so would I. Again, not a night in and night out guy you can depend on.

Kennard. I like Kennard. Good player. Don't have anything bad to say about Luke. You can win with a guy like Kennard.

Morris. I like Morris. Don't have anything bad to say about Morris. You can win a championship with a guy like Morris.

Bullock: I like Bullock. Can't say anything bad about Bullock. A championship role player type who plays hard every night. And can make big shots..

Stanley Johnson: BUST! But a great lesson. Never pass on a skills player like Devin Booker for a kid that looks the part but really don't possess the skill set the NBA requires.

Baynes: I like Baynes. Set great screens, kicks azz and plays hard. Can score the basketball also. Inside and outside.

Drummonds: I'm not even going to start today.

Who the Fu@@@k is Hill??? Did he play for the Pistons??????

[Oracle]

They will send the Pistons their 2022 and 2027 second-round picks along with the more favorable 2024 second-rounder between the Washington Wizards and Memphis Grizzlies and the more favorable 2025 second-rounder between the Wizards and Golden State Warriors, sources said.

[Phil-Good]

Sakou. I wish good luck to you brother. Keep working. Find a nitch that will keep you in the league for 18 more years. I would also say work on being more serious about the game. Work on being the ultimate professional. Work on your motor and being more serious about being a professional NBA player.

Good job by Troy to land cash, 4 seconds round picks and a open roster spot.

Trust the process

[lemonpen]

Probably not fair to Drummond, because he twice the player Jordan is now, but funny none the less  

At least in Jodan you have a guy who will attempt to play within his role.

[lemonpen]

Now I'm really rooting for Garza!! He is sure to see a reasonable amount of PT as the 3rd C.

[lemonpen]

Good luck Tin Man. Maybe you will find a heart. Lord knows you displayed none this summer.

[Oracle]

Probably not fair to Drummond, because he twice the player Jordan is now, but funny none the less  

[Oracle]

The Brooklyn Nets are trading DeAndre Jordan, along with four second-round picks and $5.78 million to the Detroit Pistons Jahlil Okafor and Sekou Doumbouya. - Wojo

Well Jordan is a nothing burger, but so too are Okafor and Dumbo.

So what we really got for two former 1st round picks is some useful cash, and 4 2nd round picks that may not be worth much except in future trades.

This trade doesn't appear to have an impact either good or bad, sort of sideways, so I give it a solid B, because Jordan, cash, and 4 picks are worth a hell of a lot more than what we lost

What I don't understand is why Detroit would buy him out, just so he can get picked up by the Lakers, unless the buyout comes to $5.78M! The Nets lives were saved by us doing that, and Jordan actually does have a lot of value as a rim protector, just nothing else.

If Dumbo has a similar rebirth like Bruce Brown, I'll be shocked, but playing on a better team can do wonders for a player if they really have talent.

[Sparma]

I agree that the rotation you describe, Murph, including Hill, looks formidable. The Pistons get an F for optimizing their own talent from that group.

Still, I'll confess to being a sucker for rebuilds, even long rebuilds, if they have some reasonable chance of succeeding.

For all his moves, I regard Weaver as dawdling in building a long term team around the superstar prospect they lucked into as hoped, with the crucial exception of draft picks (also going back to last year) who could be long term rotation players.

The Cade drama likely will carry on until he has a chance to leave, but I think we'll know a ton more next year with 30 mil from Blake's contract coming free and quite possibly a top 6 draft pick. If we don't see the lineaments of a good team by the end of next summer, that will spell trouble, trouble that could then take years to come to fruition in the form of a Cade departure. If we're to make good, a lot of the pieces of the puzzles had better be visible by the start of the 22-23 season. Until then I'm happy to be in tank mode, so long as there are promising developments during a losing season.

"I think Murph's strongest argument concerns that 44-38 season. But I think that argument primarily pertains to the Griffin trade. We shouldn't have done it. Maybe it was a time to go for broke, but not that way. I was one of many to say so at the time, along with Murph."

Sparma...yes, I agree.  The root of the entire problem was the Griffin trade.  That 15-16 team that went 44-38 had an insane amount of talent....Drummond, Harris, Jackson, KCP, Dinwiddie, Marcus Morris, Bullock.  All they had to do was to keep that team together and let it develop.

However, the next two years, Reggie Jackson went down with high ankle sprains.  At the time, I strongly agued for the Piston to trade for George Hill as a stop-gap measure to fill in for Jackson.  Hill was on the block, and the Pistons could have put together a package of expiring contracts, along with a 1st round pick to bring him in.  Hill would have made a steady, level headed, pass first, defensive minded back-up to Jackson for years, insuring against further injuries to Jackson.

Realistically, the Pistons probably could not have brought back all that talent.  They probably would have been forced to let Harris walk away due to salary cap concerns.  But this rotation would have been formidable.  
 
Jackson, Hill, Dinwiddie
KCP. Kennard
Bullock, Johnson
Morris
Drummond, Baynes

Almost all of those guys are still productive for other teams.

That team could have grown together and matured together for years.  We never would have won a Championship, but we could have had many successful season and possibly even made it to the EC Finals a couple of times.

Let me put it this way, that team would have been a lot more entertaining than tanking.

[Murph]

"I think Murph's strongest argument concerns that 44-38 season. But I think that argument primarily pertains to the Griffin trade. We shouldn't have done it. Maybe it was a time to go for broke, but not that way. I was one of many to say so at the time, along with Murph."

Sparma...yes, I agree.  The root of the entire problem was the Griffin trade.  That 15-16 team that went 44-38 had an insane amount of talent....Drummond, Harris, Jackson, KCP, Dinwiddie, Marcus Morris, Bullock.  All they had to do was to keep that team together and let it develop.

However, the next two years, Reggie Jackson went down with high ankle sprains.  At the time, I strongly agued for the Piston to trade for George Hill as a stop-gap measure to fill in for Jackson.  Hill was on the block, and the Pistons could have put together a package of expiring contracts, along with a 1st round pick to bring him in.  Hill would have made a steady, level headed, pass first, defensive minded back-up to Jackson for years, insuring against further injuries to Jackson.

Realistically, the Pistons probably could not have brought back all that talent.  They probably would have been forced to let Harris walk away due to salary cap concerns.  But this rotation would have been formidable.  
 
Jackson, Hill, Dinwiddie
KCP. Kennard
Bullock, Johnson
Morris
Drummond, Baynes

Almost all of those guys are still productive for other teams.

That team could have grown together and matured together for years.  We never would have won a Championship, but we could have had many successful season and possibly even made it to the EC Finals a couple of times.

Let me put it this way, that team would have been a lot more entertaining than tanking.

[Sparma]

Cool, if it happens. I'd think he could help them.

Also, it's fun to watch the two LA teams aspire to being Pistons West.

[Sparma]

A few thoughts:

As things have unfolded it's pretty hard to argue against the results of the rebuild thus far. We hit on a potential superstar when the highest odds, even after shameless tanking, were on landing on #5.

I agree with Phil that if we land the #3 choice or so next year, we'll be sitting pretty.

At the same time, it's hard to disagree with Murph that the point of this year is likely largely to lose big, while hoping for some signs of progress along the way.

I think Murph's strongest argument concerns that 44-38 season. But I think that argument primarily pertains to the Griffin trade. We shouldn't have done it. Maybe it was a time to go for broke, but not that way. I was one of many to say so at the time, along with Murph.

Getting into the playoffs with a .500 record was a different deal though. We got there mainly because Griffin had what many (but not me) describe as his best season. But it was pretty clear even late in that season and into the playoffs that wasn't such a sturdy, or reliable, foundation. In that way beginning to ponder a rebuild then didn't seem like such a bad idea.

What about beyond that? We had a lot of good or promising players who just didn't jell once Blake started falling apart. Several of those guys have done well elsewhere, and we have very little to show for jettisoning them

A case could have been made then for investing in the guys on hand, given their level of ability and promise (Drummond, Wood, Brown, Kennard, and others). Still, a good case could be made for blowing the whole thing up then, especially given the expected financial demands of Drummond (that didn't come to fruition) and Kennard (that did). I liked the Drummond, Kennard, Brown, and Christian Wood, core, but was also okay with going a different direction at that point. Not being willing to pay Christian Wood 13 mil while also stretching contracts so as to bring in Plumlee looked highly dubious at the time, and still doesn't look good, even though Plumlee had a very good season before being jettisoned with Weaver throwing draft capital (a drop in the second round) into the deal.

Phil's mention of Grant brings up a bone to pick. This season's unlikely to be a winning one, with Grant in his prime. Then, he's down to one year on his contract, likely to either walk or to be resigned going into his 30 y.o. season. I like Grant, and am happy to hear he's working on improving his mid-range game, but he's not an ideal building block moving forward.

So, at times, and in some ways, the rebuild seemed sensible and justified, at times not. But now that the basketball gods have looked upon us and we've drafted Cade, and we've got some other things going, I'm enthused about the rebuild and, yes, another year of tanking.

[Murph]

That said, I just can’t get excited about this team until it surpasses the level that we were at before the total rebuild.  The Drummond-Jackson team of 2015-16 was was 6 games over .500 (.537), and made the playoff, losing in the 1st round.  And the Drummond-Jackson-Griffin team of 2018-19 played .500, and make the playoffs, again losing in the 1st round.

This current rebuild roster has more talent then those two teams. Name 1 player from both of those teams who play harder then Isiah Stewart? Name one player from those teams who can shoot better then Bey?

Name one player from those team who has Cade Cunningham's potential?

Don't worry about making the playoffs. Trust the Process. Think about this for one second. What happens if the Pistons land a top 3 pick next summer, Cade wins rookie of the year, Bey and Steward continue to improve and become rock solid starting players, Saben Lee locks down the #2 PG position, Grant makes the All Star team and A few new guys step up and the Pistons stay injury free all season?

That's better then making the playoffs this season. That's how you start winning championships. F>uck the playoffs. Build a team that can win RINGS!!!  TRUST THE PROCESS!!!!

Marcus Morris, Reggie Bullock and Andre Drummond.

Phil...it's not that I don't trust the process.  It's that I don't like the process.  I can't stand waiting years and years with nothing to think about or talk about expect next years draft.  I mean hear we are in August, already hoping we lose enough games to get next year's #3 pick.  

Regular season games are meaningless.  In fact, you'd rather lose them than win them...for years and years. It's as if you aren't even trying...for years and years.

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