Ballin

[Oracle]

So they’re considering Seth Curry as a backup Pg and Jeff Green as understudy for a Jose Calderon style swan song season, supposedly at SF!?!?

Back it up a few years to reprise the Rodney Stuckey style mistake.  Or more recently to SVG telling us a diminutive LG can back up two positions to justify a gross overpay.  Jeff Green as a reprise of  Caron Butler and you see the thinking here, lack thereof.

So  just like good shooters always come here to die, is the FO doomed to repeat the errors of the past FOs.  

No more little SGs and no more corpse auditions.  Length, youth, tough aggression, athleticism should rule our upgrade desires.

Payton, Beverly, Collison, DeMarre Carroll, Dan House, Aminu, Terrence Ross, even Ariza on a bad day.  Please don’t tell me this stuff is indicative of their thinking.  Sheeeeeesh!

Misdirection?  I don’t really believe they are gonna do this, these are just rumors, but hell-to-the-No!  

Ballin, this is where I would like to see them go BOLD!

Don't go all youth, but take a chance on a mixture of youth and experience, it'll almost like getting an extra pick.

BTW, I just saw this about Svi: "Measured 6’8? with a 6’5? wingspan,  he sports a historically bad height to wingspan ratio."

[BallinD]

So they’re considering Seth Curry as a backup Pg and Jeff Green as understudy for a Jose Calderon style swan song season, supposedly at SF!?!?

Back it up a few years to reprise the Rodney Stuckey style mistake. Or more recently to SVG telling us a diminutive LG can back up two positions to justify a gross overpay. Jeff Green as a reprise of Caron Butler and you see the thinking here, lack thereof.

So just like good shooters always come here to die, is the FO doomed to repeat the errors of the past FOs.

No more little SGs and no more corpse auditions. Length, youth, tough aggression, athleticism should rule our upgrade desires.

Payton, Beverly, Collison, DeMarre Carroll, Dan House, Aminu, Terrence Ross, even Ariza on a bad day. Please don’t tell me this other stuff is indicative of their thinking. Sheeeeeesh!

Misdirection? I don’t really believe they are gonna do this, these are just rumors, but hell-to-the-No!

[Oracle]

So Drummond is NEVER going to lead any team... Who f**king cares?

Only people that hate him and use that as the criteria, which they only use because somebody told them that's the way it's supposed to be.

News Flash: Drummond is the key to winning a championship if the other pieces are there.

The Chicago Bulls hated the Pistons and nobody wanted the head case called Rodman, so why did they go after him with a vengeance and win championships with him?

Because they were smarter than the Drummond haters!

They know that if you've got guys who can score, what's the only thing you need after that... More Freaking Possessions!

Rodman and Drummond vacuum up rebounds like nobody in the history of the association, Hoover would be proud, and Rebounds=Possessions=Scoring.

So both of you are 100% correct, and that's why my preference is to keep him, because as soon as he's gone, we'll be looking for another Drummond, and they don't make rebounders like that except once in a blue moon, and they're usually Pistons any damn way... anybody remember Big Ben???

[Murph]

Sparma...I agree completely. Drummond is never going to lead this team. He is always going to be the Bill Laimbeer, acting as the 3rd or 4th option behind Zeke and Dumars, or the Ben Wallace, acting as the 5th option behind C-Bill, Rip, Sheed and Prince. Which is not to say Laimbeer and Wallace were not critically important components of their teams.

The Pistons need bring back Drummond, and then sign an alpha dog PG with all that money that will come off the books, and hope that Blake Griffin can maintain a high level of play for a few more years. They also need serious contributions from all of their young players, such as Kennard, Brown, Maker, Svi, Thomas and our two 2019 draft picks.

[Sparma]

I think Drummond could be a good contributor on a championship contending team. Specifically, he would have been on significant upgrade for the Cavs over the (also expensive) Tristan Thompson, with LeBron, Irving, and Love leading the way. Even now, I think he'd be quite a nice addition to the Lakers.

But I share the concern that others have expressed that he can't lead his teams into contention. At least, he hasn't done so yet. I don't see him being the Alpha dog leading leading the Pistons into contention, although I do think he could (and has) play an important role. The money you're citing, Murph, is probably realistic, but it's Alpha dog money, and I'm not convinced he's up to that role.

The good news: his PER's gone up two years running (in accord with my eye test of him showing moderate improvement), indicating that he may yet become that leader. I'm guessing we Piston fans will find out.

So far, it's looking like the team's just planning to tinker this summer, Murph, I agree.  Not too heartening for someone with my perspective.  I imagine that if they get off to a mediocre start we can expect to see big changes (like Reggie being traded) by the trade deadline.  Not a Reggie fan, but he really picked it up in the second half of the season and may well be preferable (for now!) to other available options, unless they swing the kind of trade for a vet name PG that I have some concern about.  But please no re-sign.

I enjoyed watching Pachulia play (old style Piston), but felt that he slipped as the season progressed.  He and Harden may be the guys most affected by the refs, unfortunately for us on opposite ends of the spectrum.  He's replaceable, maybe by Moreland whom you mention.

I'm more of a fan of Drum than most, but I hope, at least, that they can dodge the supermax extension with him.  Think he'd need to at least make 3rd team All NBA next season to be eligible for that.  I'd rather he be signed on a new max deal than leave for nothing, but I'd hope we'd be receptive for favorable opportunities to move him.  That said, I too would predict he's staying longterm, with Gores as owner.

I'm going out on a limb and predicting that Drummond and the Pistons negotiate a contract extension at the end of next season.  I'm guessing 5 years at $175 million.  I think the Pistons will want Drummond back and Drummond will be more than happy to stay in Detroit...a match made in heaven.  

Furthermore, I see Drummond becoming a Piston for life, and eventually developing into arguably the best Pistons center of all time.   Although I think his lack of an NBA Championship will always dog him.

You heard it here first.



Did KD just tear his achillies?  Yikes!  

If true, that's a game changer, not only for KD, but also for the Knicks or anyone else who was planning on signing him.

Sparma...maybe 5 years at $175 million is a little too rich for Drummond.  But he'll already be making $27 million a year next year.  I do not think a 5 year contract is unreasonable.  So 5 years at $27 million per is $135 million.  So let's just agree that Drummond is likely to sign another contract with the Pistons for 5 years at somewhere between $135 and $175 million, which doesn't represent a huge spread.  What's a few million among friends?

But either way, resigning Drummond is NOT going to represent a huge burden to the Pistons.  The Pistons will have $40 million coming off the books after next season (RJ, Leuer, Galloway, J.Smith).  If they spend roughly $5 million a year giving Drummond a pay raise, that will leave something like $35 million a year with which to sign a superstar PG (hopefully).  Then if Blake hasn't declined too much by then, we'll be good to go.  We might actually contend by 20-21.

[Murph]

Don...Jokic went 41st overall in 2014.  

That year, Joe traded our #1 pick to unload Ben Gordon's contact, and SVG used our 2nd round pick on Dinwiddie, who he cut.  

[cool breeze]

This is getting to be comical how the Pistons owner manages to screw up the potential of our Detroit Pistons future. Everything he has done involved his fixation with Andre Drummond who is not a player that fits the modern NBA. Somehow Denver has managed to rebuild their team in a very short time frame. They have a fantastic young center plus a team full of high energy players with really good potential. I have always liked Gary Harris who was one of my favorite college player when he was at MSU. Harris is still working hard at his game. But he has something that none of our Piston perimeter players possess. He can play effective hard nosed defense. This is something that the head coach likes to ignore about the players he decided to put into his rotation system this past season. Casey did not attempt to create a team that might excel in the future while knowing that as constructed the Pistons would have no chance if they did somehow make the playoffs. The owner said he wanted to win now. This is what he always says without having anything behind those words. They are just meaningless words spoken by an ownership group that has no clue what they are doing. Last year's draft was a good one. Tom Gores gave up our number one pick to get Griffin when no other team was competing for Blake's services. That is about as dumb as Joe Dumars throwing in Middleton in the trade for Brandon Jennings who also drew no interest from any other NBA team. Both situations show how inept our management was in making deals with other teams. This reminds me of how inept the USA government officials conducted themselves at the Yalta conference that created massive suffering when the Iron Curtain went up in Eastern Europe in the WW2 era. I have read the notes of the Yalta Conference and still cannot believe what went on. If only we could get a peak at how our Piston's management team negotiated over the two deals that I mention here we all would realize that "we are surrounded by idiots" as Dr. Evil once said in an Austin Powers movie.

We will look forward to another dull season with Casey plugging in Galloway, Jackson, and possibly Smith into the rotation sometimes playing at the same time against real NBA players. Why not throw Jon Leuer into that rotation with AD as the star?

I have been thinking about Bruce Brown. What can he do over the summer to take himself to the next level? I see great potential in Brown. He will have to function within a dysfunctional system under Casey's rule. I think Brown can become a good scorer if he can develop his mid range game. But I am sure Casey has instructed him to work on his 3 point shooting skills 100% of the time instead of developing a better all around game. I wish he could work with Luke over the summer. It seems that Luke works hard at his game and ignores Casey's edit that he gave to Johnson last summer. Work on your 3 point shot. This happened at Johnson's workout facility in California where he was working hard at what he knows he is good at - the mid range game. But you can't be successful in the mid range game if there is no ball or player movement or no screening. imagine how successful Hamilton might be in Casey's system. Rip ran around screens going from one side of the court to the other side to get himself open for the pass that always came from Mr. BigShot. Passes don't come easily at the right time when Reggie or Ish have the ball in their hands. They concentrate on their dribbling. This is the stuff that Casey approved of which was exactly like SVG. I still remember Pope and others standing for entire quarters never receiving a pass. The coach didn't want any screening or movement. Just stand on the baseline corner or the wing beyond the 3 point line. How easy is that to scout the Pistons?? Face it this owner wanted the same offensive system because he wanted to feature AD as much as possible. Facts are facts.

Take Blake out of the mix and you have the worst team in the NBA with the worst potential for the future. My only interest is in Brown and Kennard and possibly the two guys who sat on the bench all season and maybe the two new draft picks.

[Murph]

So far, it's looking like the team's just planning to tinker this summer, Murph, I agree.  Not too heartening for someone with my perspective.  I imagine that if they get off to a mediocre start we can expect to see big changes (like Reggie being traded) by the trade deadline.  Not a Reggie fan, but he really picked it up in the second half of the season and may well be preferable (for now!) to other available options, unless they swing the kind of trade for a vet name PG that I have some concern about.  But please no re-sign.

I enjoyed watching Pachulia play (old style Piston), but felt that he slipped as the season progressed.  He and Harden may be the guys most affected by the refs, unfortunately for us on opposite ends of the spectrum.  He's replaceable, maybe by Moreland whom you mention.

I'm more of a fan of Drum than most, but I hope, at least, that they can dodge the supermax extension with him.  Think he'd need to at least make 3rd team All NBA next season to be eligible for that.  I'd rather he be signed on a new max deal than leave for nothing, but I'd hope we'd be receptive for favorable opportunities to move him.  That said, I too would predict he's staying longterm, with Gores as owner.

I'm going out on a limb and predicting that Drummond and the Pistons negotiate a contract extension at the end of next season.  I'm guessing 5 years at $175 million.  I think the Pistons will want Drummond back and Drummond will be more than happy to stay in Detroit...a match made in heaven.  

Furthermore, I see Drummond becoming a Piston for life, and eventually developing into arguably the best Pistons center of all time.   Although I think his lack of an NBA Championship will always dog him.

You heard it here first.



Did KD just tear his achillies?  Yikes!  

If true, that's a game changer, not only for KD, but also for the Knicks or anyone else who was planning on signing him.

Sparma...maybe 5 years at $175 million is a little too rich for Drummond. But he'll already be making $27 million a year next year. I do not think a 5 year contract is unreasonable. So 5 years at $27 million per is $135 million. So let's just agree that Drummond is likely to sign another contract with the Pistons for 5 years at somewhere between $135 and $175 million, which doesn't represent a huge spread. What's a few million among friends?

But either way, resigning Drummond is NOT going to represent a huge burden to the Pistons. The Pistons will have $40 million coming off the books after next season (RJ, Leuer, Galloway, J.Smith). If they spend roughly $5 million a year giving Drummond a pay raise, that will leave something like $35 million a year with which to sign a superstar PG (hopefully). Then if Blake hasn't declined too much by then, we'll be good to go. We might actually contend by 20-21.

[cool breeze]

Again, I hate to obsess about the news feed, but there's an article on potential reserve centers the Pistons could bring in for next year.  

First, it doesn't look as if the Pistons have any interest in bringing back Zaza.  Too bad.  I enjoyed watching him play, in the first half of the season, at least.

And second, the article mentioned both Aaron Baynes and Eric Moreland.    I would go for either of those guys, or both.  Baynes could probably be had for $6 million per for 3 years.  And Moreland could be signed for next to nothing.  Both those guys are tough competitors and good, energetic defenders.

If we brought in Seth Curry for Ish, Baynes and maybe Moreland, and drafted two big, athletic SFs who can shoot...that would represent a major upgrade to the roster.  Yes, each move might be incremental, but together they'd represent significant improvement for an affordable sum of money.

This is one of the times when they come up with good stuff.

While I agree with Lemonpen that the youngster should provide a better bench, backup center is the area they can't.

I'm leaning toward Baynes over Moreland after watching both play. Baynes has lost weight and is much more mobile than he used to be, which was my major complaint about him, but he may want more than we want to pay, where as Moreland can be had on the cheap... either would give us the few minutes we need between Blake & Drummond.

Hey Murph and Oracle you have forgotten that the Pistons have Jon Leuer. Come on Casey has his man. The Pistons could have picked up Moreland for next to nothing last fall. Casey felt that he had enough on his mind trying to rid the team of Henry E. You see there can be no competition for playing time for the high contract players. Casey is that way. I don't mean to blame him But Casey showed me that he didn't give a hoot about the importance of defense. He also targeted Johnson as a guy he didn't want. Whaat if the Pistons had developed a real half court offense that featured ball and player movement and mid range uncontested shots instead of standing in place hoping that either Ish or Reggie would pass the statue players the ball. This a the recipe for bad team chemistry. Boston has that brand of flu. The Pistons chemistry was better when Blake Played but the team was helpless when he couldn't. Sorry I do love both of your idea and well thought out posts. Just trying to be funny here but there is some truth to what I have said. Casey rid the team of defenders and played players who were not only horrible defenders but too small for their positions. Toronto owner was smart to hire the current head coach who actually is a real basketball coach and not a player and owner pleaser. What is Casey's position on player only meetings? Would he stand his ground against the owners wishes? I think not.

A lot of Piston fans do not like M. Morris but he has played well in the playoffs again. I think that Morris has spread the word around the NBA that it is not a good thing to sign or be traded to the Pistons. He was the guy who organized the players only meeting. All he wanted was for the team to be something more than Reggie and AD playing pick and roll with Reggie and AD playing at half speed on defense. How can fans forget the real history of what this team was like when those two were the team leaders? It is as if that never happened. They were both satisfied at being in it for themselves as highlight players at that time. How can players like that change? I am not saying that they were not better this season. For sure they played harder. But I will say it again. AD and RJ are not winning type players. Other NBA vets do not want to be on their team. RJ has old legs and cannot play reasonable defense. AD plays 25 to 30 pounds over weight.

[Oracle]

1. NBA Team CAP Tracker
2. Realtime sortable list of active contracts

Quickies:
1. Drummond's Contract
2. Blake's Contract

I found this while looking for Gordon Hayward's contract status because the Celtics have pretty much given up on him. Unfortunately, he's WAY overpaid, and even if he regained his form, I'm not sure he's worth it.

[Oracle]

Great discussion !!!

IMO teams like the Warriors can afford to worry about backups, but our FO ought to be focused on making our starting group more competitive.  If we play our cards right the kids should provide necessary bench improvement.  Our starters can not keep getting their arse's kicked in 3rd quarters.  Whoever is being considered as b/u PG better have the capability to start (given RJs injury history and status as an expiring deal). - Good Observation!

Funny thing, some of you worry about losing Andre early as he opts out of his contract for greener pastures, while I worry about him exercising his option to stick around.  
I'm sure his agent will spend the year investigating Drummonds value as an UFA.  - IMO, the jury is out. Everything depends on his play this coming year, and if the past is prolog, I'm betting that the improvements are very good for us. I still don't think he could live up to another max contract though, so a trade or S&T remain a possibility.

I look forward to the next trade deadline.  With 34 mil in dying deals we could be sitting in a VERY enviable position.  (a) raise playoff ceiling by trading for a high impact rental player (ie A. Davis),  (b) obtain an impact player who may be given up on, but having a few years remaining on his contract (ie G. Hayward), obtain draft picks, or do nothing and wait to make a big splash in free agency.  2020 should be the most interesting year in a long time. - This is what I've been crowing about, we're in a good position to make some radical changes. My biggest fear is that we somehow blow it. Not that I don't trust them, I just scare easy 

Am I being a poor sport for rooting against "The Process"(NO).  Is this becoming a fork-in-the-road year for Simmons and 76'ers.  His slip is showing and Philly has demonstrated little patience for struggling youngsters.

Celtics:   My, my, my how thing change.  A year ago The C's rookies were the toast of the town.  Sophomore Slump ??  It's official, Kyrie isn't Batman and apparently doesn't want to be.  He will command a lot of dough to be Robin.  - IMO, the rookies slumped because of Kyrie. They were great when he wasn't hogging the ball and playing Batman. This year they had to adjust to seeing the ball less and trying to stay in rhythm.

Raptors:  Dang is Leonard goooood.  He is Barry Sanders in short pants.  Patience galore, never seeming to rush, or become too high / low.  Dude pulls off a spectacular elevation & dunk in a crowd, then trots off like nothing happened.  - Good comparison, I love me some Kawhi!

LeBron:  In order to entice Durrant, Davis or Leonard, will The Chosen have to be prepared/convinced to assume the role Shaq did for D. Wade.  That of a Second Banana.  Not a spare part, but no longer THE MAN. - For Durant or Kawhi, it's the ONLY option, Davis probably would care less.

Speaking of the Process, Jalen Rose dishes the dirt on the Sixers, and he's point on!

[Oracle]

You are one Piston-loving muthaducka.  I love your optimistic homerism and find it inspiring even though a part of me thinks you’re an enabler.  The biggest thing I see is like a look in the mirror, though I think I am more critical my Pistons love is steadfast.  Coach Bud is outstanding and Boston is better than us.

But dammit you’re right, at our best w’re not far off, we need an infusion of talent and toughness and a lot of luck, most of all, we need a good draft.  Here’s to turning a corner.  Go Pistons!

I am a homer at times, but I think I'm calling this one as I see it, and I don't mind admitting when they suck.

I think people really want another championship, and I do too, but to be honest, the drama of competing, even for the last 3 spots beats the hell out of meaningless games and waiting for the lottery.

We at least have a team that should finish somewhere between 6-8 and 4-8 with some upgrades.

I've always believed that if you keep going in the right direction, you can position yourself to have the opportunity to surprise. It's always been a process for the Pistons, we've never just woke up and were championship contenders.

News Flash: The process can be fun too

[Oracle]

Again, I hate to obsess about the news feed, but there's an article on potential reserve centers the Pistons could bring in for next year.  

First, it doesn't look as if the Pistons have any interest in bringing back Zaza.  Too bad.  I enjoyed watching him play, in the first half of the season, at least.

And second, the article mentioned both Aaron Baynes and Eric Moreland.    I would go for either of those guys, or both.  Baynes could probably be had for $6 million per for 3 years.  And Moreland could be signed for next to nothing.  Both those guys are tough competitors and good, energetic defenders.

If we brought in Seth Curry for Ish, Baynes and maybe Moreland, and drafted two big, athletic SFs who can shoot...that would represent a major upgrade to the roster.  Yes, each move might be incremental, but together they'd represent significant improvement for an affordable sum of money.

This is one of the times when they come up with good stuff.

While I agree with Lemonpen that the youngster should provide a better bench, backup center is the area they can't.

I'm leaning toward Baynes over Moreland after watching both play. Baynes has lost weight and is much more mobile than he used to be, which was my major complaint about him, but he may want more than we want to pay, where as Moreland can be had on the cheap... either would give us the few minutes we need between Blake & Drummond.

[Sparma]

So far, it's looking like the team's just planning to tinker this summer, Murph, I agree. Not too heartening for someone with my perspective. I imagine that if they get off to a mediocre start we can expect to see big changes (like Reggie being traded) by the trade deadline. Not a Reggie fan, but he really picked it up in the second half of the season and may well be preferable (for now!) to other available options, unless they swing the kind of trade for a vet name PG that I have some concern about. But please no re-sign.

I enjoyed watching Pachulia play (old style Piston), but felt that he slipped as the season progressed. He and Harden may be the guys most affected by the refs, unfortunately for us on opposite ends of the spectrum. He's replaceable, maybe by Moreland whom you mention.

I'm more of a fan of Drum than most, but I hope, at least, that they can dodge the supermax extension with him. Think he'd need to at least make 3rd team All NBA next season to be eligible for that. I'd rather he be signed on a new max deal than leave for nothing, but I'd hope we'd be receptive for favorable opportunities to move him. That said, I too would predict he's staying longterm, with Gores as owner.

I'm going out on a limb and predicting that Drummond and the Pistons negotiate a contract extension at the end of next season.  I'm guessing 5 years at $175 million.  I think the Pistons will want Drummond back and Drummond will be more than happy to stay in Detroit...a match made in heaven.  

Furthermore, I see Drummond becoming a Piston for life, and eventually developing into arguably the best Pistons center of all time.   Although I think his lack of an NBA Championship will always dog him.

You heard it here first.



Did KD just tear his achillies?  Yikes!  

If true, that's a game changer, not only for KD, but also for the Knicks or anyone else who was planning on signing him.

[Murph]

I'm going out on a limb and predicting that Drummond and the Pistons negotiate a contract extension at the end of next season.  I'm guessing 5 years at $175 million.  I think the Pistons will want Drummond back and Drummond will be more than happy to stay in Detroit...a match made in heaven.  

Furthermore, I see Drummond becoming a Piston for life, and eventually developing into arguably the best Pistons center of all time.   Although I think his lack of an NBA Championship will always dog him.

You heard it here first.



Did KD just tear his achillies?  Yikes!

If true, that's a game changer, not only for KD, but also for the Knicks or anyone else who was planning on signing him.

[lemonpen]

Great discussion !!!

IMO teams like the Warriors can afford to worry about backups, but our FO ought to be focused on making our starting group more competitive. If we play our cards right the kids should provide necessary bench improvement. Our starters can not keep getting their arse's kicked in 3rd quarters. Whoever is being considered as b/u PG better have the capability to start (given RJs injury history and status as an expiring deal).

Funny thing, some of you worry about losing Andre early as he opts out of his contract for greener pastures, while I worry about him exercising his option to stick around.
I'm sure his agent will spend the year investigating Drummonds value as an UFA.

I look forward to the next trade deadline. With 34 mil in dying deals we could be sitting in a VERY enviable position. (a) raise playoff ceiling by trading for a high impact rental player (ie A. Davis), (b) obtain an impact player who may be given up on, but having a few years remaining on his contract (ie G. Hayward), obtain draft picks, or do nothing and wait to make a big splash in free agency. 2020 should be the most interesting year in a long time.

Am I being a poor sport for rooting against "The Process". Is this becoming a fork-in-the-road year for Simmons and 76'ers. His slip is showing and Philly has demonstrated little patience for struggling youngsters.

Celtics: My, my, my how thing change. A year ago The C's rookies were the toast of the town. Sophomore Slump ?? It's official, Kyrie isn't Batman and apparently doesn't want to be. He will command a lot of dough to be Robin.

Raptors: Dang is Leonard goooood. He is Barry Sanders in short pants. Patience galore, never seeming to rush, or become too high / low. Dude pulls off a spectacular elevation & dunk in a crowd, then trots off like nothing happened.

LeBron: In order to entice Durrant, Davis or Leonard, will The Chosen have to be prepared/convinced to assume the role Shaq did for D. Wade. That of a Second Banana. Not a spare part, but no longer THE MAN.

[Murph]

Again, I hate to obsess about the news feed, but there's an article on potential reserve centers the Pistons could bring in for next year.  

First, it doesn't look as if the Pistons have any interest in bringing back Zaza.  Too bad.  I enjoyed watching him play, in the first half of the season, at least.

And second, the article mentioned both Aaron Baynes and Eric Moreland.    I would go for either of those guys, or both.  Baynes could probably be had for $6 million per for 3 years.  And Moreland could be signed for next to nothing.  Both those guys are tough competitors and good, energetic defenders.


If we brought in Seth Curry for Ish, Baynes and maybe Moreland, and drafted two big, athletic SFs who can shoot...that would represent a major upgrade to the roster.  Yes, each move might be incremental, but together they'd represent significant improvement for an affordable sum of money.

[BallinD]

You are one Piston-loving muthaducka. I love your optimistic homerism and find it inspiring even though a part of me thinks you’re an enabler. The biggest thing I see is like a look in the mirror, though I think I am more critical my Pistons love is steadfast. Coach Bud is outstanding and Boston is better than us.

But dammit you’re right, at our best w’re not far off, we need an infusion of talent and toughness and a lot of luck, most of all, we need a good draft. Here’s to turning a corner. Go Pistons!

[Oracle]

The Bucks SWEPT(5 game sweep) the Celtics out of the playoffs, beating the crap out of them. Not as badly as they beat the Pistons, but damn close.

Most people would say that the Celtics are more talented than the Pistons and coached as well, and some would say better(not me).

The Celtics were mostly healthy, missing Smart, but got him back late, it didn't make one bit of difference.

YET, people trash the Pistons when we were clearly weakened because of the loss of Griffin.

I'm not saying we don't need upgrades, but we aren't total trash either. We have something that we can build around with good coaching. IMO, we're going to get better players, it just won't be as fast as most of us(me included) would like, but we're going to be competitive.

Durango is likely out for the rest of this series... can the Warriors beat Houston now? Frankly, I don't know, but this one is VERY likely going the distance!

[Sparma]

Oracle, I already had said that GS could sign all those guys to a max contract, so clearly the issue isn't just about max salaries, but about max salaries (and lesser salaries) in relation to the negotiated rules.  Indeed, GS could sign else on their roster to max deals without worry about an upper limit (according to the rule you cited earlier).  That's because they could use exceptions to the general rule (#25). What can't happen is for the Pistons to sign even one of star from another team to a max contract this summer, let alone four of them (which should be POSSIBLE according to your assertion) because there's a general rule (#25) to which there isn't an applicable exception that they can apply to an outside max player, given their existing cap situation.  It's the claim that it's not about resigning [where exceptions, Bird Rights, apply] but that a team like the Pistons could in principle sign one max player after another from another team that's clearly contrary to NBA regulations.

That much is pretty simple.  Lemonpen stated it straightforwardly, pointing you to the facts of the regulation.  If that didn't suffice, it's probably not worth bothering with further attempts at persuasion.

Of course, the dispute has a ton to do with the Pistons, because if you were right, the owner -- who said he's willing to go into luxury tax -- could simply spend us out of trouble.  He can't.  If I'm right, his assertion doesn't mean much this summer as the team would struggle to get into luxury tax territory at all, let alone enough to really change the team's fortunes.  Also, if I'm right, it looks like our cap situation puts us in a real pickle, one not subject this summer to even possible solutions of the sort your assertion suggest are in principle available.  Signing a max player FA (from another team) would move the needle, so I'll keep my eye out for the first story by a reputable journal about that as a possibility for the Pistons this summer, and would encourage you to post such a story to the forum too.

@Sparma, you keep getting hung up on things, you keep repeating MAX contract and it's totally irrelevant to any discussion. Could a team sign 5 max players if they were rookie and 4th year maxes? Max has nothing to do with it, it's the amount. I posted two articles that show you exactly how to do what I said, but you don't seem to see it's all an exercise in futility, no rational person, correction businessman, would do such a thing.

I explained that just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should, doing so would wreck you organization. I'm capped out on this one because it has little to do with the Pistons, even though it was a decent diversion into the theoretical, if not the heretical 

@Ballin/@Elephants:  You NAILED that one, and Drummond certainly qualifies as an elephant  . Wow, we're back in that territory again, approaching losing guys without a shred of compensation, and I can't deal with that level of SVG insanity again. BTW, I'm still trying to sell the bridges I bought from SVG's azz!
We're going to be forced into making a hard decision, and you're right, if we dump Drummond, we may as well start a full rebuild. Damn, Wise may be right 

[Oracle]

@Sparma, you keep getting hung up on things, you keep repeating MAX contract and it's totally irrelevant to any discussion. Could a team sign 5 max players if they were rookie and 4th year maxes? Max has nothing to do with it, it's the amount. I posted two articles that show you exactly how to do what I said, but you don't seem to see it's all an exercise in futility, no rational person, correction businessman, would do such a thing.

I explained that just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should, doing so would wreck you organization. I'm capped out on this one because it has little to do with the Pistons, even though it was a decent diversion into the theoretical, if not the heretical 

@Ballin/@Elephants:  You NAILED that one, and Drummond certainly qualifies as an elephant  . Wow, we're back in that territory again, approaching losing guys without a shred of compensation, and I can't deal with that level of SVG insanity again. BTW, I'm still trying to sell the bridges I bought from SVG's azz!
We're going to be forced into making a hard decision, and you're right, if we dump Drummond, we may as well start a full rebuild. Damn, Wise may be right 

[Sparma]

Wise, yes, I think the Pistons' cap problem raises huge challenges to the Pistons' improving dramatically and quickly, the owner's stated willingness to pay luxury tax notwithstanding.

It might be useful to go back to the statement by Oracle yesterday that I bookmarked as a statement of our differences.

Oracle: "BTW, the Lakers and Clippers and damn near any NBA team can and will sign as many MAX contract players as they like... NOT resigning them... so can the Pistons!"

The collective bargaining agreement cited by Lemonpen does depict really complicated matters that I'm guessing only a handful of people have mastered, not least because of its 598 pages.  I'm not one of those people.

Lemonpen's helpfully provided us with chapter and verse in a simplifying document.  

Concerning #25, on one level, thing are pretty simple: there's a general rule, to which there are exceptions.

I just don't see how Oracle's general statement above can be made to fit with #25.  I do see how the exceptions listed would allow GS, in principle, to sign Durant, Green, Thompson, and Cousins to max deals without hitting a ceiling; I don't see how Detroit signing even one of them to a max deal this summer fits with the rule, let allow all four, which is in principle a POSSIBILITY if Oracle's statement is to be believed.  Where are the applicable exceptions in that clause that would make it possible.

Beyond that, the evidence is all around (as I suggested in a series of remarks and questions) that the league just doesn't work the way Oracle's statement indicates it could.  Why?  Why, for instance, didn't the Nets' former Russian owner skyrocket to the top, even though he claimed his extreme wealth and generosity would get that done, as it has (some years) for Chelsea's extremely rich Russian owner or for Manchester City's incredibly rich UAB ownership? Did he decide to pal up once he met NBA owners and refrain gentlemanly from acting on the kind of assertion made by Oracle?  No, he figured out that building a team while abiding by the collective bargaining agreement doesn't allow the actions that Oracle claims the league does allow.  The evidence's all around that's not how the NBA works, precisely because of the painstakingly negotiated provisions regarding cap structure cited by Lemonpen.

[BallinD]

Yes the elephant’s in the room. I posted this B4 a couple weeks ago, but it bears repeating, and this is why “The Window” is so important:

@WTF: “What's really funny is how every article I read is about how the team don't want to spend money or can't spend money. But something else caught me eye in reading these turd articles. You all do realize this that (next) season is AD final season here anyway. I'm going to go out on a limb and say AD will opt out that last year of his contract (gut feeling) and move on. I'm sure his agent is already in his ear on this and selling that idea so really the Pistons need to be trying to trade him this year anyway. IMO”

Otherwise...Otherwise, Dre joins Moose, KCP, who walked and we got nothing for them, the few FRPs that somewhat worked out for us. So either next year is it (all-in on this pre-aborted run past mediocrity ) or just give up already; unless you really believe you can win with Blake, Luke and cannon fodder alone and then I tell you come look at this nice bridge I’ma sell you.

[Oracle]

Yes, it's complicated for no reason, IMO, but there's the CAP, the Luxury line, and the Apron, and if you want, you can blow through all of them, but only if you follow the rules. Sparma didn't believe that you could, I was just showing it is possible, but he'll likely never stop squirming about this, he has a active mind and that's a good thing.

The real deal, and why I entered the conversation in the first place was because I felt that people believed that just because Gores said he would go over the CAP, they were looking to spend his money and expecting a Durant type deal.

Part of the reason they have these rules is to make it so very unattractive to "Buy" a championship, folks won't do it, and while you can blow through all of the limits, you'll wreck your organization doing it.

The way I see this is that Gores is saying that if we found a player that we lack some of the funding for, he's willing to go into the luxury tax, but NOT for the full salary. Because the way the luxury tax works is that the penalty you pay goes to funding your opponents, and that's just too crazy for any businessman to deal with.

PG: Who's got Next - The first step is to figure out who's available. If nobody fits there, look for who may be traded for, teams may want to upgrade like we do, or just want out. It's easier to see who's available, but I still think that we stand pat unless something jumps out at us.

BTW, I do think we'll see the team that was playing really well out of the gate this time, and that'll be an upgrade on its own, and add growth from youngsters, and we should be good until the Feb deadline when I think Reggie is gone for sure(hopefully).

There's no cap issues in a massive rebuild    Okay so I'm tickled by this cap discussion because only two days ago there was discussion about this great plan to carry with business as usual.   This capped discussion sound just like all the other issues preventing this team to move forward in a meaningful and productive manner.  

Other funny things was the discussion about Rose or Curry, much rather be talking about upgrading a starting position than replacing Ish as if solving that somehow put this team over the top.   Can't wait for the day my eyes scroll over to the right and one of the headlines read Piston in a Mega Deal Dumps RJ, AD, and BG In Major Rebuilding Effort.     Beside it's only name recognition in play here nothing more, Seth is not turning into Steph and Rose's really do smell like boo! boo!.  

Cap rules well I'm sure there's always a way to circumvent the rules, I'm sure with some creative thinking any thing is possible even exceeding the lux with minimum negative results.   Still don't understand this discussion because you all were just full of certainty that a plan was in place already and that the team is on the right path.  Path to accomplishing what I don't know since all three players will be gone in the next couple of seasons.

What's really funny is how every article I read is about how the team don't want to spend money or can't spend money.  But something else caught me eye in reading these turd articles.  You all do realize this that season is AD final season here anyway.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say AD will opt out that last year of his contract (gut feeling) and move on.   I'm sure his agent is already in his ear on this and selling that idea so really the Pistons need to be trying to trade him this year anyway.  IMO

[Sparma]

According to #25 of the summarizing document cited by Lemonpen (the original that he cites is 598 pages; I did some perusing):

"The basic rule of the NBA's salary cap is that a team can't sign a player or make a trade that leaves the team's team salary above the cap, unless the team is using an exception. In a system with a soft cap, exceptions are the mechanisms that allow teams to function while above the cap. Some exceptions are available only for making trades, and are described in detail starting in question number 84. The exceptions available for signing players are as follows1:"

The various exceptions that follow can be discussed, but I don't see a one that accords with the assertion that a team in the Pistons' cap situation COULD sign a max player free agent from another team (like Durant) this summer so long as they were willing to pay the luxury tax.

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