A better than expected draft night

[Sparma]

If we could develop a tough, deep, defensively minded team -- aided by Thomas and Brown, but also by a rejuvenated Stanley Johnson -- this could be a fun team to watch.

Maybe this front office has a real sense of direction!?

[Murph]

DX and Oracle...excellent posts.  

I especially like the trade for Thomas.  This trade should particularly appeal to Don, who has been calling for us to trade for a 1st round pick.  That's essentially what we just did.  Thomas was projected to go in the mid to late 1st round.  He's an outstanding defender and shooter.  He's the strongest player in the draft, he won Big East defensive player of the year 2 years in a row...and did I mention he can defend and shoot.  

Brown is a bit of a while card, due to the fact that he is coming off a lingering injury.  Earlier in the season, he was projected to go in the late 1st round, early 2nd round.  If he recovers completely from his foot injury, he will be a steal.  He's big, strong, athletic when healthy...and a good defender.

Well done Stefanski…


We should invite Trevon Duval to play with the summer league team. He went undrafted.

[Oracle]

Wise, just let me say one more thing about how many wins to expect.

IMO, if we look for a number, we're already missing the point.

Larry Brown sacrificed wins during the season, in exchange for getting better.

If we're a team to fear by the end of the season in the playoffs, number of wins won't mean nearly as much!

That's the measuring stick I prefer to use for this team.

[Oracle]

DX said it, and so is everyone else... we just drafted two tenacious pit bulls! Make no mistake, these are "Statement Picks", we're going back to Detroit Basketball, the kind of ball that says we'll score and you won't... your move Mofo!

How do you best defend the paint? You stop or slow down perimeter players before they can even get there. Defense starts on the perimeter, and we just got two guys that are EXCELLENT doing that. It's going to take some time for them to adjust to the NBA game and speed, but these guys have the strength, wingspan and BBallIQ to get the job done.

Make no mistake, both of these guys are mid 1st round talent! While it doesn't offset losing that 1st round pick, this move certainly eases the blow.

Last thing before the videos, the comparisons to NBA talent is very refreshing, with the Avery Bradly comparison most striking. Oddly, Brown, the larger of the two is the one that can double as PG, where as Thomas, while smaller is more of a 2, but with his strength and wing span, he terrorizes on defense. The one thing you know when you draft defenders(Afflalo, KCP), they will ALWAYS give you maximum effort and rarely take plays off!

Fast forward to the 5:04 mark of this video to see Brown

[Oracle]

Thomas/Brown...Pit bulls 2.0? Lock down defense coming off the bench resulted in contributing to a championship. Grade A- Totally agree with that score, I might even go as far as giving them a solid A(more on that later)

I'm not going to kiss SVG's ass by assuming he'd get 55 wins out of the team he put together next season; the subliminal suggestion, to me is, any coach that comes in and coaches this cockamamie that SVG constructed to less than 55 wins coming out the gate is a failure is B.S. based on frustration due to my impatience....46+ wins the first year and possibly a first round playoff victory...52+ wins the second year and definitely first & second round victories at least...anything less than competing in the ECF (winning will be great) with 55+ win season I'd consider a big disappointment and I'm raising a brow at the lot of them! We should be rooting for a team that's competing for a championship in the next three years or somethings really wrong. This is pretty much what Murph posted and it's logical to me. While Wise is right, this team, if healthy, should be capable of 54/55 wins, it's crazy to place that as an expectation for several reasons, not the least of which is 1) learning a new system and 2) There is no chemistry between the big three, and until that develops, we'll have three players playing, not a team.

Hopefully this is the year when Reggie Jackson and Jon Leuer can no longer hide behind the smokescreen of favoritism and misplaced fan sentimentality; Stefanski and Casey have watched both of them for years and realize not only are they overpaid, are not championship contributors, and in Reggie's case, a potential season destroying player due to lingering health issues; I'm not hating the men, I'm pulling for the team! Blake Griffin is a health concern but, he brings an entirely different dynamic to the team. Here's some sh!t I know no one wants to hear, but it's true; Will Bynum was a more reliable and prolific scorer than Reggie, plus he ran the P & R with Drummond to perfection and we hated him! Jon Leuer was signed as a FA to replace Anthony Tolliver and today AT is more valuable to the team (locker room and on the floor) than Leuer, but we can't offer him a decent/reasonable contract...half of what Leuer is pulling down would be decent and reasonable. I never hated Bynum, I just thought he was best coming off the bench until we could do better... sadly we never did for the most part. The good news is that Casey has never mentioned Leuer.

However, Casey has mentioned that our future depends on getting the most out of Stanley, Kennard and Ellenson, and that's even better news, because if we can get two of the three to step up, this team is on FIRE!!!

I'm kind of liking what's shaping up so far and can't wait to see what the summer yields. Oh, I loved the way Casey handled his press conference, very impressive. He looked like the adult in the room, totally in command of the situation... YES, I was very impressed!

DX, you seriously need to post more often!

[deusXango]

Thomas/Brown...Pit bulls 2.0? Lock down defense coming off the bench resulted in contributing to a championship. Grade A-

I'm not going to kiss SVG's ass by assuming he'd get 55 wins out of the team he put together next season; the subliminal suggestion, to me is, any coach that comes in and coaches this cockamamie that SVG constructed to less than 55 wins coming out the gate is a failure is B.S. based on frustration due to my impatience....46+ wins the first year and possibly a first round playoff victory...52+ wins the second year and definitely first & second round victories at least...anything less than competing in the ECF (winning will be great) with 55+ win season I'd consider a big disappointment and I'm raising a brow at the lot of them! We should be rooting for a team that's competing for a championship in the next three years or somethings really wrong. This is pretty much what Murph posted and it's logical to me.

Hopefully this is the year when Reggie Jackson and Jon Leuer can no longer hide behind the smokescreen of favoritism and misplaced fan sentimentality; Stefanski and Casey have watched both of them for years and realize not only are they overpaid, are not championship contributors, and in Reggie's case, a potential season destroying player due to lingering health issues; I'm not hating the men, I'm pulling for the team! Blake Griffin is a health concern but, he brings an entirely different dynamic to the team. Here's some sh!t I know no one wants to hear, but it's true; Will Bynum was a more reliable and prolific scorer than Reggie, plus he ran the P & R with Drummond to perfection and we hated him! Jon Leuer was signed as a FA to replace Anthony Tolliver and today AT is more valuable to the team (locker room and on the floor) than Leuer, but we can't offer him a decent/reasonable contract...half of what Leuer is pulling down would be decent and reasonable.

I'm kind of liking what's shaping up so far and can't wait to see what the summer yields. Oh, I loved the way Casey handled his press conference, very impressive.

[Sparma]

No, no, but yes to a tweak.

ad No 1) As a fan, I'm not happy with the construction or direction of the team.  I think I've been the biggest pleader for tanking, something I've let up on post-Griffin trade just because I think it'd be extremely difficult to implement effectively at this point.

This team is really hard to root for.  I doubt I'll be excited about this team unless somehow, against my expectations, they get to the level of contention that you describe, Wise.

ad No #2)  Am I okay with 46 wins each of the next three years?  Well, no, not really.  What I'd count as "good" in relation to expectations would be moving beyond the 44, 45 wins I envisioned, into the 46-55 wins.  So Wise pins me to 46 wins three years running.  Maybe you've got me, but I'll offer an example to try to extricate myself from a spot I don't want to be in.  Imagine that I think my daughter, who's been a C student except for that one B she earned, will have done well if she scores between 87 (B+) and 93 (A-) in each of three courses she's about to take.  As it happens, she scores the lowest possible number, 87, that I see as being in the good range in the good range in each of the three courses.  I'd be disappointed, hoping she be at the average within the range, rather than at the low each time.  

ad Yes to a tweak) Similarly, I'd hope that the Pistons could score at the average in the range that I see as "good" relative to expectations, namely 50.  Remember that I was trying to set out a concrete, achievement-based, scale for thinking about how well Casey was doing.  I'd certainly think that Casey had done a good job if the team averaged 50 wins the next three years.  And I'd likely think that the team had fulfilled its potential well (if they draft the next Dennis Rodman tonight, I might need to tweak that).  In that sense, I'd be okay with the coach and the team scoring at the average of 50 wins in the range I specified.  In fact, I'd think it a remarkable feat, one that would put Casey in contention for another Coach of the Year.

But it likely still wouldn't be a very exciting team, or one with a high ceiling, which takes us back to #1....

[Murph]

The latest mock draft from Draftnet has Duke PG Trevon Duval falling to us at #42.  I have to say, I'd take a flyer on that kid.  He was highly recruited out of high school, and spent most of the season on the draft boards as a mid 1st round pick.  He must have had bad workouts to fall that far in the mock drafts.  

He's rated well for his defense, athleticism, passing and ball handling.  His one fatal flaw is his poor shooting, but he's only 20, so his poor shooting might be fixable.


If Duval's gone, I'd go for Javon Carter, a defensive minded PG out of West Virginia.  Carter is 22 and he's only 6'1, so he doesn't have as much upside.  But he's smart, he shoots well, and he plays tenacious defense, which is something that's in short supply on the Pistons.


The best player still available in the draft at #42 will probably be the Kentucky freshman SF Jarred Vanderbilt.  He's 19 years old, big (6'9), athletic and is ranked high for his defense.  But of course, he's going to be another project.  He probably has the highest upside of the three, but I don't know if Pistons fans have enough patience at this point to wait through the development of another 19 year old SF, who may or may not eventually pan out.


Nevertheless, the good news is that there's going to be some serious talent still available at #42, and if anyone can successful develop one of these guys, it's Dwane Casey.

[Murph]

Over the next 3 years under Casey, with this roster, I would be satisfied with one 50 win season, 3 trips to the playoffs, and 1 trip to the second round.

I realize that’s a pretty low bar, but under the circumstances, I think that’s all we can hope for. Anything more will be a bonus, IMO.

In the meantime, we can work through bad contracts, hopefully clear some cap space, maybe acquire a high first round pick, draft well, and try to develop our young players and draft picks, so that we can eventually move forward as a real contender.

[cool breeze]

Making any sense of Tom Gores decisions is impossible. The Pistons are softer and more dysfunctional today roster wise than they were last fall. I also believe the team is less athletic than the team that started the regular season last fall. As ESPN recently pointed out, the Clippers got the best of the trade Mr. Gores himself orchestrated. Tobias Harris is projected to become a young outstanding player. The NBA has some incredible guards on almost every team with the exception of the Pistons. Banking on Reggie Jackson who is a huge liability on defense to be competitive with those proven star guards offensively is ridiculous. Meanwhile the Pistons are in a pinch financially because of incompetence by Piston management over paying players who were not even in their previous team's rotation. You can't make this stuff up with how badly the planning has been by this owner.

Everyone who is worth their salt as a GM knows that if you have an average or below average team like the Pistons you need to shed salaries and get on a new plan for success instead of marching out the same players who keep on losing not because of good or bad coaching but because the opposing players who play our players are just better players who play harder than our players. You never win anything when there is any talk about lack of basic effort. We all know that we have players on this team who make big money and have played in a lot of games where the Pistons lost who have been accused of lack of engagement or lack of interest in playing the right way. why should any self respecting Piston fan watch this team? There is zero chance the Pistons can win a championship. This team is built to compete for the 8th playoff spot. Can they do it? Are you excited? Instead of selling of any tradable player to reduce salary to secure first round draft picks, this owner is trying to sell fans on snake oil. Maybe he has been reading books on PT Barum who was famous for saying there is a sucker born every minute.

The truth comes out tonight where our Pistons are left once again without any first round draft pick. We need the number one overall pick but we get nothing because on a whim, this owner threw in our number one pick in the Blake Griffin trade that will go down in history as the dumbest Piston trade of all time even worse than the Iverson-Billups trade.

In all fairness to Brandon Knight who did have the spirit of a winner, he had to play with Greg Monroe and Jason Maxiell. There were no mentors for this young kid when he arrived in the draft. No point guard could have success on that team he played on in Detroit. Yet he became a really good defender and always gave a fantastic effort which is something that has been a real question mark for some of our current players like Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond. I never saw Knight take a play off like our two knucklehead pets of Tom Gores. I predict the same story this coming season. The Pistons will start out really good winning games and looking competitive. Then by December the wheels will come off again like always when our players lose interest and begin faking it big time. The reaching will be prevalent on defense by RJ and AD. They will look baffled often when opposing teams get easy layups. Tom Gores banks on Piston fans having short memories. I just wish he would lose interest and sell the team to a smarter and a more hands off owner. This Piston roster has big issues and the worst issue is lack of basketball IQ and commitment relating to physical conditioning and basic work ethic. Nobody will be talking about the Pistons tonight except angry Piston fans.

[WTF]

The main point I'm making is that the "winning now" idea was left unspecified, and that none of us know quite what was meant.  It wouldn't be that hard to specify something like: we're ready to replicate what we've been doing in Toronto the past few years, or even we plan to approximate what Toronto did last year.  In that way, it's an artful phrase in that it sounds grand, without making specific commitments (beyond the mathematical).

If I had to guess, I'd think that the Detroit management would think winning in the 46-55 range with some playoff success, would be a good accomplishment, in accord with my standard.  Heck, 54-28 would put him in coach of the year contention, as well as being the best record in a decade plus.

I don't know about Casey's private assessments (we did get an initial glimpse of misgivings by Brenda Casey's), although we've already seen an example where I doubt the public and private entirely coincide, when he said SVG did an excellent job.  That said, I do think he believes the team can win now.  But if he means what you want him to mean, then I'd begin to become skeptical.

That said,  I tend not to take what coaches say at face value, let alone regard them as the best guides as to what to expect.  Yes, news flash, there's are PR and psychological components to their job.  Coaches often knowingly overstate or understate (eg college football coaches facing a minnow) their team's prospects.  I apply a hermeneutic of suspicion when it comes to front office/ coaching (and team representatives like Keith Langlois's) pronouncements.  I'm inclined to take Vegas prognostications as a more reliable guide to realistic expectations.  I expect them to line up with my expectations rather than yours.  But I don't expect them to contradict the  vague: we can win now.  

Mathematically, winning now begins at 42-40.  I don't have a clear sense of what level of winning Casey's referring to.  Do you, Wise?  42? 55? 59? Playoff success?

In any case, I'm trying to fix what I see as realistic standards of achievements.  If Casey disagreed, that would be significant, but bear in mind is that part of his job is to promote the team and psych up the players.  Coming to a team that had won one game, Lombardi insisted on expect to win at once; evidently, private he conveyed to friends thinking that 4 wins would be a good achievement (GB went 7-5 in Lombardi's first year).

Casey say's the team can win now so why are you all thinking it's to great of an expectation when I say 55 wins should be the standard here and nothing less than that.   

Those of you that supporting Casey needs to follow suit I think, at least this the first thing I agree with Casey on.  WIN NOW!!!!!

From what I got from his comments is he's talking about seriously contending and not simply just making the playoffs.  Not really hard to read between the lines that the expectation is to win now.   He's certainly not talking about 42 wins and a playoff berth if so then he's already the wrong hire IMO.  If this is a snow job in the summer then he's definitely not the right hire.  promote the team and psych up the players I've could have sworn his job was to coach a winner and not lie about having one.  

So you're saying that perhaps Casey is lying and privately he thinks the team is screwed then who wants a liar as a coach.  It can't be both ways either he is the right coach or he's the wrong coach and many of you seem to think he was the right choice and touted all his accomplishment as being such so why come up with disclaimers.   

Maybe Casey should try out for a spot with dance team instead of coaching

46 wins are you okay with this over the next 2 or 3 seasons?   Should Gore and Casey be?   Is this Next Level stuff?  I don't think my expectation are too high or unrealistic so I'm hoping Casey means what I think he means.  Seems you want a specific numbers from Casey but I'm going to hold him to the term of win now.   Does winning now consist of second place or third place, does win now means 8th seed?    Are we now calling losers winners and that's okay?   

If Casey not man enough to say what he means then he again is the wrong guy.

[WTF]

Knight wasn't a bust or disappointment he like many were under developed players with potential to be great.   Factor in things like injuries and what you get is players like Knight.   Another thing to look at is the system a players put in and the question of fit factors into this as well.   

Truth is I would rather have a healthy Knight than a healthy Reggie at this moment.  IMO a healthy Knight can still be coached up but Reggie seems to be a enigma that's likely to never change.  

One could look at KCP as a bust to a degree I thought he underachieve greatly from misuse yet he had the potential to a D-Wade type player.  In the end he doesn't reach that potential under some questionable coaching here and allowed to walk away.  Not a bust just poorly coached and that's with most players today even AD to a point if he never reaches his full potential as a player. 

Hardly fair to snatch a under fundamentally equipped player one year out of college and place high expectation on them in the first place.  Sadly everyone keep wanting the one and done sensational player every time one gets drafted. This makes it easy to say bust,  even easier with a certain level of bias because they weren't necessarily your choice of favorite to begin with.  

IMO Knight was always over hyped and overly under coach.

[Sparma]

The main point I'm making is that the "winning now" idea was left unspecified, and that none of us know quite what was meant. It wouldn't be that hard to specify something like: we're ready to replicate what we've been doing in Toronto the past few years, or even we plan to approximate what Toronto did last year. In that way, it's an artful phrase in that it sounds grand, without making specific commitments (beyond the mathematical).

If I had to guess, I'd think that the Detroit management would think winning in the 46-55 range with some playoff success, would be a good accomplishment, in accord with my standard. Heck, 54-28 would put him in coach of the year contention, as well as being the best record in a decade plus.

I don't know about Casey's private assessments (we did get an initial glimpse of misgivings by Brenda Casey's), although we've already seen an example where I doubt the public and private entirely coincide, when he said SVG did an excellent job. That said, I do think he believes the team can win now. But if he means what you want him to mean, then I'd begin to become skeptical.

That said, I tend not to take what coaches say at face value, let alone regard them as the best guides as to what to expect. Yes, news flash, there's are PR and psychological components to their job. Coaches often knowingly overstate or understate (eg college football coaches facing a minnow) their team's prospects. I apply a hermeneutic of suspicion when it comes to front office/ coaching (and team representatives like Keith Langlois's) pronouncements. I'm inclined to take Vegas prognostications as a more reliable guide to realistic expectations. I expect them to line up with my expectations rather than yours. But I don't expect them to contradict the vague: we can win now.

Mathematically, winning now begins at 42-40.  I don't have a clear sense of what level of winning Casey's referring to.  Do you, Wise?  42? 55? 59? Playoff success?

In any case, I'm trying to fix what I see as realistic standards of achievements.  If Casey disagreed, that would be significant, but bear in mind is that part of his job is to promote the team and psych up the players.  Coming to a team that had won one game, Lombardi insisted on expect to win at once; evidently, private he conveyed to friends thinking that 4 wins would be a good achievement (GB went 7-5 in Lombardi's first year).

Casey say's the team can win now so why are you all thinking it's to great of an expectation when I say 55 wins should be the standard here and nothing less than that.   

Those of you that supporting Casey needs to follow suit I think, at least this the first thing I agree with Casey on.  WIN NOW!!!!!

From what I got from his comments is he's talking about seriously contending and not simply just making the playoffs.  Not really hard to read between the lines that the expectation is to win now.   He's certainly not talking about 42 wins and a playoff berth if so then he's already the wrong hire IMO.  If this is a snow job in the summer then he's definitely not the right hire.  promote the team and psych up the players I've could have sworn his job was to coach a winner and not lie about having one.  

So you're saying that perhaps Casey is lying and privately he thinks the team is screwed then who wants a liar as a coach.  It can't be both ways either he is the right coach or he's the wrong coach and many of you seem to think he was the right choice and touted all his accomplishment as being such so why come up with disclaimers.   

Maybe Casey should try out for a spot with dance team instead of coaching

[Murph]

Maybe bust is the wrong word. I’ll substitute “disappointment” for bust.

The term BUST was usually applied to guys drafted somewhere around 1-3 that utterly failed to live up to expectations. Draft order is based on perception, especially when you get past 5, it's a crap shoot.

The reason I thought about this is that you both called Knight a bust, and if he's a bust, then I'm not sure what definition you guys are using.

Could either or both of you give me some of the reasons someone, especially Knight would be considered a bust?

[WTF]

Mathematically, winning now begins at 42-40.  I don't have a clear sense of what level of winning Casey's referring to.  Do you, Wise?  42? 55? 59? Playoff success?

In any case, I'm trying to fix what I see as realistic standards of achievements.  If Casey disagreed, that would be significant, but bear in mind is that part of his job is to promote the team and psych up the players.  Coming to a team that had won one game, Lombardi insisted on expect to win at once; evidently, private he conveyed to friends thinking that 4 wins would be a good achievement (GB went 7-5 in Lombardi's first year).

Casey say's the team can win now so why are you all thinking it's to great of an expectation when I say 55 wins should be the standard here and nothing less than that.   

Those of you that supporting Casey needs to follow suit I think, at least this the first thing I agree with Casey on.  WIN NOW!!!!!

From what I got from his comments is he's talking about seriously contending and not simply just making the playoffs.  Not really hard to read between the lines that the expectation is to win now.   He's certainly not talking about 42 wins and a playoff berth if so then he's already the wrong hire IMO.  If this is a snow job in the summer then he's definitely not the right hire.  promote the team and psych up the players I've could have sworn his job was to coach a winner and not lie about having one.  

So you're saying that perhaps Casey is lying and privately he thinks the team is screwed then who wants a liar as a coach.  It can't be both ways either he is the right coach or he's the wrong coach and many of you seem to think he was the right choice and touted all his accomplishment as being such so why come up with disclaimers.   

Maybe Casey should try out for a spot with dance team instead of coaching

[Oracle]

[WTF]

Wise...the math doesn't work on unlimited illegal immigration.  So we should catch and release, or not even bother to catch all the illegal immigrants who flood in from Mexico and Guatemala.  What about Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua?  Those are poor countries also.  Should we let all the illegals from those countries flood in also?  And then there's Belize, Costa Rica and Panama.  What about Ecuador, Colombia and Venezuela, and Cuba, Haiti and the Dominican Republic?

And how many should we let in?  The last estimate was that 12 million illegal immigrants currently reside in this country, but I'm guessing that figure by now is really 15 - 25 million.  Should we let in another 10 million?  50 million? 100 million?  

And most states give free public education to immigrants, regardless of their legal status.  And of course they receive free healthcare.  No emergency room at any hospital turns anyone away, regardless of their legal status.  And many states allow illegals to receive welfare, food stamps, public housing, and free enrollment in state colleges.

As a nation, we are already $21 trillion in debt, and running an annual deficit of roughly another $750,000 billion a year.  And we still have plenty of our own problems, such as an opioid crisis, absurdly high inner city crime rates, police departments that need more personnel and better training, and miserable roads, bridges, public school buildings and airports.  Shouldn't we fix our own problems, before we open our borders to all of Central and South America?

I am all for cutting spending on many things, such as the space program and the military.  But even if we do that, total spending is going to skyrocket in the near future, because of rising entitlement spending on SS benefits and Medicare and Medicaid benefits as our legal population ages, and that doesn't even take into account more illegals.

And the thing is, no laws have even been changed.  Trump is only trying to enforce the existing laws on the books.  And Democrats are certainly disinterested in helping in any way.  They apparently want as many illegal immigrants in this country as possible.  The Dems are even going to oppose in court an executive order that Trump signed today to keep children with their families in detention centers at the border, because the Dems don't want anyone detained.  What Dem said don't detain them?  I'll wait


We need to build a wall, and fast.  Walls work.  Israel is an excellent example of a country with an effective border wall and border security.

Murph all I'm saying is there's humane way to doing even the harshest of deeds, this isn't it period.  No one is saying don't address the border issues not even the Dems so that's a falsehood.  No one wants illegals running around freely 

SS benefit are an investment into retirement it is not an entitlement when it's being deducted from your paycheck.  Maybe we shouldn't pay into that **** at all. Yeah I guess they're entitled to give me my **** back.   IJS  

You're close to retirement age don't you want your money back you spent your entire life paying into?  

Also as for the math take out the equation of Greed and Self Interest, while reducing all the dumb spending and the monies likely there.

[Sparma]

The draft IS a crapshoot, when "crapshoot" is defined as "something (such as a business venture) that has an unpredictable outcome." I failed to adhere to that definition while making my remark regarding probabilities. Of course, taken in that loose sense pretty much everything is a crapshoot, e.g., "Getting out of bed is a crapshoot." Maybe I should try to learn the game so as to have a better sense of what's meant.

I wrote a lengthy response venturing a productivity/ expectations per draft slot quotient that got lost in the ether before posting that I'm too lazy to re-compose.

I did want to record my disagreement with the notion that the draft is a "crap shoot", especially post #5.  The 2010 "Free Dark Presents..." conveys the productivity of players chosen through draft history at particular slots.  There's plenty of uncertainty, but also sufficient patterns to suggest the probability of higher productivity at higher slots.  On the whole, it's preferable to pick #6-10 over #11-15, etc.

The term BUST was usually applied to guys drafted somewhere around 1-3 that utterly failed to live up to expectations. Draft order is based on perception, especially when you get past 5, it's a crap shoot.

The reason I thought about this is that you both called Knight a bust, and if he's a bust, then I'm not sure what definition you guys are using.

Could either or both of you give me some of the reasons someone, especially Knight would be considered a bust?

[BallinD]

The Presser again showed me the childlike and loyal approach of Gores, not wanting to rock the boat yet, criticize SVG,or lay out a blueprint.  No plan, other than to say "In Casey we trust," even as the attendance continues to wane and the team continues to miss playoff seeding -- even with Blake Griffin -- to fade into irrelevance in today's NBA.

This year promises to be the most promising, possibly since the waning heydays of the Going To Work crew before the abominable Chauncey trade

Stefanski appears to be very very confident, aggressive and a sharp guy.  I hope he can whip the scouting staff into shape.  He also mentioned he is not averse to trying to move up in the draft...and this draft-centric emphasis is a breath of fresh air for our Pistons. So far, so good. Can he dump Leuer and Galloway for a piece, or a Pick? Atlanta, anybody? I hear they are shopping everybody, including one of their 4 picks.

Casey seems confident, affable and eager to get to work and try and win, while cementing his coaching legacy.  Player development and his eagerness to adopt a modern scheme is also promising.  Interesting that Tellem was also quoted elsewhere as favoring youth development and innovation.  I like it.  We shall see what Malik Rose can do, and he does come with time in the Spurs System.  Is Brent Barry also lurking in the wings?  Tayshaun?
 

Agreed.  I seem to be more skeptical than others about Isiah's odds of success at GM, or Laimbeer's as NBA coach, but be that as it may, I agree that they, or others, would be worthy additions as consultants.  Gores does seem to have taken some distance from past Piston greats, which is a shame.   I agree with your assessment and share your regrets.  I wished somebody in the presser woulda asked him about that, but I guess this sentiment is not widespread.

Since we're in the middle of a Pistons reset right now, why not get a "Legends" type consultant in here to the FO?  The Warriors got Steve Nash, the Clippers got Jerry West.  They are consultants, another mind in the room, not necessarily an employee.  Get a great basketball mind to join the braintrust.  Laimbeer?  Billups? KG? Caron Butler? Kenny Smith? Sheed? C-Webb? Just a few ideas of players who have good basketball minds and a former affiliation with the Stones.

[/color]

[Sparma]

Agreed. I seem to be more skeptical than others about Isiah's odds of success at GM, or Laimbeer's as NBA coach, but be that as it may, I agree that they, or others, would be worthy additions as consultants. Gores does seem to have taken some distance from past Piston greats, which is a shame.

Since we're in the middle of a Pistons reset right now, why not get a "Legends" type consultant in here to the FO?  The Warriors got Steve Nash, the Clippers got Jerry West.  They are consultants, another mind in the room, not necessarily an employee.  Get a great basketball mind to join the braintrust.  Laimbeer?  Billups? KG? Caron Butler? Kenny Smith? Sheed? C-Webb? Just a few ideas of players who have good basketball minds and a former affiliation with the Stones.

[Sparma]

I wrote a lengthy response venturing a productivity/ expectations per draft slot quotient that got lost in the ether before posting that I'm too lazy to re-compose.

I did want to record my disagreement with the notion that the draft is a "crap shoot", especially post #5. The 2010 "Free Dark Presents..." conveys the productivity of players chosen through draft history at particular slots. There's plenty of uncertainty, but also sufficient patterns to suggest the probability of higher productivity at higher slots. On the whole, it's preferable to pick #6-10 over #11-15, etc.

The term BUST was usually applied to guys drafted somewhere around 1-3 that utterly failed to live up to expectations. Draft order is based on perception, especially when you get past 5, it's a crap shoot.

The reason I thought about this is that you both called Knight a bust, and if he's a bust, then I'm not sure what definition you guys are using.

Could either or both of you give me some of the reasons someone, especially Knight would be considered a bust?

[Sparma]

Mathematically, winning now begins at 42-40. I don't have a clear sense of what level of winning Casey's referring to. Do you, Wise? 42? 55? 59? Playoff success?

In any case, I'm trying to fix what I see as realistic standards of achievements. If Casey disagreed, that would be significant, but bear in mind is that part of his job is to promote the team and psych up the players. Coming to a team that had won one game, Lombardi insisted on expect to win at once; evidently, private he conveyed to friends thinking that 4 wins would be a good achievement (GB went 7-5 in Lombardi's first year).

Casey say's the team can win now so why are you all thinking it's to great of an expectation when I say 55 wins should be the standard here and nothing less than that.   

Those of you that supporting Casey needs to follow suit I think, at least this the first thing I agree with Casey on.  WIN NOW!!!!!

[Murph]

Wise...the math doesn't work on unlimited illegal immigration.  So we should catch and release, or not even bother to catch all the illegal immigrants who flood in from Mexico and Guatemala.  What about Honduras, El Salvador and Nicaragua?  Those are poor countries also.  Should we let all the illegals from those countries flood in also?  And then there's Belize, Costa Rica and Panama.  What about Ecuador, Colombia and Venezuela, and Cuba, Haiti and the Dominican Republic?

And how many should we let in?  The last estimate was that 12 million illegal immigrants currently reside in this country, but I'm guessing that figure by now is really 15 - 25 million.  Should we let in another 10 million?  50 million? 100 million?  

And most states give free public education to immigrants, regardless of their legal status.  And of course they receive free healthcare.  No emergency room at any hospital turns anyone away, regardless of their legal status.  And many states allow illegals to receive welfare, food stamps, public housing, and free enrollment in state colleges.

As a nation, we are already $21 trillion in debt, and running an annual deficit of roughly another $750,000 billion a year.  And we still have plenty of our own problems, such as an opioid crisis, absurdly high inner city crime rates, police departments that need more personnel and better training, and miserable roads, bridges, public school buildings and airports.  Shouldn't we fix our own problems, before we open our borders to all of Central and South America?

I am all for cutting spending on many things, such as the space program and the military.  But even if we do that, total spending is going to skyrocket in the near future, because of rising entitlement spending on SS benefits and Medicare and Medicaid benefits as our legal population ages, and that doesn't even take into account more illegals.

And the thing is, no laws have even been changed.  Trump is only trying to enforce the existing laws on the books.  And Democrats are certainly disinterested in helping in any way.  They apparently want as many illegal immigrants in this country as possible.  The Dems are even going to oppose in court an executive order that Trump signed today to keep children with their families in detention centers at the border, because the Dems don't want anyone detained.


We need to build a wall, and fast.  Walls work.  Israel is an excellent example of a country with an effective border wall and border security.

[cool breeze]

I have to give Oracle number 1 ranking this week with the no reason is the best reason posting on the girl showing off her ass while adjusting the red dress. Why not do this when your team's owner gets out smarted in that Clippers trade. Tom's brain trust showed they have no brains as we fans might as well skip the upcoming draft night. I watched the experts last night on ESPN talk about how well the Clippers did in that trade ridding the team of that $35 Mil salary while getting what they said was an upcoming NBA star in Tobias Harris. We have the damaged older often injured player with a long contract who makes the same money as Labron James. How exciting it is for us now especially with the new coach all signed up and eager to take our Pistons to the finals with none other than Reggie Jackson our defensive ace. Things are really great in Piston land. We have to hope that the coaches wife likes the Detroit area. Otherwise Casey might quit once he starts coaching his team in the new empty arena.

Next season our highly paid players will make the playoffs by default as many teams might be in the rebuild mode. Then within 2 or 3 years those rebuilding teams will have the young high draft picks kicking our players asses. More pictures please Mr. Oracle or I might turn to a shot of Jack Daniels like the character Benny who tried to drown his sadness when his girl friend gave him the crabs in the movie "Bring Me The Head of Alfredo Garcia".

I see there has been a discussion on the border issues. I live in a border area. What amazes me is the impact of the media where they sell folks on lies and can create a new victims group each week and get everyone excited and offended that our government leaders are so cruel. CSPAN had a panel of experts determine that the 2016 illegal immigration costs American tax payers was around 111 billion after taxes those illegals contributed.What could poor American citizens or young kids do with that money to pay for their education if given the opportunity. The drug cartels get $3,000 to $8,000 per head for crossers to accompany the coyotes who sneak them across the border and then of course house them in dirty horrible conditions while they make their way North to work as slaves in factories, hotels, and other hard labor farming jobs for next to nothing. The hospitals are bankrupt or near bankrupt in all border cities as the illegals come across the border suffering from horrific medical conditions. They get transplants and other expensive medical care that middle class people cannot afford for free. But we cannot tolerate separating parents from their children when caught committing the crime of illegally entering our country. Authorities need to screen the so called parents who are often not parents at all and are human traffic criminals. Last week the border patrol caught 6 people at night when a television reporter was allowed to go out with border patrol agents here. Five out of six of the middle aged men who were caught that night were repeat criminal offenders in the drug business who had been through the American criminal court system and sent back to Mexico. Maybe those kids are very happy to be separated from their so called parents. Who would ever risk the lives of our kids to attempt an illegal crossing given the risks relating to the high temperatures, snakes and lack of water etc. The details are important and it is amazing how gullible people who watch the bogus news reporting can be. What could our country do with $111 billion dollars that the illegals cost tax payers relating to the impact on our schools, health care, law enforcement and the legal costs. The time as come to pressure Mexico to end the flow of illegals into our country. We should have cut off all foreign aid and charged high import fees for all vehicles that are manufactured in Mexico instead of the State of Michigan and other states now. Big business owners pay off the political whores who we call representatives in Washington from both political parties to promote an open borders and obstruct any change in immigration policy. The average citizen especially the poor American citizens suffer the most from our politicians turning a blind eye to this amazing problem. Who in their right mind would want open borders except for those big business owners who have created this mess? The problem is people just follow along with their political party of choice's line and never explore the actual details. They don't know that they don't know as Mark Scott used to say on his radio show. Yet they have an opinion based on watching the television news which never tells the real story.

News flash all minority folks. Under President Trump African American employment and wages have reached historic high levels. The tax law actually really helps all middle class citizens of all races but yet the social media says Trump is a racist. Do you really believe that nonsense? North Korea might decide to scrap their nukes. Some who hate trump were hoping for a war instead of peace. The stock market hasn't collapsed as my brother predicted ( he lives in California where fake news thrives). Criminal violent gangs like MS 13 are being dealt with more seriously. And surprise surprise this President wants to at least do something to stop the illegal flow of criminals who do not go through proper channels to enter our country and especially chain migration. The media will call him cruel because he is trying to do the right thing for all American citizens not those who want to come to America illegally or the American business leaders who employ them instead of giving American citizens a fair wage. But the media creates the throbbing heart stories. They could find those same stories involving American families who are victims of crime. If people buy into the main stream media's goal of creating a lot of victims groups then the revolution can take place. Be careful what you wish for. Racism was once a big problem but that time as passed long ago. I see people of all races are getting along well here and treat each other as individuals with respect and then I come home and watch the news which offers another story about racism, or how the transgenders are mis treated, or new sexual abuse allegations etc. What are we doing as individuals to make things better? How about being kind and teaching our children to be kind instead of telling them how badly this country sucks along with most of the people who live in it who do not look exactly like you. This immigration issue will not be resolved because rich people who control the media want more people to cross the border to secure cheap labor so their profit margins get bigger. Watch the Discovery Channel series on how the Mexican government works hand in hand with the drug cartels to make this all happen for those who want those workers from Mexico who take jobs away from unemployed Americans.

Piston fans need some good news. That won't happen on draft night. Why did you do it Mr. Gores? How could you destroy the Detroit Pistons so badly?

[WTF]

I wish I was a thong

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