Re: FORUM

[lemonpen]

“They’re tick-tack fouls, but then you can’t stop playing and give up layups at the rim,” Casey said. “That’s the thing when he got his fourth — he got soft at the rim and they had 23 layups.

“He’s got to be more physical at the rim, go vertical and still challenge shots at the rim. That’s very important. Even though you have three or four fouls, you still have to give yourself up and protect the rim. We didn’t do a good job of that.

-Dwane Casey-


Hmmm...I have reservations about his quote.  It seems that Drummond is being blamed for not stopping opposing guards at the rim on help defense.

How about blaming our guards who lost their men, and allowed the opposing guards to drive to the rim in the first place?


OTOH, if you want to blame Drummond for hoisting up 3 point shots at a rate of 20%, I'm all in on that criticism.  That's just plane moronic.

I love the comment, and I'm pleased that CASEY used the word soft. We're beginning to see leadership from the top. First Griffin now Casey.
Isn't this what change looks like. Some guys go all in, while some guys just go.

[Murph]

“They’re tick-tack fouls, but then you can’t stop playing and give up layups at the rim,” Casey said. “That’s the thing when he got his fourth — he got soft at the rim and they had 23 layups.

“He’s got to be more physical at the rim, go vertical and still challenge shots at the rim. That’s very important. Even though you have three or four fouls, you still have to give yourself up and protect the rim. We didn’t do a good job of that.

-Dwane Casey-


Hmmm...I have reservations about his quote.  It seems that Drummond is being blamed for not stopping opposing guards at the rim on help defense.

How about blaming our guards who lost their men, and allowed the opposing guards to drive to the rim in the first place?


OTOH, if you want to blame Drummond for hoisting up 3 point shots at a rate of 20%, I'm all in on that criticism. That's just plane moronic.

[Oracle]

I'm mostly in agreement with everybody here about Reggie. Talented, but with a ton of flaws, the biggest, IMO, is that he's a head case that believes he's better than he is, and I doubt that will change. However, I do believe that he can be very effective on this team if used right.

My definition of a big 3 is simple, the three best players on any team that are separated from the rest of the team by talent and production. Our big 3 are by far the best we have, so on this team, they are the big 3. This implies no elite status at all, as far as big 3's historically, they're down on the low end, and really not deserving to be in that conversation, but I hope that will get better.

I can't tell you how great I feel when Michigan, the Lions and the Pistons are winning... Cloud 9 isn't too far off! 

The Lions waltzed into Miami's house and ran all over them... a running game from our Lions??? Wow, if that continues, this team could be VERY dangerous. I'm pleasantly surprised because Miami is pretty tough at home.

BTW, I was sick after that loss to the Irish as well. The loss was bad enough, but the way they lost just bothered me. Then I got worried in the first half against State once Stated tied it at 7, I was like, here we go again. But they got their act together and took control playing good offense and defense.

BTW, some of this great level of play by Blake Griffin should rub off on both Reggie and Andre soon. You can't have the undisputed leader playing that way and not produce. Everybody else needs to raise their level of play or get the hell out of dodge, IMO!

Oracle perhaps more opinion than fact seem your implying Reggie is Elite and nothing could be more further from truth.  Are you redefining what a actual Big Three is and what it  consist of?

Yes Go Blue after that opening loss to the Irish I was feeling kind of sick at the stomach, now I think our playoffs hopes are back in full swing.  They just need to finish the season without another loss and put a whipping on the Buckeyes. Go Blue

My Lions  today.  Sitting at 3-3 right now I think we're capable of beating each of our division rivals twice with that being said they'll make the playoffs if they can accomplish that.  I don't think any of our rivals are much better if they're better than us at all.  Go Lions

[cool breeze]

Don...I knew it wouldn't take you long to warm up to Zaza.  I really don't know how you missed him before.  He had been playing very well for the Warrior for the last two years, even winning two rings with them.  He got labeled as a dirty player at Golden State, which is why they didn't resign him.  Nevertheless, the Pistons could use a little of that grit on defense.  One man's dirty player is another man's Pistons DNA.  

That said, I still wish the Psitons could have found room for both Zaza and Moreland on the roster.

I watched the game and saw the same AD of old relating to his lack of quick recognition skills. He really didn't get his fouls trying to stop penetrating guards who blew by Reggie Bullock. Interesting that Kennard did not play in this game and he brought back Bullock in crunch time maybe hoping for some offensive punch from RB. AD actually looks both confused and still suffers from the disease SVG used to call 'Lack of engagement". Drivers get into the lane. AD is actually in position to challenge the drivers but doesn't. They go right around him for uncontested layups or at least that happened a lot in the first half. Obviously the Bulls scouted the Nets-Pistons game where LeVert and Dinwiddie had their way in the paint. Our guards gave up drives from the wing a lot. ZaZa didn't allow the easy layups. Yet one time AD was on one side of the lane and went to the opposite low post to provide a powerful block where the shooter crumbled to the hardwood and the block was so clean that no foul was called. AD has the a ability to get in front of drivers or challenge drivers shots but doesn't even get a hand up in time most of the time. Casey in my opinion felt more comfortable with ZaZa at times. To me I think AD just can't think quick enough as a defender or he is just not interested and takes very little pride in playing defense. However, I am starting to believe that Casey as hired an outstanding group of assistant coaches who will not settle for what is currently going on in the paint.

Blake's post game interview revealed to me that he is the leader and is worried about his team right now. It seems that almost every play that involves coming off screens or seeing cutters moving without the ball and actually getting the ball involves Blake Griffin. The rest of the players seem to not be able to think in terms of maybe looking for a open teammate to pass the ball to on the 2nd or third options within the offense. they get it and shoot it. Maybe Stanley Johnson is observing what is available when he touches the ball as well and Reggie Jackson at times made some good passes. I was impressed with Reggie Jackson's performance because he was effective without being ball dominate. Ish Smith, who had a good offensive game was ball dominate though but he made some difficult shots so no complaints.

From the last two games where the Pistons won both, I believe that Blake Griffin is not impressed with his cast of characters he plays with. The Nets and Bulls are rebuilding and trying to get lucky in the lottery. Yet both teams were in the games and could have won. The Pistons could be zero and two right now. But hopefully winning those games will build confidence and they will start playing better together. Looking at the financial picture that the Pistons have one would think this Piston team should be one of the top teams in the NBA. They do not look like that type of team so far. But what if Tolliver had been signed? He would have fit Casey's style really well.


I didn't see the game, but I assume AD picked up many of his 6 fouls last night trying to play help defense on all the guards that Jackson and Bullock allowed to drive the lane.  And I'm sure that the reason Drummond wasn't more aggressive trying to clean up the mess made by our guards, was because he was already in foul trouble from playing help defense.

[WTF]

Oracle perhaps more opinion than fact seem your implying Reggie is Elite and nothing could be more further from truth.  Are you redefining what a actual Big Three is and what it  consist of?

Yes Go Blue after that opening loss to the Irish I was feeling kind of sick at the stomach, now I think our playoffs hopes are back in full swing.  They just need to finish the season without another loss and put a whipping on the Buckeyes. Go Blue

My Lions  today.  Sitting at 3-3 right now I think we're capable of beating each of our division rivals twice with that being said they'll make the playoffs if they can accomplish that.  I don't think any of our rivals are much better if they're better than us at all.  Go Lions

[Murph]

Don...I knew it wouldn't take you long to warm up to Zaza.  I really don't know how you missed him before.  He had been playing very well for the Warrior for the last two years, even winning two rings with them.  He got labeled as a dirty player at Golden State, which is why they didn't resign him.  Nevertheless, the Pistons could use a little of that grit on defense.  One man's dirty player is another man's Pistons DNA.  

That said, I still wish the Psitons could have found room for both Zaza and Moreland on the roster.


I didn't see the game, but I assume AD picked up many of his 6 fouls last night trying to play help defense on all the guards that Jackson and Bullock allowed to drive the lane.  And I'm sure that the reason Drummond wasn't more aggressive trying to clean up the mess made by our guards, was because he was already in foul trouble from playing help defense.

[cool breeze]

What's so confusing about this team having a Big 3?

We have a big 3... PERIOD! That's not an opinion, it's a fact!

Comparing them to past teams is a totally different argument that doesn't change the facts of what they are.

The problem with stating that the Pistons have "The Big Three" is that the 3 players we have are not playing big on defense. AD got 1 nice block in the 2nd half but did not act as a paint protector against drivers throughout the game. Somehow he does not believe it is role to challenge drivers. He looks like is is fencing and slides away from the driver instead of anticipating and getting between the driver and the basket and then going up with this big arms to challenge shots. So far in the first two games, the guards are challenging AD knowing he will allow them to score layups if they can get past the first stage perimeter defenders. AD just cannot get the mindset he needs to help his team. It doesn't help when the biggest offender among the Piston guards, Reggie Bullock, allowed whoever he was defending to drive past him at will. Bullock could not stop the driver off the wing because he was guessing and committing before the driver picked up his dribble. It was amazing to me that Casey had Bullock in the game during crunch time. Bullock scored something like 15 points but I thought he wasn't playing the right way even on offense because he had teammates un guarded sever times when he decided to not make the extra pass. This was Bullock's first game so I will cut him some slack knowing that but his mental game must get better. I thought he was a pretty good defender last season so maybe he will settle down.

The positives I take from the game was of course the play of Blake. But I also want to acknowledge the fact that Reggie Jackson shot the ball well and did that while playing off the ball. He also played OK on defense getting his long arms up to challenge shots and moving his feet well on defense. And I must also comment on the work of ZaZa. While AD was a weakling much of the time failing to step out on drivers and make them feel some pain, Za Za was the opposite. He seems to love contact. Reminded me a bit of Laimbeer on defense. And he sets some sweet screens. ZaZa play much better together than the Griffin - Drummond combination. But AD did squeeze in on the weak side after Blake missed some shots and got some nice offensive rebounds and put backs. The season is young. Casey is experimenting. Smith came up big at the end although he had a tough time matching up on defense. Smith showed he can knock down the 3 and that drive at the end was incredible.

The coach for the Bulls had to assemble a lineup that didn't include his best players. As Blake said in the post game interview, the Pistons need to greatly improve on defense or they will be in big trouble.

[Oracle]

I follow the Lakers, having lived in LA for many years before coming back home.

I like KCP, but with the new makeup of LA, he no longer fits for 2 reasons.

First is that he's redundant and his role is that of a 3 point shooter only, and he doesn't hit that shot at a rate that's required of a player that fills that role exclusively.

Second, the Lakers actually have a more talented youngster, Josh Hart, coming off the bench that does everything KCP does and more.

IMO, the Lakers should move KCP, if for no other reason than to let this talented youngster grow, since he's playing better than KCP already and they don't lose that much on defense.

[Oracle]

What's so confusing about this team having a Big 3?

We have a big 3... PERIOD! That's not an opinion, it's a fact!

Comparing them to past teams is a totally different argument that doesn't change the facts of what they are.

[BallinD]

Lotta questions , barely winning vs short handed lotto bound teams...Casey schemes. Bromance for SJ, give it to Blake bully ball offense and continued matador defense, Despite the Bromance, didn’t see Stanley stop much offense, and he by far was the worst plus/minus, but no Luke? No Luke?

Gotta win, but barely. Dre in foul trouble again, is it the perimeter defense, defensive scheme? Big 3 ( Not) but weggie had a decent game. How bout Big 2, little w.

Sixers, Celtics, Cavs on deck.

[WTF]

I agree the supporting cast needs to step someone anyone does.  We need to find our next Corliss and Tay we keep waiting for SJ but I don't see it happening.  Right now we don't have Hunters or James on the roster although Ish gives it his best effort.   Right now we're not even close to having the supporting cast our last championship team had so I won't even talk about the supporting cast from the Bad Boys era.


I've seen Big Three's here before perhaps better CB, Rip, Ben, and Sheed could be considered a Big Four heck we saw them all in the same ASG later to had to a 2nd Finals.   Don't Reggie at minimum need to be an All Star a couple of time to be consider a part of a Big Any Number.

Hell Hill, Houston and Stackhouse was a big three if you think about it and Reggie not as good as any of the three players mentioned.  Think about this as well they were playing with Joe Dumars.  Yeah remember him he was part of a Big Three, Four or Five depending how one might look at I wouldn't argue that Zeke, Joe, Worm, Bill and Rick weren't a Big Five.  These guys were all All-Stars together or separately.  

We barely have a Big Two and certainly our current supporting cast is far below average.  They're not even close to supporting cast of the past era's including that of the Teal Years.   

Just think about the bench and supporting cast we had in all three era's history would indicate that Gores has not a clue to what type of players need to be put around Blake and AD.   

As far as Reggie goes I can't think of one past Pistons Starting PG that Reggie is better than and I mean all of them 

[Murph]

I missed the game, but it looked like a stinker.  Drummond was apparently in foul trouble all night, and only played 24 minutes before fouling out.  

Our defense looked horrific.  The combination of Jackson and Bullock in the backcourt can't stop any dribble penetration, particularly with Drummond on the bench.

I see Casey went with his vets.  Kennard was conspicuously glued to the bench in favor of Galloway.  Brown did not play, and Ellenson never sees the light of day, which is actually a good thing.

And Drummond and SJ continued to chuck from the 3 pt line at a combined rate of 22%.


On the bright side, Griffin had a monster offensive game.  We had 6 players in double figures.  As Sparma pointed out, we shot 45% from the 3 pt line as a team.  And any road win is a good win, no matter how ugly.

[Oracle]

You're right, well, you and Blake!

Our defense sucks and it's only because our offense is a bit better with the big 3 together, that we've been able to weather the storm.

We have to get better and this stretch will tell us a lot about who these guys are... Many problems to fix, but that's most teams.

[Sparma]

Quite right, sir, with Philly, Cavs, and Celtics x2 coming up, but great game for you tonight.

The offense showed more fluency tonight than versus the Nets. I credit the presence of Reggie B with a good portion of that.

Stanley J came on late after poor shooting for most of the game, but still ended up with a -21 where the next worst was -5 (Blake at +17).

Horrendous D, again especially on dribble penetration, making Zach Levine looking like a superstar for much of the game (until the last stop with Blake and Ish pitching in!)

Blake's right; unless we get better we'll get scorched in the coming stretch.

We're not going to be hitting 45% from 3 as a team very often.

Still: 2-0!!

[Oracle]

News Flash: We do have a big 3! The question is... do we have a supporting cast.

News Flash 2: We have a REALLY smart coach! Leaving Drummond on the bench when he clearly isn't needed, but SVG would have had him in there.

News Flash 3: Ish Smith's death bed is empty, the dude is alive and well! It's not who starts, it's who finishes, and Ish finished this game with the game winner!!

News Flash 4: What is going on with the great minds on this forum?
1. Not recognizing the real needs of the team by seeking to fall on past issues instead of looking where we really are.
2. Trying to promote guys that haven't earned a damn thing. Before you promote guys to the starting lineup, why in the world don't you want to see if they can kick some 2nd unit arse first?

Bottom Line: We have a good coach and a big 3, they aren't the biggest problem. It's the supporting cast, they're the guys that we need to step up or the big 3 are going to get burned out.

[Sparma]

Great stuff by Reggie J on O in the first half, including scoring 10 (!) on 3 threes (& a FT). Looking very effective when off the ball.

We're getting killed, again, on dribble penetration.

Also, a 9 of 21 rate on 3s can't be sustained in the long run. But maybe it will last us through the game?!

Also, there no way Blake gets through the season injury free if he keeps getting this kind of pounding. Kudos to him for going inside, but there's a cost!

[Oracle]

I know it gives you a good high, but the hangover is a Biootch 

Same thing every year you all go from too early at the start to it being too late by season end.  How about being right on time for a change.

Wise, just because you and others want to jump down their throats before the offensive and defensive systems kick in for mostly emotional reasons which are somewhat understandable(but not excusable), remember this.

You can't overturn the laws of physics in the NBA. Almost all teams aren't who they will be until around 20 games. This has been true forever, and it isn't going to change this year because you're impatiently waiting to jump on the usual suspects. Give it time, and then I'll be more than happy to supply the torches and pitch forks to run them out of town 

GO BLUE!!!!!!

Well you got that right! After a horrible first half, we finally decided to dine on some Spartan arse, and it was tasty too. Michigan's first road win against a ranked opponent in a million years... Love It!!!

[Sparma]

That may well be the solution, Murph. I see Reggie J as the biggest barrier to Casey's vision presently, but dude's got skills. He's still probably worth more to us -- if only as a future asset -- than as someone to be traded for a loss. I think Casey may be willing play Reggie J off the bench once Ish is gone.

After this year, Ish's contract expires.  Then we should move Reggie into Ish's slot on the second unit, and let him dominate the ball and drive to the hoop to his heart's content with the reserves.

And we should move Bruce Brown into the starting line-up.  I'm guessing Bruce will happily move the ball around the perimeter, and play great D.  After looking at his summer leauge stats, I agree with Don that his shooting needs to be addressed and could be an issue.

[WTF]

GO BLUE!!!!!!

[cool breeze]

Just finished watching Golden State vs Utah this morning. I had read that Mitchell had been training hard over the summer and concentrating on improving his quick recognition skills on offense and really pushing himself with conditioning to improve on the defensive end. Watching Mitchell move in this game made me almost ill thinking what effect he would have had with the Pistons last season and this year. We didn't get Mitchell because of insane petty politics. Don't mess with AD and his love affair with RJ. Got to make sure there will be no competition for Jackson and Smith relating to who plays point guard. Donovan Mitchell was a no brainer. Kennard is not the athlete Mitchell is now. Kennard might never get a shot to play point guard which is the most logical decision the Pistons should be making after seeing what happened in the first game. Spencer Dinwiddie and LeVert made fools of the Piston guards. What is going to happen when the Pistons start playing some of the high end NBA teams?

Golden State vs Utah game also revealed another sore spot for all Piston fans who loved Jonas Jerebco. He had a strong following among Piston fans from his outstanding rookie season. Because of his injury the following year, Jerebco struggled to get his mojo back. Almost any athlete who suffers Jerebco's injury either never returns to normal or experiences a lengthy recovery. In my opinion the Piston coaching staffs that were in place after Jerebco returned never understood that he had to offer any team. He is fundamentally sound in every area. He always had the ability to drive it or shoot it from distance. He boxed out well and rebounded the basketball in big situations in games. Yet the grass was greener for Piston front office idiots and the Piston's former head coach. As I saw it Jerebco never was given a fair chance to win playing time. Fast forward I watched Jonas Jerebco playing for Steve Kerr and Golden State. Kerr loves the way Jerebco plays basketball. He is unselfish and has a high basketball IQ. Jonas has found another home with a championship caliber team. So for the Pistons ownership group. Jerebco was not good enough to play for them. It was never about the money. Jonas was not asking for a big pay day. Piston fans were pissed when he was sitting on the bench or at least I was. I was disappointed when he left the Motor City. Meanwhile the fans from Boston loved Jerebco and now he is a fan favorite with the Warriors after playing two games. What a smart move by Kerr who always is three steps ahead of our Piston leadership. God we have the dumb and dumber when you look at things honestly. Don't build a team through the draft with high draft picks. Keep guessing on inferior poor performing free agents. Over pay average to below average players. Inhibit the ability to make trades because insane contracts involving players who are not A plus type players. Every team needs at least two A plus caliber players. This ownership goes into a panic situation with their bipolar brains and we get the Griffin trade and AD shooting 3s with good old RJ with his $17mil contract followed by Jon Leuer and Galloway. Oh and don't forget the Josh Smith brain fart.

[cool breeze]

After this year, Ish's contract expires.  Then we should move Reggie into Ish's slot on the second unit, and let him dominate the ball and drive to the hoop to his heart's content with the reserves.

And we should move Bruce Brown into the starting line-up.  I'm guessing Bruce will happily move the ball around the perimeter, and play great D.  After looking at his summer leauge stats, I agree with Don that his shooting needs to be addressed and could be an issue.

Murph I agree with you based on who the coach is willing to try at point guard. Brown can match up defensively with every starting point guard in the Eastern conference. The team doesn't have prolific scorers at any position maybe with the exception of Griffin if he is capable of shooting the long ball well and can stay healthy. Brown plays with the designed offensive system. Reggie is not disciplined enough to change his old habits so far. I would give up the scoring that Reggie brings to the starting unit for a better play maker and defender.

With that said, Luke Kennard should be given a shot as the starting point guard. He has all the gifts relating to leadership and high basketball IQ to make a a solid point guard. I think Luke sees the floor as well or better than any player in the rotation. Maybe Brown provides better defense than Kennard but Luke can hit the open 3 ball with consistency and he is a good driver and play maker. Kennard hurt his chances of becoming the Piston's point guard when he was not able to perform in summer league due to his knee injury. Casey needs to get creative. He really has nothing to lose. Teams will slack off on Brown and tease him to shoot the long range and mid range jump shot. With Reggie, every NBA team loves it when he goes into his dribbling routine and they target him as the weak link on defense. Reggie Jackson has no business being a starting point guard. If anything, he needs to try to earn playing time at the 2.

[Murph]

After this year, Ish's contract expires.  Then we should move Reggie into Ish's slot on the second unit, and let him dominate the ball and drive to the hoop to his heart's content with the reserves.

And we should move Bruce Brown into the starting line-up.  I'm guessing Bruce will happily move the ball around the perimeter, and play great D. After looking at his summer leauge stats, I agree with Don that his shooting needs to be addressed and could be an issue.

[WTF]

Same thing every year you all go from too early at the start to it being too late by season end.  How about being right on time for a change.

[Sparma]

[Sparma:] "At this point, trading him would likely mean taking a bad contract back or giving up a draft pick [again]." [Deus:]
No, no, no, Sparma, you just gave RJ some roses now you're willing to except a bad contract and give up a draft pick also just to rid the Pistons of this numbskull?! Why can't we end up with a draft pick? We've got to see ourselves thru a brighter lens."

That was just me trying to gauge the present trade market for Reggie J, Deus. As down as we are on him, what reason is there to think other GMs want to give up something valuable to acquire his services?

Roses? My two posts concerning Reggie might be analogous to a teacher describing a really disruptive student who gets crummy grades, but then adds that the sad thing is that he's pretty smart. Would that really be a rose in that context?

We evidently did once have a good trade opportunity, the one that you wanted so badly, Deus, and that I wanted too, for Ricky Rubio. I can't see us having an opportunity like that again.

Still, Oracle makes a good point about it being early. Maybe, maybe, Casey can still have a positive impact on Reggie J. The early returns don't look promising though!

Reggie does have skills, talent, but it looks like he's just not on board with the coach's vision (play fast, move the ball, either drive all the way to the basket or go for the relatively high % corner 3s, play D).

I felt Brandon Knight was the another who just didn't get it, overestimating his own ability, going for his own play far deep into the clock and too often at the expense of early, high %, opportunities for others. But Brandon's landed in the perfect spot for someone with his proclivities, which I hope he can demonstrate once back to health. Clearly, he can't be the ball dominant front liner, but he can contribute heavily off the bench. That's the kind of spot that Reggie J needs too. Clearly behind (also in his own awareness) dominant stars [of course, you'd like to think he'd at least acknowledge Blake in that role here] and coming off the bench. Maybe there an executive out there who sees a niche of the sort for Reggie, once he's demonstrated he's back to 100%? At this point, that seems like a long shot.

[Oracle]

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