Just Thinking

[WTF]

Be nice if SVG wasn't the coach because I would love to have both Walker and Howard.  I could live with Howards deal for the next 2 seasons I think this would be ideal if we could keep Andre, Harris, Ellenson and Kennard in the process.  I like Batum but not at that cost.

I have no problem giving up a 1st, or losing Tolliver, SJ to go along with Reggie in exchange for Walker or Batum.  IMO this would make us as good as the Raptors but not better than the Celtics or Cavs.   There's obvious some merit to the Davies rumor and one of them could very well end up with him if I was betting I say the Cavs.   Cousins was also mention as well.   

In any case the Pistons need to get a 3rd team involved perhaps maybe the Bulls would be nice if we could end up with Mirotic.  Still though in the back of my mind even if these move came to fruition SVG would find some way to mess it up.  If he can't properly coach this current group what difference does it make who's on the roster.

[Oracle]

The combination of Walker and Bradley could be very powerful. I might be the only person on this forum who really likes Avery Bradley and still have difficulty understanding that but Oracle does point out that I am really stupid so that might be it.

Two things, first, That was my first thought, that Bradley & Walker could be very powerful, even though they would form a tiny backcourt, but the part that keeps eluding you is that Bradley is a gonner for several reasons, if we can move him, we should.

Secondly Don, I hardly think you're stupid, but that doesn't mean you can't do a pretty good imitation of stupid at times(I'm not immune either). You love to make the silly insults when all you need to do is make your point. I find no joy saying these things about some of your posts, and generally seek to avoid commenting on it until you just get crazy and I have no choice.

Here's to wishing we can get back the thoughtful guy that I used to want to read and missed when you weren't posting.

For what it's worth, I played official, organized, basketball in HS, and soccer in college.  Although I think having played can make a difference in analysis, it generally carries little or no advantage, and even can be a hindrance.  Illustrating the advantage of experience, if someone who's played football starts talking about what it's like in the huddle, or in a pile up, I defer, not having played.  Notoriously many players, with some exceptions, poo poo statistical analysis, or just know little about it.  That can be a problem, when the expert eye test is held as the single authority, when (I think) it generally should be paired with quantifiable analysis.  Figuring out Avery Bradley's a case in point on our Pistons.  Knowing that he's got a TO problem guides the eye to try to discern why.

Great point Sparma! I know a lot of people that never played organized ball that can break down games and provide insight better than those that have.

Don knows that most here have some experience, which is why he uses the insult as he does. He generally likes to use it on me because he knows I've played organized ball and he seeks to hurt. Truthfully the first time he said it, it did upset me a lot because I respected his opinion, but I pay little attention anymore.

He doesn't need to put others down to try to make himself seem smarter, it's a losing game.

Game: Man how the mighty have fallen, but with 10 minutes left, Kennard hits a 3 to pull us within 12. I really hope we can bring this one home, I come to dislike the Wizards because they beat us so much.

[Sparma]

For what it's worth, I played official, organized, basketball in HS, and soccer in college. Although I think having played can make a difference in analysis, it generally carries little or no advantage, and even can be a hindrance. Illustrating the advantage of experience, if someone who's played football starts talking about what it's like in the huddle, or in a pile up, I defer, not having played. Notoriously many players, with some exceptions, poo poo statistical analysis, or just know little about it. That can be a problem, when the expert eye test is held as the single authority, when (I think) it generally should be paired with quantifiable analysis. Figuring out Avery Bradley's a case in point on our Pistons. Knowing that he's got a TO problem guides the eye to try to discern why.

[cool breeze]

It seems that whenever labron has a slight doubt that his team is good enough to make the finals, somehow Cleveland management is able to make something out of nothing and get the player Labron wants. Your wish is my command. The league bends down and grants his wish. And this is Cleveland not the Lakers. Labron James is one powerful man not only on the court but in the Court of Special Situations in the NBA Front office. Will the powers that run everything make a deal possible so George Hill can join the Cavaliers? Labron might think his team needs a big point guard. Wow that sure strays from the norm. Maybe George Hill is not as good as he used to be when he posted close to the basket and could shoot over our point guards at will when he was with Indiana. But Hill would be a huge upgrade from what we have now. But the way of the NBA is to select 4 teams and load them up with excessive talent and let the rest of the suffering teams suffer even more. I keep saying along with many others that the NBA is losing fan interest because there is not enough high quality players to spread around to all of the teams. The NBA has expanded way too much out of pure greed. All I see now is a lot of empty seats unless you watch one of the designated super teams.

I would for sure love to see Walker or Hill play for the Pistons. But i would hate to see Piston management give up too much to the point where the team is starting over again. It appears that Charlotte is looking to tank and get a strong position in this next draft. Whenever I attend a home game for Arizona this season there are about 30 scouts with GMs hovering around D. Ayton. As Shaq has said, this guy is a once in a generation type player relating to big men. Teams around the league who have no chance of winning squat like our Pistons are willing to give up a outstanding player like Walker and might not require a team like Detroit giving up all of our young developing players. Maybe they would like our number one pick which I always hate giving up. But I can't see them taking on Reggie Jackson's contract. Maybe they would accept Ish Smith and other Piston players to make the deal work. But which players would that involve?

The combination of Walker and Bradley could be very powerful. I might be the only person on this forum who really likes Avery Bradley and still have difficulty understanding that but Oracle does point out that I am really stupid so that might be it. Bradley played with the high scoring Thomas last season. Opposing teams placed their strongest guard defender on Thomas not Bradley. Bradley had a much easier time playing off Thomas. He could also save a lot of energy to defend the best guard opposing Boston. Now it is different. Bradley is supposed to defend the opponents best guard and also be a go two clutch shooter. He is still making incredible cuts and getting open on a dysfunctional offense but making those shots has been a lot tougher. Place Bradley with Walker and I think things would really click in a big way. The Pistons might have one of the quickest and most productive guard combinations in the entire NBA. I would love to at least see it and would not want to throw in Bradley and if Charlotte is tanking maybe they would worry that Bradley might make their team win more games than they want to win.

Maybe a multiple team trade could take place where the Pistons come out shinning. The player that I would put on the trade market now is Andre Drummond. Unless Piston management believes AD is the Pistons future and our franchise player and can lead the team to the promise land, then now is the time to get something really good to give the Pistons a chance to win a championship. I hate losing any of the players that I have pulled for over the past few seasons. I couldn't wait for Charlie V to be gone or when Jason Maxiell was no longer our starting power forward. But for those who have shown grit and promise at times it never a sure thing that they won't suddenly awaken and become winning type players. Kemba Walker is a winning type of player. We will have to give up something substantial to get him. I would like to get a bigger prize than Walker for Drummond. For Drummond I want the number one over all draft pick next summer. That would be a great deal for the Pistons. Detroit could draft D. Ayton who is going to be an All Star within two seasons if not sooner. He has the body, the mind, and the personality to attract a lot of really good players to play with him. If not the number one overall pick then Piston management needs to come up with a plan to secure an athletic defensive minded center who has a high basketball IQ, get Walker, and not lose too many of the core young talent the Pistons now have on the roster. Losing RJ and bringing in Walker seems impossible. Can a miracle happen? Is there any interest at all in Reggie Jackson considering his injury history and his contract? I do not really think there is any way to move Reggie Jackson at this time. Damn it all. I would love to get Walker in a Piston uniform.

[BallinD]

Do the damn trade with Bradley and SJ.  At least, we know Batum would get minutes in SVG's system and Kennard could start or back him up, vice versa with Bullock.  Kemba is our alpha, a better alpha than we've had since the going to work days.  Tobias is our go-to scorer to support Kemba.

Kemba would kill with the Dribble Hand Off, and we need to do it with Tobias more so than Bradley, who is one of our worst finishers at the rim, just a tick ahead of SJ (good riddance).  SVG would not have to labor and overthink his bad thinking.  Can we throw Weggie in?  Only problem with this scenario is it mite save SVG's job.  Coney Islands look out.

Now we have two stars, well one plus Dre. I like our chances a lot better.  If we get Marvin Williams too, we could be fire! We won't be able to keep Bradley anyway, come on, anybody can see that, right?!?!

[Murph]

Batum plays SG is Charlotte, so he would probably step into that starting role in Detroit.  I'm guessing his defense is worse than Bradley's but his scoring and playmaking skills are better.  In fact, Batum might be able to facilitate the motion offense better than Bradley, in that he averages many more assists than Bradley.

The other way to go would be to make Batum the starting SF, which is where is played in Portland. If he returned to SF, we have to keep either Bradley or Kennard, along with Galloway.

[Oracle]

He’s averaging 21.7 points and 5.8 assists per game and is shooting nearly 35 percent from 3-point range.

Murph, in this case I would try to keep Bradley unless we can get a SG in return, but Tolliver, Stanley Johnson, Reggie and a first should do it, but there is the possibility that they would want one more young piece, and that might mean Ellenson.

I'd give up Bradley before giving up Ellenson, but this is a deal that could really alter the current season.

Gotta say that while I wasn't with you on drafting Walker, I wasn't against you, I didn't see picking either as a losing situation at the time.

However, now, I want Walker badly! If SVG can pull this off, he has a PG to build around and could save this season and give us hope for the future, IMO.

According to the article to the right, Walking is indeed on the trading block.  But in order to get him, the Pistons would have to take on a bad contract, such as Batum's.  And that RJ would have to be part of the deal.

I'd probably do that trade.  I'd give up RJ, Bradley's expiring contract, Tolliver's expiring contract and some combination of our most marketable assets (Kennard, our 1st round pick, SJ and Ellenson).

I'd certainly like to hold onto Kennard and the 1st rounder, if possible.  But I'm guessing SVG might pull out all the stops in an effort to acquire Walker and Batum, in order to save his job.  

[Oracle]

I read some of the nonsense on this forum and wonder if any of you have ever played on an organized basketball team.

Amazing, the guy that can't hold complex ideas in his head, can't read to save his life, and misunderstands damn near everything posted, is insulting people again. I'd try to explain these things to you, but like water on a ducks back, what's the point.

[Murph]

According to the article to the right, Walking is indeed on the trading block. But in order to get him, the Pistons would have to take on a bad contract, such as Batum's. And that RJ would have to be part of the deal.

I'd probably do that trade. I'd give up RJ, Bradley's expiring contract, Tolliver's expiring contract and some combination of our most marketable assets (Kennard, our 1st round pick, SJ and Ellenson).

I'd certainly like to hold onto Kennard and the 1st rounder, if possible. But I'm guessing SVG might pull out all the stops in an effort to acquire Walker and Batum, in order to save his job.

[WTF]

There's no one single player that is cause or effect of this teams woes IMO.   We have some decent pieces they're not perfect pieces by no means so IMO what ails this team the most is the inability of management and the coaching staff to recognize this.  

I don't think we have a roster where the pieces can come together all at once, I don't think there will ever be chemistry that allows this team to consistently function on the same page.  IMO the players on this team are selfish,  and don't play smart at all and I put that on SVG because he is not a good coach and in fact I'm starting to think he's an horrible coach.  

Let's talk Heat Check.  This bothers me to no end and is largely in part why I criticize the numbers of 3's this team takes.  If a players 0-4 on 3's why are you still shooting them beyond that.  For whatever reason the players have a hard time recognizing who's hot and who's not it's like a contest out there to see who can jack up the most 3's miss or make.   This happens because again SVG has 2 plays still and just because he added more movement and motion to them don't make it more than 2 plays.

I'm still convince that if we took better shots, high percentage shots throughout the game or record would be a lot better.  I believe we lose games like the one we just loss because offensively we don't play smart. Again this is SVG fault.

I really do miss the days of smart players and smart coaching.  I seeing the PG coming up the court directing the offense and running plays,  Zeke and CB did this game after game.  They found the hot hand be it Rip coming off screens, or Joe in corner for an uncontested 3.  I seeing weak side help on defense  be it Rodman/Salley out of nowhere for the block or the Wallace's controlling the paint.   I definitely miss all the smart coaching we had from 1980 to 2009.   

Basketball is really starting to suck

[cool breeze]

I read some of the nonsense on this forum and wonder if any of you have ever played on an organized basketball team. The head of the snake is the point guard on most basketball teams. When you have point guards who have the bad habit of creating offense for themselves at the expense of their team you have a dysfunctional basketball team. The Pistons are a dysfunctional basketball team like many other NBA teams currently calling themselves the best in the world. What a joke. I imagine that the top Euro teams could destroy our Pistons in a best of 7 game matchup. Our Isiah Thomas has said the most meaningful things about the current way many NBA teams play basketball including our Pistons. He holds our point guards as perhaps among the worst in the league where there are many like ours. Point guards who have great minds over the physical are the best leaders and help their teams win win championships more than any point guard who is dribble happy with a shoot first mentality. The debate over Reggie Jackson and Ish Smith actually makes me laugh. Both are wrong for the Piston organization if they ever want to be successful. Yet both are crowd pleasers much like Will Bynum. There were posters on this forum who defended everything Will Bynum did as he provided the circus act for a losing Piston team. Piston management is providing a circus act year after year and you fans debate which clown is better than the other. How about getting a true point guard who knows how to make his teammates better players? You have to look in a different direction than what is currently popular among the fickly GM group thought. For instance, the number one pick in the 2016 draft was the point guard from Washington. He was not a true point guard. He was a shooting specialist who only looked for his shot who never learned how to play defense or how to beak down a defense and get the ball to his teammates. GMs overlooked everything maybe because of the power for some sports agents who like to promote their clients based on stats instead of how the player affected winning and losing games. Washington was a horrible basketball team and this guy was the number one pick over players like Boston's small forward rookie or Chicago's power forward dead eye shooter rookie who seldom creates a turnover.

Meanwhile Philly knocks off Boston and one player who played a big part along with Embiid was TJ McConnell. McConnell has been overlooked by everyone except his teammates who had the good fortune to play with him leading their teams. He was overlooked but deserved player of the year in the PAC12 despite Bill Walton's plea along with many other people who really know basketball. Then he was not drafted by any NBA team. Philly picked him up and he won a spot on their team the next fall. After playing one season, instead of SVG going after McConnell as the back up point guard, they over paid for Ish Smith who was not in Philly's plans for the future. At the time Philly was the worst basketball team in the NBA but they didn't want Smith. Why was that? Could it be that Smith is a ball dominate point guard who has to have the ball in his hands to be effective. Philly suffered going though many years of losing to eventually win through the draft. They had picked up some real promising players that way and didn't want to ruin things with a ball dominate point guard. So in Philly's win against Boston, McConnell quietly scored 15 points without dominating the basketball, had 3 steals by playing smart defense, got two rebounds and 2 assists in 25 minutes of play. What he did managing the offense and making Joel Embiid look like the 2nd coming was his special gift to his team. McConnell is the son of a basketball coach. All he cares about is winning games. He plays the right way for his team. He places his team first instead of 2nd. What is the value of a TJ McConnell type point guard in the NBA? What do you think after watching our teams flounder around for so many years? If there is any reason to fire this head coach it should be for the reason that he has failed to identify what this team needs most. We need a real point guard like Isiah Thomas keeps saying over and over. Our team has no identity because of the type of point guards SVG places on the hardwood for Piston fans to watch. I hate watching those kind of point guards. Yet you fans seem to keep enjoying the circus act. I am sure the rest of the roster players are sick and tired of playing for ball dominate point guards.

So keep on finding fault with Avery Bradley's game. then next season you can pick apart his replacement as well. Avery is adjusting to this dysfunctional team. It takes time to do that. It is almost impossible to be successful if you are a 2 guard on this Piston team or any Piston team in the last 6 years. He is too small. He misses too many shots. His defense sucks. Why is he defending the best opponent's guard all the time? Why was Ish Smith defending a 6 foot 7 inch player ago while Bradley was playing defense against Kemba Walker? Maybe you missed that? SVG couldn't trust Smith to guard starting caliber point guards? He also cannot trust Reggie Jackson to guard starting caliber point guards.

The Pistons problems do not involve the recent cold shooting of Tobias Harris or anything Avery Bradley does for the Pistons. Everything relating to losing or winning involve how engaged Andre Drummond is for an entire game as a two way player and how selfish the point guards happen to be from game to game. If Smith starts and plays most of the game then he needs to give up the basketball 85% of the time early in the shot clock, set a screen and move without the basketball. Let other players help create the Piston offense. How about that idea SVG? How can this coach tolerate his point guards from game to game? When will he try a TJ McConnell type point guard just for an experiment? No it won't happen because Piston fans are stat obsessed and determine their evaluation on stats. What is the scoring average and shooting percentage of this of that player? They love the excitement that Reggie Jackson brings with his drama at the end of games? I personally liked the old Bad Boys who beat the hell out of their opponents by playing solid smart basketball so that it never came down to the closing seconds of games. They had dominated their opponents so badly mentally and physically that it never depended on blind luck. We depend on blind luck because of our dysfunctional point guard play.

[Sparma]

Thanks Oracle!

I agree about the PG. I'm an Ish fan, but Reggie's better with Drummond (and maybe worse with most teammates). His passing's a plus skill for centers, and credit to SVG for (finally) finding a way to feature that skill.

More on Bradley: he gets trapped in tight quarters more than anyone else, leading to crummy passes. This is due to a combination of things, but especially size (Ish is small, but he doesn't get cornered often due to speed, pretty good dribbling ability, and a good passing eye). In my view, the guy who gets closed in second most frequently is Kennard. That's worrisome, although there's much to like about the guy. His greater size than Bradley and superior shooting ability means he does somewhat better than Bradley when hemmed in.

Not much firepower at the end.

Thinking about the frequent flatness on O, here's my preposterous suggestion: Given the lack of options, I'd like to find out if Dre and Boban could co-exist on the floor at times. I'd see that leading to bigger offensive dynamism. On D, it'd be pretty simple: Dre would need to be the guy venturing farther from the basket; on O, I think Boban has a good enough shot to play a bit farther from the basket (8-10 ft) with Dre in close for put backs and offensive rebounds. I'd give it a whirl given how flat the O can be, but I doubt we'll get to watch that experiment. Twin towers have done some good things in the past though.

I was happy to hear Kelser praise Boban for helping in defending the 3. He pointed out that with Boban anchoring the inside, posing an enormous blockade, the exterior D stabilized. Bad as he is at covering on the outside, he's got real strengths on D. Maybe SVG can bring those out?

Ta

What was missing? A healthy Reggie Jackson or just a good closeout player... Drummond is not that guy!

But Dre did his part, I couldn't have realistically asked for any more! He converted a TON of Bradley misses into points, he just wouldn't be denied. One day he may be the guy you give it to, to bring it home, but that day isn't today. Ballin, that's one hairy Aquaman 

@Sparma - That quietly was one hell of a post, you touched on some seriously important topics.

I still have my doubts about Andre though. After playing exactly as needed for most of the time I watched, he tried doing too much, driving from too far out (Kelser commented on one) leading to empty possessions. He showed me he can play winning basketball; not sure how many complete games playing as needed I've seen though. He's played hard this year though, much to his credit. Just usually wants to do more than I think would benefit the team most.

I have doubts as well, but not about Dre, but the talent around him. He's doing too much because he's missing the piece that we all know magnifies the beast in him and makes him unstoppable... a PG! From Bynum, Jennings, to Reggie, when you pair Drummond with a dynamic PG, this team is unstoppable.

Two years ago when we had Harris, KCP, Morris, Reggie & Drummond, if that team had Boban, Ish, Tolliver, Galloway and crew coming off the bench, we'd be talking ECF at the least.

No, Dre has done his part, he's got the bases covered, he just needs the help of a closer.

Good game by Bradley. I'm going back to our earlier discussion of the eye test vs the stats. The good from the eye test: he seems to be in super shape, plays hard the whole time, scrappy on D, doesn't give up. But the eye test also reveals some weaknesses (setting his shot aside). It's not so surprising that he turns the ball over so much: his handle's mediocre, and he gets knocked around a lot, contributing to TOs. He seems to have more bad TOs than anyone one else, throwing into traffic with no chance of success. Part of that comes from what I described, maybe part of it from him getting the ball late in the clock so often with limited options, maybe because guys don't trust his shot much, regarding him as an emergency out.

Bradley really does pass the eye test very well, it's only after you finish watching do you see how truly bad he was. But Bradley is only bad because we're asking him to do so much beyond what he had to do on the more talented Boston team that we're on the hairy edge of his competence.

Bradley needs a dynamic PG just as bad as Dre does, we get that guy and all of a sudden Bradley is going to pass both the eye test and the stat test much better. I seriously don't know if Reggie can be that guy anymore, I really wish we had pulled the trigger on that Rubio trade, just to see what would have happened.

The Raptors, IMO, are fooling themselves again, they look surprisingly average to me.

Stan's mission has to be to find that closer, or close the books on his Piston career.

[Oracle]

While Bradley is a better player overall than KCP, for SVG, Bradley=KCP.

He's doing the same things he did with KCP, over playing Bradley to the point of diminishing returns.

Bradley can help a contender, and the probability of him returning to SVG's freak show is fast approaching ZERO.

SVG faces tough choices, the only way to get the PG we need may be for him to give up Bradley and change for that PG today, or a high enough pick possibility to get a good player.

Note: Bradley is seeing a specialist about his groin. It would be a huge mistake to fail to move him before he goes down again, and lose that window of opportunity.

[cool breeze]

That didn't happen. The Piston starters were sleep walking again in the first quarter on defense. Also, this team takes too many contested shots in the first quarter that signifies lack of effort in running the half court offense. Maybe some of the fault lies with SVG's toleration of the point guard going off course and trying to be the creator of the offense instead of the team creating open shots by running the motion offense. There is no doubt that Ish Smith plays hard. I appreciate his effort and improved defense this season. He also gets into the paint easily and does set up his teammates for open shots. The problem with that type of offense where the point guard dribbles into and out of the paint is that his teammates have nothing to do and are forced to stand instead of running the plays that the team practices. You get rhythm when scorers run around screens and get to spots that they are comfortable with when they shoot the ball. When the point guard dictates things it seems that the other Pistons are surprised much of the time or are forced to put up contested shots at the end of the shot clock. It is the same old story that I have seen for several years with the Pistons. The team is not well organized or disciplined in running a half court offense and that all stems from the unpredictability of what the point guard is doing when they dominate the basketball for too much of the shot clock. It creates stagnation. The Pistons offense was horrible for most of the first quarter and instead of picking up the energy on defense, the opposite happened and Toronto got every shot they wanted. AD looked much like he did in the previous game for the first half of the first quarter.

Then something happened that was beautiful. Piston guards started helping each other on defense. Smith came over and doubled Bradley's man forcing turnovers. AD then came alive and played the way he was capable of dominating the game. For the rest of the game until the closing minutes, the Pistons looked like they were playing harder than Toronto. But this was another game where the shots were just not falling and the officials were not helping the Pistons either. It seemed that a Piston player made a 3 point shot about 4 times and that shot was waived off because some off the ball insignificiant foul was called as the shot was in the air. Bull crap! But Andre Drummond's work inside kept the Pistons in the game.

It seems that one of the big keys when Detroit wins games is how Tobias Harris shoots the ball. He has had a rough stretch lately. The ball is not not going through the hoop from outside or close to the basket. He is missing layups. That is the way it goes in basketball and everyone of us who has played organized basketball has experienced it. What is important to me is how the team plays the game. I was not disappointed last night. If these players continue to play aggressive on defense and give supreme effort like they did last night, they can win a majority of the rest of the games. If they take a quarter off relating to effort, then it will be more of the same. They will lose. We have no superstars but we do have some players who give a great effort and do not give up. AD needs to be at his best for the rest of the season. He needs to get used to giving the same type of effort he gave last night and everything will be OK. For this team how they play defense will determine how well they finish the season.

It is time to trade Reggie Jackson if that is possible if anything is to be done. Then the Pistons need to obtain a high IQ winning type two way point guard who can get the best out of his teammates. That hasn't happened in my opinion in many years. It seems that the point guards get what they want within the offense instead of thinking about the strengths and weaknesses of the players they are playing with at any given moment. You just cannot go off on your own and dribble around for most of the shot clock trying to create something that isn't there. Players need a point guard who is more predictable and a point guard they can count on to get them the ball if they expend great energy moving around screens or setting screens and releasing. There is no purpose in practicing a half court offense if you don't run it in the games. The point guard runs around dribbling like mad and then throws it to a teammate and seems to say good luck. We need a Zeke type point guard. It has been long over due Mr. Van Gundy. Get a real point guard and bring Smith off the bench for a change of pace for not more than 12 minutes a game. Every fan has their wish list and mine happens to be hoping that one day we will actually get a really smart offensive and defensive minded point guard to lead the Pistons. That point guard will have to come through the draft. No superstar point guard will ever come to Detroit though free agency or a trade.

Meanwhile, I am still enjoying this current team and appreciate how hard they are playing basketball. It was good to see so many fans turn out for the Toronto team. I have been noticing the empty seats a lot this season both at home and away games for the Pistons. As I watch a lot of college games too, it seems that there are a lot of empty seats in many of Arizona's away games. Last night they played California and their arena was less than half full. Are people growing tired of both college and the NBA? Fans know the really good college players will only be in uniform for one season so it is hard for fans to bond. The NBA has too many teams that play too many games that last too long. There are too many players who should have stayed in college for 3 or 4 years. Many young players never develop good basketball habits that they would have been forced to develop by college coaches if they had stayed in college longer. Stanley Johnson is one of those players who left too soon before he became the number one option on his college team on offense. Notice the number one pick in the draft this season who played one year at Washington. There is no way he should have been the number one pick in the draft. Will people who live in Detroit support this Piston team? It doesn't look they they will. So was it a mistake to ever move the team there in the first place? Who is paying for this new arena that cannot support itself through fan participation? How will management convince free agents to play in Detroit knowing playing in Detroit is not like playing in Oklahoma of all places? Great fan base there. Too many other options for Detroit citizens maybe.

[Murph]

Say what you want about Reggie Jackson, but this stretch of games without him has been brutal.  The Pistons are 3-7 since Reggie went down, and if the last two games are any indication, the season is heading south fast.

I think this proves Reggie's value to the team, when healthy.  He's the engine that makes the team run.  The problem is, the guy misses 20 or 30 games every year to injury.  You just can't build a team around a player who is always hurt.  It's time to move on from RJ.

[Oracle]

What was missing? A healthy Reggie Jackson or just a good closeout player... Drummond is not that guy!

But Dre did his part, I couldn't have realistically asked for any more! He converted a TON of Bradley misses into points, he just wouldn't be denied. One day he may be the guy you give it to, to bring it home, but that day isn't today. Ballin, that's one hairy Aquaman 

@Sparma - That quietly was one hell of a post, you touched on some seriously important topics.

I still have my doubts about Andre though. After playing exactly as needed for most of the time I watched, he tried doing too much, driving from too far out (Kelser commented on one) leading to empty possessions. He showed me he can play winning basketball; not sure how many complete games playing as needed I've seen though. He's played hard this year though, much to his credit. Just usually wants to do more than I think would benefit the team most.

I have doubts as well, but not about Dre, but the talent around him. He's doing too much because he's missing the piece that we all know magnifies the beast in him and makes him unstoppable... a PG! From Bynum, Jennings, to Reggie, when you pair Drummond with a dynamic PG, this team is unstoppable.

Two years ago when we had Harris, KCP, Morris, Reggie & Drummond, if that team had Boban, Ish, Tolliver, Galloway and crew coming off the bench, we'd be talking ECF at the least.

No, Dre has done his part, he's got the bases covered, he just needs the help of a closer.

Good game by Bradley. I'm going back to our earlier discussion of the eye test vs the stats. The good from the eye test: he seems to be in super shape, plays hard the whole time, scrappy on D, doesn't give up. But the eye test also reveals some weaknesses (setting his shot aside). It's not so surprising that he turns the ball over so much: his handle's mediocre, and he gets knocked around a lot, contributing to TOs. He seems to have more bad TOs than anyone one else, throwing into traffic with no chance of success. Part of that comes from what I described, maybe part of it from him getting the ball late in the clock so often with limited options, maybe because guys don't trust his shot much, regarding him as an emergency out.

Bradley really does pass the eye test very well, it's only after you finish watching do you see how truly bad he was. But Bradley is only bad because we're asking him to do so much beyond what he had to do on the more talented Boston team that we're on the hairy edge of his competence.

Bradley needs a dynamic PG just as bad as Dre does, we get that guy and all of a sudden Bradley is going to pass both the eye test and the stat test much better. I seriously don't know if Reggie can be that guy anymore, I really wish we had pulled the trigger on that Rubio trade, just to see what would have happened.

The Raptors, IMO, are fooling themselves again, they look surprisingly average to me.

Stan's mission has to be to find that closer, or close the books on his Piston career.

[BallinD]

Aquaman musta heard us doubting him,    Great Game Dre.  Gotta Get That Win Tho, Bro!

[Sparma]

I started watching into the second quarter, so missed the bulk of the bad stuff. Heartening loss, except that the O predictably faltered when they had a shot in the 4th, with the Raptors giving them one chance after another (or the D earning them).

For most of the time I watched, AD played like a guy who could lead the team to victory. He played energetic D, and got most of his points conservatively, nothing fancy, on dunks and put backs. They replayed one sequence where he bodied up aggressively on Valanciunas, bumping him, leading to a miss. And Reggie B earned a replay n he raced from far away to scramble for the loose ball on the floor.

I still have my doubts about Andre though. After playing exactly as needed for most of the time I watched, he tried doing too much, driving from too far out (Kelser commented on one) leading to empty possessions. He showed me he can play winning basketball; not sure how many complete games playing as needed I've seen though. He's played hard this year though, much to his credit. Just usually wants to do more than I think would benefit the team most.

I guess when things are going well guys are tempted to try too much ("Heat check"?). For instance, Galloway shot quite well from distance than tried a shot from way, way out, which clanked.

Good game by Bradley. I'm going back to our earlier discussion of the eye test vs the stats. The good from the eye test: he seems to be in super shape, plays hard the whole time, scrappy on D, doesn't give up. But the eye test also reveals some weaknesses (setting his shot aside). It's not so surprising that he turns the ball over so much: his handle's mediocre, and he gets knocked around a lot, contributing to TOs. He seems to have more bad TOs than anyone one else, throwing into traffic with no chance of success. Part of that comes from what I described, maybe part of it from him getting the ball late in the clock so often with limited options, maybe because guys don't trust his shot much, regarding him as an emergency out.

When I tuned in, with the Raptors well ahead, I was glad to see Boban in there. Maybe Stan's figured out that when you need to score you should generally go with the guy who can score.

Speaking of Stan, he still looked pretty miserable to me, even with Greg and Blaha commenting on how pleased he must be with the Pistons' effort. That's got to get old for players. Hear a former Raider commenting on Gruden, saying he gets on you when you screw up, but celebrates with you when things go well. Not sure how Gruden will far after such a long lay off, but I think that kind of attitude sits a lot better with players in the long run these days than near constant grumpiness (excepting after beating Boston), being on the verge of erupting. I wonder if he'd make a play for front office alone. Can't see him continuing with the coaching gig much longer.

[BallinD]

Dre still does the dipsy-doo when trying to finish around the rim as often as he dunks, even and especially if a smaller defender is in his face; SMH. He gets those shots blocked on the regular -- not a good look.

This is a great year for him, but he isn't really blocking more shots than last year, and actually he is trending down in that department, by the numbers, rather than up. FT's, Rbd, are good but he does not make a difference in the game as we have observed. He is more well rounded this year, but you can't depend on him to get a bucket, get a block or make a game-winning play.

I wanna root for him now, because at least he is trying and he is the underdog for the Embiid's D12s, Gasol's, Gortat's, Anthony Davis, Demarcus Cousins of the world.

Great debate regarding his All Star qualifications.  
I believe he is woefully lacking.  Almost no part of his game strikes fear in an opponent.  
Andres greatest offensive weapon is the tip in.  
Magic Johnson he ain't as a distributor.  
His offense off of the point position is, shall we say 50/50.  50% chance of making a shot or getting fouled, and 50% chance the shot is blocked.  Gotta admit I don't recall seeing a 7 footer get his mess packed as often ad Dre.  Also you notice how he go's about as strong to the hoop off of those moves as he did on a jump hook.  Always fading away.
Dude gets numbers as a rebounder, but I don't believe it's a secret that if on opponent is willing to work the door will be open, cause dude absolutely will not block out.

I don't see a heady guy either.  For instance, you think you may ever see Dre pull a chair, drive into a defender who is slightly out of position, resist reaching,  .......  

[BallinD]

Great find Oracle! LOL

Sung to the theme that should be SVG's guiding light through the deadline, this had me rolling!

Great Question in the headline.  Wait and See, but it depends if we are talking about being relevant again, or scuffling into the bottom seeds of the playoffs and buying SVG one more year of mediocrity.

The way things are going we will have to buy big in hopes of rising to mediocrity.

[WTF]

Now this was a funny headline.

How about looking at old film of our past championship backcourts and say to yourselves : I want be just like them in both effort and character, that should work oppose to just doing your own thing. Sadly the how team needs an identity perhaps they really need to learn the history of this organization and this includes Gores and SVG as well.

[Oracle]

Sung to the theme that should be SVG's guiding light through the deadline, this had me rolling!

Great Question in the headline.  Wait and See, but it depends if we are talking about being relevant again, or scuffling into the bottom seeds of the playoffs and buying SVG one more year of mediocrity.

The way things are going we will have to buy big in hopes of rising to mediocrity.

[lemonpen]

Great Question in the headline.  Wait and See, but it depends if we are talking about being relevant again, or scuffling into the bottom seeds of the playoffs and buying SVG one more year of mediocrity.

The way things are going we will have to buy big in hopes of rising to mediocrity.

[WTF]

Great Question in the headline.  Wait and See, but it depends if we are talking about being relevant again, or scuffling into the bottom seeds of the playoffs and buying SVG one more year of mediocrity.

I don't think it matters.

[lemonpen]

To your knowledge is it unusual (at the NBA level) to have a player use ball denial techniques for most of the game against a single opponent rather than drift away in help D.

Ball denial works on inbounds plays, but I've never seen it being effective over long periods of time.

It's also effective when there is a significant size differential, but again, it's time limited.

Generally the more effective technique is mild ball denial, then use techniques to get the ball out of the players hands. Teams try this on LeBron, but his size and passing ability limits how effective it can be.

BTW, what made you ask this question?

I thought Harris should have had the task of ball denial on the big kid on the Bulls. Seemed like the kid setup at the 3pt line every possession. When the ball arrived he didn't need any time to get a good shot off. And it wasn't like we didn't know how dangerous the kid is cause he drilled someone bad the night before.
JMO but sometimes I think the best D is predicated on taking away a high production guy by preventing the ball from reaching their hands. Rules are too slanted in their favor if allowed to go to work.

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