Really Murph

[WTF]

And never have I seen the level of animosity toward a new coach than I have seen toward Casey, and Casey is more accomplished and more experienced than any coach on that list, with the possible exception of SVG.  

Hold on there Murph I supported only 2 of those coaches (Franks and Cheeks) and I can't recall a single soul that supported Curry.   I think you're reaching quite a bit here on they above statement.  

Also I have said numerous times since the SVG firing and perhaps before that I would like to see Cheeks get a second shot at this team.  IMO both Cheeks and Franks were excellent coaches and they're failures are squarely the results of Joe's interference.   Cheeks was a scapegoat coach for a scapegoated GM and President.  Neither firing were result of bad coach only bad general managing.

IMO Cheeks is still a better choice than Casey and so were a bunch of others not named.  How in the hell is he more accomplished than Franks who been to 2 NBA Finals and I could debate he's not better or that much better than Cheeks.

Okay I get it Murph your sold on the hiring of Casey and that's okay but don't start writing your version of how we did or didn't treat other coaches while you get in defense mode of this hiring.  Below is my position on this hiring and I'm sticking to it.

1. I don't think he's the right coach for this team there were others out there that were clearly better, just those names weren't mentioned don't mean if approached it wouldn't have happen.

2. No matter how much it gets spun as a great hiring I'm simply not buying it the man was fired, and so were many other coaches so it come back to fit and comfortability which I don't see.

3. I'll get behind this MF when this team wins better than 50 games so until that happens I have no love for this coach.  I'm not playing the wait and see game with this coach or this team really.  It's time to deliver, it's been time and immediately delivery of the good are required.  

BTW Murph that above comment is the stuff you know who likes to pull I can't believe you went that route.

[Murph]

In the past, I have always been impressed with how patient and generous this forum as been toward new Pistons coaches.  And based on the number of incompetent coaches that have traipsed through the Pistons organization over the last 10 years, since Flip, that's saying a lot.

The list is long:  Michael Curry (1 year), John Kuester (2 years), Lawrence Frank (2 years), Mo Cheeks (1/2 year), John Loyer (1/2 year) and Stan Van Gundy (4 years).

There are a lot of really bad coaches on that list.  And yet, almost universally, this forum never criticized any of those coaches in their first year of coaching, not even Cheeks who didn't even last a year.  Even though we were disappointed after every hiring that it wasn't Isiah Thomas or Bill Laimbeer, after the initial disappointment, this forum would shut up and give the coach a chance.

And never have I seen the level of animosity toward a new coach than I have seen toward Casey, and Casey is more accomplished and more experienced than any coach on that list, with the possible exception of SVG.  

Believe me, I understand the frustration.  And I understand that we're all getting old and cranky.  I've want Zeke or Bill Laimbeer as coach for over a decade now myself.  But it just isn't going to happen.  

With that in mind, can we please just wait and see how Casey actually does, before we rip him a new one every single day?

[deusXango]

I'm chiming in on the hiring of Dwane Casey, who I personally think is a great hire, all things considered. I see a tremendous difference between Casey and Van Gundy as coaches and that difference is in favor of todays Pistons. I'm not going to bash Casey for the sake of negative bashing but, look at the positives he's bringing to the table.

Toronto fired Casey after a franchise win setting season...yea!! He has every incentive to consistently "own" and surpass one of the top three teams in the east, starting this upcoming season! IMHO that's doable.

His age doesn't bother me because I've seen the results of his basketball wisdom; open minded and the willingness to change. He apparently put together a far better coaching staff than SVG and placed his trust in them. The man's seen a lot of basketball, knows the game, and possess an I.Q. that's as yet, unexplored.

He's already taken the ball out of Reggie's hand, at least that's what I heard him infer, and is placing the responsibility of initiating the offense in Griffins hands (there'll be the "unstoppable" Drummond/Jackson pick & roll but, it won't be the main focus of the teams offense). I seriously doubt we'll be seeing that ridiculous 1 in 4 out anytime soon.

He has one of the best three-point shooters in the league with Reggie Bullock. He had the best season of his career with the Pistons in 2017.

Then, there are younger players that have potential. Guys that Casey can develop into effective rotational players which is something he’s proven he can do.

Luke Kennard had an up and down rookie season. Without reason Stanley Johnson showed flashes last season In spite of having his head messed with. Henry Ellenson is a guy that has yet to get a fair crack at meaningful minutes in the NBA. Fair being the operative word
I'll eat my hat if Casey can't develop three young, talented, and gifted lottery picks that was overlooked by some ass-hole. I see them having more to offer the Pistons rotation than those that stumbled around last year. Stefanski, find someplace for Leuer to go and resign Tolliver.

BallinD, I'm glad that you value Arnie Kander as much as I do, now only if the message can reach Stefanski ear. When you're dependent on a big3 and 2 of them being potentially gimpy doing the season, it's wise to have the best trainer the game has seen on board....our players have to be on the floor, not modeling suits on the sideline, for millions of dollars!

[BallinD]

@Cool Breeze; @Oracle; @WTF: Despite my reservations about Casey, and many similarities to SVG, I wholeheartedly acknowledge he is a big step up from Old Yeller. If he can get us to the second round a few years in a row, we will all be happier. If he can learn from his stubborness and mistakes, he could become something pretty good. Color me cautiously optimistic because at this point, there is nowhere else to go. I watched the Finals and wish we could take a couple of steps up, but we have neither the organization nor the personnell to go to Next Level, which is on Stefanski. Also on Stefanski is to get a top notch trainer (Kander) in here and top level scouts. Oh, and he should put some offensive-minded Asst Coach on the bench ala Nick Nurse.

Aside from that, at least it is not Stupid Van Gundy still running the show.

[cool breeze]

The goal the franchise has is to create some goodwill among the fan base by securing some playoff appearances. That information was beautifully included in the article about Casey's ability to create a good defensive club. Detroit might have been ranked 12th in the league last season on defense but that is very mis leading. The Pistons seldom played like a smart team when the chips were down on defense especially at the end of quarters when good teams try to end quarters on a good note. Tom Gores is determined to drag out the same highly paid players to show all of us that he knows how to pick winners.

There is not much Casey can do with the composition of this current roster. Without Tolliver, I think this team could be a lot worse because he really was a good team leader and played hard for every minute he was on the court. With all the negative feelings that I have about this team, I have to say it will be interesting to see what changes Casey will be making relating to the defensive rotation systems he will employ. Will he have the assistants in place to be able to communicate with Andre Drummond well enough to teach him when and when not to switch in the pick and roll defense? Coaching against the Pistons for so long should be a benefit for Casey. He must know all the weak areas that need improvement relating to defense because he has attacked the players that he felt were the weakest defenders. If Casey preaches hard nosed never give up type effort on the defensive end and sits players who do not play that way, then I will give him my full support win or lose. If he turns a blind eye to lack of effort by the highest paid athletes on the team, then there will be no forgiveness. The Pistons really do not have any super star offensive players. If they win games it will have to be won on the defensive end. Blake Griffin will have to be on board with this premise that this Piston team needs to lead the league on defense this next season. If that happens then there is always a chance to do something special if the players also agree to share the basketball on offense. I know that would be asking a lot from our ball dominate point guards who do not have the skills of Seth Curry.

[cool breeze]

The more I think about this coaching hire the less I like unless you think an older 61-yrs-old guy can change his stripes.  I mean, he sounds like an African American SVG, with a much better feel for player relations.  

But just as stubborn and determined to run his iso schemes and harp on defense till the cows come home,but forget about offensive creativity for a team that was 11th in the NBA on Defense and 19th on offense.  He apparently clashed mightily with the guy charged with making over the Raptor's offense last year, according to news reports.

He was fired and the architect of the GM-mandated offensive makeover was hired to replace him.  He won coach of the year partly on the back of that makeover orchestrated by Nick Nurse.  I mean it was reported he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to makeover the offense by the GM...a bad sign.  Here in Detroit, SVG had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern NBA by his big brother, because he was the defacto GM and had to listen to nobody.  Groundhogs day anybody?

It was reported that Beilein might have taken the job but when the search dragged on and on and on and his name got out into the media he withdrew.  Udoka probably in my mind had a higher upside and less demonstrated old school thinking baggage. Beilein would have been a breath of fresh air.

Here we go again.  Groundhogs Day.

BTW, Casey said he believes in this team.  Well, SVG said that repeatedly.  So what! The road to hell is paved with...

Good Stuff Oracle: https://www.thebasketballnetwork.com/dwane-casey-detroit-pistons-mediocrity/ wrote:
Detroit’s most glaring issues relate to their offense. They ranked 22nd with a scoring average of 103.8, and their efficiency wasn’t much better at 104.9 points per 100 possessions (19th). The Pistons aren’t entirely broken on that end, though. At 37.3 percent, they finished with the fifth-best shooting clip from three-point land. That’s a solid foundation on which Dwane Casey can build. Bullock (44.5 percent) and Kennard (41.5 percent) will keep the floor open for Jackson so he can slide through driving lanes. That space will also provide Drummond the real estate to move around and either set himself up in the post or camp out around the basket for alley-oops and offensive rebounds. That leaves Griffin, whom Casey wants to help become more well-rounded.

Color me unimpressed unless Casey hires the right assistants and listens to them, apparently SVG never got that memo.

BallinD it appears that Tom Gores research team should have hired you but then again Mr. Gores wants no changes made and this hire was meant to protect his pets and we know who they are. Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson posted social media statements advising that they are excited about this new hire of another coach much like SVG. I am sure Toronto has no regrets about removing Casey. He was out coached badly in the playoffs.

Nick Nurse is a smart guy and should do wonders for the Raptors. Imagine if SVG had some assistant coaches with guts and knowledge. At times I was more upset with the assistant coaches working for SVG than the head coach himself. Poor player development, lame mindless lack of coaching the point guards, 2 guards and small forwards. But the practices were easy and sweet just the way our highest paid players like it.

This team will most likely look the same as previous seasons. The Pistons will feature a center who does not fit the modern game and even SVG dared to make a critical statement after the Miami game where AD was not "engaged enough to box out Whiteside. This coach will allow Reggie Jackson to get away with doing whatever he decides is best for him. Remember the time after the players only meeting when Reggie went on a two week spree where he wouldn't shoot the ball just to show his teammates he will not accept criticism from the ranks of the lower paid athletes who wanted the team to play the right way. This was made possible because the owner often butted in to protect his chosen "team leaders".

Maybe some posters on the forum are still in love with RJ and AD. I am not. They drag down this team to the level of small children playing pick up games. These two players are not team orientated players who put the team ahead of their own stats and contract positioning. The Pistons hired another YES man who will protect Tom Gores children.

The only chance this team has now is to trade Andre Drummond for draft picks but that won't happen. So we fans need to just hope the team will be a tiny bit more exciting than last season. For that to happen a fight will have to happen within the team itself to establish which player or players will lead the team. If Blake Griffin doesn't realize what he needs to do to change the culture of the Pistons and defy the owner and his pets and force the team to play the right way, then maybe the only excitement we will see might be when this owner goes off on his own to make another bogus trade and throw in yet another first round pick. How can any fan forgive this owner for giving away our number one pick in this year's draft? What an idiot? Die any of you watch NBATV after that trade was finalized? Nobody thought it was a good deal for the Pistons. Everyone thought the Clippers made complete fools out of the Pistons. What do they think about us Piston fans? Dwane Casey is the new head coach. Big deal who gives a crap? He is not the right man for the job. He will establish a kiss ass approach to dealing with RJ and AD so what is new???

[BallinD]

The more I think about this coaching hire the less I like unless you think an older 61-yrs-old guy can change his stripes.  I mean, he sounds like an African American SVG, with a much better feel for player relations.  

But just as stubborn and determined to run his iso schemes and harp on defense till the cows come home,but forget about offensive creativity for a team that was 11th in the NBA on Defense and 19th on offense.  He apparently clashed mightily with the guy charged with making over the Raptor's offense last year, according to news reports.

He was fired and the architect of the GM-mandated offensive makeover was hired to replace him.  He won coach of the year partly on the back of that makeover orchestrated by Nick Nurse.  I mean it was reported he had to be dragged kicking and screaming to makeover the offense by the GM...a bad sign.  Here in Detroit, SVG had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern NBA by his big brother, because he was the defacto GM and had to listen to nobody.  Groundhogs day anybody?

It was reported that Beilein might have taken the job but when the search dragged on and on and on and his name got out into the media he withdrew.  Udoka probably in my mind had a higher upside and less demonstrated old school thinking baggage. Beilein would have been a breath of fresh air.

Here we go again.  Groundhogs Day.

BTW, Casey said he believes in this team.  Well, SVG said that repeatedly.  So what! The road to hell is paved with...

Good Stuff Oracle: https://www.thebasketballnetwork.com/dwane-casey-detroit-pistons-mediocrity/ wrote:
Detroit’s most glaring issues relate to their offense. They ranked 22nd with a scoring average of 103.8, and their efficiency wasn’t much better at 104.9 points per 100 possessions (19th). The Pistons aren’t entirely broken on that end, though. At 37.3 percent, they finished with the fifth-best shooting clip from three-point land. That’s a solid foundation on which Dwane Casey can build. Bullock (44.5 percent) and Kennard (41.5 percent) will keep the floor open for Jackson so he can slide through driving lanes. That space will also provide Drummond the real estate to move around and either set himself up in the post or camp out around the basket for alley-oops and offensive rebounds. That leaves Griffin, whom Casey wants to help become more well-rounded.

Color me unimpressed unless Casey hires the right assistants and listens to them, apparently SVG never got that memo.

[WTF]

Any new coach is a risk, as Wise would tell you. What Wise misses, IMO, is that while you can't remove risk, you minimize it by taking calculated risks. That's how business and life works, and Casey, IMO, is a risk worth taking because the theory surrounding how he wants to make this team over is very sound.

Absolutely an risk but I still don't think he was our best option and I certainly don't think Gore thought about any calculated risk.  Casey became available and Gore jumped right on it likely because of name recognition from ESPN.

I'm not saying Casey is an horrible choice but there's nothing convincing me at the moment that he's the right choice.  The proof would be in the win column this coming season not 2 season down the road because again I have no interest in playing the wait and see game or riding that Hope Train.  Immediate impact and results are what I'm looking for.

[Oracle]

Because Casey believes in this team!!!

Casey was already paid for one full year after coaching, he could have sat out, picked up a few more bucks as a commentator, and waited for what always happens in the NBA, another coach(or 4) to get fired, and swoop in for the pickings.

Casey didn't do that, he looked at this roster and realized what we all know, they weren't playing to half of their true potential. Unlike us, Casey had a court side view of how badly this team was coached, and knew he could do better. This is a man totally confident he can take this team, with its talents much further than Van Gundy did!

But Casey knew that he couldn't do it if Gores and crew hired his assistants, like they wanted to do with Van Gundy, so he fought them, threatened to walk away if he couldn't hire his own assistants... Gores caved, which was smart, a coach isn't a coach if someone else hires his assistants.

Remember, this is the dude that walked into his interview with FILM, he knows his X/O's. His reasoning is also sound.

As the knee injuries have stolen some athleticism, Griffin has worked diligently to be more than a high-flier. The alterations have been terrific. He showed astute decision-making during his short stint with Detroit, as evidenced by the assist numbers we touched on earlier. The thing that’s eluded him, however, is a reliable three-ball, and Casey explained how he’s adamant on fixing that. Griffin made 111 of his 322 attempts from downtown this past season, a clip that works out to 34.5 percent. Improving by two percentage points adds a fascinating wrinkle.

Griffin could sit in the weak side corner while Jackson and Drummond ran their pick-and-rolls, patiently awaiting the skip pass should his man decide to give extra help around the basket. Kennard would also be on the weak side but up on the wing. Bullock would camp out in the strong side corner. It’s not the most lethal five-man lineup, but it breeds versatility. Jackson has shooters surrounding him and an athletic big rolling to the basket. If he passes out, each of those three can put the ball on the floor and perpetuate the action, allowing the other four guys to move and set up a different look. 

I love this thinking, and was shocked SVG couldn't figure this out, even before Blake.

Any new coach is a risk, as Wise would tell you. What Wise misses, IMO, is that while you can't remove risk, you minimize it by taking calculated risks. That's how business and life works, and Casey, IMO, is a risk worth taking because the theory surrounding how he wants to make this team over is very sound.

While his defensive plans are nice(he did a great job in Toronto), he also recognizes that we're bad offensively due to poor coaching, in the same article,

Detroit’s most glaring issues relate to their offense. They ranked 22nd with a scoring average of 103.8, and their efficiency wasn’t much better at 104.9 points per 100 possessions (19th). The Pistons aren’t entirely broken on that end, though. At 37.3 percent, they finished with the fifth-best shooting clip from three-point land. That’s a solid foundation on which Dwane Casey can build. Bullock (44.5 percent) and Kennard (41.5 percent) will keep the floor open for Jackson so he can slide through driving lanes. That space will also provide Drummond the real estate to move around and either set himself up in the post or camp out around the basket for alley-oops and offensive rebounds. That leaves Griffin, whom Casey wants to help become more well-rounded.

All in all, I'm cautiously optimistic about this team going forward, hell, I'd be off the charts if we got Arnie back!

[Oracle]

First, let me say to Wise, no matter who we hired, you'd have to have a hope that they work out, nobody out there is guaranteed success. You can't let that be your reason, or it's a reason to use against any of your picks as well.

Don mentioned that Blake needs to improve his 3 point shooting, and while I agree he can improve, he's already decent and actually pretty good for a big man.

[Sparma]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the Casey hire.  Having posted negatively about his comment about SVG's excellence and being only 5 games out of the playoffs, I also posted a list of strengths that I found heartening.  I appreciated your responses.

In all, I'll confess I ended up hoping that Udoka would be hired, that the team would swing for the fences.

That said, maybe Casey is the right man for the job at the right time, as several (in the media) have said.

I'd hoped that Toronto assistant Nurse wouldn't have gotten the Toronto head coach position, and that he'd join Casey in Detroit.  

Of course, whatever analysis I (and we) might have to offer, he'll be judged on the results.  I'm receptive to him, and am hoping for improvements.

WTF has referred to "next level" several times, evidently referring to championship contention.  Strikingly, Gores too referred to Casey taking the team to the "next level."

I'll briefly describe what I see as the levels of success.

Along with Vince Ellis, before Casey was hired my initial guess would be 44-45 wins for the team.  I know that some (or all?) would disagree, but that's about what I saw the team reaching even with SVG returning.

Casey will likely score some points just by leading the team beyond 39 wins next season (mildly successful?), but for me, "next level" really begins beyond 44-45 wins.  I'd see him as moderately successful if he leads us there.

For me, the "level" beyond that initial real achievement would be getting where Toronto has been for a few years, averaging just over 55 wins over the past 3 seasons, with some playoff success (twice losing in the conference semi-finals, once in the conference finals).  If I'm understanding Wise accurately, that would not count as "next level" in his book.  Frankly, I'm skeptical that Casey, or any other coach, could get this group there.  I'd count him as very successful if he manages to replicate in Detroit what Toronto's done the past 3 years.

Anything beyond that, I'd see as tremendously successful.  A championship?  Beyond legendary: a miracle worker.

[Oracle]

Too bad the media doesn't read this board!

If you took all of the suggestions here and combined them into one coherent list, it would be a damn good road map towards success for this team. I love all of the suggestions, and additionally, I love the way we all are very close to being on the same page.

Wise & Don are taking a harsh view, but it's understandable and brings up important points. I've tended towards the lower predictions for a long time, but I think this coming season I'll be a bit more optimistic pending the summer league and preseason.

One question: Does anyone think Stefanski will pull a Dick Cheney, and have the person conducting the search wind up being the person that gets hired for the gig?

That's one reason that hiring the coach first wouldn't matter, since he was already hired by his boss... just a thought!

[cool breeze]

For the team and the coach and the organization there are definitely more questions than answers.  I have been so wrong about this team's trajectory in my most hopeful moments and so right on my most cynical days, weeks and months, so there is that.  

Gores:  Can he stay out of the way?  Can he find it within himself to take a step back and recognize the history and tradition of the team and try to find those who will reset that tough, gritty, successful Pistons culture.  Can he find some organizational fresh young blood to complement Stefanski and the other old heads and SVG holdovers in terms of drafting and in general upgrading from seeking middling free-agent acquisitions?  Leave all basketball questions to those who know better than you do (Everybody!). Get a REAL training staff in here ASAP! Identified as a key to the Warriors.

Stefanski:  Can he be creative, specifically buy assets to enhance the prospect of a playoff-deep run, or someday ship, rather than a win-now desperation run toward better mediocrity?  Get some young, offensive-minded talent in the front office and someone who knows how to draft.  Quit giving away picks, you're not that close!

Casey: Can he make strategic in game and meaningful in quarter adjustments.  Was Nurse as "offensive coordinator Asst Coach" the impetus behind the offensive turnaround and moving away from an Iso-ball scheme?  Can Casey design an offense that minimizes Weggie, maximizes Blake so that there is synergy, as he develops SJ, Luke and maybe Ellensen, complements and coaches up Bullock and harnesses Weggie-as-playmaker?  Can he recreate the Pistons DNA Culture?  Can he develop Dre to take the next step up?

BallinD I wish that Tom Gores and the unknown people he listens to had your insight. "Can he stay out of the way?" So far he hasn't and that might be the Pistons biggest problem of all.

[BallinD]

For the team and the coach and the organization there are definitely more questions than answers.  I have been so wrong about this team's trajectory in my most hopeful moments and so right on my most cynical days, weeks and months, so there is that.  

Gores:  Can he stay out of the way?  Can he find it within himself to take a step back and recognize the history and tradition of the team and try to find those who will reset that tough, gritty, successful Pistons culture.  Can he find some organizational fresh young blood to complement Stefanski and the other old heads and SVG holdovers in terms of drafting and in general upgrading from seeking middling free-agent acquisitions?  Leave all basketball questions to those who know better than you do (Everybody!). Get a REAL training staff in here ASAP! Identified as a key to the Warriors.

Stefanski:  Can he be creative, specifically buy assets to enhance the prospect of a playoff-deep run, or someday ship, rather than a win-now desperation run toward better mediocrity?  Get some young, offensive-minded talent in the front office and someone who knows how to draft.  Quit giving away picks, you're not that close!

Casey: Can he make strategic in game and meaningful in quarter adjustments. Was Nurse as "offensive coordinator Asst Coach" the impetus behind the offensive turnaround and moving away from an Iso-ball scheme? Can Casey design an offense that minimizes Weggie, maximizes Blake so that there is synergy, as he develops SJ, Luke and maybe Ellensen, complements and coaches up Bullock and harnesses Weggie-as-playmaker?  Can he recreate the Pistons DNA Culture?  Can he develop Dre to take the next step up?

[cool breeze]

Local reporters and owner Tom Gores are under a microscope now at least with some fans like WTF and myself. They have all for some reason rejected the idea of bringing in some of our former electric players like Zeke to take their turn in running the Pistons in some capacity. Did Tom Gores put the work out to the press not to mention the name Isiah Thomas as a candidate for any job to help lead this Piston team out of the toilet? I for one will not accept this insult. Maybe the owner does not like some of the comments Zeke has made about some of the current Piston players on NBA TV. Would Zeke be a trouble maker or would he speak the truth and force change in the culture of the Pistons if he became President, GM or the head coach? I know this for sure. If Zeke took any of those jobs attendance would greatly improve. Nobody has any faith in this owner's ability to make sound decisions. When draft day arrives, Tom Gores will look like a complete fool when the Clippers make what should be the Pistons first round pick. The Clippers are still laughing at this owner. My bet is that the Clippers bottom line would have been that they would have eaten some of Blake's contract to move forward with their rebuilding plans. Would Zeke ever make such a stupid trade? Somehow we fans keep hoping and dealing with the cards that are now on the table. But make no mistake, the trade involving Blake Griffin was 100% this owner's group's idea. Maybe it is good that Casey was hired. If they give him 7 or 8 years to build a winner most likely that might be enough time to rid the team of all of the current high priced under achieving players.

Oracle and Murph have settled in to face reality of the current situation and have offered their view of how to make the best of the situation. The owner can do whatever he wants to do. If we follow the Pistons then we have to live by Tom Gores decisions so we can't expect much will go right. Based on the current roster minus Tolliver who should command a good contract and won't mind leaving now that SVG is gone, I agree with both Murph and Oracle on most of their ideas.

1. I agree with Murph that Moreland is a solid back up center and expect him to be even better next year because he is a guy who will really put in some hard work knowing that he has found a home with the Pistons. Eric needs to add more muscle this summer. Added weight while keeping his quickness will allow him to really cause some damage in the paint on defense. The players really like him. He is not a chemistry killer and is always in top physical condition.
2. Blake Griffin needs to stay healthy and become the player who initiates the offense not Reggie Jackson. Those days should be over. SVG either could or would not make the change because he is the person who over paid Reggie Jackson and put up with this chemistry killing antics too much. Reggie Jackson can score but can he find a way to score without dominating the basketball so much? He needs to play off the ball and still get points driving, hitting the mid range jumper, and the 3 ball. Meanwhile Blake Griffin needs to work hard on his 3 point shooting to become a deadly threat above the free throw line.
3. The Piston offense needs to feature Andre Drummond less not more. It will be great if AD can make some mid range jump shots instead of throwing up a 8 foot hook on the baseline. The new coach needs to be firm with AD and force him to spend most of his energy playing defense. That is where the team needs him most.
4. Hopefully Casey has identified some players off the radar that he would like to add to his team. The Pistons need more high energy players who have more than one skill set. For sure he has to find the Pistons two new point guards for the long term. I am sure he knows that.
5. Perhaps Casey's most important job will be to get Johnson, Kennard and Ellenson on track to become really solid NBA players. Maybe if Reggie Jackson is forced to play off the ball these players will flourish. Just watching Golden State in the playoffs this year made me envious because they have solid NBA vets who really have helped three young players on that team become successful NBA players. There is no way that they would have progressed at all if they had been forced to play basketball with Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond this past season. The highest paid Piston players have never been identified as good team orientated type players were the theme is one for all and all for one. Casey has to change that culture on the Pistons. The team needs high character type players who only think about winning and will do anything they need to do including helping rookies and 2nd and 3rd year players find their way. Sometimes I wonder if Dennis Rodman had arrived on the Pistons last season as a rookie. Zeke noticed what Rodman could offer his team and he did everything he could to help Rodman become the amazing player he was on the Pistons. Perhaps Dennis would have gone haywire playing with RJ and AD as the team leaders if he had been born a few years later. I can't see where any Piston vet helped Henry Ellenson with the exception of Tolliver who did work with him at times.
6. Blake Griffen needs to be designated team leader and fill that role as leader the right way. He has to give way more than he has ever done in that area of making players better around him. He doesn't have Chris Paul around. There are no other players on this Piston team who are real leaders. Not only will Blake need to demand that every player who gets playing time show that they are actually "engaged" in body and spirit but he will need to find another leader type player to help reinforce the identity he wants to form for the Pistons next season. The Pistons have had some free loaders who often fake it on any given night. I am sure the new coach knows what he is up against and will need Blake Griffin and one other player to become enforcers. Maybe if Johnson comes to training camp prepared to become a solid two way player, he can help Blake set the tone. Ish Smith never takes plays off so he will be a solid true blue hard working team orientated guy. Maybe if Bullock, Kennard, Ellenson, Moreland and Johnson come into training camp with a chip on their shoulders as well as having done the hard work it takes to get better as players, Blake will have an easy time changing the culture from soft to nasty.

Go Pistons! Damn I might purchase NBA PASS after all. But it sure would have been sweet to look forward to who our first round pick might have been. Thanks again Mr. Gores for making it harder to be optimistic about the future of the Pistons.

[WTF]

I'm not getting on no damn Hope Train!   Seeing is believing so as of today I'm sold on absolutely nothing about the Casey hiring even if he is better than SVG.   I'm not joining any 4 or 5 year wait and see plan either we have players making far too much money for that **** and not to be thinking win now.   

Now that we addressed the hiring of a coach the team need to be focusing on getting the right PG.  I'm trying to hear that if Reggie healthy crap either.  Plain and simple an upgrade is needed it goes hand and hand with the hiring of the coach one isn't good without the other.   

Just keep in mind people Casey was fired from a job for failing to deliver the goods, so don't bank on him doing so too soon.  Please know that at the end of the day I still wish we would have tapped into our own history of great players for both the coaching and gm jobs nothing going to change there.

[Murph]

Sparma wrote:

"4) Casey has a strong record of developing in house talent (contrast SVG!!).  PP quotes Deadspin to illustrate the point: “Here’s a fun fact: This season the Raptors gave regular minutes to 11 players, and only three of them—Lowry, big man Serge Ibaka, and sharpshooter C.J. Miles—have ever played even a minute for another NBA team. Pascal Siakam, OG Anunoby, Jakob Poeltl, Delon Wright, Norm Powell, Fred VanVleet, Valančiūnas, DeRozan: all developed in-house, under Casey’s and Ujiri’s stewardship.”


Agreed.  In all of our bitching and moaning about not hiring Zeke and Laimbeer, this has been lost.

We all like to endlessly point out that Detroit is not a destination for NBA free agents, and so we need to draft well and develop our own talent.  Well, that's exactly what Casey excels at...drafting well and developing his talent.  

Needless to say, Toronto isn't a destination from FA either (although they did manage to land Ibaka.)  

And so Casey has developed his in-house talent...DeRosan, Valanciunas, Wright, Anunoby, Siakam, Poeltl, Powell, VanFleet, etc.  Some of those guys aren't exactly household names, but if you look at their advanced stats, most of them are among the leaders of their draft classes.  

DeRozen is a perennial All Star.  Valanciunas is one of the top centers in the NBA. Saikam and Poeltl are both among the top 5 of the 2016 draft class, even though they were picked much lower, and VanFleet was signed and developed as an undrafted free agent.

If given enough time (like the 7 years he was given in Toronto), Casey could just build a winner through the draft that Pistons fans might bond with.

[Murph]

Oracle wrote:

Here's what I'm looking forward to:
1. A MUCH healthier Reggie that will translate to a better team, a better Drummond and Blake
Ideally, Reggie should come off the bench for instant offense.  He should take over the roll that Ish currently occupies.

2. Improvement in Drummond. Yes he's behind, but big man improvement is slow
Drummond needs to improve his defense even more...especially his footwork in the paint, and when to switch.

3. Blake making a bigger impact in fewer minutes
And above all else, Griffin needs to stay healthy.

4. This is Stanley Johnson's year, he starts and becomes a real contributor
IMO, SJ needs to come off the bench as a defensive specialist.

5. Ellenson or Kennard will step up. I hope both, but I think only one will make it.
If only one player steps up, it will be Kennard.

6. We find that defensive backup center
We already have a defensive backup center...Moreland.

If I get two thirds of that I'll be more than happy.

[Oracle]

"They do not like the players more than they don't like the owner or the previous coach. Fans watch the players during those games not the coach or owner. They don't like what they have been watching." - Don

I think you got it exactly right here... We don't really like the players anymore!

When we initially got Stuckey, Knight, Moose, Singler, KCP, Drummond, etc., we were losing big time, but I was excited to watch the games to see how these new youngsters would perform. 

In short, we had HOPE! Hope that the future was bright and that maybe we were going in the right direction. With this team, outside of a few bright lights, the main core is totally unexciting and doesn't inspire a lot of hope.

While I do think we can do very well, I really don't have a strong feeling that it will happen, more of a wait and see sort of deal.

But I'm coming out of the bad feelings because the past is gone, we have to move forward now and I'm ready to do that with a new coach.

Here's what I'm looking forward to:
1. A MUCH healthier Reggie that will translate to a better team, a better Drummond and Blake
2. Improvement in Drummond. Yes he's behind, but big man improvement is slow
3. Blake making a bigger impact in fewer minutes
4. This is Stanley Johnson's year, he starts and becomes a real contributor
5. Ellenson or Kennard will step up. I hope both, but I think only one will make it.
6. We find that defensive backup center

If I get two thirds of that I'll be more than happy.

One important thing: If I read Casey right, what I hear is that he will limit some of Reggie's role and use Blake as a point forward, as an additional way to distribute the ball.

This is important because it opens up attack lanes for Reggie and opens the paint for Drummond. Having two primary ball handlers like that also allows him to stagger the lineups and keep multiple ball distributors on the floor at all times.

This roster provides a LOT of potential flexibility for a coach that's smart enough to use the skills sitting right in front of him. Bullock, Stanley & Kennard should shine in this type of motion offense, and this team should be a very dangerous one.

[cool breeze]

@Phillip: Yes, Gores is a bad owner at times, but SVG was an even worse coach than anybody could have guessed. I had no clue that he couldn't coach a team to their talent and that he would constantly force players to play contrary to their talent and force that old Orlando offense down our throats so much.

@Sparma: Great stuff on Casey, and that steady improvement is refreshing after looking at SVG.

@Murph: You're right, I just never liked the talent combinations on the Raptors. They never had an answer for LeBron. It could be him and 4 other clowns and they'd still get blown out.

@Don: We'll never be able to understand why our greats get the cold shoulder from Gores... could it be Joe Dumars fatigue?

@Wise: I watched all of the finals, 4 short games, and here's what the NBA gave to Cleveland after they took it in the arse.


Why it's not so bad: Should we blow it up? I say no, at least not yet.

Currently the value of this roster is very low, but if you watched the finals, you would have seen plenty of players no better than the ones we have getting rave review, simply because they're part of a winning program.

If our new coach can get us into the playoffs, the buzz around our players would increase along with their value. If we make it to the 2nd round, the value of this roster starts to soar.

That's when an astute GM strikes and moves valuable parts for either picks or better fitting players. This is what I would prefer us to do because I see a roster that's good, but poorly coached and managed. Hell, even Blake could EASILY be moved to a contender if we started winning.

Oracle your message to Phillip might not be completely correct. Maybe we Piston fans are not venting but suffering from depression after facing the ravishing rod of reality where we wasted precious time watching a team owned by an incompetent owner who hired a head coach, President and GM who ran an offense that didn't fit the roster but coached players who could not win playing any other type of offense. We will now find out if some of our highest paid players (AD-RJ) are coachable. I believe Reggie Jackson is a chemistry killer and Andre Drummond is not a coachable player. Why are they still here? They have been the team leaders on losing teams that played at times with below average effort. Why are they here and the coaches always get fired? Some of us do not want to watch them play for the Pistons anymore. This coming year will tell Piston fans a lot. I wonder how many fans will still support them if all they do is just make the playoffs. My guess is that many still will love them and keep checking the stats to prove how good they are for Detroit. Any coach who is worth anything doesn't need to look at a stat sheet to figure out what happened in the first half and then after a loss. It is easy to see how opponents beat up on certain players etc.

How many fans would agree to a even up trade of Andre Drummond for Anthony Davis. My bet is that some of you wouldn't want to do it. However, it appears that Reggie Jackson is on thin ice as compared with AD who lost big but shot free throws better at least. Fans will be watching Reggie. The new coach will be forced to watch Reggie's contract and get sick to his stomach because he will not only have to play RJ but also Jon Leuer who commands $10 Mil for another season. Golden State has three young kids who played well in the playoffs. They are tough hard nosed players who defend and actually block shots and know how to play in a complicated defensive rotation system. We have AD and Jon Leuer. No room for any young guys that Golden State found and developed. This year will be another head scratcher at best. What hurts the most is that we have no number one pick. Tom Gores gets the dunce cap award for throwing in that pick to the Clippers. But he loves LA and the Clipper owner. What a nice guy. Oracle the state of the Pistons sucks. There is no other way to sugar coat this current roster. We are in no man's land. I would rather be in Atlanta's position. We make the playoffs but have a horrible team. Next summer the owner will be celebrating making the playoffs. Next year the teams in the Eastern conference will be even weaker. WTF is on target with his rant. There is a sick feeling with many fans. They do not like the players more than they don't like the owner or the previous coach. Fans watch the players during those games not the coach or owner. They don't like what they have been watching.

[WTF]

WTF: "the culture around basketball now makes my stomach turn."  That sounds intense, Wise.  Nothing against walking away from basketball, but what would take its place for you?  I've got mixed feelings about being a basketball fan, and about following sports in general: a) much of it amounts to a waste of time, yet b) sports provides important markers (in my life) linked to what makes life meaningful, not least because of the connections with others, including this forum, triggered by sports.

Sports were suppose to be a place of refuge away from all the day to day nonsense life brings.  For me it was the only thing left that made any sense it was simple you play hard and give it you're best, you either won or you loss.   Nowadays sports is a joke almost completely across the board. 

There fan too much fan involvement that political and religious views matter more than the game itself.  People might think its funny but this whole kneeling issue, and this dumb ass president spouting off makes me sick.  I wish Kap could have done something different to protest because I knew the message be lost and bury beneath the bullshit.

The level of GREED in sports right now is also sickening,  I remember us all debating on the old forum about the CBA and I sided with the owners but I also said that the owners would screw things up because they have no self control.  It sickens me to no end to hear about players taking games off, not being prepared to play and all the other countless excuses.  AD and BG contracts make me want to vomit because there should never be games taken off, practice missed, and not an all out above 100% effort.  

Same **** with owners that just want to fill arena sits and the nerve of Gore to think trading for BG is the trick for doing so.  **** Blake if he can't deliver Championship and AD ass as well.  I know that yes I'm okay with Stafford short lived biggest contract in all the NFL but at least he lays it on the line all the time,  I can honestly say he earns it perhaps not in delivering a Super Bowl but he's not out there half assing it and pouting like a little bitch or giggling like a little girl when he should be mad as hell.

Again I harp on the 80's but those under paid players not making 100 of millions of dollars played to win, they played for the love of the game and put it on the line night in and night out.  IMO BG and AD are okay with losing and that is not the type of players I want to cheer for.  Losing wouldn't be so bad if we knew they put it on the line every night and that they truly went to battle and just loss.

It use to hurt deeply when Zeke and Kelly  couldn't make it out the first round,  it hurt when they couldn't get pass Boston and I was sick for days when they lost in their first finals against the Lakers.  I don't get sad when this current group loses, I'm more mad and angry about the effort they've gave or how dumb they've played.  

I hate the talking heads and all their dumb ass theory and most of all I hate all the meaningless advance stats.  I know many of you think they're useful maybe but I doubt it.  I say this in all honesty that thus bullshit stats were used in the past to win so way are they so relevant today?  No stat will ever be better than the eye test,  like microwaves aren't better than conventional ovens, and film is still better than digital.

I do enjoy the forum but we are small in numbers now not like the days of old when we really had things to talk about and the team was exciting, it's been down hill since 2004 even though 2005 was just as exciting but the decline was already in when we let Memo walk and traded Corliss.  The story was we needed to keep Sheed but I think Joe was trying to save face because he fucked up with Darko.  

Nowadays we sit here discussing if a former G-Leaguer should be getting some burn, and putting up with Reggie sorry ass while making excuses for lazy ass overpaid players.  Believe me I'm tired of moaning likely as much as all of you tired of hearing me moan.

[Oracle]

@Phillip: Yes, Gores is a bad owner at times, but SVG was an even worse coach than anybody could have guessed. I had no clue that he couldn't coach a team to their talent and that he would constantly force players to play contrary to their talent and force that old Orlando offense down our throats so much.

@Sparma: Great stuff on Casey, and that steady improvement is refreshing after looking at SVG.

@Murph: You're right, I just never liked the talent combinations on the Raptors. They never had an answer for LeBron. It could be him and 4 other clowns and they'd still get blown out.

@Don: We'll never be able to understand why our greats get the cold shoulder from Gores... could it be Joe Dumars fatigue?

@Wise: I watched all of the finals, 4 short games, and here's what the NBA gave to Cleveland after they took it in the arse.


Why it's not so bad: Should we blow it up? I say no, at least not yet.

Currently the value of this roster is very low, but if you watched the finals, you would have seen plenty of players no better than the ones we have getting rave review, simply because they're part of a winning program.

If our new coach can get us into the playoffs, the buzz around our players would increase along with their value. If we make it to the 2nd round, the value of this roster starts to soar.

That's when an astute GM strikes and moves valuable parts for either picks or better fitting players. This is what I would prefer us to do because I see a roster that's good, but poorly coached and managed. Hell, even Blake could EASILY be moved to a contender if we started winning.

[Murph]

Sparma....good post.  I hate to be put in the position of defending Casey, but let’s face it, Toronto never had the talent to get by Lebron and the Cavs in the playoffs.  Red Auerbach could not have coached the Raptors past the Cavs.  

Casey isn’t my 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice as coach of the Pistons, but he did a good job in Toronto, and he at least deserves a chance, before we start ripping him.

[cool breeze]

I think it was Wise who issued the challenge the challenge to look at Casey's resume, and see something impressive he's done.  I've checked (gulp) Wikipedia, a recent article on PP, and an article on his wife and did find some impressive things, or at least some things that I like about him.

(Before proceeding, I was heartened to see that the case of the $1000 he was thought to have sent in an envelope as a UK assistant was not as straightforward as I'd been thinking.  He resigned, but as Wiki has it there was a major counter: "The NCAA later rescinded the penalty after it was shown that Casey wasn't involved in sending the package.  Casey also settled outside of court in a defamation suit against Emery Worldwide."  So, what I'd thought what a big strike against him, was less clearly so than I'd been thinking.)

Ok, three positives from Wiki to begin the list of positives.

1) The first is pretty lukewarm, admittedly.  He gets fired as coach of the Timberwolves into his second season.  Bad.  But the team was 20-20 when he was fired, then went 12-30 the rest of the way without him.  Looks good for Casey, at the end of the season he was fired.

2) I'm thinking that the main Finals that LeBron would like back is the one against Dallas, when he was far from his best.  I remember Mark Cuban boasting about the sophisticated defensive schemes used against LeBron.  He seemed to be alluding to an application of analytics based on film studies (of course, we also know that Carlisle was/ is a heck of a coach.).  Wiki reports that James "would later admit that Casey's defensive schemes for Dallas helped make him improve his game even further after that series."  If he's right, chalk one up for Casey.

3) Casey coached in Toronto for 7 seasons.  His team got better in one but one season (doing quite well even in the exception, winning 51 games).  That kind of steady, long term, progress is extremely difficult to attain.  (I realize that the GM as well as the assistant, Nurse, may need to share a good deal of the credit, of course, along with the maturing players.)

The list of positives continues, drawing from the PP piece advocating for his hiring:

4) Casey has a strong record of developing in house talent (contrast SVG!!).  PP quotes Deadspin to illustrate the point: “Here’s a fun fact: This season the Raptors gave regular minutes to 11 players, and only three of them—Lowry, big man Serge Ibaka, and sharpshooter C.J. Miles—have ever played even a minute for another NBA team. Pascal Siakam, OG Anunoby, Jakob Poeltl, Delon Wright, Norm Powell, Fred VanVleet, Valančiūnas, DeRozan: all developed in-house, under Casey’s and Ujiri’s stewardship.”

5) He appears to have a forte in developing relationships with players.  We've debated their source, Rod Beard, before.  Beard writes: “Casey is regarded for having good working relationships with his players, one of the biggest criticisms of Van Gundy in his four seasons with the Pistons. Casey helped to nurture a budding DeMar DeRozan, who was just beginning his career with the Raptors and helped build the chemistry to make Toronto a perennial contender.”

6) Feel free to think I'm going off the rails here, if you didn't already: he cries when he goes to the movies, per his wife.  Not sure why he'd cry "every time", but still, I see that capacity for emotional vulnerability and expression as a strength, also in an NBA coach.

One more curiosity, from the piece on his wife: "Brenda is also a sports marketing executive (or she used to be) and one of her clients was Ben Wallace. That was back around 2007...."  So there is a link with the Pistons' great past! (that may have been before Dwane entered the picture though).

I've been having trouble getting excited about Casey, but after a bit of reading about the guy I'm seeing more clearly that there are several things to like about him, as a person and as a coach.

Sparma thanks for sharing your research on coach Casey. Great job. I especially liked number 6. I remember some of my Dad's WW2 friends confessing that they could suffer hardships in war without crying but could not hold back the tears when they saw an emotional love scene at the movies. Maybe they cried because most thought they would not make it back home to experience the love of a woman. Now you need to find out what type of scenes causes Casey to cry over. Just kidding Sparma and I really appreciate everything you do for the forum.

Maybe the owner thinks he needs to throw a bone to the old Piston fans by hiring Prince as GM. I respect him TP a lot as a man and former Piston player. Still puzzled that Zeke's name has not even been mentioned by Mr. Gores. Many feel that Zeke would bring better luck if nothing else for the Pistons.

[Sparma]

I think it was Wise who issued the challenge the challenge to look at Casey's resume, and see something impressive he's done.  I've checked (gulp) Wikipedia, a recent article on PP, and an article on his wife and did find some impressive things, or at least some things that I like about him.

(Before proceeding, I was heartened to see that the case of the $1000 he was thought to have sent in an envelope as a UK assistant was not as straightforward as I'd been thinking.  He resigned, but as Wiki has it there was a major counter: "The NCAA later rescinded the penalty after it was shown that Casey wasn't involved in sending the package. Casey also settled outside of court in a defamation suit against Emery Worldwide."  So, what I'd thought what a big strike against him, was less clearly so than I'd been thinking.)

Ok, three positives from Wiki to begin the list of positives.

1) The first is pretty lukewarm, admittedly.  He gets fired as coach of the Timberwolves into his second season.  Bad.  But the team was 20-20 when he was fired, then went 12-30 the rest of the way without him.  Looks good for Casey, at the end of the season he was fired.

2) I'm thinking that the main Finals that LeBron would like back is the one against Dallas, when he was far from his best.  I remember Mark Cuban boasting about the sophisticated defensive schemes used against LeBron.  He seemed to be alluding to an application of analytics based on film studies (of course, we also know that Carlisle was/ is a heck of a coach.).  Wiki reports that James "would later admit that Casey's defensive schemes for Dallas helped make him improve his game even further after that series."  If he's right, chalk one up for Casey.

3) Casey coached in Toronto for 7 seasons.  His team got better in one but one season (doing quite well even in the exception, winning 51 games).  That kind of steady, long term, progress is extremely difficult to attain.  (I realize that the GM as well as the assistant, Nurse, may need to share a good deal of the credit, of course, along with the maturing players.)

The list of positives continues, drawing from the PP piece advocating for his hiring:

4) Casey has a strong record of developing in house talent (contrast SVG!!).  PP quotes Deadspin to illustrate the point: “Here’s a fun fact: This season the Raptors gave regular minutes to 11 players, and only three of them—Lowry, big man Serge Ibaka, and sharpshooter C.J. Miles—have ever played even a minute for another NBA team. Pascal Siakam, OG Anunoby, Jakob Poeltl, Delon Wright, Norm Powell, Fred VanVleet, Valančiūnas, DeRozan: all developed in-house, under Casey’s and Ujiri’s stewardship.”

5) He appears to have a forte in developing relationships with players.  We've debated their source, Rod Beard, before.  Beard writes: “Casey is regarded for having good working relationships with his players, one of the biggest criticisms of Van Gundy in his four seasons with the Pistons. Casey helped to nurture a budding DeMar DeRozan, who was just beginning his career with the Raptors and helped build the chemistry to make Toronto a perennial contender.”

6) Feel free to think I'm going off the rails here, if you didn't already: he cries when he goes to the movies, per his wife.  Not sure why he'd cry "every time", but still, I see that capacity for emotional vulnerability and expression as a strength, also in an NBA coach.

One more curiosity, from the piece on his wife: "Brenda is also a sports marketing executive (or she used to be) and one of her clients was Ben Wallace. That was back around 2007...."  So there is a link with the Pistons' great past! (that may have been before Dwane entered the picture though).

I've been having trouble getting excited about Casey, but after a bit of reading about the guy I'm seeing more clearly that there are several things to like about him, as a person and as a coach.

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