Re: FORUM

[cool breeze]

At PP, Duncan Smith passes along a mathematical ranking of players, accompanied by some description.  I found the following tidbit striking: "Next up is Avery Bradley, rated 6.25 with a single ranking of 8 and several 5, thanks to the fact that he is probably both the best shooter and best defender on the Detroit Pistons’ roster."

Sparma Avery Bradley is the best thing the Detroit Pistons have had in many years. We have a real genuine two way high basketball IQ player who has the personality of a leader. Because the Pistons have been without a leader since Mr. BigShot was traded (one of the worst moments of Piston history) perhaps many of the chemistry issues that have plagued this team since Billups will disappear. Players will get behind his leadership and the nonsense will end unless the coaching staff gets in the way.

[cool breeze]

Everyone seems excited for the simple news leak that Reggie Jackson will not be ready to fully participate in training camp this fall. Last season Piston management made a huge mistake to mislead everyone into believing that everything would be OK once RJ finished his rehab. Then SVG went brain dead once Reggie was given the green light to return. After one week it was clear to me that Reggie Jackson had not earned a spot in the rotation. Reggie himself should have did what some star tennis players do when they know injuries will prevent them from playing at a high level. RJ faked it and he looked really bad. His turnover rate was incredibly bad but his defense or lack of ability to play defense was pitiful. BUT IT WAS GOOD ENOUGH FOR SVG. How could a head coach do that? That is why so many Piston fans no longer trust him. He has blinders on and his staff did nothing to help SVG recognize what was going on. There was other drama relating to AD and his slacking once he saw Reggie couldn't deliver the basketball to him anymore. SVG knew AD was slacking and playing dummy defense but did nothing about when doing something counts. It wasn't until the off season that SVG got up the courage to tell the press that he wants AD to become more engaged with defense. Like BallinD, dX, and WTF keep pointing out, Piston fans have lost faith in Piston management's designated stars as well as this coach. It is time for SVG to reveal his plans for next season. Please tell us you are not counting on the return of Reggie Jackson. Let Reggie sit out the entire season so the team can focus on the players who are available. Remember last season before Reggie returned? Many of you liked Ish Smith. I wasn't too impressed because SVG wanted Ish to play the style that Reggie plays. Ish often over penetrated and dominated the basketball too much. He had big issues getting all five players involved in the offense. He never really could do that in my opinion. But one guy could and that guy was Beno. It was refreshing to watch Beno come in off the bench and you could see that his teammates really enjoyed playing with him because he was a high basketball IQ player. He was older but knew what the hell how to play the right way. How can SVG explain his decision to send Beno to the end of the bench for half of the season. The Pistons were never the same team once he did that. And to this day I wonder if SVG has a clue what he did wrong. It is clear that SVG and his staff are a bunch of over paid lazy minded stubborn boring has been coaches who should have been fired at the end of this past season. We need an completely new coaching staff. I doubt that SVG can successfully bring out the best in the talent he has and I doubt he really knows who the most talented basketball players really are to this day.

I like all the posts lately. Bradley should be the starting point guard and Galloway should be the point guard coming off the bench this season. I am not sure Kennard is ready to start at the 2 guard position but for sure he needs to be a key rotation player if not a starter at the beginning of the season. If Kennard can defend then he should be in the starting lineup if Bradley is the point guard. Drummond needs to focus on defense and play with passion all the time. If he slacks again or goofs off trying to be an offensive star, then he needs to be right next to Reggie Jackson on the bench or traded. This team needs Ellenson to be part of the rotation too. He might make mistakes on defense but there will be no doubt that he will give 100% effort and is smart enough to figure things out quickly on how he can best help this team. This team has some really athletic players too. This team has some smart players like Johnson who will fill whatever role is needed relating to doing the dirty work like setting hard screens, playing hard nosed defense and hitting the defensive boards hard. And although we lost a great team orientated older guy in Beno who mentored Ellenson and others last season, this season we have Tolliver back who will be watching Drummond for slacking offenses. AD is capable of becoming a monster defensive ace if he puts his mind to it. It will be up to his teammates to demand that from him.

But I am not feeling it from this coaching staff at all. What combinations are they talking about? Will it be the old 4 out and 1 in again with Ish and Reggie dominating the basketball until the team is brain dead? We need point guards who are unselfish and see things develop at least two times faster than their competition. According to Laimbeer, Zeke could see things 3 times faster then opponents. When you dribble the ball around looking for a hole to drive through and take 10 seconds doing it, you should be sitting on the pine or metal bench because you are thinking slower not faster than your opponent. Zeke would agree with that statement. SVG likes to see all that dribbling. His assistant coach who works with the guards likes it too. At least they did nothing to stop that nonsense last year so what should we think? Were the players last season not coachable or were the coaches unable to create an offense and defense to fit their players and make adjustments when players performed below standard? They failed as much as the players in my opinion. SVG looked very unhealthy last season. And he continues to look unhealthy. He needs to drop about 60 pounds before the regular season begins so he can think quicker and have more energy so he can make the right adjustments and communicate better with the players. The days of coaches coming in to practice looking like they have been on an eating binge for 10 years without a break might have worked in the old days but now professional players work their butts off with strict workout routines and watch what they eat so they can perform at peak level. Even the pro golfers do it now. What do the players think of obese coaches trying to run a practice? So where in hell has SVG and his GM been for the last 5 years? What if SVG got on a new healthier lifestyle like Sean Miller at Arizona? SVG used to coach with Miller. Why doesn't ask Sean how he managed to change his lifestyle? It takes hard work. Sean lost at least 50 pounds and looks and acts 20 years younger and he says that he coaches better now and does relate better with his players. I watched SVG and his GM in Chicago where the draftees were being scrutinized and they looked very unhealthy and looked out of place in my opinion. I wish for their sake, they would get on a new program. Right now I will settle for them to reveal their plan for success this coming season hopefully without Reggie in those plans. The Pistons are ready for a new style. Are the coaches ready to help them or will they hold this team back?

[WTF]

[Sparma]

At PP, Duncan Smith passes along a mathematical ranking of players, accompanied by some description. I found the following tidbit striking: "Next up is Avery Bradley, rated 6.25 with a single ranking of 8 and several 5, thanks to the fact that he is probably both the best shooter and best defender on the Detroit Pistons’ roster."

[WTF]

Recently I discovered a TV show on Netflix called Blacklist I swear this is one off the best shows I've seen in like forever.  Hate I wasn't up on this sooner if you haven't seen it I recommend it.

Just read the piece on Henry Ellenson and I just more impressed by this guy.  I said I would rip this team apart and keep only Kennard and Ellenson the article would explain my feeling on that.

This offseason, I’ve been in Detroit a lot. Every morning, I go lift for an hour so I can get my legs and core stronger. I’m the youngest guy on the team, but that’s no excuse; I need to be stronger, I need to be able to compete and I need to hold my own. I’ve been doing a lot of squats and work on my lower body. I’ve really been working hard in the weight room. Then, for my on-court workout, I’m making sure I’m as versatile as possible. I’m not a one-dimensional player – I want to be able to do as many things as possible – so I’m always trying to expand my skill set. Shooting is another area I’m focused on because last year, as a team, that’s something we didn’t do as well as we should have. I know being able to knock down shots when I’m open is important and I think my shooting could be a way for me to get some minutes. I felt like during Summer League, I was able to show that my shot has improved. These last few weeks, I’ve been working on getting my guide hand off a little sooner so that the ball comes off of my right hand a little bit cleaner. I’ve made some minor tweaks like that, but they make a big difference.

We have vets on this team that should be talking like this.  How often to we hear enlightening words like this from Andre, Reggie and others. Remember how these were common off-season words vets like Rip, Tay, and Ben they always talked about getting better,  same thing we got with players like Rodman, Salley and so on.  Hell even Zeke talked about getting better even when we thought he was already there. 

I can't attach myself to the Reggie's and Andre's of today NBA

[lemonpen]

KCP:  Avg- 14.3 ppg, stdev- 8.1 ppg,  %of avg- 57%,  single digit scoring gms - 24,  % of gm played - 33%

AB:    Avg- 16.2 ppg, stdev- 5.2 ppg,  %of avg- 32%,  single digit scoring gms - 5,  % of gm played - 9%

The numbers indicate AB is more of the kind of guy that takes shots he is able to make.

For Reference
Durant: Avg- 25.5 ppg, stdev- 6.6 ppg, %of avg- 26%, single digit scoring gms - 0, % of gm played - 0%

[Oracle]

Because Bradley is only 6'2, I don't think he was ever the LT solution at SG, only a stop-gap measure with KCP's departure.  And of course, he have Kennard waiting in the wings as the heir apparent to the starting SG spot as soon as he's ready.

With that in mind, a lot of us have been calling on SVG to give Bradley significant minutes at the point, to see how he performs.  Yes, he broke in as a PG in Boston, underwhelmed and had to be moved to SG.  But that was seven years ago.  Hopefully, his skills have improved since then.

With Jackson's knee still flaring up again, this is the perfect opportunity for Bradley to play significant minutes at PG.  And if he performs well, why not move him to starting PG, and move Kennard into the starting lineup?  Then re-sign Bradley in the off season.

And yes, in hindsight, SVG should have done the Jackson for Rubio trade, but only because Rubio would be a better back-up PG than Ish Smith.

Murph, that's a very good argument for trying out Bradley at the PG position, and if positioned there, his height isn't a big issue anymore.

In fact, there has been talk that his handles have really improved, and in the video, you can see, as DX pointed out, that he's capable of playing there. He isn't, and never has been an assist machine, but that may be more due to what they asked of him more than his capability.

But while he may be a better defensive PG than Reggie, he isn't a better shooter than Reggie. However cutting down on dumb and ball pounding may make up for that.

What further sold me was that you mentioned that Kennard is likely the long term solution at SG, and the feeling of most of us is that is likely the case.

BTW, Rubio is BRUTAL offensively, that's a movie that's hard to watch, but he does most of the other things right and he has good size, so you're right, he'd be a great backup PG.

[Murph]

Because Bradley is only 6'2, I don't think he was ever the LT solution at SG, only a stop-gap measure with KCP's departure. And of course, he have Kennard waiting in the wings as the heir apparent to the starting SG spot as soon as he's ready.

With that in mind, a lot of us have been calling on SVG to give Bradley significant minutes at the point, to see how he performs. Yes, he broke in as a PG in Boston, underwhelmed and had to be moved to SG. But that was seven years ago. Hopefully, his skills have improved since then.

With Jackson's knee still flaring up again, this is the perfect opportunity for Bradley to play significant minutes at PG. And if he performs well, why not move him to starting PG, and move Kennard into the starting lineup? Then re-sign Bradley in the off season.

And yes, in hindsight, SVG should have done the Jackson for Rubio trade, but only because Rubio would be a better back-up PG than Ish Smith.

[WTF]

Pry Trey Burke from the Wizards I would still prefer him over Ish,  pry Stauskas from the Sixers.


I would then start Burke PG and Bradley SG.  Yes small backcourt but I'm sure Burke would get the ball to Bradley, Harris or whomever.  Burke was also very good at the P&R game.  

I would then bring Kennard PG and Stauskas SG off the bench.  Nice change of pace I think and size to boot that can shoot the 3 ball.  Put them on the floor with Ellensen and Leuer  who can also shoot the 3 ball.  

I believe this would work 

[WTF]

“He’s got great feel. He plays at his pace, which is pretty impressive,” Walters said. “He doesn’t get rattled. I’ve seen him go up against guys who try to get physical, guys who are super athletic. He never gets fazed. He plays his game.”


Scoring comes as naturally as breathing to Kennard, who averaged 38 points as a high school senior to lead Franklin High against strong competition in southwestern Ohio. He then led Duke in scoring as a sophomore – ahead of No. 3 overall pick Jayson Tatum – even though the Blue Devils returned their leading scorer from 2015-16, Grayson Allen. But Walters sees more than a scorer in Kennard.

“He can pass, handle and shoot it obviously at a high level,” Walters said. “I don’t know what happened in college, but I think he’s a pretty good defender. He’s got a chance to be a pretty good defender here. It’ll be interesting to see what happens when we go against the fellas” – Kennard’s veteran teammates as they gather at the team practice facility in advance of training camp later this month – “and now he’s guarding Avery and our guys. But also not having the familiarity of going against them every day and now we go to Boston, we go to Chicago.”


In addition to having good size for the position and adequate lateral quickness, Walters sees another ingredient he believes bodes well for Kennard’s capacity to hold his own at the defensive end.

“He’s really, really intelligent, very smart and competitive. That’s going to give him a chance to be a pretty darn good player for us.”

This is why it's hard not to think that Kennard would be great if used correctly.  I've seen his clips from college and SL, but would love to see clips from his H.S. days.

This also had me thinking about adding another player to our mix.  You all know I have an undying belief that Trey Burke will be a above serviceable PG place on the right team and in the right systems.  There was another Wolverine I was high on as well perhaps just as much as I was with Burke so I can see this player on this squad as well and that player is Nik Stauskas.  I think we can get him from the Sixers

[deusXango]

I love it too but who's going to feed him the rock Why not put the rock in his hands and let him feed Kennard, that is unless you feel RJ is a better shooter and defender than those two.

[WTF]

I love it too but who's going to feed him the rock

[Oracle]

Each has a page, and here's what's on that page,

1. Their NBA Career Highs
2. Graphs of their comparison to the average SG

Shockingly, their almost identical, but with KCP having some slightly higher career highs and doing some things a lot of times, but take a look.

Bradley: https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Avery-Bradley/Bests/2194

KCP: https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Kentavious-Caldwell-Pope/Bests/24162

Their Head to Head is also interesting.

Bradley is a bit more consistent, which is to be expected on the better team, but they basically break even. The difference is that when KCP beats him in the head to head, he beats him badly. KCP not only out scores him by a lot, he holds him to very low scoring. I marked up the table below in red.



@DX - Yes, Bradley looks good, but remember, it's a highlight video. You can show one of these for a lot of players, but the only thing you should get out of them is the possibilities of the player, not what they deliver on a regular basis unless they're a super star or high level player.

[deusXango]

Thanks for the vid clip Oracle, it's made a great point for Bradley being PG, SG, any backcourt position one would want to plug him into. I'm going to differ to the great Isiah Lord Thomas, when asked about where he stacked up against the PG's of his day and he responded by saying "I'm a basketball player; I don't try to do anything but play the best basketball I can." Avery Bradley is a basketball player! He walks like one, talks like one, has the mental toughness like one; he's a superior basketball player, compared to the Brandon Jennings, Will Bynum's, Reggie Jackson's, and the guard he replaced, KCP. Fans keep dogging him instead of pulling for him like those mentioned above and some fool decides to "Boo" him because of what he may've read on one of the blog sites, he very well may sign where he's appreciated. That young man has leadership written all over him and it's not the type Morris had; he should be given the chance to lead this team and play PG. I saw one play that convinces me that he can man the PG position for us; he was out on the break, but Jae Crowder was in front, running the lane...Bradley got the pass, didn't hesitate, or pull up, he passed the rock to Crowder to lay in off the glass. That's high I.Q., selflessness, team first basketball, that inspires chemistry and other high I.Q. players would/will follow. I'm not dreaming and thanks to Oracle, there's a video record of this superior basketball player at work. Take a look.

[Oracle]

The Celtics have one starter – one – returning, Al Horford. Gone are Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Kelly Olynyk, Amir Johnson and Jonas Jerebko from last year’s rotation. I don’t think there’s much question that you’d trade that group of players for Kyrie Irving, Gordon Hayward, Marcus Morris and Jayson Tatum – the significant additions – but that doesn’t mean you’d trade them and expect instant gratification.

[Oracle]

[Oracle]

Maybe of the week or month, but history?

Hell we all love Ballin's posts, but unless you just woke up and forgot your meds, you're suffering from a severe case of hyperbole 

[Oracle]

The longer I consider the pros and cons of our Bradley / KCP substitution the more it resembles a Joe Dumars move about 16 year ago.  Or maybe I should say, “ the way I’m beginning to feel about this substitution” resembles how I felt the day Joe swapped Stackhouse for Rip.

Like KCP, Stack would frustrate me to no end with his wildly inconsistent play.  Dude would knock down 35 one night then 5 the next.   On top of that you could count on him dribbling the ball off his foot when we really needed a play.  
Consistent inconsistency leaves me wondering if a guy truly understands why he is good when he is El Fuego, and what changes when he becomes No Bueno.

Like Rip, Bradley’s numbers indicate he will be far more consistent on a nightly basis, and in just about every phase of his game.

There is much to be said for being reliable with a game to be counted on.

Lemon, it took years for RIP to become somewhat dependable(he had major faults). RIP was a total disaster early on, so much so that Carlisle rarely played him in the 4th. Even in his greatest years, he was a turnover waiting to happen any time he had the ball on a fast break.

What you appear to be loving is coaching! Coaching strives to keep a player out of situations they are known to fail in and finding where their sweet spot lies. Larry Brown found how best to use RIP, and that is the memory you have, Stack didn't have that opportunity, and they both had different but highly effective skills.

What is Bradley bad at? We don't know, but if we put him into those situations, everything you've taken for granted will collapse.

That's why, even though I think everything will be alright with Bradley, I don't believe a thing until we see who's the PG he plays with and how the coaching goes.

[cool breeze]

Guys, I think I can speak for most on the forum to say we are NOT casual fans.  But for me as a not casual fan, the last thing I am interested in seeing is Dre, Weggie and to a much lesser extent, Tobias, though I wanna see his usage increase and he become the ballhandler in some more P&R sets if SVG in his blathering wisdom sees fit to gather low-hanging fruit.

What I am interested in seeing is Kennard, Bradley, Boban, Bullock (cutting and screening) SJ (I haven't given up hope).  It's like getting back together with the old girlfriend, it's just never quite the same, even if you both want it to be.  I see Dre and Weggie as old girlfriends who cheated/slacked/refused to put out and are now back with a song and a smile.  

Mostly no thanks!  If they play above replacement level, then I will take them back with open arms, and try to forget, but otherwise, it is "meh,"  I'm from Missouri and I'm not really too excited about being shown, because I have lost faith in you.

Is losing faith from a fan's perspective analagous to losing chemistry with teamates and then trying to re-manufacture it, trying to rejigger a silk purse into a sow's ear.  That didn't work last year and we have the Meat and Potatoes guy, Mr. SVG mostly to thank for that, with an assist from Dre and Weggie.

I feel that way toward Andre and Weggie and maybe it ain't right, but that's how I feel.  Don't pour gravy on that stuffing;  I don't want none.

I wanna believe the deviated septum allergies and 20 pounds was the culprit in Andre's underwhelming effort, but the realist in me knows it was not.  He has no fire in his belly, he is still pining publicly for Weggie and SVG's "2 play" offense:  P&R and Fire at Will!  Maybe that is easiest for him to master, so there is that.

I wanna believe that it was the knee tendinitis that caused the ball to stick to Weggie's hand and made him refuse to pass, and yes that can explain why he could not defend, or maybe it's the conditioning and asthma issues and then there is the quit on the team issue which OKC also alluded to as he was on the way out of the door there.  All of those issues are like a wart, bad breath and runny nose in that girl who want's to get back in.  No Thank You!

I could be wrong.  I know I'm in the minority, but that never bothered me before.   I like Bullock's game if he can stay healthy.  I love Kennard's game if it translates to the Pros, which I am pretty sure it will.  I love Bradley's grit and grind and overall spirit to fight and win...spirit I don't see in Dre and Weggie, nor never hear articulated.  I love Boban, period, a grossly underutilized resource.  I like Moreland from what I've seen and wanna see a lot more of his long, bouncy, spirited, fighting, perimeter defending and rim protecting self.

Do they have warts?  Bad Breath?   Runny nose?  Most likely, but since I haven't seen them parade those failings up and down the court while we are in a race to the playoffs, I would much rather cheer for them than the old girl.  There is a saying, better the devil you know, than the one you don't know.  I tend to disagree with that point of emphasis.  Does this mean I am more optimistic in the new devil, or pessimistic about the old devil?

Time will tell.  I'd like to eat my stuffing with gravy on it.  I'd like some meat too, and that is SVG.  He is the Turkey, literally and figuratively.  No telling what he will do, which old warts he will flash at us and which new ones he will blather about.

BallinD this is by far the best post in the history of this forum. Nothing comes close. Somebody should pin it to SVG's office door. What in hell is being cooked up in there?

SVG needs a dose of reality. Is he talking to Tom Gores saying these Piston fans are complete fools? They will accept anything we decide to show them. Why can't he admit his big mistakes and remove the cancer? There are a lot of Piston or former Piston fans who feel the same way as a lot of us who do express our disappointment with the owner and his management team but especially his two franchise players, AD and RJ. I am still tying to get over how SVG and Tom decided that those two clowns would be the team leaders last season. Leadership for AD meant that he needed to add some new dance steps to his circle dancing routine. Let's all slap hands and then take a nap. Tom Gores will keep fan interest for those who attend with the usher who dances and the half time juggling act.

Instead of facing the facts that team chemistry will never improve with AD and RJ doing anything but coming off the bench for brief moments, Piston strategy team has instead planted a story to the right about how Detroit will match up with Washington this season. The writer decided that the weak position would be possibly Wall against Jackson and then Johnson against Porter. But of course AD will get the best of Gortat. How could anyone question that analysis unless you never watched the two teams play against each other in the last two seasons. There has never been a time when AD could look better than a horses ass playing against Gortat. Gortat has figured out that AD doesn't have a clue as to how to actually play the game of basketball. He got beat on offense and defense all the time whenever Gortat was on the floor with AD last season. And AD was actually trying hard against the Wizards and was so embarrassed that he didn't pull his usual slacking at the start of the game and the start of the 3rd quarter as he did against many other teams last year. And neither Jackson, Smith or KCP could guard either Wall or Beal. The only chance Detroit has if Jackson and Drummond play against Washington will be if Wall, Beal and Gortat all come down with the flu or if AD and RJ take the night off.

The Pistons can't trade Jackson and Tom Gores nixed trade opportunities involving AD. We have to feel for the rest of the players who fill out the roster and hope that they stage a revolt. AD needs RJ. RJ needs AD. The rest of the roster players are just cannon fodder. Who needs them?

WTF and dX it would be exciting if we somehow got a new owner, GM and coaching staff. If only some of the Bad Boys could buy this team and send the bad apples packing. If only we could watch this team minus RJ and AD and feature the young players with Avery Bradley, I think most Piston fans would be really happy. Some of us will still be turned off even if the Pistons get the 8th spot in the playoffs again fi RJ and AD are in the Piston starting lineup. RJ has serious health issues that do not involve his knee. He was out of breath after two trips down and back last season in every game he played. AD is just not a smart basketball player. He is way down in the basketball IQ rankings for NBA players. AD is an offensive rebounder specialist who makes the money of a superstar. Bring back Josh Smith. I would rather watch him any day of the week.

[WTF]

I can live with falling completely to the bottom and I can certainly live through a smart rebuilding process if I know the people that are in charge are compentent. Why not bring in those with that pedigree, and DNA that deleivered us 5 NBA Final visits and Championship
3 times. We're talking almost a combines 20 years of a winning tradition.

Honestly I say get rid of everyone except Kennard and Ellensen (explain later) I honestly think we could net at least 2 first round picks maybe 3 in just clearing house.

Zeke, Hill, Sheed, Laim, Big Ben, CB, and Hunter, this would be a wonderful starting point to get them all here and involved in some way to kick start a rebuild. Forget losing initially this alone would bring back excitement and hope. Losing won't be that painful not if we're seeing progress.

I would rather have a team full of unknowns if we had a connection to our past tradition passing the knowledge and wisdom forward to a group of unknowns vetted by some Pistons greats. This is why I would keep both Kennard and Ellensen not saying either would be stars but I see them fitting the tradition and having the potential for carrying that DNA.

[lemonpen]

The longer I consider the pros and cons of our Bradley / KCP substitution the more it resembles a Joe Dumars move about 16 year ago. Or maybe I should say, “ the way I’m beginning to feel about this substitution” resembles how I felt the day Joe swapped Stackhouse for Rip.

Like KCP, Stack would frustrate me to no end with his wildly inconsistent play. Dude would knock down 35 one night then 5 the next. On top of that you could count on him dribbling the ball off his foot when we really needed a play.
Consistent inconsistency leaves me wondering if a guy truly understands why he is good when he is El Fuego, and what changes when he becomes No Bueno.

Like Rip, Bradley’s numbers indicate he will be far more consistent on a nightly basis, and in just about every phase of his game.

There is much to be said for being reliable with a game to be counted on.

[Oracle]

I feel most of you on a number of things like developing players, coaching, ownership and various players. I'm at the point where I would rather just start completely over rather than watch this spinning of  potential progress by all involved especially the media spinning of this.   Reading beyond the local media, Pistons Powered and so on I can say that many sports media outlets don't paint the same picture.   

Ownership: With a new beginning back in the city playing at a brand new arena, why drag the bullshit from Auburn Hills with you?  Gore need to clean house by firing SVG and everyone he dragged with him from assistant coaches, Bower and players.   This also needs to be cleared of whatever remnants leftover from Joe's running of the team.

Tradition: 1989, 1990, 2004, and all things connected should be reflected in this new beginning.  If there was ever a time to call Zeke, Bill, Chauncey and others it is now.  That mural of Zeke on LCA speaks volumes about the tradition of this team.  Lets imagine for a moment, imagine Isiah Thomas as President of this team, Chauncey as General Manager, and Bill Laimbeer as Head Coach.   Let's imagine Ben Wallace,  Lindsey Hunter, Grant Hill, Rasheed Wallace and John Salley as his assistant.

The local media is doing the same thing you see on this board... making the best of a situation who's outcome is a complete unknown.

Honestly, with the loss of both KCP & Morris, of which Morris turns out to be the biggest loss since Bradly should make up for KCP, the identity of this team is somewhat shattered.

We've lost 2 of the members of one of the best starting 5's in a tough league when Reggie was healthy. That year the east was better than the west, that Piston team would have been a much higher seed if they had been in the west.

So here we are with a flawed Reggie, a Drummond, who's performance should be a known quantity, but I know that I'm wondering wtf he's going to give.

Tobias Harris, who almost everybody likes, but is plain vanilla as a player, Bradley who has good skills when he was on a good team with great coaching and support, but was never officially recognized in anything and is small for his position.

And beyond that... CRICKETS!!! We're talking about a rookie who's arms are too short to... oh well, fill in the blank  , but he damn sure looked good in summer league. However, he sure didn't look as good as Stanley Johnson or KCP did in summer league.

And who can name the scrubs beyond that, or better who wants to name them.

So yeah, I can understand the desire to just start over. The problem is start over with what? The dudes I just outlined here?

If we start over, the only way I see it happening is that we give up on both Reggie & Drummond, who in some combination can get us a #1 pick!

We keep the youngsters because they're cheap, but move Bradley ASAP because there's no future with a 6'2 SG. BTW, Boston had plenty of choices to choose from, but they specifically chose to get rid of Bradley, Marcus Smart was another choice, but they chose to get rid of their two smallest players, everybody knows it's not the way to go if you want to win in this league. Bradley was a nice fallback when KCP dumped us, but beyond this year he's a loser.

I hope you know that starting over means we'll be losing a lot of games, but if we can get a #1 pick moving bodies and another high pick from being horrible, that certainly would cushion the blow for me.

Here's the choice: Make the playoffs in a meaningless east contest, or prepare for building a real team, under better management, to compete for the future with highly rated talent.

[WTF]

I feel most of you on a number of things like developing players, coaching, ownership and various players. I'm at the point where I would rather just start completely over rather than watch this spinning of  potential progress by all involved especially the media spinning of this.   Reading beyond the local media, Pistons Powered and so on I can say that many sports media outlets don't paint the same picture.   

Ownership: With a new beginning back in the city playing at a brand new arena, why drag the bullshit from Auburn Hills with you?  Gore need to clean house by firing SVG and everyone he dragged with him from assistant coaches, Bower and players.   This also needs to be cleared of whatever remnants leftover from Joe's running of the team.

Tradition: 1989, 1990, 2004, and all things connected should be reflected in this new beginning.  If there was ever a time to call Zeke, Bill, Chauncey and others it is now.  That mural of Zeke on LCA speaks volumes about the tradition of this team.  Lets imagine for a moment, imagine Isiah Thomas as President of this team, Chauncey as General Manager, and Bill Laimbeer as Head Coach.   Let's imagine Ben Wallace,  Lindsey Hunter, Grant Hill, Rasheed Wallace and John Salley as his assistant.

[deusXango]

Let's not get too low on this team, there's talent here, but if you're expecting a contender, no, that's not realistic. I can still enjoy a season where there is progress and youngsters get developed... Hell, I'd love that.
Oracle, we're on the same page, but I get the feeling we see different players as being part of being worthy of development; that's okay, we've got a dialogue going and hope for the future.

DX, you have the exact opposite problem, don't get too high! You conjure up way too much for guys you've NEVER play ball in a Pistons uniform... STOP IT  (had to throw that back at ya).
Touché. You a funny man Seriously though, you're right, I've NEVER seen them play and would very much love to see what we've got, instead of hearing this player and that player ain't squat, from the lips of the very person who signed them. How will we know who can make a valuable contribution without allowing them to contribute? If we don't, it's the same old ego show.

However, I wish Bradley could play PG, but if he did, you'd likely be the first one to run his arse out of town... he ain't a PG, neither is Kennard, stop this dreaming.
What is a PG in todays NBA and what makes RJ so much better than Bradley? (I singled out RJ because the consensus is he's the best PG on the Pistons) Just as Bradley is better than KCP (by consensus), I believe he's a better leader than RJ, and certainly a better role model/leader for a defensive oriented team. Remember we're in the developmental stage. I believe I stated Kennard was, hopefully, our starting SG, unless SVG and his cast of clowns decides he's a replacement for Harris or Johnson. Bradley PG and Kennard SG.

Look, the east is weak, we're going to make the playoffs, but if we fail to develop the youngsters, it won't last long.
Totally agree brother!

Stones hit on our only hope Obi Wan Kenobi, trade bodies for #1 picks!!! Pull a Danny Ainge for once, we certainly can't get that pick staying in the middle. heaven knows they'll likely eff that up too, but it's worth the chance.
Stones put me in the floor with his wild prediction for a hopefull trade...his "problem" of holding too high expectation is worse than mine. True Reggie should go and either Leuer or Boban as well, but none of those players will get us a decent 1st round pick.

[Oracle]

Let's not get too low on this team, there's talent here, but if you're expecting a contender, no, that's not realistic. I can still enjoy a season where there is progress and youngsters get developed... Hell, I'd love that.

DX, you have the exact opposite problem, don't get too high! You conjure up way too much for guys you've NEVER play ball in a Pistons uniform... STOP IT  (had to throw that back at ya).

However, I wish Bradley could play PG, but if he did, you'd likely be the first one to run his arse out of town... he ain't a PG, neither is Kennard, stop this dreaming.

Look, the east is weak, we're going to make the playoffs, but if we fail to develop the youngsters, it won't last long.

Stones hit on our only hope Obi Wan Kenobi, trade bodies for #1 picks!!! Pull a Danny Ainge for once, we certainly can't get that pick staying in the middle. heaven knows they'll likely eff that up too, but it's worth the chance.

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