Trade

[WTF]

I mention a trade scenario of Rose and Love for Reggie and Andre.

Why would this be intriguing to the Cavs well the Cavs have Thompson and an Andre and Thompson front court doesn't sound bad even after Lebron leaves and they're really not that into love unless he becomes the focus of the offense after Lebron leaves.   Kyrie is gone, Lebron is leaving only make sense that Love is gone as well.   

Why take Reggie, certainly the contracts don't match with Rose but perhaps with some dangling of other stuff it can happen anything possible right. Maybe a 3rd team could get involved.

Why should we want either Rose or Love? my first answer to that is that both are better fits for our team.  Certainly Rose would get the ball to other players and is more of a leader than Reggie could ever be.  Whatever we might think of Rose he survived 64 games while averaging 19pts a game.  Love needs to be out of Cleveland love might even be on the down side of his career but even so he's fit perfectly into SVG offense.  He's certainly an outside threat and enough of an inside threat to keep most defenses slightly off balance.   

Okay before everyone say it neither Rose or Love are long term solutions but the same has been said about both Reggie and Andre.  However what having Rose and Love on our roster this season is assure us that at least the possibility of second round exit oppose to not making a the playoffs at all.  The if is whether both Love and Rose can stay healthy for a season.  

Why this needs to happen?  Both Reggie and Andre need to be brought down a couple of notches for their own good if nothing else.  Reggie is steal under the impression that he's just as good as some of the other PG and he's not.  He's not Westbrook, he's not Walls, he's not Curry, sadly he's not even an Ish when its all said and done.  Andre needs to go to the Cavs so he can actually see how a Franchise player looks, function and act.  You can rest assure that at no time without or with Lebron would they consider Andre Franchise.   

In any case I still say Reggie will be traded before the season starts.  I don't know where but he'll be gone.

[deusXango]

Some strong arguments have been made regarding who's the best players on the Pistons and at the end of the day, what's the value of being the best. There's been some campaigning for certain players, like popularity will win games, but compatible fit for a starting unit is never really, honestly, discussed. Why?

Stan Van Gundy as the head of the Pistons basketball concern has been a middling failure on all levels, but he gets what amounts to a free pass on shortcoming after shortcoming. On a lot of levels, he's a clone of Joe Dumars, during his days of decline. He's viewed as a great coach, but that would have to be based on a distant past...what have you done for me/us lately? He's sucked as a front office administrator, by fixing sh!t that wasn't broken, as a coach, that's responsible for putting together a coaching staff, and allowing pride & ego to make some fu@ked up decisions in offensive/defensive strategies, by playing the wrong players out of position and out of place. I place Drummonds lackadaisical play, and Reggie's selfish, ball hogging play directly on SVG, not Gores!

What Tom Gores has done is permit the inmates to run the asylum (in undeveloped, wet behind the ears, jackass shouldn't be the face of the franchise), and allowed SVG to spend his money like a drunken sailor (apologies to the Navy men). If you're going to be bosom buddies with a player, let that player be a proven superstar, after all you are a billionaire owner and should be concerned with the company you keep. It's your money, but did you earn this money by allowing your trusted underlings to operate without fiscal accountability? With what's being presented to the Pistons fans, why don't you call the executive shots and coach the damn team? It's yours and couldn't be more fu@ked up if you did!

I keep Reggie in my sights because he's a b!tch style player, IMHO, and is way overrated by the local media and that 2015-16 season has poisoned the reasoning faculties of fans; that's what happens when you're passionate about the home team and stand to close to the bullsh!t. No one notices that he should've averaged 20+ points, as much as he ball hogs, but forgets that he ain't he first PG that we've had that could successfully run the P & R with Drummond. Hell, as recently as the beginning of last year, Ish ran it as well as getting others involved in the offence; Drummond had began to become more "engaged" and the 20/20 games (with some stellar defense) began to consistently pile up...that's when Reggie decided to hobble his selfish ass back on the floor and totally disrupt the chemistry the team had began to develop, along with a winning record. I won't get behind a player that puts personal glory ahead of his health and the teams chances of competing. What do we really think the players only meeting was about? Why did he need assurances from SVG that he wouldn't be traded when the Rubio trade was leaked? Isn't this a business where players are traded everyday?

[Oracle]

Today we get breaking news that Reggie is ramping up his training work and will be ready for training camp!

Wait... What???

This smells like an organization that accidentally spilled the beans about Reggie and is in fast recovery mode to calm the natives down!

In the fine print, they still say he won't be capable of 2 a days, so is this all smoke and mirrors or is he really better?

[Oracle]

@Ballin - Totally agree, when the Lions win I'm in a good mood for at least a week, come Sunday??? Well, Lions fans know how that goes 

@Stones - Kind of agree with Wise, the timing has to be right, and it isn't right now. Gasol would be an upgrade, but we have to see where we are first. I also agree with DX, Memphis wouldn't touch this with a 10 foot pole!

[WTF]

Trade Drummond for Marc Gasol straight up?

Why or why not?

Age?
Athleticism?
Gasol has reached his ceiling and Drummond hasn't.
The Pistons would come out on the short end of this trade.
Gasol would be on an island all by himself in Detroit...who'd be the forwards playing along side him?
Memphis wouldn't do it, period!
Way too much is made of Drummonds FT's, or lack of.  

Age really doesn't matter when you compare experience over ignorance Gasol would make more sense. 
Athleticism really doesn't matter if you don't know what to do with Gasol wouldn't be the first center we had that lack athleticism remember Laimbeer?
Ceiling one can only hope Andre has the potential to be better IMO he's stuck on stupid and has already peaked.
Short end I don't think so, we can't expect more or even equal value with every trade.  Equal value would be if we get a Andre for an Andre so in that case we might as well keep him. From a fit perspective and experience Gasol a better fit.
Island hell Andre on that same Island and he's not a better defender than Gasol now.
Memphis why would they do this trade or any other team for that matter.  I could imagine a lot reasons a team might what I know is that Memphis or other teams wouldn't be tagging his ass as franchise and trying to build around him.  SVG was dumb enough to do so and now he can't seem to get that foot out of mouth and ass. 
Drummond believe me if FT shooting was our biggest concern with Andre I doubt if any of us would really care do remember Big Ben?  So if Andre was balling out like Big Ben that's one thing.  It's all the other **** why he's not valued.

[WTF]

Trade Drummond for Marc Gasol straight up?

Why or why not?

I would trade Andre for just about anything I sincerely mean this but would definitely be based on timing, where we're at as a team when do decide to pull that trigger to trade him.

If we were to do it as of today then I would want a little more than a straight up trade for Marc Gasol.  I would be all for if this was a deadline trade that would decide us being a top 4 seed come playoff time and it's clear we can do this without Andre services.  

I'm simply not sold on Andre hell I'm for a Rose-Love trade for Reggie and Andre right now

[deusXango]

Trade Drummond for Marc Gasol straight up?

Why or why not?

Age?
Athleticism?
Gasol has reached his ceiling and Drummond hasn't.
The Pistons would come out on the short end of this trade.
Gasol would be on an island all by himself in Detroit...who'd be the forwards playing along side him?
Memphis wouldn't do it, period!
Way too much is made of Drummonds FT's, or lack of.

[Go Stones!]

Trade Drummond for Marc Gasol straight up?

Why or why not?

[BallinD]

Go Lions, Go Golliday, Go Stafford. One more weapon and not a moment too soon.

Oracle, I'm in a good mood so I will leave you to your delusions. LOL. No amount of statistics nor logic will sway you who refuses to see, but I am confident, you will come around to reason, you always do, though you try to sneak a delusion in here and there.

[WTF]

And I guess that's why they pay him the big bucks!!!

Slow start... as usual, but that 4th quarter is where a QB earns his pay! Golden Tate is still the class of the receivers, but Stafford now has learned the value of spreading the wealth around.

Truth be told, after that interception in the 1st and being down 10 zip, I was worried, and with the Lions, I worry EASILY 

Where's the damn run game? I'm tire of him and the receivers having to shoulder all the work.  Glad we won but damn we need a run attack to compliment him.

[Oracle]

And I guess that's why they pay him the big bucks!!!

Slow start... as usual, but that 4th quarter is where a QB earns his pay! Golden Tate is still the class of the receivers, but Stafford now has learned the value of spreading the wealth around.

Truth be told, after that interception in the 1st and being down 10 zip, I was worried, and with the Lions, I worry EASILY 

[WTF]

Reggie and Andre are the most talented players on the team but their flaws are so bad that it effects the play of others that they remain stagnant or simply decline.  

Lets forget the numbers because they mean very little and come at a great sacrifice in the case of Reggie and to some extent Andre as well.  I use to post about how Moose numbers where meaningless because at the end of the day the team still had an L.  Can we honestly say that under the same condition that any of our past winning coaches would be starting either? No they would not!!!!

Being the most talented means little, we all witness it when Reggie was down and Ish started.  Reggie is more talented but Ish was more effective at running the team.  Sure we can count on Andre get 18 boards and a dunk here and there but what we can't count on is him defending the post which we all know Boban is better at or him making his FT which Boban is also better at.  My guess is if Boban was given the minutes Andre gets he'll be more effective.  Saying they're the best really isn't saying to much. Boban could be our Laim before Andre could be our Big Ben

When I look at Harris I see him somewhere in between being Tay and Josh.  I don't think he'll be a superstar but because of his smarts he should be used a lot more than he has in the offense.  I think Harris games helps more than it hurts us kinda in the same manner of Tay in 2004.  His game kinda resembles minus the 3pt shooting of Josh in fact there numbers were very similar prior to getting here.  Hell they kinda look alike 

Best players or not we're not going anywhere with Reggie and Andre leading the team. The best they can offer is a 1st round exit from the playoffs and I for one want better.  I'm ready for next level and not the same rollercoaster ride this team will offer up with Reggie and Andre leading the way.

[Oracle]

It's call not have a good floor general because your PG suppose to put his other team mates in the best position to score.  It would be SVG fault because he is responsible for making sure that he has the right PG in place, but it's also Reggie faults because he wants to shoot 20 plus times a game.  EXACTLY!

Example 1: Zeke elevated the game of everyone of his fellow players not only by leading by example but having his team engaged.  Most of his team mates where role players who games elevated because they played with him. 

Example 2: Chauncey didn't necessarily elevate his team mates but acted more as a manager of talent.

But at the end of the day it all rest on a coaches use of players so in the case of SVG he misuses players like Harris much in the way he misused KCP. Both players are scorers and scores are like free spirits that you cannot contain.  Scorers have the ball in their hands more often than a teams PG see Kobe, MJ, Melo, Lebron and so on.  Not saying either compare to these stars I mention but this is how you handle and use scores.   

I probably wouldn't have drafted KCP but had I did he not Andre would have been the face of the franchise.  I would have been building around him oppose to Andre.  SVG can probably save the season and his job if he turns the offense over to both Harris and Bradley and not have this obsession with Reggie and Andre.  You had a thought about Trey Burke that I find interesting. IMO, we could get him from Washington. I wouldn't have drafted him, I don't think the timing was right, but with our current situation, I think he would instantly be the best floor general on this team. I'd bring him in as a backup and see if he could take the starting gig!

Would I be shocked if Bradley is force to play along side Reggie and his game decline? No I wouldn't.  You would thought that when we trade for Harris that every effort to make him the focus of the offense would have been made.  Cleveland seems desperate because they're unsure of Thomas status but I would take the brokedown Rose and Love in exchange for Reggie and Andre. Harris is the focus of the 2nd unit offense, that's why his numbers look so good against lesser players. His greatest strength is that he won't take shots he's uncomfortable with(which is also his greatest weakness) and he generally takes what the defense gives him. He can't create shots, he's not very athletic and not very fast, but he's very smart.

I wish we could move Reggie & Dre for Love & Rose! I'd start Love and have Rose come off the bench if we had a starting PG, but on this team, he'd probably be the starter. But sadly, Reggie & Dre's stock is so low, they'd likely laugh at us!

[Oracle]

It amazes me that some people can watch games and basically see nothing, and blame the wrong players for the wrong things consistently. Oracle, Oracle, Oracle, tossing insults with foot firmly in your mouth. LOL, I'm going to have to add can't read to that list

JR Smith was considered one of the worst players in the league! Took a lot of bad shots from deep and rarely connected at a rate anybody could stand.

He goes to Cleveland and becomes one of their most valuable 3 point shooters and shoots a nice percentage... WHY?

He's not alone, other scrubs got to Cleveland, GS and other good teams and people think they're great there, but they sucked elsewhere.  There is that, but it could also be complementary teamates who by their presence get you better shots(Lebron/Kyrie anybody??) It could be scheme (due to coaching and personell).  It could be maturation in your game?  (the idea of internal improvement), or it could be usage (some players get better when they have more minutes and touches. No, you should have read further before commenting, what you missed is that the coaching comes from the COACH or by extension, coaching on the floor, and that means either a single player or group of players that ENFORCE some rule set. Yup, watching but never seeing is firmly in force!

(So It's not) It's all coaching, either from the bench or on the floor... Good teams generate good shots, it's that simple! Good shots are needed for role players, it's the only way they can contribute their best! As soon as a player gets on a team that won't generate those clean good shots, they're effectiveness drops. Sometimes it drops when they go to a better team too. Magic thinking... it's not magic, it's planned, but go ahead and dream.

Larry Brown would use the entire 24 second clock searching for the best shot the team could generate! That's how important getting that shot is! Quality of shot isn't a single player activity, it's a team activity. Only superstars create their own shot with regularity, and we don't have any of those guys.  Not true. Many NBA players can create their own shots with regularity, players who are not stars or even superstars (Lou Williams, Shawn Livingston, Jamal Crawford, Demar Derozen, Tobias Harris, Will Bynum, Beno Udrih, Avery Bradley, Mo Williams, Jeremy Linn, Swaggy P, Goran Dragic, and so it goes.  It is the NBA.  What you call scrubs are the elite of the elite and they show their talent, more often than not. I only named non-stars, who yet and still can get their shot off on anybody, and this is just a few of the many. Total crap! Your list contains players that can sometimes do that and a bunch of guys that can't spell shot creation... pass over whatever the hell you're smoking because it's some powerful stuff.

So unless SVG does something different, i.e. like when Ish ran the team and they generated a ton of clean good looks by moving the ball and Ish collapsing the defense, the players will still struggle. BTW, Ish is the BEST player on this team to generate clean shots, that's all he does, and only shoots as a last resort.  I agree that Ish proved to be a premium shot generator for others (particularly Tobias). Partially right, his biggest target was KCP followed by Harris and Drummond and it was exclusively KCP when he needed a big shot or needed a 3 pointer.

Beyond a your doubt, Reggie and Drummond are our BEST players, warts and all, the drop off after that is quite large, as everybody else is a role player, although Kennard & Ellenson have the potential to be better, but that could take years.  (We will have to agree to disagree on this one, particularly when all around play is considered and DEFENSE is in the equation as is making other players around you better.) Do you just flap your gums or can you back up anything you say? If those two aren't the most talented and BEST players, show me who is??? You got any numbers to back that up, or is this a bunch a Kentucky Windage? Get real!

BTW, Harris is NOT a prime time player... that's why he's here!

 
 He could be if SVG were not an idiot.  Our own Isiaah Lord Thomas said so and others in the know have echoed that sentiment.  He is high efficiency and low usage so if his usage goes up, it is quite possible his efficiency will to, up to a point.  

Oh Wait, Dre and Weggie are here, so what does that say about them??? Again, where's the proof? I provide facts on the ground and you cough up wishful thinking! Harris is here because they tried to make him the man and he couldn't cut the mustard. You don't want to put him in that position, he's a good role player, the kind you appear to fall in love with which leads to the mediocrity  we're suffering from right now... add Bradley to that list.

I'm not defending Dre & Reggie, they have major flaws which may or may not be correctable, but they're the ONLY two stars capable of making this team something rather than nothing!

If they can't deliver, this is a team searching for a Dre or Reggie, because none of the rest are difference makers, they are, and all the faux whining you want to do isn't going to change that.

[WTF]

It's call not have a good floor general because your PG suppose to put his other team mates in the best position to score.  It would be SVG fault because he is responsible for making sure that he has the right PG in place, but it's also Reggie faults because he wants to shoot 20 plus times a game.  

Example 1: Zeke elevated the game of everyone of his fellow players not only by leading by example but having his team engaged.  Most of his team mates where role players who games elevated because they played with him. 

Example 2: Chauncey didn't necessarily elevate his team mates but acted more as a manager of talent.

But at the end of the day it all rest on a coaches use of players so in the case of SVG he misuses players like Harris much in the way he misused KCP. Both players are scorers and scores are like free spirits that you cannot contain.  Scorers have the ball in their hands more often than a teams PG see Kobe, MJ, Melo, Lebron and so on.  Not saying either compare to these stars I mention but this is how you handle and use scores.   

I probably wouldn't have drafted KCP but had I did he not Andre would have been the face of the franchise.  I would have been building around him oppose to Andre.  SVG can probably save the season and his job if he turns the offense over to both Harris and Bradley and not have this obsession with Reggie and Andre.  

Would I be shocked if Bradley is force to play along side Reggie and his game decline? No I wouldn't.  You would thought that when we trade for Harris that every effort to make him the focus of the offense would have been made.  Cleveland seems desperate because they're unsure of Thomas status but I would take the brokedown Rose and Love in exchange for Reggie and Andre.

[BallinD]

It amazes me that some people can watch games and basically see nothing, and blame the wrong players for the wrong things consistently. Oracle, Oracle, Oracle, tossing insults with foot firmly in your mouth.

JR Smith was considered one of the worst players in the league! Took a lot of bad shots from deep and rarely connected at a rate anybody could stand.

He goes to Cleveland and becomes one of their most valuable 3 point shooters and shoots a nice percentage... WHY?

He's not alone, other scrubs got to Cleveland, GS and other good teams and people think they're great there, but they sucked elsewhere.  There is that, but it could also be complementary teamates who by their presence get you better shots(Lebron/Kyrie anybody??) It could be scheme (due to coaching and personell).  It could be maturation in your game?  (the idea of internal improvement), or it could be usage (some players get better when they have more minutes and touches.

(So It's not) It's all coaching, either from the bench or on the floor... Good teams generate good shots, it's that simple! Good shots are needed for role players, it's the only way they can contribute their best! As soon as a player gets on a team that won't generate those clean good shots, they're effectiveness drops. Sometimes it drops when they go to a better team too.

Larry Brown would use the entire 24 second clock searching for the best shot the team could generate! That's how important getting that shot is! Quality of shot isn't a single player activity, it's a team activity. Only superstars create their own shot with regularity, and we don't have any of those guys.  Not true. Many NBA players can create their own shots with regularity, players who are not stars or even superstars (Lou Williams, Shawn Livingston, Jamal Crawford, Demar Derozen, Tobias Harris, Will Bynum, Beno Udrih, Avery Bradley, Mo Williams, Jeremy Linn, Swaggy P, Goran Dragic, and so it goes.  It is the NBA.  What you call scrubs are the elite of the elite and they show their talent, more often than not. I only named non-stars, who yet and still can get their shot off on anybody, and this is just a few of the many.

So unless SVG does something different, i.e. like when Ish ran the team and they generated a ton of clean good looks by moving the ball and Ish collapsing the defense, the players will still struggle. BTW, Ish is the BEST player on this team to generate clean shots, that's all he does, and only shoots as a last resort.  I agree that Ish proved to be a premium shot generator for others (particularly Tobias).

Beyond a your doubt, Reggie and Drummond are our BEST players, warts and all, the drop off after that is quite large, as everybody else is a role player, although Kennard & Ellenson have the potential to be better, but that could take years.  (We will have to agree to disagree on this one, particularly when all around play is considered and DEFENSE is in the equation as is making other players around you better.)

BTW, Harris is NOT a prime time player... that's why he's here!

 
 He could be if SVG were not an idiot.  Our own Isiaah Lord Thomas said so and others in the know have echoed that sentiment.  He is high efficiency and low usage so if his usage goes up, it is quite possible his efficiency will to, up to a point.  

Oh Wait, Dre and Weggie are here, so what does that say about them???

[Oracle]

It amazes me that some people can watch games and basically see nothing, and blame the wrong players for the wrong things consistently.

JR Smith was considered one of the worst players in the league! Took a lot of bad shots from deep and rarely connected at a rate anybody could stand.

He goes to Cleveland and becomes one of their most valuable 3 point shooters and shoots a nice percentage... WHY?

He's not alone, other scrubs got to Cleveland, GS and other good teams and people think they're great there, but they sucked elsewhere.

It's all coaching, either from the bench or on the floor... Good teams generate good shots, it's that simple! Good shots are needed for role players, it's the only way they can contribute their best! As soon as a player gets on a team that won't generate those clean good shots, they're effectiveness drops.

Larry Brown would use the entire 24 second clock searching for the best shot the team could generate! That's how important getting that shot is! Quality of shot isn't a single player activity, it's a team activity. Only superstars create their own shot with regularity, and we don't have any of those guys.

So unless SVG does something different, i.e. like when Ish ran the team and they generated a ton of clean good looks by moving the ball and Ish collapsing the defense, the players will still struggle. BTW, Ish is the BEST player on this team to generate clean shots, that's all he does, and only shoots as a last resort.

Beyond a doubt, Reggie and Drummond are our BEST players, warts and all, the drop off after that is quite large, as everybody else is a role player, although Kennard & Ellenson have the potential to be better, but that could take years.

BTW, Harris is NOT a prime time player... that's why he's here!

[WTF]

I agree and disagree about your assertion "plays are just plays"as the advent of shooting, passing, switching and less hand checking, physicality and such has fundamentally changed the game and made plays run by GS, SA, Cle, Boston appear to be a notch above the 1-4 plays because of the need for passing as you mention. That is why Kennard, Bradley, Ellensen, Boban, SJ have the potential to impact this team disproportionately. They pass, see the value of the pass and the sum total is quite possibly a lot more "action" than the Dre-Weggie two-man game with a dose of Morris Iso/KCP fire-at-will thrown in. This to me is the opposite of high IQ BBall, which to me is peaking in the NBA, just not the physicality or gritty competitiveness of Bad Boys, or Going To Work days. 

While rule changes over time has impacted the way the games is being played it still only impact the style of play and not the plays itself.  Example: Flip Saunders didn't tweak his offense he tweaked his defense instead to offset a lot of the rule changes over time.  So Flip perfected his zone defense. 

Another example: Would be what LB did most of the current changes were already in place but he leaned heavily on the concept of playing man to man defense.  It gets no simple than just guard your man, SVG wants to do this but simply don't have the personnel to accomplish such if Andre was the man beast like Big Ben perhaps he could get away with it.  What was LB theme?  Simply play the right way and you'll win and that still holds true today.

Personally I'm still all for the tradition style of play, set your picks/watch for screens,  cut/slash, make you FT's, box out/etc.  This is all about fundamentals maybe it just me but I'll take fundamentals over physical ability more times than not. 

Now I partly agree with you because I would rather watch Kennard, Bradley, Ellenson and Boban starting as well. I'm not sold one bit on SJ because I don't think he's fundamentally equipped either.  He has crappy form on his shot,  I'm not sure it improved coming into his 3rd season in a nutshell I don't like players that simply try to get by on raw and physical talent.   Remember Rodman was raw with a ton of physical talent but he was a quick learner, to me SJ along with Reggie and Andre are far into their press clippings and hype as if they've arrived to greatness already.

[cool breeze]

Wise: I do think that 1 in four our could possibly work if we had Marc Gasol, B. Lopez, KAT or other versatile, high efficiency, highly-skillled centers, or an athletic monster like young D12 (Dre is not that, though he is a good rebounder).

But we don't live in a what if universe and Dre's post ups pull no one off their perimeter defense, the opposite is true. With no passing to speak of (the elephant in the room, never discussed) ISO and fire at will is the rule of the dark days we find ourselves in.

These are the days of switching players on the perimeter, four or five shooters/attackers/ball handlers and three-point shooting.  These are the days of motion offense and screening and cutting.  If we do not do these things, but embrace throw the ball in and then toss it out to the perimeter, who will make the exit pass?  When the ball comes into Dre, does it go back out?  He is not Gasol, KAT or Lopez, so is that why our shooters always tend to shoot worse here (less margin for success because the initial draw (pass to Andre) is less of a draw cause he is less of a finisher and passer back out to the shooter, among other reasons.  In addition, we seem to draw up plays to take the exact same shots we try to get out opponents to take and avoid the easiest shot (the corner three, among others).

And we recently learned Weggie is one of the worst high-usage pgs in the league in transition points (worse than a Dre postup) just as he is one of the worst defenders and one of the worst players period on the second game of back-to-backs, seems to be flying in the face of (SVG) scheme.  This is your point about our "Two Knuckleheads."

I agree and disagree about your assertion "plays are just plays"as the advent of shooting, passing, switching and less hand checking, physicality and such has fundamentally changed the game and made plays run by GS, SA, Cle, Boston appear to be a notch above the 1-4 plays because of the need for passing as you mention.  That is why Kennard, Bradley, Ellensen, Boban, SJ have the potential to impact this team disproportionately.  They pass, see the value of the pass and the sum total is quite possibly a lot more "action" than the Dre-Weggie two-man game with a dose of Morris Iso/KCP fire-at-will thrown in.  This to me is the opposite of high IQ BBall, which to me is peaking in the NBA, just not the physicality or gritty competitiveness of Bad Boys, or Going To Work days.  

Of course we could all get together with a big assist from Cool Breeze and outline the SVG offense (and defensive) deficiencies in an online book that maybe we could sell as a primer to the beat writers, owners and slappies.


It is addition by subtraction to get rid of Weggie and field a real pg, get a scheme that is more predicated on passing motion, getting all players involved (like during the Ish era) and playing with the high BBall IQ.

If only SVG and Tom Gores would take a course in Objectivism they would conclude that everything you said is correct. The path this team should take most likely will not be taken though. The owner wants AD to get his touches. They have a close relationship. That is what matters. One 7 foot player that I went though orientation with in college had a basketball scholarship like me and our last names started with the same letter. He was surrounded by pretty girls and acted like a real stud big shot. I was pretty shy at the time and being around him made me lose even more confidence than after I was dropped off on campus on my first day of college. This guy kept telling me that it is not what you know it is who you know. Maybe that is the way AD sees it. He won't have to make a change and become an elite defender and scrap the notion that he will rule the league with his offense. The coach knows all AD has to do is call the owner if the coach looks at him without a smile. I go back to the players only meeting where AD got upset. I have never heard of a head coach respond in the way SVG did after AD told the press how badly his teammates acted in the private players only meeting. Did the owner direct the head coach to make that type of response? I say no coach with any brains would ever do what SVG did unless that coach was working in the NBA and had a huge contract with the owner. I not only lost all respect for AD as his teammates must have (with the exception of RJ), but also SVG. Players have a right to have private meetings don't they? And I don't know of any coach who doesn't like it when their team is playing poorly when the players have it out. After that meeting the team was never the same. It sure wasn't the team meeting that ruined team chemistry. I still can't get past this moment in time in Piston history. It had never happened before I am sure. And the sick thing to me is that the same people are still working for the Pistons. SVG, AD and RJ are still here with SVG's staff of followers. Who is most at fault. One can say that AD is just a ignorant young goof off posing as the team leader and didn't know any better. That still doesn't justify his behavior but the bigger culprit has to be SVG himself. But the man most responsible has to be Tom Gores the owner if he did encourage SVG to snuff out the idea that the players only meetings are not productive and must end. SVG and Tom should go individually to each player that attended the meeting last season who still wear the Piston uniform and apologize to them. The owner can do whatever he wants to do though so don't be surprised if we see another repeat interference with SVG agreeing again to do the wrong thing.

You pointed out the details. The devil is in the details always and SVG and Tom Gores hates it when we point out flaws in their strategy relating to the RJ and AD love fest and the only reason why RJ is still in uniform is so he can feed AD and make him an All Star again. AD is the only alleged All Star who couldn't make the Olympic team other than Isiah Thomas and we all know the NBA's betrayal of Zeke had nothing to do with his basketball ability. The NBA front office hated the Pistons and followed the Jordan rules. Michael doesn't want Zeke on the team. OK. Jordan doesn't like guards playing tough man to man on him. OK Michael we will change the rules for you. Well it appears that Tom Gores has his own special rules when it comes to AD and SVG says OK Tom whatever Andre wants it OK with me.

If the Pistons do not make the change in their offense and do as you described and play the same style as last season, the team will implode again for sure. No sane coach would feature AD as the first option with the 4 out 1 in game. But Mr. Gores is not a basketball coach. All he knows is that his favorite player and friend is unhappy if he is not the featured star. Maybe if AD had not been added to the All Star roster as an additional player, maybe he would be more team orientated and convert to a defensive player. One of the homer Piston writers made a statement saying that the Bucks over achieved last season so expect that team to crash land this year. Thon Maker has only been playing basketball for a few years and I suspect he will run circles around AD this season. He defends, blocks shots and plays with extreme high energy. Maker also has a solid outside game too. He can drive it or hit the three. And that was last season. Maker is a work dog who is always practicing on his weaknesses unlike AD. Greg Monroe, who comes off the bench always beats the hell out of AD in every matchup unless he is injured. Thon and Greg will be licking their chops when RJ throws the ball down to AD in the paint. I will look forward to that matchup this year. I suspect AD will come down with the flue whenever the Pistons play the Bucks. The Bucks are just one of many Eastern conference teams where the 4 out 1 in won't work if AD is in the starting lineup or coming off the bench. I can't wait for SVG to throw his arms up and turn around and have a melt down in front of his bench players.

[BallinD]

Wise: I do think that 1 in four our could possibly work if we had Marc Gasol, B. Lopez, KAT or other versatile, high efficiency, highly-skillled centers, or an athletic monster like young D12 (Dre is not that, though he is a good rebounder).

But we don't live in a what if universe and Dre's post ups pull no one off their perimeter defense, the opposite is true. With no passing to speak of (the elephant in the room, never discussed) ISO and fire at will is the rule of the dark days we find ourselves in.

These are the days of switching players on the perimeter, four or five shooters/attackers/ball handlers and three-point shooting. These are the days of motion offense and screening and cutting. If we do not do these things, but embrace throw the ball in and then toss it out to the perimeter, who will make the exit pass? When the ball comes into Dre, does it go back out? He is not Gasol, KAT or Lopez, so is that why our shooters always tend to shoot worse here (less margin for success because the initial draw (pass to Andre) is less of a draw cause he is less of a finisher and passer back out to the shooter, among other reasons. In addition, we seem to draw up plays to take the exact same shots we try to get out opponents to take and avoid the easiest shot (the corner three, among others).

And we recently learned Weggie is one of the worst high-usage pgs in the league in transition points (worse than a Dre postup) just as he is one of the worst defenders and one of the worst players period on the second game of back-to-backs, seems to be flying in the face of (SVG) scheme. This is your point about our "Two Knuckleheads."

I agree and disagree about your assertion "plays are just plays"as the advent of shooting, passing, switching and less hand checking, physicality and such has fundamentally changed the game and made plays run by GS, SA, Cle, Boston appear to be a notch above the 1-4 plays because of the need for passing as you mention. That is why Kennard, Bradley, Ellensen, Boban, SJ have the potential to impact this team disproportionately. They pass, see the value of the pass and the sum total is quite possibly a lot more "action" than the Dre-Weggie two-man game with a dose of Morris Iso/KCP fire-at-will thrown in. This to me is the opposite of high IQ BBall, which to me is peaking in the NBA, just not the physicality or gritty competitiveness of Bad Boys, or Going To Work days.

Of course we could all get together with a big assist from Cool Breeze and outline the SVG offense (and defensive) deficiencies in an online book that maybe we could sell as a primer to the beat writers, owners and slappies.


It is addition by subtraction to get rid of Weggie and field a real pg, get a scheme that is more predicated on passing motion, getting all players involved (like during the Ish era) and playing with the high BBall IQ.

[WTF]

I wanna be optimistic, but these are the story lines shaping up for the season judging from the pundits and team spokesmen. These narratives have been trotted out for public consumption, along with how nice is the locker room and aren't those great sight lines in the arena to see Andre get dunked on and Weggie brick a layup, and SVG perform his histrionics along the sideline when he realizes his schemes don't work, he shoulda called a real play, his shooters are shooting less than their league average cause 1 in 4 out don't work no more in the modern NBA.

I don't think it's the concept of the 1 in 4 out and that it couldn't/can't/won't work in todays NBA.   The issue here is with personnel and nothing more lets forget that you need shooters on the wing which we may or may not have.  The 2 things/players that makes 1 in and 4 out is a intelligent PG and above average passer at the center position.  We have 2 knuckleheads instead.

I'm a strong believer that in any sport that perfect execution of a play is just that perfectly executed.   Honestly there are no new plays, or new offenses the modern NBA isn't really modern at all unless lack of fundamentals and lack of high bb IQ is the new norm.

[BallinD]

Right now it is a guessing game with these Pistons; will they play like a team resembling "Going to Work," or dare I say Bad Boys, which is the height of the shebangabang of Deeeeetroit Basketball, or will they play like the slugs we have come to despair over the last years, going on 10 years.

Somewhere in between, slanting toward the bottom, but decidedly middling, most likely.

Weggie is already set up as the scapegoat/qualifier this season and we haven't even begun to play ball yet. Ooohhh, he can't practice twice-a-day. Uhh Oh!

Andre is the mystery man (will he will or will he won't) and he hasn't missed one free throw yet or whiffed on one little block attempt on a point guard layup, nor has he stated he will do better on either.

Will Tobias, arguably the best player and leading and most efficient scorer, get his due and have the usage (plays called for him) to actually make a difference on the team, despite the idiocy of his delusional head coach, who really prefers to let him come off the bench while Dre gets unsuccessful post ups galore and Weggie gets unsuccessful forways into the lane and around the perimeter as he pounds the air out of the ball and his teamates stand in the corner or on the wing for their turn at Iso/fire away.

"Will Kennard bail out the middling coach and meekly take the commute to GR and absolve SVG of any need to play the rook?

Will dancing bears (Andre) perform the requisite circus tricks to lure fans into LCA, even in losing efforts.

Are the "Alpha Males" on the team really Weggie and Dre (butt buddies, two worst defenders and attitudinal misfits) with a shout out to Bradley as "also ran" and Tobias as a distant fourth?

I wanna be optimistic, but these are the story lines shaping up for the season judging from the pundits and team spokesmen. These narratives have been trotted out for public consumption, along with how nice is the locker room and aren't those great sight lines in the arena to see Andre get dunked on and Weggie brick a layup, and SVG perform his histrionics along the sideline when he realizes his schemes don't work, he shoulda called a real play, his shooters are shooting less than their league average cause 1 in 4 out don't work no more in the modern NBA.

[deusXango]

Damn Don, you hit on the most obvious team chemistry killer that has been staring us all in the face; an obviously lazy, non-physical worker, who's trying to preach the benefits of hard work and playing with force and energy to a group of young men that the very environment in which they compete demands they do that. When poor basketball decisions are consistently made, who wants to listen to the fat man? I mean the same guy who can't tell the difference between a barbeque dinner (served at lunch) from a healthy salad, is the same guy that's setting head scratching rotations and ignoring the fact that defense isn't the reason they're loosing, but it's the lame ass offense. Because a player is a rookie doesn't mean they don't look at these things, and further, doesn't mean they're not privy to superior coaching ideas!! They say a dead fish stinks from the head down. We've got a coach who can't run, jump, do a cross-over dribble, or shot free throws for a higher percentage than Drummond.  Amusing isn't it?

Lemonpen, I understand what you meant by "reference" when using Durant for comparison; KCP scores 2 points more than Bradley, but his time on the floor is consistently greater than Bradley's. Not only does the chart show Bradley taking more shots that he can make, but shots that're more team friendly. All that non-productive running around and PT being eaten up for 2 damn points and we're poo-pooing Bradley before he even suits up...some of us are.

Will someone please offer an explanation as to why we continue to draft players that aren't allowed to play on the big floor because they're either defensively deficient, too weak, have bad form, can't shot the 3 ball, or don't have the stamina to play 20 minutes out of a 48 minute game? If all these flaws are recognized BEFORE the draft, why go ahead and draft them anyway? I'm just trying to understand the thinking of management of the home team.

While we're bullsh!tt!ng about Reggie's return to his glorious form; "will he or won't he...where's his cape?" that type of nonsense, why not look into trading Ish Smith, to the PG desperate Bulls, for the rights to Nikola Mirotic? Mirotic is younger and far better than any PF we currently have under contract. Smith is not needed with the signing of Galloway and he's a professional journeyman anyway. The Bulls can enjoy some semblance of entertainment, for their fans sake, until their tanking plan comes to fruition. Win-win.

"Someone that takes bad shots in a system that won't tolerate that behavior doesn't get minutes to keep doing bad things. SVG has always encouraged this bad behavior, but he was bailed out in orlando by having much better shooters than he has here... hopefully we shoot a lot better this year."-Oracle
I agree whole heartedly with this snippet Oracle, because this would allow Harris to start at SF (his most effective position) and if we could bring Mirotic in, we'd have the type PF SVG wants, and if what many of us dream about taking place (Bradley @ PG and Kennard @ SG), SVG would have his 1 in 4 out starting lineup, which could save his job. Those "out" players are the best shooters/scorers on the Pistons and hopefully they would inspire Drummond to step up his game.

Is Reggie's contract insured? Can he be declared disabled and retired? Would we receive any CAP relief if he did retire? Like a rabbit from a hat, SVG pulled that stretch provision out of his ass to rid the team of Josh Smith; this why I'm searching for options for our highly paid, albeit, untradeable player, who very well may not play up to par again for the Pistons. If Reggie sits out this year, he will have sat or sucked twice as much as he's been a reliable asset; if that doesn't remind you of Brandon Roy, it's because Reggie's talent level was/is nowhere near Brandon's.

What's the average age of our core players and who really feel it's time to tear it all down to start a rebuild? This is not AAU, but the pros and it takes professional participation to make it work...patience and vision is professional, as is direction and philosophy, which we have none at this point....that's something that shouldn't be equated to player talent.

[Oracle]

With most of the big spending done for the 17-18 season, it is time to begin projecting cap space for the summer of 2018. There are still team options to be picked up on rookie scale contracts and extensions worked out for other players who are in the fourth year of their rookie deal, but the cap picture is coming into place.

Overall, the NBA is settling back into its normal cap environment. Approximately 80 percent of the league will be over the cap. The cap spike that caused multiple teams to have copious amounts of cap space each summer from 2015 through 2017 has now flattened out. Large contracts having been handed out over the previous three years, combined with the cap flattening and the increase in rookie scale deals, will see the NBA back to its regular state.

As it was before the spike, a handful of teams will be angling towards cap space. This year that group projections to include the Los Angeles Lakers, who haven’t been overly transparent in their plans to pursue LeBron James and Paul George as free agents, see the $500,000 fine for tampering. The Chicago Bulls and Dallas Mavericks similarly seem to be setting up to be a part of this exclusive club for the summer of 2018 as well.

In addition, for the first time in years, no team is guaranteed to start the summer with at least some cap space. In recent years, Brooklyn and Philadelphia have been virtual locks to have space to start out the summer. With both franchises having made trades, signings and, in the case of the 76ers, made high draft picks, they are positioned to start the summer over the cap.
A few notes on the projections in the tables:

• Latest cap projection of $102 million is used.
  
  
• Rookie Scale, Minimum Scale and Exceptions all bump up accordingly with percentage of the cap increase.
  
  
• Projections are made on which options will be picked up, both player and team.
  
  
• No extension projections are made.
  
  
• Cap holds for first round draft picks have been added to Projected Cap Space but not to Starting Cap Space.
  
  
• Starting Cap Space = the amount of space each team will have without renouncing or waiving any players/picks.
  
  
• Maximum Cap Space = the amount of space each team could have if they waived or renounced all players/picks who are not fully guaranteed.
  
  
• Projected Cap Space = the amount of space each team is projected to have after roster decisions are made.
  
  

Team	Starting  Cap Space	Maximum  Cap Space	Projected  Cap Space
Atlanta	$(2,769,282)	$44,051,771	$14,510,343
Boston	$(30,520,894)	$1,371,874	$(26,005,427)
Brooklyn	(8,056,642)	$37,874,757	$(4,384,518)
Charlotte	$(28,748,823)	$(13,268,035)	$(29,444,411)
Chicago	$(2,434,244)	$60,232,538	$37,631,336
Cleveland	$(68,196,323)	$21,900,115	$(63,630,868)
Dallas	$(23,223,672)	$52,175,118	$18,705,345
Denver	$(12,797,776)	$49,074,668	$(6,004,201)
Detroit	$(27,683,356)	$2,754,401	$(18,594,048)
Golden State	$(60,278,505)	$(3,583,756)	$(57,122,140)
Houston	$(46,068,886)	$18,839,300	$(41,034,033)
Indiana	$(7,087,903)	$57,190,878	$47,264,315
LA Clippers	$(52,805,592)	$38,163,626	$(40,843,767)
LA Lakers	$(41,515,972)	$49,948,102	$36,152,225
Memphis	$(30,176,696)	$5,938,688	$(19,803,669)
Miami	$(24,026,026)	$(5,986,994)	$(22,503,353)
Milwaukee	$(43,491,955)	$12,407,293	$(40,469,068)
Minnesota	$(24,419,820)	$21,422,715	$(24,547,498)
New Orleans	$(34,145,989)	$6,225,151	$(29,870,527)
New York	$(28,890,347)	$30,637,435	$(20,480,571)
Oklahoma City	$(63,519,582)	$44,245,068	$(52,256,334)
Orlando	$(25,607,325)	$21,461,177	$(24,779,630)
Philadelphia	$(14,891,561)	$75,788,326	$(18,562,457)
Phoenix	$(1,001,460)	$36,646,315	$(8,979,900)
Portland	$(47,810,695)	$(11,814,194)	$(48,016,425)
Sacramento	$(356,624)	$43,595,139	$(11,947,037)
San Antonio	$(53,703,846)	$41,604,178	$(44,482,010)
Toronto	$(44,331,083)	$(13,494,109)	$(35,964,192)
Utah	$(37,206,213)	$18,293,131	$(37,620,825)
Washington	$(46,905,814)	$(14,885,577)	$(35,612,408)

[Oracle]

Interesting as well is that in KCP's single digit games, almost all of them were Piston loses, where as Bradley's single digit games were about half wins/losses(benefit of a much better team?).

I'm really interested to see how this season plays out because while you say it's about a guy taking shots he's able to make, I can only partially agree with that. I believe it's what position the system and the PG puts you in, because in the NBA, you HAVE to take shots at certain times, and in SVG's offense in particular, it encourages poor shot taking.

I do notice that most people blame the player, and there is some percentage there, but I believe that coaching and system plays the much bigger role, and here's why.

Someone that takes bad shots in a system that won't tolerate that behavior doesn't get minutes to keep doing bad things. SVG has always encouraged this bad behavior, but he was bailed out in orlando by having much better shooters than he has here... hopefully we shoot a lot better this year.

Last year was a total mess which I lay 90% at the feet of coaching(SVG). Yes Reggie/Drummond have issues, but a better coach gets more out of them.

They're the ONLY two alpha dogs left, Bradley is at most a 3rd scoring option on a good team and Harris likely a 4th option on a good team.

BTW, mentioning Durant when talking about Bradley and KCP just seems WRONG 

KCP:  Avg- 14.3 ppg, stdev- 8.1 ppg,  %of avg- 57%,  single digit scoring gms - 24,  % of gm played - 33%

AB:    Avg- 16.2 ppg, stdev- 5.2 ppg,  %of avg- 32%,  single digit scoring gms - 5,  % of gm played - 9%

The numbers indicate AB is more of the kind of guy that takes shots he is able to make.

For Reference
Durant:   Avg- 25.5 ppg, stdev- 6.6 ppg,  %of avg- 26%,  single digit scoring gms - 0,  % of gm played - 0%

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