Just Saying

[deusXango]

Okay my intention were to have as little if any conversation about Moose this season because I expect him no longer with this team next season. What the team is dealing with now is what I've been saying would happen all along if we didn't trade him back in 2012.  Now look where its gotten us by not moving him.

I'm okay moving him come December 15th and letting him become someone else issue as to if they resign him our not.  The lesson here is that this organization needs to stop over-valuing players largely on what they might be one day if all the cards fall right.  They need to start drafting players with a winning pedigree and a more define talent and stop drafting based on hype.  

If you look at Moose last few games it's back to business as usual of a good game and then 4 games off.  This guy has huge character flaws and he always has.  I keep telling everyone to look beyond what you're seeing on the court and stop all the imagining of greatness because its never going to happen no matter if he's here or playing somewhere else.

Let me put it to you this way. If Moose was your average working stiff he would be the lazy stock boy who's content with the status quo as long as he was being guarantee the same money as everyone else and if it earn him an extra 25 cents for being taller then all the better.  He doesn't want to be manager or supervisor, hell he doesn't even want to be lead stock boy.  But some how you all have made him extra special and he knows it which is why he was able to pull that sh!t he did on SVG over the summer, it's way he playing so nonchalantly thus far.  Once this kid secure a 60-70 million deal nothing will change with him the money is guaranteed regardless of performance and all he has to do is show glimpses of potential to suck some team in.  

One would think he'll be balling for dear life and putting up huge numbers because of his current status and we kind of thought that last season but it didn't happen. I for one wasn't shocked because I've always seen him for the lazy ass he is.  I know that character and you all have seen those types in your own work place.  He's that guy you all tell the new guy to stay away from so that his crappy work habits doesn't rub off (too late Andre on his way)

Yes we should trade Moose for whatever really. even if it' s draft picks.  This team should consider all offers because losing him for nothing over the summer will tarnish SVG already tarnished start as GM.  He should have jump all over trades offers this summer but that over-valuing sh!t got the best of him.  I was all in for letting his ass walk, I don't have a real problem with it now that's how much I don't like Moose but from an image standpoint SVG screwed up because I wouldn't have put any offer on the table from day1 other than the QO. SVG out price Moose and scared other teams away.

Wise, you make so much sense, but there's one fatal flaw lurking in the back of your call for a trade; Stan Van Gundy! This guy all but asked for the Moose's hand in marriage, last summer, and I'm willing to bet (judging on his past selection of FA's) he's going to offer Monroe the moon. Falk and Monroe know this and if he's going to be traded, it'll be after he signs an outrageous contract with the Pistons, not after December 15th; he didn't come this far to relinquish his "Bird Rights."

SVG hasn't shown me sh!t as a pro-active GM, and the guys he brought in over the summer, ain't cutting it. As a coach, the magic seems to be gone; he hasn't realized yet that as long as Singler and Butler continues to eat up as much playing time at SF, we're a man short, due to their combined lack of contributions, both defensively and offensively.

Why doesn't Jennings have a ticket heading to L.A.? The Lakers that is; his town and his type of crazy ass team. Why hasn't SVG pulled the trigger on that one and be making an all-out commitment to Dinwiddie as our PG of the future? What, we might lose 7 in a row with him playing significant minutes?

[cool breeze]

Our three big men have one thing in common. They are not fundamentally sound players. Drummond fails to get a body on opposing players. He doesn't move his feet or stick his ass out a bit to make it a sure thing that he will get the weak side rebound. Monroe and Smith fail to do the same thing. Monroe watches the action while Ilyasova slashes to the basket behind him for and easy offensive rebound. Then does the same thing against Monroe about one minute later. For those of you who have played organized basketball or even against your big brother in the back yard, wouldn't you get pissed off at yourself if you made the same mistake twice in a short period of time. My big brother used to beat the hell out of me in the backyard playing ball and would tease me if i made mental mistakes. That made me a more determined player. It appears that some of our beloved pro players never have been faced with ridicule in their early days of development. Either that or they just don't really care. This is a job. They will get paid regardless. We we are watching these players get away with this stuff. Where is the coach? Stan is the guy who was supposed to clean this nonsense up. He was supposed to have complete control of this team with this duel role idea. So far Stan even and bigger coward than previous Piston coaches. Does he reinforce bad behavior with The Big Three and his other prized shoot first point guards who can't play defense? I am getting to the point that I would rather see Will Bynum play than DJ Augustin. What is equally puzzling to me is the lack of communication on the court by the Big Three on defense. These players have been around for while and have had their asses beat by everyone in the league but they still will not come together in an attempt to play better and help each other out. Smith switches off his man but doesn't tell Drummond and someone needs to communicate with Drummond to tell him what to do. That could make all the difference. So where in hell is the coaching? Why wouldn't the coach sit one of the big three and play Jerebco more. It is clear that Jerebco is becoming a lost soul. He knows that this coach has no faith in him. He watches the lame mental mistakes by Monroe especially on defense and must just be counting the days when this stint in Detroit is over. Talk about a coach helping to build team chemistry. This coach is only worried about how certain players feel about things. The rest can go to hell.

[cool breeze]

my best guess is that Tom Gores now believe that he made a huge mistake in giving Stan Van Gundy so much power to run this team. If so, I would agree and would really be pissed off. If any other less known coach had been hired for less money than Van Gundy is making and continued to allow the same players to make the same mistakes over and over you can bet that that coach would have been fired. Van Gundy has done all the wrong things so far. He has rewarded players who shoot the ball so poorly they wouldn't get any playing time on any other NBA team. He manipulates things so much to keep his favorites on the floor that players who do care about doing the right thing and play team style basketball are fed up because they have no idea where they stand with this coach. What really bothers me is what Stan has said previously about Spencer Dinwiddie to the press. He said that Dinwiddie has not played basketball for over a year and it shows on the court although at the time he didn't give Spencer any playing time other than one short stint at 2 guard. Notice that Van Gundy didn't play Dinwiddie at point guard in this one attempt to show he was giving the rookie a shot. I Then Jennings gets injured. What will Stan do. He has to play Dinwiddie. And I can't help but believe that Stan hopes that Dinwiddie will fail. After all, Van Gundy told the press that Spencer needed to spend time in the D league. No I believe that Stan's guys, Augustin and Jennings should spend time in the D League learning how to play defense and passing the basketball on offense. On Spencer's first outing playing point guard he did a good job playing in the first half of that game. So why did Van Gundy play Augustin for the entire 2nd half especially when Augustin was not playing well???? He did it because Stan is a person who wants the world to be the way he wants it to be and will do anything to muddy the water to make it come out that way even if he screws certain players. He never must think about the good of the team or the future of the team. It is only about proving that he is right about who can do the job. And so far is is wrong. this is the way I see things right now and I hope that I am wrong about this coach.

[cool breeze]

If this is being done, then i have my doubts that players who consistently make mental mistakes will ever be coachable. I am just getting to this past game now and am in the 2nd quarter. I stopped the game at the 5:05 minute mark of the 2nd quarter. I stopped the game because I was pissed off with Andre Drummond. At this exact point in time, Drummond was standing in the middle of the painted area guarding nobody. His man was outside the 3 point line getting ready to receive the pass that anyone could predict. In fact all the Bucks players were looking that way before the pass was made. Sure enough, Drummond's man gets the ball and shoots with no attempt by Drummond to move out and put a hand up. Shot made and Detroit gets further behind. I only point out this play because Drummond did the same damn thing 3 possessions in a row. His man was standing all alone while all the other Piston players were doing the right thing. The Bucks possession before this one that I have brought out had Dinwiddie leaving his man at the last minute trying to get over to put a hand in Drummond's man's face. This possession it was Singler who had to leave his man to sprint over about 10 yards in an attempt to guard Drummond's man. My best guess is that Stan Van Gundy will blame Dinwiddie and Singler for allowing this Bucks player to be so wide open. Or maybe Stan will deflect blame where he should be going to put it all on Spencer's shoulders. Yes, Stan might say, this rookie has a lot to learn. I just don't trust this coach to do the right thing and will continue to give playing time to players who make the most mistakes while cutting playing time to players I see doing the right thing. Van Gundy needs to do something to make sure that when Jennings is healed up, he can play only Jennings and Augustin at the point guard position. But I see that Dinwiddie is going to be a really good player on some team but most likely not with Detroit.

At the start of the 2nd quarter, I thought that the 2nd unit was doing pretty good spreading the ball around and moving without the ball. Then one possession changed everything. Spencer brought the ball up court and made the first pass to Butler. Butler takes one dribble and shoots a low percentage shot early in the shot clock. From that point on, I saw Butler on the next possession going to the wrong spot running to the wing where there were already two Piston players. Butler should have gone to the opposite baseline to spread the defense.  So it wasn't the rookie that screwed up the offense. It was one of Van Gundy's prize players. Now I like Butler and he usually does the right thing but I hate it when coaches place the blame on the wrong player and use that player as a scapegoat because they have some master plan and want the world to be the way they want it to be rather than the way it actually is. If this coach doesn't play Dinwiddie at point guard when Jennings returns, I will think of him as an evil bastard and politician not a real coach. Notice that Dinwiddie was removed by this coach and replaced by Augustin right after Dudley made that shot. Dudley was Smith's man but Smith switched off and Drummond failed to register anything in his brain especially the fact that he was not guarding anyone. But that was Spencer's fault according to this coach. Hey Van Gundy, did anything improve when Augustin came in the game? I am starting to detest this coach if you didn't guess.

[WTF]

Okay my intention were to have as little if any conversation about Moose this season because I expect him no longer with this team next season. What the team is dealing with now is what I've been saying would happen all along if we didn't trade him back in 2012. Now look where its gotten us by not moving him.

I'm okay moving him come December 15th and letting him become someone else issue as to if they resign him our not. The lesson here is that this organization needs to stop over-valuing players largely on what they might be one day if all the cards fall right. They need to start drafting players with a winning pedigree and a more define talent and stop drafting based on hype.

If you look at Moose last few games it's back to business as usual of a good game and then 4 games off. This guy has huge character flaws and he always has. I keep telling everyone to look beyond what you're seeing on the court and stop all the imagining of greatness because its never going to happen no matter if he's here or playing somewhere else.

Let me put it to you this way. If Moose was your average working stiff he would be the lazy stock boy who's content with the status quo as long as he was being guarantee the same money as everyone else and if it earn him an extra 25 cents for being taller then all the better. He doesn't want to be manager or supervisor, hell he doesn't even want to be lead stock boy. But some how you all have made him extra special and he knows it which is why he was able to pull that sh!t he did on SVG over the summer, it's way he playing so nonchalantly thus far. Once this kid secure a 60-70 million deal nothing will change with him the money is guaranteed regardless of performance and all he has to do is show glimpses of potential to suck some team in.

One would think he'll be balling for dear life and putting up huge numbers because of his current status and we kind of thought that last season but it didn't happen. I for one wasn't shocked because I've always seen him for the lazy ass he is. I know that character and you all have seen those types in your own work place. He's that guy you all tell the new guy to stay away from so that his crappy work habits doesn't rub off (too late Andre on his way)

Yes we should trade Moose for whatever really. even if it' s draft picks. This team should consider all offers because losing him for nothing over the summer will tarnish SVG already tarnished start as GM. He should have jump all over trades offers this summer but that over-valuing sh!t got the best of him. I was all in for letting his ass walk, I don't have a real problem with it now that's how much I don't like Moose but from an image standpoint SVG screwed up because I wouldn't have put any offer on the table from day1 other than the QO. SVG out price Moose and scared other teams away.

[WTF]

Are Wise & Dumars working together? Wise wanted this Josh as SF stuff WELL before anybody thought that we could get Josh and Wise didn't like Knight as PG despite the evidence that he wasn't the problem! Those with keen eyes saw a talent that simply needed time to mature and develop, and he's nowhere near his peak!

Oracle, you're pulling a Don by overstating.  

You are correct and incorrect, I always wanted Josh but not specifically playing SF I wanted Josh as a starting piece next to Monroe that was my initial desire of having Josh until Joe drafted Andre and then I wanted Josh to replace Monroe.  But never at any time did I want Josh as a primary SF!!!

You are correct and incorrect again,  I didn't like Knight before we drafted him,  I didn't like when we drafted him and I don't think I like him now.  But here's where you're overstating starts, I never single Knight out as the problem, Knight was clearly one of many problems along with Bynum, Maxiell, Moose, Stuckey and the variety of coaching issues to go with them.  

Oracle, I still stand by my desire to have Josh on the team, and I still think Knight isn't a solid NBA PG though he's gotten better.  Knight my be even better than every PG on our team but who isn't so I'm not putting much stock in him whipping on our asses.  I still see him doing a lot of the same things that makes me think he's an undersize SG.  

I know Knight was a favorite of both you and Don and you'll always wanted him to be the next great thing here.  But nothing that he's doing say's he's an All Star, future All Star or a lock to running the Bucks next season. He's just better at this point (maybe) than what we're currently dealing with in our back court.[/b]

[Sebastian]

GM Stan needs to have a Conference Call with Moose, David Falk, the Phoenix Sun.. Offer Moose and a top five protected 2015 Draft pick (or 2016 unprotected First Round Pick) to the Suns for Alex Lin (C) and T.J. Warren (SF).

A so called, "proven commodity" for two untried rookies and one of them is playing an overcrowded position (SF) is worth another first round draft pick? We should be collecting first round picks, not giving them away.

DX, my thinking, here, is you have to give something to get something. So putting a little butter on the proposal makes it more possible that a trade can be executed. Personally, I don't see much promise in next year's draft or the season after, but I must admit I am not a much of a collegiate scout. But, WE already have enough youth in Dre' Drumbs, Dinwiddie, and KCP, adding two more young but ready to contribute young NBA players (T.J. Warren and Alex Lin). WE don't need any 19 year old players on OUR roster. Maybe, a 2015 second round pick, something. Will you do something GM Stan?! WE are getting OUR asses handed to US every night. And, tomorrow afternoon WE face the Golden State Warriors.


The more Moose continues to play out of position in a crowded Pistons front line, he looses money. If he gets on the Suns roster he can become a dominant offensive center and increase his stock.
Is this about securing Moose's future or improving the home team? The Suns already can kick our asses, even without the Moose, so what's his declining stock to do with anything? Moose straight-up for the two rookies is more than fair, or Moose for T.J. Warren and their 2015 top five protected pick.

The Suns need an offensive-minded Center added to their roster and they know it.

GM Stan this roster is not going to make it to January.
Too true!
Hell, I don't believe I am going to make it to January if significant alterations aren't made.

Note: Moose can't be traded, until Dec. 15.
None too soon, if you ask me, but nobody's asking.  

Sebastian, I know you're disgusted, as many of us are, but you could've thought that through a lot better than that and I know it.

[deusXango]

GM Stan needs to have a Conference Call with Moose, David Falk, the Phoenix Sun.. Offer Moose and a top five protected 2015 Draft pick (or 2016 unprotected First Round Pick) to the Suns for Alex Lin (C) and T.J. Warren (SF).
A so called, "proven commodity" for two untried rookies and one of them is playing an overcrowded position (SF) is worth another first round draft pick? We should be collecting first round picks, not giving them away.

The more Moose continues to play out of position in a crowded Pistons front line, he looses money. If he gets on the Suns roster he can become a dominant offensive center and increase his stock.
Is this about securing Moose's future or improving the home team? The Suns already can kick our asses, even without the Moose, so what's his declining stock to do with anything? Moose straight-up for the two rookies is more than fair, or Moose for T.J. Warren and their 2015 top five protected pick.

GM Stan this roster is not going to make it to January.
Too true!

Note: Moose can't be traded, until Dec. 15.
None too soon, if you ask me, but nobody's asking.  

Sebastian, I know you're disgusted, as many of us are, but you could've thought that through a lot better than that and I know it.

[Phil-Good]

It's been A lot of mistakes made. "We better make the playoffs or else." That was A costly mistake by Gores and i hope he has learn from it because Detroit is in S.H.I.T.S. Vallie now.

All the threats and adding A billion dollar TV at the palace won't fix how bad the Pistons are and will be for the foreseeable future.

So now it's time to sit back and take our lumps just like all the teams that kick our ass, had to do.

Right now I consider the Detroit Pistons 2014/15 season and A official rebuild season. This not the 2003 Miami Heat. There is no rookie, D.Wade on this team.

In-house development, salary dumping trades, adding multiple draft picks. First and second round picks, staying healthy, keeping around some guys and letting others move on, is all this season is about now. No more looking for the 8th playoff spot. A top 3 pick in the NBA draft is out playoffs. A chance to land A game changer is our playoffs in my opinion.

[Oracle]

GM Stan needs to have a Conference Call with Moose, David Falk, the Phoenix Sun.. Offer Moose and a top five protected 2015 Draft pick (or 2016 unprotected First Round Pick) to the Suns for Alex Lin (C) and T.J. Warren (SF).

The more Moose continues to play out of position in a crowded Pistons front line, he looses money. If he gets on the Suns roster he can become a dominant offensive center and increase his stock.

WE get a young, scoring SF and a 7'1" rim protector, who would be a great back-up to Dre Drumbs, both Warren and Lin are on rookie contracts.

GM Stan this roster is not going to make it to January.

Note: Moose can't be traded, until Dec. 15.

Nostradamus!

Wow, the smart move and money is clearly on getting the hell out of here!

Moose must have thought that they sent Knight to a hell hole, and now he comes back kicking Piston ass on a regular basis!

Moose saw the Pistons give Knight the shaft, and now he's removed the stick from Knight ass and plunging it squarely up Gores and the Pistons ass!

All of Gores instincts have been horribly wrong! He set Joe up to fail and he pulled the trigger on Cheeks way too fast, and in the biggest over reaction, he turned everything over to SVG... WOW, he's batting 1000% on the Buzzards Scale!!!

Major Mistakes to get rid of both Stuckey & Bynum without replacing them with real talent! They were at a minimum great changes of pace, but most importantly, guys that could score when nothing else was working.

[Oracle]

The tooth hurts, but I'm glad someone sees what I've been posting since season start!

The Bucks can shoot the ball. Detroit can't shoot the ball. That was the difference in this game. - Phillip

We simply can't keep up with teams in the shooting department, and will always fall behind and find it hard to recover, especially when they can stop our momentum by fouling us, only for our guys to brick it at the FT line!

In short, SVG fixed absolutely ZERO problems, and introduced a bunch more!

Then I have to read headlines like this...

Stuckey leads Pacers past Magic 98-83

West's return to the lineup overshadowed a season-high 24 points for Rodney Stuckey. The seventh-year guard, in his first season in Indiana, improved on a 22-point effort in Indiana's previous game, a loss at San Antonio.

"It feels great when you have your whole team out there and you're competing with each other, going to battle with your teammates," Stuckey said. "I'm still getting my legs underneath me. The more I play the better condition I'll be in.

And read Tweets like this,

Vincent Goodwill  @vgoodwill
Follow
Remember those pick-rolls Knight would try to split but couldn't? Well, he's doing it now. Dropped it to Jabari for a dunk

Vincent Goodwill  @vgoodwill
Follow
So impressive the way Knight now splits those double teams. Yes, I know the Pistons traded him, why they did and for who...

Are Wise & Dumars working together? Wise wanted this Josh as SF stuff WELL before anybody thought that we could get Josh, and Wise didn't like Knight as PG despite the evidence that he wasn't the problem! Those with keen eyes saw a talent that simply needed time to mature and develop, and he's nowhere near his peak!

Everybody that liked Josh as a player, but knew he was dumb as nails at times, give yourselves a standing O! While Singler is nowhere near the problem that Josh is, if you had a problem with him starting anywhere, you were correct. He's not the problem, but he certainly isn't the solution.

But the biggest dumbass award has to go to Gores! SVG may work out in the long run, but IMO, Lil Larry and Cheeks both would be doing one hell of a lot better with this team!

SVG appears like Phil Jackson to me. If they don't have enough talent, and talent that fits their system, they aren't worth sh!t! Unlike a great coach, they can't take the talent that they have and fit the system to them.

That's what Cheeks did,

[*] Tyler J  @tylerjamesson
@stareagle What half crt offense? The running game + crash the O glass under Cheeks was actually working last yr.Now no running or half crt

[*]

Cheeks played to the team's strength, NOT their weaknesses, which is what SVG plays to and it's hurting them.

Memo to SVG:
1. We can't shoot 3's worth a damn, so why don't you focus on getting the BEST shot, not a hail mary
2. You need to drill FT shooting a lot harder
3. This team is born to run and crash the glass! Yeah we may give up a few more points, but we might win a bit more!

A twist on an old saying: You play the games with the team you have, NOT the team you wished you had!

[Sebastian]

GM Stan needs to have a Conference Call with Moose, David Falk, the Phoenix Sun.. Offer Moose and a top five protected 2015 Draft pick (or 2016 unprotected First Round Pick) to the Suns for Alex Lin (C) and T.J. Warren (SF).

The more Moose continues to play out of position in a crowded Pistons front line, he looses money. If he gets on the Suns roster he can become a dominant offensive center and increase his stock.

WE get a young, scoring SF and a 7'1" rim protector, who would be a great back-up to Dre Drumbs, both Warren and Lin are on rookie contracts.

GM Stan this roster is not going to make it to January.

Note: Moose can't be traded, until Dec. 15.

[Phil-Good]

The Bucks can shoot the ball. Detroit can't shoot the ball. That was the difference in this game.

The Bucks had Detroit spread all the way out on defense. Detroit shooters don't scare anybody.

But the defense was solid. Detroit could use A lift at the 2 guard and small forward positions.

The PG positions could use A stud as well. But the PG play is not losing games for Detroit as the other two positions are losing games.

Also, the free thrown shooting has to be at the bottom of the league. It's really bad..bad..bad....

[Sparma]

Each of the Buck starters had a negative +/-; their five subs averaged a bit better than + 20. I've never seen anything like it.

Drummond had a monster game at 26 and 20, including a beautiful baseline baby hook (he tried the same move later, resulting in an airball).

Smith had a weird game: 9 assists (great for a big guy!) & 6 TOs (horrible, especially for a big guy). Smith found AD a number of times, which was good to see.

We looked great during that early 13-0 run (after falling behind 6-1). David Mayo had some good stats on the big 3, who started together again, essentially demonstrating they as a unit shouldn't receive the primary blame for our struggles, given that they don't play together all that much and they don't have that bad a +/- score as a threesome, relative to other Pistons combinations.

Kelser repeatedly identified the troubles on D: Milwaukee had a bunch of good shooters on the floor, as well as good dribble penetration, forcing a spread out defense, creating acres of space down the middle, allowing dribble penetration, passes out to open shooters, etc.

Sounds like what SVG would like to do on O, if we ever have a personnell.

[Sebastian]

Damn!!!!!

In the "could had been, should had been" category: Rodney Norvell Stuckey, scored 24 points in a Pacers victory over the Magic, 98-83.

[cool breeze]

Both Josh & Singler brought their "A" games, even though both got untimely technicals, I was actually happy to see Singler show enough emotion to get T'd up, IMO, that's a good sign!

Not only was the defense stout, the boys showed a hell of a lot of HEART! If they can play like that for even 50% of their games, the wins will start rolling in! I seriously hope that this is the start of something big!

Martin looked good out there, even if he was rusty! I now remember what he brought that was missing... just a constant awareness of what's going on and a solidly active moving body that's pesky on defense and available on offense. We really missed him.

But the surprise of the night for me was Dinwiddie! The kid played surprisingly cool and calm for a rookie getting the most PT he's ever seen! I think Sparma said it good, "Augustin and Dinwiddie looked like quite an able PG duo last night", and I agree!



If SVG was wearing his glasses last night, he would have seen that the future is calling him at PG. The facts, IMO, speak for themselves. Dinwiddie is the best starting PG(not now, but later this year), and Augustin is the best backup PG! Jennings is a microwave type player, but one we need to move for maybe an SF?

IMO, if the level of play increases like that, KCP will emerge from his funk, which he showed some progress last night, and we'll get to see another good Piston tandem of Dinwiddie & KCP, two big guards again!!!

Happy Turkey Day guys, and here's to hoping that this was the game that turns them around!!!

Lions coming on in a few!!!

Hope you all had a great Thanksgiving Piston fans.

Oracle I liked what you said here. I have my doubts that Stan Van Gundy will do the right thing this season. Maybe he has been playing certain combinations to show there is not doubt that the Big 3 will not work. But for at least one half of this past game, the starters looked like real NBA players. Notice that Jennings did not play. And Jennings is playing a lot better this season than he did last year. But his focus on offense is to ignore all other players but Smith. And Smith somehow finds Jennings a lot which makes some of us believe that they have a secret agreement to freeze out certain players at times. I believe that they have done that in the first quarter of games. After halftime it seems to stop which would indicate that the coaching staff has advised Jennings to play both sides of the floor. The best thing that could happen would be to start Spencer Dinwiddie for the remainder of the season and give him some slack when he makes mistakes as he learns all the players tendencies like Stan has done with KCP. KCP leads the team in minutes while shooting the ball poorly. It has to be true that KCP has the worst shooting stats in every category than any other starting 2 guard. But next season, KCP might become a great two way player. This same thing could happen with Dinwiddie. Spencer has a huge upside. It is clear that he has the mindset to get an offense clicking. He doesn't dribble for 14 seconds to get the half court offense started. My idea would be to have Augustin and Jennings share the backup point guard position and to play both of them at times in the 2 guard position if they can defend. Let them both fight it out for playing time. Give the rookie room to make his mistakes without feeling any pressure. My gut feeling is that Detroit Piston fans will finally bond with a Piston point guard which means more filled seats for the owner. It won't matter if the Pistons lose if they play the game the right way like they did for most of the game against the Clippers. As of now, every team in the league knows where the ball is going when Jennings and Smith are on the floor together. With Dinwiddie opponents will have to cover the entire court which means more easy shots for the big men like Drummond and Monroe.

However, it is doubtful that Stan Van Gundy has the guts to make that move to start Spencer. He fears Smith and Jennings. I suspect that Dinwiddie will fall into the same category as other players who never receive consistent minutes from game to game. And the Pistons will continue to lose while Spencer loses confidence because he will never know where he stands with this coach. As you can tell, I am not happy with the way this coach looks while sitting on the bench and how he thinks during the games. Stan looks like he is a very unhealthy man. He is not physically fit and he is over weight. I always think that if you are a coach and show the players that you lead an unhealthy lifestyle, that you lose respect and have a difficult time being a consistently smart bench coach. This team needs a steady hand. Stan looks like he is a very fragile human being right now. Does he have what is needed to keep this group under control if he does really have the guts to do the right thing for the Detroit Piston's future? I was all for Stan Van Gundy when he was hired but I have great difficulty understanding what he has been doing since this season opened. I can easily identify the strategy Orlando and some other lower ranked teams have in place to get them up to speed to become a contender in the future. Maybe Van Gundy is trying to build up certain players credentials to make them have a higher trade value. If so, that strategy is not working although Jennings stats have improved. If Jennings could be moved, and Stan does it, then I will change my mind but is suspect that Van Gundy will stick with shoot first point guards until the fans run him out of town.

[Oracle]

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[Oracle]

[WTF]

They played hard and SVG actually took the blame for this loss.

Man I miss Grizz, Fly Dog, Rhett, Frankie D. Where every you guys are Happy Thanksgiving and I hope all is well with you and your families.

[Oracle]

Both Josh & Singler brought their "A" games, even though both got untimely technicals, I was actually happy to see Singler show enough emotion to get T'd up, IMO, that's a good sign!

Not only was the defense stout, the boys showed a hell of a lot of HEART! If they can play like that for even 50% of their games, the wins will start rolling in! I seriously hope that this is the start of something big!

Martin looked good out there, even if he was rusty! I now remember what he brought that was missing... just a constant awareness of what's going on and a solidly active moving body that's pesky on defense and available on offense. We really missed him.

But the surprise of the night for me was Dinwiddie! The kid played surprisingly cool and calm for a rookie getting the most PT he's ever seen! I think Sparma said it good, "Augustin and Dinwiddie looked like quite an able PG duo last night", and I agree!

If SVG was wearing his glasses last night, he would have seen that the future is calling him at PG. The facts, IMO, speak for themselves. Dinwiddie is the best starting PG(not now, but later this year), and Augustin is the best backup PG! Jennings is a microwave type player, but one we need to move for maybe an SF?

IMO, if the level of play increases like that, KCP will emerge from his funk, which he showed some progress last night, and we'll get to see another good Piston tandem of Dinwiddie & KCP, two big guards again!!!

Happy Turkey Day guys, and here's to hoping that this was the game that turns them around!!!

Lions coming on in a few!!!

[Sebastian]

Another "L", but strangely this was probably the best game that WE have played, this season. Individually, everybody played perhaps their best game of the season, while playing like a real NBA team. Although Moose wasn't his usually self (6 pts., 9 rbs.).

It also looked like the team communicated on defense and offense more than any game prior. Dinwiddie showed promise, in his best game as a pro. Josh was under control. Dre Drumbs was active and followed up Tuesday's outing with another good game. KCP and D.J. balled hard. Even Kyle Singler had a positive shift (two dunks and a three), while on the floor just 7 minutes. Now, that is the way the 9th-man is suppose to play!

GM Stan has got to still alter this roster. WE can not just be satisfied with moral victories.

In other news: My boy Rodney Norvell Stuckey had a good game (22 pts, 4 ast, 4 rbs, 2 stls.), in a lost to the Spurs.

[Sparma]

Augustin and Dinwiddie looked like quite an able PG duo last night. I'm still thinking, and hoping, there's a trade opportunity for Jennings, who's played quite well this year but to whom I don't want to entrust the role of primary floor general. Jennings is playing up to his contract, I'd agree with David Mayo.

[Phil-Good]

Fun game. The Pistons worked hard and came up short. But Drummonds looks to have his old swag back. The rookie looks good. The defense was solid, the effort was solid. Can't complain about too much. The boys just came up short to A more experienced team with Jamal Crawford showing his closer abilities.

[cool breeze]

First off I believe that Josh Smith played his best first quarter of his entire stay in Detroit so far. He did almost everything right. I liked the adjustment in the offense where Josh received the first pass around the center of the court above the free throw line. He was able to pick the defense apart with his passes. He played good defense and was a leader on the floor. In fact I thought Josh played well for the entire first half. Everyone seemed to be playing better with the exception of Greg Monroe who had a tough night in many respects.

Once again KCP played way too many minutes. It is as if Van Gundy is not watching the game at all. KCP was getting beat in the 2nd half especially in the 4th quarter most of the time. But that was the coaches fault. KCP should be restricted to around 25 minutes at most. KCP was attempting some really low percentage shots and I think that was because he was tired. KCP is still a work in progress. His shooting stats are horrible. He needs some down time to get himself back on track in my opinion so his confidence rises.

The big story of the night has to be SPENCER DINWIDDIE. This guy is head and shoulders better at playing point guard than either Jennings or Augustin. Notice his timing with the first pass and how he breaks down the defense under control and knows where his teammates are located on the floor. Dinwiddie is a high IQ basketball player who's development has been hurt by coach Stan Van Gundy. Spencer is a natural leader on both offense and defense. Notice how he motions to players to move to the proper spots. His awareness of spacing is way above that of either of Van Gundy's two top point guards. This team is not going to do much this season but I doubt that Van Gundy will throw in the towel relating to Augustin or Jennings so it still could be a long season for Spencer Dinwiddie. fans need to put some pressure on this coach to do the right thing.

What is Jerebco's role on this team? I see Jonas doing all the right things on defense and offense. He plays the right way but never knows where he stands relating to playing time. And it seems that whenever the 2nd unit of Jerebco, Butler, Singler, Dinwiddie and either Drummond or Monroe has a nice run going and gets the lead back, suddenly out of nowhere, the coach will insert two or more of the starters. Then we see the team go back into a funk.

Overall I enjoyed watching the Detroit Pistons for the first time all season even though they lost this game.

[cool breeze]

While Don minimizes and mildly views Singler's complete and total regression, Wise is doing the same with Josh!

The problem with both positions is that it ignores the complete and total regression of almost everybody else on the team!

This team isn't as good as the last Knight team that featured Maxiell as our PF, with Calderon as PG! This team may have more talent on paper, news flash, they aren't playing these games on paper.

But the bigger question is this: If almost every player is regressing, there is something bigger going on!

Interestingly, both Don & Wise tend to believe that it's always the players, but that's the easy answer, because it takes a lot more work to determine if it's coaching.

However, when I look at this, it's 100% clear that the problem is coaching, but that's not a judgment of good or bad coaching at this point, because that's not clear.

This is a judgment that coaching is causing what's going on now, but it may just be the process that the players have to go through to get to where the coaching has a different effect.

IMO, that's essentially what SVG is seeing. He wants to get certain principles across, but he underestimated the impact of them not working immediately, and the down effect of losing while it plays out.

However, major mistakes were made in getting the pieces to help this club. NONE of the "Shooters" SVG brought in have been of any help to this team, that's a 100% failure by SVG the GM.

In short, SVG either as coach or GM is pretty much a failure early on!

BTW, I think it was a major mistake to get rid of the two players that knew how to get to the rim when shots weren't falling, Stuckey & Bynum, and not replace them. Right now, we do one of two things. Either one of the bigs will score or we shoot a jumper! We don't have rim attackers that are feared, just guys that can dribble out the shot clock for bad shots!

We struggle because of what I always hated about SVG's Orlando teams, too much reliance on 3 point shooting. I much prefer having both a midrange game and rim attackers, and we've been most successful with those!

Oracle I agree with you relating to your belief that this year coaching is the issue. Players don't really know what their roles are this season especially the bench players. KCP is still learning the game yet his playing time leads all players most nights. Augustin played the entire 2nd half against the Bucks when Dinwiddie played will at point guard in the first half. Van Gundy is surprising me with his lack of knowledge of the weaknesses and strengths of his players. It is early in the season so I will give him more time but so far I believe the coaching in the past two seasons was better than this season. He did go with Spencer tonight in the 2nd half. But there is no doubt that if Jennings were not injured, Dinwiddie would not play much at all this season. Van Gundy just wrote him off before the Jennings injury. He played Spencer at the 2 guard in one other game and then thought he knew everything he wanted to know about this rookie. I know better because I have watched Dinwiddie play at Colorado and execute the offense with 3 players trying to guard him. I have to say my gut feeling is that I don't trust in Stan Van Gundy's basic judgment right now.

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