Obviously Drugs have taken over the Media!!!

[Oracle]

"I don’t know what’s more surprising — the fact that a Pistons player received attention in this afternoon’s NBA All-Defensive team voting by the media.

Or the fact that James Harden, somehow — someway, received two votes from the media as one of the best defensive players in the game.

Yeah, that’s right.

The media we entrust to bring us the news and best views from across the association threw two votes to one of the worst on-ball defenders in the league. They gave props to the man that ended Houston’s season early by trying to grab the bull by the horns late in game six of the opening round of the Western Conference playoffs" - Andre Drummond lands one vote on NBA All-Defensive Team

[deusXango]

Lock me in stocks in the public square and place 100 stripes across my back; the great Fennis Dembo aka "Biff Burns" is never to be slighted, and the far above average Lemon Pen has provided me with some of the most thought provoking and humorous posts I've read anywhere.

Fennis by far is the most consistently creative writer, not only on this site, but anywhere...please forgive the omission by me, it was not intended. I'm blaming it on brain damage created by watching Joe Dumars pretending to be a GM.

Lemon epitomizes the statement "the pen is mightier than the sword;" your rapier quick and stabbing wit always amazes me...I know it's just a matter of time before I fall before your blade.

For the record I miss all the posters who don't show up anymore, like Fly Dog, Grizz, Flip (the father of this site), Frankie D, and let's all send a prayer UP's way...that's to name a few.

[WTF]

League needs to have a random drug testing during the off season.  Man I'm so tired of these young athletes, his dumb ass needs to some fu@king where practicing.  He needs to be in here sniffing SVG ass about right now instead of at some club looking like a Tupac wannabe.  

Wise, it also goes to show how far off the rails Dumars went when it came to judging character! He traded two hard working, high character players in Knight & Middleton for a clown act!

AI, then Jennings?  Are you freaking kidding me? Although I don't put AI in Jennings category, AI may have had issues, but they weren't anything like Jennings.

I'm not even bothered by the lifestyle, they're young and should be having fun with their peers, but Nick Young has enough sense to protect the engine of his business... his body, and Nick plays hard, even if dumb at times.

Jennings just seems far gone to me, and doesn't have his head screwed on properly! It doesn't seem like he's taking any of this seriously!

I've certain lost a large amount of respect for Jennings. How big of a dumb ass can he be that he didn't think this would be You Tube material and you would think this is the last thing you would want a new coach and president to see you doing.

[Oracle]

League needs to have a random drug testing during the off season.  Man I'm so tired of these young athletes, his dumb ass needs to some fu@king where practicing.  He needs to be in here sniffing SVG ass about right now instead of at some club looking like a Tupac wannabe.  

Wise, it also goes to show how far off the rails Dumars went when it came to judging character! He traded two hard working, high character players in Knight & Middleton for a clown act!

AI, then Jennings?  Are you freaking kidding me? Although I don't put AI in Jennings category, AI may have had issues, but they weren't anything like Jennings.

I'm not even bothered by the lifestyle, they're young and should be having fun with their peers, but Nick Young has enough sense to protect the engine of his business... his body, and Nick plays hard, even if dumb at times.

Jennings just seems far gone to me, and doesn't have his head screwed on properly! It doesn't seem like he's taking any of this seriously!

[WTF]

League needs to have a random drug testing during the off season. Man I'm so tired of these young athletes, his dumb ass needs to some fu@king where practicing. He needs to be in here sniffing SVG ass about right now instead of at some club looking like a Tupac wannabe.

[Oracle]

Don't forget Lemonpen on that list!

--------------------------------------------------

PLEASE trade Jennings ASAP, he is NOT a Piston!!!

[WTF]

DX I've always thought that you and I along with our brother from another mother the one and only Fly Dog are peas in a pod.  I never been a conformist and I don't jump bandwagons I build them and steer them   

We do have some great posters here just wish we had many more of the old Pistons Talk gang here with us passing the knowledge.  

Except Sour Pee Boy he's an idiot but that's what you want from a cheerleader, he's a rebel without a cause,  a crash test dummy for all of Joe's dumb ideas.    

DX, we have to throw some kudos at Fennis who made this joke of a season bearable.  Kept us laughing to keep us from crying most of the time so I big THANKS! to Fennis.

LOL! me, Oracle and Don are like an episode of South Park Don is definitely Cartman   I'm Kyle, and Oracle is Stan.  PBoy you are Timmy  

[deusXango]

Allow me to be real and clear the deck of my personal nonsense; my last rant wasn't directed at anyone on this forum (even though some can fit into a certain category, if they choose), but rather some feelings generated from reading/participating on other sports forums...utter nonsense, for the most part, if you ask me, compared to the "stick to the point, I challenge that" attitude that drives this forum.

I have nothing but respect for the diverse group of loyal Pistons fans on this site; those who've stuck true to the dialogue of todays news for our hard court heroes have grown close to my heart...some have abandoned "Pistons Talk" for reasons of obligations to life and others, well, who knows, but it's those that stick and stay who I wouldn't intentionally offend.

Phillip Boy, who seems to have had a change of work shift, but remains active with his input early in the morning...keep making the "donuts" man, that's what greases the wheels of a sound life.

Sissy, who sticks his head in from time to time, but doesn't share his passionate insights much...miss you 'bro.

"The balcony boys," Merc and Murph; for some reason I connect those two gentlemen, maybe it's because they seem to be hard working, dedicated men who love the game of basketball and when time permits, they share some down-to-earth insights...are you guys related?

Sparma is a real off beat dude (I mean it in an affectionate way); when he comes on I feel like I'm having a fireside chat with Aristotle, Plato, or Alfred E. Newman...I'm always left with something to think about.

Don, the man from Tucson. Your insights on player performance and evaluations of players not on the Midwestern radar is invaluable. You a passionate guy who still believes in what makes this team great...defense. Why you think J-Smoove is trash is beyond me, considering your basketball values...I guess there's more for me to learn from you.

Sebastian, what can I say? If Stuckey doesn't come back (which I hope he don't) what'll we scrap over? More often than not we're on the same page, but our Stuckey wars were epic...mad props 'bro.

Wise, m'man, I feel like we're kindred spirits when it comes to the uncompromising demands to enjoy a top product representing the city of Detroit. It ain't always easy, but damn, it's enjoyable and rewarding. "I'm an outlaw baby, outlaw!"

Oracle, I saved you for last; the best should be introduced last. I always find you to be the voice of reason...clear thinking, open minded, and when I've left the farm, you always reign me in. It's good to have a conscience in the flesh and you've been the conscience of this forum (like it or not!). I continue to rely on your knowledge.

I'm giving my fellow posters a shout out out now, because in the days to come, we'll certainly have our lively discourses when SVG starts doing his thing. What'll he do with Smith/Monroe at PF, and who will carry the most value in putting this franchise back on track. What will he do with this sorry ass cadre of PG's? Jennings, Bynum, Billups, and even Siva, can't be looked at as viable solutions to get our record on the upswing. One thing's for sure, they take up 25% of the active roster space! Will we see Mitchell's athletic abilities under SVG's tutelage? Will we see what Datome has going for him as an NBA player...shooter, defender, passer, a guy who can think his way all the way through a game, or will we continue to jock Singler, like he's the second coming of Grant Hill? I'm sure to have some thoughts and views that'll not sit right with some (I hope not all) people, but the draft, FA signing period, and trades that should be made; the Stan Van Gundy show is sure to have this site buzzing. Enjoy the coming summer y'all.

[Sebastian]

I can go with this hire, today, but will watch closely going forward. I remember Bower, as the Interim Head Coach of the NO Hornets, think it was after Byron Scott was fired. He always seemed to be very engaged. He has GM experience. Some may not be overly inspired with his analytic tongue, but the dude is a NBA gangster, just like SVG. Together, these guys will be able to talk to players, agents, and fans with the proper posture and preparedness unlike WE have seen in quite some time.

There's an air of accountable that is developing at Championship Dive.

[WTF]

Here's my view on who's a real Piston.

1. A real Piston is DRAFTED by us and knows no other team! Knight was a true Piston, Monroe, Drummond, KCP, Singler, Siva are true Pistons! Zeke, Joe, Rodman, Salley, Prince, the list goes on, they were born Pistons through the draft so to speak!

2. Players that EARNED their way into being Pistons! That group is led by greats like Chauncey, RIP, Sheed & Ben, you get the picture.

Having Piston type DNA doesn't make you a Piston, but I do admit the Josh does have a lot of what I want in a Pistons, even though I wish he was a bit more basketball smarter!

Guys like CV will never be real Pistons in my mind, but I know that I could accept josh without any problem if he could just play right, or should I say get coached right... sort of inter-related!

So using the above, IMO, and I'm only one person, Josh doesn't yet qualify for me as a true Piston, and my attachment to him is rather loose, meaning that if he stays of goes, the impact is the same... none!

Oracle, so you're saying as long as you were drafted by the Pistons that makes you a Pistons?  I guess that's one way to look at it but I disagree because I think it means a little more than just being drafted.  For me it's about that persona of toughness, intelligence, heart and will that's always been at trait of the team something that even our Teal Year Teams were capable of its the DNA.  IMO Josh has these things already he has that edge about himself he has that nasty streak he carries that DNA.  

Sebastian, I don't think Oracle intentionally left Stuckey out, because he didn't mention Prince, Affalo, Maxiell, Darko, Cleaves, Hunter, Houston and a ton of others that falls under the rule of being a Pistons by default of the being drafted.  

If Andre had that DNA we wouldn't be complaining about his rim protecting because he would be whacking those tiny guards at the rim like flies. When might be moaning about the fouls he'll likely be getting but he's far to passive for a man-child with the physical gift he has to be dominate at the center position. He needs to summon his inter Ben Wallace DNA if he has it.

If Moose had that DNA we wouldn't be complaining about his defense and mid-range because there would be no hesitation or second thought to take that 10-15 footer he would either be delivering one of those Laimbeer daggers, or one of those soft baseline 10ft attempts like Edwards.  He weaknesses as a defender would be compensated by intelligence and hustle.  Moose needs to channel his inter Laimbeer DNA if he has it.

If Jennings had that DNA we wouldn't moan about his shot selection nor his ability to run a team.  His shot attempts would be as deliberate as Chauncey and his leadership would be a strong as Zekes and his tactical decision making would be on par with Chauncey's.  His will to take over a game in clutch moments would be with the same desire of Zeke will not to fail.  Jennings need to channel all the PG of Pistons Past  Bing, Zeke, Hunter, Chauncey, he needs a little of all these players in his game especially the peskiness of Hunters ability to disrupt the flow of a game.

IMO Josh has the DNA of Rodman, Sheed, Big Nasty, Mahorn, and Salley, he just needs to be controlled and directed properly.

PLEASE TRADE JOSH SMITH NOW!!!!

[Sebastian]

Here's my view on who's a real Piston.

1. A real Piston is DRAFTED by us and knows no other team! Knight was a true Piston, Monroe, Drummond, KCP, Singler, Siva are true Pistons! Zeke, Joe, Rodman, Salley, Prince, the list goes on, they were born Pistons through the draft so to speak!

2. Players that EARNED their way into being Pistons! That group is led by greats like Chauncey, RIP, Sheed & Ben, you get the picture.

Having Piston type DNA doesn't make you a Piston, but I do admit the Josh does have a lot of what I want in a Pistons, even though I wish he was a bit more basketball smarter!

Guys like CV will never be real Pistons in my mind, but I know that I could accept josh without any problem if he could just play right, or should I say get coached right... sort of inter-related!

So using the above, IMO, and I'm only one person, Josh doesn't yet qualify for me as a true Piston, and my attachment to him is rather loose, meaning that if he stays of goes, the impact is the same... none!

Oracle, did you intentionally leave out my boy, Stuckey, as a Piston?

Just my opinion but, Stuckey is a true Piston, too. The dude has toiled in the Motor City his entire career. He has missed games due to injury, but he is a tough dude. He's played injured more times than not. He's had to endure all of the sh!t that has taken place at the Palace all of his career, yet averaging 13 pts/4 ast/3 rbs, as last year he may have found perhaps his true calling as a 6th-man.

And, everybody knows that Stuckey has been a good guy in the community. I bet you if you ask true Pistons fan and folks in Detroit about Stuckey that their reaction would be favorable; somewhere near Stuckey's career FT% (83%).

[Sebastian]

""Pistons receive Alex Len, Channing Frye, and Markieff Morris for Josh Smith and 2016 first round pick"

BUT YOU CAN FORGET THAT FIRST ROUND PICK!! Not going to happen!

PHX is not going to trade away any 1 of the twins. Team chemistry is too good to bring in A chemistry killer like Josh Smith.

Josh need to go to A veteran team where he has to fall in line. If Josh is your team leader then you're in big time trouble!  Spurs, Chicago, Dallas, Miami, Brooklyn, OK City. These are the only type of teams Smith should be playing on.

OK City has two first round picks this year. See if they will give up A draft pick and K.Perkins for Josh Smith or J.Lame and Perkins.

Brooklyn might not want KG anymore. He making 12 Million next season. How about him and A throw in like Marquis Teague. Detroit can make it work.

Dallas has major cap room. Give me A few second round picks, your first round pick and A shooter like Wayne Ellington.

Chicago. Give me C.Boozer for Smith and I will include Will Bynum or T.Mitchell to make you feel good about the deal.

spurs. Give me Corey Joseph your 2014 first round pick and you can have Smith.

With B.Jennings I would call the Ny Knicks and The Pacers. I want A sign And trade of E.Turner from Indiana.

Here is my pitch to Phil Jackson. I will take Andrea Bargnani and Ray Felton off your hands. You can have Smith but you have to take B.Jennings or Will Bynum. Something like that.

Phillip has put forward some interesting trade scenarios involving Josh and B. Jennings, all of which in my opinion are plausible.

While watching the Pacers during these playoffs, I have even said that it is the team where Jennings would be best cast, maybe even Larry Legend can see the value in adding Jennings to their inept, non-ballhandling roster. And, Jennings' contract is only $7.5/2 years.

Also, if SVG hires Stu Jackson then the two of these guys are going to construct a better defined roster. Hiring Stu Jackson, as the GM or whatever his title would be would be major.

The lost of OUR Lottery pick is going to force SVG to have to pull a couple of rabbits from out of his hat.

[Phil-Good]

""Pistons receive Alex Len, Channing Frye, and Markieff Morris for Josh Smith and 2016 first round pick"

BUT YOU CAN FORGET THAT FIRST ROUND PICK!! Not going to happen!

PHX is not going to trade away any 1 of the twins. Team chemistry is too good to bring in A chemistry killer like Josh Smith.

Josh need to go to A veteran team where he has to fall in line. If Josh is your team leader then you're in big time trouble! Spurs, Chicago, Dallas, Miami, Brooklyn, OK City. These are the only type of teams Smith should be playing on.

OK City has two first round picks this year. See if they will give up A draft pick and K.Perkins for Josh Smith or J.Lame and Perkins.

Brooklyn might not want KG anymore. He making 12 Million next season. How about him and A throw in like Marquis Teague. Detroit can make it work.

Dallas has major cap room. Give me A few second round picks, your first round pick and A shooter like Wayne Ellington.

Chicago. Give me C.Boozer for Smith and I will include Will Bynum or T.Mitchell to make you feel good about the deal.

spurs. Give me Corey Joseph your 2014 first round pick and you can have Smith.

With B.Jennings I would call the Ny Knicks and The Pacers. I want A sign And trade of E.Turner from Indiana.

Here is my pitch to Phil Jackson. I will take Andrea Bargnani and Ray Felton off your hands. You can have Smith but you have to take B.Jennings or Will Bynum. Something like that.

[Oracle]

Here's my view on who's a real Piston.

1. A real Piston is DRAFTED by us and knows no other team! Knight was a true Piston, Monroe, Drummond, KCP, Singler, Siva are true Pistons! Zeke, Joe, Rodman, Salley, Prince, the list goes on, they were born Pistons through the draft so to speak!

2. Players that EARNED their way into being Pistons! That group is led by greats like Chauncey, RIP, Sheed & Ben, you get the picture.

Having Piston type DNA doesn't make you a Piston, but I do admit the Josh does have a lot of what I want in a Pistons, even though I wish he was a bit more basketball smarter!

Guys like CV will never be real Pistons in my mind, but I know that I could accept josh without any problem if he could just play right, or should I say get coached right... sort of inter-related!

So using the above, IMO, and I'm only one person, Josh doesn't yet qualify for me as a true Piston, and my attachment to him is rather loose, meaning that if he stays of goes, the impact is the same... none!

[WTF]

Wise, I get that Josh is being piled on, and it's not totally fair, but you get that when you're the highest paid player.

What I don't get is why you care so much, it's not like he's been a Piston for that long, so I can see why others could care a lot less!

There's a bunch of players that are getting a raw deal, or have gotten a raw deal, and a lot of them are true Pistons, Josh so far is a one year rental, so I'm struggling to understand why you pick Josh's cause over the many others that get screwed?

Because I've was always a fan of Josh when he played in Atlanta and always wanted to see him in a Pistons uniform.  It's not an uncommon thing that I take up and defend those I feel wrongly treated or viewed.  I defended Flip if you remembered, I defended Charlie V, I defend Stuckey and I defended Kwame as well so it shouldn't be too shocking that I'm defending Josh.  

True Pistons? what is that? Sometimes we talk about that Pistons DNA and who better on the team reflects that better than Josh does.  Josh does dumb things but so did Sheed, and Rodman,  and Josh has a little of both these guys in him but we excused their mistakes because they have NBA Champion attached to their careers.    

Who on this roster is getting a raw deal? Many are receiving a pass from fans and media more times than not while they're finding everything wrong to say about Josh.  If it was true I would say a word to defend Josh, but it's the same sh!t we got with Charlie V and the unrealistic expectation well the expectation gets lowered for everyone else.

Whatever Josh does it will never be good enough and that's really sad.  Josh is just as much a Pistons as any of the other players on this team and carry more of that DNA.  Monroe, Stuckey, Charlie, and Bynum spent the last 4-5 seasons on sh!t teams what really are they representing as far as the team goes.  I have 5 Pistons jersey (Dumars, Mahorn, Rodman, Chauncey and now Josh) There's a reason why I don't sport any other current player jersey.

[Oracle]

Wise, I get that Josh is being piled on, and it's not totally fair, but you get that when you're the highest paid player.

What I don't get is why you care so much, it's not like he's been a Piston for that long, so I can see why others could care a lot less!

There's a bunch of players that are getting a raw deal, or have gotten a raw deal, and a lot of them are true Pistons, Josh so far is a one year rental, so I'm struggling to understand why you pick Josh's cause over the many others that get screwed?

[WTF]

Ben Wallace didn't react like Josh when he was in a bad situation. - Don

Josh isn't Ben Wallace he's Josh Smith    You know some of the sh!t you is just insane their situations don't equate you can't speak on how either of these players should have handle a situation.   But sense you brought up Mr. Wallace lets compare a few things starting with the talent level of players on the teams.  

1. How many dummies did Ben Wallace play with? How many does Josh play with based on you assessment of the team?
2. How many coaches did he beef with?  Here I'll help you with this one that would be LB, Flip, and Kuester. Josh wasn't beefing with Mo or John.
3. Why is it you find it okay that Ben didn't have to shoot better FT's?  News Flash there was a reason why CB won Finals MVP

Screw Big Ben passion and work ethics he had no choice but to work harder than everyone else, he was a undrafted and on his third team that he wasn't even sure he would make.  Josh wasn't signed to be the leader, Josh wasn't signed to be the next Big Ben either but Josh plays with a passion as equal to Big Ben.   Now the rest of the team doesn't play with passion but in your mind that's Josh fault?   He makes more money so he should lead the team.

Ben played great defense and that's it so where were these great work ethics when it came to improving his game, did he develop a mid range game, learn a new post move, or become a great passer and increase his field goal percentage?  I'm sure if he had improved he offense just a tiny bit it might have made things easier on the rest of the team and gave LB and Flip more option with the offense.  

Don you were so quick to jump on Rasheed but then you decide to kiss the over glorified ass of Ben.  Ben was a great leader remember the mutiny? I'm sure you do?  How many times has he refused to go into a game and then we all wonder why Stuckey had the nerve to do it as well. Must be something to the theory of leading by example.  

Now I don't know this to be the case or not, but could certainly understand if it was because I've suspected it.   Josh is on a new team and it should be something he's pumped about but he can't be because his dad is in a hospital bed seriously ill in another city so he's obviously worried not being there at home still playing for the Hawks and closer to his family.   Then when the first opportunity comes for him to spend time with his dad in the hospital well we all know how that dumb sh!t went.   So here he is playing with all these dumb ass players as you call them who has no heart, gives **** effort and he speaks on it publically and get benched again for saying the team plays soft.   So lets tally it up 1. Sick Dad, 2. Dumb ass team mates. 3. A coach fu@king with him,  and  4. soft ass team mates who cries when told they're soft.  If Josh gave up on the team and season who can blame him, apparently Chauncey had his back and that validates most of what I just stated.  

There's no comparing of situations and that was a messed up thing to say.  Josh father attended every single home game he played with the Hawks and now he's in a new city playing and its complicated with the illness of his father.  Maybe that impacted his play on the court but who are you or anyone to say how he should react to it. Maybe he loved his father more than he love playing, maybe he love his father more than Ben love his mom? but that's not for any of us judge.  One thing was clear he wasn't supported by his team mates or his coach in his struggles, nor by the fans of the team that constantly find fault with him where there is none.  

PLEASE TRADE JOSH SMITH

[Sparma]

I'm attached enough to find the following a terrible trade idea (passed on at Life on Dumars, inspired (I think) by Ric Bucher): "Pistons receive Alex Len, Channing Frye, and Markieff Morris for Josh Smith and 2016 first round pick — The deal is still off by about two million dollars, but the Suns could pick up that difference."

Part of the rationale is that the Pistons should be willing to give up a 1st rounder to rid themselves of a bad contract. I hope never to relive that scenario again. I also hope that SVG will have the good sense to find less destructive means of reshaping the roster.

[cool breeze]

Yes, it may have kept us from a second championship.  And it's a bad play by Sheed, but I see no Youtube evidence of Sheed yapping at an official.  He just seems to want to double up (a strategy that helped making Detroit's D great that year), but then retreats and gets caught in between, a fatal mistake against Big Shot Bob.  I'd managed not to look back at that play until now, Don!

Drummond comments as follows: “He’s definitely been a big help for me. He’s taught me a lot. My back-to-the-basket game is getting better. I’ve learned a lot of moves that before, I wasn’t doing. … I did a drop-step spin move into a layup. I haven’t done that, ever. It’s working on things like that, that get me really excited."  

”

The bottom line for me is that I have never trusted Rasheed Wallace. As a player he was a guy could never control his emotions and would cause his teammates to lose focus because he had to have grudge battles with the officials. As a person who loves to watch sports of all kinds, it was irritating for me to watch Rasheed perform at times. He did as he pleased not caring about his teammates. And he was yapping at the officials when Robert Horry hit that 3 point shot which cost Detroit one of their most important games in Piston history. Then there were the behavior issues he had off the court at Portland. 

Was he a good candidate for coaching? According to the young Drummond he was a big help and one cannot deny something coming from a current player. Has Rasheed changed? This is a great story if that is true. If he now wants to be a good role model for young players and can make an impact on them by telling them about the consequences of his own mistakes, then it is a shame that he has become a victim of another head coaching change. If he is the same old Sheed, then perhaps for the good of team chemistry, Van Gundy has made the correct decision. It would be great to get the real story here. In the end, Stan Van Gundy will be up against the wall trying to coach a horrible team. He must have a staff that he can trust with his life.

Sparma sorry I brought that play up again. It still lingers for me much like the Zeke pass on the side out of bounds that gave Boston that game Detroit had in their pocket. That just show how human we all are. I still thought that Zeke could do not wrong even after that bad play. I knew that Zeke would take that mistake and use it for fuel the following season. 

This leads me to the discussion relating to Smith and other current players on the roster. I have maybe two or three players I pull for to have good fortune because you need some luck or breaks along with hard work and God given talent to succeed in the NBA. But my feelings are not real strong for any of the players right now. It seemed like last season most of the players didn't mind getting their butts kicked. Remember when Detroit had that bad season when they wore those teal uniforms? Then Ben Wallace arrived and things changed for the better. He was a guy who gave it all on the court. We could all see it. He was not playing mental games with management or the coaching staff. Ben was just playing with guts and not much more. That is why I am not bonded with the Pistons right now. We do not have one player who is exciting to watch. And that includes the highly paid Josh Smith. Some of you fans must not have tuned into the games in January, Feb or March. Many of those games involved first quarter tanking. Josh looked like he was sleeping. Maybe he just realized that there was no chance to win considering the lack of talent on the roster so he wasn't going to give too much. Josh can play defense. Few of his teammates had a clue especially the two big men everyone was talking about. He knew the score but he failed to lead.  Ben Wallace didn't react like Josh when he was in a bad situation. He still brought everything he had and tried to improve. Right now fans shouldn't get so excited about trading this player or that player. It really makes no difference to me if all of them are traded including Drummond. Look our players shot free throws far worse than any roster in the league last season. I have never seen a group of men on one team that were that bad. Just basic free throw shooting seemed impossible for our players and that included Josh Smith who decided to stand one foot behind the free throw line to make it even harder to make his shots. There have been some really great players who never could figure out free throw shooting including Ben Wallace. But Ben had heart and showed that he really cared about the game. Going forward how will the Pistons be any better next season without mass change when you just look at one thing like free throw shooting? Are some of you fans who love Josh Smith, Monroe, or Drummond sure that those guys are practicing free throw shooting over the summer and will turn those bad stats upside down? Another thing our players have in common is that they are all guilty of bad decision making on both offense and defense. I have never seen so many dumb bonehead basketball plays in one season by any team like last season's team. And they all might be back! That is what we should be worried about.

[WTF]

DX, yes many of those rah rahing a trade of Smith are the same ones who defending Joe tooth and nails when his ass should have been fired back in 06, these are the same one's who likely supported replacing CB with Stuckey, and the firing of Flip. The trend here is that they were often of the wrong side of things with their support. It's the same pattern of this idea of hope, they hope Joe could do it again, they hope Stuckey could, they hope Curry could right along with the one that hired him. Now they hope that Moose mid-range and defense will transform to just being respectable. But in order for this to happen Josh Smith must be scapegoated a tactic they learned from their falling GM. man some of these same folks turned on Rip, then turned on CB and they turned on Big Ben because he wanted the same dollars some are so willing to toss at Monroe now. When did Big Ben ever take 5 or 6 games off?

First you make up sh!t, then you apply different rules, then you scapegoat them. We seen enough! and your right many are hoping SVG fail because he wasn't their choice.

PLEASE TRADE JOSH NOW!

[WTF]

Exactly DX, Now this is the DX I know   

Oracle, I hear you on the age thing but it still doesn't explain why this blame goes to Josh. I could understand if his mistakes specifically lead to all the losses but it doesn't and the team certainly don't win half the games they did without him. While Drummond should IMO be excused with the age consideration this should not be applied to Monroe or Jennings.

DX, it has gotten old and I really do wish they trade him at this point. It's is nothing worse than reading rather it's on this forum or in the article of dumb talking heads all the fabrication of un-trues about this kid for reason other than many folks don't like him. Joe is a dumb ass but Josh was worth every penny of the money he received in his contract. I know you didn't like Charlie V but I assure you had he been used properly and played to his talents you would feel different, and it's almost the same thing with Josh except worse with Josh. Somehow Josh is the villain because he isn't a SF, but clearly the better PF.

As I've said countless times even in all my rants to trade Moose I think he's a talented player. The only difference with Moose at center and at PF is what players been kicking on his ass for 4 seasons and this past seasons it been PF. As hard as it was either Josh and Monroe adjusting to new position I didn't see Josh getting his whipped every freaking game by the opposing SF.

Man I just tired of all the made up stuff and just want to see Josh traded, lets just keep Monroe at PF and move on from there. I don't mind different opinions and a honest debate on the subject of Josh but it's insane. It's like he suppose to be perfect all the time and if not he's the reason the team loss regard to the facts showing it was likely the other three players.

[deusXango]

"In away I'm kind of hoping Josh gets traded because he deserves better than he gets from fans and that you all get your wish of hoping Moose becomes consistent, that he finally figure out how to hit beyond 5 feet, that he magically becomes a defensive wizard for the next 5 seasons at a Max Deal. Don't get me wrong I think Moose is a very talented center, but we already have one named Andre who IMO will likely be better. So please let us trade Josh at first chance.

DX I thought we were down for the Josh cause?"-Wise Fan

Wise, I'm still a believer that Josh Smith was a sound signing and he's one of the top three players on this team (order doesn't matter), but the groundswell of dissenters have gotten on my last nerve, and I would imagine Josh is tired of the Detroit "fans." I can't believe that so many local fans got in lockstep with what the national media writers were saying about Josh...Detroit haters all. When you state over and over the meaningful talents this man brings to the team and continue hear sh!t like how Monroe's youth somehow tilts the scales of reason against Smith, well, WTF?! For all that feel he should be gone in order for this franchise to move forward, God bless 'em...they're probably some of the same people who were crying for Joe to blow up the team because we couldn't get past the ECF and never gave a thought to what moves could be made to win another championship, but were the first to b!tch when they got their wish.

Remember there are local fans who wanted Rudy Gay (like he was Kobe or LeBron), but no one else in the NBA does. Every time a trade piece from Boston is mentioned, it's Jeff Green...why? He ain't that good. Now the flavor of the month is Parsons or Hayward, at max or near max deals, instead of playing the Big 3 the way they should have been played and giving Datome a righteous look at SF. Nooo, we'd rather sing the praises of Singler and like Sebastian has said on numerous occasions, he's an 8th or 9th man on a contending team...somehow a lot of us have become comfortable with mediocrity. We applaud the mediocre, give the dumb-asses chance after chance, and base talent on our own bias and prejudices, which don't mean a damn thing in the grand scheme, but we can sound so intellectual in knocking what would make for a better team. I'm tired of defending my views, like there's someone out there who's views are more valid than mine, and am willing to see how this whole new regime plays out.

There's jealousy over how much Josh Smith was signed for, and there are those who are silently intimidated by his natural scowl...none of that takes into account how many career shots he's blocked from his position (and only 28!), how he fills up a stat sheet (a hell of a feat for someone with a low b-ball I.Q.) or minimize the fact he was playing out of position on a brand new team, with a group of sh!t PG's. Now it's making sense to start two centers and bring a defensive PF off the bench (if we keep Smith) which is a direct assault on the integrity of SVG's coaching abilities, who many are predicting his failure as both coach and head of basketball operations...too much money (like Smith) and too much power. Again, the national Detroit hating media and local fans picking up on it...am I the only one who believes that if you side with my enemy, you my enemy too? I'm tired of contesting with people who are against the betterment of Detroit (in any form or fashion) and fall back on glib statements that are no more than distractions from the facts...you don't want to use imagination, but would rather have someone from afar think for you.

Wise, I ain't gave up on Josh and I am still down for the cause, but the war of words has been won...overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

[Oracle]

Wise, I too was floored by DX's complete 180 on Josh!

I've seen people change their minds, but I got whiplash from that one, he sounded like someone that NEVER supported Josh in anything from day one... Wow!

Having said that, you are obviously missing a life lesson!

In life, we have different rules for children that are learning vs grown ass men!

In basketball, you rarely equate 4 year players with 10 year vets, so yes, Josh is measured by a different yardstick, and quite frankly he comes up a hell of a lot short!

As you can see from my post, I'm not totally against Josh if we can't trade him, I just think he's the logical one to get rid of, but not more than Jennings!

I'd rather have Josh than Jennings, because you're right, Jennings hurts us a LOT more, I don't care if he's young!

[WTF]

The FA signings of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva were backbreakers for this franchise (the cost of dumping Gordon is still being paid and the shame of allowing CV to rightfully rot on the bench for $8.5 million a year was embarrassing), now we're faced with, IMHO, a more damaging couple of FA signings by our departed GM...there is no redemption period necessary to be tried for Smith and Jennings! As long as they're on our roster, they will be played for extended minutes and that's a minute too long...it won't take much for either one to f#ck up a close game; they have that type talent too. Let's make a clean sweep of last years cursed FA signings and move on...allow SVG to bring in the players he's comfortable with, instead of trying to coach up the players Joe signed out of ignorance, fear, and desperation. As long as the signings of Joe Dumars are associated with the locker room, we'll be cursed on the playing floor. Buyout Bynum and Billups!

DX, what shocking comments coming from a once proud supporter of Josh Smith.

I have asked this question countless times and always get some form of avoidance or deflecting comments to the consistent claims that Josh play loses games for us. Lets try asking again   

Q1. How many games were there that one can specifically contribute to the play of Josh?
Q2. How many games were there that one can specifically contribute to the play of Moose?
Q3. How many games were there that one can specifically contribute to the play of Brandon?
Q4. How many games were there that one can specifically contribute to the play of Andre?

You see I have to keep asking this because it seems that it's perfectly okay that the flaws of other team members are completely acceptable but some how only Josh's seem to matter the most. Let really examine what we saw most of the season and remove hate and hope out of the equation just to try something different.

1. I really can't say there were a game that Josh sh!t shooting was a direct cause of a single loss. I'm won't sit here a and say that Josh shooting wasn't horrendous. I hear things on this forum from many of my fellow posters things such as Josh is a beast, Josh is the better PF, Josh has an overall better game, that Josh is the teams best defender, that Josh is more of a Stretch 4 than Moose, Josh is better from 10 feet out than any big on the team.

2. While its completely understandable to be in awe of the potential of both Drummond and Monroe both have likely loss more games for the team than Josh has. Now based on all the above comments about Josh, and all the obvious flaws of both Monroe and Drummond especially those concerning Greg Monroe the conclusion is get rid of Josh and his 14 million a year contract and lets give that to Monroe based on the premise he might actually give a sh!t and become consistent both with his defense and mid-range. The argument is Moose is 3 years younger which means his 3 years less experience and my have already peaked.

3. Jennings on the other hand has loss plenty of games for the team because it's easily to point out his inability to run the team, its obvious that he isn't very good defensively, his shots are clearly more ill-advised than Josh's attempts IMO though some of you may argue that. But my point is that collectively Andre, Greg and Brandon share larger blame and claim to the majority of losses for the team so why is it everyone seeks out Josh as if he's the disease that's killing this team.

4. Why is it that Andre Drummond sh!t rim protection gets no blame?, why is that every scrub to starting PF whipping on Moose ass gets no blame? Why is that Brandon sh!t floor leadership gets some blame but not much?

In away I'm kind of hoping Josh gets traded because he deserves better than he gets from fans and that you all get your wish of hoping Moose becomes consistent, that he finally figure out how to hit beyond 5 feet, that he magically becomes a defensive wizard for the next 5 seasons at a Max Deal. Don't get me wrong I think Moose is a very talented center, but we already have one named Andre who IMO will likely be better. So please let us trade Josh at first chance.

DX I thought we were down for the Josh cause?

[deusXango]

The FA signings of Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva were backbreakers for this franchise (the cost of dumping Gordon is still being paid and the shame of allowing CV to rightfully rot on the bench for $8.5 million a year was embarrassing), now we're faced with, IMHO, a more damaging couple of FA signings by our departed GM...there is no redemption period necessary to be tried for Smith and Jennings! As long as they're on our roster, they will be played for extended minutes and that's a minute too long...it won't take much for either one to f#ck up a close game; they have that type talent too. Let's make a clean sweep of last years cursed FA signings and move on...allow SVG to bring in the players he's comfortable with, instead of trying to coach up the players Joe signed out of ignorance, fear, and desperation. As long as the signings of Joe Dumars are associated with the locker room, we'll be cursed on the playing floor. Buyout Bynum and Billups!

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