Trade Proposal

[Murph]

Griffin and Rose to Charlotte for Nicholas Batum's and Cody Zeller's expiring contracts.

We could cut Batum, and Zeller could start at center for a year.

That would make us really, really bad....bad enough to land a top 3 pick next year.

[deusXango]

With Reggie Jacksons buyout (which should've come first) and Josh Smith's stretch contract ending, and allowing (gasp!) Langston Galloway to walk, couldn't the Pistons have tolerated Drummond picking up his option here? It's not beyond reason the team re-signing Christian Wood for 3-4 years and going into FA, without any dispensable market value (healthy) players, Troy Weaver could've had a better than average bargaining chip with Drummond. This is a team with only one draft pick to fill many holes. I'm not a fan of the "Invisible Man", Tony Snell, nor do I see any great value in John Henson/Brandon Knight in restoring the Pistons to greatness...I can't honestly see the team trading them for anyone of value and I hope that whatever's done don't leave us mired in mediocrity for the next 4-5 years! I'm getting too old to continue playing the waiting game.

Coach Dwane Casey keeps getting roses thrown at his feet and receiving accolades for being such a fine coach but, he hasn't shown me that he deserves that. He never reigned Drummond in, "managed" Rose's minutes, which was unnecessary, utilized Galloway too much (gave him a green light), a short, no defense playing SG/SF, and his development of Doumbouya and Mykhailiuk is suspect at best. Hopefully he won't have too much of Weaver's ear, if he remains head coach...GM's usually want their own coach on board. How many people will Weaver have to answer to and please? He's not puppet material!

I'd love for LaMelo to become a Piston and if some how Onyeka Okongwu can be brought on board, this would be "the miracle draft" for me. Torches and pitchforks.

[Sparma]

Don: "My first hope is that he finds a new home for Griffin and Rose and goes all in on a rebuild. Anyone have any thoughts on how many draft picks the pistons might get? Maybe you trade experts can provide some thoughts on how we might work a deal with Chicago."

The best trade I've seen would have Rose going to Chicago for a solid player in Tomas Satoransky AND a first rounder. Detroit should take that in a second, but I can't imagine that offer being made. Maybe Satoransky and a second rounder, or a first rounder along with the worst matching contract Chicago finds. Trouble is, Rose doesn't earn that much, just under the league average, so the other team can't be helped much in a salary dump. And Chicago's 1st rounder would be way to good to give up for a guy on his final year. Still, my guess is that trading Rose could get a return of a bad contract & a late (or delayed) first rounder, or a high second rounder. Given the state of the Pistons' roster, I'd do that. Can't see much of a return for Griffin at all unless he's outstanding next year or on an expiring deal the next season.

Agreed Don, let's all strive to be good persons! I have enough liberalness in me to be struck by structural, systematic, problems, but the traditionalist in me still believes that societal change ordinarily begins by changing ourselves, a devilish difficult feat.

[deusXango]

Can we please stop signing mediocre free agents to bad contracts?  These guys turn into liabilities the minute they are signed.  We gave away Drummond so we could reduce the payroll.  So why spend that $30 million on a bunch of stiffs, and spend the rest of their contracts trying to unload them?  

You know who they are, guys like Jon Leuer, Charlie Villanueva, Ben Gordon, Josh Smith, Langston Galloway and Markieff Morris.  

When you load up your roster with these over-paid stiffs, it makes it impossible to retain your own free agents when their contracts come due, and then you have to let them walk away for nothing, like Drummond, KCP and Greg Monroe.  It's a never ending cycle and it's short sighted.

I'd much rather see the Pistons go into the season with the lowest payroll possible, lose as many games as possible, move up on the draft board for next year, and have money available when our own guys, like Wood, Kennard, Svi and Brown need to get paid.

We need to build a culture on this team from within.  We need to draft well, develop our young players and then retain them by paying them.  We need to draft players with the idea that they will be Pistons for life.  We need to build a family culture on the team where the players have chemistry and play together for years, not a business culture with mercenaries coming and going.

Murph, this is a hometown sermon that needs to be repeated to the powers that be! The insanity has gone on far too long and Tom Gores is the lead nut. Now that Troy Weaver is the GM, unshackle him from the stupidity of Ed Stefanski, and let him operate until he succeeds or fail on his own. "Too many chiefs..." just doesn't work in Detroit. I'm not sold on the notion that the Pistons are just a PG away from igniting a meaningful rebuild (a 20 year old "Magic" Johnson ain't walking through the door anytime soon) and you don't rebuild with the likes of Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose, Tony Snell, and Langston Galloway taking up space on the roster and eating up clock, thus denying young talent from developing together. Trading Andre Drummond at the deadline was foolish (there I've said it) instead of waiting until seasons end. Stefanski phuqued that up and I believe with the urging of Dwayne Casey we're at least a couple of draft picks short this year (possibly a first and certainly second) all to preserve a couple of office jobs. Rebuild or stuck in mediocrity?

A weak draft? B.S.! This is a draft to aid on rebuilding with. Gores talked that sh!t about his willingness to spend money to make this team better, why not pay half of Griffins remaining contract for whomever wanted his services at $17M a year? Our superstar isn't worth a draft pick at those prices? Look at the draft and imagine what we could accomplish with two first rounders to add to Wood, Kennard, Sekou, Svi, Brown, and possibly a Louis King. We'd still have a 25 year old Drummond to bargain with and I believe the Pistons would get more than Stefanski got from Cleveland. We'd also have Rose and be in a position to re-sign Wood at a reasonable contract while removing Galloway from consideration as a re-sign candidate. I may be off track but, one thing I'll stand by, leave Troy Weaver alone and let him do his job without interference!

[Murph]

I disagree that this year's draft is weak. For our purposes, it's a very strong draft. There are 3 or 4 potential franchise PGs among the top 10. Guys with great pedigrees and outstanding experience. Guys who are big, athletic and great passers. We just need to pick the right one. If we don't eff-it up, we should end up with our franchise PG for the next 10 or 12 years.

[Murph]

Can we please stop signing mediocre free agents to bad contracts? These guys turn into liabilities the minute they are signed. We gave away Drummond so we could reduce the payroll. So why spend that $30 million on a bunch of stiffs, and spend the rest of their contracts trying to unload them?

You know who they are, guys like Jon Leuer, Charlie Villanueva, Ben Gordon, Josh Smith, Langston Galloway and Markieff Morris.

When you load up your roster with these over-paid stiffs, it makes it impossible to retain your own free agents when their contracts come due, and then you have to let them walk away for nothing, like Drummond, KCP and Greg Monroe. It's a never ending cycle and it's short sighted.

I'd much rather see the Pistons go into the season with the lowest payroll possible, lose as many games as possible, move up on the draft board for next year, and have money available when our own guys, like Wood, Kennard, Svi and Brown need to get paid.

We need to build a culture on this team from within. We need to draft well, develop our young players and then retain them by paying them. We need to draft players with the idea that they will be Pistons for life. We need to build a family culture on the team where the players have chemistry and play together for years, not a business culture with mercenaries coming and going.

[cool breeze]

I'm not a draft wonk, as Don is with his closer following of college ball.  For what it's worth, when experts say this is a relatively weak draft, I think what they mainly mean is that top (three) guys (likely Wiseman, Edwards, and Ball per Tankathon and others) aren't equal to the top guys in other years.  By the time you get to 4-8 (they go Avdija, Toppin, Hayes, Haliburton, and Okongwu), I think you're getting players roughly on par with other years, i.e., really promising but also with red flags.  

Haliburton's identified  as a good team defender, as I remember.  My concern at the NBA level would be with him as an individual defender.  For instance, no way could he defend LaMelo without help.  Still, if we end up drafting him at 5 I'll look forward to having an outstanding distance shooter, a good passer, and a smart basketball guy on board.

If you want the best defender of the top PGs on the draft boards, then you go with Halliburton.   He’s the only plus defender as rated by Draftnet.  

He’s also the only one of the top 3 who has had the benefit of NCAA coaching....for 2 years in fact.  

And the fact that he played for Iowa State leads me to believe he’s a down to earth guy who is not looking for the most glamorous place to play. So he might have a decent chance of wanting to stick around in the D and play out his career here, if all goes well.

Just saying...

Don...congratulations on selling your home and moving to a safer, more relaxed community.

Happy Fathers Day to you as well Sparma and hopefully everyone who posts on this forum have been blessed with good children. That was my Father's only request "just please be a good person".

Good to read some thoughts of others relating to Piston basketball. Troy Weaver needs to be allowed some slack by the owner's group. My first hope is that he finds a new home for Griffin and Rose and goes all in on a rebuild. Anyone have any thoughts on how many draft picks the pistons might get? Maybe you trade experts can provide some thoughts on how we might work a deal with Chicago.

Sparma i think you made a good point as others have relating to the fact that the top players listed so far are not in the caliber of talent of many other draft classes. As for Murph's imput relating to taking a look at Halburton for our pick, maybe that is not a bad idea. I like the fact that he has two years of college under his belt. What I want to see out of a point guard pick is are they a willing passer and can they think two or three plays ahead as well as holding their own or better on the defensive end. Too much emphasis has been placed on drafting point guards who are one dimensional type players meaning all they want to do is shoot the ball and have gotten away with that bad habit for their entire careers before being drafted. We need a point guard who was a key player on offense of course but if you don't have that 6th sense as to how to attack a defense in other ways such as creating plays for your teammates than there will be chemistry issues and lots of loses. Nico Mannion started out on fire last season. He then had 3 sub par shooting games in a row as the season wore on and it appears he will pay a price in this draft because of that. What Nico does bring to a team is court vision and the ability to create plays for other players even if his jump shot is off. He also has a good burst of speed and change of pace when driving in the paint. Nico got a lot out of his lone season as a college player because every team put two players on him to shut him down. Is Halburton better than Mannion? I have no idea but this backs up Sparma's thoughts on this draft.

I am still enthused with the idea of trading our pick for 2 or 3 picks even future picks as long as we do get 1 pick. I think the players available who are listed after the top 8 through the first round and into the 2nd round are on a par with the the players listed on the top 10. All of the top 5 players listed on NBADRAFTNET appear to be players who might struggle to make a rotation next season. I believe that players like Halburton, Mannion, Zeke Naaji will make an NBA rotation on a lot of teams next season. They are fundamentally sound players who are not just shooting specialists but showed that they can shoot the ball under pressure and make those shots. I have never seen Ball play in a real game. But I saw his older brother play a lot at UCLA and suspected that he was way over rated. He struggled playing defense and forced a lot of passes and shots unlike other point guards he played against in the PAC12.

I keep harping on the value of Zeke Naaji because he is not just the typical big man who over powers his college competition. Zeke was the strongest player on his team and actually bench pressed more weight than Ayton at Arizona. He is not only physically gifted but is an exceptionally quick learner who never makes the same mistake twice. If you want a key rebound, he gets it. He can handle a double team well. His effort on defense was really good considering he was a freshman. I am amazed that he is not in the top 5 of this draft. Motivated, extremely intelligent on the hardcourt and in the classroom, agile, fast from baseline to baseline and he is from Minnesota so cold weather won't bother him. This is just a hunch on my part and I could be wrong as the NBA game is unique. But I would bet on him before any of the players listed in the top 5.

Payton Pritchard from Oregon is one of the best point guards that I have seen in many years. Watching this guy kick ass and take names year after year in college was no fluke. His team wins basketball games and he has always had a lot to do with making winning plays either on offense or defense. It is incredible how the so called experts have ranked him so low. What do you have to do to get respect? Meanwhile hotdog players are listed at the top of the draft. It makes no sense. Could it be that the draft has become corrupt where player agents are controlling how players are rated? I hope this new GM does his homework and I have confidence that he is someone who actually does work hard at his job and will make the right call. No more long shots like last season please.

[Sparma]

I'm not a draft wonk, as Don is with his closer following of college ball. For what it's worth, when experts say this is a relatively weak draft, I think what they mainly mean is that top (three) guys (likely Wiseman, Edwards, and Ball per Tankathon and others) aren't equal to the top guys in other years. By the time you get to 4-8 (they go Avdija, Toppin, Hayes, Haliburton, and Okongwu), I think you're getting players roughly on par with other years, i.e., really promising but also with red flags.

Haliburton's identified as a good team defender, as I remember. My concern at the NBA level would be with him as an individual defender. For instance, no way could he defend LaMelo without help. Still, if we end up drafting him at 5 I'll look forward to having an outstanding distance shooter, a good passer, and a smart basketball guy on board.

If you want the best defender of the top PGs on the draft boards, then you go with Halliburton.   He’s the only plus defender as rated by Draftnet.  

He’s also the only one of the top 3 who has had the benefit of NCAA coaching....for 2 years in fact.  

And the fact that he played for Iowa State leads me to believe he’s a down to earth guy who is not looking for the most glamorous place to play. So he might have a decent chance of wanting to stick around in the D and play out his career here, if all goes well.

Just saying...

Don...congratulations on selling your home and moving to a safer, more relaxed community.

[Murph]

If you want the best defender of the top PGs on the draft boards, then you go with Halliburton. He’s the only plus defender as rated by Draftnet.

He’s also the only one of the top 3 who has had the benefit of NCAA coaching....for 2 years in fact.

And the fact that he played for Iowa State leads me to believe he’s a down to earth guy who is not looking for the most glamorous place to play. So he might have a decent chance of wanting to stick around in the D and play out his career here, if all goes well.

Just saying...

Don...congratulations on selling your home and moving to a safer, more relaxed community.

[Sparma]

Let the Troy Weaver begin. I know let about him, but mlive runs an informative article about him. I'm hopeful he'll bring to Piston management something we haven't seen in quite a while: a consistent commitment to a long-term vision. Maybe Stefanski had that personally, but he always struck me as ready to cave to Gores' short term demands. Maybe, just maybe, Weaver gets to run with the kind of approach taken in OKC. That'd be a good model for Detroit, which faces similar challenges in recruiting and retaining players.

Lots of uncertainty in what sounds like a weak draft, but I'd be happy with Killian Hayes at #5 (for me behind LaMelo and ahead of Haliburton, as discussed earlier). I'm not comparing Hayes to these guys, Cool, but LeBron, Moses, and Kobe establish that playing in college isn't a necessary condition for NBA excellence, however valuable that often is.

Just checked this guy out on several sites. Perhaps NBADRAFTNET provides the most information. He is a point guard with size. When you read the positives and then the long list of negatives, it appears my analysis of this draft is correct. I can't get excited about any of the top 10 picks listed on most draft boards. Defects relating to Hayes includes his cavalier attitude on playing defense. You never know how much energy he will give a coach on that part of basketball. On most division 1 programs, coaches will not play you if you do not show interest while playing defense. And it is also important to show improvement if you are a freshman relating to the amount of playing time you get. The experts reports that Hayes does not have elite lateral movement or quickness. Looks like he has a higher IQ on offense but you also need to have a high IQ on defense if you expect to help your team win and it isn't about getting stats as to why you play excluding the money of course.

This time around I hope the Pistons brain trust shows some interest in drafting a player who has proven himself on both ends of the floor in a good college program. Bad habits are acquired if you are young and play overseas. Playing in college for a hard nosed coach means a lot to me if you can survive and excel with that experience. I hope we get a pick where there is less gambling while trying to hit a home run with a long shot like Dumars did with Darko. I know there is a lot of wishing going on relating to somehow drafting Ball. But have you thought that through? Does he want to play in Detroit and will he sign a 2nd contract if he is a superstar? Was he afraid to play one year in a good USA college program for fear some of his defects might surface? Is he a team orientated player? Isiah Thomas was always a team first player even though he was a star player in his own right. I want that type of player if Detroit keeps the pick. My preference is to trade the pick especially if we get lucky with the ping pong balls. However, perhaps getting a top 2 or 3 pick might not be worth that much this year. Go Pistons? I hope we get to see them play next season. Everyone stay healthy and avoid the China Virus.

[cool breeze]

Just checked this guy out on several sites. Perhaps NBADRAFTNET provides the most information. He is a point guard with size. When you read the positives and then the long list of negatives, it appears my analysis of this draft is correct. I can't get excited about any of the top 10 picks listed on most draft boards. Defects relating to Hayes includes his cavalier attitude on playing defense. You never know how much energy he will give a coach on that part of basketball. On most division 1 programs, coaches will not play you if you do not show interest while playing defense. And it is also important to show improvement if you are a freshman relating to the amount of playing time you get. The experts reports that Hayes does not have elite lateral movement or quickness. Looks like he has a higher IQ on offense but you also need to have a high IQ on defense if you expect to help your team win and it isn't about getting stats as to why you play excluding the money of course.

This time around I hope the Pistons brain trust shows some interest in drafting a player who has proven himself on both ends of the floor in a good college program. Bad habits are acquired if you are young and play overseas. Playing in college for a hard nosed coach means a lot to me if you can survive and excel with that experience. I hope we get a pick where there is less gambling while trying to hit a home run with a long shot like Dumars did with Darko. I know there is a lot of wishing going on relating to somehow drafting Ball. But have you thought that through? Does he want to play in Detroit and will he sign a 2nd contract if he is a superstar? Was he afraid to play one year in a good USA college program for fear some of his defects might surface? Is he a team orientated player? Isiah Thomas was always a team first player even though he was a star player in his own right. I want that type of player if Detroit keeps the pick. My preference is to trade the pick especially if we get lucky with the ping pong balls. However, perhaps getting a top 2 or 3 pick might not be worth that much this year. Go Pistons? I hope we get to see them play next season. Everyone stay healthy and avoid the China Virus.

[Sparma]

Sounds like Weaver is indeed the frontrunner, but if Wojnarowski says there are still two others in the running, I believe him. Mark Hughes faintly rings a bell from the UM past, but I don't know much of anything about the candidates, although I suppose where they've worked provides some decent clues. Weaver's OKC links sound promising; they've consistently taken the long view, something we've repeatedly failed to do. Even now I'm not so sure.

Once one of the three is likely hired, soon, we can work on the mystery of what the structure of the organization will look like. If only Gores kept out of basketball ops, I'd be pleased, but that seems unlikely.

Well it seems that the search for a GM has finally come to an end and the good news for me is, I don't know a damn thing about this guy other than the time frame he was at OKC. Presti, speaks highly of him and if he's not the basketball version of Bob Quin, the Pistons should be coming away from the "drag ass" way of doing business...that rationalizing shooting yourself in the foot style of management. I think of a roster of Kevin Durant, Serge Ibaka, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden, all drafted by OKC; could that happen in Detroit?!

The Pistons have a lonely first round draft pick, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose, and some "snake oil salesmen" talking sh!t about our needs are minimal to rebuild...the underlying truth is, that's B.S.! That delusional ownership idea of holding onto Blake Griffin is putting off the start of any serious rebuild for at least two years (we're going to make the yearly charge to the playoffs) and re-sign players like Brandon Knight and Langston Galloway...holding onto Thon Maker and Tony Snell, while working buttonholes as we fans twittle our thumbs wondering if we'll re-sign Christian Wood or not. As long as "King" Gores hold sway over the direction of the team and Stefanski, and Tellum remain the voices of enforcement, that's the way things will be. Why the hell does the GM need three and a half people (Gores, Stefanski, Tellum, and Casey) to answer to about rebuilding this team? I'm going to dream my dream and share it on this forum.

We're going to get lucky and draft LaMelo Ball...we're going to re-sign Christian Wood...Luke Kennard is going to remain healthy throughout the season and display some leadership skills that surpasses our expectations, Bruce is going to shoot, Svi is going to defend, Sekou is going to be consistent, and the young'uns, in general, are going to show their asses! Our new GM will pay half of Griffins salary to trade him for a top 10 pick, that pick and Rose moves us into the top 5. The Pistons land Onyeka Okongwu with that pick. Fred VanVleet is signed in FA and Henson along with Galloway are brought back. The team's rebuild is well underway and learning to play the right way...no worries about health concerns.

GO PISTONS!!

[cool breeze]

Could some NFL team from some super liberal city like New York or San Francisco give Kaepernick a freaking third string QB spot???   Pay him $10 million a year to sit the bench.  Other NFL teams could pitch in to help pay his salary, and the NFL could give him a salary cap exception.  Then we wouldn’t have to hear about him anymore.  

And if it would pacify the radical left, then elect that senile, corrupt, creeper, Joe Biden.  I mean who really cares?   It’s not as if my life is going to change. If the radical left will just stop burning down the country, then its well worth it to have the corrupt senile old coot in the White House.  

Then we can go back to invading Middle Eastern countries, allowing all the illegal aliens who can wonder in, putting them on welfare and letting them vote, and continuing to get raped by the Chinese on trade.  Again, if it shuts up the radical left, then who cares?

Murph I agree with your idea on the flag as well as everything you are saying. You are a brave man to be willing to state your case while being outnumbered. We are still free to do that but maybe not for long. Eliminate any song that honors our fallen military heroes so activists cannot steal the meaning of why we stand. Eliminate 4th of July day and do not pay government workers for that day anymore. Political activists will always try to force the Progressive movement on us to ruin our fun as we await sporting events.

The nonsense created by an inept quarterback will be forgotten as he should be for sure Mr. K is no hero to me or any race. He was already a rich man and had to answer to nobody when he brought back the "Black Power" movement. I served in the armed forces in a war I didn't want to be in. In fact I hated the thought of being drafted in that time period of history. I wonder what the radicals would do now if they got a draft notice. I weighed all the options and decided to let the the government steal two years of my life even if it ended my life, instead of being a coward or destroying my future with that felony I would have had if I had gone to Canada like all the radicals and the brave "spitters on vets" who have wormed their way into our government as leaders. After going to Vietnam I realized how true it is as to how much our news media spins so many lies. We were the good guys. The VC were murderers of innocent women and kids. I saw it personally and it changed my perception of why I was there and how corrupt the media was in that time period. Never did anyone in the media wonder why our political leaders did not give the OK to bomb the hell out of ships from China and Russia that were full of weapons being used on people like me. How could our government betray us? They did because the media was telling all political leaders what to say and do. If they didn't then they would be crucified on the nightly news. It was good to celebrate the death of American soldiers but bad to bomb our real enemy.

Fortunately, we were able to sell our home and move out to a really nice area where the running and biking is fantastic. Our neighbors are Black, White, Yellow and we all get along. In fact there are a lot of active duty and retired military here so you see a lot of flags. People are not afraid here like my neighbors were inside the city of Tucson. What did it for me relating to moving was when my wife said if something happened to me, she would be afraid to spend another night in our home in Tucson. We lived in a so called good area but there really is no safe area there at night as the same criminals who break into your home are allowed to keep doing it over and over.

Some of the mindset we are confronted with Murph is understandable because people are being indoctrinated by teachers and the news media. The same thing keeps playing out in history it seems and is frustrating to watch. Surprise life isn't fair and no politician can make it fair. If they say they can they are trying to steal from you and you can bet that they really don't care at all. If you have been on a sports team as a kid and played with all different racial groups, you know the truth. There is no color if you are a good teammate. Same is true relating to my experience in Vietnam. We depended on each other to stay alive and had a bond that was not superficial. There was no color in the field of battle. We were just US American soldiers. There were fights now and then to let off steam but not often.

This current thing is being manufactured. It looks to me as if there are a lot of followers who need leaders to follow. Pretty sad to look at. We all have a choice in America at least until the Progressives take over. We can stay in school and avoid the drug dealers. We can work hard in school and become the best we can be or we can become the worst we can be. It has nothing to do with race in today's world. People of all colors are doing both the right thing and the wrong thing. Go through the wrong door and you will be screwed for life. My parents taught me that simple fact and I have passed it on. There are too many successful Black, White, and Yellow people who have decided to do the right thing regardless of of the fact that they were born into families with evil parents who care less about their children. What about the kids who have great parents who decide to become ass holes? Who's fault is that but the individual who became the ass hole. There needs to be some form of adjustment in attitude where instead of pointing fingers at the police people should identify the parents who fail to parent or be financially responsible for their kids. Who are the people who are looting? The media on CNN tried to make them out as heroes instead of the criminals they really must be. Who is financing all of the demonstrations and what are their motives? For sure those billionaires who are doing this could care less about any human but themselves. You should all know that and not be so gullible.

Why is it that Black police officers have been identified as targets for death by the radical groups? They want to spin the narrative that no Black person can be successful because of slavery. Black men look handsome in their police uniforms. They are proud of what they do. They are role models for the Black Community. The Progressives don't like that. They want the love and also power over everyone. It appears that we have reverse racism now. BLK until recently chanted "What do we need? More dead Cops" in public marches. Did they mean Black Cops too? It appears so. Now this group seems to be main stream.The last thing Black citizens need is for people to form a group and say they represent everyone in one specific race. We actually gain power in our lives by being individuals who have the desire to get along with everyone. If we don't want to get along with everyone and just bond with people within our race, life will be dull and limiting. Has BLK ever said we should all try to get along and make this country better? If so I haven't ever heard that from them and of course CNN has never asked that question to whoever is the leader of BLK. Is the leader George Soros? Now they are yelling "Defund the Police" and elected officials are joining in. Didn't MAYORS AND GOVERNORS take an oath of office TO REPRESENT LAW ABIDING CITIZENS? Do law abiding citizens who are afraid of the criminals want to defund the police or do they want more good cops and less cowardly elected officials who blow with the wind trying to figure out how they can stay popular? Those losers cowards stand for nothing but corruption.

I thought living near the University here would be really fun. However I soon found out that every time someone dared to put up a sign that conflicted with the Mob of Progressives, their home was vandalized. People in the City Council have no opposition on election day much like every large city. The Tucson is always in financial difficulty while the Police are driving vehicles with 300,000 miles plus. Why is it that citizens in these cities continue to get hoodwinked by their progressive leaders? Why do the public schools suck regardless of the amount of money spent on education? Why not get angry over that and take that out on the people they elect locally? Maybe normal people are afraid to say or do anything. I kept a low profile. That is why I find the current demonstrations very weird as if they are not real but orchestrated. We are coming close to the election. Progressives have a losing platform and are not yelling "Make America Great Again". Instead they want to increase the size of government by hiring more "Regulators" to regulate your lives and don't forget more punishing ideas that will suck what money we make away with "climate change"- "open borders"- "defund the police"( need to buy a new television every month due to more burglaries) - "end air travel" - " stop selling beef because cows are destroying the planet"- "raise taxes especially the corporate tax rate"- abolish all prisons and "worship the people of academe who have tenure and seem to forget that they should be in class instead of trying to create the revolution. They believe people will want them in charge instead of having elections. Do the tenured professors care about you? Should we put eyes on them if we are doing the same with police?

Albert Speer said professors in Nazi Germany ( German Socialist Workers Party) didn't care at all about individuals which the Progressives are using as their model to create the take over. Our professors are commanding that no "intellectual diversity will be allowed". At U of Arizona professors get students to protest when Homeland Security wants to recruit graduating students. Got to eliminate law enforcement before the revolution can evolve into a real take over. Object to what is being said and you are a "racist". wear a tie if you teach a class and you are condemned as a hater or transgenders. Yes Transgenders are pissed off and want to hunt down everyone who wears a tie because somehow a tie is a symbol of "Bad Power". Progressives can't wait to take power to make things right. We are greedy spoiled people who need re education and higher taxes. We need punishment now. Spank us please. Object to the spanking and you are a racist and will be punished by our private police who of course will be very "fair". Stamp out all television cop shows. Give the Medal of Honor to all who have the courage to loot after the next election when the take over happens. You were brave soldiers and thank you so much for all of your efforts. Hugs will be in order.

That is what we are dealing with. Now is the time to be prepared for what is to come my friends. Too many people hate America. Fly your flag in your yard and be ready to face the coming attack after the mob gets tired to taking over control of the commercial areas. We are at WAR. Gangs are ready with military grade weapons. Oh the Progressive leaders forgot to tell you. I wonder why they didn't talk about the 2nd wave. Some of my Black-White-Yellow neighbors are saying this now especially the Black people who have served in the military. They are wondering how things could go this far because they have been busy serving our country. The Progressives hate military people as much as cops. Maybe next thing they will say is disband the police. Of course the Progressive are not being led by people from other countries that want us to become too weak to defend ourselves. No that cannot be true. Are there no peace loving democrats left?

We are having a meeting tonight in my neighborhood and it will be fun to hear what some of the Afghanistan vets will be advising if the police officers all walk away. That could happen. Who in hell would want to be a cop? I am old but am glad my new neighbors are aware of what is really going on. Will Trump step in if things really go bad. I think he must. By the way I haven't met anyone here who doesn't watch Fox News, Fox Nation and C-Span. They say that they Can't trust any other news networks. Who owns those networks? Who are the advertisers on those phony networks? Tulsi Gabbard who appears on Fox tried to run for President on the democratic ticket. She found out everything is fixed like the 2016 election where Jim Webb found out the same thing along with those hacked e-mails between the networks and Clinton's campaign director and the DNC. Does the media runs what used to be the democratic party not normal citizens anymore? Wonder why neither of those two fantastic people couldn't get a question asked to them in the debates? They served in the military and are automatically excluded from any consideration. Do the Progressive actually hate America? Why don't they move to another country if everything is so bad here? No they want power and control and want to install 'Rigid Control". The thought police will be the new law enforcement tool used to accomplish that feat. Meanwhile Joe Biden will be sleeping and when he wakes up might be puzzled as to if he is with his wife or sister.

If there will be a Piston team in the future, I hope Detroit owners will trade their top pick for more picks in this draft. If so draft Zeke Naaji who I believe will be rookie of the year. He is tall, exceptionally smart, loves to learn new things, plays defense, has great foot work, is exceptionally athletic, and can shoot the ball anywhere on the court at a high percentage. Some power house NBA team will draft him late in the first round most likely. The rich get richer. I do not see the upside in drafting any of the players listed in the top 7 on most boards. And I would also try to get Oregon's exceptional point guard. That is what my crystal ball is telling me today at least. Go Pistons! All of the information I have provided is true to the best of my knowledge but my memory might not be correct. Bill Clinton told me to include that sentence in this report.

[deusXango]

Well it seems that the search for a GM has finally come to an end and the good news for me is, I don't know a damn thing about this guy other than the time frame he was at OKC. Presti, speaks highly of him and if he's not the basketball version of Bob Quin, the Pistons should be coming away from the "drag ass" way of doing business...that rationalizing shooting yourself in the foot style of management. I think of a roster of Kevin Durant, Serge Ibaka, Russell Westbrook, and James Harden, all drafted by OKC; could that happen in Detroit?!

The Pistons have a lonely first round draft pick, Blake Griffin, Derrick Rose, and some "snake oil salesmen" talking sh!t about our needs are minimal to rebuild...the underlying truth is, that's B.S.! That delusional ownership idea of holding onto Blake Griffin is putting off the start of any serious rebuild for at least two years (we're going to make the yearly charge to the playoffs) and re-sign players like Brandon Knight and Langston Galloway...holding onto Thon Maker and Tony Snell, while working buttonholes as we fans twittle our thumbs wondering if we'll re-sign Christian Wood or not. As long as "King" Gores hold sway over the direction of the team and Stefanski, and Tellum remain the voices of enforcement, that's the way things will be. Why the hell does the GM need three and a half people (Gores, Stefanski, Tellum, and Casey) to answer to about rebuilding this team? I'm going to dream my dream and share it on this forum.

We're going to get lucky and draft LaMelo Ball...we're going to re-sign Christian Wood...Luke Kennard is going to remain healthy throughout the season and display some leadership skills that surpasses our expectations, Bruce is going to shoot, Svi is going to defend, Sekou is going to be consistent, and the young'uns, in general, are going to show their asses! Our new GM will pay half of Griffins salary to trade him for a top 10 pick, that pick and Rose moves us into the top 5. The Pistons land Onyeka Okongwu with that pick. Fred VanVleet is signed in FA and Henson along with Galloway are brought back. The team's rebuild is well underway and learning to play the right way...no worries about health concerns.

GO PISTONS!!

[deusXango]

And another thing, stop playing the national anthem at sporting events.  The solution is easy.  Simply stop doing it.  It’s clear that roughly half the country is not proud of the country, or the national anthem,  or the flag, and takes every opportunity to piss off the other half of the country by going out of their way to disrespect those symbols.

That humiliating poem, penned by the bigoted, slave owning, racist, Francis Scott Key? The man who hated blacks and wished them all dead and wrote that in The Stars Spangled Banner? Yeah, I'm with you on this Murph, stop playing that at sporting events; it has no place where people of all ethnic groups and their families are gathered to enjoy a good time in brotherhood. Now let's get back to basketball and leave the insulting, name calling, to the lessor folk...I consider you to be above that, really. Let us all stand proudly under "Old Glory," she means something great!

[Murph]

Could some NFL team from some super liberal city like New York or San Francisco give Kaepernick a freaking third string QB spot??? Pay him $10 million a year to sit the bench. Other NFL teams could pitch in to help pay his salary, and the NFL could give him a salary cap exception. Then we wouldn’t have to hear about him anymore.

And if it would pacify the radical left, then elect that senile, corrupt, creeper, Joe Biden. I mean who really cares? It’s not as if my life is going to change. If the radical left will just stop burning down the country, then its well worth it to have the corrupt senile old coot in the White House.

Then we can go back to invading Middle Eastern countries, allowing all the illegal aliens who can wonder in, putting them on welfare and letting them vote, and continuing to get raped by the Chinese on trade. Again, if it shuts up the radical left, then who cares?

[Murph]

And another thing, stop playing the national anthem at sporting events. The solution is easy. Simply stop doing it. It’s clear that roughly half the country is not proud of the country, or the national anthem, or the flag, and takes every opportunity to piss off the other half of the country by going out of their way to disrespect those symbols.

So stop flying flags and playing the national anthem. Problem solved.

[Murph]

Sorry, I don't see it.  I don't see the radical left improving anything in this country.  I see inner cities being burned, and black businesses being destroyed.  The radical left has exploited a national emergency and worldwide pandemic, and they've exploited a single incident of police brutality, and they've used it as an excuse to throw a temper tantrum and tear down the country.  Rather than working to built up and improve this country, they've burned it down, both literally and figuratively.  

Just like after the Martin Luther King riots in the 60s, it's going to take decades to rebuild our cities.  And this time around, it might not happen at all, as we as a nation are tapped out.  More than likely, this will be China's century.  It already is.  And the US is going to experience a permanent decline in our standard of living.

So go ahead; knock yourselves out. Burn down the country and blame it on Trump, or the police, of the "white power structure". No one expects the radical left to ever take responsibility for their actions anyway. I'm sure they are quite happy about all of this.  

And believe me, the feeling is mutual.  I hate the radical left as much as they hate me.

[Sparma]

As important as the issues under debate are, I'm going to permit myself a turn of attention to the playing field/ court.

With one pick to go, it's looking like the Tigers are putting together an outstanding draft. Reading about the prospects, it sounds like they're finally gathering a strong group of hitters, to go with Greene from last year. Finally, it's becoming possible to project something like a balanced team. I'm hoping for one more miserable season so that they can pick very high in the draft. If this season ever starts, we'll likely see a bit of some of their top prospects, but it won't be until next year that they'll be a major presence. Even then, I expect them to be a bad team next year. So it's not until the third season from now that I expect the record to start to turn around, maybe putting them around .500.

There's a long road ahead, then, but the team's prospects are becoming exciting.

Unless the Pistons a) draft a guy who becomes a genuine star, b) Sekou becomes a star, c) Kennard becomes a near All-Star, d) Wood resigns and continues his impressive development, and e) some of the supplemental players (Brown, Svi) step up, I like the Tigers' outlook a whole lot more than that of the Pistons. I suppose both teams have a lot of ifs, but I see a higher probability for good outcomes for the ifs of the Tigers.

Periodically, the Detroit papers run a story on which Detroit team will be the next league champion. Tough, really tough. I'd put the Tigers' odds of being the next Detroit champ higher than those of the Pistons.

[Oracle]

So I refuse to feel personally guilty about any past racial transgressions this country has committed.  Since I was born in 1960, this country has been slowly and steadily moving in the right direction to correct and improve it's racial issues.  In spite of everything that's happened in the past 3 months, I am still proud of this country and root for it's continued success and improvement.  

I fear we are at a tipping point, and that my teenage kids will not be able to enjoy the benefits of the country I grew up in.  And I am baffled by the nihilists and anarchists who want to burn down this country, both figuratively and literally.  I don't understand their anger and ideology, and I cannot image what they have to gain.

1. So I refuse to feel personally guilty about any past racial transgressions this country has committed: Fact is, nobody is asking you to and nobody cares, but that's the biggest cop out used by White immigrants, it holds no water. Taking stolen money and resources, even if you didn't steal them makes you part of the illegal activity.

You can claim ignorance about participating in a racist system and benefiting from it without complaining about it or doing anything to change it, it makes no difference. At some point, you're going to be called to account... you, your children or your grandchildren.

Nobody will care what you think, justice will be done, everybody now knows who everybody is and supports, it isn't a secret. Punishing the guilty is what the Republicans believe in, and it's always good to see people get what they deserve.

It's Karma, or simple "What goes around comes around", I'm not making judgements, I'm just telling you what history tells me, payment must be made.

However, that one statement speaks volumes and shows you don't fully embrace America, just the good things you want, you have no interest in cleaning up the things that go with being an American.

2. I fear we are at a tipping point, and that my teenage kids will not be able to enjoy the benefits of the country I grew up in: I understand that, it's very selfish, but I understand it.

With that statement you're basically saying that you don't care about the lives that have been trashed in all the years of your life, as long as you've had it good and hopefully your kids have it good.

And there we see the biggest difference between liberals and conservatives. We see injustice and seek to right it, conservatives see injustice and as long as it doesn't hit them, they could give a crap about the murder and destroyed lives of anybody else.

However, at least you say it, some here just wrap themselves in a fantasy world and wonder why everybody can't see his fantasy.

The new America will be good for anybody that can compete, which leaves the Trump people out of it for the most part.

A guy(White) on Twitter said that you can't treat Gods children like this! He didn't know how close to the truth he was.

[cool breeze]

Between Liberals & Conservatives, I don't fear change, and really embrace the opportunity to get better and more.

Yes, I'm a proud product of public schools, went to Wayne State, but went to grad school here in Los Angeles at USC, home of OJ Simpleton, LOL 

So while I ONLY consider Detroit my home, my 2nd home is LA! Oh, and yes, you got my salary range correct, which is normal for senior software developers out here.

There are just times when you need to tear things down, like the Police, much less the American System, but tinkering around the edges isn't going to solve these issues, more radical surgery is needed.

So why would I want this when I'm living very well, and can work from home without missing a beat? I believe if we remove the dead weight that I can do even better!

I want to make low end NBA salary, $1.5M - $2M per year. I want to see the best we have make it and stop having these inferior people keeping power year after year.

In short, I want to see competition, something everybody on this forum should want and understand, but we have NEVER had that, never had a free market, no real capitalism because we've eliminated real competition.

In every business I've ever been in and every business we've worked with, the thing they're all trying to avoid is competition. Every business will cheat FIRST and only compete if there's no other way. Cheating is the American way of life!
1. Americans cheat to get their kids in good schools
2. Children are taught to cheat in sports all the time. If they know they made a mistake and didn't get caught, they lie.
3. Americans cheat to get a job

Racism is the biggest cheat of all, it allows the inferior to get things and not have to compete for them... that's real affirmative action, and it's been going on from the beginning of this country, and I don't think it's fair to say just wait awhile... is 400 years long enough?

Then you have people like Don think the USA is so great, but can't tell you why!

1. Was it the murder of American Indians
2. Slavery
3. Waiting to be attacked before accidently helping Jews, even knowing about their plight for years
4. Dropping the bomb on the japanese when they were no threat, watching for months so they could measure the damage and loss of life cause, all while not knowing if dropping the bomb would ignite the atmosphere or not.
5. A nation that was born out of law breaking and terrorism

It goes on and on, so where's all of this good he sees good?

Well, the ONE good thing is the ideas and concepts this nation attempts to get to, but never seems to be able to accomplish.

Those ideas are worth working towards, but they're unrealized and remain hard to fulfill. In fact an honest look at where we're at, we'll never get there.

You have to ask yourself are these things hard to do, or are the people bad... IMO, the people are bad, which Christians will tell you is 100% true!

But never forget...

Oracle...I didn't envision the USC graduate degree.  You are full of surprises.  

My family immigrated to the US from Germany, England and Wales in the 1880s and 90s, long after slavery was over.  My family lived in the mid-west and were not involved in the Indian Wars.  My mother and father were Roosevelt Democrats and extremely progressive.  My father served in WWII, saw combat in Northern France and his claim to fame was that his unity liberated Buchenwald.  He brought home insane photographs of the prisoners at Buchenwald and made a point of showing them to my brother and myself.

I am 60 years old and grew up in Ohio.  I went to an integrated public high school, then attended one of the most liberal universities in the country in NYC.  I have always had black, Jewish and Asian friends and lovers.

So I refuse to feel personally guilty about any past racial transgressions this country has committed.  Since I was born in 1960, this country has been slowly and steadily moving in the right direction to correct and improve it's racial issues.  In spite of everything that's happened in the past 3 months, I am still proud of this country and root for it's continued success and improvement.  

I fear we are at a tipping point, and that my teenage kids will not be able to enjoy the benefits of the country I grew up in.  And I am baffled by the nihilists and anarchists who want to burn down this country, both figuratively and literally.  I don't understand their anger and ideology, and I cannot image what they have to gain.

Me too Murph. I am not worried about myself which Oracle seems to be focused on, but want every kid including all of my younger relatives to enjoy America as I have experienced it. I say that after being drafted into the service and spending 1 scary year in Vietnam. Murph maybe you Dad served with the 506 - 101st Airborne if he liberated one of the camps. My Father and 3 uncles served in WW2. I am reading a group of books by Donald Burgett now and he was one of my Dad's best friends. I was named after this guy who was an 18 year old kid who served with the 101st in A Company. I read a book and then watch the episodes from the "Band of Brothers" as he fought with those soldiers who were in Easy Company. My football, basketball, baseball and track coaches all served in WW2. If anybody should bitch about America and how they were treated by the American military leaders at the time, then it should be them. Donald Burgett said that he was outside with his fellow soldiers for 72 days in waste deep water seldom getting any food and going without sleep for many days in a row in Operation Market Garden. Nobody cares but a few of us but I sure appreciate being taught by so many American heroes. I can see see them marching downtown on Memorial Day in their ragged WW2 uniforms. My Mom died this past year and I returned to my hometown in northern Michigan to see the grave markers of so many of my teachers. So despite being drafted into a undeclared war and spending 1 year in combat, I have no regrets and love and appreciate America.

Oracle good to hear that you are doing so well but I detect a lot of hate in your description of the way you believe America has failed. You are wrong about dropping the bomb. Read "Killing the Rising Sun" and your perspective will change. It is estimated that America would have sustained up to 1 million casualties if they had invaded Japan. The Emperor refused the many requests to surrender and the small children had been trained in guerrilla warfare. So easy to dismiss that hard decision Truman made. But maybe you don't think that over 400,000 American soldiers deaths were enough.

Any historian knows that it is corrupt to try to compare current values with the values of the period of time a historian studies. However, this has been going on now where people are pulling bits and pieces to show how bad this country was earlier on. Relating to the slavery time capsule, a lot was going on in that time period. Most people was able to come to America only as Indentured servants and served as semi slaves for many years before gaining their freedom. Also, there have been many non fiction books written showing that even in the deep South there were many thousands of free Blacks. Within that population of free blacks over 50% owned, rented and sold slaves. Blacks also owned some of the big slave trading companies in the world. And of course the unfortunate people who became slaves were captured by rival Black tribes and sold to the slave traders. It was a nasty business in every regard but slavery was going on everywhere. I fact all White people in America might have a claim against the country of Italy if the same logic is made that reparations should be made for past crimes as the Romans captured many thousands of innocent White people from Norther Europe. The truth is life is messy. Nothing is fair. It is not fair for a small kid to get cancer. It is not fair for someone to get killed by a vehicle when they are in the cross walk. How many near misses have we all had. What is frustrating for me is to see how gullible people have become these days. People are trying to get something for nothing. They will keep pushing and committing acts of violence if our leaders allow it to happen. If this continues and elected people on the local level remain cowards, then there will no country to live in that anyone will want.

Think about the "Brown Shirts" in Germany during the early 1930s. The they kept getting followers until their army was bigger than the regular army. They were blaming the "JEWS" and the media was driving that narrative. White elite guilt eats it all up. The middle class continues to suffer. People better wise up and stop believing all this is happening because of Trump. JEW is bad. TRUMP is bad. CNN has made fools of a lot of people.

[cool breeze]

My wife's first nursing job after graduating was working nights in a Psych unit in Pontiac. Good stories but very dangerous and I sure was happy when she moved to a step down unit at Beaumont Hospital.

Thanks for your thoughts. I was wondering how your suggestions could have worked at the McDonalds where the big mentally ill guy jumped up on the counter. In that situation the policeman responded to the call very quickly as he must have been in the area. Thanks to his bravery of being willing to confront this crazed man, he saved the lives of perhaps more than one person. In the end both were killed but when thinking about how quickly this took place, I believe it would be impossible for someone other than a policeman to respond or prevent bloodshed. It just doesn't make practical sense that the public could ever be protected and I doubt many social workers would sign up for such duty. If they are working at a fixed location like a hospital in a ward such as you described, then for sure that would be the course that would be taken.

I like to place myself in the situations where police have to do the dirty work and somehow do the right thing and find that it is almost impossible to make everyone happy with whatever actions are taken. The policeman everyone is now focused on who acted outrageously has triggered this idea that all cops act in that way when making an arrest. That is also wrong. It is insulting for 99% of people in law enforcement to be judged in that way. No rational person can actually believe this narrative yet our political leaders are more than ready to throw all of them under the bus to take attention away from their cowardly behavior. Everyone wants to create their own new set of rules. Police chiefs and ranking police leaders should be setting the standards of behavior moving forward or at least former people who have at least worked in the difficult profession. The way things are now, I suspect that everyone will suffer because law enforcement will now lose some of the really talented young men and women who had been thinking about carving out a career in that profession. The big winners seems to be the criminals. Everyone is very concerned about the rights of the criminals except the victims. I can't imagine any of the political leaders in the states where the most violence has occurred now creating the new rules of behavior for the police. They have been AWOL in every respect. It seems that when we see city council members being interviewed on tv, they all must have gone to the same school on how to run away from the duties of their job once elected. Last night there was a interview with a city council member in Seattle where the host asked the question of what is going to happen when the council defunds the police and the host in in bed and can hear somebody breaking into her home. The answer was so lame this young lady's parents must have been embarrassed. After talking what appeared to be a form of Pig Latin nobody in this world could understand the answer. Oh I get that question asked a lot and think about it often. What would I do? Oh well I would think about my special privilege in life and let's see well ..... In other words good luck when the mob breaks through your front door and get used to it. As Tucson is a 1 party City made up of Progressives who are given their marching orders from the Professors of hate who have tenure at the U of Arizona, I suspect they would give the same answer to that question. They have no clue what their job actually is because they only know how to perform "activist duties". The same is true with a large percentage of mayors. When the going gets tough, these people run for the hills. So BLM what do you want? We want the citizens of this city to provide us with a hot fudge sundae NOW. Well I can it that done in 2 hours will that be OK? I think the thugs who are pushing the buttons are laughing their asses off. But the citizens in Seattle who now see that a large portion of their city has been claimed by the people who pay no taxes and perhaps have never worked a day in their lives, are wondering what has happened. Their mayor, governor and city council have betrayed them. When asked about this take over the governor said he didn't know that it had happened and then offered no suggestions. Why are people paying taxes? That is going on in a lot of hard working citizens minds now throughout the country relating to paying State income tax and City taxes. How long does it take to remove a city council member, mayor or governor now days. That conversation must happen.

What is bothersome to me after living many years in Michigan knowing what was going on in that City at the time is the fact that a lot of big cities are completely bankrupt thinks to the social engineering that took place long ago relating to busing. Everyone I knew gave their homes away if they could sell them who did not have job working for the city. A senior in high school who had bonded with his buddies playing sports at a school close to his parents home was told he would be going to another school next fall. How lucky would that be for not only the athletes but also the parents who loved attending the football and basketball games. Why would they go to the high school in their neighborhood now? I bring this up Sparma because I do not like your idea that it would be smart to sit down and see if we can tweak our current system of government where we have a Bill of Rights and a Constitution and three separate branches of government. If we entertain that idea imagine what the current elected officials will come up with. After all the people elected to Congress have been able to set their own salaries, handle sexual harassment claims secretly where the pay offs cannot be looked at by the citizens who are paying the bill act.. Look what is going on in the House of Representatives now. Do you actually trust those people more than the elected police chiefs in the cities of America? Our country is only as good as the citizens who live here. If they keep electing the idiots like that mayor in Minn. and the inept city council members, then what good will it do to change anything. When I was young most all of my teachers were WW2 vets who felt strongly about how great our country was. We also had a great mayor and city council made up of men and women who had actually made sacrifices for the country in many ways. Do you believe that any of those former mayors, governors, city council members who behave like the cowards we are currently witnessing. They are all afraid and are walking on tip toes ready to throw all of their tax paying citizens off a cliff if the mob of thugs makes that request. It will be hard but they will do it. I can see them saying that. Why won't the mob move into the residential areas now. They get whatever they want like small children do when the parents are not parenting. By the way where are the parents of all of those demonstrators who have kids out late at night?

Finally I keep repeating the fact that our country is based on "individualism". There is nothing written about group rights in our Constitution to my knowledge. Americans have choices. What is the the worst thing a person can do relating in America that will ruin or really hurt any chance of having a happy and successful life? DROPPING OUT OF SCHOOL is the answer as you must know. Why are the parents not checking their kids homework and report cards? Where exactly is the breakdown? Is it the fault of somebody who doesn't know the kid who dropped out or the parents? Who is on the local school boards in every city especially cities like NYC, LA and Chicago? Something is really wrong with a lot of "individuals". Everyone is discussing the police. Perhaps the parents are the people who are burning down the buildings and beating up the police. Could that be Sparma? This is where the blame needs to move on to instead of throwing any additional money other "individuals" need to support their own families. There is no individual responsibility. Political types love it when that happens. They can promise stuff if nobody throws a brick at them. Most of the money given by tax payers who don't live in the bankrupt cities is going into the pockets of the same political leaders who hold positions in the local government. If any changes need to occur that i where we need to start. Remember the Detroit school board members who had their personal stretch limo and driver back in the day? Hell no those schools do not need new heating and cooling units. They don't need computers. They just need to be indoctrinated. Remember this fact Sparma. 99.6% of all teachers and administrators belong and provide money to the progressive party. They provide their personal opinions about political issues and condemn the opposition party. Do republican tax payers know that? I am an independent as most people should be and know that. The public universities have a higher percentage if you can believe that. I got that information 2 years ago watching C-Span. Again, why are we paying taxes if our leaders are behaving so shamelessly? Meanwhile Labron James played at a Catholic private school didn't he? What if Labron announced to his worshipers -- Hey you can stop tearing up our cities now? Great job but we need some order so the NBA can find some followers. Imagine how many innocent small business owners have had their lives ruined.

[Sparma]

I appreciate your thoughtful post on the issue, Don, drawing from personal experience. My own experience comes mainly from having worked for a couple of years at a psychiatric hospital after graduating from college. That was enough to convince me that there aren't easy answers. On the grounds of the hospital there were many incidents were I would not have wanted the police to take the lead; yet my sense is that's frequently what is the case in equivalent cases off the grounds. I'm not saying there couldn't or shouldn't be a role for the police, particularly in the kind of violent example you're describing. In my own experience, I think of an example that spilled off the grounds, that did involve some violence, where the psychiatric staff took point, but the police was also present. That struck me as a sensible approach, and my guess is that some kind of combined approach might often work best. There'd need to be some good negotiating as to what the best approach should be, under varying circumstances. I'd at least say that I'm not convinced that there's no room for improvement in how the mentally ill are approached, and that that's an area where targeted discussions could lead to fruitful reform.

I wouldn't dare speculate about Oracle like that, Murph, but I'll be curious as to his response.

I would defend some kind of hybrid system as exists in the US and much of Europe, not as beyond reform by any means, but as preferable to genuine alternatives that I can envision.

In addition, at times, I think there's something to the slogan: too big to fail.  That applies specifically to banking, where the failure of banking would lead to widespread panic and long-term problems, in agreement with what you say.  At the same time, my understanding is that Obama missed a chance to win more meaningful reforms from banks in 2008.  And I question some of the handouts this year.  So for me, there's a delicate balance where I want the government to keep certain basic structures of the system in place, including the police, but I also see a need for deep reform.  

In the case of the police, I'm sympathetic to the notion that others might be more cheaply and more effectively trained to be the primary people to deal with drug addicts, the mentally ill, and homeless, assuming much of what the police currently does in those areas.  That strikes me as meaningful and attainable reform.  I heard someone on the Minneapolis city council explain that they'd tried many reforms concerning the police there, and that some in the police talked a good game, but the reforms ultimately hadn't taken.  Nine of them now favor "disbanding" the police after George Floyd's death and the subsequent demonstrations.  I'm sympathetic with their frustrations, but still think that's a case for serious reform within the broad boundaries of the system.  There's a baby in the dirty bathwater worth preserving.  

Cool: Under "socialism" with all the types of forms that have been tried, power is isolated with the "power elite" (Plato) where individuals have no voice. You are a worker bee. You can imagine that your voice will be heard but that is a wish not a right. There can be no intellectual diversity under a socialist state. To make it work the leaders need to install "rigid control".

That's simply not true.  As a teenager, I lived in a country in Europe that had a socialist government.  It resembled far more the hybrid that Murph (correctly, I'd say) ascribes to the US being than what Cool claims holds for all forms of socialism.  [n.b. that Cool agrees with Murph's hybrid ascription, as I do.]

I'd be more of an optimist concerning politics, in this country and beyond, if I were convinced that there's a significant grouping of facts that can win general consensus.  Not all forms of socialism are as Cool describes them.  Things become really worrisome for me when disagreement begins at the level of basic description.  Such seems to be the case not only between Cool and myself, but far more broadly.

When disagreement begins at such an early point, it becomes really difficult to see how meaningful consensus might be built.

Sparma....you bring up a very good point.   Let’s take Oracle as an example.  To me, Oracle seems like a big winner of this system.  Everything seems to have worked the way it should have for a Oracle in the United States of America.  

I am making some very broad assumptions here, and I offer my sincerest apologies if I am wrong about anything.  But over the years I have built a mental picture of Oracle.  I imagine him to have grown up in a white working class family in Detroit.  He might be the son of Eastern European immigrants, or maybe Greek immigrants, who moved to Detroit for a better life.  I imagine Oracle’s father to have worked in manufacturing in Detroit in the mid-20th century.   The family was probably solidly middle class in the 60s and 70s and maybe suffered slightly with the decline of manufacturing.

I image Oracle to be a product of public schools and a public university like Wayne State.  He might have worked his way through college and majored in information technology.  After college, he might have gotten various IT jobs around the Detroit area, gotten married and raise kids who attended public schools as well.  Even though the Detroit economy struggled, Oracle was always able to stay fully employed and gain wide reaching experience in his field.  After all, we know Oracle is a very smart guy, and he’s probably adept at navigating the internal politics wherever he’s employed.

Along about 5 years ago, Oracle’s ship seems to have come in.  He seems to have caught on with a more prosperous company in the LA county area and moved to an eastern suburb of LA, where the living is much easier than in Detroit.   He probably has a position of authority and is pulling down $150 - $250 K a year.  In another 10 or 15 years, Oracle will retire very, very comfortably.  

I imagine Oracle to be a big winner of the American system. He has lived the American dream. He is the child of middle class immigrants who came to the US for a better life.  He worked hard, got married, raised kids and prospered.  He has most likely been very upwardly mobile throughout his life.  For the most part, it’s  all been good.  

So I find it shocking, absolutely shocking, that Oracle wants to tear down the system in which he prospered.  Not only does he want to defund the police, he wants to allow a good portion of the economy to fail, and for the economy to somehow reconstruct itself into a more socialist system.   If someone like Oracle wants to tear it all down, really, there is little hope.

I think a smarter move would be to make incremental changes to the system so that everyone, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, etc can prosper like Oracle has.  Don’t  tear it down, change it for the better.  

My apologies for making such broad, sweeping assumptions on your life and career, Oracle.  I hope I’m not too far off base.

Great discussion and again Murph you have it it out of the park relating to who you think Oracle be even if it is not true because you provide a great message for everyone with half a brain.

Sparma you have provided some good ideas as well. However, I read your thoughts that perhaps someone other than the police should be dealing with the mentally ill. That brought up a bad memory of an incident that I observed about 10 years ago when I stopped to go to the bathroom at a McDonald's restaurant. It was late in the day and the sun was starting to set in the west. As I left the bathroom, a big man about 35 years old was trying to get over the counter to punch a small girl who was taking orders. They had already called the police. A police officer then walked in as customers were fleeing. The guy punched the smaller police officer and knocked him down and ran out of McDonalds. The officer got up and got his taser out while the guy was running across 4 lanes of traffic. He connected with the taser three times and the guy kept on moving. A man who was driving a taxi then stopped and tried to help the officer. All three of the men were tangled up on the outside lane of a busy road when a older man who was taking his grandson home from a soccer game while driving a pickup truck into a blinding sun struck all three men. Both the officer and the taxi driver were killed along with the insane man. I was a witness and interviewed by another officer who said that the deceased officer had arrested the same mentally challenged guy earlier in the same day as he was pounding on doors of homes in his parent's neighborhood. This guy was released instead of being locked up and then took a cab driven by the guy who was killed trying to help the officer to the McDonalds.  The cab driver had been a decorated soldier thinking he was doing his civic duty. I was afraid to jump in like he did even though I had also served in the army. This is a sad story but it plays out more often than you think especially when the police deal with people crazy on drugs at night. Those people sometimes have incredible strength beyond what one officer can control without using his service weapon.

I can't imagine what it must be like to get up out of bed in the morning or at night   and put that uniform on with all of that heavy equipment and go out there to the unknown while your family members tremble with fear that you might not come home. The officers working during the riots were working 12 hour shifts with no days off. They say that for every 10 police officers hired, there is one less murderer on the streets. I am not sure that is true but it would be natural for a police officer under  stress to snap especially when they are under staffed and forced to work crazy hours. That doesn't mean there is any excuse for bad behavior by police officers. I have encountered several in my lifetime. But I still feel for them and it is not right that every police officer should be judged by a few bad apples and that they are supposed to be perfect. It is easy to make new policy but how about people placing themselves in a police officer's shoes instead of trying to generalize so much? It seems everyone has some kind of negative comment about the police.  How about the bad ass criminals who are rotten to the core? The judges who keep letting them out should be held accountable but they seem to get a free pass too often. How about cleaning up the core of corrupt judges in this country? We have one such judge in the Michael Flynn case. What if you are a Republican? Is it possible to get a fair trial in DC? We have a lot of stuff to look into to be "fair minded citizens" don't you think? It seems we all do not have a say in what is fair now. The mob will tell us and we must obey.

Finally how can you call a social worker into a situation where some 6 foot 5 inch monster bad ass mentally ill man or woman is beating the hell out of everyone that crosses their path? What about the innocent civilians getting beaten up or killed? The mistake made in my opinion by the cop that was killed in the story above is that he should have used deadly force or shot the perp in the leg when the tasers didn't work. There is no way anyone can deal with crazy violent people sometimes. You couldn't talk that guy down. No actor to duplicate the horror everyone felt in that McDonalds that day. Did the judge let this guy go saying make sure you take your meds earlier in the day? Those people need to be locked up and when they cannot be controlled everything is out the window relating to making a non violent arrest. How can anyone trust that a mentally ill person will take their meds? Often the people who come up with that insane idea are the people who criticize the police.

How many people who were marching and looting during this spectacle throughout the nation especially at night have violent criminal records? Doesn't anyone care? How many times have they been arrested in the past? I want the details before forming any opinion on police behavior. People are so interested in details every time a police officer might fart so why is this not a two way street in the spirit of "fairness". While watching Fox News at night I kept wondering how parents could allow their teens to mingle with some of those big strong agitated people who appeared to be very dangerous. Of course CNN is very selective to fit the  pre selected story line and they do not show the bad people throwing fire balls.  

How would it feel to be hit full force with a brick? Oh nobody interested maybe.  The 60 Secret Service officers can tell you how that felt. They have to suck it up and take it while be condemned by the cowardly media. Who is behind all of this? Some people are pulling the strings. I hope the Federal government finds out quickly before this country is ruined.

Loss of civil control is the goal. You have to be really stupid not to know that. So why would it be wrong for people in charge to limit demonstrations to 1 day. That is it no more marching allowed. One day should do it not one or two or three weeks. That is insane and shows we have no leadership in local or State government.

Why is it that the Washington Post continues to provide articles about how great it would be to create an authoritarian government? I like Amazon but why shouldn't people who do not want an authoritarian government stop giving Amazon any business? Isn't it a coincidence that so many articles appeared like that before all this destruction  occurred? Sorry CNN violent acts should not be part of a peaceful protest. Didn't they say on that network that it is OK to loot and burn buildings down? Shouldn't that network and other media be held responsible legally for all the damage throughout the nation? It is as if people were waiting for an incident to ignite hell on Earth.  I see the Post quotes a professor at NYU often. I wonder if anyone has investigated this guy to see if he knows the people behind creating the hate? Today the group to hate of course are all White people. Tomorrow it might be another group. Maybe the Jews are next. They were the target during the "KnockDown Movement". How quickly people forget that happened. Ever wonder why the major networks would not report on that?

We already have the best type of governmental system which is supposed to be based on individualism. Judge people as individuals not how they look instead of generalizing where one can never find truth. Only people wanting power want people to do that type of thing. They have achieved success and could care less how many people they have hurt.  The failure in big cities rests with the leaders of local governments. They have failed the poor people for 50 years and are trying to divert the blame somewhere else and always to Trump who actually has helped poor people get jobs. A lot of people know that but the news media loves to keep unrest going as long as possible. They are most to blame more than the police or White folks. At least that is what I think as of today. PEACE!!

[Murph]

Between Liberals & Conservatives, I don't fear change, and really embrace the opportunity to get better and more.

Yes, I'm a proud product of public schools, went to Wayne State, but went to grad school here in Los Angeles at USC, home of OJ Simpleton, LOL 

So while I ONLY consider Detroit my home, my 2nd home is LA! Oh, and yes, you got my salary range correct, which is normal for senior software developers out here.

There are just times when you need to tear things down, like the Police, much less the American System, but tinkering around the edges isn't going to solve these issues, more radical surgery is needed.

So why would I want this when I'm living very well, and can work from home without missing a beat? I believe if we remove the dead weight that I can do even better!

I want to make low end NBA salary, $1.5M - $2M per year. I want to see the best we have make it and stop having these inferior people keeping power year after year.

In short, I want to see competition, something everybody on this forum should want and understand, but we have NEVER had that, never had a free market, no real capitalism because we've eliminated real competition.

In every business I've ever been in and every business we've worked with, the thing they're all trying to avoid is competition. Every business will cheat FIRST and only compete if there's no other way. Cheating is the American way of life!
1. Americans cheat to get their kids in good schools
2. Children are taught to cheat in sports all the time. If they know they made a mistake and didn't get caught, they lie.
3. Americans cheat to get a job

Racism is the biggest cheat of all, it allows the inferior to get things and not have to compete for them... that's real affirmative action, and it's been going on from the beginning of this country, and I don't think it's fair to say just wait awhile... is 400 years long enough?

Then you have people like Don think the USA is so great, but can't tell you why!

1. Was it the murder of American Indians
2. Slavery
3. Waiting to be attacked before accidently helping Jews, even knowing about their plight for years
4. Dropping the bomb on the japanese when they were no threat, watching for months so they could measure the damage and loss of life cause, all while not knowing if dropping the bomb would ignite the atmosphere or not.
5. A nation that was born out of law breaking and terrorism

It goes on and on, so where's all of this good he sees good?

Well, the ONE good thing is the ideas and concepts this nation attempts to get to, but never seems to be able to accomplish.

Those ideas are worth working towards, but they're unrealized and remain hard to fulfill. In fact an honest look at where we're at, we'll never get there.

You have to ask yourself are these things hard to do, or are the people bad... IMO, the people are bad, which Christians will tell you is 100% true!

But never forget...

Oracle...I didn't envision the USC graduate degree.  You are full of surprises.  

My family immigrated to the US from Germany, England and Wales in the 1880s and 90s, long after slavery was over.  My family lived in the mid-west and were not involved in the Indian Wars.  My mother and father were Roosevelt Democrats and extremely progressive.  My father served in WWII, saw combat in Northern France and his claim to fame was that his unity liberated Buchenwald.  He brought home insane photographs of the prisoners at Buchenwald and made a point of showing them to my brother and myself.

I am 60 years old and grew up in Ohio.  I went to an integrated public high school, then attended one of the most liberal universities in the country in NYC.  I have always had black, Jewish and Asian friends and lovers.

So I refuse to feel personally guilty about any past racial transgressions this country has committed.  Since I was born in 1960, this country has been slowly and steadily moving in the right direction to correct and improve it's racial issues.  In spite of everything that's happened in the past 3 months, I am still proud of this country and root for it's continued success and improvement.  

I fear we are at a tipping point, and that my teenage kids will not be able to enjoy the benefits of the country I grew up in.  And I am baffled by the nihilists and anarchists who want to burn down this country, both figuratively and literally.  I don't understand their anger and ideology, and I cannot image what they have to gain.

[cool breeze]

I wouldn't dare speculate about Oracle like that, Murph, but I'll be curious as to his response.

I would defend some kind of hybrid system as exists in the US and much of Europe, not as beyond reform by any means, but as preferable to genuine alternatives that I can envision.

In addition, at times, I think there's something to the slogan: too big to fail.  That applies specifically to banking, where the failure of banking would lead to widespread panic and long-term problems, in agreement with what you say.  At the same time, my understanding is that Obama missed a chance to win more meaningful reforms from banks in 2008.  And I question some of the handouts this year.  So for me, there's a delicate balance where I want the government to keep certain basic structures of the system in place, including the police, but I also see a need for deep reform.  

In the case of the police, I'm sympathetic to the notion that others might be more cheaply and more effectively trained to be the primary people to deal with drug addicts, the mentally ill, and homeless, assuming much of what the police currently does in those areas.  That strikes me as meaningful and attainable reform.  I heard someone on the Minneapolis city council explain that they'd tried many reforms concerning the police there, and that some in the police talked a good game, but the reforms ultimately hadn't taken.  Nine of them now favor "disbanding" the police after George Floyd's death and the subsequent demonstrations.  I'm sympathetic with their frustrations, but still think that's a case for serious reform within the broad boundaries of the system.  There's a baby in the dirty bathwater worth preserving.  

Cool: Under "socialism" with all the types of forms that have been tried, power is isolated with the "power elite" (Plato) where individuals have no voice. You are a worker bee. You can imagine that your voice will be heard but that is a wish not a right. There can be no intellectual diversity under a socialist state. To make it work the leaders need to install "rigid control".

That's simply not true.  As a teenager, I lived in a country in Europe that had a socialist government.  It resembled far more the hybrid that Murph (correctly, I'd say) ascribes to the US being than what Cool claims holds for all forms of socialism.  [n.b. that Cool agrees with Murph's hybrid ascription, as I do.]

I'd be more of an optimist concerning politics, in this country and beyond, if I were convinced that there's a significant grouping of facts that can win general consensus.  Not all forms of socialism are as Cool describes them.  Things become really worrisome for me when disagreement begins at the level of basic description.  Such seems to be the case not only between Cool and myself, but far more broadly.

When disagreement begins at such an early point, it becomes really difficult to see how meaningful consensus might be built.

Sparma....you bring up a very good point.   Let’s take Oracle as an example.  To me, Oracle seems like a big winner of this system.  Everything seems to have worked the way it should have for a Oracle in the United States of America.  

I am making some very broad assumptions here, and I offer my sincerest apologies if I am wrong about anything.  But over the years I have built a mental picture of Oracle.  I imagine him to have grown up in a white working class family in Detroit.  He might be the son of Eastern European immigrants, or maybe Greek immigrants, who moved to Detroit for a better life.  I imagine Oracle’s father to have worked in manufacturing in Detroit in the mid-20th century.   The family was probably solidly middle class in the 60s and 70s and maybe suffered slightly with the decline of manufacturing.

I image Oracle to be a product of public schools and a public university like Wayne State.  He might have worked his way through college and majored in information technology.  After college, he might have gotten various IT jobs around the Detroit area, gotten married and raise kids who attended public schools as well.  Even though the Detroit economy struggled, Oracle was always able to stay fully employed and gain wide reaching experience in his field.  After all, we know Oracle is a very smart guy, and he’s probably adept at navigating the internal politics wherever he’s employed.

Along about 5 years ago, Oracle’s ship seems to have come in.  He seems to have caught on with a more prosperous company in the LA county area and moved to an eastern suburb of LA, where the living is much easier than in Detroit.   He probably has a position of authority and is pulling down $150 - $250 K a year.  In another 10 or 15 years, Oracle will retire very, very comfortably.  

I imagine Oracle to be a big winner of the American system. He has lived the American dream. He is the child of middle class immigrants who came to the US for a better life.  He worked hard, got married, raised kids and prospered.  He has most likely been very upwardly mobile throughout his life.  For the most part, it’s  all been good.  

So I find it shocking, absolutely shocking, that Oracle wants to tear down the system in which he prospered.  Not only does he want to defund the police, he wants to allow a good portion of the economy to fail, and for the economy to somehow reconstruct itself into a more socialist system.   If someone like Oracle wants to tear it all down, really, there is little hope.

I think a smarter move would be to make incremental changes to the system so that everyone, white, black, Hispanic, Asian, etc can prosper like Oracle has.  Don’t  tear it down, change it for the better.  

My apologies for making such broad, sweeping assumptions on your life and career, Oracle.  I hope I’m not too far off base.

Great discussion and again Murph you have it it out of the park relating to who you think Oracle be even if it is not true because you provide a great message for everyone with half a brain.

Sparma you have provided some good ideas as well. However, I read your thoughts that perhaps someone other than the police should be dealing with the mentally ill. That brought up a bad memory of an incident that I observed about 10 years ago when I stopped to go to the bathroom at a McDonald's restaurant. It was late in the day and the sun was starting to set in the west. As I left the bathroom, a big man about 35 years old was trying to get over the counter to punch a small girl who was taking orders. They had already called the police. A police officer then walked in as customers were fleeing. The guy punched the smaller police officer and knocked him down and ran out of McDonalds. The officer got up and got his taser out while the guy was running across 4 lanes of traffic. He connected with the taser three times and the guy kept on moving. A man who was driving a taxi then stopped and tried to help the officer. All three of the men were tangled up on the outside lane of a busy road when a older man who was taking his grandson home from a soccer game while driving a pickup truck into a blinding sun struck all three men. Both the officer and the taxi driver were killed along with the insane man. I was a witness and interviewed by another officer who said that the deceased officer had arrested the same mentally challenged guy earlier in the same day as he was pounding on doors of homes in his parent's neighborhood. This guy was released instead of being locked up and then took a cab driven by the guy who was killed trying to help the officer to the McDonalds. The cab driver had been a decorated soldier thinking he was doing his civic duty. I was afraid to jump in like he did even though I had also served in the army. This is a sad story but it plays out more often than you think especially when the police deal with people crazy on drugs at night. Those people sometimes have incredible strength beyond what one officer can control without using his service weapon.

I can't imagine what it must be like to get up out of bed in the morning or at night and put that uniform on with all of that heavy equipment and go out there to the unknown while your family members tremble with fear that you might not come home. The officers working during the riots were working 12 hour shifts with no days off. They say that for every 10 police officers hired, there is one less murderer on the streets. I am not sure that is true but it would be natural for a police officer under stress to snap especially when they are under staffed and forced to work crazy hours. That doesn't mean there is any excuse for bad behavior by police officers. I have encountered several in my lifetime. But I still feel for them and it is not right that every police officer should be judged by a few bad apples and that they are supposed to be perfect. It is easy to make new policy but how about people placing themselves in a police officer's shoes instead of trying to generalize so much? It seems everyone has some kind of negative comment about the police. How about the bad ass criminals who are rotten to the core? The judges who keep letting them out should be held accountable but they seem to get a free pass too often. How about cleaning up the core of corrupt judges in this country? We have one such judge in the Michael Flynn case. What if you are a Republican? Is it possible to get a fair trial in DC? We have a lot of stuff to look into to be "fair minded citizens" don't you think? It seems we all do not have a say in what is fair now. The mob will tell us and we must obey.

Finally how can you call a social worker into a situation where some 6 foot 5 inch monster bad ass mentally ill man or woman is beating the hell out of everyone that crosses their path? What about the innocent civilians getting beaten up or killed? The mistake made in my opinion by the cop that was killed in the story above is that he should have used deadly force or shot the perp in the leg when the tasers didn't work. There is no way anyone can deal with crazy violent people sometimes. You couldn't talk that guy down. No actor to duplicate the horror everyone felt in that McDonalds that day. Did the judge let this guy go saying make sure you take your meds earlier in the day? Those people need to be locked up and when they cannot be controlled everything is out the window relating to making a non violent arrest. How can anyone trust that a mentally ill person will take their meds? Often the people who come up with that insane idea are the people who criticize the police.

How many people who were marching and looting during this spectacle throughout the nation especially at night have violent criminal records? Doesn't anyone care? How many times have they been arrested in the past? I want the details before forming any opinion on police behavior. People are so interested in details every time a police officer might fart so why is this not a two way street in the spirit of "fairness". While watching Fox News at night I kept wondering how parents could allow their teens to mingle with some of those big strong agitated people who appeared to be very dangerous. Of course CNN is very selective to fit the pre selected story line and they do not show the bad people throwing fire balls.

How would it feel to be hit full force with a brick? Oh nobody interested maybe. The 60 Secret Service officers can tell you how that felt. They have to suck it up and take it while be condemned by the cowardly media. Who is behind all of this? Some people are pulling the strings. I hope the Federal government finds out quickly before this country is ruined.

Loss of civil control is the goal. You have to be really stupid not to know that. So why would it be wrong for people in charge to limit demonstrations to 1 day. That is it no more marching allowed. One day should do it not one or two or three weeks. That is insane and shows we have no leadership in local or State government.

Why is it that the Washington Post continues to provide articles about how great it would be to create an authoritarian government? I like Amazon but why shouldn't people who do not want an authoritarian government stop giving Amazon any business? Isn't it a coincidence that so many articles appeared like that before all this destruction occurred? Sorry CNN violent acts should not be part of a peaceful protest. Didn't they say on that network that it is OK to loot and burn buildings down? Shouldn't that network and other media be held responsible legally for all the damage throughout the nation? It is as if people were waiting for an incident to ignite hell on Earth. I see the Post quotes a professor at NYU often. I wonder if anyone has investigated this guy to see if he knows the people behind creating the hate? Today the group to hate of course are all White people. Tomorrow it might be another group. Maybe the Jews are next. They were the target during the "KnockDown Movement". How quickly people forget that happened. Ever wonder why the major networks would not report on that?

We already have the best type of governmental system which is supposed to be based on individualism. Judge people as individuals not how they look instead of generalizing where one can never find truth. Only people wanting power want people to do that type of thing. They have achieved success and could care less how many people they have hurt. The failure in big cities rests with the leaders of local governments. They have failed the poor people for 50 years and are trying to divert the blame somewhere else and always to Trump who actually has helped poor people get jobs. A lot of people know that but the news media loves to keep unrest going as long as possible. They are most to blame more than the police or White folks. At least that is what I think as of today. PEACE!!

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