LeBron is the greatest player of all time...

[Oracle]

Jordan is only one of the most successful, others have had more success!

[Oracle]

They need to take religion and politics out of the game!

1. Players need to stop saying that God helped them win. Seriously, God don't give a crap who the champs are.

2. Drop the National Anthem, it has nothing to do with football, it's politics plain and simple, and belongs in the Olympics where we're making a politically homer statement.

[Sparma]

I agree that MJ's the GOAT, so we've got that in common. I'm afraid I'm the one who's pitched Curry over Thomas (Thomas had a short peak, and shot roughly as well as Ish). Sounds like I'm getting another diagnosis of my sanity there.

That aside, here's a recurrent point you make that I regard as genuinely insulting: "I just simply refuse to go numbers alone and really can't understand why some of you are doing it...."

I'm not just going by the numbers. Two examples. First, I'll confess that I mainly saw Laimbeer play on TV in the playoffs. Like others, I've had the occasion to refresh my memory by way of the 30/30 special. I know that Laimbeer played a lot better than he looked even at the time. By today's standards, he looks so athletically underequipped, that I seriously wonder if he could make an NBA roster today, 30 years after his peak. So there's an eye test for you. Secondly, you may remember that AD is such a one man wrecking crew on the offensive boards that he allows his teammates to cheat a split second in getting back, leading to good Piston defensive numbers against fastbreaks, even though they're not good one on one. Laimbeer played in a different era, with a great one on one D team. He didn't have to pull AD's trick, but nor would have been able to. That's another visual observation. In this case, it's connected with a Pistons number (their success v fast breaks) that's otherwise hard to explain.

I prefer winners to losers too. That factors into my evaluation. It's one of several considerations though. Big Bob Horry had plenty of big moments, one of which is indelibly imprinted into the memory. Some question the notion of being clutch. But Horry seems to embody it. But he doesn't rank that high when comparing NBA big men.

George Karl, a fellow North Carolina guy with MJ, beaten by him in the finals of Chicago v Seattle, made an interesting observation about the LeBron-MJ comparison recently: LeBron's more gifted, but Michael's more successful. I agree. As said, I'm with you that MJ's the GOAT. But let's give LeBron his due. He's bigger, as Karl pointed out and, I add, he can do things that MJ couldn't. He too would crush a teleported MJ one on one, but MJ's the goat.

One of my premises is that athletes become, what, more athletic over time, bigger, faster, stronger. We know this for a fact where we can measure it, eg, in Olympic track and field, and swimming. Team sports are more complicated. But the premise holds. If the Laimbeer of yore could make an NBA roster today, he couldn't 20 years from now. Bill's greatness can still be acknowledged, but by taking context in account.

You speak of an "era that is softer than cotton balls...." It's a whole different game, with centers usually playing a less role than in the olden days. I don't know if players count as softer because they're more bonded than in the olden days: I doubt the Warriors vacate the court early if the Rockets beat them, a la the Pistons v the Bulls. But you mention the rule changes yourself. Drummond could easily shove Laimbeer out of position if given more latitude. He'd clean up in the olden days. And Boban would be an All Star. Wennington today? He's be playing in Europe along with Duckworth, and maybe with Laimbeer himself. A Kareem in his prime would do real damage today, but then Laimbeer was hardly playing him in the finals in his prime.

The olden days were great, but, as an aging guy, I need to remember that they were the olden days. Time's marched on, and that's not all bad. For one thing, we've never seen an athlete like Drummond play center for the Pistons. Why not enjoy that, when there's so much to be miserable about?

With all this talk of championship you must be able to make a clear decision between Big Bobs, WTF.  It's gotta be Big Bob Horry over Big Bob Lanier all the way for you, Wise!  I'll stick with Big Bob Lanier myself.

There's a lot that goes into assessing and comparing players, especially across time.  Let's not get hung up on one facet out of the many that needs to be considered and weighed.

I definitely prefer winners over losers for certain and agree 100% there's a lot that goes into assessing players across time and this is exactly why I don't just stop at the numbers and say that most current players are greater than past players.  It seem one of the points used to defend AD often is who he hasn't played with/for.   

What doesn't get tossed in the equation which is a big reason for my debating this is the level of talent during each period across times.  This isn't just about AD it's about most current players.  Somewhere I read Curry was better than Zeke and I almost threw up it's these insane statement like this that get under my skin. 

When I say Bill is better I don't do it looking at it base on stats, it clearly base on the level of difficulty it took to achieve those less impressive stats and numbers of current NBA players such as AD in this case.  I've seen all our past greats play live and in person so I witnessed each era and each player for myself.  I 've seen Bob with the Bucks against our Pistons, I've seen Bob as a Pistons. I've seen the careers of all 4 (Bob, Bill, Ben, Andre) just looking at the names Andre doesn't seem to fit 

Clearly AD is the most under achieving out of the 4, and he's underachieving in a era that is softer than cotton balls and still not getting it done.  As great as his stats are he is still underachieving and 2 years behind where he should be.  

IMO the level of difficulty factor is always the deciding factor for me I can say in many scenarios in and outside of sports.  Curry is not better than Zeke, Bron isn't better than MJ, and I don't think AD is better than Bill or Ben.  It easier to say that MJ, and Zeke playing in todays game under these softer rules would dominate this current league, it hard to argue a player today going back to tougher times and the league and having the same success.  

The second telling factor for me is the entire mental approach towards the game from attitude to effort.  I just simply refuse to go numbers alone and really can't understand why some of you are doing it knowing the same thing and seeing the same things first hand.  I could understand if I was debating this with a bunch of 20 years old who knows only this current league but honestly you, Murph, and Oracle  I'm surprised and shocked.

[WTF]

With all this talk of championship you must be able to make a clear decision between Big Bobs, WTF.  It's gotta be Big Bob Horry over Big Bob Lanier all the way for you, Wise!  I'll stick with Big Bob Lanier myself.

There's a lot that goes into assessing and comparing players, especially across time.  Let's not get hung up on one facet out of the many that needs to be considered and weighed.

I definitely prefer winners over losers for certain and agree 100% there's a lot that goes into assessing players across time and this is exactly why I don't just stop at the numbers and say that most current players are greater than past players.  It seem one of the points used to defend AD often is who he hasn't played with/for.   

What doesn't get tossed in the equation which is a big reason for my debating this is the level of talent during each period across times.  This isn't just about AD it's about most current players.  Somewhere I read Curry was better than Zeke and I almost threw up it's these insane statement like this that get under my skin. 

When I say Bill is better I don't do it looking at it base on stats, it clearly base on the level of difficulty it took to achieve those less impressive stats and numbers of current NBA players such as AD in this case.  I've seen all our past greats play live and in person so I witnessed each era and each player for myself.  I 've seen Bob with the Bucks against our Pistons, I've seen Bob as a Pistons. I've seen the careers of all 4 (Bob, Bill, Ben, Andre) just looking at the names Andre doesn't seem to fit 

Clearly AD is the most under achieving out of the 4, and he's underachieving in a era that is softer than cotton balls and still not getting it done.  As great as his stats are he is still underachieving and 2 years behind where he should be.  

IMO the level of difficulty factor is always the deciding factor for me I can say in many scenarios in and outside of sports.  Curry is not better than Zeke, Bron isn't better than MJ, and I don't think AD is better than Bill or Ben.  It easier to say that MJ, and Zeke playing in todays game under these softer rules would dominate this current league, it hard to argue a player today going back to tougher times and the league and having the same success.  

The second telling factor for me is the entire mental approach towards the game from attitude to effort.  I just simply refuse to go numbers alone and really can't understand why some of you are doing it knowing the same thing and seeing the same things first hand.  I could understand if I was debating this with a bunch of 20 years old who knows only this current league but honestly you, Murph, and Oracle  I'm surprised and shocked.

[cool breeze]

The Drummond supporters are no more relentless than the Drummond bashers.  In fact, I wouldn't even post on the subject, if Don didn't bash him in every other page long post with no paragraph breaks.


I vote for a PG in the 2nd round.  I'd go for Ellie Okobo or De'Antony Melton (if they're still available), and more realistically Devonte Graham or Jevon Carter...in that order.

Sorry about the lack of paragraph breaks Murph. The reality is that the Pistons have a lousy team that had trouble playing Phoenix who tried like hell to position themselves to snag the number one pick in the draft. All the drama relating to the Pistons since AD and RJ arrived has placed most Piston fans facing reality that there is no hope for this team as long as AD and RJ continue to be the big men on campus. Neither are worth much in my opinion but there are faithful supporters who feel that they have been targeted improperly. I only try to point out why I wouldn't want RJ and AD on my team if I were involved in the coaching staff. They are both impossible to coach in the NBA. If they were in college a coach could just sit them on the bench. But with those contracts, there is no way any coach can bench them or force them to play team orientated basketball. It is good that you like AD because there is no changing things as long as this owner has a crush on AD.

I would like to talk a bit about the other chemistry killer that will be around for awhile longer until his contract expires. Reggie Jackson is the sole of the Pistons or at least that he what he thinks. Meanwhile I was watching the Houston - Golden State game last night and noticed that both Curry and Paul are the real deal. They are both effective defenders and work extremely hard at it. Some fans think that somehow the Pistons can win when Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond often play defense with their hands down below their waist and SLACK. Slackers never win. We have slackers who all coaches have to worry about the question of if they will be "engaged" from game to game. Do they show leadership qualities that you see on winning teams? They both lack the qualities that I admire. You can admire them if you want but I am not drinking the cool aid.

Due to the contracts of AD and RJ along with BG now, it will be impossible for the Pistons to ever get a top tier 2 guard or back up point guard. Smith is OK for the regular season. He is fun to watch but would be a liability if Detroit ever does make the playoffs. But he is better than Reggie Jackson in my opinion. The Pistons have Reggie Jackson as their leader who sucks up to AD because he knows the owner is the protector of AD when it comes to any attempt by coaches to force AD to provide more energy on defense. AD only wants to play offense so that is a tough challenge for any coach who takes over this team. Sorry but I can not cheer for them anymore. Character does matter to a lot of fans.

It is interesting that Steve Kerr's coaching staff managed to get two rookies into this last game in the 2nd quarter for significant playing time. Of course Kerr was a superior GM for the Suns before he became an NBA coach. His mind works like a computer but even better, Kerr knows how to communicate and help provide confidence in young players. Meanwhile, the Pistons under SVG did everything they could to make the young players suffer and lose what confidence they had in themselves. Henry Ellenson has talent but often looked lost on defense last season which was his 2nd year not his rookie season. To me he looked about the same as he did as a rookie. Whoever takes command of this team might not have real command maybe much like who rules Iran. Is it the elected leader or the religious leaders? Will the hired staff have any say of will the owner butt in when a good trade opportunity comes up involving AD?

[Sparma]

With all this talk of championship you must be able to make a clear decision between Big Bobs, WTF.  It's gotta be Big Bob Horry over Big Bob Lanier all the way for you, Wise!  I'll stick with Big Bob Lanier myself.

There's a lot that goes into assessing and comparing players, especially across time.  Let's not get hung up on one facet out of the many that needs to be considered and weighed.

Man you Drummond supporters are relentless I'll give you all that.  Numbers and excuses 


Oracle you're right put him on either team and he'll likely be all world mainly because he surely been kicked in the ass and properly motivated doubt if LB or Chuck would have been putting up with his ****.  

Still you all can't sway me solely on numbers and I'm not buying in all the excuse. Fact remains none of you can truly say he's built of Championship Clothe so I don't understand why you all are standing so strongly on this.  It seem to be everyone fault but AD's let you all tell it.  Deep down I think you all know I'm right and it'll just hurt to admit that those things I'm saying are true.  

We're paying 125 to AD, you can't say that we didn't more bang for our bucks in paying both Bill and Ben pennies in comparison,  Wasn't Ben undrafted, wasn't Bill like a late second forget who they played with and for they didn't come in the league with great expectation but yet exceeded any and all expectation at the end the day.   

I don't understand why all of you want to continue avoiding the obvious when it staring you dead in the face.  What do you think AD would if Cartwright or Parrish punched him in the face?  LMAO!!!!   He'll probably cry.    Do any you defending him truly believe he has Pistons DNA?  and you all knows what that means and it clearly separate the men form the boys.  We know Bill and Ben had it and perhaps they had it all along but one thing for sure is that AD doesn't.   

Let's not even argue by position anymore lets argue franchise player at any position.  Zeke franchise,  Hill franchise one thing I do know is that franchise players drag their team to at least the playoffs.  I've have heard some put AD in the HOF, some the best center this franchise ever had, greatest stats ever so on and so on.  You all want me to see these things with only the validation of numbers alone forget all the tangibles/intangibles.   You all make me want to scream!!!!!

[Murph]

The Drummond supporters are no more relentless than the Drummond bashers. In fact, I wouldn't even post on the subject, if Don didn't bash him in every other page long post with no paragraph breaks.


I vote for a PG in the 2nd round. I'd go for Ellie Okobo or De'Antony Melton (if they're still available), and more realistically Devonte Graham or Jevon Carter...in that order.

[WTF]

Man you Drummond supporters are relentless I'll give you all that.  Numbers and excuses 


Oracle you're right put him on either team and he'll likely be all world mainly because he surely been kicked in the ass and properly motivated doubt if LB or Chuck would have been putting up with his ****.  

Still you all can't sway me solely on numbers and I'm not buying in all the excuse. Fact remains none of you can truly say he's built of Championship Clothe so I don't understand why you all are standing so strongly on this.  It seem to be everyone fault but AD's let you all tell it.  Deep down I think you all know I'm right and it'll just hurt to admit that those things I'm saying are true.  

We're paying 125 to AD, you can't say that we didn't more bang for our bucks in paying both Bill and Ben pennies in comparison,  Wasn't Ben undrafted, wasn't Bill like a late second forget who they played with and for they didn't come in the league with great expectation but yet exceeded any and all expectation at the end the day.   

I don't understand why all of you want to continue avoiding the obvious when it staring you dead in the face.  What do you think AD would if Cartwright or Parrish punched him in the face?  LMAO!!!!   He'll probably cry.    Do any you defending him truly believe he has Pistons DNA?  and you all knows what that means and it clearly separate the men form the boys.  We know Bill and Ben had it and perhaps they had it all along but one thing for sure is that AD doesn't.   

Let's not even argue by position anymore lets argue franchise player at any position.  Zeke franchise,  Hill franchise one thing I do know is that franchise players drag their team to at least the playoffs.  I've have heard some put AD in the HOF, some the best center this franchise ever had, greatest stats ever so on and so on.  You all want me to see these things with only the validation of numbers alone forget all the tangibles/intangibles.   You all make me want to scream!!!!!

[deusXango]

I remember the year Drummond had at UConn.  I followed the team closely that year, and watched many games.  Drummond came in as a true freshman.  He had his nose broken and suffered a mild concussion in a pre-season practice, and had to wear a mask the whole season, which inhibited his play.  Only last year did Drummond have surgery to fix that broken nose.

Still, Drummond started for UConn and put up some very respectable numbers.  He played 28 mpg, and in that time he scored 10 ppg, hauled down 8 rpg, and blocked 3 bpg.  He also shot 54% from the floor.

Jim Calhoun was still coach and the team went 20-14, and were led by Shabazz Napier and Jeremy Lamb, who were sophomores.


I'm not sure why Drummond's draft stock fell that year, but that was a great stroke of luck for the Pistons.  We needed a big man, and I was lobbying for Joe to take John Henson at #9, because I couldn't image Drummond would still be available.  But sure enough, Drummond slipped to #9, and Joe snapped him up.  

As you know, Drummond has had an outstanding NBA career so far.  In 6 seasons, Drummond has racked-up 46 career win shares, which places him 3rd in the draft, behind only Anthony Davis, who was taken #1 over-all, and Damien Lillard, who was taken at #6.

Through the course of their careers, Drummond has way out-performed Kidd-Gilchrist (taken at #2), Beal (#3), Dion Waiters (#4), Thomas Robinson (no longer in the league at #5). Barnes (#7), and Terrence Ross (#8].

Drummond was clearly one of the best picks of Joe's career, if not the best.  

Whew! I don't know what took you so long Murph, but I'm glad you've come along with some FACTS about Drummond and not posting with delusional hatred or pure jealousy (he's making enough money to guarantee the Pistons a championship). I'm glad to have the leagues top rebounder representing Detroit and it doesn't matter to me that he gets them like Moses Malone got his; Moses was a champion, just not at age 24. Thanks again Murph.

How does names like Jerry Stackhouse, and Becky Hammon move ahead of past Pistons champions who deserve to at least be in the conversation for coaching the team...yes, I'm talking Bill Laimbeer and Rick Mahorn, who're untried and not ancient. As it stands now Detroit's big men are the strength of the team and I can't imagine anyone mentioned getting more out of them than Bill and Rick.

The greatest Piston that ever played in the red, white, and blue, who has front office experience, loves this town and team, continues to be overlooked for the position of President or GM. Isiah Lord Thomas has not done anything in Detroit to be ignored, at a time when he's needed. Bill Davidson has passed on, the Davidson family has sold the team, and Tom Wilson works for another concern, so what's wrong with Tom Gores? Isiah Thomas promised the city of Detroit a championship and delivered...how quickly some forget, right Mr. Gores. Basketball fans needed something to cheer for when he came along. We now need hope and something to cheer for. Shane Battier to the rescue? For those that have no faith in Isiah, there's Chauncey!

Without considering Drummond, Griffin, Kennard, and Bullock for trade, does every Piston fan hold the belief that the remainder of the Pistons aren't worth a first round pick in the range of 5-7? This won't fly because I didn't include Reggie Jackson in the core.

[Murph]

I think now that SVG is gone, it's time to face up to reality on Stanley Johnson.  He might develop into a useful role player, but he should probably not start again for the Pistons.  The Pistons already have several better options at SG and SF to round out the starting rotation.  

The 'Stones should start Kennard, who showed a great deal of promise last season, at SG, and Reggie Bullock at SF.  We need the shooters to spread the floor, and SJ clearly cannot now, and probably never will be able to shoot.

Furthermore, the 'Stones should re-sign James Ennis to a reasonable contract as insurance at SF, in case Stanley Johnson never improves.  I hate to say this about a 22 year old kid, but after 3 years in the league, this might be as good as Stanley's ever going to get.

[Murph]

I remember the year Drummond had at UConn.  I followed the team closely that year, and watched many games.  Drummond came in as a true freshman.  He had his nose broken and suffered a mild concussion in a pre-season practice, and had to wear a mask the whole season, which inhibited his play.  Only last year did Drummond have surgery to fix that broken nose.

Still, Drummond started for UConn and put up some very respectable numbers.  He played 28 mpg, and in that time he scored 10 ppg, hauled down 8 rpg, and blocked 3 bpg.  He also shot 54% from the floor.

Jim Calhoun was still coach and the team went 20-14, and were led by Shabazz Napier and Jeremy Lamb, who were sophomores.


I'm not sure why Drummond's draft stock fell that year, but that was a great stroke of luck for the Pistons.  We needed a big man, and I was lobbying for Joe to take John Henson at #9, because I couldn't image Drummond would still be available.  But sure enough, Drummond slipped to #9, and Joe snapped him up.  

As you know, Drummond has had an outstanding NBA career so far.  In 6 seasons, Drummond has racked-up 46 career win shares, which places him 3rd in the draft, behind only Anthony Davis, who was taken #1 over-all, and Damien Lillard, who was taken at #6.

Through the course of their careers, Drummond has way out-performed Kidd-Gilchrist (taken at #2), Beal (#3), Dion Waiters (#4), Thomas Robinson (no longer in the league at #5). Barnes (#7), and Terrence Ross (#8].

Drummond was clearly one of the best picks of Joe's career, if not the best.  

[Oracle]

There is no "I" in TEAM Bro!

LeBron took scrub teams farther than Jordan ever did, but LeBron also lost with better talent than Jordan ever did... in short it's complicated, they're both great, IMO.

Where your thoughts on Drummond completely fall apart for me is when you think about these facts.

1. Jordan was a regular loser until the talent around him reached a certain level.
2. Laimbeer would be a loser, and was, until he got Zeke & company.
3. Big Ben didn't win until Chauncey became a PG instead of a SG, and he had Sheed to help on both ends, but he was GREAT(see video)
4. The coaching for all of these guys was light years ahead of anything we have had in recent years

You put Drummond on ANY of those teams and you'd also be talking about highlights in big moments, but numbers off the chart!

We have to live in today, but like Bogie said in Casablanca... we'll always have Paris 

[WTF]

What do we remember most about Big Ben and Bill?  We remember Big Moments and not Big Numbers in clutch situations.   You know when AD numbers should have matter?  The last 20 games of the season when a playoff berth was on the line and those numbers lead them there.   How little do those numbers matter because if Ben or Bill only average 5 rebounds the entire season in the same situation rest assure that in the same 20 games remaining under the same situation both would have will themselves to average 10 if it meant getting in the team in the playoffs.  


Truthfully I can't tell you about the games AD had great numbers because they came at a meaningless time, now imagine how memorable his numbers would be if they consistently happened in the last 20 games of the season and got them not only into the playoffs but a 4th or 5th seeding.  Maybe AD showed up in half of the last 20 with almost all those games resulting in failure.  It's moments that define greatness not stats, having both stats and moments that makes you a champion.  Where are AD big moments? We already know that Bill and Ben had plenty and this is why again AD is not better, if all you want to do is debate numbers then I agree AD has better numbers all day every day but he's having them without real impact. 

[WTF]

Here's what I see 

I see that AD gets his numbers against subpar talent without truly dominating the game in a manner that results in wins at the end of the day. Yet I also see in reflecting that Bill held his own against some of the league best NBA centers season after season.  Sparma you might be correct if AD and Bill were playing a one on one but in the context of team I don't think AD could.  Just my opinion 

Again it's just my thoughts that the best talents overall resided in 80's and 90's era where winning and stats were the most difficult and the league was 10 times tougher.  Lets reverse the teleporting and send AD back into the 80's and 90's or even to Big Ben time.  Do anyone honestly think AD would be holding it down with the likes of the Kareem, Dream, Ewing, or Shaq and Gasol and that just mentioning a small fraction of excellent centers.  Often AD desire, will and mental toughness get brought up and we do this knowing AD faces subpar talent.  We never question Bill's or Ben toughness or will I mean never ever.  

I know I argue with a ton of folks about MJ vs Bron and think Bron should never be mention along with MJ, so certainly I wouldn't say AD's name in a sentence with MJ in any form.  I remember MJ 63 points and his early struggles but who was he losing to?  Stats are beautiful but when I saw MJ get 63 and average 37 while losing you saw the greatness coming. So my question is do you see the same greatness coming when AD put up his numbers? Likely Not

AD stats are better than Ben and Bill but when we looked at Ben we could already see that he was a big defensive play away or big rebound away from winning the game for us.  When we saw Bill we knew he was a big rebound away or big shot away from winning a game for so what I'm saying is that AD numbers don't knowingly provide me with the thoughts of big moments happening like it did with Ben and Bill.

I'm saying we can't keep looking at numbers without looking at the rest of it.  Words like impact, win, desire should all be included, the who the what the when should be considered.  
 
Let me also say this that as a diehard lions fan that watching Barry Sanders run was a thing of beauty to watch but it was equally painful watching him fail to gain a single yard in a crucial moment.  Barry numbers are in the record books but in his 10 years those numbers didn't get a playoff win.  In some cases I might argue Billy Sims was better though his number aren't as great.

[Oracle]

Don, your hate is obvious! The hate you rained down on KCP is most striking because following the same logic, you should be ALL over Stanley Johnson like a Trump Tweet because he's 10 times worse than KCP on his best day!

You also rain down a lot of hate towards Drummond, can it be because they are both Joe Dumars picks? What happened, did Donut Joe stick a shoe phone up your azz or something   ... can you hear me now???

Speaking of KCP, he really should have taken SVG's offer, next season could see him taking half of what he got from the Lakers, but there is an opportunity for him to get to the Spurs, who are said to have a great shooting coach. If I was him I'd look to get there or to the Sixers, both would be good fits for different reasons. Here's more,

One of the league’s more underrated 3-and-D shooting guards who’s just now entering his prime, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, will have a complicated market once he hits unrestricted free agency this summer due to the lack of spending money league-wide.

The Georgia product is coming off a solid year that saw him average 13.4 points, 5.2 rebounds, 1.4 steals and 2.1 triples nightly on respectable 42.6/38.3/78.9 shooting splits.

Those decent totals, plus the fact he’s still just 25 years old, could help Caldwell-Pope land long-term security this offseason, though not at the big-money price that many similarly talented free agents received in the summer of 2016.

Speaking of the Sixers, Paul Pierce says the best locations for LeBron are either the Sixers or Houston. With LeBron, the Sixers should become a favorite in the east, and with Houston, LeBron would give them their best shot at dominating in the west... interesting stuff.

“It all depends on, I think with LeBron it’s about the opportunity to win a title,” Pierce was quoted as saying on NESN. “The only teams that I see that make sense for him are possibly Houston or Philadelphia. Those guys instantly have a chance to beat, knockoff, or win a championship, with that roster, if you have LeBron.”

[Sparma]

Thanks for that clarification, BallinD.  I agree that there's a big question as to how AD's impressive stats correspond with Pistons' success, or lack thereof.

I'm still inclined to think "stats stuffing" is ordinarily used as I described, but I didn't include the effect on the team that you highlight, that the individual looks good on the stats sheet with limited boost to the team.

As I hear some claims on the forum, they're quite a bit looser than yours.  Wise appears to be arguing that big numbers are insignificant if they're not paired with wins.  I lived in Chicago when Jordan arrived.  From memory, he averaged 37.1 ppg, but played on a losing team that eeked into the playoffs, losing to Boston while MJ scored 63.  I'm not equated MJ to AD, but am cautioning about quick conclusions regarding stats and numbers.

Wise sees it as "insane" that I think AD would destroy a teleported Laimbeer.  Again, Laimbeer was great in his context.  So was Jerry Kramer, but I doubt the Green Bay Ice Bowl great could crack the Lions current O-line.  Doesn't mean those Lions will be joining Kramer in the HoF, just that we need to be careful with comparisons across time.  Just heard of a St. Louis Cardinal, Jordan Hicks, who throws a 105 mph sinking (!!) fastball.  Some see Walter Johnson as the AL's greater pitcher.  Evidently, he rarely threw anything but fastballs.  Watching old footage it's hard to believe that Big Train's all arm delivery could get him up to 90 mph.  So in one sense I'm going to say that Jordan Hicks is a better pitcher that Walter Johnson was.  A teleported WJ couldn't hang with him.  In other sense, Jordan Hicks can't hang with him.

I'm saying (a) that a teleported Laimbeer couldn't hang with AD, and (b) that taking context into account, we're moving into the need for a real conversation as to who the 2nd best Pistons center is behind big Bob.

I do take the (BallinD) comeback seriously: if AD's so good, why isn't there more of a boost in productivity.  One response, that I'd need to check on, is that Laimbeer and Wallace both had losing  records outside of Detroit (and they were around AD's current age when they arrived here).  Winning's complicated, involving an entire system.  It's rare that an individual makes a massive immediate, demonstrable, causal difference to the winning record of their NBA team: Kareem and LeBron, but not MJ, are two of the exceptions.

Don provides an instance of using the stats stuffing idea [overly] loosely, describing AD as rebounding 4 of his own missed shots.  That sounds like a rarity, but what I would call crummy shooting rather than stats stuffing.   Taken in BallinD's's sense things get sticky.  It's tremendously valuable to the team that AD regains so many of his own misses, rather than having them be TOs to the opponents; still, in agreement with BD's meaning, that's an instance where you'd like greater productivity to go with all the bounds.

Don, you keep mentioning what Connecticut coaches say about Drummond.  Of course, I think he's improved a lot since then.  But where are you getting this inside dope?

I'll take full blame for maybe a loose term: "stat stuffer."  So we're clear, I meant getting numbers without winning results; the games where a player gets numbers but doesn't get wins and the numbers appear more important than the win.  

Dre has said he wanted to lead the league in rebounding.  He didn't proclaim he wanted to win a round in the playoffs.  He I don't think has said he wanted to bring another championship to the Pistons.  I want Dre to succeed and this is not hating, just what I see.  I think he is maybe as interested in stuffing his stats as he is in winning, a different take on the term.  The proof is in the pudding.  I think I can count on two hands, maybe one, the games where I thought Dre "brought it" and noticeably imposed his will on the game to produce a win.  The late season swoons are partly on him as the self-proclaimed leader of the team, with a big assist from SVG.  He and Weggie, I believe have dogged it in the past, but part of that is that maybe Weggie is just broken down now and Dre has lost his PnR buddy to injury again and again.  Can he turn it around on his own?  With Blake?  I hope so!

I wouldn't call AD a stat stuffer but his numbers are without substance, sure they're pretty on the surface but deep down what do they mean when your team only gets 39 wins? Not a damn thing is what it means.  At the end of the day is Gore paying for stats or is he paying for wins?  

We have to stop defending this situation concerning not just AD but the team entirely RJ hasn't earned his salary since day one, SJ hasn't met expectation of being an 8th pick in the draft,  Gore has failed to deliver a contender and we need to stop with the excuses, accolades, cuddling and accepting failure of this team being able to contend.   

The focus need to be on all the things that are wrong with this team and these players. SVG been fired and thank goodness he has but there's a ton of **** needing addressing.  Sure it's okay to acknowledge numbers but don't let it blind you to the facts, don't let it make you soft on assessing the players or the team as a whole.  This team is overwhelmingly underachieving considering what's being giving out in salaries and AD salary put him front and center and he needs to step his game up period.  

Numbers in todays game don't even equate to the numbers of the 80s or 90s.  Really who and the hell is AD playing against because i don't see anything close to the level of the opponents Bill and Ben faced.  This is just another reason why AD numbers don't mean crap it so reminds me of the Bron vs MJ stuff when we all know Bron has never seen the level of talent MJ has.   

Here's a test if you don't believe me pick the top 25-30  players from each era and then ask yourself what 25 to 30 are better.  Better yet just see how fast you can pick them.  I'm almost willing to bet you'll struggle to get 15 out of this era.  So numbers while not meaningless they're simply not the whole story I don't care AD is not the players Bill and Ben were.  Saying Bill couldn't handle AD is insane when Bill handle far better players than AD, and we know what a Big Ben in his prime would do to AD so lets just stop it.

[cool breeze]

So Don picks the two best defensive players in Detroit Pistons history...Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace....and then criticizes Drummond because he doesn't defend as well as they do.  

Although, even Don has to admit that Drummond is the best rebounder in Pistons history....better than Rodman, Wallace or Bill Laimbeer.


And let me turn this argument around.  I'm sure that Don would argue that Stanley Johnson's development has been ruined, or at least seriously damaged by SVG.  Johnson came into the league with huge upside potential.  Not only has he not realized his upside, he's actually regressed.  SJ is a worse shooter and rebounder now than when he came into the league, thanks largely to SVG.

So doesn't it stand to reason that SVG has damaged the development of other Pistons as well, such as Drummond?  


Finally my opinion has always been that Drummond is not the brightest bulb on the porch.  However, he is one of the most athletic centers in the NBA.  Drummond is a superior defender, due to his athleticism alone.

But what if we had a competent, defensive minded coach who could get through to Drummond?  What if we had a coach who could actually improve Drummond's footwork, anticipation on defense, and teach him when to switch or not switch on defense?  If Drummond could improve the mental aspect of his game to go along with his athleticism, he would become an even better defender than he already is.

The glass is half full on Andre Drummond.

Are you kidding Murph? Ask AD's coaches at UCONN about his attitude towards listening to any coach when it comes to eliminating flaws when playing defense. AD never listened was content to always be in foul trouble. Nothing has changed with the coaches he has played for since arriving with the Pistons. SVG was a defensive minded head coach. Stanley Johnson's weakness as a college player was his defense especially when he first arrive at Arizona. Since playing for SVG, Johnson has become an above average on the ball defender and a superior help defender. His lack of success as a shooter has been caused by SVG's assistants who coached the guards where Johnson's former one handed release was scraped in favor of his current dysfunctional release where both hands are on the ball. Funny isn't it that Kevin Durant always releases the ball with one hand. If Johnson doesn't change back to his former release form his career is in jeopardy. But I only bring up Johnson because he has always been a coachable player compared to AD's history of being very difficult to coach. Perhaps AD's basketball aptitude is way below average and he is trying to understand the rotation system but so far as not been able to read and react to opponent plays. Maybe he is trying hard and is not opposed to listening and absorbing information by coaches. But something is clearly wrong and I think being AD has such a long history of screwing up defensive rotations especially in pick and roll situations, it has a lot to do with his basic lack of interest in ever becoming an elite defender. Murph AD still doesn't anticipate well enough to box out his man when opponent shots go up. He has never done it so far and I watch him all the time hoping he will do it at least one time. Opponent teams crash the boards more against the Pistons because of this defect in AD's game.

AD is not a winning type player and doesn't have a winning type of personality. He is content to be happy and dance in pre game and then play a little bit to build up the stats he concentrates on building. What ever happened to THE TEAM and what AD should be doing for his team? AD wants stats while anticipating the amount of his next contract. News flash Murph. I brought up two Piston heroes Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman because the Pistons were winners and those two had a lot to do with helping their team win and they never secured contracts like AD the loser. Unless the Pistons get one big guy that opponents fear as a paint protector and defensive rebounder, then things will continue like they are in Piston land. What is sickening to me is the video of AD working on his new step back jumper. What will opponents do now when AD threatens opposing centers with his amazing baseline hook shot or throws up the step back jumper? How exciting it will be for AD. Of course it won't be exciting for his teammates who can't stand playing with him. The Pistons need less offense out of AD and more defense from him. That is what his coaches and teammates want out of him but no way will that happen. Was AD embarrassed when Whiteside got that tip in over AD two seasons ago to take the Pistons out of the playoffs? Think about that for just a minute and realize that it had no effect at all. What kind of basketball player at any level who was embarrassed because he forgot to box out his man who then made an easy tip in over him in the biggest game of the season and you come back the next season and still do not box out on the defensive boards or show that you are nobody to mess with if you enter the painted area.

How about the players only meeting where AD's teammates were on both RJ and AD for ball hogging and slacking on defense. Most players would come out of that meeting fired up and tell their teammates that they will be working a lot harder on defense. Not AD and RJ the two close buddies who like to leave the dirty work to others. AD was AWOL on defense in many games during the first quarter this last season. The painty was wide open because AD was the last man back on defense. Do you think the coaching staff was happy with his effort or his lack of advancement as a defensive player? This experiment should be over. AD has been a huge part of the cause of the Pistons losing since he arrived because he is not a winning type player like a current guy like D. Green or Anthony Davis. He is not worth the money but could get the Pistons back on track if the Pistons could make a great trade with him as the bate.

Answer this question. Do you like watching AD play basketball Murph. If so then more power to you. I don't enjoy watching him because he is not a smart player. I like watching smart players not players who are dumb as a box of rocks or have attitude issues. Take your pick. AD has seldom been on a winning team at any level. He is the 2nd highest paid player on our team. It is embarrassing for fans to support any team that has players who do not show that they are giving everything they have to win or players who just play dumb. When has AD ever said after another losing season ended that he was going to hire a defensive coach to work with him over the summer?( Last season he said all he needed was more rest.) The answer is never so I do not expect him to ever provide what the Pistons need most. It doesn't make me feel any better to find out that AD made another All Star team as a fill in player when his team has a losing record. AD was happy as hell to bask in the glory of the All Star festivities. He slacked off even more on defense when he returned to his team after the All Star break. The NBA games are long but they are even longer for fans when they have to watch AD perform when he tries to defend the pick and roll. I wish the money the Pistons are spending on him could be spent on a point guard and ship RJ to the G League to finish out his career because no team will take on his contract. It is time to hire the first female head coach and a good fit would be the Pistons. Maybe a woman could embarrass AD enough so he might decide to become an elite defender. Or maybe hire his Mother. I'll bet his Mom could get him on the right page. He sure doesn't respond to male coaches. The Pistons need a number on pick. Either hire the woman or trade AD before training camp. Let him shoot the step back jumper for another team.

[BallinD]

I'll take full blame for maybe a loose term: "stat stuffer."  So we're clear, I meant getting numbers without winning results; the games where a player gets numbers but doesn't get wins and the numbers appear more important than the win.  

Dre has said he wanted to lead the league in rebounding.  He didn't proclaim he wanted to win a round in the playoffs.  He I don't think has said he wanted to bring another championship to the Pistons.  I want Dre to succeed and this is not hating, just what I see.  I think he is maybe as interested in stuffing his stats as he is in winning, a different take on the term.  The proof is in the pudding.  I think I can count on two hands, maybe one, the games where I thought Dre "brought it" and noticeably imposed his will on the game to produce a win.  The late season swoons are partly on him as the self-proclaimed leader of the team, with a big assist from SVG.  He and Weggie, I believe have dogged it in the past, but part of that is that maybe Weggie is just broken down now and Dre has lost his PnR buddy to injury again and again.  Can he turn it around on his own?  With Blake?  I hope so!

I wouldn't call AD a stat stuffer but his numbers are without substance, sure they're pretty on the surface but deep down what do they mean when your team only gets 39 wins? Not a damn thing is what it means.  At the end of the day is Gore paying for stats or is he paying for wins?  

We have to stop defending this situation concerning not just AD but the team entirely RJ hasn't earned his salary since day one, SJ hasn't met expectation of being an 8th pick in the draft,  Gore has failed to deliver a contender and we need to stop with the excuses, accolades, cuddling and accepting failure of this team being able to contend.   

The focus need to be on all the things that are wrong with this team and these players. SVG been fired and thank goodness he has but there's a ton of **** needing addressing.  Sure it's okay to acknowledge numbers but don't let it blind you to the facts, don't let it make you soft on assessing the players or the team as a whole.  This team is overwhelmingly underachieving considering what's being giving out in salaries and AD salary put him front and center and he needs to step his game up period.  

Numbers in todays game don't even equate to the numbers of the 80s or 90s.  Really who and the hell is AD playing against because i don't see anything close to the level of the opponents Bill and Ben faced.  This is just another reason why AD numbers don't mean crap it so reminds me of the Bron vs MJ stuff when we all know Bron has never seen the level of talent MJ has.   

Here's a test if you don't believe me pick the top 25-30  players from each era and then ask yourself what 25 to 30 are better.  Better yet just see how fast you can pick them.  I'm almost willing to bet you'll struggle to get 15 out of this era.  So numbers while not meaningless they're simply not the whole story I don't care AD is not the players Bill and Ben were.  Saying Bill couldn't handle AD is insane when Bill handle far better players than AD, and we know what a Big Ben in his prime would do to AD so lets just stop it.

[WTF]

I wouldn't call AD a stat stuffer but his numbers are without substance, sure they're pretty on the surface but deep down what do they mean when your team only gets 39 wins? Not a damn thing is what it means.  At the end of the day is Gore paying for stats or is he paying for wins?  

We have to stop defending this situation concerning not just AD but the team entirely RJ hasn't earned his salary since day one, SJ hasn't met expectation of being an 8th pick in the draft,  Gore has failed to deliver a contender and we need to stop with the excuses, accolades, cuddling and accepting failure of this team being able to contend.   

The focus need to be on all the things that are wrong with this team and these players. SVG been fired and thank goodness he has but there's a ton of **** needing addressing.  Sure it's okay to acknowledge numbers but don't let it blind you to the facts, don't let it make you soft on assessing the players or the team as a whole.  This team is overwhelmingly underachieving considering what's being giving out in salaries and AD salary put him front and center and he needs to step his game up period.  

Numbers in todays game don't even equate to the numbers of the 80s or 90s.  Really who and the hell is AD playing against because i don't see anything close to the level of the opponents Bill and Ben faced.  This is just another reason why AD numbers don't mean crap it so reminds me of the Bron vs MJ stuff when we all know Bron has never seen the level of talent MJ has.   

Here's a test if you don't believe me pick the top 25-30  players from each era and then ask yourself what 25 to 30 are better.  Better yet just see how fast you can pick them.  I'm almost willing to bet you'll struggle to get 15 out of this era.  So numbers while not meaningless they're simply not the whole story I don't care AD is not the players Bill and Ben were.  Saying Bill couldn't handle AD is insane when Bill handle far better players than AD, and we know what a Big Ben in his prime would do to AD so lets just stop it.

[Murph]

So Don picks the two best defensive players in Detroit Pistons history...Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace....and then criticizes Drummond because he doesn't defend as well as they do.  

Although, even Don has to admit that Drummond is the best rebounder in Pistons history....better than Rodman, Wallace or Bill Laimbeer.


And let me turn this argument around.  I'm sure that Don would argue that Stanley Johnson's development has been ruined, or at least seriously damaged by SVG.  Johnson came into the league with huge upside potential.  Not only has he not realized his upside, he's actually regressed.  SJ is a worse shooter and rebounder now than when he came into the league, thanks largely to SVG.

So doesn't it stand to reason that SVG has damaged the development of other Pistons as well, such as Drummond?  


Finally my opinion has always been that Drummond is not the brightest bulb on the porch.  However, he is one of the most athletic centers in the NBA.  Drummond is a superior defender, due to his athleticism alone.

But what if we had a competent, defensive minded coach who could get through to Drummond?  What if we had a coach who could actually improve Drummond's footwork, anticipation on defense, and teach him when to switch or not switch on defense?  If Drummond could improve the mental aspect of his game to go along with his athleticism, he would become an even better defender than he already is.

The glass is half full on Andre Drummond.

[cool breeze]

To me stats "stuffing" implies a purposeful, regular, misleading pattern.  Are we in agreement about the definition?

I'm sure there's an added offensive rebound once in a while, but I think it'd be rare.  Feel free to supply examples going beyond Drummond, because I've got a general interest in the question.    

What Drummond's best at -- offensive rebounding -- has got to be one of the most stats-stuffing-resistant categories around.

I'm issuing a specific challenge for an explanation, rather than denying that AD ever stuffs stats.  We've all seen Centers gather the easy defensive rebound while everyone else heads up court; teammates often defer to the big bounds guys when gathered by a ball on D.  

On the offensive boards, such deference might happen once in a while, but there wouldn't often be occasions for such polite nods to stats stuffing teammates on O.  Whereas plenty of defensive rebounds are cheap, offensive rebounds are usually hard-earned, e.g., by beating an opponent who has inside position on a FT.  Yes, there can be weird bounces, flukes, but I'm not seeing how those would count as stats "stuffing."  Didn't Rondo miss a shot on purpose once in pursuit of an offensive rebound to complete a triple double.  So maybe that would be example, even though it would be highly exceptional?  AD's good at recovering his own misses; maybe some of those don't count as heroic rebounds, but I don't see why they'd count as stats stuffing.

No doubt stats stuffing happens.

Again, on defensive rebounding it happens.  (Here I wonder if Dre does this any more than, say, Ben Wallace who didn't seem to mind collecting a stray ball while not challenged or taking ownership of a bound instead of a teammate who could collect it.)

The major stats stuffing that occurs to me happens on scoring.  We all know of guys who put up a big point total, with a bunch of shots paired.  Wilt had a heck of an efficient night when he scored 100 (eg going 28 of 32 from the line), but evidently he was sheepish about the 60 shots he put up.  At least he was efficient then; plenty of guys with nice points totals are inefficient game after game.

Steals can be an opportunity for stats stuffing too.  I remember AI being accused of putting up impressive steal stats, covering for being a weak defender by taking inordinate chances to intercept balls in passing lanes.  So maybe that's an example.

You can't fake your FT %, but some guys excel at inflating the number of times they get to the line, so maybe that's another form of stats stuff.

But I'm puzzled by the idea of stats stuffing on the offensive boards, even if an occasional offensive bound seems a bit cheap.  How does such stats stuffing on the offensive boards occur?  I'm genuinely stumped, apart from the occasional example that doesn't seem to rise to the level of "stuffing" if my initial description is on track   I used to love to go for rebounds myself, and was happy to collect cheapies; I've gotten flukish bounds on O too, but am having trouble also from my own experience seeing how the notion of stats stuffing applies on the offensive boards.

AD gets a lot of offensive rebounds and that does take effort. I also agree that the accumulation he gets often involves his own missed shots. I have seen AD get 4 offensive rebounds on one offensive possession. Usually coaches glance at stat sheets only to compare what they have seen for themselves in a game knowing already what they need to know. In the NBA it seems that stats are important for agents to sell their client in the next contract negotiations. Rebounding is important and especially defensive rebounding. AD's emphasis is on getting offensive stats. He has never been excited about playing defense and it shows. However, players like Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman did love doing all the little things it takes to be a great defensive rebounder. Rodman's man to man defensive effort and his fighting instincts to make that extra effort to get positioning for the biggest rebounds of a big game was incredible. Many of us call it quick recognition skills where players like Rodman anticipate where the opponent play is going or where opponents are going to crash the offensive boards on missed shots. Rodman had it and Ben Wallace had the right stuff that makes the difference between winning and losing games. That is why I say AD's stats are fools gold. AD's mind does not work as quickly as Rodman's when he plays defense or tries to protect the paint. A big part of opponent's game plans involve crashing the offensive boards because our Pistons have no player with the instincts of Ben Wallace or Dennis Rodman. A cool guy to watch is Drayman Green when Golden State is playing defense. He knows opponent plays and takes makes a supreme effort to outwork everyone in the paint. He is undersized but playing winning basketball. AD is not that kind of player as we all know. If we had just one player who played like Green our Pistons would be a lot more fun to watch. But for now we must be content to listen to the announcers talk about AD's rebounding stats while we see another loss.

[Sparma]

Thinking some more about how stats stuffing on the offensive boards could happen, I was thinking that for it to happen on a regular basis it would need to happen with a partner.

I'd passed along Terry Pluto's descriptions in Tall Tales about how Bill Russell hugely benefited as rebounder from Tommy Heinsohn setting blocks, and Jerry Lucas as rebounder from Wayne Embry setting blocks. I was slow to realize that could be a pattern on the offensive boards, not just on D.

Part of the reason that didn't dawn on me is that I don't think AD has such a partner in crime on the offensive rebounds. So much of what he does there seems to result from solo work as an incredible leaper who able to jump again and again in short order (as Kelser's observed). The guy who may do some supplementary work helping AD there would be Tolliver, from my observations, rather than Griffin.

Shifting: thanks for your kind comment, Deus. Griffin's easily the best PF AD's played for. As I remember, they do have positive numbers together. I don't see them as a terrible fit, but they're not a great fit either (eg AD's a better than average passer for a Center, but Blake seemed to cut into that role). On the current topic, I don't see the two as a very good supplemental rebounding team (as I think Mahorn and Laimbeer were, for instance).

In all, I'm guessing that we can agree that AD's offensive rebounding is his most outstanding trait. AD often faces the charge of stats stuffing. Yet offensive rebounding looks like an unusually stats-stuffing resistant capacity. And the possible exceptions that I can think of don't really seem to apply to AD. When focusing on AD's most outstanding ability, it's hard to give much credence to the stats stuffing charge. Maybe in other areas, like defensive rebounding ....?

[Sparma]

To me stats "stuffing" implies a purposeful, regular, misleading pattern. Are we in agreement about the definition?

I'm sure there's an added offensive rebound once in a while, but I think it'd be rare. Feel free to supply examples going beyond Drummond, because I've got a general interest in the question.

What Drummond's best at -- offensive rebounding -- has got to be one of the most stats-stuffing-resistant categories around.

I'm issuing a specific challenge for an explanation, rather than denying that AD ever stuffs stats. We've all seen Centers gather the easy defensive rebound while everyone else heads up court; teammates often defer to the big bounds guys when gathered by a ball on D.

On the offensive boards, such deference might happen once in a while, but there wouldn't often be occasions for such polite nods to stats stuffing teammates on O. Whereas plenty of defensive rebounds are cheap, offensive rebounds are usually hard-earned, e.g., by beating an opponent who has inside position on a FT. Yes, there can be weird bounces, flukes, but I'm not seeing how those would count as stats "stuffing." Didn't Rondo miss a shot on purpose once in pursuit of an offensive rebound to complete a triple double. So maybe that would be example, even though it would be highly exceptional? AD's good at recovering his own misses; maybe some of those don't count as heroic rebounds, but I don't see why they'd count as stats stuffing.

No doubt stats stuffing happens.

Again, on defensive rebounding it happens. (Here I wonder if Dre does this any more than, say, Ben Wallace who didn't seem to mind collecting a stray ball while not challenged or taking ownership of a bound instead of a teammate who could collect it.)

The major stats stuffing that occurs to me happens on scoring. We all know of guys who put up a big point total, with a bunch of shots paired. Wilt had a heck of an efficient night when he scored 100 (eg going 28 of 32 from the line), but evidently he was sheepish about the 60 shots he put up. At least he was efficient then; plenty of guys with nice points totals are inefficient game after game.

Steals can be an opportunity for stats stuffing too. I remember AI being accused of putting up impressive steal stats, covering for being a weak defender by taking inordinate chances to intercept balls in passing lanes. So maybe that's an example.

You can't fake your FT %, but some guys excel at inflating the number of times they get to the line, so maybe that's another form of stats stuff.

But I'm puzzled by the idea of stats stuffing on the offensive boards, even if an occasional offensive bound seems a bit cheap. How does such stats stuffing on the offensive boards occur? I'm genuinely stumped, apart from the occasional example that doesn't seem to rise to the level of "stuffing" if my initial description is on track I used to love to go for rebounds myself, and was happy to collect cheapies; I've gotten flukish bounds on O too, but am having trouble also from my own experience seeing how the notion of stats stuffing applies on the offensive boards.

[BallinD]

Athletes should never play to be 2nd best and fans should not encourage it.  They should always want to be the best at what they do especially with these outrageous salaries of theirs.   So perhaps as far-fetching my expectation are to win championships every year are it doesn't change the fact that this must be the mindset every single season.  

This is why I'm saying this group as is if motivated and dedicated and properly coached could be in the finals this year and next year.  It wasn't the talent that got us 3 titles in the past it was the will and heart of those teams, we didn't have the most talent than a lot of teams we had stronger WILLS.

STOP PRAISING THEM FOR FAILING

Who in the Hell wants a stat stuffer, a whiner, a front-runner of the modern era.  Well, maybe Dre has grown up?  I hope so.
I believe maybe he has.  Do I believe for one minute his main-boy Weggie has grown up?  13 assists in the final game before the ankle injury is tantalizing for sure, but I am not sold one bit!  And he is Andre's favorite guy.  I was listening to a lions podcast and out slipped a comment from Matt Dery that Andre has a close friendhip with Ebron...EBRON?!?!  If true, I hope he will find some new friends beyond Ebron/Weggie.  Can you please befriend a WINNER!  If not, emulate that, then I don't give a damn how many rebounds you get, you will never win.  You gotta be vicious!

He is young, and I do not blame him alone, for his earlier failings, and I totally acknowledge the major step-up in his game this year.  I think Blake, with his level of skill, if he and Dre are really close, will certainly, by example, help some with skills, efforts, etc.  Dre obviously needs to be coached up too, if we can get some Pistons DNA in here.  Good Riddance SVG.  Good Riddance Weggie! -- not a winner, hard worker, two-way player, team player.

One thing is for sure, in this era you need look no further than Lebron, Draymond, Westbrook, Kemba, AD, who leave it on the court and look at our players and have to squint to find that level of aggression and effort.  @WTF; Smiling and dancing after losses would not be happening if Big Shot or Zeke were running things here.  Why can no one in power get that?

[WTF]

Athletes should never play to be 2nd best and fans should not encourage it.  They should always want to be the best at what they do especially with these outrageous salaries of theirs.   So perhaps as far-fetching my expectation are to win championships every year are it doesn't change the fact that this must be the mindset every single season.  

For us that played sports I can guess as athletes our thoughts were to win, not some of the time but all the time.  But in failure we ask did we try our best? did we give our all?  We simply put in on the line each time we got on the field of play because winning matters, it's the only thing that should matter as an athlete.  The games are played to be won not lost.   I think we need to stop settling for hopes of 8th seeds, and all these better luck next season pep talks and all this waiting and seeing crap.  The thought should always be to win now.  

My problem with today's players is this, while it's okay to wait for the talent to develop the mindset of being a champion should already be their,  that the losing hurts and failure is not acceptable.   That pain makes you go hard in the off-season, it makes you practice harder and it motivates you.  IMO AD plays for stats as do most players because they find value in numbers.   Sorry I'm not patting AD on his head for stats but I would for the effort he shows on the floor if he laid it all on the line every night.  This makes him far less superior to the BIll and Big Ben.   You never seen them happy and grinning after a loss or getting their ass handed to them but we certainly will see AD happy and grinning during a as whipping on the sidelines when he should be kicking over the Gatorade, and chewing out team mates.  

This isn't just AD but the entire bunch so I'm not just picking on AD but he does get it the most because he's been tag franchise, face of this team and if this is the type of effort and desire we're getting for 125 Million and fans are okay with just stats then something is seriously wrong.   This is why we shouldn't be cheering for anything less than Championships , fu@k an 8th seed. 

Now as I said this team needs a kick in the ass, I mean a big kick in the ass so that they have the attention of the fans, and coaches as to what the expectation are.  They need to learn what it means to be winners, they to talk like winners, walk like winners, and act like winners they need to take their profession more seriously.  I remember how P-Boy use to call Billups Mr. Big Shot EGO or something like that but CB never enter games thinking they would lose, it was never over until it was over.  

Screw Reggie and his injuries because we saw players go entire seasons with far worse injuries than his and put it all on the line.  Fans need to stop the excuse, and raise the bar back to where it should be, we need to stop applauding stats and start applauding victories only.   AD, RJ and BG jobs are to step up every night, pick up all the slack period.  When Rip wasn't Rip CB stepped up, When Bill wasn't Bill Zeke stepped up and so on so, if Ben was off defensively Sheed stepped up,  if Bill wasn't rebounding well Rodman stepped up when Zeke was off Joe was on.   When shouldn't be making excuses for players making the money these 3 are making so I'm tired of hearing about them not having help especially when they don't put it on the line every night like they should.  

You know what AD stats got us last season?  39 wins so it means nothing.   Well I blamed SVG for it but don't get me wrong players get the blame as well because good players win games despite of bad coaching too.  IMO if AD wasn't a pussy more times than not those 50 wins many of you predicted would have still be possible.   This is why I'm saying this group as is if motivated and dedicated and properly coached could be in the finals this year and next year.  It wasn't the talent that got us 3 titles in the past it was the will and heart of those teams, we didn't have the most talent than a lot of teams we had stronger WILLS.

STOP PRAISING THEM FOR FAILING

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