Pistons imitation of drill cones on defense

[cool breeze]

The Detroit News provided the most accurate description of Detroit's defense during that big run by Chicago that blew the game open. The starting unit regardless of the choice of starting point guard plays dummy defense in real games. Watching Andre Drummond run back on defense reminded me of Charlie V. Not a care in the world wondering when the game will be over so he can take his shower and get on the plane back home. Sliding back and forth in the paint failing to understand what Chicago was trying to do and then doing something to to stop the Bulls game plan. There is a clear disconnect now between individual players who are trusted by Stan Van Gundy. I just watched SVG's post game interview where he confesses that it is his fault and this is the worst period his team has been through in 3 years. Stan says he is the guy who picks the lineups etc and takes full responsibility. I agree that this game against the Bulls where both teams were playing back to back games has to be the worst performance that I have seen in a long time by the entire team. The offensive system has failed. Players do not work hard enough within the half court offense to get open shots so they settle for contested shots. And now even the wide open shots are not falling. But is that because of the failure of the system employed by the coach? The offense is dependent on players making difficult shots. Players are easy to defend. Players don't help each other get open. Players are forced to attempt difficult passes and make difficult shots. The stress of playing under this system has become too stressful. The players are not having fun. They are feeling stress to the point that the whole thing has collapsed. This game has to be the point where our Pistons have reached the bottom. They can't get any worse. The game is no longer fun. I saw no emotional reaction while that big run was taking place by the Bulls. No adjustments were made in the defense. The coach watched and did not make changes. The players continued to move on defense like they were moving to drill cones as described in the Detroit News. This game was a walk through by our players. They were sleep walking. Nobody played as if they liked each other or wanted to help each other.

Listening to Stan Van Gundy's interview it is clear that he has no answers. All he can say is that the Pistons play was "mind-boggling". He has made up his mind that his system is sound and his player combinations are sound. So it is just "mind-boggling" as to why things are not working. To me it is not mind-boggling at all. Some of us have seen this coming now for a long time. SVG's system is flawed. His players have too many flaws to run his system on offense even though his system is the least complex of any system that I have ever witnessed. Players are easy to defend in this system. That is the offense and when thinking of defense, it is easy to understand why this team can't get stops when they need to. When a team gets on run there is not stopping them. In crunch time, Stan's players cannot get the necessary stops to win. The key players are not fundamentally sound players to begin with. The center piece andre Drummond switches because it is easy to switch. He does the easiest thing or he just is incapable of concentrating or remembering what the coaches tell him to do in specific situations. There is no paint policeman when Andre is no the floor. How much time do we have to describe our $20 million dollar man? Meanwhile, Reggie Jackson is the worst guard defender in the NBA currently in a rotation. With those two players on the floor this team has no chance of success. We all know that now but it seems that the coach is still frustrated and trying to figure out what is wrong. Watching part of the Atlanta-Washington game last night I saw two different worlds of basketball. Chicago had a hot shooting night against no defense. It was a dull basketball game much like many dull games I have watch this season involving the Detroit Pistons

Good luck filling the arena in downtown Detroit next year.

[Oracle]

@Don - Seeing Beno play was the worst news out of this game I could imagine! If he's in the game, it's for sure the game is a disaster. Beno's not, but in SVG's system, if Beno's playing, SVG has basically given up!

@KaySlay - You nailed it, but I have a deeper question,

SVG uses the words "Mindboggling". Says with 10 games left "If we don't change its gonna get ugly"

He has no clue...  

Watching this game I saw a team that has given up. Even the usually animated, lively, pacing the sidelines coach, was subdued tonight.

My question is, has SVG lost this team?

Right now we're in freefall, and the dumpster fire is the last stop!

I want to say Reggie Jackson has finally ruined this team, but he's getting a lot of help from Drummond, who falls in love with every PG that will toss him the ball regularly!

[KaySlay]

SVG uses the words "Mindboggling". Says with 10 games left "If we don't change its gonna get ugly"

He has no clue...

Watching this game I saw a team that has given up. Even the usually animated, lively, pacing the sidelines coach, was subdued tonight.

Andre had another fantastic game as our MVP. His effort was amazing running the court from baseline to baseline having zero effect at all. Who cares he can count his money when he gets home and forget all about this last game. His free throw shooting seems to be getting worse. Maybe as time moves forward, we fans will feel excited if he can touch the rim with the basketball at least one time in 6 attempts.

Funny stuff here....

The body language from our young star, longest tenured Piston, highest paid player was enigmatic. Going from so much promise as a 19 and 20 year old to what he is today is unsettling. At what point does one show respect for the game? Pride in representing their team and city? Regard for their teammates? Andre showed nothing positive tonight.

Hasan Whiteside is making Andre look like an out of shape, low BB IQ, unmotivated clown.

I was adamant about turning off the game until I saw SVG sub in Boban. Outside starting Ish and SJ playing hard this was the only other thing to be excited about. He come in and goes a perfect 3/3 and nets 7 points in 8 minutes. Completely justifying his lack of playing time.  

Our 2016-2017 Detroit Pistons

[cool breeze]

Chicago manages to score 117 points while coasting to a blowout win against our team with two of their big men out.

Andre had another fantastic game as our MVP. His effort was amazing running the court from baseline to baseline having zero effect at all. Who cares he can count his money when he gets home and forget all about this last game. His free throw shooting seems to be getting worse. Maybe as time moves forward, we fans will feel excited if he can touch the rim with the basketball at least one time in 6 attempts. Drummond looks really tired and depressed.

Ish Smith started the game and played really hard but eventually got himself in foul trouble. Smith gets the award for guts and effort but few of his teammates joined him in that category.

All of the starters with the exception of Smith were downright horrible all night long. Van Gundy stayed true to his form never giving up on them. Pope better hope that the Nets management didn't watch him play in this game against Chicago. He was beaten in every way all night long and provided no offense when the team needed a MVP. Again this was another blow out loss that wasn't close for almost the entire game. No starter looked like a starter for the Pistons. The coach clearly saw the basic lack of effort to defend by those starters but never flinched.

Johnson finally got into the game but Bullock was ahead of him and I thought he would be riding the pine again. Johnson was praised by our announcers after he hit some shots with them saying he was the best Piston on the floor. Then Johnson drove on the baseline and made a bad pass causing a turnover and the coach took him out while providing a lecture as Stanley was trying to sit down in his usual spot. This was the most drama that I saw in this game.

In the last two or three minutes I thought the group Van Gundy had on the floor looked like a real team. Boban - Hilliard, Beno, Johnson and Leuer played well together moving the basketball from side to side with everyone getting involved in the offense. It was too late of course but still was fun to watch. Maybe now that the Pistons are working their way out of the playoffs we will finally see Ellenson in a game.

If I were SVG I would bench Andre Drummond and give him some tough love like he does with Johnson. Start Boban who is difficult match up for any team. His defense is better than Drummond and it is fun to watch him just stand and shoot a set shot two feet from the basket.

Jackson might have reached the end in this game at least for this season. He is such a liability on defense I can't believe he gets any playing time at all.

Something needs to be done to shake things up and make basketball fun again for the Detroit Pistons. The starters are suffering from burn out. The Pistons have now reached the bottom. They can't go any lower. Maybe now the team will get on a better path with the remaining games. What will Stan do now??? Does anyone care?

[Oracle]

It appears that Dinwiddie is going to be the bridge player they use to talk to KCP, and KCP displays well from an analytics and energy eye test. But, IMO, it's the team that allows him to use his speed that will reap the biggest reward from having KCP. He could be RIP, but with the ability to turn the corner and blow to the hole at high speeds, which RIP couldn't do.

The Nets had glowing reviews of KCP.
“You can make the argument that he’s their most important player now. So I think that just shows you the impact that he’s had. He’s gone from defender to arguably their MVP,” said Nets guard Spencer Dinwiddie, who was drafted by Detroit in 2014 and spent his first two seasons playing alongside Caldwell-Pope.
...
“I’m impressed,’’ Nets coach Kenny Atkinson said when asked about Caldwell-Pope. “I love how he competes, how he competes on the defensive end. That’s really the essence of what I see when I watch him play. He plays with force, he competes on the defensive end. On a given night he can get 35 on you easily. His speed off the ball, coming off those [dribble handoffs], flying off and somehow [you’re] going to have to find a way to stay attached, stay close to him.”

Caldwell-Pope has improved each of his four years in the league. This year, he’s shooting a career-high percentage from three-point range and has shown a wider range of ballhandling ability. Bradley Beal is the only guard in the league with a higher win share total this season at the age of 23 or younger to start the season.

[Oracle]

SVG's issue is that he isn't consistent in the way he treats the same behavior across the board.

It's not fair to punish Stanley but not punish Reggie & Drummond for the same offense. 

But I do agree with the punishment of Stanley, he doesn't deserve PT when his play is bad, plus he's a bit of a head case(both ignorant & arrogant) and SVG is getting sick of it.

The shocking thing is that you are calling out SVG for something you do on a regular basis, which I thought was rich... pot calling the....

Why is it that Johnson and our other number one draft pick last season are the only players who suffer the wrath of Stan Van Gundy's watchful eyes? The article explains why Johnson is now permanently on the bench again. I was wondering last night what kind of injury Johnson had suffered. But no he did not play because according to Van Gundy, Johnson gave up a 3 point shot and was not effective on defense for the short minutes he received two games ago. I didn't see him play in the game before last. If he played it couldn't have been for more than a few minutes. But somehow SVG singled out Johnson as a defensive liability. Maybe Johnson is tired of never touching the basketball on offense and does not really feel like he is an important player on this dysfunctional team. Even though Jackson is now labeled as the worst defensive player among all NBA guards this season, everything is Johnson's fault so he must be singled out so he can lose even more confidence with his fit with the Detroit Pistons. This is what Van Gundy did with Spencer Dinwiddie so do to expect to see Johnson in a Piston uniform next year if Van Gundy is not fired.

This coach is a joke. He is the guy who bitches to the players siting on the bench when his stars make mistakes. He transfers the punishment and Beno has suffered the most punishment of all. How can he take watching Jackson and Smith night after night and then listen to Van Gundy bitch him out., It is Beno's fault. It is Bullock's fault. It is Hilliard's fault. Now it is Johnson's fault. This man is a jerk. He needs to go. His stars need to go too. Meanwhile, Spencer Dinwiddie is smiling knowing that he doesn't have to live his life under SVG's rule.

[cool breeze]

Why is it that Johnson and our other number one draft pick last season are the only players who suffer the wrath of Stan Van Gundy's watchful eyes? The article explains why Johnson is now permanently on the bench again. I was wondering last night what kind of injury Johnson had suffered. But no he did not play because according to Van Gundy, Johnson gave up a 3 point shot and was not effective on defense for the short minutes he received two games ago. I didn't see him play in the game before last. If he played it couldn't have been for more than a few minutes. But somehow SVG singled out Johnson as a defensive liability. Maybe Johnson is tired of never touching the basketball on offense and does not really feel like he is an important player on this dysfunctional team. Even though Jackson is now labeled as the worst defensive player among all NBA guards this season, everything is Johnson's fault so he must be singled out so he can lose even more confidence with his fit with the Detroit Pistons. This is what Van Gundy did with Spencer Dinwiddie so do to expect to see Johnson in a Piston uniform next year if Van Gundy is not fired.

This coach is a joke. He is the guy who bitches to the players siting on the bench when his stars make mistakes. He transfers the punishment and Beno has suffered the most punishment of all. How can he take watching Jackson and Smith night after night and then listen to Van Gundy bitch him out., It is Beno's fault. It is Bullock's fault. It is Hilliard's fault. Now it is Johnson's fault. This man is a jerk. He needs to go. His stars need to go too. Meanwhile, Spencer Dinwiddie is smiling knowing that he doesn't have to live his life under SVG's rule.

[cool breeze]

Yes it would be a small step back, but it's exactly the type of team he needs to be on, one that will feature him as a scorer which would allow him to add additional dollars to his coffers in the media rich New York market.

IMO, it's an opportunity too sweet to turn down even if they don't give him the max. I'd do anything to get away from Reggie & Drummond if I was him, unless SVG could do something to make this better, but I don't see how.

Report: Nets expected to make Kentavious Caldwell-Pope 'top priority' in free agency: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-nets-expected-to-make-kentavious-caldwell-pope-top-priority-in-free-agency/

Speaking of contracts do you know the terms of Stan Van Gundy's contract? I would be very surprised if he is not fired before draft night from all of the current positions he currently holds. That is what I would do. Hiring Stan Van Gundy might go down as the worst decision Tom Gores has made so far as the Piston's owner. Stan will need to come up with something big relating to a trade. Will Detroit attempt a sign and trade deal with the Nets? I would love to watch Levert but Stan would most likely hurt his development too.

[Oracle]

Yes it would be a small step back, but it's exactly the type of team he needs to be on, one that will feature him as a scorer which would allow him to add additional dollars to his coffers in the media rich New York market.

IMO, it's an opportunity too sweet to turn down even if they don't give him the max. I'd do anything to get away from Reggie & Drummond if I was him, unless SVG could do something to make this better, but I don't see how.

Report: Nets expected to make Kentavious Caldwell-Pope 'top priority' in free agency: http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/report-nets-expected-to-make-kentavious-caldwell-pope-top-priority-in-free-agency/

[cool breeze]

I loved my experience of watching that young group of players working their butts off for the Nets. The fans there have a lot to be pleased about. Did you notice the turnout for that game? The arena was full and that team has been losing big all year long. The fans got their money worth last night too. You see it is actually fun to watch the young players fighting for their lives. They play the right way and go all out.

Spencer Dinwiddie the six foot six point guard who has the high basketball IQ and is fundamentally sound played his usual great defense and shared the basketball. He is getting his shot now and is finally completely healthy. Who would you prefer to have running the Piston team now? I would pick Dinwiddie over Jackson or Smith but some of you would prefer Smith. Some fans also enjoy the way this Piston team plays the game. They enjoy the fast tempo and shooting the rock quickly without messing around with a half court offense. Stan Van Gundy prefers that style as well as we now now. Basketball for dummies is what many basketball people call Van Gundy's style.

How about Levert? That guy has also recovered from a serious injury and is showing his elite quickness. I would love to watch him in a Piston uniform.

Hollis Jefferson is another player that I really like because he always gives 100% of himself in every game. That is what he did in college with a limited offensive skill set and he has found a home with the Nets and is a favorite among the Nets fans. You see fans do love players who play the game the right way. Somehow Tom Gores and Stan Van Gundy has not calculated that into their decision making. They think fans just like to see shooters do their thing. They want to provide that type of entertainment and underestimate the Piston fans knowledge of the real game of basketball. Nobody could like watching this Piston team play the game this season. But Piston fans would enjoy things more if the team had a different coach and more players who play like those young Nets players. And fans could look forward to securing a top talent in the draft. Now all of that hope is gone. There is only gloom left. It matters not if this Piston team makes the playoffs. Fans want real basketball played by real players with real coaching. This man Stan Van Gundy is not coaching. He is a horrible GM who has ruined this team for years to come and is just playing those players he made the mistake of signing regardless of what happens on the hardwood.

[cool breeze]

Under normal circumstances, you tip your hat to a team that beats you like this... these are not normal times, we needed that win.

I also don't like to go after the players who didn't step up in a big game, for most players, it only matters that a few of them did.

You don't apply that rule to your top players, they're supposed to step most of the time when you really need it!

Reggie Jackson: I'm getting sick of singing this song! The dude just is not playing like a prime time player this year!

Andre Drummond: You can't have your big man both fail to outscore his counterpart AND fail to defend him by such large margins. Don, this is NOT a players league, it's a coaches league, you're confused on this like other things.

You confuse the fact that if a coach fails to control the players then he's ceded his power to them, is NASCAR a cars league or does it matter most who's driving, but why am I bothering to tell you this, back to the game.

SVG blows these games because he either hasn't figured out that Drummond does very poorly against centers 2-4 inches taller than he is, or he's afraid to cut Drummonds minutes, either way, it's a mess. This was yet another game where Boban should get more minutes than Drummond.

Anybody watching should easily see that our biggest problem is which players this coach deploys to solve the problems. He isn't solving problems, he's managing personality conflicts... Larry Brown or Pop wouldn't do this and I thought SVG would be, should be in a position(read strong enough) to make tough calls and make them stand... I was wrong!

Basketball is basketball and NASCAR IS NASCAR. Correct me if I am wrong but I keep saying that the players that SVG keeps deploying are not good enough to beat many other NBA players. I agree with you that the combinations used by this coach will not work. But it much bigger than that. I keep saying to myself, what would I do if faced with the prospect of matching up the players on this Piston roster with players from the other NBA teams the Pistons compete against. Then I think what would I do if I were coaching against the Pistons. It seems that opposing coaches would use the same tactics that I would use. What is happening now is exactly the opposite of what I thought would happen if the owner gave complete authority to one man. I thought that if Tom Gores hired a smart basketball person to do both jobs of working the GM side and also being the head coach, players would have to listen to the coach and not just do their own thing which had been going on before SVG arrived. We previously experienced massive coaching changes where the slightest disagreement with the big contract players would get you fired by Joe Dumras. Now we have a different situation where the head coach is playing the role of the GM while coaching. He won't admit that he has made huge mistakes with his administration of duties as a GM/President.

I have identified what other opposing coaches have identified relating to the basic weaknesses of the players who are under contract as the 3rd highest paid team in the NBA. None of the deemed top 7 players that SVG counts on can play defense well. Most are below average.

GUARDS:

Pope - KCP keeps his body too high and gambles a lot during the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and part of the 4th quarters of most games. He gets his body lower with a better base during crunch time. Opposing coaches will encourage their starting guards to penetrate against Pope or run the pick and roll play a lot. John Wall loves playing against Pope. Beal also enjoys playing against Pope. Should I expand to other opposing guards and how they consistently beat Pope on defense? And Pope is the best defender among the guards who are trusted by SVG.

Jackson - worst defender among all NBA guards in current rotations. He flat out gives the lowest amount of effort of all guards in the league. He has the capability of being a solid defender but has never committed himself at all in that area.

Smith - Ish plays really hard on defense but just can't match up against any superior to good team in the league because of his size and the way he uses his energy on offense.

In my opinion Johnson, Bullock and Hilliard are the best defenders among the guards but they are not trusted players by the current head coach Stan Van Gundy. This is where we agree that this coach has his head twisted in the wrong direction relating to his use of player combinations. He places very little value on a players defensive ability or how chemistry plays a role with success on the court. He plays shoot first gunners regardless of the the defensive liability they cause the team. When these three players do get playing time, they all know in their hearts that they are not players that fit SVG's preferred style of mindless AAU style of play. They all sense that he doesn't trust them at all and will never change his mind about them. This causes those players to lose their confidence and look for ways to move to another team to get into a system that will work for them. This is what happened to Spencer Dinwiddie and will happen to the three players listed above as long as SVG runs this program.

POWER FORWARDS:

Leuer - Is he a starting power forward on any team in the NBA? SVG thought he was for a long time. He is still very high on Van Gundy's list of preferred players. He is not strong enough to play defense against any starting power forward in the league. His skill set is not developed to the point yet that he should be considered anything but a fringe player in the NBA. He has a big contract so the Two Headed Transplant Stan Van Gundy must play him because he signed him as President and the guy in control of everything. The coach SVG can't make the GM Pres. look bad.

Harris - Harris has some advantages on the offensive end when he is penetrating against other power forwards but he cannot guard other NBA starting power forwards who have an offensive skill set. He cannot hold his own on the defensive boards either. Harris has potential but in my opinion should be the starting small forward.

Morris - Marcus is another potential option at power forward but has the same issues on the defensive end that Harris and Leuer have. He is just not big enough to play that position against solid teams.

Baynes - Oh I forgot that this is not an option for the head coach. Baynes is the guy who should be starting at power forward. But Baynes is not a gunner type of player who just lets loose the long ball regardless of the situation. Again, defense is not something that SVG thinks is important although he says he is a defensive minded coach. Could the team chemistry improve if Baynes started? How would Baynes react if his number were called? I think he would play his ass off. But SVG doesn't trust Boban as the back up center so that idea is out.

Ellenson - Can't bring that idea up because SVG runs things and he doesn't trust our number one pick to play even one minute. Yes our coach believes every minute is important although his selected players look as if they are sleeping at times.

Did I miss anyone. We can't mention our number one draft pick last season. According to the coach, Ellenson is not ready. What a joke that is. Are any of the other listed power forwards ready? This is another failure of the GM/President Stan Van Gundy. He has failed to acquire an adequate power forward who can defend.

SMALL FORWARDS:

Morris - For the amount of money this man makes he is pure gold for the Pistons. Is he an elite player among the small forwards. No we can't call him an elite player. He should be coming off the bench if Detroit had a supreme small forward. But he has been a very valuable player this season and last season.

Harris - This position is his natural position but he seldom gets to play small forward. Perhaps he is a good enough defender to start at this position.

Johnson - No reason to mention this player anymore. Either he is in the dog house again, has asked to be traded, or is suffering from an injury. I still think he could help the team most if he played point guard but SVG loves a player who receives the basketball after a made opposing shot and then dribbles around until the point guard gets his shot. I loved watching Spencer Dinwiddie do the opposite of that last night. He seldom kept the ball early on in his team's offensive possessions. He made a quick pass and then moved without the basketball to get a flow going with the offense. Who would you like to play with if you had the chance? Would it be Spencer or Ish or Reggie? Does Stan Van Gundy care at all about creating a good team chemistry? Do either of the Piston point guards give a crap about chemistry? Players are out on the court and want to touch the basketball at least a few times if they get playing time. My bet is that Johnson was wishing that he could have been playing for the Nets last night. That looked like a lot of fun to be on their team. Johnson is suffering playing in this insane system. Let him go Mr. Gores or fire your Two Headed Transplant guy in charge.

CENTERS: Andre Drummond our franchise player has been playing really hard lately. He wants to do well. That is obvious. He is tired of being picked on by fans, opponent centers, and coaches from opposing teams. Who wants to be intentionally fouled in big games and then miss at the free throw line? All the money in the world cannot make up for the embarrassment this man must feel when he gets outwitted while playing defense. He just cannot give this team what they need. The team needs a big guy who can police the paint on defense. He has never been that guy so what can he do now in this moment to help his team win? I think that if he really cares, this coming summer will have to be dedicated to learning the fundamentals of the game and practicing those basic things all centers must do well to be successful at any level. Will he do it or will he work on his hook shot? Will the coach tell him to forget about defense and work more on the hook? Who in hell what Stan Van Gundy is thinking? If I were him, i would be concerned that I might be fired this summer. But the owner might be thinking more about the Lakers than the Pistons. Nothing makes sense relating to this management. Going downtown seems to be the answer for these people.

If I were the head coach of the Pistons now, I do not know what I would do to improve anything. The players are not good enough in my view to compete with real NBA teams that have a chance to win in the playoffs. There are too many weak defenders at their position on the team. There seems to be an ugly chemistry problem among the players. I say good luck to the coach who could make this thing work but I do not enjoy watching many of our players individually. IF a coach can come in and change the system and play an actual 5 man game while somehow turning current players into better defenders, then there might be hope. But my gut after watching this group all year long tells me the players that are currently trusted by Stan Van Gundy are not trustworthy. Oracle good for you for believing that miracles can happen.

[Oracle]

Under normal circumstances, you tip your hat to a team that beats you like this... these are not normal times, we needed that win.

I also don't like to go after the players who didn't step up in a big game, for most players, it only matters that a few of them did.

You don't apply that rule to your top players, they're supposed to step most of the time when you really need it!

Reggie Jackson: I'm getting sick of singing this song! The dude just is not playing like a prime time player this year!

Andre Drummond: You can't have your big man both fail to outscore his counterpart AND fail to defend him by such large margins. Don, this is NOT a players league, it's a coaches league, you're confused on this like other things.

You confuse the fact that if a coach fails to control the players then he's ceded his power to them, is NASCAR a cars league or does it matter most who's driving, but why am I bothering to tell you this, back to the game.

SVG blows these games because he either hasn't figured out that Drummond does very poorly against centers 2-4 inches taller than he is, or he's afraid to cut Drummonds minutes, either way, it's a mess. This was yet another game where Boban should get more minutes than Drummond.

Anybody watching should easily see that our biggest problem is which players this coach deploys to solve the problems. He isn't solving problems, he's managing personality conflicts... Larry Brown or Pop wouldn't do this and I thought SVG would be, should be in a position(read strong enough) to make tough calls and make them stand... I was wrong!

[WTF]

Not much is changing this team should have made moves at deadline and didn't. The standing pat reeks of the same funky scent Joe would leave us with season after the season. I thought SVG would be different!!!!

Nothing wrong with trying and failing and I can understand if the decisions and reasons for standing pat is a financial one, but damn we seem to make this decision based on "what ifs" hoping something clicks and these players get better or, find the right chemistry

Sadly we're sitting here still whining and moaning about the same things we were back in Feb.

[cool breeze]

@Sparma - I totally agree with that. I think the bottom line is that no matter which case, you're playing against players with nothing to lose, and that's dangerous in sports and life as well.

@Don - I am with you on some things, but your logic baffles me. For instance, you blame the players. I'm not saying they're totally blameless, but any quick analysis shows that they didn't have these problems in two cases.

1. Last year: They closed games like a high quality team, and played team ball for the most part.
2. They played at a very high level this year until Reggie came back.

Based on these facts alone, I find it difficult to say it's the players that don't get it.

And it's not that you're critical of them, it's the really nasty way you denigrate them that bothers me. In your comments, they just don't make mistakes, the mistakes you see in any NBA game, you characterize them as losers that will never get better, low IQ players, as if IQ doesn't improve with experience.

You compare them to teams at the height of their power, like the Bad Boys or the 2004 team, as if those teams never had anything to learn and were great from the start.

Young teams need time to grow and they fall down a few times before walking straight.

It's fair game to jump on them for their play, it's been horrible, IMO, even in the games they win. They may make the playoffs, but unless they start playing a hell of a lot better, they won't deserve to be there although I wouldn't turn it down as Sparma stated, the experience will be good.

First off Oracle I blame management most of all for selecting so many fundamentally unsound players. But the facts of life is that the NBA is a players league. Opposing players who beat the Pistons are fundamentally sound players who can exploit the mentally weaker players who are not fundamentally sound. You learn the fundamentals in the 8th grade and by the time you are a senior in high school if you play on a respectable high school team, you will be fundamentally sound or at least 5 or 6 players will play without many basic defects. I know that because I have been both a player and a high school coach. If you want to learn the fundamentals as a kid and pay attention to the details and don't want to look like a fool, you will come out of high school and be able to spot the college or pro players who somehow slipped through the cracks because of some special physical gifts and you say damn that guy plays like an idiot. That is just basic observations any former high school player can make when watching any sport that person has played. When you see highly paid athletes giving up the baseline three times in one game on defense one can come to the conclusion that that pro player has his head in a place that smells badly. For the head coach to allow such mistakes and keep playing that player who gives up the baseline, fails to ever box out on defensive rebounds, Switches improperly on pick and roll plays or just stands in place on pick and roll plays, then you know your team is in big trouble. That is not the way the game is supposed to be played or coached and yet it is happening.

The details do matter Oracle. It should not be offensive for fans to provide the details of what is actually going on with the players during games. Facts do matter. If I am hard on Andre Drummond it is because I love the Pistons and will not accept what Stan Van Gundy accepts from him. The fans deserve more. We deserve a Anthony Davis type player. Just one guy like John Wall or many other players that currently play for other teams. We have no top tier smart players. You are wrong to evaluate this mess as just youth going through the growth period. There is more to it. You have to start with players who are fundamentally sound smart individuals who have the ability to know what each of their teammates are doing at one specific period of time on both defense and offense. The mental picture is missing on the faces of several current starting Piston players. That is a bad sign. That is basic stiff you need to know before you play in the NBA especially because NBA players have to play at a fast pace. There is no room for slow thinkers. How many Piston fans scratch their heads in disgust when Andre Drummond fails to get his arms up or fails to move his feet and lunges as a driver goes by him? He makes $20 million a year so it should NOT hurt his feelings if somebody calls him out. But it is deeper than that. Drummond doesn't have quick recognition ability to situations that is a required skill set for all solid players whether it be in high school, college or the NBA. He lacks that special thing that an Anthony Davis or Tim Duncan has. It is fun to watch those players. It was fun to watch Bill Laimbeer and Isiah Thomas and a host of other Piston players and there are former Piston players who I loved who were not the star players. How can you enjoy the way some of these players handle themselves on the court? Guys like John Wall will continue to make our guards look bad until the day he hangs up his shoes. The same is true for guys like Davis when he plays against Drummond. He will always be able to do whatever he wants to do against Drummond even if he has to get an artificial knee. Davis had the fundamentals down like most players who make the NBA way back in Jr High school.

For a period of time I thought that tough love would work with Andre Drummond and some of the other Piston players. Call them out when they fail to play the right way. By the way that is an attitude more than anything else. Do you want to learn how to play the right way?????? Can you take it when a coach or fan calls you out? Will you get pissed or change what you are doing? I don't see any sign that some of our players really want to be that kind of athlete. I see Andre Drummond as a guy who has limited himself because of his attitude long ago and now in this fast paced NBA game he has to think instead of reacting on defense where his presence is needed the most. He could be a game changer in a positive way instead of the negative way he has accepted as the norm.

Meanwhile, I will love watching one of the guys I used to pull for Spencer Dinwiddie. He is one smart man with a great basketball mind. He has the fundamentals down and I have witnessed his leadership skills and clutch end of game heroics as a college player. I will always respect Spencer as a guy who wanted to do the right thing and play the right way. Real sports fans never forget those players. But Stan Van Gundy didn't want to play a half court offense style like the Spurs play. He likes the mindless 2 on 2 or 1 on 1 or 3 on 2 game based on speed and the gunner mentality. The way this team performs is the fault of Stan Van Gundy. He hasn't helped make any player better so far. His style is made for dummies. His selection of player combinations creates bad chemistry. He doesn't care if his players are fundamentally sound but bitches to the bench players because he is too cowardly to face off with his starters when they make bone head mistakes or just fail to play hard. So we do agree on one thing Oracle.

[Oracle]

@Sparma - I totally agree with that. I think the bottom line is that no matter which case, you're playing against players with nothing to lose, and that's dangerous in sports and life as well.

@Don - I am with you on some things, but your logic baffles me. For instance, you blame the players. I'm not saying they're totally blameless, but any quick analysis shows that they didn't have these problems in two cases.

1. Last year: They closed games like a high quality team, and played team ball for the most part.
2. They played at a very high level this year until Reggie came back.

Based on these facts alone, I find it difficult to say it's the players that don't get it.

And it's not that you're critical of them, it's the really nasty way you denigrate them that bothers me. In your comments, they just don't make mistakes, the mistakes you see in any NBA game, you characterize them as losers that will never get better, low IQ players, as if IQ doesn't improve with experience.

You compare them to teams at the height of their power, like the Bad Boys or the 2004 team, as if those teams never had anything to learn and were great from the start.

Young teams need time to grow and they fall down a few times before walking straight.

It's fair game to jump on them for their play, it's been horrible, IMO, even in the games they win. They may make the playoffs, but unless they start playing a hell of a lot better, they won't deserve to be there although I wouldn't turn it down as Sparma stated, the experience will be good.

[Sparma]

Cool, ideally the Pistons would be part of the lottery this year and luck into a top 3 pick, getting one of the top PGs. The odds of lucking into a top 3 are so long though, that the playoff experience likely would be the preferable route (assuming the dif in draft slot is only a couple of places).

Listened to part of the Phoenix game. The announcers brought up points made both by Cool and Oracle. Early, Mahorn kept talking about how loose a team like Phoenix is (in agreement with Oracle). Mark Champion repeatedly brought up that the Phoenix GM might be thrown off by how well the Suns (Sun?; which Sun*s*) are we talking about?) were doing deep into the game. He said most of the Suns not playing weren't hurt, they just weren't playing [in order to tank in earnest]. So that was an awfully depleted team, not merely a loose one.

[cool breeze]

Do any of you hope the Pistons do not make the playoffs? I have a lot of friends who tell me that is what they think. If Detroit somehow gets that 8th seed, Stan Van Gundy will call this season another success story. How can he tolerate this nonsense? He must think we fans are the most gulible people on the face of the earth. The Pistons at full strength playing for perhaps the 6th seed in the playoffs showed their true character when they lost those 3 games in a row to playoff teams. If they had fought hard and played with some courage or guts in even one of those games, my opinion of the players would be different. But it is clear that these players do not like each other and can't wait until the season is over. Two starters who make tons of money are the weak links. Those three opponents before the Suns game had a game plan and they used it perfectly. They targeted Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson. When Smith replaced Jackson, they went after him. Drummond looked dumber than a box of rocks in those defensive rotations. He sure is a smart businessman but is a lost puppy when he plays against real NBA players who want to win. Those three teams knew going in that Jackson is playing like a 50 year old. He has no Juice on offense and has become ever worse on defense getting the rating of the worst defensive starting point guard in the NBA. We have the worst defensive starting center and free throw shooter and the worst defensive starting point guard in the league. How in hell could anyone expect that our Pistons wouldn't get blown out by three good teams that are rounding into playoff shape now?

Detroit lost to the Suns when they had half of their team healthy before this last encounter and I thought they would still get the sweep in the 3rd quarter before Pope started making those off balance 3 point shots he loves. Now our team will take on the Nets. Notice that Stan Van Gundy is still focused on this road trip like nothing bad happened in those 3 telling loses? He is saying to himself, please Piston fans I don't want to be fired so forget what happened. Remember we just beat the Suns. No the fans who attended the Suns game were doing the right thing. They were yelling at the lazy ass Piston players who were down by 12 in the 3rd quarter. For whatever reason, Andre Drummond doesn't have the right stuff to give his team what is needed. He has no idea how to defend. HE cannot concentrate more than a few seconds on defense. His response time is so slow he has no chance to block shots in the paint. He can stand and get rebounds and keep building those meaningless stats. That is what we fans have in store for the next 4 years.

[cool breeze]

A team out of playoff contention plays way over their heads and upsets a team they shouldn't beat.

Our Pistons used to do that a lot! Once they were eliminated we always hoped they would tank, but no, they went out and started winning and lost the ability to get a high draft pick.

Teams do that, once the pressure is off, they have nothing to lose and are a lot looser, try to do things that they wouldn't have tried under normal circumstances.

Of course we've all seen this before and recognize it, it's nothing new, it happens a lot. So that's why I was surprised to see this from someone that's been around awhile,

Then when the Piston starters were floundering around in the 3rd quarter with the Suns 3rd string point guard running circles around our top two point guards, much of the focus was on our franchise players, Drummond and Jackson.

.....................

Morris seems to be the only smart player on the team in the sense that he has done the work necessary to develop a set of skills to get the best out of himself.

Maybe he believes that the 3rd string guards are actually better, it's hard to tell because his opinion of this team is so low.

In his opinion the best players on this team are the ones that don't play or play few minutes, well, that was until Morris ascended to the top of the list.

Well, since Morris is the ONLY smart player on the team, let's just ship the lot of them out and build the team around Morris... Wow!

Oracle what must be happening with you is that you are not actually watching the games especially this last one against Phoenix. I think the Suns announcers stated that 7 of their top players were out. Then when you factor in that the Suns are on a long road trip, how can anyone not be down on this team that is if fans actually bothered to watch the Pistons. I can't blame anyone who has stopped watching this Piston team long ago. The team didn't function this way last year. There is a clear difference relating to the chemistry of the starters which is horrible and getting worse. It is like the flu that is carried to the other rotation players. The Pistons do not run any real organized offense. They don't play as a unit defensively. Their energy is low in the first and 3rd quarters. The franchise player is the worst free throw shooter in history and makes $20 million a year. The coach makes no adjustments. The coach places his trust in the wrong players. The team has the 3rd highest payroll in the NBA which shows that the President, Owner and GM must be the worst in the NBA to put that product on the floor night in and night out. Other teams have accepted reality and moved on benching players and bringing in D-Leaugers on 10 day contracts.

I think you and others must not be watching the games. Come on Oracle admit it. Otherwise you would be right there with me. Nobody in their right mind can bond with some of these players. Andre Drummond is one. He has the golden contract so he plays like Andre played in that one year in college. Did you ever watch him play then? He didn't get his arms up or learn the basic defensive rotation system that his college team used. He didn't get his arms up on defense. He didn't box out on the defensive boards. He couldn't make free throws. Sound familiar Oracle. All he has is the gifts he was born with. Maybe that is what you call talent but not me. The 2nd player who nobody should be able to bond with is Reggie Jackson. I can feel for him if he does have a health issue that does not allow him to play with high energy and stamina. He clearly is missing both and it has been that way all season long. While fans are upset that Ish Smith hasn't become the starter, Stan Van Gundy knows that Smith might be more effective but he was signed to be a tempo changer off the bench not a starter who cannot guard any starting point guard in the league. Reggie can't guard anyone as well as Smith. Beno is a guy I like and could bond with because he does defend better than Jackson or Smith. But that is a coaches decision and Van Gundy must know something that I don't.

We all have to remember one true statement. The NBA is a players league not a coaches league. The players decide things on the court regardless of what tactics any coaches employs. This season I have experienced disappointment not because the Pistons lose games but how they play the games. The team looks like they have an extremely low basketball IQ. So the only people who might enjoy watching them play have to be fans with low basketball IQs. The overall effort or energy the Pistons bring is far less than 90% of the other NBA teams. Some teams lose more but they are more fun to watch such as Philly, Suns, and many others. The gut feeling most fans have now is that this team is not progressing but instead the players are regressing. Can anyone get excited about winning that last game against the Suns where a D League player on a 10 day contract scored 13 points in a few minutes. The team was playing without any of their key players. And our Piston starters looked so bad in for the first 3 quarters getting down by 12 points in the 3rd, how could you be critical of me for my comments? Do you work for the Pistons in some capacity Oracle. Are you hired for damage control to write on forums??? Just kidding but I am surprised by your comments. Anyone who watched the college players in the NCAA tournament and then watched this lame Piston experience against the Suns should have been in shock at how bad the Piston brand has become.

[Oracle]

A team out of playoff contention plays way over their heads and upsets a team they shouldn't beat.

Our Pistons used to do that a lot! Once they were eliminated we always hoped they would tank, but no, they went out and started winning and lost the ability to get a high draft pick.

Teams do that, once the pressure is off, they have nothing to lose and are a lot looser, try to do things that they wouldn't have tried under normal circumstances.

Of course we've all seen this before and recognize it, it's nothing new, it happens a lot. So that's why I was surprised to see this from someone that's been around awhile,

Then when the Piston starters were floundering around in the 3rd quarter with the Suns 3rd string point guard running circles around our top two point guards, much of the focus was on our franchise players, Drummond and Jackson.

.....................

Morris seems to be the only smart player on the team in the sense that he has done the work necessary to develop a set of skills to get the best out of himself.

Maybe he believes that the 3rd string guards are actually better, it's hard to tell because his opinion of this team is so low.

In his opinion the best players on this team are the ones that don't play or play few minutes, well, that was until Morris ascended to the top of the list.

Well, since Morris is the ONLY smart player on the team, let's just ship the lot of them out and build the team around Morris... Wow!

[cool breeze]

One thing NBA scouts look for when watching college players is how the prospect plays within the game. Do they go with the flow or are they "GUNNERS"? Will the prospect disrupt the team defensive rotations? How many current Piston players are "GUNNERS". Players in slumps who are just "GUNNERS" will continue to ignore open teammates to get their own shot regardless of how much defensive pressure they receive. The Pistons have a dysfunctional offensive system and a defensive system that cannot get stops against average to above average teams in crunch time. The point guards are "GUNNERS" and the supporting cast are all "GUNNERS" relating to the first 6 players meaning both Harris and Leuer are "GUNNERS". The point guards have no idea how to create a good flow to the offense. Somehow Stan Van Gundy has lost his way and maybe that was around 6 or 7 years ago. His judgment in player selection has been off the charts bad. Smith provides a more stable force in creating a flow in the offense that allows the team to find a tempo at times but he also ruins that flow by going wild for segments of the game as he tries to fit Stan Van Gundy's GUNNER system.

[cool breeze]

To me when it comes to basketball in the great State of Michigan all the glory goes to the U of M. After that plane incident, a miracle has happened. Those Michigan player have a real identity. They believe in each other and it shows. There is real passion and beauty as these players gain more and more confidence and step up in big moments. The players all get to their spots on both defense and offense and fight hard in all situations. There is never a let up and when someone makes a mistake, another teammate makes a great play. I am so surprised at how the Michigan big men quickly recognize situations on both ends and react properly. Michigan players have the fundamentals down really well and now are executing like real pros.

So how many of you watched this last game involving U of M? If you did then you had to have had a great feeling about the experience. Then if you made the mistake like I did of watching the Pistons play that game against Phoenix, the real truth had to come out. The Piston players are not smart players. Many would have struggled if one of the college coaches had put them in the game on either college team. Andre would have fouled out in the first half. Speaking of fouls, neither college coach would be able to play Andre based on his foul shooting skill set. And Andre just would not get that easy layup on the NBA style pick and roll play where nobody rolls to defend Andre. Pope would have been looking for his off balance 3 point shot and the coach would have sent him to the bench. And then how would Reggie Jackson do in that college game? Would he have the stamina to play defense considering the effort those college players gave on both teams? Would either college coach trust Reggie's decision making skills on offense? Morris and Harris would fit in.

I have watched a lot of high quality big men and guards play in the NCAA this season. Too bad Stan Van Gundy has positioned our Piston team is such a bad way for this draft. Hats off to Boston again. The Suns will do well next season as well as they get their young core back from injuries and add some better talent. How about Utah too. What a quick turnaround for them. Meanwhile, the Pistons have all the reject players that no other team wants while having the 3rd highest payroll in the NBA. Is anyone depressed or do you still believe the Detroit Pistons have a lot of talent and are on the rise???? Will Stan join Jeff in the broadcast booth next year? The NBA is a players league. We have the rejects. No coach can change that fact. But Stan Van Gundy selected those players so his punishment is that he has to coach them. I get it now Mr. Gores.

[cool breeze]

The Suns announcers are tired and are with their team during a long road trip but still have a good sense of humor. Comments about Leuer getting that $10 million dollar contract made both announcers chuckle. Then when the Piston starters were floundering around in the 3rd quarter with the Suns 3rd string point guard running circles around our top two point guards, much of the focus was on our franchise players, Drummond and Jackson. The announcers were picking up on the Piston fans who were calling out Jackson when he committed two stupid fouls in a short period of time and then complained to the refs. Then before Pope caught fire with his low percentage outside bombs, the Suns announcers questioned Pope's ability to penetrate or figure out how to get shots closer to the basket. I have wondered about that all year long expecting that this season Pope would not just be a 3 point shot specialist. Starting 2 guards need to have a inside and outside game don't they? I guess the answer is no in Stan Van Gundy's system.

The best comments by the Suns announcers who were both former NBA players was the fact that the Detroit Pistons do not appear to be that team everyone expected this season as a team on the rise in the NBA. The announcers made statements that the Piston players look every uninvolved playing as individuals instead of bonding as a team. They talked about the impact of Reggie Jackson a lot relating to possibly causing some of the chemistry issues but the announcers stated there was something bigger than that with this Piston team. The word is dysfunctional. The players are not a good fit for each other. Morris seems to be the only smart player on the team in the sense that he has done the work necessary to develop a set of skills to get the best out of himself.

Meanwhile, Andre Drummond didn't get his arms up above his waist at all during this last game on defense. He was floating around looking lost as usual being no threat at all as a defender in the paint. The Suns will get a good draft pick. Our Pistons of course don't need better talent. We have the best talent in the entire league. Losing and playing like crap has nothing to do with the players. It has to be the coaching staff that is entirely responsible for the lazy ass effort out players give the loyal fans. The head coach does surprise me a lot when I see that starting lineup each and every game and the way he just keeps sending out the same group of players regardless of what is happening. Somehow the Suns got a guy from the D-League on a ten day contract that made our starters look like fools. But our team won so who cares?

[Phil-Good]

Oracle, Stan Van Gundy wants to win and that's wonderful but we not Boston. Boston is top 3 in the conference with A rookie in the starting lineup. NOW THAT'S WINNING!!!

The Pistons have A S.H.I.T load of talent but who could see it. NOBODY IS MAKING ANYBODY BETTER other then Ish Smith. It's only so much Ish can do.

Word is this Draft will be loaded with good NBA players. Well, Stan and his staff better try to find the next star PG because it will be 2 or 3 in this draft according to all the draft wizards.


Stan Van Gundy better get on top of his S.H.I.T this summer. He can not allow Reggie to continue to suck the life out of this team and the future of this organization because that's exactly what has happen this season.

Jackson as your leader is like shining light on S.H.I.T.

[lemonpen]

The PG situation could still work if they make the obvious move and switch RJ with Ish... This way Ish can get the ball moving early and put the starters in a good position to score... Also get some easy transition buckets.
With Tobias back in the starting lineup the bench can use a primary scorer like RJ.

I agree with starting Ish, but in the vein of putting guys in position to succeed, I would make RJax the backup SG. KCP would benefit from added rest. Above all else RJ has a scorers mentality so why not facilitate it by giving him the green light against lesser resistance. Resurrect Beno at PG for no other reason than he is a good shooter from distance and can get his own late in the clock.

[cool breeze]

I can't stop thinking about this subject of talent when fans say by God we do have a lot of talent on this Piston team. Is it the coaches fault with the starting center doesn't even bother to raise up his arms on defense. Imagine the impact of Andre Drummond actually trying to defend the paint. He knows that Greg Monroe got away without having to keep his arms up on defense and could almost sleep walk on defense without getting pulled from games. These NBA coaches are just playing a part in pure nonsense. This is not real basketball we are seeing when we watch the Detroit Pistons. I watched the Spurs a few nights ago and noticed that every player was working their feet and moving as a unit with their arms up challenging shot attempts. Often those players would leave their man and help a teammate setting traps or moving over to take charges. When was the last time anyone has seen Andre Drummond take a charge? Because some of us have been calling Andre Drummond out as a complete lazy ass fraud especially relating to his lack of interest in playing defense at all, he has put his arms up a few times. Andre is a faker. He has always been a fake player and really doesn't know how to get the best out of himself on the hardwood. Being that Reggie Jackson is half the man he was last season, the only way this team has any chance of success is if Andre Drummond somehow makes a complete 180 degree turn in the right direction relating to how much energy he is willing to provide for his team. He is extremely mentally challenged in the sense that he is so fundamentally unsound that the only way he can become a force on defense is to be willing to take a lot of pain by playing harder than he has ever played in his life.

Anthony Davis, Tim Duncan, Shaq and our Bill Laimbeer have put their hearts and souls into improving their teams. That is why I call Andre Drummond a fraud. He says all the right things much like Charlie V did but when the going gets tough, Andre disappears. Drummond is so far behind and how much times does he spend on the practice court? How much time has Andre spent shooting free throws since the season started? How many of you fans if placed in his position would not stay up all night every night until you figured out how to shoot free throws at a 70% clip? How hard would it be to actually get in proper physical condition so you could place yourself in position to compete with the best centers in the league? Andre Drummond makes most of the money and management allows him to get away with stinking up the game. Meanwhile, the college centers are out there battling their asses off for zero money. Who should we be watching Andre Drummond or college players we don't even know?

I agree with all fans who say that Stan Van Gundy needs to be fired. This is why.

KCP - Jackson - Smith cannot stop dribble penetration from any starting point guard or 2 guard in the NBA. All are below average overall defenders. I am tired of hearing about Pope's defensive abilities. He is horrible. All I see is Pope trailing his man and gambling on which way his man is going to drive to the basket. He telegraphs his movement and opposing guards then just reacts to Pope's movement. Where is the coaching to help Pope? Smith cannot guard any starting guard in the league. No coach can change that fact. Jackson cannot guard any guard in the league. No coach can change that but the head coach should be fired because he picked those players.

Andre Drummond should have been traded last summer. Now he will be very hard to move even for a 2nd round pick due to his crazy salary. Drummond will never be a smart defender any way you slice it. And he is not a guy I would want to have the basketball in crutch time especially at the foul line. No coach can help Andre Drummond. All have failed in the past because he is not coachable. But the head coach decided to pay Andre Drummond $20 to $27 million so SVG must go.

Get a new GM and new younger head coach from the college ranks like Boston did. Remove Andre Drummond, Ish Smith and Jackson from the team and then pick up some smart two way players who are capable of growing into really good smart players who can function in a real 5 man half court offense. The focus should be on getting players who have been key players on successful NCAA basketball teams. Andre Drummond was a fringe player in college in case some of you didn't know that. It is embarrassing to watch these players. All of my friends have stopped watching them. Time for a big change to get the fans back.

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