Value some can't see....

[Oracle]

Yet Pistons coach Stan Van Gundy isn’t concerned about Caldwell-Pope’s lack of offensive production.

"It is difficult because he's not a guy that we call a ton of plays for,” Van Gundy said following the team’s walkthrough ahead of Sunday's game against the Bucks. “We try to give him some but generally how many good looks he's getting is a fairly good barometer of our ball movement.

“I don't know that KCP has gotten a lot of good looks. I think he's had a little bit of frustration because of that. I'm not sure he's taking great shots himself all the time, so hopefully as our offense improves and our ball movement gets better, he gets higher quality shots and then his percentage goes up."

Van Gundy said they’ve ran a play for Caldwell-Pope to start the last two games and he scored both times. But with the majority of the offense operating through pick-and-rolls, forwards Marcus Morris and Tobias Harris have been the main go-to guys.
Van Gundy added there are plays that can be run to help improve Caldwell-Pope’s shot selection, but his value goes beyond how much he scores.

"KCP helps us wins games, so would I like him to shoot the ball better? Yes, so would he but I'm not sitting around worrying about that,” Van Gundy said. “I don't think that's a real issue with our team. He's going to make shots as the year goes on, but he's the guy who leads our defense.

“He's our most consistently high-energy player. We need him on the floor and, to me, shots going in for him are just a bonus."

But again!!! I would move KCP if we can't agree on a price that gives the team enough flexibility to get better if needed. Although a good option is to give him what he wants, let Baynes walk, and we're in decent shape again.

Who knows what SVG will do, I just know he'll do something smart, that works for both KCP and the Pistons.

[Oracle]

Nice game, they held another team to low 80's, so the defense is starting to get better, but still more work to do.

KCP got off the snide and was our leading scorer(21pts), but Stanley keeps getting worse, zero points in 15 minutes of action. The kid needs to relax, I know he can do a LOT better.

Drummond had a 20/23 game, but he's still missing FT's. His shot looks really good to me, it's judging the distance better.

I also have to mention Harris, who had 16 points, he continues to impress. I saw Reggie on the sidelines rooting for his mates, I can't wait to see him out of street clothes.

Our new PG's continue to impress as well, 13 assists between them, and Beno is looking WAY better than the corpse formerly known as Steve Blake, the guy can actually move

@Ballin - You're really reaching! That's the reason we have averages over a significant period of time, looking at things the way you do only allows people with their minds set to come up with invalid excuses for the reasons they really feel.

Definition of Average: a number expressing the central or typical value in a set of data, in particular the mode, median, or (most commonly) the mean, which is calculated by dividing the sum of the values in the set by their number.

[BallinD]

The Eye Test should be enough, but:

Recent History KCP inconsistency 2016-17, Games of 6, 5, 4, 3, 7 Avg 31.5 min

Hi Lo Avg
23 3 pts: 0-4 25 min 4.5 ppg


Last Season stretch run, April averaged below his season Avg

Hi Lo Avg
18 pts 2 pts: 1-6 25 min 13.2 ppg


Last Season March, Games of 4 pts, 8, pts, 8 pts, 9 pts, 11 pts avg 37 mins

Hi Lo Avg
24 pts 4 pts 1-10 36 min 15.6 ppg

Last Season December Games of 6 pts, 8, 9 9, 10 pts avg 38.2 mins

Hi Lo Avg
31 6 pts 3-13 35 mins 15.1 ppg

[Oracle]

I dunno..........he's like the only guy on our roster who is both willing and able to Defend.    Andre and Stanley are able.......but Andre doesn't have the drive and SJ is no more than Stuckey on HGH........selfish.  Nobody else has the length or quickness to guard anybody.

Do we really want to dump this guy for a scorer, so that he can stand around and watch Reggie do his thing?

Fly, the answer is there is no way we should want to get rid of KCP... PERIOD! However, there are looming salary cap and cap flexibility issues that may not allow us to keep him. That's the legitimate issue on the table, but the people that want to move him are saying things not based on the facts, but on things they don't or won't say.

Questions for Ballin & Phillip,

Question 1: KCP averaged over 14 points per game last season. Can you explain how that's inconsistent?

Question 2: Since your consensus is that KCP is not a top SG. How many PPG do you expect a SG to score to be considered a top SG?

[FlyDog]

I dunno..........he's like the only guy on our roster who is both willing and able to Defend. Andre and Stanley are able.......but Andre doesn't have the drive and SJ is no more than Stuckey on HGH........selfish. Nobody else has the length or quickness to guard anybody.

Do we really want to dump this guy for a scorer, so that he can stand around and watch Reggie do his thing?

[Phil-Good]

I am looking around the Eastern conference. Between the preseason and the first two regular season games. I believe Pope is the worst starting 2-Guard in the entire Eastern Conference right now.

I challenge anybody to post the stats of A starting 2-Guard in the Eastern Conference who numbers are worse then Caldwell-Pope..

The question now is what's next? Let's hope this guy can pull his AZZ out from the NBA basement where his game belongs right now and puts together A decent first half so we can trade his Inconsistent azz.

[WTF]

Personally I think keeping Andre and KCP hurts us now. I would love to have both Smith and Moose in their place right now. Yes even with Smith jacking up three Moose can't play defense any worse than Andre does now, chemistry killer I think was overkill but Josh was the most talented and more all around player. Josh mistake was signing under a Joe Dumars Simple Minded Regime!!!!!!!

[Oracle]

Your memory is very short.

1. We barely got into the playoffs, and there was a stretch of about 7 games before he got hurt, where KCP put this team on his back, and none of them would we have won without him(Hell, he was our LEADING scorer), and those weren't the only games where KCP was instrumental in us winning. There goes the argument he drags us down!

2. It's NOT about loyalty to a player, where do you get that. My loyalty is to the team first, the player second. When you focus on single players, as most fans do, the bigger picture is lost.

3. We'll see what the Pistons do. Making a move out of silly emotion is the way you screw up team chemistry, become a less attractive FA destination(we don't need to get worse), and lose in transactions.

There's a time and place for everything, the minds we have here will do the smart thing. It's time now for thinking, observing and surveying the possibilities, venting is what's going on here, but that's what fans do.

Your Ish comment applies to every member of this team. Who are these 3 point shooters you expect to see get setup?

Lastly, IMO, if you have a WIDE open shot, you're supposed to take it! I fault both KCP & Stanley for being timid, but you're even complaining when they do exactly what you just asked, let others shoot... you can have that argument with your other self.

[BallinD]

Oracle, BallinD doesn't think those other addition by subtraction situations are as dissimilar as you think.

You are partially right with your analysis of Josh and Moose, but I think you are missing the point.

Oracle:That's not a good analogy. Josh destroyed team chemistry, that's why we got better!
With Josh, we got better because of the team chemistry, yes, and ALSO because we stopped running something like half our plays through his declining, ball-dominant azz. Others stepped up, which is the lesson there.  There are better options than playing KCP 38 minutes every game, Just Saying!  He's not at all an elite defender, and he is our worst shooter. He is holding up progress, cause he is what he is!

Oracle: Moose wasn't anywhere near the issue Josh was, and we got better because we changed our scheme, but only marginally better.  Making the playoffs is only marginally better??  We needed to move on and change our scheme post Moose because his inability to shoot at all 5 feet beyond the hoop clogged the middle and clogged the offense.  He was a defensive liability.  He slowed our pace.  Conclusion: we could not play to our best potential with Moose weighing us down like a ships anchor.

Similarly KCP drags us down, preventing us from playing to our full potential.

Oracle: The best argument against what you're saying is... what you're saying. Because when we got better in EACH situation, KCP was an integral part of it. So how is he hurting the team? He got us into the playoffs!"  KCP got us into the playoffs???? That's a laugher.  He contributed to the stretch run, but he neither led us there, nor was he the difference maker.  

With SVG definitively stating last week that Ish's skills sets up spot up shooters like KCP (he said that), even Stevie Wonder could see the disconnect there.  Our scheme is catering to a fantasy,  He is a spot up shooter doomed to regularly lay bricks in that scheme, which makes it certain to fail.  Just as we knew the twin towers with Moose was doomed to fail.

If he focused on backdoor cuts, runouts, drive and dish, (he is showing some ability to find Dre for alley oops off his drive) and played half the minutes he plays, I would be ok with that.  I would rather his (spot up) shots go to Tobias or Marcus, or hell Bullock, Hilliard.  All analysts agree that to take the next leap, the Pistons have to shoot it a lot better. Giving unfettered shots to our worst shooter is folly!

Oracle: How is he hurting our team? You asked, how is he hurting our team? Watch the games!! He is taking shots that could and should go to other players.  Shooting pull up 3pt airballs, and spotting up to brick, failing to stretch the floor so, because of that, defenders can sag on Dre in the PnR.  The effects of his incompetence trickle down.  His defense does not make up for the minuses.  Our two shooting guards KCP and SJ are the two worst shooters on the team at a critical shooting position, that's how!  

Because they are two of our most energetic defenders (not effective, mind you, but energetic) I can live with riding out the season with KCP, but I don't have to like it.  At least, a shorter leash, if not a choke collar is needed for the both of them.

You think it's too early to make that call, I don't.  But if we don't, I can live with it.  I respect loyalty.  But loyalty to a fault is hard to swallow.

[Oracle]

@Phillip - You're starting to make more basketball sense. While it's still too early to make a call on KCP, the tea leaves are pointing in the direction you outlined. As we speak, I'm watching the Suns take it to the Thunder in the 3rd, and you never lied about Booker, he's a bonafide NBA player offensively! He's poor to decent defensively, but when you can score like that, the good outweigh the bad.

I won't throw in the towel on KCP until the Feb trade deadline, if he's still throwing up stink bombs, then SVG's path is clear. It'll be hard to do on both sides, we don't make the playoffs last year without KCP, and we certainly wouldn't have been as close to the Cavs without him in the playoffs.

The other alternative is to keep him, but bring in a scoring SG to either start of come off the bench, but if KCP needs 20M+, it's time for us to part ways.

Stanley: his poor play may be a blessing in disguise, because it gives SVG the power to make him listen, since whatever he's been doing obviously isn't working. I still believe in Stanley, but my confidence about how good a player he'll be is being readjusted.

@Ballin - You said,

"We got nothing for Josh, and did it hurt us??  We got nothing for Moose, and did it hurt us? No.  If we get a pick or a prospect for KCP I will be happy.  We are awash in young, long, promising wings.  Let's try!!!"

That's not a good analogy. Josh destroyed team chemistry, that's why we got better! Moose wasn't anywhere near the issue Josh was, and we got better because we changed our scheme, but only marginally better.

The best argument against what you're saying is... what you're saying. Because when we got better in EACH situation, KCP was an integral part of it. So how is he hurting the team? He got us into the playoffs!

There is an argument to be made, it's just not that one, Wise makes a very strong case, as does Phillip in his last post, but your instincts are telling you we need to do something, and IMO, you're right.

If KCP can't turn this around, our hands are tied.

@Merc - Coming home baby!!! I love it

[FlyDog]

Raptors are tough. Hopefully last night is an indication of how we'll take care of the weakish East this season.

[Murph]

Yes, it's becoming increasingly clear that we should have taken Winslow.

Winslow?? Murph, I got 5 players I would have drafted before Winslow. Devin Booker, Devin Booker, Devin Booker, Devin Booker, Myles Turner.

The two best players in that 2015 draft class so far. Turner is A stretch 5 who can block shots, control the paint and rebound the basketball. A steal by Larry Bird. Devin Booker is they best player in his draft class, right now today. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.
[/quote]

Agreed.  There are a number of players SVG should have taken before SJ...Winslow only being one of them.

[Phil-Good]

I wanted Pope to come out and have A better start to his 20-Million plus tour.

See I knew this S.H.I.T would happen with Pope. Now people around the league can see what I been saying for two years now. The kid don't belong here in Detroit. It's not A good fit for either.

What the Pistons need from Pope, it's too big of A order for Pope to fill. He does not have the talent or skills to get the job done.

But it's OK. Pope is still A solid NBA guy. He can help several teams. Cleveland, Minnesota, The Warriors could really use Pope. The Sacramento Kings really need A guy like Pope. The 76ERS could really use A guy like Pope.

The guy is going to be fine. He just needs A change in scenery. I believe the time is now to unload Pope. Even if it's A future first round pick or A injured player who is out for the rest of the season. Detroit should leave no stone upturned.



How about Chris Middlton back to Detroit Milwaukee???

[Phil-Good]

Yes, it's becoming increasingly clear that we should have taken Winslow.[/quote]


Winslow?? Murph, I got 5 players I would have drafted before Winslow. Devin Booker, Devin Booker, Devin Booker, Devin Booker, Myles Turner.

The two best players in that 2015 draft class so far. Turner is A stretch 5 who can block shots, control the paint and rebound the basketball. A steal by Larry Bird. Devin Booker is they best player in his draft class, right now today. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

Let me say this about Stanley Johnson. Stanley Johnson is A Ron Artest/Jimmy Butler clone. What's going to make Johnson special is what he can do on Defense and when the offense is running through him one day. Right now, you not going to get the best out of Stanley when he standing in the corner. Stanley need the ball in his hands with A pick and roll in the middle of the floor so he can create. But Johnson has not earn the right to have that play called for him yet. Give the kid time and more minutes every night. You will see how special he will be.

[BallinD]

Our Team Member's Body Language in the First Home Opener

Excellent: Ish!!!, Tobias!!!, Marcus!!!, Beno!!!, Baynes!!! (Energized and Engaged)

Good: Boban,!  Ellensen! Engaged, Effort

Poor: SJ, Dre Intermittent Sulking /Pouting Standing around, Lack Focus

Poor: KCP [u]Fear of Failure, Lack Focus

This is the eye test.  Not always related to numbers![/u]

[Oracle]

I wanted MCW, but would have been happy with Burke, both of whom, IMO, really fit the offense we wanted to run, but MCW fit the defense better, and I thought would be a near perfect partner for Knight, allowing them to switch roles between offense and defense.

BTW, I fully agree with Wise that all three players would have been better served going to a team that ONLY wanted what they do best. MCW and Burke want to pass the ball and run/lead the team more than thinking of getting theirs. KCP needed to be more of a focal point of the offense, either the first or 2nd option. This happens a lot if you aren't a big star, but that's the NBA!

After Joe picked KCP, I got in line behind our new player. I'm still behind him as I always am for our own draft picks until their rookie contract runs out, and the hard decisions need to be made. I can both criticize and want the best for them at the same time, so on to the game.

WTF is up with KCP & Stanley??? KCP with 5 points in 23 minutes(at least his minutes were cut), Stanley 3 points in 28 minutes. Stanley got more minutes, but he didn't do anything with them.

Interestingly, neither of them made many shot attempts, which is confusing(under 5).

There was good news from other players, including Beno scoring nicely as well as Ish, but I'm really confused by KCP and Stanley.

There are a couple of players that Joe should have taken before KCP (Gobert, The Greek Freak), but Burke and MCW are not two of them.  

Both Burke and MCW have been big disappointments.  (And I advocated for Burke at the time.)

I think disappointments only because both just like KCP were drafted my the wrong teams.  I honestly believe that had they all went to the right teams things would be different for all three players.  IMO both Burke and MCW needed to drafted by winning teams even it it meant coming in not starting but off the bench.   KCP IMO would have been better on a losing team that was willing to give reigns and let him be himself (if that had happened to start he might be looking like the next D-Wade by now)  The Pistons totally mishandle KCP as did Utah with Burke and Philly with MCW.   MCW would have been a lot better with a team like the Knicks or us and Burke would have been better off with the Pistons or the Bucks I think.  

[WTF]

There are a couple of players that Joe should have taken before KCP (Gobert, The Greek Freak), but Burke and MCW are not two of them.  

Both Burke and MCW have been big disappointments.  (And I advocated for Burke at the time.)

I think disappointments only because both just like KCP were drafted my the wrong teams. I honestly believe that had they all went to the right teams things would be different for all three players. IMO both Burke and MCW needed to drafted by winning teams even it it meant coming in not starting but off the bench. KCP IMO would have been better on a losing team that was willing to give reigns and let him be himself (if that had happened to start he might be looking like the next D-Wade by now) The Pistons totally mishandle KCP as did Utah with Burke and Philly with MCW. MCW would have been a lot better with a team like the Knicks or us and Burke would have been better off with the Pistons or the Bucks I think.

[Murph]

There are a couple of players that Joe should have taken before KCP (Gobert, The Greek Freak), but Burke and MCW are not two of them.  

Both Burke and MCW have been big disappointments.  (And I advocated for Burke at the time.)

[WTF]

KG could teach Dre a thing or two about defense:

Adrian Wojnarowski ✔ @WojVerticalNBA
Sources: Beyond joining TNT's studio show, Kevin Garnett still talking w/ teams - including Cavs and Bucks - on 'coaching consultant' role.
5:26 PM - 27 Oct 2016
 572 572 Retweets   643 643 likes
Follow
Adrian Wojnarowski ✔ @WojVerticalNBA
It is possible Garnett could accept jobs with more than one team, making periodic stops into town to work with players, league sources say.
5:29 PM - 27 Oct 2016
 
There are a lot of teams that could use KG as a consultant, I would expect the Timberwolves are part of that mix as well. He’s going to have the respect and ear of players for teams trying to get a message across to a young squad.

Garnett isn’t doing this for the money, he can pick-and-choose where he feels comfortable and needed.

Hard to teach players that don't want to learn anything and this is the ongoing problem with all these young players. Yeah it would be great if Andre had the drive and heart of a player like KG to want to be better but he don't.

Here's what need to happen with Andre 1. he needs to fail to make this season All Star Team. 2. The media needs to tear his ass up. 3. SVG need to bench his ass when he's not dominating in the 4th.

[WTF]

This is just an opinion or should I say my opinion. KCP was just wishful thinking or misguided thinking of Mr. Dumars. I have no hard proof to any of what I'm about to post.

IMHO either MCW or Burke would be far better had we drafted them, and far more value to us today than KCP is. I know how much I touted Burke and still wish we had him on this team but for the very reasons many misguided screams to trade KCP is why we shouldn't have picked him over MCW or Burke.

I never proclaimed KCP was a bad player or would be a bad player, just never the right player for this team. When you draft a score you do it to put the rock in his hands and say lead my team. That was never going to happen with Monroe, Andre, Smith and Jennings, on the team, KCP talents would never shine without a green light to do his thing. Maybe Joe thought he was drafting himself because he too was a scorer and decent defender, but I didn't see any Zeke's or Bill's on this team prior to drafting KCP. It would have been smarter to take players like Burke or MCW who were more suited for the roster at that time.

I would still trade KCP for either player at this point especially for one Trey Burke. As much as I riled against Knight I could love a starting backcourt of Trey and Knight right now, and as much as I hated Moose he would be a perfect fit with Morris and Harris right now. BUT THIS IS ALL HINDSIGHT now a bunch of what if's but it's clear that all the dumbshit Joe did is still effecting this team IMO. Just like Joe screwed up the Dynasty he had in hand he also screwed up 4 consecutive lottery picks.

I don't say this to say this team is bad just that we could have been much better at this point than we are now. It has to be a sad day when I think we would be better off both offensively and defensively had we kept Moose over Andre.

[Murph]

"Stanley Johnson: Color me shocked surprised and disappointed! Regression like crazy from last years summer league, preseason, and season beginning. He looked to be on a close to superstar trajectory, and now Winslow is looking like the better pick! I can deal with needing development(hell, he's a rook), but nobody should be dealing with a guy not listening to coaches and running his mouth. He's still reading his HS & Arizona press clippings, but note to Stanley... that crap has expired!"


Yes, it's becoming increasingly clear that we should have taken Winslow.

[BallinD]

KG could teach Dre a thing or two about defense:

Adrian Wojnarowski ✔ @WojVerticalNBA
Sources: Beyond joining TNT's studio show, Kevin Garnett still talking w/ teams - including Cavs and Bucks - on 'coaching consultant' role.
5:26 PM - 27 Oct 2016
572 572 Retweets 643 643 likes
Follow
Adrian Wojnarowski ✔ @WojVerticalNBA
It is possible Garnett could accept jobs with more than one team, making periodic stops into town to work with players, league sources say.
5:29 PM - 27 Oct 2016

There are a lot of teams that could use KG as a consultant, I would expect the Timberwolves are part of that mix as well. He’s going to have the respect and ear of players for teams trying to get a message across to a young squad.

Garnett isn’t doing this for the money, he can pick-and-choose where he feels comfortable and needed.

[merc]

This is exciting news fellas... looking forward to checking out the new digs.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/reports-pistons-trying-to-finalize-move-to-downtown-detroit-for-2017-18/

[BallinD]

Thanks DX, we see the same things.  And Oracle, always an astute voice of reason.  

However, I would like to caveat your comment, Oracle, about what we can't get for KCP.  I say addition by subtraction!!!  

We got nothing for Josh, and did it hurt us??  We got nothing for Moose, and did it hurt us? No.  If we get a pick or a prospect for KCP I will be happy.  We are awash in young, long, promising wings.  Let's try!!!
 
"deusXango" wrote: "I don't understand the minutes KCP is given when there's players behind him that can be developing; Hilliard, and Silent G are intriguing and Bullock has proven that when given a chance, he can offensively outperform KCP." Here here!

DX: "The worst thing this team needs is for Reggie Jackson to be given the "green light" to play hero ball! He's most effective, with the forwards we have, playing team ball beginning with the pick & roll and getting the talent around him involved; please don't have Harris, Morris, and young Ellenson standing around watching RJ do his thing." Agree, but without another scheme, that is what we will get, I fear.

[Oracle]

There a lot of moving parts, but here's where we're at... after one game.

Why we look bad: It'll take a few games to get these guys playing like a team. The biggest problem right now is coaching and chemistry more than anything else. We went up against a team that is good and has their coaching and chemistry issues mostly resolved, so making sweeping assumptions on such a small dataset isn't wise. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't things we can observe,

KCP: It's beyond silly to keep calling for us to trade KCP! Who in their right mind would trade a guy that makes nothing? What would you expect to get back? You have to take the emotion out of business decision making and focus on what's best for the team. We need to wait until the season is over, and look at sign & trade opportunities. Yes, other teams always inquire about KCP, hoping that like idiots we would trade him on his rookie contract, that's just plain dumb.

Wise has seen this from the beginning, KCP is not, and never was a shooter, that was Joe's vision for him, and SVG wanted that too. If he can be a shooter, this is the year to prove it, or in this offense, we simply HAVE to do better.

Stanley Johnson: Color me shocked surprised and disappointed! Regression like crazy from last years summer league, preseason, and season beginning. He looked to be on a close to superstar trajectory, and now Winslow is looking like the better pick! I can deal with needing development(hell, he's a rook), but nobody should be dealing with a guy not listening to coaches and running his mouth. He's still reading his HS & Arizona press clippings, but note to Stanley... that crap has expired!

Defense: KCP is a plus defender that would be higher if he got some help. Drummond is totally useless, in fact, he's becoming a liability. Harris is what he is, and I doubt he'll get any better defensively, but fortunately it's offset by being a good scorer. Morris is a good defender if the guy isn't too fast, and Ish struggles with size. Stanley, as Ballin says, tries hard, and Don gives him way too many points for that, but trying isn't getting it done.

Bottom line is that we're a defensive mess.

Offense: No surprise here, we have NO 3 Point shooters! Morris, Harris, KCP, Drummond, Ish start, but not one of them is a 3 point threat! Does SVG recognize this???

Conclusion: It's really early, and these are observations, some of which can change. The opponent determines how bad your weaknesses get exposed, so some nights they'll look like world beaters, other nights, not so much. I'm with Wise, the 20 game rule is always a better indicator that a few games unless everything goes south.

We were close in the 4th before they took control, but there were red flags that nobody should ignore. We'll see how SVG handles this, because I believe this is more coaching than anything else at this point.

[Sponsored content]