Stuff

[Oracle]

DX, why are you trying to trade BK7? He's going to be one hell of a player as most people who study NBA players will tell you! They'll also tell you that he's undeveloped! I blame the clown that selected Frank for that and other player development issues!

Frank didn't need to think winning, he needed to think development, and from that would come the winning! He wound up doing neither, and the players have suffered! So I find it hard to see why you're blaming a player for not getting developed in 1.5 years.

Do I believe Burke is a better PG than BK7? Yes! Do I believe Burke is a better player than BK7? Hell no, not at this point, and it may be a few years before that would be the case if ever!

Chauncey is totally DONE!!! Even Grant Hill, who has one foot in the grave, and is missing the other foot, with an elbow on a bananna peel, is a better player right now! Billups had more turnovers than assists in the series, with some big ones down the stretch tonight, looked like warmed over sh!t. Chris Paul is a great player, but he's still a terrible leader, and I have no faith in him winning it all until he gets a grip!

Blake Griffin is almost there as a dominant force in this league! I'm shocked at the level of his play as compared to last year! He's almost a complete player now, and while Zack still gives him trouble, that matchup will be going the other way next year!

Prince, on the other hand was brilliant! Prince runs the Grizzly offense like a well oiled machine! He sets them up and goes to work! All the stuff he tried to do here is working like a charm in Memphis!

Phil/Joe - Well, all I can say is that while Joe has put the organization is a GREAT place, it's just too good(and important) a thing to trust him all the way with! I do think he needs help, because weight watcher just isn't cutting the mustard, er., jelly anymore

[WTF]

I like Chris Paul really I do, but not like I like Rondo, and Derrick Rose. I admit I even liked the comparison made that Burke was Chris Paul type player. IMO I kinda of think Burke has a little of all the top PG's in him but I think the comparison to Paul should stop at perhaps their size. Burke has much more heart than Paul will ever have, Burke is more cut from the same cloth as Rose and Rondo are cut from. In fact I think he's a mesh of Rose and Curry than Paul.

Paul seems soft though talented, he just don't have that killer instinct that a Rondo has or a Rose has. He doesn't carry his team like those 2 can. Deron Williams can at times, but Paul don't have it, sh!t Brandon Knight has more heart than Chris Paul does. If it was any of the above PG running Clippers they would have beaten Memphis tonight.

[Oracle]

I like Chris Paul really I do, but not like I like Rondo, and Derrick Rose. I admit I even liked the comparison made that Burke was Chris Paul type player. IMO I kinda of think Burke has a little of all the top PG's in him but I think the comparison to Paul should stop at perhaps their size. Burke has much more heart than Paul will ever have, Burke is more cut from the same cloth as Rose and Rondo are cut from. In fact I think he's a mesh of Rose and Curry than Paul.

Paul seems soft though talented, he just don't have that killer instinct that a Rondo has or a Rose has. He doesn't carry his team like those 2 can. Deron Williams can at times, but Paul don't have it, sh!t Brandon Knight has more heart than Chris Paul does. If it was any of the above PG running Clippers they would have beaten Memphis tonight.

Not really, I agree with your analysis, but only Rose, Williams, or Rondo are capable of doing what Chris couldn't do! BK7/Burke have the heart, but not the skills and experience to carry any of those jocks, but they will some day.

The comparison of Paul with Burke is not a leadership one, it's more about size and potential ability. Burke is a leader that drives his team to succeed and ONLY if they can't get it done does he unleash his considerable offensive abilities!

I will say that Paul's defense has improved tremendously, and points to how a player of small stature can be very effective defensively, but once Chris decides to be the scorer, he tends to forget how to involve his teammates!

He also has a problem with making dumb plays and costly turnovers at the wrong time!

Memphis was in the middle of having one of their worst outings, and as you said, a better, more team focused PG(Chauncey in his prime) would have taken them tonight. IMO, Memphis is the better team, but not by much, and not in the talent department, the Clippers are VERY talented!

However, the Clippers need to get rid of Chauncey and Caron Butler, they're too toothy for such a young team. They may also need to get rid of Jordan, or get him some help developing before it's too late!

Memphis vs the Thunder should be a great series! IMO, they'll miss Westbrook a lot less in this series, and Perkins should play a larger role in a half court battle!

[Murph]

Flew under the radar!


[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

Naw this was like 2 weeks ago, I just refuse to bring it up. Smart move by Minny I think. Still think we need to consider rehiring Flip.

Good for Flip Saunders. He certainly deserves a position like that with the Timberwolves. In hindsight, Flip was one of the better coaches the Pistons have ever had, and he was a class act and a good guy.

Flip is the one guy that I regret having lit into and having called for his firing. I just wish Flip had made a serious effort to develop our young players (Afflalo, Amir Johnson and Darko) before it was too late, and before Joe shipped them all out of town for several used jock straps and a bag of basketballs.

[deusXango]

DX, why are you trying to trade BK7? He's going to be one hell of a player as most people who study NBA players will tell you! They'll also tell you that he's undeveloped! I blame the clown that selected Frank for that and other player development issues!
I absolutely agree that BK7 is going to be one hell of a player, and you're also correct in that he's undeveloped, however the areas he needs development in as a PG, IMHO, is going to take too many years to manifest, if ever (seeing the floor, getting others involved, and being that cornerstone of leadership). That being said, I absolutely love Knight as a player and think he's a tremendous person; trading him for a better player is not giving up on him, it's called upgrading! That "let's trade Will Bynum, and CV for Chris Paul" is drunken uninformed logic; you've got to give up something of value to receive something of value is all I'm, saying.

Frank didn't need to think winning, he needed to think development, and from that would come the winning! He wound up doing neither, and the players have suffered! So I find it hard to see why you're blaming a player for not getting developed in 1.5 years.
I'm so glad the Lil' Larry era is finally over; I've always felt he was an ass-kissing politician and not an agile thinking coach. IMO he was only interested in the power that went along with being a HC and being in the spotlight. How can you develop talent when you've never developed as a player yourself? I'm just asking.

Do I believe Burke is a better PG than BK7? Yes! Do I believe Burke is a better player than BK7? Hell no, not at this point, and it may be a few years before that would be the case if ever!
A college sophomore vs. what would be a college senior (especially one with 1.7 years of pro experience) is a tad unfair don't you think? As far as trading BK7 goes, you made my point with "do I believe Burke is a better PG than BK7? Yes!" I believe we need a better PG and a drawing card, which is Burke.

Prince, on the other hand was brilliant! Prince runs the Grizzly offense like a well oiled machine! He sets them up and goes to work! All the stuff he tried to do here is working like a charm in Memphis!
I miss Tayshaun too!! I'm glad that he's in an environment where he can thrive and compete.

Phil/Joe - Well, all I can say is that while Joe has put the organization is a GREAT place, it's just too good(and important) a thing to trust him all the way with! I do think he needs help, because weight watcher just isn't cutting the mustard, er., jelly anymore
I'm not really a big Phillip fan but, Joe has totally destroyed my trust in him with the grocery list of asinine decisions he's made over the last 6 years; out of realistic desperation I'm willing to trust almost anyone (considering Joe just got done interviewing Lindsey Hunter for the vacant HC position!).

[WTF]

What the deal with all this garbage posting.

[cool breeze]

It seems obvious that Joe Dumars must now submit his resignation. Maybe all this happened because Joe came to Mr. Gores to announce that he wanted to hire L. Hunter? None of us know but Gores must have done this Phil Jackson thing to get Joe where it hurts which would be his pride. It sure must be nice to be Phil Jackson even if he has to endure all that physical pain the press talks about. It is doubtful that Phil wants anything to do with the Pistons but why not take some cash and help Gores with his plot to force Dumars out. Maybe this will leave an opening for Isiah Thomas. That is who I want running this ship now that we know there is no way Laimbeer will be given a chance. I think Laimbeer would be the perfect fit to replace Dumars. I always think he is dead on when he comments on things going on in the NBA. However, Thomas has a lot of experience. He has a good sense about players. There is no way he will not remove Stuckey and other pets of Joe's if he gets the job. However, it is doubtful that Phil would recommend Isiah to either be the Pistons coach or GM. My question is how much money is Gores paying Phil to play his role in removing Dumars?

With all this drama the fact remains that the Detroit Pistons have some good young players and the owner needs to know that it will take time before those guys start winning. Maybe Gores is a gunslinger who wants a quick solution to his problems with the team and will start trading all of them for some pipe dream idea of the Zen master. I have bonded with these young Pistons. Some want Smith and some want Rondo. Rondo is injured. Will he ever be the same? Is Burke as good of a fit in the NBA as Knight at any position? I sure don't know and would not want to bet the farm on the hope that he is a better fit. No point guard can be successful without good athletic big men. Calderon made no difference. The other fact that must be considered when suggesting that we part with some of our young talent is that if that happens it might take another 3 years of some of the suggested vets to be added to form any type of team chemistry and improve the percentage of winning. We have two potential outstanding big men on this team. We have a rare extremely talented guy in Knight. We have Kyle Singler who beat out his competition in his rookie season to start at two different positions. Coaches trust Singler because he is a complete player. Next season his shooting with greatly improve as a 2nd year player. Jerebco will have a really good season next year. He needs a new coach and that is it. We need better role players on this team. We need those role players to play better defense than the current players. Our other two rookies look good to be. Both have their strengths and both can play defense. Maybe they can earn a bigger role next season. And Detroit needs another big man. If Phil Jackson advises Gores on this current roster, he will mention Derek Fisher. We need a guy like that. He crushed Houston in the last game of that series with is defense and three point shooting but mostly with his defense. I doubt that Phil would endorse keeping Stuckey, Charlie V, Bynum or Maxiell. Our Russian big man has a lot to learn but he might grow with the rest of the club if given a chance. But why not draft Zeller which would allow Detroit to eventually have the best front court in the game? If not Zeller than whoever makes the pick better be lucky with the choice because I see no really talented defensive orientated shooting guards or small forwards on the draft boards.

[WTF]

Smith was a fan of the Pistons growing up in the late 1980s, so to see Jackson engaged with the Pistons in any capacity is a little weird.

"It doesn't look natural from a Pistons perspective," Smith said. "I'm thinking as a Pistons fan before I was in the NBA, from MSU. I'm old school. (Seeing someone) from the Bulls or Celtics, the old-school rivalries."
- Steve Smith

But didn't it look unnatural that no players from the 80's beside Joe haven't been a part in this organization since in any kind of capacity (Coach, assistant, front office) not one person in the media moaned about that. I agree having Phil here is almost as unnatural as if MJ own the team, or Bird was the GM and Magic coached it. Yeah it almost makes your stomach turn just to think about it.

If Phil can get us the right coach then great, if Phil replaces Joe so be it! IMO the greatest enemy to Zeke, Vinny, Bill, and the others has been Joe Dumars.

[Oracle]

Don that's an excellent post, and brought up something I didn't think about!

How do you get rid of a legend when you're a rookie owner, and will get slammed if it isn't done right? Well, you use another(bigger) Legend to do the job for you!

You're right, Phil may not want the job, but he can plant the seeds of incompetence right at Joe's door step(it won't be hard), and pave the way for somebody else!

My fear is that it won't be someone with Piston DNA! Not that I'm totally against that, but I also don't want no stinking western run & gun, no defense playing team in the Palace!

On our young players, Knight, Singler, Middleton, English, JJ, Monroe & Drummond are all keepers. Do I want Burke? YES! Would I trade up to get him? NO!

If Burke isn't there when we pick, I say get the big guard, Carter-Williams. Yeah Burke got the best of him in their game, but he had a stellar tournament otherwise, and has the size that Joe likes(if Joe is doing the picking).

All I got to say is that when the Buzzards are circling Joe's carcass, the pickings are going to be enormous!

[Oracle]

Smith was a fan of the Pistons growing up in the late 1980s, so to see Jackson engaged with the Pistons in any capacity is a little weird.

"It doesn't look natural from a Pistons perspective," Smith said. "I'm thinking as a Pistons fan before I was in the NBA, from MSU. I'm old school. (Seeing someone) from the Bulls or Celtics, the old-school rivalries."
- Steve Smith

But didn't it look unnatural that no players from the 80's beside Joe haven't been a part in this organization since in any kind of capacity (Coach, assistant, front office) not one person in the media moaned about that. I agree having Phil here is almost as unnatural as if MJ own the team, or Bird was the GM and Magic coached it. Yeah it almost makes your stomach turn just to think about it.

If Phil can get us the right coach then great, if Phil replaces Joe so be it! IMO the greatest enemy to Zeke, Vinny, Bill, and the others has been Joe Dumars.

Wise, that's a very important point that you're making!

The importance of what Joe failed to do is coming back to haunt him!

The best way to insure your survival is to have more of the people who love you around! If he had reached out to Laimbeer or Zeke, they would be around to have his back!

Right now the only people that have Joe's back is oddly the press who he also screwed over for years!

My concern is the Pistons, and Joe has us vulnerable!

[merc]

It feels wrong Phil (the enemy) Jackson helping the Pistons... his view of Detroit and the Pistons is scum of the earth... get this asshole outta here we don't his BS!

[deusXango]

Mike and Pippen, Shaq and Kobe....Andre and the Moose? The reasons I don't like Phillip is that he'll only back a "sure thing" and he has a way of influencing the commissioner; not a bad guy to have on your team. Are we going to keep begging for Joe to get another chance when he's yet to give any ex-Piston a chance? I don't include Michael Curry as a true Piston, rather he was a player who drew a paycheck from the Pistons, and was given a chance to start by the Pistons but, a true, blue Piston? Nah!! Joe's next chance is a 50/50 proposition and I for one don't like the odds, for what's at stake.

[deusXango]

Aren't you Joe's brother-in-law? Since you've been a member of NBATV nothing else has "felt weird" going on with the Pistons Old School? Please!

[deusXango]

"Dumars, by all accounts, is running the coaching search, and, for the first time since selecting Michael Curry in 2008, is in position to choose a coach without certain constraints from ownership."
WTF? I can't believe Michael Curry is being cheered as a worthwhile selection (only to be followed up with a Lindsey Hunter interview this year). This is Gores team on which Dumars has a job!

"Not only that, there's the draft coming up, which Dumars has excelled at in recent years, as well as free agency, where Dumars deftly created cap space by ridding the Pistons of bad contracts."
It's been pointed out ad gag 'um that doing the obvious when Monroe, Knight, and Drummond fell to Detroit is not an example of Dumars excelling; drafting Cleaves, White, Darko, and Daye were examples of excelling in stupidity! Deft creativity was giving up a first round pick to rid the team of Gordon? It makes sense to have traded away Prince and kept Stuckey as a cost cutting measure? Listen clown, it only works if we let Calderon walk!!!

"Those two facts seemed to have fallen by the wayside with Pistons fans who suffer from selective memory. They're all too eager to hand the reins over to Jackson, an amnesia one would think Gores is too smart to also suffer from."
Amnesia is a description of the condition one suffers with who's forgotten what the prerogative of ownership is; one such as yourself Vinnie Goodwill.

It seems that the attack on the public's intelligence has begun, and Ellis, Goodwill, with an able assist from Steve Smith, are the media leaders of the assault. Joe's ability to control the media is more than a conspiracy theory.

[Oracle]

"Dumars, by all accounts, is running the coaching search, and, for the first time since selecting Michael Curry in 2008, is in position to choose a coach without certain constraints from ownership."
WTF? I can't believe Michael Curry is being cheered as a worthwhile selection (only to be followed up with a Lindsey Hunter interview this year). This is Gores team on which Dumars has a job! - You're completely missing the point.

"Not only that, there's the draft coming up, which Dumars has excelled at in recent years, as well as free agency, where Dumars deftly created cap space by ridding the Pistons of bad contracts."
It's been pointed out ad gag 'um that doing the obvious when Monroe, Knight, and Drummond fell to Detroit is not an example of Dumars excelling; drafting Cleaves, White, Darko, and Daye were examples of excelling in stupidity! Deft creativity was giving up a first round pick to rid the team of Gordon? It makes sense to have traded away Prince and kept Stuckey as a cost cutting measure? Listen clown, it only works if we let Calderon walk!!! - It's an EASILY provable FACT that none of those picks were obvious or easy!

"Those two facts seemed to have fallen by the wayside with Pistons fans who suffer from selective memory. They're all too eager to hand the reins over to Jackson, an amnesia one would think Gores is too smart to also suffer from."
Amnesia is a description of the condition one suffers with who's forgotten what the prerogative of ownership is; one such as yourself Vinnie Goodwill. - My only comment here is that it's really bad to credit bad things to a person, but credit good things to magic!

It seems that the attack on the public's intelligence has begun, and Ellis, Goodwill, with an able assist from Steve Smith, are the media leaders of the assault. Joe's ability to control the media is more than a conspiracy theory.

I think it's fine to get on Joe for the stuff he screwed up, CV & Gordon immediately come to mind, but even then I didn't consider those two as the slugs they turned out to be. In fact, the only risk I saw was CV, I was sure Gordon was going to work out, and most here did too!

You can be sick of excuses, or just want to clean house, that's all valid!

However, what does bother me a bit is when this made up selective stuff keeps surfacing as pseudo reasons to get rid of Joe.

You know, sometimes you change coaches just because you need to clear the air! Everything has its season, and maybe Joe number is up... who knows!

But I do know what he did and accomplished here, and it's a lot more than 90% of GM's out there have, and that's a fact!

BTW, Murph, I agree with you on Flip!

We were hard on him and didn't appreciate him until the lineup of clowns came to town! I'm really happy for Flip, he was a solid classy guy, and a really good coach!

[Oracle]

Darrel Walker?

Who's next... Lee357 or Rufus Henry?

Somebody please stop these media clowns before they make up another rumor!

Although I might consider the great Rufus Henry! He was arguably the greatest Piston to ever lace up!

But he would probably have to kill some of these players today! They just don't have the toughness they had back when Rufus was playing!

[WTF]

Sure Joe gets the credit for drafting Monroe, Knight and Drummond but it still get over-stated. Because all of these players did fall dead in his lap and none were invited for workouts prior to being selected, they weren't even on Joe's radar. Yes these were obvious and easy selections.

The media tries to spin the selection of these three as if Joe spent all of pre-draft studying them and coming up with some master plan to draft them. Joe never intended to draft any of them largely because they all were predicted to be drafted in the top 5. Are we to now believe Joe had something to do with them falling luckily in his lap, please Joe didn't do his homework on any these picks because if he did he would have drafted Walker over Knight, and he was already sold on drafting Henson.

That's Sharp, Foster, and Goodwill just a matter of time before Ellis chimes in.

[WTF]

I guess I wasn't so wrong after all with my supporting Mr. Flip Saunders,

[deusXango]

I remember how Phillip Boy would go on and on about how great Stuckey would be if "this and that" took place, but now he's one of the strongest voices for his removal from the team; I expect that sooner, rather than later, a lot of vocal Joe supporters who insist on living in a past that's getting further and further away with every blunder, will eventually turn on Joe Dumars out of exercising common sense! What did I mean by that? Simply that at some point fans of the Pistons will realize that Joe ain't Mr. Piston, and he's been letting the fans down for unexplained reasons, and will be calling for his head like a lot of fans are now.

[WTF]

DX, that's because they've been living off 2004 Championship like it happen yesterday. A lot of those supporters already know the truth but living in denial seems to make more sense for them oppose to the reality of what's been going on since 2004.

They don't acknowledge all the bad draft selection prior to the last three, they don't acknowledge that Joe personally blew an opportunity to win at least 2 more Championship by standing pat on trades and FA. They don't acknowledge all the bad coaching moves, starting with firing Saunders nor do they acknowledge the bad trades he has made.

It been wait and see since 2004 and all the teams failures has been everyone else fault but Joe's

[cool breeze]

It is a sad thing to say but our Pistons play a lot like the Nets only our team lacks the talents that is on the Nets roster. Individuals playing as individuals on offense never looking to pass and never moving hard without the ball because teammates do not have the talent to pass well. Then lackluster defensive effort by maybe 3 players who are on the floor while the other two are busting their asses to do the right thing. That has been our Pistons since Billups left the team. Those Bulls played with so much heart. Noah was fantastic. Noah and Boozer were fantastic together. No Hinrich or dang and they still win. I keep saying that the key to winning in the playoffs is that you need stable big men who know how to play defense and actually give 100% effort over an entire game. Little Nate Robinson has the flu but plays big minutes for two games. In this 7th game he gets his head crunched while on the floor by Wallace and gets up to hit a big jump shot. That game 7 playing on the Nets home court was a thing of beauty. The Bulls gave me hope for the NBA. The refs didn't try to conspire and determine the outcome. The Bulls team played so well as a team on both ends making the extra pass on offense and watching those big men sprint back on defense almost brought tears to my eyes. I haven't seen that type of effort in any game by our Piston team in 4 years. Instead we see Charlie V jogging back on defense with some others just in front of him. I never see Monroe run full blast back on defense. Maybe he can't do it but maybe he doesn't know any better. I could care less if Chicago gets blown off the floor when they play Miami. The Bulls - Nets series might go down as the most interesting basketball played this season. By the way, did Dumars notice that defense was a factor in this series? There is no excuse that can be made for Dumars when it comes to the fact that he is responsible for picking soft players who have never had any history of playing even average defense. Damn it all !!!

[cool breeze]

I am not getting Goodwill today. He says that Joe's only coaching selection was Curry and he will take the blame for that hire but none of the other mistakes. But Joe was President of operations wasn't he Vincent? What kind of testicles does Joe have if he kept silent about Kuester and Frank if he didn't agree with their selection as head coaches? Then taking this a step further, why did Joe Dumars go AWOL when the team of jerk offs he signed refused to attend the shoot around in Philly and openly defied the coaching staff? Dumars should have showed some leadership at that time but acted like a mouse peaking around the empty Palace seats at the home games during that time period. I thought that Joe might release at least one player over that incident but he paved the way for the players to play like the lazy asses they were for the rest of the season. What about the innocent season ticket holders and PASS Piston fans who had to watch that Dumars team? Notice that I didn't say Kuester team because that coach didn't select the players he had to coach. Am I supposed to hate Kuester because Stuckey played like a loser? Who can coach Stuckey and get the max out of him? I hated the basketball players who wore the Piston uniform at that time period. To think that they didn't care enough to attend a light walk through practice while making millions of dollars made me want to barf. Those players were a group were A-holes and nothing more. Dumars created that team of misfits not the coaching staff. Remember guys like Charlie V and Stuckey telling the press that "losing has nothing to do with our talent"? Did Joe encourage them to say that so fans would think that Joe did sign the right players and this failure on the part of the team had nothing to do with Dumars? NO that is on Joe Dumars Vincent. You accused fans for forgetting certain positive things but it seems that in your quest to twist history to help out Joe, you forgot some of the facts that still grind us Piston fans to no end. Now hire Thomas to lead this Piston team once and for all Mr. Gores. Bring back the real Bad Boys.

[WTF]

The local media has to make these excuses for Joe after all they were a large part of the cover up by providing cover and misdirection of everyone of Joe's screw ups. They blame the hiring of Kuester on Mrs. Davidson as well as the signing of Ben Gordon and Charlie saying Joe hands were tied he did have a choice.

Funny though they credit him for the good hires (Rick, Larry, and Flip) but excused him from the firings by putting it off on Mr. Davidson. I understand Larry but Flip and Rick they all backed it and they all supported the Curry hire.

The local media all but destroyed Rip's character in protecting Joe and the hiring of Kuester but now Joe had nothing to do with the hiring Kuester.

Even still these assholes still use Mrs. Davidson as an excuse, and prior to Mr. Davidson passing the excuse was Mr. Davidson was cheap. Always some excuse.

The local media won't criticize Joe for standing pat, and drafting horribly. yet they're so eager to praise him on no-brain picks of Monroe, Knight and Drummond as if he was some sort of draft guru.

They won't talk about the bad salary and contract dumps that accidentally resulted into that 2004 team. They passed it on as if Joe was a genius but it has been prove over time and time again that it was all luck and not strategy behind it. The media never had the courage to call Joe out on why the team was stuck after 2005 they just blamed on the coach and aging players

[Phil-Good]

Just to keep you boys up to date here is my excuses for Joe Dumars.


#1. Greg Monroe

#2. Andre Drummods

#3. Cap Space

#4 Brandon Knight

#5 Jones Jerebko

#6 K.Singler

#7 Chris Middlton

Those are all my up to date Joe Dumars excuses.

But don't worry. There will be more excuses for Joe Dumars coming very soon. So please be ready!

[deusXango]

Stick 'em up your ass Phillip!! I've had enough excuse making for an ostrich who won't face the fans with some honest talk about the team we support.

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