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Crazy Wise

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:36 am

Wise, you're one of the most inconsistent posters here Smile

"I'm not all that sure about Carter-Williams after this game because I'd fully expected him to give Burke a run for his money." - Wise

What????

Earlier you were saying that if Michigan lost we should still feel the same about Burke, but not the other guy?

Wise you seriously need professional help lol!
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Michigan near collapse

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:39 am

Was mostly coaching!

WTF was the coach thinking, this team is not a team built or conditioned to playing scared and holding on to a lead by showing fear!

He got them out of their game and rhythm, and it almost cost them the game.

Players=Good, Coach=Bad
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Carter-Williams vs Burke

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:42 am

Carter-Williams is the better talent and prospect, and I believe the best PG in the draft for the pro game!

Having said that, Burke is a close 2nd, and if we do go with a guard, Joe will really be on the hot seat!

If he goes with his head he'll pick Carter-Williams! But with that pick he'll have the entire state in his grill for passing on Burke!

IMO, he may get bailed out because one of the two may be gone when we pick!
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Knight

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:51 am

Knight gets takes a lot of hits on this board, some deserved, some not.

However, the numbers do speak for themselves, and I find them impressive for a player with 1.5 NBA seasons under his belt!

Knight is averaging: 13.2 PPG, 3.3 RBG and dishing 4 APG

Those are really good numbers for a player at his level, even though I think in a better offense he could score a bit more, and he could use a couple more assists per game.

Other than that, it's a good progression and he appears on his way to the numbers I'd like to see, 16-18ppg, 4rbg and 7 APG
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DAMN THAT ORACLE HERE HE GO AGAIN

Post  WTF on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:12 am

Oracle wrote:Wise, you're one of the most inconsistent posters here Smile

"I'm not all that sure about Carter-Williams after this game because I'd fully expected him to give Burke a run for his money." - Wise

What????

Earlier you were saying that if Michigan lost we should still feel the same about Burke, but not the other guy?

Wise you seriously need professional help lol!

No I said if they lose "I" not "We" would still feel the same. My adjusted opinion has nothing to with Carter-Williams winning or losing (Stop Putting Words In My Mouth). #1. I still think Carter-Williams has talent, but it almost seemed as if he choked. #2. As I stated I expected him to give Burke fits and he couldn't when all the pressure was on Burke in this game the 6'6 Carter-Williams could not get off on Burke. For Pete Sake's Burke blocked him twice if I'm not mistaken. #3. As Sparma stated about him whining on the bench when his team still had a chance to win kind of sucked when your leader on the bench with tears.

Really what do you think this is some equal opportunity thing that just because I have an opinion of one player it should be the same for the other. I'm not consistent, but I think you look for it tb Beside I've been saying draft Burke like forever. Pistons have enough mushy pussy on the bench the last thing we need is our PG whining when the going gets tough.

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OKAY I SEE NOW YOU'RE BACK ON THE KNIGHT TRAIN

Post  WTF on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:15 am

Oracle wrote:Knight gets takes a lot of hits on this board, some deserved, some not.

However, the numbers do speak for themselves, and I find them impressive for a player with 1.5 NBA seasons under his belt!

Knight is averaging: 13.2 PPG, 3.3 RBG and dishing 4 APG

Those are really good numbers for a player at his level, even though I think in a better offense he could score a bit more, and he could use a couple more assists per game.

Other than that, it's a good progression and he appears on his way to the numbers I'd like to see, 16-18ppg, 4rbg and 7 APG

Keep Hope Alive about those 7assist lol!
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THIS WE CAN AGREE ON

Post  WTF on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:21 am

Oracle wrote:Was mostly coaching!

WTF was the coach thinking, this team is not a team built or conditioned to playing scared and holding on to a lead by showing fear!

He got them out of their game and rhythm, and it almost cost them the game.

Players=Good, Coach=Bad

I hope he tell the players to just go and play and have fun Monday night. Like them do there thing and they win. I ee all the talking heads have them losing Monday night.
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Wise, are you serious?

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:54 am

I've seen people confuse concepts, but you not only take the cake, you steal the ingredients too!

Wise, Wise, Wise, somewhere in your education, something is seriously missing.

"Really what do you think this is some equal opportunity thing that just because I have an opinion of one player it should be the same for the other. I'm not consistent(that much is for sure), but I think you look for it(you're damn skippy) Beside I've been saying draft Burke like forever. Pistons have enough mushy pussy on the bench the last thing we need is our PG whining when the going gets tough." - Wise

Wise, do you know the difference between opinion, standards and consistency?

It's shocking because you whine about players consistency and you don't have a dimes worth of it in anything you do!

It's not equal opportunity to JUDGE anything on a consistent standard! These are two seperate concepts!

Without consistency, you're, well, I don't want to insult, but it isn't good!

To be consistent requires that you have some basic standards by which you live, without those there is no consistency.

But I'm wasting my time here because if you already admit what I'm sure is evident, well, my work here is done, LOL!
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Confused... again?

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:01 am

WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:Knight gets takes a lot of hits on this board, some deserved, some not.

However, the numbers do speak for themselves, and I find them impressive for a player with 1.5 NBA seasons under his belt!

Knight is averaging: 13.2 PPG, 3.3 RBG and dishing 4 APG

Those are really good numbers for a player at his level, even though I think in a better offense he could score a bit more, and he could use a couple more assists per game.

Other than that, it's a good progression and he appears on his way to the numbers I'd like to see, 16-18ppg, 4rbg and 7 APG

Keep Hope Alive about those 7assist

Another confused response!

No Wise, statement of fact is not an endorsement... again, two different concepts!

Knight has had a good season by any measure of stats, but stats don't tell the whole story.

While Knight has proven to this poster that he belongs, and could have a place on this team, he hasn't proven to me that he's capable of being the starting PG for this team... yet!

If we drafted either Burke or Carter-Williams, I'd feel more comfortable putting the team in their hands than Knight at this point, and forcing Knight to prove that he deserved the gig!

IMO, Knight rises to any challenge, and would up his game, but he appears to need a real challenge(witness how he plays against his peers like Cleveland).

A PG has got to get up for all games, not just some of them, and he'll learn that, but right now, he's only proven that he's a good guard, just not a good point guard!
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ANOTHER MATRIX SEQUEL

Post  WTF on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:15 am

Oracle wrote:I've seen people confuse concepts, but you not only take the cake, you steal the ingredients too!

Wise, Wise, Wise, somewhere in your education, something is seriously missing.

"Really what do you think this is some equal opportunity thing that just because I have an opinion of one player it should be the same for the other. I'm not consistent(that much is for sure), but I think you look for it(you're damn skippy) Beside I've been saying draft Burke like forever. Pistons have enough mushy pussy on the bench the last thing we need is our PG whining when the going gets tough." - Wise - You Know That Was A Damn Type-O

Wise, do you know the difference between opinion, standards and consistency?

It's shocking because you whine about players consistency and you don't have a dimes worth of it in anything you do!

It's not equal opportunity to JUDGE anything on a consistent standard! These are two seperate concepts!

Without consistency, you're, well, I don't want to insult, but it isn't good!

To be consistent requires that you have some basic standards by which you live, without those there is no consistency.

But I'm wasting my time here because if you already admit what I'm sure is evident, well, my work here is done, LOL!

Standard: At no time did I set a goal, expectation, a measurement of success in my original comment for either Burke or Carter-Williams.

Opinion: Would be a group of people looking up to the sky on a cloudy day and guessing all the different shades of grey and trying to get everyone to agree.

Consistency: Is that every day in the Matrix can one Oracle bake cookies that really don't exist while smelling his own ass and dodging turd in Slow-Motion while screaming "Wise, Wise, Wise" over and over.
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Dismissing Frank Would Be Wrong

Post  lemonpen on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:25 pm

After scanning the Eastern Conference rosters I figure we rank 11th. IMO we come in higher than Bobcats, Magic, Cavs, Raptors and are really close to the Sixers (less Andrew Bynum). The Sixers are arguably better coached but are still 5.5 games out of the playoff picture.
In our roster I only see three NBA starting caliber players in Moose, Stuckey and JC. For whatever reason Andre hasn't displayed the necessary endurance to play starters minutes (35 min/gm) otherwise he would make 4. Of those 4 only Moose and JC are consistent enough at any particular skill to be considered playoff caliber starters.

After the starters there is no one coming off of our bench that can take over a game more than 12 times a season. As an example Jamal Crawford , a reserve carries his teams offense 30+ times a season (scoring 19-30 pts)

Lawrence Frank can't turn chicken **** into chicken salad. Neither can Doug Collins. The better coach with an equivalent roster has yielded 6 more wins than us, but again is 6 wins short of the 8th and final PO spot.

We might yet again decide to flip the switch on our coaching carousel but our basic flaw will go unchanged.
Playoff teams have playoff caliber TALENT.
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I COULD'NT AGREE MORE CONCERNING ROSTER

Post  WTF on Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:30 pm

lemonpen wrote:After scanning the Eastern Conference rosters I figure we rank 11th. IMO we come in higher than Bobcats, Magic, Cavs, Raptors and are really close to the Sixers (less Andrew Bynum). The Sixers are arguably better coached but are still 5.5 games out of the playoff picture.
In our roster I only see three NBA starting caliber players in Moose, Stuckey and JC. For whatever reason Andre hasn't displayed the necessary endurance to play starters minutes (35 min/gm) otherwise he would make 4. Of those 4 only Moose and JC are consistent enough at any particular skill to be considered playoff caliber starters.

After the starters there is no one coming off of our bench that can take over a game more than 12 times a season. As an example Jamal Crawford , a reserve carries his teams offense 30+ times a season (scoring 19-30 pts)

Lawrence Frank can't turn chicken **** into chicken salad. Neither can Doug Collins. The better coach with an equivalent roster has yielded 6 more wins than us, but again is 6 wins short of the 8th and final PO spot.

We might yet again decide to flip the switch on our coaching carousel but our basic flaw will go unchanged.
Playoff teams have playoff caliber TALENT.

Our rosters stinks but perhaps Lil Larry still needs to be fired.
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IN DAYS OF OLD

Post  deusXango on Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:59 pm

There were, at one time, young men that had unique individual skills that set them apart and above the ordinary; they were swift of hand, possessed a keen eye, and had unerring accuracy. In Fuedal times they were called Samurai or Ronin (if they had no master to serve), in the Wild West they were called gunfighters or hired guns; todays NBA has such men in their number, they're called offensive specialists.

Jamal Crawford, J.R. Smith, and Jason Terry are the most well known offensive specialists but, there are others; after one and a half years I'm adding BK7 to that list, and thankfully he's ours. None of the specialists are starters but, they all impact games and their teams success depends on their performances. All they have to do is put points on the board with consistency and take those game changing "big shots." None of them makes a living at the rim, and none of them are ballhogs; the craft they practice requires intelligence as well as aggression. Brandon Knight is developing into that type of player and if he's not forced into a "pigeon hole" by numbskulls (both fan, coach, and management alike) he could very easily be the best in the days to come. Crawford, Smith, and especially Terry are getting old and Knight is the new kid on the block.

If we keep insisting on forcing our expectations of him being this wonderful PG and he has no real PG instincts, he'll be a big disappointment. Leaving him over-matched at the SG spot is just as ludicrous. We've got this "slide him over to..." mentality that's a ridiculous stop-gap move, when failure becomes apparrent, and it rarely works, never for us; allowing the player to embrace his true value to a winning situation, by coming off the bench as a specialist with the "green light" that never goes off, is not a knock on a player, when an instant scorer is required for championship contention. From Vinnie Johnson to Mike Miller and all the champions in between, there's been an offensive specialist that took the team over the top. How can you say you have love for your team and like a player but don't want the team to do what's best for it's success and the development of said player? I ask that question because it's been validated time and again by fans and our present management.

The sooner non-scoring, scoring options are removed from the equation, and a coach with real people skills who can manage the personalities and egos of men is brought in, the sooner we can see more clearly what we have in this special young man. The sooner we have Knight in his rightful place, the sooner we can begin building our starting backcourt (we don't have a starting quality PG or SG right now)! Logic is calling for us to draft a PG and sign a SG during free agency but, it remains to be seen if we're capable of doing what's logical. We also need a SF but, another starting quality PF wouldn't hurt our upward development either (Rome wasn't built in a day).

Lemon, Wise, you guys surprise me by demonizing the team, while subtly glorifying the continued need for Lil' Larry's services; at least 8 out of 10 fans and media members are for his removal. Granted, the team is not a contender for a championship but, it's certainly not the worst team to be fielded in the last 5 years!!!

In days of old I remember us getting things right and everybody was happy with the results. I don't think Chuck Daly would be trying to continually start Knight, nor do I believe Larry Brown would have put up with Stuckey's performances of the last two season's, while calling for the ball. Given the choice between the two, I believe both coaches would've recognized the unique and special talents of Brandon Knight and utilized those talents as major ingredients for a successful 2nd unit.
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AN APOLOGY TO WISE

Post  deusXango on Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:08 pm

I apologize Wise, you did say Lil' Larry should be fired; I got carried away but, that's no excuse for not getting my facts right. Forgive me.
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Dismissing Frank Would Be Wrong

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:53 pm

Wow!

If you can only see what you're being shown, then that's a good response.

However, if you can see what's really there, the picture is totally different!

Drummond isn't a NBA starter because for whatever reason he can't play starter minutes? WOW!

Does the word conditioning mean anything to you? You have to be ALLOWED to play more minutes to get conditioned to playing more minutes! This is something DESIGNED to lay the Jedi Mind trick on you... please resist!

BTW, if you look at this NBA roster the way you do, it's a really strange mistake.

What's the purpose of rebuilding with young talent, and what's the thing you know getting out of the gate, and it's talent independent... NONE of them are NBA starters!!!

They're starting on teams like ours, but could they start on OKC, Spurs, etc? No, it depends on the team and their tollerance of young player errors and inconsistency(see Wise, lol).

Hell, the veteran you declared a NBA starter couldn't even start for the effing Raptors!!!

If you were a Raptor fan, you'd be calling him not capable of starting in the NBA!

Rebuilding isn't easy, and especially for guys like Lemon, who has a history of preferring veterans anyway, and it's especially hard when the coaching is so poor!

Stuckey is a possible NBA starter(again, depending on team), but a succession of bad, check that, horrible coaches has made him appear bad!

So, my advice is similar to football!

Before you make statements like that, you need to know down and distance!

Statements like that are dependent on coaching, team, and the state of the player in terms of experience in the development process.
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AN APOLOGY TO WISE

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:56 pm

deusXango wrote:I apologize Wise, you did say Lil' Larry should be fired; I got carried away but, that's no excuse for not getting my facts right. Forgive me.

Don't believe it, Wise doesn't want Frank to be fired!
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Knicks are for real!

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:00 pm

Big win over OKC in OKC!
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AN APOLOGY TO WISE

Post  Phil1980boy on Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:42 pm

Sour Cynic. You should apologize to me for being A pure JERK-Off year after year... lol lol
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Knight

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:30 pm

Showing the full package so far tonight!
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Frank

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:08 pm

You have to give him credit for the way they're playing right now, and they're playing good even in losses!

You also have to shake your head, because the talent was always there!

JJ has been a beast off the bench, doing what only he does! Keeping posessions alive, running the floor, rebounding and surprisingly scoring very well!

I do see that Drummond's presence alone on defense makes this team better, but Monroe & Knight are also playing like the players we thought they would be when the season started.

Is this enough to save Frank's job? I doubt it, it may be too little too late, and is similar to a player in a contract year... all of a sudden, he knows how to coach!

Joe needs to seriously STOP annointing our "Players of the Future" every draft!

Let these players EARN that label before you keep passing it out without any evidence to support it!

If I'm honest, I'm guilty as well, but I'm a fan, I can do stupid stuff lol
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Am I crazy?

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:11 pm

IMO, this team plays differently when Calderon isn't in the lineup... in a good way!

I don't know if I'm seeing this correctly, but it feels to me like they're more agressive!
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FRANK & JOSE

Post  deusXango on Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:12 am

Oracle wrote:You have to give him credit for the way they're playing right now, and they're playing good even in losses!

You also have to shake your head, because the talent was always there!

JJ has been a beast off the bench, doing what only he does! Keeping posessions alive, running the floor, rebounding and surprisingly scoring very well!

I do see that Drummond's presence alone on defense makes this team better, but Monroe & Knight are also playing like the players we thought they would be when the season started.

Is this enough to save Frank's job? I doubt it, it may be too little too late, and is similar to a player in a contract year... all of a sudden, he knows how to coach!

IMO, this team plays differently when Calderon isn't in the lineup... in a good way!
Oracle, Lil' Larry should pay for his "sins of the past." He refused to not only start Drummond but, he didn't allow Monroe and Drummond to play together (he acted as if it was some sort of crime to do so), he didn't give J.J. any PT during the year (I know he started out the season sucking but so did Stuckey), and he wasted pretty much the entire season with Middleton and English sitting on the bench; these players are providing the excitement and competitive play today. Fire Lil' Larry at season's end!!!

I didn't want to bring it up but, Calderon was only starting in Toronto this year because their regular starting PG was injured; he had fallen from favor (in spite of his assist to TO ratio) with management in Toronto because the team wasn't winning under his leadership. So, no Oracle, you're not crazy.
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Dismissing Frank Would Be Wrong

Post  lemonpen on Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:06 pm

Oracle wrote:Wow!

If you can only see what you're being shown, then that's a good response.
Thanks !!! I think ???

However, if you can see what's really there, the picture is totally different!
OK

Drummond isn't a NBA starter because for whatever reason he can't play starter minutes? WOW!
Does the word conditioning mean anything to you? You have to be ALLOWED to play more minutes to get conditioned to playing more minutes! This is something DESIGNED to lay the Jedi Mind trick on you... please resist!

More minutes is a typical players answer. I'm gonna look for a metric that speaks to efficiency with incremental PT.

BTW, if you look at this NBA roster the way you do, it's a really strange mistake.
What's the purpose of rebuilding with young talent, and what's the thing you know getting out of the gate, and it's talent independent... NONE of them are NBA starters!!!
They're starting on teams like ours, but could they start on OKC, Spurs, etc? No, it depends on the team and their tollerance of young player errors and inconsistency(see Wise, lol).

Of course. It would be foolish to make comparisons to the Spurs or OKC. My comparison was present day and to a team very similar to ourselves regarding (a) talent and (b) their inability to make the top 8 despite a more proven coach.

Hell, the veteran you declared a NBA starter couldn't even start for the effing Raptors!!!
If you were a Raptor fan, you'd be calling him not capable of starting in the NBA!

He started 58 games somewhere, and not all here.

Rebuilding isn't easy, and especially for guys like Lemon, who has a history of preferring veterans anyway, and it's especially hard when the coaching is so poor!
And here I thought myself to be a pretty strong supporter of Moose, Brandon and Dre.

Stuckey is a possible NBA starter(again, depending on team), but a succession of bad, check that, horrible coaches has made him appear bad!
I credited him that much without the excuses.

So, my advice is similar to football!
Before you make statements like that, you need to know down and distance!
Statements like that are dependent on coaching, team, and the state of the player in terms of experience in the development process.

I calls um as I see um. (In the words of Vincent Laguardia Gambini, Maybe I need thicker glasses)
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Dismissing Frank Would Be Wrong

Post  Oracle on Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:11 pm

Good response!

We don't agree on some things, but that's why I respect you so much, you present a different perspective that we can all discuss.

Yes, I know all players respond that way and it's for self serving reasons. however there is a lot of truth to that, especially if the player is NOT fighting for a position.

IMO, it's simple physics that works in all sports. You can't run a marathon without running a marathon! You can't go 12 rounds if you haven't gone 12 rounds!

You body had to develop the conditioning to go 38 minutes in a game, and running isn't the same. I don't know if you've ever tried boxing!

I was in GREAT basketball shape, but try going just 3 rounds in a boxing match, and you'll get your arse kicked by running out of gas alone! Playing full court basketball is nothing to sneeze at either, it's brutal if you aren't in condition.

IMO, Drummond hasn't had the leash to do that, and untill they slowly increase him minutes, he won't get much further.

BTW, I 100% agree with you that Frank would be getting the short end of the stick if he gets fired. I would have loved to see him get a shot with the team that Joe should be assembling!

If Joe does his job right, next year will be awsome for us Piston fans! It's also going to be another black mark on this organization if we dump Frank like this and our record stinks!

Even so, IMO, it's in the best interest of the organization to move on... but ONLY if there are better coaches available to replace Frank! I don't subscribe to the theory that anyone is better than Frank, so choice is important!
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Increasing Drummonds Minutes

Post  Oracle on Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:16 pm

Lemon, you may want to read this, it's interesting because if covers some of the discussion we've been having.

[Only admins are allowed to see this link]

BTW: To everyone, check out the article on the side by Goodwill on Middleton!
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