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THERE IS HOPE

Post  deusXango on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:40 am

Phil1980boy wrote:"Without their starting back court."

I'm not saying this comment is incorrect. I'm not saying I disagree. I am saying why give the Pistons any credit at all? "Without their starting back court." I'm not feeling that comment! scratch


The Pistons played A solid game, case closed! Win or Lose, B.K.7, Drummonds and the Moose are developing. It's A WIN... WIN... Situation no matter what!

Stop looking for negatives. Give A lil credit to the boys. At-Least we healthy. That's what happens when you work hard over the summer.

Hey PhillipBoy, I agree, a win is a win, I don't care about other teams problems, but, we're losing more than we win (twice as many loses as wins), and I'm for looking for the silver lining in our present, overall state. Wouldn't you rather lose with our youth than by playing veterans who won't be (shouldn't be) a part of our future, and losing? The reason I ask is, did you notice how many fans were in attendance in Cleveland (made the Palace look like a graveyard), and how excited they were watching their young players play? You can expect rookies, 1st, 2nd year players to lose but, when you're playing seasoned veterans ahead of them, shouldn't you expect the vets to exceed the expectations of developing youth?

Phillip, tell me what does happen when you work hard over the summer like English, Middleton, and to a great extent, Kravtsov did? Hell, Kravtsov was involved in competative play! Maggette was always a physical specimen, and rehabbing from an injury is not the same as working on your game; where's the evidence he worked this summer? The money? Laimbeer ended up leaving Cleveland (by the trade route) because he was playing behind a big contract; when he arrived in Detroit, the rest is history. Who was he playing behind?

I see a lot of positives with this team, albeit, unexploited positives, and it's not neccessary for us to make a trade now (even though that's Joe's best means to acquire the talent upgrades; I have my doubts about his FA signings), this team can develop and compete at the same time but, we're going to need a far superior "puppet master" than we have now. If Knight is not being taught the PG position, and Monroe has hit a learning wall (which indicates to me, he's not being taught big man play), how is a "classroom" of seven hungry players going to develop? If we recieved the 1st pick in next summers lottery, what type of environment will he be stepping into? I'm gonna wait patiently for Sparma to pose these questions, so I can get some thoughtful responses (he's much more eloquent in stating facts than I am).
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8 Games And Counting

Post  WTF on Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:19 pm

That's hoiw many games thus far that Monroe has been dominated by the opposing centers. He been far to passive to get any All Star consideration this season. Last season he looked more like an All Star and I think we all thought he should have deserved an invite, but now he's been getting his ass handed to him every was imagineable.

Where is this Chris Webber comparision at, where are the consistent double double and ball-handling and passing skills? He's turning the ball over at the same if not a bigger pace than Knight, he has no energy and strength wise he's looks like Austin and Tay underneath. Too early to be tired

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Xango The Detroit Pistons belong in Downtown Detroit

Post  Phil1980boy on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:06 pm

All Really good questions my friend. And yes I notice. Cleveland Arena was buzzing!

In my opinion, the Detroit Pistons should be in Downtown Detroit. That's just how I feel.

The number 1 example would be the Detroit Red Wings. The Detroit Red Wings are one of the great franchises in sports. But If you put them down I-75 the palace would not be sold out every game like it is in the Joe.


I feel Mr I should have came out A little more money to get the Pistons deal done. And now when he talks about building that new arena It makes more sense. Red Wings/Tigers/Pistons combo packs.
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Your Insane

Post  WTF on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:33 pm

Sorry P-Boy but the Wings would consistently sale out the Palace, hockey and football fans are loyal followers so location isn't an issue. They sell standing room only tickets just for a regular season game. If the Pistons were downtown they would likely draw most of their sellouts just on interest of (hey I went to the new arena) and NBA fans aren't that loyal. In fact out of all the Detroit teams the Pistons are the least loyalest. Gore would still have to put a winner on the floor or he'll be looking at the same 5,000 folks that show up to games now.

The Palace use to sellout every game so why not now, it product not location.
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THIS IS HOCKEYTOWN!

Post  deusXango on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:52 pm

I agree that Mr. Illich would probably be handling matters differently, had he purchased the Pistons (Dumars would be gone; I'm sure Tom Wilson would have seen to that by now), but if we had Lil' Larry coaching this team....in the city.....UGH!!! This is hockeytown, make no mistake about it, and in order for the Pistons to get the respect that the Red Wings and Tigers get, it would have to be some major changes made, or we may as well stay at the Palace. If Tom Gores brings that band of clowns (Dumars, Frank and his staff) to Detroit, the building will be empty, trust me.

Mr. Illich spends money on the team, not window dressing and dog & pony shows, so I'm sorry he didn't get the team.

Since we lost respect for the traditional PG, and embraced a love for the "combo guard" the team has dropped to a level of mediocrity, and stabilized there. Why no one has noticed, I don't know. Our GM has hired clown coaches to accomadate the knuckleheaded play of his prized "combo guard" so when the team fails, it's the coaches fault, and oh, our franchise player haven't had a chance to develop because of the coaching changes. I can understand Kobe, or LeBron, or Melo having power over franchises but, Stuckey?! I'm not a hockey fan (don't understand the game) but, I'm glad this is hockeytown.....someone has a reason to cheer for the home team. End of ramble.
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The Palace use to sellout every game so why not now, it product not location.

Post  deusXango on Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:54 pm

Thanks Wise.
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GMoney

Post  lemonpen on Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:08 pm

WISEFAN wrote:That's hoiw many games thus far that Monroe has been dominated by the opposing centers. He been far to passive to get any All Star consideration this season. Last season he looked more like an All Star and I think we all thought he should have deserved an invite, but now he's been getting his ass handed to him every was imagineable.

Where is this Chris Webber comparision at, where are the consistent double double and ball-handling and passing skills? He's turning the ball over at the same if not a bigger pace than Knight, he has no energy and strength wise he's looks like Austin and Tay underneath. Too early to be tired


Greg ain't tired he is soft. He has been playing to avoid contact which is ok on the offensive end but sucks on D. Kelser hit the rebounding problem in the head without highlighting anyone in particular. "We are standing next to the opponent without putting a body on them". Rick Carlisle would say GM is playing without FORCE.
Gregory is beginning to remind me of Brad Daugherty. Brad began his career as a 7 foot finesse player who because of size and skill produced decent numbers but was widely considered somewhat soft when challenged. He toughened up after several years becomming a 20/10 5 time All Star.
G Money is gonna have to find it within himself to play with a greater level of physicallity, or continue having smaller guys snatch rebounds from his two handed grip.
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Good reason to get GMoney OUT of the...

Post  Oracle on Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:19 pm

lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:That's hoiw many games thus far that Monroe has been dominated by the opposing centers. He been far to passive to get any All Star consideration this season. Last season he looked more like an All Star and I think we all thought he should have deserved an invite, but now he's been getting his ass handed to him every was imagineable.

Where is this Chris Webber comparision at, where are the consistent double double and ball-handling and passing skills? He's turning the ball over at the same if not a bigger pace than Knight, he has no energy and strength wise he's looks like Austin and Tay underneath. Too early to be tired


Greg ain't tired he is soft. He has been playing to avoid contact which is ok on the offensive end but sucks on D. Kelser hit the rebounding problem in the head without highlighting anyone in particular. "We are standing next to the opponent without putting a body on them". Rick Carlisle would say GM is playing without FORCE.
Gregory is beginning to remind me of Brad Daugherty. Brad began his career as a 7 foot finesse player who because of size and skill produced decent numbers but was widely considered somewhat soft when challenged. He toughened up after several years becomming a 20/10 5 time All Star.
G Money is gonna have to find it within himself to play with a greater level of physicallity, or continue having smaller guys snatch rebounds from his two handed grip.

Center Business!!! That's not his position!

Let Drummond kick ass down low, he has the size and strength, and hell, he likes it!

Monroe is a PF, and he can handle those guys on every level except speed, and he should make up for that by playing smart(and letting Drummond erase his mistakes)!
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:55 am

WISEFAN wrote:Sorry P-Boy but the Wings would consistently sale out the Palace, hockey and football fans are loyal followers so location isn't an issue. They sell standing room only tickets just for a regular season game. If the Pistons were downtown they would likely draw most of their sellouts just on interest of (hey I went to the new arena) and NBA fans aren't that loyal. In fact out of all the Detroit teams the Pistons are the least loyalest. Gore would still have to put a winner on the floor or he'll be looking at the same 5,000 folks that show up to games now.

The Palace use to sellout every game so why not now, it product not location.
Being a Detroit product I want very much to disagree with this... but it's the truth... We used to have 1000 lunatics invade Cobo Arena during the worst years... Crazy Gus was the best entertainment we had besides Dobber & Bing (when the Detroit population was 2 Mil strong)... During the playoff year (played the Bulls in '74) the team would draw around 10,000 most nights... Like Yogi Berra once said, "If people don’t want to come to the ballpark, you can’t stop them."...still would luv to see some games played in the city (ya hear this Gores!)... unfortunately winning does indeed hold the trump card. fro pick
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Monroe

Post  Sparma on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:01 am

Outstanding as he is in some respects, he's a tweener. He's at his best operating in the low post with an array of moves. He has a secondary strength as a passer which he can deploy as a center, but also as a PF. Defensively, he's repeatedly getting burned by opposing centers, particularly on offensive boards. He'd be better off moving to PF in that regard. BUT, part of the reason he get torched is his slow footwork on D. That problem would be aggrevated going up against quicker PFs and needing to defend on the perimeter more often. And the bodying up that he does do on D is best done close to the basket, where you most often encounter centers. If he developed a reliable midrange jumper, his best spot would likely be PF.

There's no easy answer in how best to use Monroe, given his strengths and weaknesses. That's a shame, because we need to give Drummond major minutes at Center real soon, as we've already started to.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:05 am

Oracle wrote:
lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:That's hoiw many games thus far that Monroe has been dominated by the opposing centers. He been far to passive to get any All Star consideration this season. Last season he looked more like an All Star and I think we all thought he should have deserved an invite, but now he's been getting his ass handed to him every was imagineable.

Where is this Chris Webber comparision at, where are the consistent double double and ball-handling and passing skills? He's turning the ball over at the same if not a bigger pace than Knight, he has no energy and strength wise he's looks like Austin and Tay underneath. Too early to be tired


Greg ain't tired he is soft. He has been playing to avoid contact which is ok on the offensive end but sucks on D. Kelser hit the rebounding problem in the head without highlighting anyone in particular. "We are standing next to the opponent without putting a body on them". Rick Carlisle would say GM is playing without FORCE.
Gregory is beginning to remind me of Brad Daugherty. Brad began his career as a 7 foot finesse player who because of size and skill produced decent numbers but was widely considered somewhat soft when challenged. He toughened up after several years becomming a 20/10 5 time All Star.
G Money is gonna have to find it within himself to play with a greater level of physicallity, or continue having smaller guys snatch rebounds from his two handed grip.

Center Business!!! That's not his position!

Let Drummond kick ass down low, he has the size and strength, and hell, he likes it!

Monroe is a PF, and he can handle those guys on every level except speed, and he should make up for that by playing smart(and letting Drummond erase his mistakes)!

I am not sure you are correct Oracle. Power forwards have more quickness than centers. Monroe is not considered a quick player. What is currently distressing regarding the horrible defensive play of Monroe and Charlie V is the fact that both players make the same mistakes on defense. It seems true that these two players try real hard to avoid contact. How pitiful is that? How can the coach tolerate watching those two players when he is supposed to be a defense first coach. Charlie and Moose use the ploy of acting like they are trying to help Piston guards by extending to the free throw line and beyond. I watched both of those players go out too far and then turn their heads to watch the action with cleveland big men dominating the boards while playing against one Detroit big man. If you decide to go out when your man is going to set a screen to set up a pick and roll play, you have to have the desire to get back quick or there is free sailing for the opposition. Monroe likes to switch acting like he is playing an opposing guard and lets guys like Knight try to battle with the guy he should be guarding. Tell me Frank isn't seeing this happen. Frank makes no adjustment other than taking those two players out of the game occasionally. The scary thing is the fact that this is what Monroe did two seasons ago, last season and he is even less excited to do his job on defense then at any time in his career. He appears to have very little energy. Perhaps he is ill or just is a guy who cannot handle so many games packed so close together. Everyone is so excited about Monroe-Drummond combination for the future. Everyone is wondering when Drummond will have it all down and become a real force in the league. He is on his way and seems to always make an impact now. Monroe is going in the other direction. Others have pointed out problems with his decision making on offense. The coach needs to stop trying to run the offense though Monroe for awhile. Maybe Monroe is feeling too much pressure especially during crunch time. Take the pressure off him and ease him back into this role when he shows he can play defense. I keep saying the same thing but it appears that coach Frank just doesn't get it or he has no options at the moment. As far as I am concerned, the Piston team has nothing to lose by trying The Russian and giving him some of Monroe and Maxiell's minutes. Maybe Monroe can only handle limited minutes. As for Charlie V, it is good to see him hit some shots but how can the head coach tolerate Charlie's lack of guts on defense. It is very clear that Charlie is out of position because he is trying to avoid pain or contact with other players his size. There must be some coach out there who can light a fire under the asses of both Monroe and Charlie V. Anyone can play defense. Neither have any valid excuse for standing at the free throw line and just watching their teammates try to do their job under the basket. Do the other players call those two cowards? As many times as guys like Knight are getting knocked around, it must make Brandon real mad to see how cowardly his teammates become at times. One comment on Stuckey in this last game. At times he looked real sharp. But during a bad spell when Cleveland made a big run while Knight was on the bench, I watching Stuckey not even try to defend his man two possessions in a row. His assigned player drove right by Stuckey. Stuckey didn't get down low or lift his arms. He just took a break and let his player score easily. Stuckey turns it on and off all the time. He seldom plays hard like Knight. Something needs to be done to those players who fake it. What does this coaching staff stand for? Frank says he has to play the best players. Are the other guys that bad? Maybe this is true. On the bright side, Brandon Knight is so tough. He never gives up. He plays so fast and creates real excitment for the fans. Great game Brandon! Right now, Singler is playing through two injuries. He still goes real hard on defense everytime down the floor. We can see him sprint back on defense and show that he is not afraid of contact unlike Monroe and Charlie V. The Russian sure doesn't play soft like Monroe and Charlie so I am very surprised that Frank hasn't allowed him to play even a minute. This year should be all about becoming a tough minded team. Instead, coach Frank has not done his job as head coach to weed out or punish the cowards on this team. The cowards have been identified by many Piston fans. If the coach allows this to go on then it is time for our fearless leader, Joe Dumars to do something bold. I swear that if a GM just would bring in hard nosed players with limited ability, they would win more games and bring in more fans to the Palace. Soft players are a big turn off. Nobody wants to leave their warm home to see players give a half assed cowardly effort.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:20 am

Sparma wrote:Outstanding as he is in some respects, he's a tweener. He's at his best operating in the low post with an array of moves. He has a secondary strength as a passer which he can deploy as a center, but also as a PF. Defensively, he's repeatedly getting burned by opposing centers, particularly on offensive boards. He'd be better off moving to PF in that regard. BUT, part of the reason he get torched is his slow footwork on D. That problem would be aggrevated going up against quicker PFs and needing to defend on the perimeter more often. And the bodying up that he does do on D is best done close to the basket, where you most often encounter centers. If he developed a reliable midrange jumper, his best spot would likely be PF.

There's no easy answer in how best to use Monroe, given his strengths and weaknesses. That's a shame, because we need to give Drummond major minutes at Center real soon, as we've already started to.

Looks like we were thinking almost the same thing at the same time Sparma. Your comments were more professional and less emotionally driven. I hate calling any Piston player a coward. But as a player, some of us would confront guys on our team we suspected of leaning that way. I am sure that if players like Isiah Thomas had to play with either Monroe or Charlie V, changes would happen real fast or there would be hell to pay. I know that Sean Elliot couldn't wait until he received a one way ticket out of Detroit. Thomas especially made life hell for him. This team still is trying to find an identity. Once they do, the players should work things out and will not tolerate management bringing in soft players.

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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:36 am

Sparma wrote:Outstanding as he is in some respects, he's a tweener. He's at his best operating in the low post with an array of moves. He has a secondary strength as a passer which he can deploy as a center, but also as a PF. Defensively, he's repeatedly getting burned by opposing centers, particularly on offensive boards. He'd be better off moving to PF in that regard. BUT, part of the reason he get torched is his slow footwork on D. That problem would be aggrevated going up against quicker PFs and needing to defend on the perimeter more often. And the bodying up that he does do on D is best done close to the basket, where you most often encounter centers. If he developed a reliable midrange jumper, his best spot would likely be PF.

There's no easy answer in how best to use Monroe, given his strengths and weaknesses. That's a shame, because we need to give Drummond major minutes at Center real soon, as we've already started to.
IMO G.M. will have a similar career to Boozer... nice numbers on "O"... regrettable on "D".
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RE

Post  Phil1980boy on Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:13 am

"The Palace use to sellout every game so why not now, it product not location."

Everybody has A sellout when they winning. So let's not pump that up too much. I mean, I'm not taking anything away for those great years. I'm not! But the Pistons still need the support of the fans even in rough times.


I believe that support would be better in downtown Detroit. But mind you, I'm A homer all day long!
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Sparma & Merc

Post  Oracle on Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:44 am

merc wrote:
Sparma wrote:Outstanding as he is in some respects, he's a tweener. He's at his best operating in the low post with an array of moves. He has a secondary strength as a passer which he can deploy as a center, but also as a PF. Defensively, he's repeatedly getting burned by opposing centers, particularly on offensive boards. He'd be better off moving to PF in that regard. BUT, part of the reason he get torched is his slow footwork on D. That problem would be aggrevated going up against quicker PFs and needing to defend on the perimeter more often. And the bodying up that he does do on D is best done close to the basket, where you most often encounter centers. If he developed a reliable midrange jumper, his best spot would likely be PF.

There's no easy answer in how best to use Monroe, given his strengths and weaknesses. That's a shame, because we need to give Drummond major minutes at Center real soon, as we've already started to.

IMO G.M. will have a similar career to Boozer... nice numbers on "O"... regrettable on "D".

@Merc - Monroe, or G(Used to be)Money doesn't appear to be on a track to be as potent a shooter as Boozer, but he has a good and developing low post game.

@Sparma - Good prognosis doctor, and I agree with your analysis of the state of things. However, if you have to lead this team, saying there are no easy answers won't get the job done.

Here are the facts, even if Frank is either too slow to implement them, or too dumb.

We have two(2) Centers, we don't need another one!

We need to install Drummond at the 5 as soon as he's ready, and spell him with the russian, and put monroe at PF whether anybody likes it or not. If he can't play PF, then he's never going to make it in the NBA, and he's a poor fit for this team!

Don is correct that he will have some learning to defend quicker 4's, but I believe he's smart enough to figure that out, and really, how much worse could it be than watching centers use and abuse him nightly?

The league is moving back to big centers, and there's no place for tweeners in that game except in situational roles.
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Cheerio's Cheer Girl

Post  WTF on Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:04 am

Phil1980boy wrote:"The Palace use to sellout every game so why not now, it product not location."

Everybody has A sellout when they winning. So let's not pump that up too much. I mean, I'm not taking anything away for those great years. I'm not! But the Pistons still need the support of the fans even in rough times.


I believe that support would be better in downtown Detroit. But mind you, I'm A homer all day long!

Really the 4-9 Lions will sellout their last two home games if they aren't sold out already, and the Wings sold out in their lean years as well. These clubs have Die Hard Fans they're not Homer's Fans The Pistons have some Die Hard Fans also but they're a little diffenrent because they're small in numbers and they won't so up to games and they're NBA Purist. They don't mind the losing but how they lose that keeps them from the Palace.

If the Pistons had a great coach, started Drummond and play a better brand of basketball the arena attendance would increase significantly.

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Re: FORUM

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