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Not a Good Comparison

Post  Murph on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:46 am

Sparma...I would equate Monroe more closely with a Justin Verlander than an Andrew Miller.

Look...Dumars was incredibly lucky to be able to draft Monroe and Drummond and to a lesser extent Knight and Singler for that matter. Those draft picks will probably salvage Joe's career in Detroit. Trading any of them would not be a smart move.

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Trades

Post  Sparma on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:18 pm

Part of my point is that in retrospect it's clear what should have been done. At the time, I felt it was a very risky trade, for the reasons given. I'm not pushing to trade the young guys, by any means. The trade concerning Monroe which I described (for Alridge) is one that I said I'd turn down, like Langlois. The comparison is not so much the pretty well established Monroe with a non tested supertalent like Miller, but more Drummond with Maybin (and Drummond's already shown more than Maybin had). And fresh rookie Monroe would not have warranted comparison with the transcendent talent of Verlander (#2 pick?). I've ventured an analogy, which should not be taken as an identity statement. Even qua analogy it's not perfect, I know. A much closer analogy would result from studying NBA picks at 7-9 through the years. Many of those guys failed or became mediocre, while some hit big.

My general contention is simply that you always need to consider whether there's an advantage to be gained (factoring in the importance of retaining stability). Certain players are too much at the core of community identity to be traded (Jordan), but then even Kaline came real close to being traded as I remember. From a competitive point of view, I want my GM to be considering all favorable possibilities. Part of making a calculus of probabilities involves consideration the career records of hotshot prospects. And in order to make the comparison direct, the prospects of a third year near-All Star center would need to be compared with other third year near-All Star big men who are great teammates and exemplary citizens. When that's done with Monroe, it becomes apparent that the chances of a steal of a trade are minimal.

Beyond that, Murph, you and I evidently have a (minor) point of disagreement concerning Monroe. Yes, he can play high post and he should if he's in there with Drummond. I'm less sanguine than you seem to be about the possibility of a drop from optimal productivity because of the lack of a reliable mid-range shot. Also, because of that, I'm not so sure Monroe's keen on such a shift.
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Trade Examples

Post  deusXango on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:21 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Hey DX, if the Timberwolves called today and said Monroe for Love would you do it? If Boston called today and said Rondo for Stuckey, Knight and Maxiell would you do it? If Krastsov, Middleton and English could land us Cousins today would you do it?

In an approach to win now you would likely jump all over these opportunities. I don't think we would need to see what we might have down the road with all the youth. The only one pleyer I think that wait and see would apply to is Drummond.

Damn Wise, you really know how to twist an arm. If I was presented with any of those trade proposals, I'd give an emphatic, HELL YES!!!!

Question for you...if we had Monroe, Drummond, and Cousins, who would sit, and who would start, long range?
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HE STUCK IN HIS THUMB, AND PULLED OUT A PLUM

Post  deusXango on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:44 pm

Murph wrote:Sparma...I would equate Monroe more closely with a Justin Verlander than an Andrew Miller.

Look...Dumars was incredibly lucky to be able to draft Monroe and Drummond and to a lesser extent Knight and Singler for that matter. Those draft picks will probably salvage Joe's career in Detroit. Trading any of them would not be a smart move.

Murph, I'm not ashamed to give credit where credit is due, and your very realistic view of our good fortune, in the last three drafts, should not be minimized by trading any of those players before they have a chance to mature, is the mark of a deep thinker. In the same vein of good luck, I'd include Middleton in that number; because Lil' Larry chooses not to play him doesn't mean Joe made a mistake in drafting him. English can play, flat out!!! 7 footers don't grow on trees, and again we've got a promising player who's the victum of DNP-CD. I don't believe we can't play .500 ball because of our youth...I believe our youth represent a .500 club!
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If Dreams Came True

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:57 pm

deusXango wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:Hey DX, if the Timberwolves called today and said Monroe for Love would you do it? If Boston called today and said Rondo for Stuckey, Knight and Maxiell would you do it? If Krastsov, Middleton and English could land us Cousins today would you do it?

In an approach to win now you would likely jump all over these opportunities. I don't think we would need to see what we might have down the road with all the youth. The only one pleyer I think that wait and see would apply to is Drummond.

Damn Wise, you really know how to twist an arm. If I was presented with any of those trade proposals, I'd give an emphatic, HELL YES!!!!

Question for you...if we had Monroe, Drummond, and Cousins, who would sit, and who would start, long range?

DX I would have to see how things would fit first before I could make that call. Because I could see where I could bring any of the three off the bench
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Re: FORUM

Post  Sebastian on Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:00 pm

WISEFAN wrote:I don't think any player on this team is Untouchable including our most recent three lottery selections. But the last two players on this team I would bewilling to trade away would be Drummond and Singler

The problem here is that only Joe and a Pistons fan can over value these players because we are so eager to turn their potential into some form stardom. We seem to think this players will or are in someform on par with the likes of Derrick Rose, Love, Wade, just to name a few. Monroe has played like a Big Pussy the past 5 or 6 games and he likely has the most value of any player on the roster right now, and we couldn't get back what we paid for him in a trade.

Monroe is like a Top of the line Caddy that immediately starting depreciating right after we drove him out the lot (his rookie season.) Sadly I might over value some of our players as well and think I should be getting Kevin Love back in return, but it simply wouldn't happen.

Watching Kaman and Lee whip on his ass in recent games was sickening.

Wise, I'm curious. Would you be willing to trade Singler for Scott Machado. Machado is the true PG that WE could add to OUR roster? The kid has a trade restriction that doesn't allow him to be traded before Dec. 15.

The Rockets may not need Singler, but that has to be a trade that every Piston would seriously consider.
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Here's a thought

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:46 pm

WISEFAN wrote:I don't think any player on this team is Untouchable including our most recent three lottery selections. But the last two players on this team I would bewilling to trade away would be Drummond and Singler

The problem here is that only Joe and a Pistons fan can over value these players because we are so eager to turn their potential into some form stardom. We seem to think this players will or are in someform on par with the likes of Derrick Rose, Love, Wade, just to name a few. Monroe has played like a Big Pussy the past 5 or 6 games and he likely has the most value of any player on the roster right now, and we couldn't get back what we paid for him in a trade.

Monroe is like a Top of the line Caddy that immediately starting depreciating right after we drove him out the lot (his rookie season.) Sadly I might over value some of our players as well and think I should be getting Kevin Love back in return, but it simply wouldn't happen.

Watching Kaman and Lee whip on his ass in recent games was sickening.

The fact is that no player anywhere is "Untouchable", that's not the question.

When we say a player is untouchable, we're really talking about the probabilities, and the probability of trading Drummond is so low as not to be considered.
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Murph has it right!

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:55 pm

Murph wrote:IMO, the beauty of having Monroe and Drummond together is that they compliment each other nicely. Monroe is offensively minded, Dummond is defensive minded. Monroe is highly skilled in the paint, Drummond is highly athletic. Monroe can play the high post, Drummond the low post.

IMO, Monroe and Dummond are both untouchable. In fact, I wouldn't trade any of our younger players. I would only trade the vets on expiring contracts.


While I feel that Drummond is the key, Monroe isn't far behind. What he lacks athletically, he more than makes up for with a balanced, and solid overall game!

Once Monroe plays more with Drummond, his poorer defense will get hidden as Drummond erases most of his mistakes.

After all, that's why you have help defenders, and Drummond is a help defender on steroids!

Lastly, I can't wait until these dudes grow up, they're going to be one hell of a power tandem. Don't count out Drummonds offense, it's going to get a lot better!


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Trades

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:59 pm

Sparma wrote:Oracle: Since you basically proved that your trade idea was so bad that neither side would have any interest in it, my advice is don't hold your breath waiting for the next GM Job offer, LOL!

It wasn't a prediction, Oracle, just a thought experiment about a possible trade that I would accept for the guy I said I LEAST want to trade. But you've got it by the wrong end about trades that both sides are reluctant to do not happening; those are sometimes the most likely to occur because both teams know they're not just ripping off the other. Of course, if it's straightforward both teams will benefit (dealing from mutual overabundance), those are the easiest trades to pull off. But the vast majority of trades proposed by Detroit fans are ones of clear benefit to the Pistons which the other team never would accept.

As far as the cautionary tale: I was using that to illustrate the vast range of possibilities for Drummond (far wider than for Monroe). As I mentioned, he could soon be the best offensive rebounder in the league. That's rarified territory. Risking Piston sacrilege, I think he's able to get more of the contested high rebounds and touches than any Piston I've seen (and that includes two of the greatest rebounders ever). That's not to equate him with Rodman and Wallace as an overall rebounder (first, there'd need to be a comparable season and career level of accomplishment). But for going after one super tough disputed high ball, he's the best I've seen.

The cautionary tale combines with incredible potential. Its that combination that makes it unlikely you'd get equal value for him now, making him the Piston I'd least want to trade. But anyone can be traded (including Wilt, Jabbar, Kobe, and Gasol).


I'm still not getting you. As I posted below, you're missing the point when you take untradable as an absolute, it's a probability.

Still, if you're trying to build a great team, and you have a potentially world class front court, the fact that trading either of them enters your mind, bothers me.
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WHAT??!!

Post  deusXango on Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:42 pm

Sebastian wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:I don't think any player on this team is Untouchable including our most recent three lottery selections. But the last two players on this team I would bewilling to trade away would be Drummond and Singler

The problem here is that only Joe and a Pistons fan can over value these players because we are so eager to turn their potential into some form stardom. We seem to think this players will or are in someform on par with the likes of Derrick Rose, Love, Wade, just to name a few. Monroe has played like a Big Pussy the past 5 or 6 games and he likely has the most value of any player on the roster right now, and we couldn't get back what we paid for him in a trade.

Monroe is like a Top of the line Caddy that immediately starting depreciating right after we drove him out the lot (his rookie season.) Sadly I might over value some of our players as well and think I should be getting Kevin Love back in return, but it simply wouldn't happen.

Watching Kaman and Lee whip on his ass in recent games was sickening.

Wise, I'm curious. Would you be willing to trade Singler for Scott Machado. Machado is the true PG that WE could add to OUR roster? The kid has a trade restriction that doesn't allow him to be traded before Dec. 15.

The Rockets may not need Singler, but that has to be a trade that every Piston would seriously consider.

Sebastian, if the Rockets don't need Singler, why are you suggesting we trade him for anyone, let alone a player that's currently on their D-league squad? I'd love Scott Machado but, I'm thinking Will Bynums' expiring contract should do that deal, but I'm hanging up the phone the minute they mention Singler; they'll call back.
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Untradable

Post  Sparma on Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:23 pm

means untradable; if it's extremely unlikely that it's a good idea to trade someone, then that should be said. We can debate semantics, but I don't see much point. My very point concerns probability, which you're now featuring too.

A young Gary Templeton looked like he had a shot at becoming the greatest, or one of the very greatest, shortstops ever. "Untradable" in your sense. It turned out to be a great trade for the Cardinals to deal him for a light hitting (at that time) defensive shortstop. Never say never, and if you're not saying never than don't use words which are rough synonyms for never.

Sounds like there's no real disagreement, as there shouldn't be.

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Trades

Post  deusXango on Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:31 pm

Speaking of trade scenerios, for those that remember laughing at me (during the Royce White era), when I suggested we go after James Harden and Josh Smith, and had all type of ridiculous demeaning remarks for both, well Harden is playing his way to being one of the top players in the league (Houston has kicked our ass convincingly twice with him), and now actively recruiting other top players to come play with him; guess who's the top name to come up in discussions? Yep. Josh Smith!

There's a growing support for Monroe and Drummond being the foundation pieces for this franchise, and if this is true, wouldn't it make all type of sense to trade for Josh Smith to complete our frontline? You take Kravtsov and Singler out of the trade equation, and we're solidly packed up front. Wish we had a major talent, who could recruit major talent for us, and our management would listen to, and accomadate.
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Trades

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:57 pm

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:Oracle: Since you basically proved that your trade idea was so bad that neither side would have any interest in it, my advice is don't hold your breath waiting for the next GM Job offer, LOL!

It wasn't a prediction, Oracle, just a thought experiment about a possible trade that I would accept for the guy I said I LEAST want to trade. But you've got it by the wrong end about trades that both sides are reluctant to do not happening; those are sometimes the most likely to occur because both teams know they're not just ripping off the other. Of course, if it's straightforward both teams will benefit (dealing from mutual overabundance), those are the easiest trades to pull off. But the vast majority of trades proposed by Detroit fans are ones of clear benefit to the Pistons which the other team never would accept.

As far as the cautionary tale: I was using that to illustrate the vast range of possibilities for Drummond (far wider than for Monroe). As I mentioned, he could soon be the best offensive rebounder in the league. That's rarified territory. Risking Piston sacrilege, I think he's able to get more of the contested high rebounds and touches than any Piston I've seen (and that includes two of the greatest rebounders ever). That's not to equate him with Rodman and Wallace as an overall rebounder (first, there'd need to be a comparable season and career level of accomplishment). But for going after one super tough disputed high ball, he's the best I've seen.

The cautionary tale combines with incredible potential. Its that combination that makes it unlikely you'd get equal value for him now, making him the Piston I'd least want to trade. But anyone can be traded (including Wilt, Jabbar, Kobe, and Gasol).


I'm still not getting you. As I posted below, you're missing the point when you take untradable as an absolute, it's a probability.

Still, if you're trying to build a great team, and you have a potentially world class front court, the fact that trading either of them enters your mind, bothers me.

It's always that word potential and some will see a world class front court and some might think we can do better than what we currently have. If we can get better and be put in a position to contend for a titles as of today and for the next 3 or 4 years then everyone of them can be had. The only reason why they won't be traded is that scenario won't present itself.



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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:22 pm

Sparma wrote:means untradable; if it's extremely unlikely that it's a good idea to trade someone, then that should be said. We can debate semantics, but I don't see much point. My very point concerns probability, which you're now featuring too.

A young Gary Templeton looked like he had a shot at becoming the greatest, or one of the very greatest, shortstops ever. "Untradable" in your sense. It turned out to be a great trade for the Cardinals to deal him for a light hitting (at that time) defensive shortstop. Never say never, and if you're not saying never than don't use words which are rough synonyms for never.

Sounds like there's no real disagreement, as there shouldn't be.


Point taken! I agree!
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Pistons

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:24 pm

Are, as usual playing great... in the first half(so far).

I expect them to be ahead by halftime, so the question will be how they play the 2nd half!
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The 2nd Unit

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:25 pm

Is kicking some major Bull Butt!!!
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There it is

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:38 pm

The patented Larry Frank "I love to give up big runs" debacle!

Bulls close on a 14-2 run to get withing 5 at the half Sad
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End of the 3rd...

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:21 pm

Bulls up by 4, the collapse may be beginning!
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Stick a fork in them, they're

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:55 pm

DONE!!!
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Watching this game .....now.. Frank lost this game ..

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:56 pm

Noah destroying us .. single-handedly.. CV was a BIG shot in the arm for the team but Frank stays too long with him .. and our defense implodes ...That and the rebounding mastery ... means this:............ Monroe AND Drummond TOGETHER have to play to deal with the rebounding issues . period .. I think playing all the physical or quick centers like Noah HAS worn out Monroe .. Frank looks like he is experimenting ala Kuester and Curry and somehow at the same time stays too long with player match ups that are not working .. Knight plays more like SG than a PG .. IF Frank cant run the offense through Knight as PG.. he might as well become the team's SG.. Would like to see more play sets where players without the ball are moving and cutting where they ARE TO RECEIVE the pass to shoot and score .. .. Seems like Frank has FAR TOO OFTEN called on BOTH Stuckey and Knight going solo with clear outs and an occassional pick and slash .. Charlie V had a real disappointed look on his face at the end of the game .. The man cares ... CV had a great game .. Frank needed to take him out sooner though because our defense got all messed up ..CV a part of that .. not the only reason .. Right now there is no PG on the team because of the way Frank's offensive system works .. .. You cant pass to players who are not moving to positions where they can score ..


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Grizz

Post  Oracle on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:00 pm

I wouldn't put all of that on CV, Monroe would lose rebounds to him just because he could always out jump him and tip it.

I think Frank just can't figure out to handle runs, they happen way too often, and they happen to us at a time where the other team gets maximum confidence.

However, in the final analysis, IMO, our inexperience at guard is really the biggest problem. BK7 makes a LOT of mental mistakes.

But I don't mind, soon these kids will walk on the floor as MEN, and when that happens, I pity the fool that's playing them.

I LOVE the core of this team!!!
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Not putting it all on CV ..

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:05 pm

Oracle wrote:I wouldn't put all of that on CV, Monroe would lose rebounds to him just because he could always out jump him and tip it.

I think Frank just can't figure out to handle runs, they happen way too often, and they happen to us at a time where the other team gets maximum confidence.

However, in the final analysis, IMO, our inexperience at guard is really the biggest problem. BK7 makes a LOT of mental mistakes.

But I don't mind, soon these kids will walk on the floor as MEN, and when that happens, I pity the fool that's playing them.

I LOVE the core of this team!!!

Oracle ..nope . you cannot put it all on CV .. and I dont ... I think you are overstating it as BK7 being the problem ... Saw the game ... Frank's system is clear out for the PG and let him score by himself .. I am more worried about Frank than before .. He is not the right coach for this team ... Monroe and Drummond together .. at least for teams with big front lines with the Bulls .. Also .. as we both have point out .. Frank makes adjustments TOO LATE .. This was not a good loss .. The system is the problem .. at this point . and that is on Frank ..
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Oh Brother

Post  WTF on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:10 pm

Grizz2 wrote:
Oracle wrote:I wouldn't put all of that on CV, Monroe would lose rebounds to him just because he could always out jump him and tip it.

I think Frank just can't figure out to handle runs, they happen way too often, and they happen to us at a time where the other team gets maximum confidence.

However, in the final analysis, IMO, our inexperience at guard is really the biggest problem. BK7 makes a LOT of mental mistakes.

But I don't mind, soon these kids will walk on the floor as MEN, and when that happens, I pity the fool that's playing them.

I LOVE the core of this team!!!

Oracle ..nope . you cannot put it all on CV .. and I dont ... I think you are overstating it as BK7 being the problem ... Saw the game ... Frank's system is clear out for the PG and let him score by himself .. I am more worried about Frank than before .. He is not the right coach for this team ... Monroe and Drummond together .. at least for teams with big front lines with the Bulls .. Also .. as we both have point out .. Frank makes adjustments TOO LATE .. This was not a good loss .. The system is the problem .. at this point . and that is on Frank ..

CV loses another game
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Chicago Loss

Post  Sparma on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:36 pm

I'm ready to act on the suggestion made of trading the entire team. Chicago played the right way, continuing to work hard after falling back by 17, tightening their defense, working well together on offense. Noah was an absolute beast and Hinrich picked up his game after being torched by Knight in the first quarter. Boozer and Deng played tough and smart.

As to Detroit, terrific start, just about up to halftime. Stuckey played great and Knight shot beautifully early. Charlie V. not only shot from distance but made nice move to the inside. Solid game by Prince. Ineffectual play by Singler -- in one stretch his play led to four of five Bull stops, included by way of a block and an intercepted pass. I thought Frank was going to pull him.

Little things that encouraged me: trapped on the side by two guys, Knight spotted Maxiell to his side for a nice assist; Stuckey found a cutting Drummond three times for an assist, maybe a taste of things ahead.

Discouraging stuff: the Pistons again did a crummy job of boxing out, mainly on Noah. Monroe needs to be both stronger and quicker or teams are going to continue to torture us with offensive rebounds.

The main offensive problem was that it was too much one man play, again. Even in the first half run, success came more more hot starts by BK, Stuck, and CV than from team play. In the second half, the isolation play became a serious problem against a stiffening Chicago defense, to the point that Kelser freely criticized.

btw, it occurred to me that Noah might provide a fairly good model of what we can project for Drummond. Early, I felt that might be setting the ceiling a bit low. By the end of the game -- once Noah had put up numbers that would have made Wilt proud -- it seemed like an optimistic projection. Part of the similarity that I see is that both are surprisingly good passers.

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Wise.. wake up..

Post  Grizz2 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:51 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
Grizz2 wrote:
Oracle wrote:I wouldn't put all of that on CV, Monroe would lose rebounds to him just because he could always out jump him and tip it.

I think Frank just can't figure out to handle runs, they happen way too often, and they happen to us at a time where the other team gets maximum confidence.

However, in the final analysis, IMO, our inexperience at guard is really the biggest problem. BK7 makes a LOT of mental mistakes.

But I don't mind, soon these kids will walk on the floor as MEN, and when that happens, I pity the fool that's playing them.

I LOVE the core of this team!!!

Oracle ..nope . you cannot put it all on CV .. and I dont ... I think you are overstating it as BK7 being the problem ... Saw the game ... Frank's system is clear out for the PG and let him score by himself .. I am more worried about Frank than before .. He is not the right coach for this team ... Monroe and Drummond together .. at least for teams with big front lines with the Bulls .. Also .. as we both have point out .. Frank makes adjustments TOO LATE .. This was not a good loss .. The system is the problem .. at this point . and that is on Frank ..

CV loses another game

I didnt put it all on CV .. I SAID THIS ... QUOTE:Charlie V had a real disappointed look on his face at the end of the game .. The man cares ... CV had a great game .. Frank needed to take him out sooner though because our defense got all messed up ..CV a part of that .. not the only reason .. UNQUOTE....

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