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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Apologies

Post  Sparma Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:56 pm

I ordinarily try to be evenhanded and irenic, but my comment beginning "The move of..." is inflammatory. I'd like to make things better, not worse, and that comment can't help that. I do stand by not trying to silence anyone. In fact, I'm trying to further the conversation in what has become an oddly intimate setting when exchanging views with strangers. Probably best for me to take a step back, then to see where we are when the dust settles. Best wishes to all.

Don: "WTF maybe there are some posters who are employed by Mr. Gores and his incompetent ownership group and want your voice silenced."  I'm not trying to silence anyone's voice.  The move of being relentlessly critical and then claiming victimization when there's some pushback, aided by cartoonish depictions of one's interlocutors as well as conspiracy theories, has become all too familiar in current public discourse.  Let's not go there on a fan forum where we're brought together by the love of a team.  We can do better, and routinely have.

Glad to hear that you like the Sidney Lowe appointment, Wise.  I do too.


Last edited by Sparma on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:43 pm

WTF wrote:No I need to move on not because I'm upset by anyone's comments but because the team doesn't meet my expectation and I'm going to voice my feelings on it period,   I've made it clear that all praise needs to be earned and I'm finding it real hard to praise these players for tiny accomplishments,  I've stated I don't care what Casey did in Toronto he's in Detroit now and he needs to prove himself here before I sing a single note of praise.

I've made it clear that I'm going to scrutinize every single detail top to bottom and bottom to top rather this team win a game or loses a game.  I'm not here to cheer for second place,  or cheer AD baby steps when he's already 2 year behind where he should be,  I don't have the patience for SJ to decide he needs to work on his shot,  I'm not putting a lick of faith in RJ being injury free or becoming smarter if he isn't injured.  Quietly BG contracts makes my stomach turn so I'm going to piss and moan when he doesn't show up big.   

I'm not going to sit quietly after a loss with a better luck next time attitude pointing out tiny positives.  You only do this when a team lays it on the line blood sweat and tears, did everything right only to come up short.  Until these players take losing seriously and start getting angry about it then it's hard to respect them.

If I'm Negative that's because I Positively want to win.  It's not going to change so it's best I find a forum that pissed off and upset as I am.

WTF maybe there are some posters who are employed by Mr. Gores and his incompetent ownership group and want your voice silenced. Things have not gone well for the Detroit Pistons since the day Chauncy Billups was traded which destroyed what was left of a real basketball team. That was a long time ago. Thousands of true blue Piston followers decided several years ago to stop punishing themselves and do not even read anything about the Pistons in the Newspapers. One friend of mine told me he attended a game two years ago and watched Andre Drummond do his pre game dance inside a circle. He couldn't believe any player would be dancing after his team got blown out two days before where the team was down by over 22 points after the first quarter. In that game, the same thing happened. The Pistons gave up easy layups because there was no Ben Wallace protecting the paint or any other player who really gave a crap. Anyone who is not skeptical of everything this ownership does should have their heads examined. Piston fans get to see Andre Drummond, Reggie Jackson, Blake Griffin, Jon Leuer and Langston Galloway this coming season. That should be the starting 5 based on salary. the rest of the chumps have no power or say in what goes on. Money talks and the coach always listens to the owner.

WTF wants to live for the moment when the Pistons have a chance for a title. Some of us have witnessed that actually happen. We all knew it wouldn't happen after watching Greg Monroe lumber back on defense. And most of us know that Reggie Jackson and his sidekick Andre Drummond have been no improvement from the countless players that the owners group has marched out to the hardwood each losing season we are suffered through. Many fans like me can accept watching a losing team if that team has some young talent. No small market team can win in today's game without great talent and work ethic. Small market teams have to lose big for several years and get lucky with top 3 picks to have any chance.

The Pistons have zero chance of being a really good team next season. We have no Seth Curry or Kevin Durant or a Labron James. All three of those players are leaders who make playing the game fun but demand everyone's full attention to detail. We have no leaders who even care about helping the younger players with the exception of Tolliver last season. Two years ago none of the highest paid players AD or RJ gave a rat's ass about helping anyone get better. Being that both of those players are not good two way players themselves I can understand why they didn't help the younger players. They are both still trying to figure out what SVG wanted them to do in their defensive rotation system. Now they will have to learn another system. Both will have their hands full because neither really care about being solid defenders or elite defenders. Young players highly respect older vets who know how to play defense. Every player comes into the league because they are way behind the vets relating to playing the right way in NBA rotation systems. Did AD ever take Ellenson aside and show him the ropes or advise him on what he was doing wrong. How could he? AD still doesn't care enough to learn how to defend the pick and roll the right way. He is lazy at times and opponents know he is lazy. No team wins without max effort by the highest paid players. We haven't seen that happen for many seasons. Somehow the Piston front office has been asleep at the wheel and every other team in the league knows about their incompetence.

If Blake Griffin doesn't demand that the owner bring in a new starting caliber point guard and he also shows that he can be a real leader, then the Pistons will be dull and boring just like last season and the season before. If Blake cannot convince AD to become a team orientated player instead of a player looking for his own stats, then we will know Blake is not a leader. AD needs to become an athletic paint and rim protector. He cannot allow opposing players to outsmart him in the closing moments of games and get rebounds he should be securing. It is a really big turn off to watch players you as a fan are pulling for get out smarted over and over. I really can't see how any new coach can make this roster much smarter. Either you have it or you don't. The NBA is the highest level according to the propaganda but I have seen much smarter players play at the high school level. They might not be as athletically gifted but they sure were much smarter players then several of the highest paid players on this Piston team. WTF don't drop off the forum. It shows me that you are thinking when you bring out observations or thoughts about what you don't like about what is going on in Piston land. Maybe some posters are excited about AD becoming a 3 point shooter. Keep on switching on the pick and roll AD to show how dumb you are on defense when you force Ish Smith to roll with the opposing team's center while you stand and rest at the free throw line. Less distance to travel back on defense yes I know that. Lag back and pull the Charlie V technique so you are fresh when you get that pass from RJ out beyond the 3 point line. That for sure will draw a lot of fans to the games. Insanity thrives with the Pistons.

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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Sydney Lowe

Post  WTF Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:40 pm

I like the Sidney Lowe hire
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty My Stances Seem To Upset The Masses

Post  WTF Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:18 am

No I need to move on not because I'm upset by anyone's comments but because the team doesn't meet my expectation and I'm going to voice my feelings on it period,   I've made it clear that all praise needs to be earned and I'm finding it real hard to praise these players for tiny accomplishments,  I've stated I don't care what Casey did in Toronto he's in Detroit now and he needs to prove himself here before I sing a single note of praise.

I've made it clear that I'm going to scrutinize every single detail top to bottom and bottom to top rather this team win a game or loses a game.  I'm not here to cheer for second place,  or cheer AD baby steps when he's already 2 year behind where he should be,  I don't have the patience for SJ to decide he needs to work on his shot,  I'm not putting a lick of faith in RJ being injury free or becoming smarter if he isn't injured.  Quietly BG contracts makes my stomach turn so I'm going to piss and moan when he doesn't show up big.   

I'm not going to sit quietly after a loss with a better luck next time attitude pointing out tiny positives.  You only do this when a team lays it on the line blood sweat and tears, did everything right only to come up short.  Until these players take losing seriously and start getting angry about it then it's hard to respect them.

If I'm Negative that's because I Positively want to win.  It's not going to change so it's best I find a forum that pissed off and upset as I am.
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Onwards; Wasted Resources?

Post  Sparma Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:28 am

Wise, if you go, I'll also plan to go; I do hope you stay. Moving forward, I will need to decide whether or not dial involvement downwards. But really, that's always a decision for participants on an on-line forum to make. I actually was trying to do something good, which I appreciate Oracle noting, but it looks like nothing good's going to come from my confrontation so that I wish I could erase the whole thing.

Concerning resources, as I understand things, in principle we have two available resources beyond trades: a) the mid-level exception (estimated at 8.8 mil in one source), and b) a 7 mil trade exception, resulting from Boban being sent to the Clips.

We're over the salary cap, but 5 mil under the luxury level.

Stefanski conveys that we're not going over into the luxury tax unless a) we're doing well later in the season, or b) [something more murky about] there's a good deal available.

It sounds like that means that we'll leave close to 4 mil of the mid-level exception on the table (until later in the season, at least) as well as the 7 mil exception (that has a deadline during the season). Discouraging.

Practically speaking wasting resources (along with that 4.5 mil to Josh Smith) may mean not being able to resign Tolliver. He's no savior, but he is my favorite. Wise brought up not being very emotionally bonded with this team. I largely feel the same way, with the exception of Tolliver and with the new old dude about my age, Dwane Casey, an accomplished guy accompanied by major worries (eg, was it really an assistant who pushed Toronto to an innovative offensive system?) who has one more chance to pull off something really good.

Oracle wrote:Yes Don & Wise are negative a lot... so what, it doesn't bother me in the least! Ok, Don does go too far sometimes, and Wise can remind you of those people wishing the 50's would come back, but that's all part of having diverse views here.

Hell, if everyone agreed with me, that's when it's time to take a hike, or queue up the twilight zone & outer limits music  lol

Sparma, I see where you tried to do a good thing that backfired, just as you hoped it might not, so let's leave it at that and move on.

I'm mostly positive about the new management and how they're moving forward, even with the SVG handcuffs they have to deal with, hell, they may even get production out of Leuer, or at least make him look good enough to trade.

Wise, if either you or Sparma quit over this little thing, I'll personally find Lee357 and force you guys to listen to his stories for 10 hours straight, at which point your sanity will be seriously in question  lol
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Let's not start taking things the wrong way...

Post  Oracle Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:18 am

Yes Don & Wise are negative a lot... so what, it doesn't bother me in the least! Ok, Don does go too far sometimes, and Wise can remind you of those people wishing the 50's would come back, but that's all part of having diverse views here.

Hell, if everyone agreed with me, that's when it's time to take a hike, or queue up the twilight zone & outer limits music  lol

Sparma, I see where you tried to do a good thing that backfired, just as you hoped it might not, so let's leave it at that and move on.

I'm mostly positive about the new management and how they're moving forward, even with the SVG handcuffs they have to deal with, hell, they may even get production out of Leuer, or at least make him look good enough to trade.

Wise, if either you or Sparma quit over this little thing, I'll personally find Lee357 and force you guys to listen to his stories for 10 hours straight, at which point your sanity will be seriously in question  lol
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty You Stay and I'll Quit

Post  WTF Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:32 am

This forum shouldn't be full of fluff but if so then maybe I need to refrain from posting and find one that's more equally balanced in opinions.  Sparma seem all you want to hear are good things about team without recognizing the things that are wrong.  This is what my dubious analogy was aimed at and not the team itself.  My not agreeing with the shared ideas concerning advance stats don't make me negative, not applauding Casey COY doesn't make me negative I'll cheer it when become COY for this franchise.  Me thinking these players are underachievers and not applying the level of focus to become winners do not make me negative.  

The first thing wrong with this whole discussion was lumping me in with Don because neither of us share the same exact thoughts nor do we express them in the same identical manner.  I don't trash players but I do call it like I see me not applauding for AD backing into an All Star spot or not agreeing that he's better than both Ben or Bill do not make me negative.  Yet you and others insisted that 90% of what I post is negative sorry it isn't but it appears to be a lot of soft skinned folks that think if I'm not following suit then I'm negative.   

Being a fan doesn't mean I need to be cheering at every phase of minimum progression my expectation of them is win a freaking championship nothing more, nothing less.  This also includes both the Lions and Wolverines that gets my undying support as a fan.  

How this went from going back and forth with Murph about his negative views about Morris and player meetings to Wise and Don are 90% negative I'll never understand.  I really didn't like being including at all but here I am.
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Wise

Post  Sparma Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:24 pm

And we're surely not talking about battered spouses, as in your dubious analogy.

I wish I hadn't brought up the standard ugly babies example aimed at showing that truthful statements can not merely be negative but nasty. I don't see you as nasty, usually, but just as habitually negative. The friends analogy establishes that truthful statements at once can be negative.

Take my feedback for what it's worth, Wise. From my perspective, there's a flood of negativity emanating from you and Don. Why, I don't know. Some people are fueled by being habitually negative, and are able to face minimal consequences on the internet. What makes me question whether that applies to you is your undying loyalty to the Lions and clear affection for UM. I don't know you as a person, so what do I know.

I do have decisions to make as a poster on a fan forum though. I've enjoyed you as a poster over the years, even while becoming frustrated at times. When two of the, what, ten posters are overwhelmingly negative from my point of view, I need to figure out just how enjoyable that is for me as a fan and as a person, and what the best use of that quickly diminishing commodity of time is. I wanted to convey that to you and Don without rancor, and certainly understanding the frustrations of following a team that's been mediocre or worse for so long.

WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:If your truthful statement isn't negative the first time (I'm inclined to think it is), surely it becomes negative when it makes up 90% of what you say about our mutual friend. So yes, it's entirely possible to be negative even when truthful, even to be nasty as when correctly stating: "Your baby is ugly."

I'll use the above statement but here's where it all fall apart is that I'm not talking about an ugly baby I'm talking about grown men making millions of dollars not living up those very large pay checks.  This alone eliminates them from any exclusion of criticism period.  Not sure why they should be excluded when the mailman can be crucified for untimely delivery of the mail but it's somehow unfair and negative to be critical of a NBA player or any other sports athlete.  We don't make exceptions for doctors,  and I'm sure no one was making excuses for you in your professional career.  


Sparma wrote:Secondly, I don't think you're right all the time, so you don't have the full extent of cover of the above. For instance, Wise says: "The answers are in the Golden Age's of this organization." I'd agree with this up to a point, when you mean focusing on teamwork, toughness, and defense.

There's no point beyond that so no need taking it further than meaning just that,  I'm not right all the time on a lot of things but I stand fast in the believe that this team lacks that focus.  But that also concludes that it results and a lot of the other things I say.   So again why in hell would I practice any level of diplomacy in regards to athletes who are grown ass men charge with the responsibility on winning NBA Titles and this also include coaches.  So you're D- analogy of having a common friend does not fit.   In fact you can't really use an real life analogy because we're talking apples and oranges.


Sparma wrote:Would this be a fair paraphrase?: Wise: I'm not being negative, but simply stating painful truths.

Very fair when it comes to people making the level of salary these players make.  Call it the new norm all you like but if paying more for less is now the new thing then I'm not on board.  You seem to imply that I'm wrong to expect the same thing from AD and others that I and most fans expected from players of the past making far less.  I think a large part of truth is keeping it real and in perspective but then again you think I should be okay with accepting 45 win and failing in the first round as meaningful progress while not thinking about the 25 million a season said alleged All Star is making.


Sparma wrote:Running Rip through 3 or 4 screens for a mid-range shot was a killer play back in the day, partly because you could run it against anyone; these days, it could still be a killer play, but you've have to make major offensive adjustments.


And you say this as if it's an issue or impossible to do?  Why is that Sparma?  Is it because we're getting less bang for the money spent on todays athletes?  But again you're telling me this shouldn't be a point of criticism when players fail to perform the simplest of task (like boxing out, setting screens, and so on)   
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty My Lions LMAO

Post  WTF Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:38 pm

Oracle wrote:I planned a longer response, but I'm too busy.

I do want to say that you apply almost none of this to the Lions. You forcefully argued that Stafford deserved his money, in spite of the fact that he's yet to produce, even with some of the best receivers in the game, and IMO, where many other QB's could have done better.

I knew that would come up but the dynamics of football and basketball is almost night and day.  Yes I said that Stafford deserved his money but in the same sense I think he's overly paid as well but not in the same manner that NBA players are over paid.   Football is a how different beast to assess and t is more about team,   No one single player carries a team no matter how good they are when it comes to football.   Basketball though a team sport relies heavily on the individual talents of a player and tougher expectation.  NBA players don't rely on other team members like in the NFL 

Even the physical aspect are different and that in itself require bigger contracts, the NFL s about a game of inches and split second decision making. We can argue a QB throwing an INT but we can also argue that the CB was a great defender, or a miss route by a WR.  You can argue miss FT's and failing to box out in the same manner.   

Any Given Sunday right so I don't beat up Stafford largely because football was my best sport and I truly understood the small details of when a play fails or succeed.  I look at the whole play, what did the lineman do, where was the RB, did the defense adjust, was the WR a tick too slow.

IMO I find very little fault in Stafford game and most certainly I have no cause to question his effort or commitment,  I know that if  all the right things were in place that Stafford could take this Lions team to a Super Bowl.  There are so many other elements to the Lions losing than Stafford.

Also Stafford 135 million isn't guaranteed so while we can frown about it remember penny of BG, RJ and AD money is guaranteed.  Stafford could be cut tomorrow if the Lions wanted to just give him the portion that guaranteed.    If Stafford was put of for trade he'll be gone the same day but not the case with RJ, BG and AD.   NFL and NBA just different
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Wise

Post  Oracle Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:11 pm

I planned a longer response, but I'm too busy.

I do want to say that you apply almost none of this to the Lions. You forcefully argued that Stafford deserved his money, in spite of the fact that he's yet to produce, even with some of the best receivers in the game, and IMO, where many other QB's could have done better.
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty We're Not Talking About An Ugly Baby Though

Post  WTF Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:24 pm

Sparma wrote:If your truthful statement isn't negative the first time (I'm inclined to think it is), surely it becomes negative when it makes up 90% of what you say about our mutual friend. So yes, it's entirely possible to be negative even when truthful, even to be nasty as when correctly stating: "Your baby is ugly."

I'll use the above statement but here's where it all fall apart is that I'm not talking about an ugly baby I'm talking about grown men making millions of dollars not living up those very large pay checks.  This alone eliminates them from any exclusion of criticism period.  Not sure why they should be excluded when the mailman can be crucified for untimely delivery of the mail but it's somehow unfair and negative to be critical of a NBA player or any other sports athlete.  We don't make exceptions for doctors,  and I'm sure no one was making excuses for you in your professional career.  


Sparma wrote:Secondly, I don't think you're right all the time, so you don't have the full extent of cover of the above. For instance, Wise says: "The answers are in the Golden Age's of this organization." I'd agree with this up to a point, when you mean focusing on teamwork, toughness, and defense.

There's no point beyond that so no need taking it further than meaning just that,  I'm not right all the time on a lot of things but I stand fast in the believe that this team lacks that focus.  But that also concludes that it results and a lot of the other things I say.   So again why in hell would I practice any level of diplomacy in regards to athletes who are grown ass men charge with the responsibility on winning NBA Titles and this also include coaches.  So you're D- analogy of having a common friend does not fit.   In fact you can't really use an real life analogy because we're talking apples and oranges.


Sparma wrote:Would this be a fair paraphrase?: Wise: I'm not being negative, but simply stating painful truths.

Very fair when it comes to people making the level of salary these players make.  Call it the new norm all you like but if paying more for less is now the new thing then I'm not on board.  You seem to imply that I'm wrong to expect the same thing from AD and others that I and most fans expected from players of the past making far less.  I think a large part of truth is keeping it real and in perspective but then again you think I should be okay with accepting 45 win and failing in the first round as meaningful progress while not thinking about the 25 million a season said alleged All Star is making.


Sparma wrote:Running Rip through 3 or 4 screens for a mid-range shot was a killer play back in the day, partly because you could run it against anyone; these days, it could still be a killer play, but you've have to make major offensive adjustments.


And you say this as if it's an issue or impossible to do?  Why is that Sparma?  Is it because we're getting less bang for the money spent on todays athletes?  But again you're telling me this shouldn't be a point of criticism when players fail to perform the simplest of task (like boxing out, setting screens, and so on)   
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Wise/ Negativity?

Post  Sparma Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:22 pm

Wise: "I honestly wouldn't call my post negative maybe more truthful but not negative.  The truth does hurt so I understand the pain of other posters in reading my post (it's like being and a bad relationship and know it but at the same time hoping your friends don't bring it up)."

I'm not going to attempt a comprehensive answers, but I do want to make a couple of quick responses.

Would this be a fair paraphrase?: Wise: I'm not being negative, but simply stating painful truths.

I think you're sometimes right, but I also think you're sometimes wrong. Let's set that aside, and assume that you're always right. Does that imply that you're not negative? I don't think so. Let's say we have a friend who's a D student.
1) You say: Did you know that Nell's a D student?
S: No, that must be hard for her.

We have ten conversations, and in nine of them you focus on her being a D student.

The other one goes something like this:
S: Nell's a D student, but she's good at teaching pre-schoolers. In fact, she just won a prize for that.
W: She may have won a prize, but I once had a couple of friends who were way better at that. In fact, fifty years ago the number of pre-schoolers she teaches would have been below the average of the best teachers.

If your truthful statement isn't negative the first time (I'm inclined to think it is), surely it becomes negative when it makes up 90% of what you say about our mutual friend. So yes, it's entirely possible to be negative even when truthful, even to be nasty as when correctly stating: "Your baby is ugly."

Secondly, I don't think you're right all the time, so you don't have the full extent of cover of the above. For instance, Wise says: "The answers are in the Golden Age's of this organization." I'd agree with this up to a point, when you mean focusing on teamwork, toughness, and defense. The Golden Age didn't have all the answers though (and may not even have known all the questions): a) they weren't in a position to avail themselves of advanced analytics. You're in a position to know better, yet you consistently downplay statistical analysis, I think because that wasn't done in the olden days. It's hard to know the impact of analytics because much of it is proprietary. Still, I think it's fair to say that the two best times in basketball (GS and Houston) are among the team on the analytics cutting edge. It's clearer in baseball where Boston, the Cubs, and Houston used analytics as an important tool. b) You vastly underestimate the importance of the 3, again I think because that wasn't so important in our Golden Age. I'd agree that there are crucial keys to be drawn from our double golden age, but I think the notion that they have the answers has also steered you wrong. c) You can't simply replicate olden day answers because you need to score more today than those championship teams did, certainly the 2003-'04 team. Running Rip through 3 or 4 screens for a mid-range shot was a killer play back in the day, partly because you could run it against anyone; these days, it could still be a killer play, but you've have to make major offensive adjustments.
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty I'm Okay With It's Sparma

Post  WTF Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:34 pm

Sparma wrote:With Don, I hope that this sparsely populated forum makes it another year.  I realize that I'm treading on thin ice here, which may be quite pointless given that Murph's excellent at articulating his perspective.   Without wanting to indulge in polemics, I'm curious if Don and Wise would accept the following, or dispute it:

Proposition: At least 90% of what Don and Wise write about the current Pistons is negative.

Does that seem accurate as a descriptive statement?

Wise sounds like certain prophets to me in that he fiercely castigates the present population while harkening back to a golden age, and pointing ahead to how such an age might be restored.  So, wonderful things are said about the past, but there's a steady stream of negativity about the present.  (The harkening back to the past can become comical when a repeatedly reviled player like Moose becomes someone you might want to see back on the squad once he's an ex-Piston).  Wise lifts out Kennard and Ellenson, but that seems largely about what might be, rather than about what is.  Any positives about (coach of the year) Casey also refer to what he might do in the future.

Don's case is different, but also similar.  Don too harkens back to the glorious past, but he's also elaborately and doggedly positive ("fan"-atic) about certain players like Stanley Johnson, or Avery Bradley, or (going back a bit) Brandon Knight.  He refers less to the past as standard, then to a way of playing: smart, unselfish, team-first (of course, there's a lot of overlap with how the great Piston teams played).

I enjoy both Wise and Don as posters, but I'll confess that after a while the overwhelming negativity about the current team wears thin.

But should it?  

Let's say my proposition is true, it's descriptively accurate.  Maybe that degree of negativity is warranted given the frustrations of the past decade and the questionable long term prospects of the current group?  I've said a number of times that I find it to be a hard team to root for.  Both Don and Wise seem to suggest that a true fan should be so negative, given the commitment to Piston glories and to playing the right way.  But then Wise confesses to have less (little?) emotional attachment to the current group than past teams, including the Teal group (that played some fun but ugly basketball with Hill and Stack taking turns attacking the basket).

I forget the name of the poster we lost along the way who was relentlessly positive.

Not sure where that leaves us, and this post may be pointless or worse.  But I do wonder if we can at least agree at the level of description about my statement.





WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:My advice to Wise and Don is to adopt an attitude of moving on with the new team and give them the benefit of the doubt that they need to prove themselves to the fans.

I think I was on the prove it page all along. I don't harp about SVG but I'm not all giddy about Casey which means he has to prove it.  Been watching a lot of this [players over time and they all need to prove their worth.  Really how sad is it that we can't with all honesty say this team has been better and more productive than the Teal Years than many of you hated.  

The players don't get a do over every season and we should be hitting the reset button every that ends ****.  Yes we have new coach and hopefully that helps but it not the coaching hire that have me all pumped and excited either.  Sparma is right I'll likely be miserable all season with my expectations but we should all be tired of cheering for just playoff berths which we had no business rooting for in the first place.   I want a winner so any thing less than what I expect is failure.

Sparma just because things are (present) doesn't mean it's better nor should it be accepted as better.   Like a lot of things it's always easier to turn a blind eye or pretend it doesn't exist at all because it's easier to cope that way.  The easy solution for many is to just accept it and hope things will get better one day oppose to putting in the work to make it better.  I'm not surprise that being viewed as negative would be what other's may think considering how low the bar has been set.  

I always laugh at the term Golden Age because I thinks it's more of an Age of Being Right, Morally Objective and Openly Honest.   The pay checks of these players don't match the given amount of effort and commitment to winning.  I get the feeling that like most things it's become quantity over quality which is why stats are often push to blind us from actual results.   

When I look at this current team in relations to what you called Golden Age (we know what works but keep looking for other ways to solve things) The answers are in the Golden Age's of this organization.  What I get from those less negative is that most of you keep lowering the bar with this team to find resolution as if expecting less is the answer.   Maybe me and Don go so hard because most of you have lost your overly optimistic minds and some type of balance is needed.   

I honestly wouldn't call my post negative maybe more truthful but not negative.  The truth does hurt so I understand the pain of other posters in reading my post (it's like being and a bad relationship and know it but at the same time hoping your friends don't bring it up).  Every time you all go to spouting off advance stats you all sound like battered wives defending an abusive husband.  I think you all have far too many excuses in your relationship with this team and players.
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Let's see if we can agree on something

Post  Sparma Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:51 am

With Don, I hope that this sparsely populated forum makes it another year. I realize that I'm treading on thin ice here, which may be quite pointless given that Murph's excellent at articulating his perspective. Without wanting to indulge in polemics, I'm curious if Don and Wise would accept the following, or dispute it:

Proposition: At least 90% of what Don and Wise write about the current Pistons is negative.

Does that seem accurate as a descriptive statement?

Wise sounds like certain prophets to me in that he fiercely castigates the present population while harkening back to a golden age, and pointing ahead to how such an age might be restored. So, wonderful things are said about the past, but there's a steady stream of negativity about the present. (The harkening back to the past can become comical when a repeatedly reviled player like Moose becomes someone you might want to see back on the squad once he's an ex-Piston). Wise lifts out Kennard and Ellenson, but that seems largely about what might be, rather than about what is. Any positives about (coach of the year) Casey also refer to what he might do in the future.

Don's case is different, but also similar. Don too harkens back to the glorious past, but he's also elaborately and doggedly positive ("fan"-atic) about certain players like Stanley Johnson, or Avery Bradley, or (going back a bit) Brandon Knight. He refers less to the past as standard, then to a way of playing: smart, unselfish, team-first (of course, there's a lot of overlap with how the great Piston teams played).

I enjoy both Wise and Don as posters, but I'll confess that after a while the overwhelming negativity about the current team wears thin.

But should it?

Let's say my proposition is true, it's descriptively accurate. Maybe that degree of negativity is warranted given the frustrations of the past decade and the questionable long term prospects of the current group? I've said a number of times that I find it to be a hard team to root for. Both Don and Wise seem to suggest that a true fan should be so negative, given the commitment to Piston glories and to playing the right way. But then Wise confesses to have less (little?) emotional attachment to the current group than past teams, including the Teal group (that played some fun but ugly basketball with Hill and Stack taking turns attacking the basket).

I forget the name of the poster we lost along the way who was relentlessly positive.

Not sure where that leaves us, and this post may be pointless or worse. But I do wonder if we can at least agree at the level of description about my statement.





WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:My advice to Wise and Don is to adopt an attitude of moving on with the new team and give them the benefit of the doubt that they need to prove themselves to the fans.

I think I was on the prove it page all along. I don't harp about SVG but I'm not all giddy about Casey which means he has to prove it.  Been watching a lot of this [players over time and they all need to prove their worth.  Really how sad is it that we can't with all honesty say this team has been better and more productive than the Teal Years than many of you hated.  

The players don't get a do over every season and we should be hitting the reset button every that ends ****.  Yes we have new coach and hopefully that helps but it not the coaching hire that have me all pumped and excited either.  Sparma is right I'll likely be miserable all season with my expectations but we should all be tired of cheering for just playoff berths which we had no business rooting for in the first place.   I want a winner so any thing less than what I expect is failure.
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Post  WTF Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:48 am

Oracle wrote:My advice to Wise and Don is to adopt an attitude of moving on with the new team and give them the benefit of the doubt that they need to prove themselves to the fans.

I think I was on the prove it page all along. I don't harp about SVG but I'm not all giddy about Casey which means he has to prove it.  Been watching a lot of this [players over time and they all need to prove their worth.  Really how sad is it that we can't with all honesty say this team has been better and more productive than the Teal Years than many of you hated.  

The players don't get a do over every season and we should be hitting the reset button every that ends ****.  Yes we have new coach and hopefully that helps but it not the coaching hire that have me all pumped and excited either.  Sparma is right I'll likely be miserable all season with my expectations but we should all be tired of cheering for just playoff berths which we had no business rooting for in the first place.   I want a winner so any thing less than what I expect is failure.
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty So far, this new management is smart!

Post  Oracle Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:39 am

We all watched a lot of games last season. One thing most of the losses we suffered had a few things in common, but one that always bothered me more than the others... We had a lead and always lost them in the 3rd or mostly the 4th.

Somebody on this new management team has been doing their homework. Everybody doesn't have to be great defenders, but you need to have enough of them to throw out there and stop big runs. 

I really didn't like the way people would blame this player or that player for letting someone go off on us, defense is a team sport, and we tried to do it for years having generally one good defender on the floor and that's a prescription for disaster.

Even this new rookie from Texas was averaging 1+ steal per game, so he plays defense as well as score(needs work on his 3 ball though).

To Don's credit, he talks about defense a lot, and rightly saw the need, but the way he blamed individuals, instead of seeing it was a personnel and coaching issue bothered me.

Now we have management that's addressing the issue without trying to force players to be something they're not, it's called coaching the team you have, not the team you wish you had.

BTW: Shout out to Sparma, I never saw that quote... I'm afraid I'm going to have to steal it... Thanks! "Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win."
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty DX It Was Directed at Me and Don

Post  WTF Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:34 am

Murph wrote:You all need to root for the Celtics.  Marcus Morris and Aaron Baynes are your guys.  

And you pretty much despise everything about the Pistons...the owner, the coach, the center, the PG and the draft pick.

Go for it guys.  I really can't take reading this stuff anymore.

DX I was taken a back by Murph comments in this post as well.  I thought how messed up is that we need to cheer for a team just because we have more respect for Morris and Baynes than AD.  I'm at least calling like I see it oppose to just hating on a player because I developed some false truth in my head about him.  

One of the things that get talked about is keeping to the facts in discussions Morris is none of the things Murph calls him like thug, hoodlum, cancer and so on so I defend Morris as I would with any player really.   BY Murph's definition of thug then I guess most of us would be because I know I would kill a Mofo if someone offended my mom, wife, daughter, sister, girlfriend.   If Morris was everything Murph wants to call him then he in his brother would be locked up by now, that **** happened 4 or 5 years ago.   

I don't think I despise everything about the Pistons but I know a winner when I see one and I'm not joining the guessing game and jumping on the bandwagon or riding that hope train either.   Call it unfair,  but that's just the way it is and since Murph loves AD Drawer's and see no wrong maybe they should get married.

I feel like I can't take it some times tool like when all those meaningless stats get posted to validate a severely flawed player in AD,  like proclaiming him an All Star when he benefitted not from one injured player to get but 2 or 3 but it suppose to get cheered on like it was the greatest thing ever.  I'm not going to cheer that ****, that's like cheering to be second place and not a winner.

Now I really don't think I bashing when I say things, or defend the truth oppose to wishful thinking.  I'll admit I have favorites and those I root for I root for Kennard and quietly still hope Ellenson becomes the player I thought he could.  No I don't like Reggie, or AD and for the most part I'm not emotionally attached to this team like I was with the Bad Boys,  Goin 2 Work or the Teal Year Team yes I was more interested and excited with Stackhouse, Terry Mills, Grant Hill, Hunter and Houston than I am with this current group of players.  Just because I recognize the difference and choose not to embrace this group the same way doesn't mean I need to go cheer for another team.  What it mean is this team needs to be ass good at the previous Pistons teams and players I've mentioned Period.
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Post  WTF Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:57 am

Murph wrote:I've got it.  Let's trade Drummond to the Celtics for Baynes and Morris.  Then let's make Baynes a player-coach, and Morris is assistant player-coach.  Then Baynes and Morris can call all the meetings they want, and make themselves the focal point of the offense.

Problem solved!  Don and Wise can follow their two favorite player-coaches, and they don't have to watch Drummond anymore.  And Baynes and Morris can run the meetings and lead the team in scoring.  And Casey can go into retirement.  We may lose a few games, but who cares?  pom pom

You jest but we just might be a better team if we did do that  tb   I don't have an attachment to this team that I could say I would miss AD if he was traded short of liking Kennard not much else excites me about this team.  

I definitely liked Morris for more than I ever liked AD and at least Baynes will actually defend or at least attempt to so be careful about that comment.  I'm going to continue to defend Morris because your dislike towards him has nothing to do with basketball you hate him for outside stuff.  He not a thug, he's not even the scrub you try to make him out to be.  This so not cool and the same type of stuff you always accuse Don of but here you are doing the exact same thing blind by personal dislike. 

I at least judge AD by what I see on the court and rather it helps the team, by all accounts of the eye test it doesn't,  what the eye test showed in Morris case is that he was the best defender and not AD,  that his play and effort had more of a positive impact than AD.  Like I said take off the blinders and you can see it did for yourself.
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FORUM - Page 35 Empty Adding to the excitement around here:

Post  Sparma Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:51 am

Wojnarowski reports a signing for the Pistons: Keenan Evans from Texas Tech. If Woj reports it first, it's gotta be a pretty big deal. Texas Tech. Guess he would have played with Bobby Knight's son there. Bobby often said: "Most people have the will to win, few have the will to prepare to win." So true. Something to keep in mind tomorrow. And the next day.

Best wishes to Keenan with his two-way deal. Buycks made the best of it last year.
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Post  Murph Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:57 pm

I've got it.  Let's trade Drummond to the Celtics for Baynes and Morris.  Then let's make Baynes a player-coach, and Morris is assistant player-coach.  Then Baynes and Morris can call all the meetings they want, and make themselves the focal point of the offense.

Problem solved!  Don and Wise can follow their two favorite player-coaches, and they don't have to watch Drummond anymore.  And Baynes and Morris can run the meetings and lead the team in scoring. And Casey can go into retirement.  We may lose a few games, but who cares?  pom pom

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Post  Oracle Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:39 pm

DX, Sparma is 100% correct, Murph isn't talking about guys like you, me, Sparma and others, it's mostly Don. While Wise can be very negative at times, he deals with facts that are hard to argue against, Don too, but he sometimes goes too far, IMO. 

My advice to Wise and Don is to adopt an attitude of moving on with the new team and give them the benefit of the doubt that they need to prove themselves to the fans.

I'll be shocked if this negativity is present at the start of the season, but a healthy attitude of "Prove It" does make sense, and IMO, this new team wouldn't want it any other way!
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Post  Sparma Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:57 pm

Weren't Murph's comments targeted (primarily) at Don and Wise? At least, that's what I gathered from the exchange. Could be wrong. It's true that the post to which Deus responds has a "Forum" heading.


deusXango wrote:
Murph wrote:You all need to root for the Celtics.  Marcus Morris and Aaron Baynes are your guys.  
Well gawd damn! Sure I respect what Morris and Baynes brought to the Pistons, for the money and effort, and the strange fact is, they're yet to be replaced, but root for the Celtics?! Come on man!
And you pretty much despise everything about the Pistons...the owner, the coach, the center, the PG and the draft pick.
Thus far the owner has been a big disappointment, the hand-picked president/coach sabotaged the franchise, the center hasn't showed the grit an athlete of his caliber should, and our selfish PG, who specializes in S & S (sick and sucking), has been vastly overrated by too many "Pistons fans." The draft pick? Which ever one you're talking about was a big part of the saboteurs contrived plan of destruction. Yes, I despise all that sh!t being passed off as Detroit Pistons, the team I love and root for.
Go for it guys.  I really can't take reading this stuff anymore.
This is a statement of grave concern; are you under tremendous stress that shouldn't be talked about on this forum? Are you on heavy medication to deal with extreme physical pain? Whatever the real deal is, this ain't the Murph I've been reading for years.
The first thing Reggie Jackson did when he came to Detroit was stick his head "under Drummond's dress," thus endearing him to Andre...the players only meeting was aimed at Reggie's selfish, one dimensional style of play to make himself look like a star at the expense of the team. Like a little b!tch he looked to Dre for support in the room (never thinking Andre may've had as much b!tch in him as he obviously did) so Stan Van Gundy assassinated the spirit of the team upon hearing what took place in the meeting. We're all healing from the maddening disappointment of the last four years, more so from the last ten. I'm looking for a big turnaround, but will wait and see what we've got going for us now.
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Post  deusXango Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:33 pm

Murph wrote:You all need to root for the Celtics.  Marcus Morris and Aaron Baynes are your guys.  
Well gawd damn! Sure I respect what Morris and Baynes brought to the Pistons, for the money and effort, and the strange fact is, they're yet to be replaced, but root for the Celtics?! Come on man!
And you pretty much despise everything about the Pistons...the owner, the coach, the center, the PG and the draft pick.
Thus far the owner has been a big disappointment, the hand-picked president/coach sabotaged the franchise, the center hasn't showed the grit an athlete of his caliber should, and our selfish PG, who specializes in S & S (sick and sucking), has been vastly overrated by too many "Pistons fans." The draft pick? Which ever one you're talking about was a big part of the saboteurs contrived plan of destruction. Yes, I despise all that sh!t being passed off as Detroit Pistons, the team I love and root for.
Go for it guys.  I really can't take reading this stuff anymore.
This is a statement of grave concern; are you under tremendous stress that shouldn't be talked about on this forum? Are you on heavy medication to deal with extreme physical pain? Whatever the real deal is, this ain't the Murph I've been reading for years.
The first thing Reggie Jackson did when he came to Detroit was stick his head "under Drummond's dress," thus endearing him to Andre...the players only meeting was aimed at Reggie's selfish, one dimensional style of play to make himself look like a star at the expense of the team. Like a little b!tch he looked to Dre for support in the room (never thinking Andre may've had as much b!tch in him as he obviously did) so Stan Van Gundy assassinated the spirit of the team upon hearing what took place in the meeting. We're all healing from the maddening disappointment of the last four years, more so from the last ten. I'm looking for a big turnaround, but will wait and see what we've got going for us now.
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Post  Oracle Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:02 pm

Murph wrote:Do you think your guys Marcus Morris and Arron Baynes will start for the Celtics this year?  And if they don't, should they call for a players only meeting and demand to be a bigger part of the offense?
There's no way on earth they will start for a healthy Celtics team, they're role players on a good team, hell, they both came off the bench here under normal circumstances. They're both very good players though, and yes, I rooted for the Celtics during the playoffs mainly because they both played so much and so well. Baynes looked like he slimmed down a bit to me, which helped his defensive movement.

@Don: Apology accepted.

@Murph: Don't worry or get too frustrated, a lot of people are venting and aren't ready to let go of the pain(SVG) just yet. They'll come around... time heals all wounds  lol
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Post  Murph Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:35 pm

Do you think your guys Marcus Morris and Arron Baynes will start for the Celtics this year? And if they don't, should they call for a players only meeting and demand to be a bigger part of the offense?

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