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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:28 am

Build a wall...problem solved.


WTF wrote:This is sad and I was trying not to say anything on here but I need to vent about this non basketball issue.  There has to be a better solution at the border than what's going on now.  Seriously kids in cages  facepalm  seriously separating kids from parents.  If you believe in hell there's a place waiting for those that accepts and support this action.   


I'm all for protecting borders, but only in a humane compassionate fashion and those that claim this ass as their president should be a shame of this because it's evil.  These are people human beings and if you don't believe in hell than please know that Karma is a bitch and it's very real.  You see while you're sitting here supporting this crap and thinking this clown president is funny just know that in a blink of an eye some unannounced circumstance could rear it's ugly head deliver tragedy in that exact moment you decide to cheer this dumb **** on.   

Maybe you find yourself asking God why me,  why us in that same moment the answer is Karma!!!! Reaping what you sow!!!!   This compass got to get fixed fast,  the hatred, the lies, the greed, need to end or we are doomed sooner than most think
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Again The Moral Comapss Is F**ked Up

Post  WTF on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:25 am

This is sad and I was trying not to say anything on here but I need to vent about this non basketball issue.  There has to be a better solution at the border than what's going on now.  Seriously kids in cages  facepalm  seriously separating kids from parents.  If you believe in hell there's a place waiting for those that accepts and support this action.   


I'm all for protecting borders, but only in a humane compassionate fashion and those that claim this ass as their president should be a shame of this because it's evil.  These are people human beings and if you don't believe in hell than please know that Karma is a bitch and it's very real.  You see while you're sitting here supporting this crap and thinking this clown president is funny just know that in a blink of an eye some unannounced circumstance could rear it's ugly head deliver tragedy in that exact moment you decide to cheer this dumb **** on.   

Maybe you find yourself asking God why me,  why us in that same moment the answer is Karma!!!! Reaping what you sow!!!!   This compass got to get fixed fast,  the hatred, the lies, the greed, need to end or we are doomed sooner than most think


Last edited by WTF on Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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Draft/ Murph

Post  Sparma on Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:54 pm

Great work, Murph!  Your system does seem to give an inherent preference to 2nd rounders (more to gain, less to lose).   Maybe I've undervalued holding serve on high, eg, 7-9, picks as opposed to Knight and White (let alone Darko).  I initially used Monroe and Drummond as examples, but actually your chart brings out how significantly their value rose compared to their class. Maybe you could assign bonus points for leapfrogging elite competition towards the top of the draft, but that's nitpicking.

Extraordinary job!  The Freep should run your piece.

Somewhere Lee 357's still pleading the case of Sammy Mejia (who's lighting it up in Turkey).


Murph wrote:On the eve of another NBA draft, I thought I'd do a little research into just how good or bad Joe Dumars and SVG were at drafting.  

I've put together a chart of all of our draft picks since 2000, where they were picked, and how they were ranked in their draft based on career win shares.  Then I ranked them from best to worst for both Joe and Stan, based on where they were picked, versus were they were ranked in their class.  

Joe's Picks:

Amir Johnson     56, 7,   +49
Kris Middleton    39, 7,   +32
Brian Cardinal    44, 15, +29
Mehmet Okur     38, 10  +28
Jonas Jerebko    39, 18, +21
Tayshaun Prince 23, 5,  +18
Aaron Afflalo      27, 10, +17
Chase Buddnger 44, 28, +16
Will Blaylock       60, 48, +12
Vern Macklin      52, 42, +10
Payton Silva       56, 49, +7
Andre Drummond 9, 3,  +6
Alex Acker          60, 54, +6
Greg Monroe        7, 2,  +5
Carlos Delfino    25, 20, +5
Kyle Singler       33, 28, +5
Rodney Stuckey 15, 12, +3
Jason Maxiell     26, 23, +3
Kim English       44, 44,  0

KCP                   8, 11,  -3
Tony Mitchell    37, 40   -3
DJ White          29, 35   -6
D. Summers     35, 47, -12
A.Glyniadakis    46, 58, -12
Brandon Knight  8, 24,  -16
Austin Daye      15, 35, -20
Rodney White     9, 32, -23
Darko Milicic      2, 32, -30
Mateen Cleaves 14, 49 -35
D.Washinton     59, never played
Sammy Mejia    57, never played
Ricky Paulding  54, never played
Terrico White    36, never played

Stan's picks:

S. Dinwiddie   38, 15,  +23
M. Gbinijie      49, 46   +3
Luke Kennard 12, 11,   +1

Darrun Hilliard 38, 40, -2
S. Johnson      8, 27,  -19
H. Ellenson    18, 42   -24

Please note, this is certainly an inexact study.  There seem to be several outliers that don't make any sense, such as Blalock, Machlin, Silva, Acker, English and Gbinijie.  This mostly occurs with late second round picks that were terrible, but not as terrible as many of the players picked ahead of them.

From this study, I have several observations.  1) Joe was much, much better at drafting and developing players than Stan (no surprise there).  2)  Joes biggest busts were Cleaves, Darko, White, Daye and Knight.  3)  However these busts were off-set by many brilliant picks by Joe, which were mostly from the 2nd round, such as Johnson, Middleton, Cardinal, Okur, Jerebko and Buddinger. 4) Stan's only great pick was Dinwiddie, who he dumped for nothing.  5)  Although it's early in their careers, Ellenson and SJ are shaping up to be busts.  6)  All of our top 10 ranked players in their draft classes were taken by Joe, and they are Monroe, Drummond, Prince, Middleton, Johnson, Afflalo and Okur.  It's possible KCP and Kennard could become top 10 ranked in their draft classes also.
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Draft

Post  Murph on Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:05 pm

On the eve of another NBA draft, I thought I'd do a little research into just how good or bad Joe Dumars and SVG were at drafting.  

I've put together a chart of all of our draft picks since 2000, where they were picked, and how they were ranked in their draft based on career win shares.  Then I ranked them from best to worst for both Joe and Stan, based on where they were picked, versus were they were ranked in their class.  

Joe's Picks:

Amir Johnson     56, 7,   +49
Kris Middleton    39, 7,   +32
Brian Cardinal    44, 15, +29
Mehmet Okur     38, 10  +28
Jonas Jerebko    39, 18, +21
Tayshaun Prince 23, 5,  +18
Aaron Afflalo      27, 10, +17
Chase Buddnger 44, 28, +16
Will Blaylock       60, 48, +12
A.Glyniadakis      58, 46, +12
Vern Macklin      52, 42, +10
Payton Silva       56, 49, +7
Andre Drummond 9, 3,  +6
Alex Acker          60, 54, +6
Greg Monroe        7, 2,  +5
Carlos Delfino    25, 20, +5
Kyle Singler       33, 28, +5
Rodney Stuckey 15, 12, +3
Jason Maxiell     26, 23, +3
Kim English       44, 44,  0

KCP                   8, 11,  -3
Tony Mitchell    37, 40   -3
DJ White          29, 35   -6
D. Summers     35, 47, -12
Brandon Knight  8, 24,  -16
Austin Daye      15, 35, -20
Rodney White     9, 32, -23
Darko Milicic      2, 32, -30
Mateen Cleaves 14, 49 -35
D.Washinton     59, never played
Sammy Mejia    57, never played
Ricky Paulding  54, never played
Terrico White    36, never played

Stan's picks:

S. Dinwiddie   38, 15,  +23
M. Gbinijie      49, 46   +3
Luke Kennard 12, 11,   +1

Darrun Hilliard 38, 40, -2
S. Johnson      8, 27,  -19
H. Ellenson    18, 42   -24

Please note, this is certainly an inexact study.  There seem to be several outliers that don't make any sense, such as Blalock, Glyniadakis, Machlin, Silva, Acker, English and Gbinijie.  This mostly occurs with late second round picks that were terrible, but not as terrible as many of the players picked ahead of them.

From this study, I have several observations.  1) Joe was much, much better at drafting and developing players than Stan (no surprise there).  2)  Joes biggest busts were Cleaves, Darko, White, Daye and Knight.  3)  However these busts were off-set by many brilliant picks by Joe, which were mostly from the 2nd round, such as Johnson, Middleton, Cardinal, Okur, Jerebko and Buddinger. 4) Stan's only great pick was Dinwiddie, who he dumped for nothing.  5)  Although it's early in their careers, Ellenson and SJ are shaping up to be busts.  6)  All of our top 10 ranked players in their draft classes were taken by Joe, and they are Monroe, Drummond, Prince, Middleton, Johnson, Afflalo and Okur.  It's possible KCP and Kennard could become top 10 ranked in their draft classes also.


Last edited by Murph on Wed Jun 20, 2018 6:58 am; edited 3 times in total
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More Fake News

Post  Murph on Tue Jun 19, 2018 8:08 am

Phil...take the red pill. lol

Phil1980boy wrote:Did anybody read this Bull S.H.I.T article from the free press today?

Check out this quote. "Van Gundy's four years represent the most stable period for the franchise since Chuck Daly and Jack."

What the F.U.C.K man! AM I in the F.U.C.K.I.N.G MATRIX? Is this REALITY? What the F.U.C.K. Does anybody do they research anymore before A article is posted.

So Joe Dumars taking this franchise to 6 straight Eastern conference finals, two NBA finals, several division championships, Leading the NBA in attendance for like 11 years in A row, winning A NBA championship, winning Executive of the year, having 4 All stars, Ben Wallace winning defensive player of the year 4 times, Corless Williamson winning 6th man of the year, Billups winning NBA finals MVP. Ben Wallace, RIP Hamilton and C.Billups having their numbers retired is not "Stability?"


WOW!!! So Van Gundy's 4 years represent "Stability." WOW!  lol  lol

Wow Tom Gores. You really are A SACK OF S.H.I.T The Free Press is also.

I know Gores only like Blacks bouncing the basketball or coaching but don't try to ERASH what the F.U.C.K Joe did.
I call that S.H.I.T stability to the 1000 POWER!


F.YOU GORES and the Free Press.
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Tom Gores is A TRASH OWNER

Post  Phil1980boy on Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:34 am

Did anybody read this Bull S.H.I.T article from the free press today?

Check out this quote. "Van Gundy's four years represent the most stable period for the franchise since Chuck Daly and Jack."

What the F.U.C.K man! AM I in the F.U.C.K.I.N.G MATRIX? Is this REALITY? What the F.U.C.K. Does anybody do they research anymore before A article is posted.

So Joe Dumars taking this franchise to 6 straight Eastern conference finals, two NBA finals, several division championships, Leading the NBA in attendance for like 11 years in A row, winning A NBA championship, winning Executive of the year, having 4 All stars, Ben Wallace winning defensive player of the year 4 times, Corless Williamson winning 6th man of the year, Billups winning NBA finals MVP. Ben Wallace, RIP Hamilton and C.Billups having their numbers retired is not "Stability?"


WOW!!! So Van Gundy's 4 years represent "Stability." WOW!  lol  lol

Wow Tom Gores. You really are A SACK OF S.H.I.T The Free Press is also.

I know Gores only like Blacks bouncing the basketball or coaching but don't try to ERASH what the F.U.C.K Joe did.
I call that S.H.I.T stability to the 1000 POWER!


F.YOU GORES and the Free Press.
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No purpose, just to lighten things up, lol

Post  Oracle on Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:17 am

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And Here We Go

Post  BallinD on Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:01 am

@Sparma: Absolutely unbelievable the incompetence here. We clearly need additional advisers here before we solidify the Stefanski way, which it is hoped will be significantly better than the SVG way. Get Chauncey, what about Dave Bing. Sheesh, of course Zeek, and Ben!.


Sparma wrote:Interesting and insightful post on Gores, Oracle.

Having read his lengthy interview with Ellis, I'm going to pick out a few things.  I'm afraid that Murph's comment about us becoming old and grumpy applies to me and my reaction.  A number of apparently innocuous comments didn't sit well with me.

Gores: "As much as he brings in experience, we really wanted to make sure that he really liked this team."  Makes sense.  That's something you'd look for in most interviews.  Still, I'm worried that they so prioritize hiring someone who won't rock the boat.  No wonder Drummond feels reassured he's staying.  (Maybe we'll all get surprised.)

Gores: "and I think she [Brenda Casey] was surprised. ‘Geez, what is so good about this? Are you sure?’"  Sounds like there's at least one realist in the family.  Yet Gores says: "I didn’t have to sell her really."

Gores: "It was in a lot bigger disarray than we even knew at the time."  Self-excusing, or is he providing some genuine insight here?

On SVG's combined authority: "But the day-to-day job is hard on one person.”   Wait, what?  I thought SVG had clarified multiple times that he left the day to day front office details to others, joining in with the big decisions.  Someone's weaving a narrative here, and I suspect it's Gores, rather than SVG.

On Stefanski: "When I started Platinum (Equity), I combined the young, hungry research-oriented people with experienced people. That’s really a model I do like. …"  Might make some sense.  At this point I've become worried that Stefanski's authority creep might make a genuinely talented young executive reluctant to join.  I'd like to know more about why Shane Battier, a local guy and eminently qualified, bailed.

Gores on SVG: "Even when you look at hiring Stan. We brought a great man to Detroit. I don’t call that a mistake, I call that a bridge — a bridge to another place. We needed that bridge to get to greatness.”  Ellis mentions having done some editing.  I hope this is a case in point, because otherwise Gores sounds delusional about the Pistons.  He's been referring to failures at Platinum and how success ensued.  Greatness there?  Maybe (although I'm inclined to be skeptical about private equity companies).  But SVG as the Pistons' bridge to greatness???

Etc.

Ellis begins by summing Gores's mood up as hopeful.  I want to join him in being hopeful.  Indeed, I think there's some reason to be hopeful in a bounded way.  In all, I don't come away from reading that interview (twice) glad that Gores is the owner of the basketball team.  Maybe  the best thing he'll do is to contribute to the revitalization of the community.  That's more important than basketball.  Still, as a fan, whatever hope I have for the basketball team is mixed with significant apprehension.  To some extent, Casey's allayed that apprehension (eg I love that he said to major players that he understands that he doesn't have their trust yet, and that he needs to earn that trust).  Gores hasn't.

@Oracle: "The one thing that was consistent with this management team was the inability to cut deals with players to get something back instead of letting them walk." To me this is a combination of arrogance and pennywise and pound foolish: saving money now off the cap, but having lost an asset and having to pay in some way to replace it.

I went on and on about this, but the reality of this behavior is hat it exposes how they can't plan well enough to solve problems that are solved routinely in the NBA every year without this happening! This is much more a people oriented business than what Gores does. You'd think he would be able to adapt. Sounds like he should listen more to Tellem. Get a Piston in here.

The bottom line is that this management team stinks from the head(Gores), as all bad management teams do!
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Gores

Post  Sparma on Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:28 pm

Interesting and insightful post on Gores, Oracle.

Having read his lengthy interview with Ellis, I'm going to pick out a few things. I'm afraid that Murph's comment about us becoming old and grumpy applies to me and my reaction. A number of apparently innocuous comments didn't sit well with me.

Gores: "As much as he brings in experience, we really wanted to make sure that he really liked this team." Makes sense. That's something you'd look for in most interviews. Still, I'm worried that they so prioritize hiring someone who won't rock the boat. No wonder Drummond feels reassured he's staying. (Maybe we'll all get surprised.)

Gores: "and I think she [Brenda Casey] was surprised. ‘Geez, what is so good about this? Are you sure?’" Sounds like there's at least one realist in the family. Yet Gores says: "I didn’t have to sell her really."

Gores: "It was in a lot bigger disarray than we even knew at the time." Self-excusing, or is he providing some genuine insight here?

On SVG's combined authority: "But the day-to-day job is hard on one person.” Wait, what? I thought SVG had clarified multiple times that he left the day to day front office details to others, joining in with the big decisions. Someone's weaving a narrative here, and I suspect it's Gores, rather than SVG.

On Stefanski: "When I started Platinum (Equity), I combined the young, hungry research-oriented people with experienced people. That’s really a model I do like. …" Might make some sense. At this point I've become worried that Stefanski's authority creep might make a genuinely talented young executive reluctant to join. I'd like to know more about why Shane Battier, a local guy and eminently qualified, bailed.

Gores on SVG: "Even when you look at hiring Stan. We brought a great man to Detroit. I don’t call that a mistake, I call that a bridge — a bridge to another place. We needed that bridge to get to greatness.” Ellis mentions having done some editing. I hope this is a case in point, because otherwise Gores sounds delusional about the Pistons. He's been referring to failures at Platinum and how success ensued. Greatness there? Maybe (although I'm inclined to be skeptical about private equity companies). But SVG as the Pistons' bridge to greatness???

Etc.

Ellis begins by summing Gores's mood up as hopeful. I want to join him in being hopeful. Indeed, I think there's some reason to be hopeful in a bounded way. In all, I don't come away from reading that interview (twice) glad that Gores is the owner of the basketball team. Maybe the best thing he'll do is to contribute to the revitalization of the community. That's more important than basketball. Still, as a fan, whatever hope I have for the basketball team is mixed with significant apprehension. To some extent, Casey's allayed that apprehension (eg I love that he said to major players that he understands that he doesn't have their trust yet, and that he needs to earn that trust). Gores hasn't.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:44 pm

Interesting article, BallinD. Can't see us buying a 1st rounder, but doesn't Philly have 4 second rounders? Unless they can pull off a major trade there's got to be an opening there.

Vince Ellis's hit the jackpot now with a 30 minute interview with Gores. Both good (exclusive!) and bad (he's the go to guy for the team (other than the discredited Langlois)).

Gores does address Stefanski there (not that he dissipates the mystery).

BallinD wrote:Time Ia Now For Pistons Article

@Sparma: Vince Ellis has stepped his game up with a nice feature on Casey and the hiring process.  It definitely answers a few questions about the organization.  Tellem, Stefanski, Casey are clarified a bit, but to me Gores remains the mystery man.

Why he chose oldster Stefanski, is a mystery.  Why he is soooo slow, is a mystery.  What he wants to see in a basketball product is a mystery.  And why he has not expressed interest in Piston Legends is a mystery.

From the article, it appears he may begin to view Casey as a partner, and from what I have heard already, he has a better and more flexible basketball mind than SVG.  Time will tell.

Casey keeps talking about health, and for SJ, RJ and Blake, that is crucial.  Maybe Casey can convince Gores to spend some money there for a trainer in the (Arnie Kander) department of training and injury prevention (recuperation) why cant we become world class in that area like the Dubs.  

Maybe SJ just needs health and a coach who believes in him and can coach to his strengths.

Also, why can't Pistons explore buying a first round pick like the Dubs did last year and got Jordan Bell, one of the best college defnenders, who as a rookie, started in the finals due to injury to Iguadala.  Come on Pistons...try to win, will ya!

Sparma wrote:Ellis: "Ed Stefanski could have senior adviser title removed and is named GM/POBO." (with Malik Rose and Brent Berry still as strong candidates for Assistant GM.

Well, well.  The process's been a bit dubious, but as with Casey I'm strongly inclined to judge performance by results.

Pinning things down more/ revising a bit from an earlier post (beginning next year and into the foreseeable future):

39 or fewer wins: Trouble, except that a disastrous injury situation buys you time.

40-45 wins, maybe a 1st round win or at least close: Maybe a light pat on the back: you helped the team improve beyond last year's record [but not beyond SVG with a healthy Reggie J]  so you deserve some credit.  But you haven't guided the team beyond where I expected it to be next year anyway.  I'm skeptical that this could count as genuine success for the new regime, certainly not beyond this year.

46-55 wins & playoff success beyond the 1st round: Good job, especially as we move  into the 50s.  You took the team beyond my present expectations.

Beyond 55 wins & getting to the conference championship, maybe even to the Finals in a flukish run: Excellent.  You've exceeded where I thought the team could go.

Regularly in or near the NBA Finals or a Championship: Incredible job, you're magicians.  

I understand that you could set the standards differently, but that's where I'm at.  In Stefanski's case, I know so little about him that judging (at once) by results seems like the only way to go.
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Ballin

Post  Oracle on Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:04 pm

While Gores is a mystery, more importantly, he's a big part of the problem!

1. He tells the world that he'll go over the CAP to sign KCP... Wow, I like KCP, and I wouldn't go over the CAP to sign him. More importantly, that set in motion his agent getting a big head, and any reasonable amount short of that was hard for KCP's side to swallow. Gores forced that situation for no apparent reason, it was stupid and bad business for a supposed business man.

2. Gores has regularly let his personal relationship with Drummond color how Drummond should be handled. It became painfully clear how much they talk when Drummond said he knows he isn't going anywhere now that SVG has been canned... you don't run a team that way unless the dude you're talking about is a super star!

3. His invisible hand was ALL over the Blake Griffin trade! Yeah SVG went along, he probably shouldn't because the results are the same, he got canned.

4. Even prior to all of this, he made Joe make silly trades in an all out effort to get into the playoffs, moves that cost us long term, like Knight and Middleton for Jennings. I don't know if he had anything to do with Moose walking, but who knows. 

The one thing that was consistent with this management team was the inability to cut deals with players to get something back instead of letting them walk.

I went on and on about this, but the reality of this behavior is hat it exposes how they can't plan well enough to solve problems that are solved routinely in the NBA every year without this happening!

The bottom line is that this management team stinks from the head(Gores), as all bad management teams do!
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Mo Better

Post  BallinD on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:15 pm

Time Ia Now For Pistons Article

@Sparma: Vince Ellis has stepped his game up with a nice feature on Casey and the hiring process.  It definitely answers a few questions about the organization.  Tellem, Stefanski, Casey are clarified a bit, but to me Gores remains the mystery man.

Why he chose oldster Stefanski, is a mystery.  Why he is soooo slow, is a mystery.  What he wants to see in a basketball product is a mystery.  And why he has not expressed interest in Piston Legends is a mystery.

From the article, it appears he may begin to view Casey as a partner, and from what I have heard already, he has a better and more flexible basketball mind than SVG.  Time will tell.

Casey keeps talking about health, and for SJ, RJ and Blake, that is crucial.  Maybe Casey can convince Gores to spend some money there for a trainer in the (Arnie Kander) department of training and injury prevention (recuperation) why cant we become world class in that area like the Dubs.

Maybe SJ just needs health and a coach who believes in him and can coach to his strengths.

Also, why can't Pistons explore buying a first round pick like the Dubs did last year and got Jordan Bell, one of the best college defnenders, who as a rookie, started in the finals due to injury to Iguadala.  Come on Pistons...try to win, will ya!

Sparma wrote:Ellis: "Ed Stefanski could have senior adviser title removed and is named GM/POBO." (with Malik Rose and Brent Berry still as strong candidates for Assistant GM.

Well, well.  The process's been a bit dubious, but as with Casey I'm strongly inclined to judge performance by results.

Pinning things down more/ revising a bit from an earlier post (beginning next year and into the foreseeable future):

39 or fewer wins: Trouble, except that a disastrous injury situation buys you time.

40-45 wins, maybe a 1st round win or at least close: Maybe a light pat on the back: you helped the team improve beyond last year's record [but not beyond SVG with a healthy Reggie J]  so you deserve some credit.  But you haven't guided the team beyond where I expected it to be next year anyway.  I'm skeptical that this could count as genuine success for the new regime, certainly not beyond this year.

46-55 wins & playoff success beyond the 1st round: Good job, especially as we move  into the 50s.  You took the team beyond my present expectations.

Beyond 55 wins & getting to the conference championship, maybe even to the Finals in a flukish run: Excellent.  You've exceeded where I thought the team could go.

Regularly in or near the NBA Finals or a Championship: Incredible job, you're magicians.  

I understand that you could set the standards differently, but that's where I'm at.  In Stefanski's case, I know so little about him that judging (at once) by results seems like the only way to go.
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Expectations...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:53 pm

Sparma wrote:Glad to hear we're roughly on the same page with expectations/ standards of evaluation, Oracle.

I've thought up some responses to Wise, but am going to hold off now. I will say that having such high expectations sounds like a recipe for misery, Wise. In an athlete, or in a front office, super high expectations might be what you're looking for though.
Unrealistic expectations are exactly how we got here!

Gores demanded that Joe get to the playoffs or he was going to be canned. Last year, that fell on SVG, and launched the Blake Griffin sweepstakes. Even though the failed dealing with KCP caused the ultimate demise of the SVG era, because failure to handle that situation correctly caused us to lose him for nothing, move Morris for Bradley, which eventually forced us into moving Harris & Bradley for Griffin.

So in the blink of an eye, we lost KCP, Morris & Harris Bradley(error), 3/5 of the core that got us into the playoffs... what a bunch of dumb moves, but I digress.

55 wins as a floor for next year is ridiculous considering the competition, both east and west. It may be possible, but FORCING that level of result on a new coach and a team, yet to develop the chemistry required to get there would produce disastrous results.
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Happy Father's Day!

Post  Sparma on Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:44 pm

Glad to hear we're roughly on the same page with expectations/ standards of evaluation, Oracle.

I've thought up some responses to Wise, but am going to hold off now. I will say that having such high expectations sounds like a recipe for misery, Wise. In an athlete, or in a front office, super high expectations might be what you're looking for though.

WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:"peace and prosperity again LMAO!!!!"

Yes...peace and prosperity again!  clap


And to extend the political metaphor, isn't blaming Casey for SVG's screw-ups like blaming Obama for GW Bush's screw-ups?

No one blaming Casey for SVG screw ups no more than any sensible person would blame Obama for GW's screw ups but both bare the responsibility of fixing the screw ups period.   This is part of the reason that Moral Compass gets all fucked up because the road to accountability always cluttered with disclaimers about what's the blame and who's to blame. Casey took on a job he now owns it just as Obama owned it after GW, just as SVG owned after it Joe and so on.   
You get hired to produce and fired for failing to produce what's so hard to understand about that?  Honestly I don't think it's unreasonable when you're getting paid millions to hold a coach accountable for what happens in the w/l column.  I certainly blamed SVG, like many blamed Flip in the past.  

Have you every went in to work and some **** needed to be fix now that some other worker fucked up but you're now charged with fixing it?  How many excuse of it's not my fault did you get as a disclaimer for not fixing it?   

Casey not being asked to fix the world, he's being asked to coach a winning team and really how hard is that because we all do it from this forum all season long.
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Happy Fathers Day Everyone

Post  WTF on Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:17 am

Murph wrote:"peace and prosperity again LMAO!!!!"

Yes...peace and prosperity again!  clap


And to extend the political metaphor, isn't blaming Casey for SVG's screw-ups like blaming Obama for GW Bush's screw-ups?

No one blaming Casey for SVG screw ups no more than any sensible person would blame Obama for GW's screw ups but both bare the responsibility of fixing the screw ups period.   This is part of the reason that Moral Compass gets all fucked up because the road to accountability always cluttered with disclaimers about what's the blame and who's to blame. Casey took on a job he now owns it just as Obama owned it after GW, just as SVG owned after it Joe and so on.   
You get hired to produce and fired for failing to produce what's so hard to understand about that?  Honestly I don't think it's unreasonable when you're getting paid millions to hold a coach accountable for what happens in the w/l column.  I certainly blamed SVG, like many blamed Flip in the past.  

Have you every went in to work and some **** needed to be fix now that some other worker fucked up but you're now charged with fixing it?  How many excuse of it's not my fault did you get as a disclaimer for not fixing it?   

Casey not being asked to fix the world, he's being asked to coach a winning team and really how hard is that because we all do it from this forum all season long.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:40 am

"peace and prosperity again LMAO!!!!"

Yes...peace and prosperity again!  clap


And to extend the political metaphor, isn't blaming Casey for SVG's screw-ups like blaming Obama for GW Bush's screw-ups?
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The Morality Bar Is Kinda Of Low As Well

Post  WTF on Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:24 am

Murph wrote:I am willing to forgive a lot of verbal gaffes for peace and prosperity.

Verbal gaffes LMAO!!!  peace and prosperity again LMAO!!!!  Seriously those gaffes (LOL) has caused more hatred and division than I care to witness.  Again the Moral Compass is FUBAR leading us far from the direction of any peace and prosperity.
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The Bar Is Where It Should Be and Where It Should Always Be Period!

Post  WTF on Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:03 am

Murph wrote:"Gentlemen anything less than 55 wins and a trip the ECF is a failed season considering the amount of salary being paid to our (cough, cough) Big Three they should be delivering on the GOODS and not the aspirations some young team rising out of the lottery."


Wise...that's a pretty high bar.  Gores and his people are the ones who created the salary structure that pays RJ $17 million, Drummond $25 million and Griffin $35 million.  I may or may not agree with the statement that anything less than 55 wins and a trip to the ECFs is a failed season for Gores and the Pistons organization.  

However, I think it's unrealistic to blame an incoming coach for achieving less than 55 wins.  Casey did not create the salary structure on this team; he has inherited this situation.

Please, let's lay the blame where it belongs....firmly on SVG,  and the people who gave him the power to ruin our salary structure and trade away our draft pick.


Yes he inherited now he needs to fix it and quickly regardless of who may or may not be the blame for it.  This team wasn't forced on him he saw it for what it was and I'm sure in his interview he told Gore he could fix it.  There lays his accountability where this team finishes.

Keeping in mind I'm not blaming him for salaries, and the loss of draft picks but he does get blame for the what happens in Win/Lose column so it's not unrealistic to place blame on him for that.   BTW he's already professing that the team is ready to contend now he's need to own up to that statement and deliver on the Goods.  He sold it to Gore for the job and now he's selling it to the fans through the media. 

It's his responsibility to get these players and this team to the Next Level,  I doubt Gore asked for the 40-45 wins many of you seem to be okay with.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:03 am

"Gentlemen anything less than 55 wins and a trip the ECF is a failed season considering the amount of salary being paid to our (cough, cough) Big Three they should be delivering on the GOODS and not the aspirations some young team rising out of the lottery."


Wise...that's a pretty high bar.  Gores and his people are the ones who created the salary structure that pays RJ $17 million, Drummond $25 million and Griffin $35 million.  I may or may not agree with the statement that anything less than 55 wins and a trip to the ECFs is a failed season for Gores and the Pistons organization.  

However, I think it's unrealistic to blame an incoming coach for achieving less than 55 wins.  Casey did not create the salary structure on this team; he has inherited this situation.

Please, let's lay the blame where it belongs....firmly on SVG,  and the people who gave him the power to ruin our salary structure and trade away our draft pick.

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Peace and Prosperity

Post  Murph on Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:49 am

WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:
WTF wrote:Okay I won't say that politicians don't but really this **** make no freaking sense whatsoever.  Thousand and Thousand of parents of lost solders of the Korean War came up to me and asked Mr. President please bring my son home.   Sadly a lot of his supporters believe dumb **** like this because they can't put 2 nickels together to make a dime.  WTF facepalm

Wise, I have to agree with you on that one.  The math doesn't work.  The Korean War ended in 1953.  If an 18 year old kid were killed in action in in Korea 1953, he would have been born in 1935.  A parent of that child would have been born in 1915 or much earlier.

That means that the youngest possible parent of a Korean War vet is 93 years old, and most parents would undoubtedly be much much older, if they were still alive today.  It doesn't make any sense that thousands of 93 year old parents, or older, have approached Trump to thank him about bringing back the remains of their sons.  

Perhaps Trump meant the CHILDREN of Korean War vets?

Again this world has lost it's moral compass when this stuff is consistent done and accepted daily.  When does enough becomes enough?  Not just with this dumbass but in general period.   I might be alone in my thinking but this world is all fucked up SMH

Wise...what I hope and expect from my Presidents are policies that lead to peace and prosperity...3.5% GDP growth, robust job creation, record low unemployment, rising stock market, better trade deals, the destruction of ISIS, opening negotiations with N.Korea, etc.  

I am willing to forgive a lot of verbal gaffes for peace and prosperity.
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Y'all Really Need To Raise The Level Of Expectations

Post  WTF on Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:21 am

Oracle wrote:Sparma, that was something I questioned a while back,
Oracle wrote:One question: Does anyone think Stefanski will pull a Dick Cheney, and have the person conducting the search wind up being the person that gets hired for the gig?
Looks like it's about to happen. Not that I object all that much, but for whatever reason, that's the way it smelled to me all along. 

It does offend my sense of fairness a bit, because the guy doing the search that hires himself has a bias that's off the charts!

As for your post: I think you've laid out a very reasonable measuring stick that I could support and is very reasonable.
Sparma wrote:Ellis: "Ed Stefanski could have senior adviser title removed and is named GM/POBO." (with Malik Rose and Brent Berry still as strong candidates for Assistant GM.

Well, well.  The process's been a bit dubious, but as with Casey I'm strongly inclined to judge performance by results.

Pinning things down more/ revising a bit from an earlier post (beginning next year and into the foreseeable future):

39 or fewer wins: Trouble, except that a disastrous injury situation buys you time.

40-45 wins, maybe a 1st round win or at least close: Maybe a light pat on the back: you helped the team improve beyond last year's record [but not beyond SVG with a healthy Reggie J]  so you deserve some credit.  But you haven't guided the team beyond where I expected it to be next year anyway.  I'm skeptical that this could count as genuine success for the new regime, certainly not beyond this year.

46-55 wins & playoff success beyond the 1st round: Good job, especially as we move  into the 50s.  You took the team beyond my present expectations.

Beyond 55 wins & getting to the conference championship, maybe even to the Finals in a flukish run: Excellent.  You've exceeded where I thought the team could go.

Regularly in or near the NBA Finals or a Championship: Incredible job, you're magicians.  

I understand that you could set the standards differently, but that's where I'm at.  In Stefanski's case, I know so little about him that judging (at once) by results seems like the only way to go.
DX wrote:If we're not going to name names or be direct, let's not destroy what we have, okay Wise? By the way, I always enjoy your posts, that's not to say I always agree with them but, they give me reason to pause and think.
Great thoughts DX!

Gentlemen anything less than 55 wins and a trip the ECF is a failed season considering the amount of salary being paid to our (cough, cough) Big Three they should be delivering on the GOODS and not the aspirations some young team rising out of the lottery.

You guys are far too soft on the expectations and measuring method.   You all do realize that annually 18, 25, 35 million is being kicked out to RJ, AD and BG and that these aren't kids.   This song has been sung the past 2 seasons so why sing it for a third
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Sparma & DX

Post  Oracle on Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:24 pm

Sparma, that was something I questioned a while back,
Oracle wrote:One question: Does anyone think Stefanski will pull a Dick Cheney, and have the person conducting the search wind up being the person that gets hired for the gig?
Looks like it's about to happen. Not that I object all that much, but for whatever reason, that's the way it smelled to me all along. 

It does offend my sense of fairness a bit, because the guy doing the search that hires himself has a bias that's off the charts!

As for your post: I think you've laid out a very reasonable measuring stick that I could support and is very reasonable.
Sparma wrote:Ellis: "Ed Stefanski could have senior adviser title removed and is named GM/POBO." (with Malik Rose and Brent Berry still as strong candidates for Assistant GM.

Well, well.  The process's been a bit dubious, but as with Casey I'm strongly inclined to judge performance by results.

Pinning things down more/ revising a bit from an earlier post (beginning next year and into the foreseeable future):

39 or fewer wins: Trouble, except that a disastrous injury situation buys you time.

40-45 wins, maybe a 1st round win or at least close: Maybe a light pat on the back: you helped the team improve beyond last year's record [but not beyond SVG with a healthy Reggie J]  so you deserve some credit.  But you haven't guided the team beyond where I expected it to be next year anyway.  I'm skeptical that this could count as genuine success for the new regime, certainly not beyond this year.

46-55 wins & playoff success beyond the 1st round: Good job, especially as we move  into the 50s.  You took the team beyond my present expectations.

Beyond 55 wins & getting to the conference championship, maybe even to the Finals in a flukish run: Excellent.  You've exceeded where I thought the team could go.

Regularly in or near the NBA Finals or a Championship: Incredible job, you're magicians.  

I understand that you could set the standards differently, but that's where I'm at.  In Stefanski's case, I know so little about him that judging (at once) by results seems like the only way to go.
DX wrote:If we're not going to name names or be direct, let's not destroy what we have, okay Wise? By the way, I always enjoy your posts, that's not to say I always agree with them but, they give me reason to pause and think.
Great thoughts DX!
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Vince Ellis on Stefanski; Judging on results

Post  Sparma on Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:55 pm

Ellis: "Ed Stefanski could have senior adviser title removed and is named GM/POBO." (with Malik Rose and Brent Berry still as strong candidates for Assistant GM.

Well, well. The process's been a bit dubious, but as with Casey I'm strongly inclined to judge performance by results.

Pinning things down more/ revising a bit from an earlier post (beginning next year and into the foreseeable future):

39 or fewer wins: Trouble, except that a disastrous injury situation buys you time.

40-45 wins, maybe a 1st round win or at least close: Maybe a light pat on the back: you helped the team improve beyond last year's record [but not beyond SVG with a healthy Reggie J] so you deserve some credit. But you haven't guided the team beyond where I expected it to be next year anyway. I'm skeptical that this could count as genuine success for the new regime, certainly not beyond this year.

46-55 wins & playoff success beyond the 1st round: Good job, especially as we move into the 50s. You took the team beyond my present expectations.

Beyond 55 wins & getting to the conference championship, maybe even to the Finals in a flukish run: Excellent. You've exceeded where I thought the team could go.

Regularly in or near the NBA Finals or a Championship: Incredible job, you're magicians.

I understand that you could set the standards differently, but that's where I'm at. In Stefanski's case, I know so little about him that judging (at once) by results seems like the only way to go.
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Sat Jun 16, 2018 4:21 pm

WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:
WTF wrote:Okay I won't say that politicians don't but really this **** make no freaking sense whatsoever.  Thousand and Thousand of parents of lost solders of the Korean War came up to me and asked Mr. President please bring my son home.   Sadly a lot of his supporters believe dumb **** like this because they can't put 2 nickels together to make a dime.  WTF facepalm

Wise, I have to agree with you on that one.  The math doesn't work.  The Korean War ended in 1953.  If an 18 year old kid were killed in action in in Korea 1953, he would have been born in 1935.  A parent of that child would have been born in 1915 or much earlier.

That means that the youngest possible parent of a Korean War vet is 93 years old, and most parents would undoubtedly be much much older, if they were still alive today.  It doesn't make any sense that thousands of 93 year old parents, or older, have approached Trump to thank him about bringing back the remains of their sons.  

Perhaps Trump meant the CHILDREN of Korean War vets?

Again this world has lost it's moral compass when this stuff is consistent done and accepted daily.  When does enough becomes enough?  Not just with this dumbass but in general period.   I might be alone in my thinking but this world is all fucked up SMH
HERE, HERE!!!
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No Excuses

Post  WTF on Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:48 am

Murph wrote:
WTF wrote:Okay I won't say that politicians don't but really this **** make no freaking sense whatsoever.  Thousand and Thousand of parents of lost solders of the Korean War came up to me and asked Mr. President please bring my son home.   Sadly a lot of his supporters believe dumb **** like this because they can't put 2 nickels together to make a dime.  WTF facepalm

Wise, I have to agree with you on that one.  The math doesn't work.  The Korean War ended in 1953.  If an 18 year old kid were killed in action in in Korea 1953, he would have been born in 1935.  A parent of that child would have been born in 1915 or much earlier.

That means that the youngest possible parent of a Korean War vet is 93 years old, and most parents would undoubtedly be much much older, if they were still alive today.  It doesn't make any sense that thousands of 93 year old parents, or older, have approached Trump to thank him about bringing back the remains of their sons.  

Perhaps Trump meant the CHILDREN of Korean War vets?

Again this world has lost it's moral compass when this stuff is consistent done and accepted daily.  When does enough becomes enough?  Not just with this dumbass but in general period.   I might be alone in my thinking but this world is all fucked up SMH
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Re: FORUM

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