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Y'all Killing Me

Post  WTF on Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:06 pm

Sparma breaks out with the analytics and Oracle using a the Baby analogy on me  lol 

Oracle if we were talking about a team full of rookies making the minimum then please use this analogy but 90% of the roster is beyond the infant stages of their career and should be delivering exactly what they're being paid to do.  Oracle I'm getting the impression that AD can be on a second max contract and you'll still be calling him a toddler lol 

Sparma it's not confusing at all I expect them to deliver 55 wins but also predict the failure to do so.  You ever had an annual merit review at work and the option are either below expectation, meet expectations,  exceed expectation or outstanding?  Look at the meet expectation as the 55 wins I'm asking for,  56 or 57 would exceed my expectation and a trip to the Finals would be outstanding.  

I would guess that maybe you been on both sides of the review process and as a boss you know what the expectation are but you can see clear as day that there that 1 employee that going to fall below expectations.  Do you lower your expectation because of it?  

BTW Oracle you had a baby that was earning the money these jokers are and the requirement was to run I can see you screaming run baby run you can do it please for daddy  lol
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Seriously?

Post  Oracle on Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:31 pm

WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:@Wise: You're a bit confused, you got a full answer to your original question, then you posted more questions. Anyway, the answer is still the same, somebody believes they're worth it, and nobody in their right mind invests in something that's fully formed, they bet on the come and believe they'll get there, otherwise, people wouldn't have kids

Would you buy a new car hoping it'll ride better in 5 years?  Very Happy  I'm not confuse I just didn't think I needed to be as detailed with my original question of why are we paying them?   I need to ask those additional questions to get back to the original question and your responded answer as simple as it was only leads back to the original question.   

There's not a single poster here that thinks this group of players especially the highly paid ones are capable of delivering what the organization has invested in or supposedly invested in and that's winning a championship.  Granted it's a gamble and no sure thing but what should be a certainty is that the effort of a champion is there.  I don't see it so the question remains why are they being paid?  They should at least be delivering on the effort end is all I'm saying.
That's exactly right, and if you READ what I wrote, it's crystal clear(ok, well, red above). 

A car is NOT an investment, you BUY a car... fully formed, it's worth less the second after your check clears. You aren't looking for it to get better, you're looking for it to do what you bought it to do.

I didn't expect my baby to walk on day one, you don't expect rookies to dominate the league in their first year, it's an investment!

Nobody here or in this organization should ever expect to win a championship, just hopefully to be able to compete for one, you have the cart WAY in front of the horse.

Getting to where you claim to want requires a LOT of hard work and it isn't all about the players(even though it's mostly them). Have we had a championship organization? If not, why not one word about expectations for that, why only the players?

It's crazy that fans can make all of these demands and not realize the work involved to get there. This is a chess game, not checkers, one false move and it's back to the drawing board.

I know you want it to be as simple as measuring dicks, er., I mean salaries, but it's a lot more complicated.

This coming season is going to be a lot of fun. Watching Stanley finally get going, watching Kennard grow into the deadly shooter and player he's projected to become, watching Drummond, finally with a big man he can respect, grow into a dominating force(hopefully), watching the rebirth of GR3 and many more story lines, not the least of which is the vindication of Casey and Reggie.

Being a cynic is easy, being a fan that wants to enjoy this team, with all of its flaws is harder, but that's exactly what I'm going to do, living large with each win and dying with each loss.
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Confusion is thy name...

Post  Oracle on Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:15 pm

WTF wrote:
No prediction this season for me please note that my expectations and prediction bares very little resemblance if any at all.  My expectations are more of a standard as a raising of the bar rather the team is able to deliver on that is something I can't predict.   I'm so far removed from any form of optimism with the current makeup of this rosters that in fact I see no difference between last yeast season or this season that say's 39 wins won't be the max this season coming.
No prediction from you, but you said to : "So please put me down for 55 wins or better"

What???
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Perplexed

Post  Sparma on Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:06 pm

Doesn't a minimum reasonable expectation of 55 wins just mean that one reasonably expects a minimum of 55 wins?

If not, there's been some miscommunication along the way.

I might say: Given my niece's great education, the minimal reasonable expectation is that she'll get a job earning $50,000 this coming year.  I'd say the straightforward interpretation of that statement would be that that's what I expect to happen.

IF my actual expectations are lower than what I say the minimal reasonable expectations should be, it seems fair for onlookers to think there's something unusual and confusing going on.  Some possibilities: a) maybe I'm angry at the institution and am saying something like: after spending all that money on tuition at a purportedly fine school, the least one should expect is "x", but x isn't' going to happen, so that school isn't all that, or b) maybe I'm covertly blaming my niece, saying that any graduate should reasonably get x, she isn't, so I'm expressing that she's falling short of reasonable expectations.  In both cases, the reference to minimal reasonable expectations emerges as rhetoric aimed at establishing some point.

In the case of the Pistons, maybe the idea could be: a) surely if you're spending that much on 3 key players, the least one should expect is...., or b) after all the praise for ... surely....   In those two cases, maybe there's an expectation placed on others that one doesn't embrace oneself.  

So there do seem to be possibilities, but frankly I'm not clear about how to interpret fixing minimal reasonable expectations for the Pistons at 55 if that really isn't what you're projecting.

Tweaking the example above, let's say that someone we knows been earning 39 thousand.  One expert commentator expects her to stay at that level, while a couple of others expect her to earn 44-45 thou next year, while someone else ventures an estimate in the high 40s.  What to think of someone who comes along and says: well, the minimal reasonable expectation for her earnings this year should be $55,000.  If that person doesn't actually project that happening, things become puzzling.  A  potential 10% (> 43.9) or even 20% (> 46.9) improvement in pay is framed in advance as a source of disappointment, maybe as cause for anger, not only for the speaker but evidently also for listeners, even though the speaker's actual expectations are below the set minimum reasonable expectation of 55 thou.  Confusing, to say the least.

Is all cleared up once we remember that both her parents and her grandparents achieved great success, so that that history sets a kind of minimal bar to clear?







WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:WTF: Congratulations again on hitting the team's win total on the button.

With your minimal reasonable expectation of 55 wins, I can't wait to see your predicted win total this year. 55, 56, 57, or beyond?

I'm hoping not to be disillusioned regarding your newfound optimism and the accompanying >55 win total expectation, but fingers crossed.

No prediction this season for me please note that my expectations and prediction bares very little resemblance if any at all.  My expectations are more of a standard as a raising of the bar rather the team is able to deliver on that is something I can't predict.   I'm so far removed from any form of optimism with the current makeup of this rosters that in fact I see no difference between last yeast season or this season that say's 39 wins won't be the max this season coming.
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My Question

Post  WTF on Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:09 pm

Oracle wrote:@Wise: You're a bit confused, you got a full answer to your original question, then you posted more questions. Anyway, the answer is still the same, somebody believes they're worth it, and nobody in their right mind invests in something that's fully formed, they bet on the come and believe they'll get there, otherwise, people wouldn't have kids

Would you buy a new car hoping it'll ride better in 5 years?  Very Happy  I'm not confuse I just didn't think I needed to be as detailed with my original question of why are we paying them?   I need to ask those additional questions to get back to the original question and your responded answer as simple as it was only leads back to the original question.   

There's not a single poster here that thinks this group of players especially the highly paid ones are capable of delivering what the organization has invested in or supposedly invested in and that's winning a championship.  Granted it's a gamble and no sure thing but what should be a certainty is that the effort of a champion is there.  I don't see it so the question remains why are they being paid?  They should at least be delivering on the effort end is all I'm saying.
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Just Setting A New Standard

Post  WTF on Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:49 am

Sparma wrote:WTF: Congratulations again on hitting the team's win total on the button.

With your minimal reasonable expectation of 55 wins, I can't wait to see your predicted win total this year. 55, 56, 57, or beyond?

I'm hoping not to be disillusioned regarding your newfound optimism and the accompanying >55 win total expectation, but fingers crossed.

No prediction this season for me please note that my expectations and prediction bares very little resemblance if any at all.  My expectations are more of a standard as a raising of the bar rather the team is able to deliver on that is something I can't predict.   I'm so far removed from any form of optimism with the current makeup of this rosters that in fact I see no difference between last yeast season or this season that say's 39 wins won't be the max this season coming.
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Oracle & WTF

Post  Sparma on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:57 pm

Thanks for posting Pelton's predictions, Oracle.

WTF: Congratulations again on hitting the team's win total on the button.

With your minimal reasonable expectation of 55 wins, I can't wait to see your predicted win total this year. 55, 56, 57, or beyond?

I'm hoping not to be disillusioned regarding your newfound optimism and the accompanying >55 win total expectation, but fingers crossed.


Oracle wrote:@Don: I'm still waiting for you to back up anything you said in that post, or admit that you made it up


@Wise: You're a bit confused, you got a full answer to your original question, then you posted more questions. Anyway, the answer is still the same, somebody believes they're worth it, and nobody in their right mind invests in something that's fully formed, they bet on the come and believe they'll get there, otherwise, people wouldn't have kids Smile

I do agree with you on two items. BG's child support, while it is news, it's a non-story. Nothing to do with basketball and is a personal issue. While it is worth mentioning, the coverage is way too much in the basketball arena. It's more of an entertainment story, TMZ stuff.

On Andre's 3 point shooting, I'm not opposed to it, but is that really what we want from him? 
Derrick Jones Jr. nastily dunks on Andre Drummond wrote:Andre Drummond is working on 3-pointers.

Maybe he ought to spend more time on rim protection.

The Pistons center got demolished by Heat forward Derrick Jones Jr. in the Miami Pro League.

To be fair to Drummond, Jones is an exceptional athlete. He can dunk on even good rim protectors. And getting dunked on shows effort. But Drummond definitely has room to improve his defensive awareness.
Video HereDerrick Jones Jr. nastily dunks on Andre Drummond

@Sparma: Here's the ESPN Predictions.


The BIG News Here: They're predicting the LeBron Lakers don't even make the playoffs  lol
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Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:24 pm

@Don: I'm still waiting for you to back up anything you said in that post, or admit that you made it up


@Wise: You're a bit confused, you got a full answer to your original question, then you posted more questions. Anyway, the answer is still the same, somebody believes they're worth it, and nobody in their right mind invests in something that's fully formed, they bet on the come and believe they'll get there, otherwise, people wouldn't have kids Smile

I do agree with you on two items. BG's child support, while it is news, it's a non-story. Nothing to do with basketball and is a personal issue. While it is worth mentioning, the coverage is way too much in the basketball arena. It's more of an entertainment story, TMZ stuff.

On Andre's 3 point shooting, I'm not opposed to it, but is that really what we want from him? 
Derrick Jones Jr. nastily dunks on Andre Drummond wrote:Andre Drummond is working on 3-pointers.

Maybe he ought to spend more time on rim protection.

The Pistons center got demolished by Heat forward Derrick Jones Jr. in the Miami Pro League.

To be fair to Drummond, Jones is an exceptional athlete. He can dunk on even good rim protectors. And getting dunked on shows effort. But Drummond definitely has room to improve his defensive awareness.
Video HereDerrick Jones Jr. nastily dunks on Andre Drummond

@Sparma: Here's the ESPN Predictions.


The BIG News Here: They're predicting the LeBron Lakers don't even make the playoffs  lol
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Oh My Again!!!!

Post  WTF on Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:32 pm

Why is this even news?  Like I said something is seriously wrong with todays fans that BG Child Support issue is news.  It's no ones damn business first of all yet the NBA allow the media to report on this.  Enough may never be enough SMH again  facepalm
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Oh My!!!!

Post  WTF on Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:28 pm

If Casey allows AD to start jacking up 3-pointers when he hasn't yet to develop a decent mid range game then he's already a turd of a coach.  This idea could only be acceptable if AD had an already dominate post game and mid-range shoot and he doesn't.   SMH  facepalm
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With our Pistons projected by experts to end up with a break even or losing record, this new coach will be tested by our two team Captains AD and RJ as to their seriousness in creating a winning team

Post  cool breeze on Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:12 pm

My prediction is that one of the two Tom Gores appointed captains Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson will be gone before the next trade deadline. How is it possible to transform stat driven players into team first type players in the NBA? Once a stat driven contract focused player gets the blessing of the owner, I do not think any coach can change them. Point one relating to Andre Drummond is what he is bragging about over the summer. Instead of providing his team with a strong smart defensive stopper in the paint and amazing defensive rebounder, our All Star is looking to pad his stats by promising to shoot 3s next season. Now he can stand outside the 3 point line more so he will not be able to get his usual number of offensive rebounds. Offensive rebounding is where AD picks up those big stats in the rebounding category. Now AD will show off his amazing 6-8 foot baseline hook shot and then trot out to Charlie V's old spot beyond the 3 point line. Maybe he can watch old films of Charlie walking up the court in transition getting his feet set beyond the 3 point line with his hands up ready for the pass.

Reggie Jackson will have a tantrum in training camp if Casey decides to run plays using Blake as point forward. Maybe Blake will go to the coach and say he doesn't want to ruffle any feathers so might beg Casey to allow Reggie to run the team in the half court offense. After all Blake has a massive guaranteed contract that doesn't say anything about him stepping up to become a real team leader and knock out both AD and RJ from the Co-Captain positions as designated by Tom Gores. Maybe Tom will have a meeting after the first practice and lay down the law as to who his Captains will be again. Casey can then collect his pay check and play the politically correct game like SVG did. Don't confront AD and RJ. Let them play their own individual games.

Just how much power does the head coach really have in this Piston organization? Will Casey be able to actually coach the team? Or like SVG's stint, will the highest paid players be allowed to do their own thing which will have nothing to do with finding a way to win basketball games. Casey has a sweet contract. He can just play along like SVG did and collect the money. Or he can create specific roles for each player on the team and if they deviate from their assigned roles, send them to the end of the bench regardless of how much money they are making. Both AD and RJ are part time defenders. Casey isn't used to players like that. He will see the periodic slacking where the feet are planted as if in cement while opposing players drive around them after they reach with the arms. Dead give away of a player who could give a crap about winning games are the "Reachers". My old coach used to ridicule "Reachers" in practice and at timeouts during games. I am sure both RJ and AD have had many coaches beg them to get in good enough physical condition to end the "reaching". Watch for this bad habit with our two star players this coming season. If you attend the games, yell at them and embarrass them when they do it. If you do that it is a sign that you just don't really give a crap about being on a winning team. Over the last two years it has been clear to me that AD is very content to be on a losing team as long as he gets picked for the All Star game. As RJ's contract will be impossible to move, perhaps even Tom Gores will be ready to throw in the towel and get at least a high draft pick for AD in a trade before the deadline. I really don't believe there is a high demand for either player right now by other NBA teams especially when they evaluated their impact on the Pistons and their individual contracts. Go ahead and shoot that long ball AD. Have fun who cares. It doesn't matter that AD can't effectively shoot a 4 foot jump shot. I am sure Casey will be very happy to see AD launch that new 3 pointer in crunch time.

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Too Funny

Post  WTF on Sat Aug 04, 2018 10:50 am

Sparma wrote:I'm guessing he's wrong about the .4, at least, but there you have it.

I can't access Kevin Pelton's ESPN story directly, but according to DBB, he projected 39 wins for us last year, which would have been right on the button.

That does come in as a #8 playoff slot for the coming season by Pelton's estimates.

For what it's worth, I'd see Vince Ellis's earlier talk of 44-45 wins as a more reasonable expectation.

So did I and I'm not a stats guru imagine that  facepalm
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ESPN's "stats guru" projection: 39.4 wins

Post  Sparma on Sat Aug 04, 2018 9:58 am

I'm guessing he's wrong about the .4, at least, but there you have it.

I can't access Kevin Pelton's ESPN story directly, but according to DBB, he projected 39 wins for us last year, which would have been right on the button.

That does come in as a #8 playoff slot for the coming season by Pelton's estimates.

For what it's worth, I'd see Vince Ellis's earlier talk of 44-45 wins as a more reasonable expectation.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:58 pm

Murph wrote:Don, I'm not sure about Buycks.  I liked his story, and his hustle, but I didn't really like his game.  His defense was non-existent, and he tended to be another ball dominant PG.  He was like a worse version of Ish Smith.

I really liked the way Bruce Brown played in summer league.  I'm probably kidding myself, but the guy could do it all...play defense, make plays, score, rebound, pass.  I know it was only summer league, but he looked like a poor man's Russell Westbrook...a Russell Westbrook who actually passed the ball.

Khyri Thomas was defensive player of the year in his conference wasn't he? Thought Thomas was a combo guard who might fight for time at point guard too. I see he is listed as a 2. Can't find where he played in the Summer League competition. Assume he was injured but can find nothing as to his current health status.

Hope you are right about Brown Murph. Saw him play one time in summer league. Strong body, quick and smart too. He did give up the ball to the open teammates and played defense strong in the time I saw him play. I will pull for anyone who plays the right way with maximum effort. Maybe that is what this management team was looking for more than anything else. Playing time for both players might depend on the strategy Casey selects with the 2nd unit. Will they renew the up tempo style that Ish Smith brings while allowing opponents to score at will or will Casey decide he wants to play slower more deliberate on offense while kicking ass and taking names on the defensive end? Lower point guard turnovers might be on Casey's list as a high priority.

I hope to see Griffin at point forward organizing the offense with better floor spacing with RJ shooting the lights out and driving off the wings and baseline. But can he focus knowing he will have to pay $258K/M in child support? Anything is possible in the California court system these days. Maybe Blake will be placed in a mental institution unable to cope with life now. If not then I hope BG will just tune out everything and lead the Pistons with his basketball IQ and talent. But wherever RJ plays this coming season he must show that he can defend someone of starting caliber or he will have to adjust to coming off the bench and compete with Brown, Thomas and Smith for playing time. I think Reggie has fallen that far based on his last two seasons where injuries and cardio issues held him back. Casey has to be ready for anything relating to making whatever adjustments he needs to make based on player health and abilities. Good coaching staff with a smart head coach can do what SVG found impossible.

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Buycks

Post  Murph on Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:54 am

Don, I'm not sure about Buycks. I liked his story, and his hustle, but I didn't really like his game. His defense was non-existent, and he tended to be another ball dominant PG. He was like a worse version of Ish Smith.

I really liked the way Bruce Brown played in summer league. I'm probably kidding myself, but the guy could do it all...play defense, make plays, score, rebound, pass. I know it was only summer league, but he looked like a poor man's Russell Westbrook...a Russell Westbrook who actually passed the ball.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:32 pm

Murph wrote:
cool breeze wrote:
Murph I think the main reason why SVG played Leuer at center was the fact that he had difficulty defending quick or bigger power forwards. SVG had to know he made a huge mistake signing leuer before doing his homework ( Leuer played horribly for Phoenix and was not part of their future plans at any price) after Leuer went on a long streak of being unable to hit the 3 point shot. So what could he do but try Leuer at back up center? How could SVG sit Leuer on the bench like the Suns coach did the previous season? Leuer did not sit on the bench for Phoenix.  Leuer played 19 minutes a game for Phoenix 3 years ago, which is exactly what we need out of him this year.  Also, Leuer actually started 27 games for Phoenix, which we hopefully wont need him to do this season, if Griffin stays healthy, which is a must.I am talking about two seasons ago when Leuer was perfectly healthy not last season. What SVG was criminal to me because he kept better more effective players on the bench only because of Leuer's big contract.    After Leuer got hurt, SVG played Eric Moreland extensively at reserve center. Then in the last game of the season against Orlando, SVG tried Leuer at both center and power forward and he got his butt kicked at both positions. Who can forget Arron Gordon making jump shots over Leuer and also beating him off the dribble all night long? Don, you make this mistake all the time.  If you don't like a player, you pick the worst game of the season, or the worst play of the season, and then you harp on that as proof that a player is lousy.  Just because Leuer was beaten badly by Aaron Gordon in one game, doesn't make Leuer a bust.  Another example that you harp on is when Whiteside beat Drummond for an offensive rebound.  Just because Whiteside, who is a great rebounder himself, beat Drummond on one play, doesn't mean Drummond is a bad rebounder or can't box out.  It was one play!SVG stood for no accountability for high contract players. Maybe that is the way it is in the NBA but for sure many old Piston fans wanted SVG fired for that bad habit.  I agree with you here.  GM's have a tendency to sign players to bad contracts, and then the coaches play the players to try to justify the bad contracts.  In this case, the GM and coach was the same person.  But the practice is absurd. He was not a coach. SVG was a politically correct man who sucked up to all Piston players who made a lot of money. He yelled at the guys on the bench who were waiting their turn that never came with him as head coach. I thought SVG would be great when he was hired but soon realized he was a big part of the problem.  I never thought SVG would be great.  I thought he was a terrible hire from day one, because of the way he ruined Orlando.  That was another issue I got right. Will the time ever come when a NBA head coach will do the right thing when their highest paid players are clearly slacking with their effort? We fans are the fools if we bother to watch this nonsense unless we just like going to the games to socialize with pretty women. I have a friend who does that.

I stand corrected Murph relating to playing time Leuer had at Phoenix before SVG signed him to that bogus contract. My friend who has season tickets for Suns games went on a rant a few weeks ago about How he hated the way Leuer played and his thoughts were that Leuer was the odd man out in his contract year with the Suns. I will give him credit for how he started playing early in his first season with Detroit. He did hit his share of 3 pointers but as the season wore on he faded like many of his teammates. My question still is why Leuer and how did they come to that crazy number relating to his $10/mil contract and the amount of years? Based on his overall play with the Suns, Leuer should have commanded perhaps a $3Mil contract over two years. Maybe it is all guess work on the part of a lot of GMs but this signing to me showed how incompetent both SVG and Mr. B. were at the time.

At any rate thanks for your comments. What do you think about our two 2nd round draft picks? Based on their summer league play, how can anyone say they are better players than Buycks? Buycks for sure is a better offensive player. I like the way both rookies play on the defensive end though. At least they will cause some headaches for RJ and IS in training camp. Maybe this coach just wanted to add toughness to the roster. Both are hard nosed players who will fight for playing time. Still I believe there were better players available who were not drafted. Will give the new front office a break on this last draft but hope for better results next summer. Big things might happen before the trade deadline if things play out the same way as last season. Casey is going to figure out who he wants to coach pretty quickly and my best guess is that the front office will listen to what he says. It is a good thing that the Pistons do not have all their eggs in one basket like they did with SVG making all of the decisions on the future of our Pistons.

One final thought before training camp begins. BG has to be in great shape and prepared to become the Pistons team leader. The offense has to flow through him and he has to set the tone in the paint on defense. That is going to be a big job but I think he knows what he needs to do if he wants to play on a team that has potential to make the playoffs. If BG directs the offense and RJ can play off the ball and score the Pistons can have an entirely different look that will cause opposing players to work harder on defense then they did when RJ and IS were just pounding the ball trying to create offense. At least I will enjoy watching the team more if this happens and the Pistons finally create an identity opposite of what they have had in the recent past.

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Christmas Comes Early

Post  Murph on Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:51 am

Congrats to Johnny Hamilton for signing a partially guaranteed contract.  Hopefully, he plays well in Grand Rapids, signs a two way contract, and sticks around until next season to become the 2nd or 3rd string center for the Pistons.


The other guy the Pistons picked-up that has potential is Keenan Evans, an undrafted, 4 year, 6'3 PG out of Texas Tech.  He signed a two way contract, but with the log jam the Pistons have at the guard positions, he probably will not see any minutes in the NBA this season.

If he plays well in the G-League, I wouldn't mind seeing Evans make the roster next year as the Pistons 3rd string PG, behind RJ and Bruce Brown, once Calderon and Ish Smith move on.


I love these undrafted, unappreciated players that sign cheap contracts and hustle their asses off. Eric Moreland was one of those.
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Seriously Oracle

Post  WTF on Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:19 am

Oracle wrote:So every team should judge their players this way? YES

This line of thinking leaves out allowing teams to grow, learn and get better. This line of thinking would have broken up the Bad Boys, dumped Zeke for passing the ball to Bird and losing, yet again! This line of thinking wouldn't have applied

You learn from mistakes, the main criteria is "Are we getting better, and at a good enough rate to compete". NO

The goal is to be able to compete for a championship, once there, you want to win! Correct and where are we in relation to road map?
WTF wrote:Everyone is still skating and skirting around the answer to my question.  Maybe I needed to ask it a little different or in a series of questions. So let me try it again this way. Really they're simple yes or no questions with the exception of question #1 in which I hope the answer for everyone is to win a freaking title oppose to answering Gore wants to make a profit selling BS to fans. 

1. Why are they being paid million? 

2. What service should be expected ie.  Winning Titles or struggling for an 8th seed?

3. Are we getting the best bang for the dollar?  

4. Does the answer to question #3 make you happy.

I just can't get a straight answer can I ?  facepalm 

Rest assure I could go into full detail why bringing up Zeke and the Bad Boys has nothing to do with what I asked in fact why even bring them up.  That's a different place and time, I'm talking about the right now with this group of players in this current NBA environment I made no mention of how this needed to be applied Zeke.  

The questions I asked would've never been required with either Championship Team hell we wouldn't have asked these questions about the Teal Team but they certainly apply to this current group.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:39 am

cool breeze wrote:
Murph I think the main reason why SVG played Leuer at center was the fact that he had difficulty defending quick or bigger power forwards. SVG had to know he made a huge mistake signing leuer before doing his homework ( Leuer played horribly for Phoenix and was not part of their future plans at any price) after Leuer went on a long streak of being unable to hit the 3 point shot. So what could he do but try Leuer at back up center? How could SVG sit Leuer on the bench like the Suns coach did the previous season? Leuer did not sit on the bench for Phoenix.  Leuer played 19 minutes a game for Phoenix 3 years ago, which is exactly what we need out of him this year.  Also, Leuer actually started 27 games for Phoenix, which we hopefully wont need him to do this season, if Griffin stays healthy, which is a must.I am talking about two seasons ago when Leuer was perfectly healthy not last season. What SVG was criminal to me because he kept better more effective players on the bench only because of Leuer's big contract.    After Leuer got hurt, SVG played Eric Moreland extensively at reserve center. Then in the last game of the season against Orlando, SVG tried Leuer at both center and power forward and he got his butt kicked at both positions. Who can forget Arron Gordon making jump shots over Leuer and also beating him off the dribble all night long? Don, you make this mistake all the time.  If you don't like a player, you pick the worst game of the season, or the worst play of the season, and then you harp on that as proof that a player is lousy.  Just because Leuer was beaten badly by Aaron Gordon in one game, doesn't make Leuer a bust.  Another example that you harp on is when Whiteside beat Drummond for an offensive rebound.  Just because Whiteside, who is a great rebounder himself, beat Drummond on one play, doesn't mean Drummond is a bad rebounder or can't box out.  It was one play!SVG stood for no accountability for high contract players. Maybe that is the way it is in the NBA but for sure many old Piston fans wanted SVG fired for that bad habit.  I agree with you here.  GM's have a tendency to sign players to bad contracts, and then the coaches play the players to try to justify the bad contracts.  In this case, the GM and coach was the same person.  But the practice is absurd. He was not a coach. SVG was a politically correct man who sucked up to all Piston players who made a lot of money. He yelled at the guys on the bench who were waiting their turn that never came with him as head coach. I thought SVG would be great when he was hired but soon realized he was a big part of the problem.  I never thought SVG would be great.  I thought he was a terrible hire from day one, because of the way he ruined Orlando.  That was another issue I got right. Will the time ever come when a NBA head coach will do the right thing when their highest paid players are clearly slacking with their effort? We fans are the fools if we bother to watch this nonsense unless we just like going to the games to socialize with pretty women. I have a friend who does that.
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Wow

Post  Oracle on Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:22 pm

So every team should judge their players this way?

This line of thinking leaves out allowing teams to grow, learn and get better. This line of thinking would have broken up the Bad Boys, dumped Zeke for passing the ball to Bird and losing, yet again!

You learn from mistakes, the main criteria is "Are we getting better, and at a good enough rate to compete".

The goal is to be able to compete for a championship, once there, you want to win!
WTF wrote:Everyone is still skating and skirting around the answer to my question.  Maybe I needed to ask it a little different or in a series of questions. So let me try it again this way. Really they're simple yes or no questions with the exception of question #1 in which I hope the answer for everyone is to win a freaking title oppose to answering Gore wants to make a profit selling BS to fans. 

1. Why are they being paid million? 

2. What service should be expected ie.  Winning Titles or struggling for an 8th seed?

3. Are we getting the best bang for the dollar?  

4. Does the answer to question #3 make you happy.
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So many things incorrect, so little time...

Post  Oracle on Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:17 pm

cool breeze wrote:Bringing up the money factor is important when speaking of AD and RJ. Some fans keep saying Johnson was a lottery pick and somehow is being paid way too much(Don, that's so far from the truth I can't believe you had the nerve to post it! Show me ONE, not two or three, but any single poster on this board that has even brought up Stanley's salary, let alone called it high!). Where was he drafted? Was he in the top 3 or 5? When was the last time the Pistons have really had a lottery pick meaning they were the top players in the country at draft time. If you are picked at 7 or 8 GMs have questions about their abilities so they don't pick them if they are selecting in the top 5. But leave that aside, Johnson is not a highly paid player at all. Most likely he will be playing elsewhere after this season if he isn't traded because he is tired of playing with AD and RJ who are slackers on defense. Free agents who are worth their salt do not want to play with AD or RJ for that same reason. Also, all good players consider the basketball IQ of the players on all teams before they sign a new contract.

The new arena is half empty on most nights is because the Pistons do not win enough meaningful games(Check your facts, the Pistons attendance was the highest since the decline of the 2004 team.). The team leaders for the past few years have been RJ and AD. Former Piston fans connect those two players as being the cause of the Pistons recent downfall. Maybe that isn't true at all but that is what everyone I talk to who used to be huge Piston fans who live in Michigan say to me. They don't really enjoy watching or pulling for AD and RJ because they don't respect them as real team orientated winning caliber players. Everyone with the exception of forum writers have come to the conclusion that both players are only interested in getting their fat pay checks and promoting their individual stats while looking to the future contract season. We have all seen other teams come to the Palace in t he old days with players like AD and RJ. We loved watching our smart dedicated team orientated players beat them easily knowing that both give half an effort on defense or forget the basic fundamentals of the game. I just do not enjoy watching either AD or RJ play basketball(You also don't like being straight about these players either. You could make an argument that Andre is over paid, but Reggie? You oddly call FACTS statistics, but look up what guards make in this league before making these wild accusations). It is insulting to everything I respect about the game. There are moments where I see both of them digging down and playing hard at something other than scoring but the moments are too few for me to actually pull for them to be successful players.

It actually amazes me when I read posts from fans who provide stats trying to convince skeptical fans that the Pistons really have the right players who can win something meaningful(Don, FACTS are provided, not to convince anyone of anything except those with weak minds who can't read them without thinking they're a conspiracy to do something or another, that isn't you is it?). I wish both AD and RJ well though because both are good men off the court. That counts too. It is just when they play basketball that I lose respect especially when I see grown men who call themselves professional basketball players reaching instead of moving their feet allowing their assigned man to get a layup as they anticipate both will start reaching due to their long history of being reachers. You sit on the bench as a college player when you show the coach that you are not moving your feet on defense. But then AD is working on his 3 point shot. If he makes a few of them some fans will really get excited. It is the small things great players do that makes the difference between winning and losing. It is time for the Pistons to have a fire sale and start over by getting at least 2 top 5 picks in the coming drafts. Instead this owner loves to give up his first round draft picks. Who does that except Tom Gores?
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Bottomline Is......

Post  WTF on Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:18 pm

Everyone is still skating and skirting around the answer to my question.  Maybe I needed to ask it a little different or in a series of questions. So let me try it again this way. Really they're simple yes or no questions with the exception of question #1 in which I hope the answer for everyone is to win a freaking title oppose to answering Gore wants to make a profit selling BS to fans. 

1. Why are they being paid million? 

2. What service should be expected ie.  Winning Titles or struggling for an 8th seed?

3. Are we getting the best bang for the dollar?  

4. Does the answer to question #3 make you happy.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:47 pm

Murph wrote:Again, I am not a big Jon Leuer fan, and hate to defend him.  But part of the problem last year was that for some reason SVG was playing Leuer out of position at the stretch 5.  Leuer is by no stretch of the imagination a center.  He's 6'10 and 225, and is not overly physical, active or athletic.  

So when Leuer got hurt, Eric Moreland came in and thoroughly out-played Leuer at the reserve center spot, which is understandable.  After all, Moreland is a center; Leuer is not.  There is only one position on the basketball court that Leuer can play, and that's PF.  Why SVG thought he could play center is beyond me.  That was just one more complete and total mental meltdown on SVG's part.

So again, my purpose here is not to hype Leuer.  He is an over-paid, mediocre PF.  However, if he is played at the PF position, and not as a center, he is at least mediocre and not terrible.

And if we have any hope of winning 50 or more games and making it to the playoffs this season, Leuer is going to have to play a lot of serviceable minutes.  Because of his injury history, I am hoping Casey limits BG's minutes to about 28-30 minutes a game in an effort to keep him healthy.  That means Leuer is going to have to stay healthy and play 18-20 minutes a game off the bench at PF, because Henry Ellenson is a bust.

We need Leuer to play 20 mpg off the bench at PF, the way he played for the Pistons two years ago.

Murph I think the main reason why SVG played Leuer at center was the fact that he had difficulty defending quick or bigger power forwards. SVG had to know he made a huge mistake signing leuer before doing his homework ( Leuer played horribly for Phoenix and was not part of their future plans at any price) after Leuer went on a long streak of being unable to hit the 3 point shot. So what could he do but try Leuer at back up center? How could SVG sit Leuer on the bench like the Suns coach did the previous season? I am talking about two seasons ago when Leuer was perfectly healthy not last season. What SVG was criminal to me because he kept better more effective players on the bench only because of Leuer's big contract. Then in the last game of the season against Orlando, SVG tried Leuer at both center and power forward and he got his butt kicked at both positions. Who can forget Arron Gordon making jump shots over Leuer and also beating him off the dribble all night long? SVG stood for no accountability for high contract players. Maybe that is the way it is in the NBA but for sure many old Piston fans wanted SVG fired for that bad habit. He was not a coach. SVG was a politically correct man who sucked up to all Piston players who made a lot of money. He yelled at the guys on the bench who were waiting their turn that never came with him as head coach. I thought SVG would be great when he was hired but soon realized he was a big part of the problem. Will the time ever come when a NBA head coach will do the right thing when their highest paid players are clearly slacking with their effort? We fans are the fools if we bother to watch this nonsense unless we just like going to the games to socialize with pretty women. I have a friend who does that.

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The reason why some Piston fans who I don't write on this forum has nothing to do with the amount of money they make as to why they wish they were on another team

Post  cool breeze on Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:27 pm

Bringing up the money factor is important when speaking of AD and RJ. Some fans keep saying Johnson was a lottery pick and somehow is being paid way too much. Where was he drafted? Was he in the top 3 or 5? When was the last time the Pistons have really had a lottery pick meaning they were the top players in the country at draft time. If you are picked at 7 or 8 GMs have questions about their abilities so they don't pick them if they are selecting in the top 5. But leave that aside, Johnson is not a highly paid player at all. Most likely he will be playing elsewhere after this season if he isn't traded because he is tired of playing with AD and RJ who are slackers on defense. Free agents who are worth their salt do not want to play with AD or RJ for that same reason. Also, all good players consider the basketball IQ of the players on all teams before they sign a new contract.

The new arena is half empty on most nights is because the Pistons do not win enough meaningful games. The team leaders for the past few years have been RJ and AD. Former Piston fans connect those two players as being the cause of the Pistons recent downfall. Maybe that isn't true at all but that is what everyone I talk to who used to be huge Piston fans who live in Michigan say to me. They don't really enjoy watching or pulling for AD and RJ because they don't respect them as real team orientated winning caliber players. Everyone with the exception of forum writers have come to the conclusion that both players are only interested in getting their fat pay checks and promoting their individual stats while looking to the future contract season. We have all seen other teams come to the Palace in t he old days with players like AD and RJ. We loved watching our smart dedicated team orientated players beat them easily knowing that both give half an effort on defense or forget the basic fundamentals of the game. I just do not enjoy watching either AD or RJ play basketball. It is insulting to everything I respect about the game. There are moments where I see both of them digging down and playing hard at something other than scoring but the moments are too few for me to actually pull for them to be successful players.

It actually amazes me when I read posts from fans who provide stats trying to convince skeptical fans that the Pistons really have the right players who can win something meaningful. I wish both AD and RJ well though because both are good men off the court. That counts too. It is just when they play basketball that I lose respect especially when I see grown men who call themselves professional basketball players reaching instead of moving their feet allowing their assigned man to get a layup as they anticipate both will start reaching due to their long history of being reachers. You sit on the bench as a college player when you show the coach that you are not moving your feet on defense. But then AD is working on his 3 point shot. If he makes a few of them some fans will really get excited. It is the small things great players do that makes the difference between winning and losing. It is time for the Pistons to have a fire sale and start over by getting at least 2 top 5 picks in the coming drafts. Instead this owner loves to give up his first round draft picks. Who does that except Tom Gores?

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Sorry For The Abuse

Post  WTF on Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:03 am

Oracle wrote:
Wise wrote:I'll ask it one more time Why are we paying BG, AD and RJ all this $$$ if the expectations are as low as they are?
The simple answer is that somebody thought they were either worth it now, or would be in the future. BTW, RJ doesn't make jack crap, I wish people would stop using that phony argument.

However, EVERYTHING is relative. Our payroll is high, not only because of these guys, but the MASSIVE amount we're paying scrubs to play, or in the case of Josh Smith, not to play.

So how overpaid are these guys? Blake certainly is up there, but Andre is tied for #20 on the list. Unfortunately, he's not as good as the guys he's tied with(Beal, Whiteside & Davis), IMO, but none of them meet your standards anyway, so there's that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/nba-highest-paid-players-2017-10#t20-bradley-beal-238-million-7 wrote:DeMar DeRozan — $27.7 million. ...
James Harden — $28.3 million. ...
Kyle Lowry — $28.7 million. ...
Blake Griffin — $29.5 million. ...
Gordon Hayward — $29.7 million. ...
Paul Millsap — $30.8 million. ...
LeBron James — $33.3 million. ...
Stephen Curry — $34.7 million
All I'm saying is that just because you happened to wake up after nearly 10 years of sleeping and decide you need to change the way you view the Pistons, is no reason to call us out for having a different view... you're abusing us  lol 

We're starting the MeThree movement on your arse!

That would be the simple answers to the question but I think everyone knows what I'm really asking.  Are they paying these salaries in hopes of a title in return?   I'm not really concern with fair market value because I'm of the belief that mostly all of them are over paid but if they were paid only a dollar for their services to go win a championship they're not living up to it.   

I can't imagine being an owner paying these contracts without having expectation of winning a championship that's really is the gest of my feeling on expectations in my post and yes I think it should be the expectations of everyone.  Since when did we start applauding failure and being okay with second place so easily.
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